Welcome to Voices of Inspiration. I'm your host, amelia Olde, and today you're in for a captivating conversation with Kamal X, a self-taught documentary photographer based in Brooklyn, new York. Kamal's journey is a testament to the power of storytelling through the lens of a camera. In 2015, kamal made a life-altering decision to travel the world, dedicating this adventure to his best friend, who lost his battle to colon cancer. This personal commitment ignited his creative spirit, shaping his unique style of revealing the hidden narratives of humanity, often overlooked.
Amelia:Kamal gained significant recognition in 2020 during the Black Lives Matter protest in Oakland, california and Washington DC. His impactful images were featured in the New York Times and a series of beautiful Oakland DC earned him second place in lens cultures black and white photography awards. In 2021, kamal was prominently featured in Apple's Hometown campaign celebrating black photographers across America. He also self-published his debut book, a Quest Supreme, chronicling five years of travel to over 40 countries in search of inner peace. Stay tuned for Kamal's upcoming release, Black Astronaut on October 24, 2023, a visual masterpiece capturing a nationwide revolution sparked by the pandemic and George Floyd's tragic passing. Join me as we explore Kamal's remarkable journey in the powerful stories he's captured through his lens. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really grateful that you took time out of your busy schedule to be with me and to share your story and to talk about your journey.
Kamal:Yeah, I'm definitely so thankful to be here, excited, inspired even, because I think it's just beautiful connecting with new people and having meaningful conversation, because you, just you, really you know we're creating right now and you never know where it's going to go, but I really feel like something amazing and beautiful is going to happen. You know, I agree. Thank you so much.
Amelia:So your journey into photography started as a tribute to your late friend. Can you tell us more about how that decision unfolded and how it shaped your creative path? Yeah, it was very.
Kamal:See, I lost. My best friend Drew. We were, I think, 26. I'm 37 now and he he passed away from colon cancer.
Kamal:And I remember when that, during this whole process to chemo and everything, it was such a we didn't understand what any of it really meant. You know, at that age it was just like you'll be fine, like being supportive and being great friends in the way we could, but we didn't know the severity, we didn't think he would pass away, basically. So I remember it was a Thanksgiving and something made me come early. I was living in LA and he's in New Jersey. Something made me come back early. Like I was just like let me just spend some extra time. I didn't even know he was in the hospital. And I got there and he was in the hospital and he was. When I went to see him he looked you know nothing like who I, you know, used to seeing and I realized immediately how serious this was. But at the same time I still didn't think you know, I'm pulling from the pull through, you know.
Kamal:So when he unfortunately, you know, transitioned, my world completely collapsed and at that point I was a life coach and a personal trainer living in LA, I was working at Equinox actually, and I had my own little thing on the side I was doing and I remember I just literally dropped everything. I said I had nothing to give to anyone. This was such a catastrophic experience and it was so weird because I didn't even know how to feel about it. Like you watch movies, you hear about things, you see other people, but I guess at that age that level of that type of situation is just such a even a best friend at that, you know, not an associate or so, but a best close friend. I remember I didn't know how to navigate it. So I'm happy that I made the choice to just drop everything, because I just I don't know what else I would have done and what I did was he loved that I was a free person. So for him he was actually claustrophobic, is the funniest person I've ever met in my life. And he was claustrophobic, couldn't get on elevators. It was such a thing. When we went to clubs it was so funny but like no planes, nothing, you know. So I was at that point I lived in LA. I moved to Atlanta before, so he looked at me as like this freedom person like yo, I can't believe that you just get up and go and find a place and find a job. It was just such a he really loved that about me and to me it was just me being normal, fast forward.
Kamal:When that, when that happened, I said what can I do for my brother that he liked about me that I can just push, at times a thousand, and it was travel. So at that point I just decided to get a bag go to and I never backpacked. I never knew anyone in my family that did it. It wasn't like my friends. This is a completely foreign concept to go backpacking.
Kamal:And I went to Cambodia, thailand and Laos for 40 days and life shifting experience, to say the least, extremely uncomfortable. Didn't know what I was doing. I remember I came out there with like so much luggage. It was crazy, like I had this big, big bag and when I was with this group there was like hey man, how are you going to like get new stuff? It was like, and I had like all my gear, sneakers. I was. I didn't know how to be a traveler, you know, I was dressing like the way where I'm from and it was a life shifting experience and I grew so much and I became like I just kept going and that one trip ended up being off and on, traveling for five years to over 40 different countries.
Kamal:And between that time I was, I think, I was in Ecuador and I met a new friend named Anna and we were sleeping on a volcano and what was happened? And we were taking pictures of the erupting volcano that was across from us or something like that, and I was taking a picture with a 4S and she was like. She asked her what do you shoot with? Because she assumed I had another camera in my bag. I said this, this little 4S. And she had a real DSLR. So she's looking at me like uh, okay, you're going to have to change that around. You've been traveling the world, you've seen all these countries, you're seeing this. And then she took one. She had a tripod and everything. She was with another friend named Miles. They both were photographers and they showed me the picture from. It was like Canon 6D and I remember I was like whoa. She was like, yeah, this is full frame, like oh. So I remember looking at the camera like that picture versus my picture was whoa.
Kamal:So I immediately brought a Nikon D33, 3300, I think it's called and started shooting and that started to just taking pictures as I was traveling, I was finding healing, I was finding purpose. I still, you know, I'm trying to deal with the grief, and I was like getting it out through experiences and meeting people and getting to know myself on a different level, and all this was happening with a camera in my hand, so it kind of like naturally came out of, not out of nowhere, but it was very unexpected. It was very unexpected and people started giving me compliments like your photography is pretty good. I'm like, ah, you know, I'm thinking Instagram, algorithm stuff. I'm not thinking, oh, I'm an artist, I'm just like a person trying to, you know, get sponsors and things of that nature, and I remember it was a friend of mine when I was living in New York.
Kamal:She saw my place. She was like, yo, you're an artist, and I was like I accepted it. She was a teacher, and I was like you know what? Maybe there's something too. This people keep bringing it up, and I just kind of like leaned in and things started opening up. It wasn't easy, though, but I, I it was like it gave travel purpose, it gave the journey. I was on purpose and I knew I was seeing things that most people don't see, and it gave me, it gave me a amazing feeling to be able to bring people into my world Cause that like, if I say I've been to 40, 50 countries, like that's, I appreciate that, but a person that doesn't, they're just like oh, what does it mean if I can't show you? So for me, having that medium has always been a great way of expression and it's grown into a beautiful thing, and why we're here today you know that's so incredible.
Amelia:One thing I want to say back to about your friend is I think I want to commend you for being there for your friend, because my husband and I we we're on the board of a nonprofit Cancer for College and they give college scholarships to cancer survivors and a lot of the scholars that we talked to and that we've talked over the years. One of the things that they say is when they were diagnosed with cancer, you know, whatever age they were, friends tend to kind of fall off the radar. Friends kind of disappear, not because they don't care, but because they don't know how to deal with it. They don't know how to support them, they don't understand it, and so the easiest way for them is to kind of just like you know, close off and not be there, and so I really commend you for being there.
Amelia:I think that that is an incredibly important you know, as a self taught photographer, what have been some of the challenges or what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way of learning photography.
Kamal:Um, I would say I think it's a challenge for anybody, but I think it's finding your own voice, finding what you really care about. There's a couple photographers I remember like when you start out, you like taking pictures of everything, right, and then you don't really Upload much of it, are you upload a bunch of it and it doesn't. It's not good enough to show anybody, so it's taking up memory. And I remember this photographer was like why are you taking pictures of things that don't move you? It's like, hmm, that's interesting things that move me. So like I kind of, as I started going to things that moved me, it kind of pushed me into the space of, you know, documentary style street photography.
Kamal:Now, the challenge with that is that on Instagram and social media, which is where I kind of was just trying all this stuff out, which is most, all most creatives use that medium. That's not with the algorithm really likes, you know, like it's more about. Take a picture of you in front of Eiffel Tower wearing a nice outfit, go eating at a restaurant, but in terms of taking street photography showing what you're seeing and just being more, I would say, artistic, I would say that doesn't normally correlate. You know, if I do a picture of me, I Get a bunch of you know, and it feels good. But then when you put that other thing, that's what you really like, what you saw, it's not a lot, it's a lot of crickets off to times and, I think, learning. Thankfully, I kept researching and researching and finding older not older, but like more experienced photographers and seeing, like, the difference between and there's a difference between, let me say, a social media so yeah, social media photographer, which is no shade or hate on that versus someone that's like in the industry Photography right, there's two different worlds. They don't really collide the way people think. And once I realized that, I was like Okay, you're not, this isn't you. This space on Instagram just doesn't fit your aesthetic.
Kamal:And when I shifted it, it again help me find my voice. And just choosing to stick to my guns. Because when you don't have a Class or school, when you have Classmates and people can like you can talk to about these things, you're really in the dark room, like, you're really like is this good, is it right? Do I know what I'm doing when I'm talking? And especially in the beginning, when I was meeting photographers, they would talk to me with language I didn't understand. Like what do you shoot with? I was like what, what am I supposed to say when you say that to me? I don't even know what that means now.
Kamal:Obviously I'm well more versed in it, but I would say finding voice and and doing it was difficult. But I appreciate it was doing the work, meaning Learning all the information, like getting like I have over 80 photography books, like I started watching all these documentaries and like just interviews and just like even directors and seeing how to create movies and Luckily I have always loved Film. I just didn't realize it was my gift. Like, even though becoming a photographer was a surprise, I've always kind of gravitated towards cameras, keeping memories. I watch a lot of movies, so I guess it was kind of always there and it just like the roads collided in a great way.
Kamal:But, um, yeah, I would say just learning it on my own and being confident and being, but it's also, it was difficult, but it also gave me, I think, an edge because I didn't go through Then the normal route. I would say I kind of have learned to have a much thicker skin. I've learned to be very like this, what I feel, that's what I want to do. I'm gonna do it like whereas I think sometimes Having so many people to compare yourself to can kind of limit you because you won't kind of think for yourself Sometimes in terms of finding your own way, you know. So it's been difficult, but it's been beautiful. At the same time. I would say yeah.
Amelia:I mean, I think that that is. I mean, you're right on point with that Because social media, we see this person and we see that person and we're like, oh well, they're doing it that way. And they're doing it that way. Maybe that's what I need to do, because they're successful, and maybe I need to be just like them and we lose ourselves and we lose our own voice Along the way. So I mean you're right on point with that. How do you approach the process of storytelling through through your photography?
Kamal:doing. Oh, I don't know, it's actually a pretty heavy time. It's a probably more complicated like. It's Like I don't take pictures it's weird to say this, but like I don't take pictures of anything I haven't seen before. Like it's, it's a process. It's like if I'm feeling something, it like black astronauts, the book is coming out right. So obviously that's a little different.
Kamal:Because when George Floyd passed away at Montarbery the pandemic, women's rights, trump, all that was happening Before that I was sitting looking, learning about photography, seeing what happened in like the 70s, the 60s, the 80s, going through photography books. Eli read all types of photographers, that especially civil rights movement million man in March, and I'm just thinking to myself, while I would never get that opportunity, like what was it? It had to been. It sucked to be having those struggles, but to be a photographer during that time, to be able to take those photos like America doesn't do that anymore Like in terms of, from a photography standpoint. So in my mind, the intentions been there, like I hope something. You don't want it to be bad, but you're like I'm a photographer and I want to document something that really matters To the, to our country, in our history. And so when it.
Kamal:When that all happened, I knew I had to call. I knew this was like I'm ready. Like you know, there wasn't a oh, let's just do this. I was. I knew this is, this is a moment that I need to take seriously. I knew that I wanted to make something of this that matters to myself, my friends, my family and, hopefully, you know, other people, and so I think the the process is a very well Thought. Like the next project I'm working on is another one that I've been Just talking about with friends, and it comes like through me, versus it being like, oh, that's interesting, I want to do it. It's like a slow process and that way I'm more emotionally connected to the work, and I think when you're more emotionally connected to what you're shooting, it shows in the in the photography, versus if you're just taking pictures of things. It's like you might be really good at photography, so maybe like you're artistically amazing, but like the feeling you might miss, you know, and so that's kind of my, my process in terms of yeah.
Amelia:And the focus of your photography is on revealing hidden truths of humanity. Can you share an example of a story that you've captured that really Resonates with you in this regard?
Kamal:Well, it's funny because we're kind of talking about it one and a half and it's in this, the, the project, the black astronaut project. It's um. There's a photo where it's a woman in an astronaut suit. She's like been back, her hair is going down and she's looking to the sky and in the back it has a word saying don't be a slave to the algorithm. And within that photo there's also, if you look closely, there's going to, there's a lot of photos of iPhone. What X is on them, like just crossing them out, and the whole idea is like when I was taking those pictures and just like all throughout America, when America was locked down, I was risking it all, literally before we had the vaccine, before we knew how dangerous the actual COVID was. We didn't know, and I remember seeing all sides of the argument because I was just very open-minded and I didn't want to get one side of.
Kamal:I went everywhere and what I noticed was there was definitely levels of you know, outrage based on we're supposed to be outraged versus thinking about independently, about what you feel, what is actually going on, being able to listen, hear one another, like I saw so much discourse, fighting, yelling and I'm just thinking to myself like no one's talking with each other, y'all talking about each other, and I just I saw another A documentary on Netflix, I think the social dilemma I think it's called, or something like that when he goes into how phones are, like Getting our minds, you know, and I was just like man that's.
Kamal:I want to say something about this in my own way. Like you have to kind of Unplug and and get into the world, like because when you actually go into the world and talk to people, connect With people, you know it's from traveling, like when you meet people, it's a totally different reality than what you may see on your phone. And and it's becoming more and more prevalent that I think people are being warped in A more closed off reality and I just want that was my way of like, you know, making a statement to make people you know not make, but hopefully inspire people to think, definitely to take a step back, instead of always trying to have the answer, always having to check, like got it all together, like it's okay to not know, it's okay to be unsure, it's okay to take time to listen and not have anything to say for a change, you know, like, and that's kind of where I've been with a lot of things. I just and that's one thing I love about photography it gives me a moment to sit back and watch and it can get very real, emotional, but that's what makes life worth living to me, you know, like getting into the truth and getting uncomfortable in a good way, you know. So that's one of those photos?
Amelia:yeah, it's okay to sit back and to observe and to form your own opinion versus everything that you see on social media or on television. You're absolutely right.
Kamal:And it goes kind of to what we were saying about the photography in terms of you know, you take a picture. If you look at a lot of art let me not say art, but like in terms of photographers online I'll say you can start to see the same kind of photos over and over again. You'll start to see this pressure to fit into a box and you may think that you're, this is me. But the question is, is it you If you haven't taken the time to sit back and really ask yourself, like, how do I know I'm? Am I really so far out the box or am I following something and I haven't been in the world enough to really be able to get a real image of myself? You know, so self-reflection is so important to me. That's what helped me continue to be healing through the process with my best friend, and you know it's a powerful tool. It's difficult, but it's a powerful tool for sure.
Amelia:Yeah, you know, when you captured the 2020 Black Lives Matter protest, what was it like being on the front lines of such a historic movement and how did that influence your perspective as a photographer?
Kamal:Extremely emotional, like I was saying. It was there because, especially as being a Black man, you know like there were moments, especially tense moments, between police and civilians, with a very, a lot of yelling, a lot of great arguments being given, words of just truth and honesty, crying like just. And you're shooting these events. I'm taking these pictures but I really want to be yelling with them, you know. So it's not. It's a very confusing place to be, but you're there, but you want to. You know the images. That's my way of yelling, getting that image so it can live on. But I remember there were plenty of times where I just started crying as I was taking pictures. You know, I remember the first time I went out, actually there was a huge rally in San Francisco and there were, like it was, a lot of people. This is like in the beginning, when, like George Floyd just happened and they were doing, if you remember, there was like a lot of videos of like all these people marching and this was against the COVID lockdowns and this was a very large gathering and I remember I just started crying also because I was. You know I was, and this is San Francisco does not have a huge Black population. Oakland's a little different, but like San Francisco doesn't. So I remember standing out there and I was one of the few Black people, like in the area. But the level of sincerity and I guess I don't know what to call that, but just love I was receiving and it was very authentic and real was very uncomfortable for me but very emotional too. You know. You can just feel that we all were like we get it, you know, or we're trying to get it, and you know. So it was very, very real. It felt like every day and I was going out every day, every night, around the clock, you know, and it was never an easy moment. There was always something that was like a challenge. There was always something I needed to question myself and figure out and ask why do I want to take that photo? Is this worth? There were some things I saw that I think a lot of photographers would have taken pictures of. I felt like that wasn't right. You know, like so it's also.
Kamal:Discernment is also another thing and I think it ultimately it taught me the importance of being dedicated to what you're trying to say. You know, like, I think, people, often it takes a lot to really find your voice, find your way in anything, and I've never dedicated that much time and physical energy to anything and I would have never thought being a photographer was like this physical thing like. But you really do need to be in shape, like you're running, your body needs to be flexible, you have to get, and I'm six-five, so there's like a lot of times when I'm taking pictures of people and they might be shorter than me so I have to get really low quickly, like there's so much that goes into it. So it just taught me that photography is a sport, you know, and it's like you better be in shape if you really want to do it. And you got to go every day. It's not something that you can just like oh, I got my camera, I'm gonna take some pictures.
Kamal:Like this book took three years, you know, and the one before that, quest Supreme, took five, you know. So it's a very dedicated thing, but I love it. So you kind of have to love it if you really want to. I think excel in photography it's something you can't cheat it. You cannot cheat it, you just can't. You don't have to buy expensive equipment, you don't need to do that, but the work you have to every day you got to be like zoned in to do something I think special.
Amelia:Yeah, Absolutely. Now you just mentioned Quest Supreme. It documents your travels to over 40 countries, as you mentioned earlier, in search of this inner piece. What were some of the most transformative experiences during your global journey?
Kamal:Oh man, that's whoa, that's a lot. Oh, wow, so many, so many. Uh, oh, there's so many. I remember it was one in the beginning, there was so many, but there was one when I was in Thailand, the first trip, the 40-day trip, and we did the full moon party in Copenhagen. I didn't even know that was on the list of things to do.
Kamal:So like I'm so remote I don't know anything about like I remember, like because I was with a tour group of young people that were just like, so I, because I didn't know how to backpack. So I remember we will be like, hey, we're going to Cambodia. I was like, okay, what parts they're. Like, oh, you don't know where we're going, I don't know Everything wasn't surprised. Like they would take me to the, the temples. I'm like oh wow. Like I didn't know, I wasn't prepared, I just had really nice clothes, that's it. And we were. So we went to the full moon party. I knew nothing about what this was. They were telling me like, oh my God, it's like a big fray, even it's at night, in the full moon. Like, wow, that sounds amazing. I can't believe I'm doing this. So I remember we did it and we like we're like the highlighter clothes. It was like, I think, seven of us and this is like at the end of this, like how I ended that 40 day trip actually. So I got to see some of the people I met in that very beginning and it was just a very loving, like fun, but just embracing each other and with the full moon and the beach and the music and just I just remember feeling a sense of like yo, this would have never happened if you never took a step forward, if you never stepped out of your comfort zone. You like you just met seven people that you're going to be friends with the rest of your life. I am still friends with them all. They're from all different places you would have never not in wherever you were living. So just that level of seeing how intention really affects, like when you walk into the things you want to do, how far it can go.
Kamal:Another one was this is really small, but I was in Indonesia, I was in Bali and there was the Gile Islands and it's amazing. I love the Gile Islands. I did like 10 days there and I remember at this time I was asking people what does your name mean? I will walk up to people and I really enjoy meeting people and I was like, what does your name mean? Like I would really be curious if you have interesting name meanings most of the time. I remember this one guy. He was just like I don't remember.
Kamal:We were like on the beach at like four o'clock in the morning. It was beautiful, the waves, and there was these random couches on the beach and this is Bali. This is amazing, you know like, and it was like all of us all around the same age is kicking it, talking about life, sharing our struggles with not knowing who we are parent pressure, career pressure, relationship pressure but we all kind of like let it out that night and just like it was like a freeing moment. And one of the guys that I asked that to he's like I don't know what my name means and it was really like he was in his mind about it. So the next day, next morning, we were leaving on a boat to go to the main island, to get to go home, and he's running.
Kamal:It was like a movie. He's like, come on, come on. He's like I know what my name means and I can't remember what it was, but it just, it was just such a beautiful moment because it's like wow again, these connections, these moments that you might not think nothing of your, your, your, your shifting people's lives and they're shifting yours at the same time. It's such a, it's such a beautiful experience to be traveling, and especially when you're, you know, doing things outside of the comfort zone, outside of the tourist stuff, really exploring yourself. You know like it's. It's immaculate, really it is.
Amelia:Yeah, and I think that you're right like doing things outside of the tourist stuff and that's so important to me and in stripping yourself of the things that you're used to right, like when my husband and I we hiked to Mount Everest Base Camp five years ago. And we didn't summit. You know, we didn't do the summit, we just went to base camp, but that was that was something.
Kamal:No, you were. You said I'm going, that's an. You did that part. That's already like 2% of humanity. That's amazing. Wow, what was that like?
Amelia:Yeah, it was the most difficult thing that I'd ever done, both physically and mentally, because and it wasn't even necessarily stripping yourself of the material items that you're used to it was more so for me. Now I ended up at the end I had a lot of health problems. Afterwards, it turns out, I had asthma and I didn't even know when I was an asthma attack. The whole time I was there and had no idea. Like by the time I got home my face was like a big tomato.
Amelia:It was just me and red because of the altitude, but for me it was more so. Have an idle time in my mind right, like now I have time to think about things, now I have time to write things down and to like really be with myself, and sometimes we're not always comfortable with that right.
Amelia:We don't want that because we keep ourselves so busy, because we don't want to think about some things, and so, and actually I don't think I've ever even talked about that portion of the trip. I've spoken about the trip numerous times but I've never really shared that. That was the piece that really almost like oh, now I can't. You know you don't have your iPad or your phone in bed to scroll TikTok at night or you know, or a lot of your friends or family members around you.
Amelia:I mean, you're with a lot of strangers and we made friends and we had an amazing, incredible time, really transformative time. But it definitely gave you time to think and I think some of those trips, like what you're talking about, it does. It makes you think about things that you wouldn't have if you were home.
Kamal:Yeah, definitely.
Kamal:And it can get very like you said. It can get very uncomfortable, like it's not. It wasn't a beauty show for me, like those five years there was some tough, tough times, plenty of times where I wanted to just leave. I remember one time I called my mom. I was like I don't like this anymore, like it was too difficult culturally, things that worked at home and I've always been a social person. I had to learn how to become social internationally, because it's a different way of communication, it's a different, it's different. So I didn't know.
Kamal:So I'm doing my Jersey thing and the Jersey thing ain't working and I'm thinking they don't like me because something wrong, they're judging me. And I remember my mom was like yo, just you paid all that money, have a good time, stop trying to be people's friends, just do you. And when I did that, to my surprise, all of a sudden I became. I met so many people and I realized it was me, it wasn't them, it wasn't the world around me, it was me trying to fit Well, not, I don't know what, I was trying to fit in, but just focusing on the wrong part. You come all the way out there. It's not about them, it's about you. And once you make it about you, naturally them becomes a co-created space, versus trying to live through just the people you meet. It needs to be like a little bit of both. So it's challenging but it's beautiful at the same time.
Amelia:Now you were in 2021,. You were featured in Apple's hometown campaign Celebrating black photographers across America. How did this recognition impact your artistic vision and career?
Kamal:Oh, it was a beautiful push. Oh man, that was the wake up call. That's the one I remember. I was driving, I was driving to, I was driving somewhere and I got the email and I'm like is this real? Cause it was like Apple. I'm like, come on, come on, yeah, who's trying to get my information? And then I remember she was like, yeah, to send you, you decided NDA to move forward. I was like this is real.
Amelia:Okay.
Kamal:So I had to park the car. I was like, okay, this is really, you know so, and I remember it was like it was game time. It wasn't like, oh, you got two months to figure it out and it was like you need to. You got we have a meeting in like a week or like three days. You need to have your whole concept ready. You have, we're going to give you the tools to use. You can't use your equipment, you can't use random. They were just saying so many things I couldn't use Like. You just have to basically get to the, just a camera phone and your subject. That's all you can do and you're going not against. But it is like a competition to a degree you don't want to. You know you got other photographers in different places and at that point I didn't know how many, I didn't know like the number, I didn't know whether more people in the Bay Area, I didn't know if it was gonna, I didn't know. So I Just I love the challenge of it and it was such a beautiful not beautiful but I Don't know like it was like game time, like it was like, and you either step up to the plate or you get scary and you drop the ball and I kind of really do. Well, when the odds are against me, like stacked, and I think you know, and they didn't, and I didn't know it was gonna be billboards, anything or commercials, like they didn't say any of that, it was like this could happen, but we'll see. They didn't even make it seem like it would even be chosen, like we gotta see what you do and then We'll make a decision. So when it became, they got accepted and then, you know, it went online, it went to billboards, it was on the Super Bowl. One of the photos was in the Super Bowl commercial. It was like yo, so again, some of the stuff I was saying earlier about, like you, you just have to really believe in yourself and not be afraid to do your voice and take will have your voice. Because even in the Photography I took, like you know, I didn't want to do anything that was similar to anybody else. You know, and I remember when I was telling them my concepts they were like, okay, I mean, well, you know, we'll see. But I knew it was like it wasn't necessarily what they might have wanted to hear. Well, I don't know that, but I felt that way. But they were very supportive and beautiful people. I love everyone over there and, yeah, I it was. It was a great growth spurt, I would say.
Kamal:And after you do something like that, there's a couple of pressures not one. You do feel good about yourself, it opens a lot of doors, and but also it's like, okay, now, what you know, what are you gonna do now? It's like, how do you push the envelope as a creative, as an artist, how do you? What's the next level? Oh, you know, and that's the where I'm at, that's one of the more conversations that have more consistently. And now I really understand this part of artistry.
Kamal:When you've gotten out of the Beginner stage, so to speak, and you're like, in your career, you've done some things that you really are proud of, and it's like, okay, what? How do you push the envelope? How do you continue to recreate? Do you recreate? Do you go a different lane? It's such a very it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a thing, it's a thing and it's um, I Understand it and I think the deeper I get into the, the more I have appreciation for other artists, and especially the ones that have had longevity, the ones that have continued to stay consistent, the ones that continue to grow.
Kamal:I think growing is like you have. Again, you got to put the time and you got to put the effort in and so, yeah, that Apple experience Really opened my eyes to just what I can do and also being ready for any moment that comes my way, like I will never be afraid of. I wasn't afraid of that event, but like it, at least it wasn't in my head. Now it was like I had real. I Played that out and it went very well and I try to. You know, I just keep that mentality moving forward. The best is I can anyway.
Amelia:I think when we do progress in our careers or our passions, Oftentimes it's us getting in our own head right when we went out on the light. We're like Get you know what they say imposter syndrome like well, do I? Really belong in this space, like is this really for me? Am I really good enough and I? I think that oftentimes it's just us getting in our own head.
Kamal:Yeah, yeah, definitely Trust. It's a part of the process. But you got like remember. Like again, don't be a slave to the algorithm. Like don't let any like remember who you are. Like remember who you are. And I always tell myself Whenever I'm feeling uncomfortable, whatever I'm like question myself, be like remember your story, bro, remember your reason. Like I told you about my best friend, his birthday was March 7th minus March 5th.
Kamal:I per one of the reasons I wear this hat all the time is because of the seven. It's like he's constantly with me and it's like when you've dealt with stuff like that, it makes those things it's in other people like secondary. Like I'm not gonna let you defeat me After I've triumphed through these real things. This is just this, isn't either you make it a break. It has been things I've. I've had opportunities that I'd not failed that, but it didn't go the way I wanted. You know there were big opportunities, contest that I would the finalists didn't work out. I gave my all, but I won't let that defeat me. It's like it happens. It's just a part of the game. But just remember your reason, you know. Remember why you're here.
Amelia:Yeah, Now, the power of visual storytelling is immense. How do you hope that your photography can contribute to a better understanding of complex social issues?
Kamal:Doing the work again, like really diving into things, like I think, as a photographer, especially in today's culture and I've only learned this from the from the older photographers that I've connected with over the years and followed from afar. They always say young photographers leaves to leave too quick. They say we go to scenes, we take pictures and we're sometimes what it was first people out and it's like you need to stay. You never know you might miss that one shot, it might be just one moment at the end of that event or wherever you're at. Like don't be so quick and hasty, even in the Making photography books, like nowadays, you know I think some photographers are doing it like within a year. It's like you didn't really dive into that topic, it to take, like this next one I'm doing, I'm Respecting this to take at least four years, you know like and I think, giving it that level of respect of whatever you're trying to say. I think that's how you you make a statement, versus Looking at things from just the top of the the cover instead of really going underneath and really learning about and showing respect to who you're taking pictures of. You know that was one of the reasons with black astronaut. That made me that also motivate me, because I feel like a lot of photos weren't realistic to what was actually going on. I think the photographers maybe they just didn't Understand the, the emotions, like how I was crying at the police line, like maybe because I I really understand what's happening. Maybe that gave me a different I into the situation.
Kamal:There was also times you know where I was at different rallies and I think, because I got access, I got access they. We recognized each other. They knew what I was there for. There was a trust there. So I think the same thing goes with any topic you go into and that's based on every photographer, every moment. It's like Do you, are you here just to take photos? Are you going to like be a part of this experience with the subject? Are you going to really dive in and show respect and gain their trust? You know, instead of taking photos, you're actually like what taking, like making photos with the subject. I think that's something that I really learned and that's something I try to do, and I think that Translates differently when you're seeing it, because it gives the honest Something that might not be seen, you know something that might have been missed, nuances that are like, wow, you know, like it's even like if people and maybe you're not, someone's not a photographer Like just think about, like having interesting conversations with people how many people are with friends? But because they don't kind of go into deeper topics or ask different questions, they don't know a lot about that person. But if you, you know, put, actually start to spend time and turn the TV off, turn the phone off and Communicate, you might wow, I didn't know you.
Kamal:You know, it's the same thing with artistry. It's like taking your time, like just, and you'll find out new things and and then it'll make it. It'll help in terms of the fact that so many people are trying to do the same thing you're doing, because now, you know, photography, media, everyone's in the game. So how do you find your voice? How do you find your voice? How do you become? How do you stand out? And I think you stand out by doing the work, because a lot, most people, I find the way society is run now it's like quick, quick, quick, quick, run, run, run, run. But it's not. Let me just chill, let me see what's going on here, you know.
Amelia:So yeah, I idea of you know immediate satisfaction. We know we want something right now instead of really putting our time into it and Again, like I mentioned earlier, sitting back and observing and taking it in. You mentioned Establishing trust, and that kind of leads me into my next question how do you establish trust and build connections with your subjects, especially when you're documenting these sensitive topics?
Kamal:I think that's that's, that's intuition, that's life experience, that's Compassion, empathy. You know Compassion, empathy, you know that's. Yeah, you got to take your time. You can't like come in there and just start shooting away. You got to like introduce yourself to people. I've become very good at like I. It's, it's like a.
Kamal:To ask someone can I take your picture is so natural to me. There's no level of like. Like in the beginning, it's like that you don't know if you can. Now it's just like hey, can I take a picture? No, okay, cool, like I don't even take it personally, like it's like it would have been a great photo, but I get it. You know whereas. But nine times out of ten people say yes and you get the access and trust because, like you know, many people tell me thank you because I asked Like just saying, hey, may I take your photo?
Kamal:I think you look cool, or hey, I'm doing this project, or, and they go really me. I'm like yeah, you look at like, and just having that friendly I'm, I am moved. So that's the other part. I'm not just taking it just to take it like. I'm looking at you, I'm like, oh no, this is, I have to do this, and I think that Energy they, I believe the subjects feel and so I think, um, yeah, it's, it's a part of just like talking with people and not being afraid. Don't let this camera Block you from having experiences with people.
Kamal:There's been again, like I said earlier, there's been moments where I'm like this is an amazing photo, but out of respect for this moment, I'm not going to do it. I have had moments where friends and family where, like, I have my camera and something emotional might be happening and I'm like my discernment tells me, nah, it's just not worth Making them feel Disrespected or taken advantage of or whatever are uncomfortable, you know. So I've just that's something that's really important to me and it's just connecting with people saying, and I think, like I always use the like karate kid, like the wax on, wax off thing that he told Danny's son Daniel son is like, yeah, like when you're going traveling the world and you're getting used to meeting people and going to these Hostels and it teaches you how to connect with people. So I think that really helps me. It's almost the same thing. It's like I'm open, I'm cool, I'm non-judgmental. That's another thing. Non-judgmental is the way to go.
Kamal:Like there's so many moments like I've been to an anti. I went to a few anti-vax rallies and you know, outside looking and I would think, oh, this isn't what I want to go to, but, and you know, but it was a beautiful challenge because, like, I was seeing things that I didn't necessarily agree with, but I gave them the same respect I would give anybody else and, as an artist, for me personally that's important because I know there's situations where I might not fit Aesthetic that people are comfortable with and I've been judged by what I seem like or what preconceived notions they have of me, and I hate it. So it's like you're almost paying it forward as a photographer by showing people that respect and I think what you put out in his words. You get back and I've had some beautiful experiences Based off that, you know so, and I continue to to do most of the Um.
Kamal:The photographers I've learned from they've all kind of had the same kind of thought process. The ones that get those photos we like how did you get that? It's like we're, how did you? And it's like a conversation. I talked to them, I spent time with the family. I live with them for two weeks. I helped them with their like. It's like you have to really immerse yourself, and that's the part you got to really you got to dive in there's no, there's no cheat, cheat code there really isn't like you got to go All in. If you want to do something special, I believe so yeah.
Amelia:Well, and that's what sets you apart from an artist in traditional media you know your storyteller. As an artist, what role do you think our infotography play in fostering empathy and understanding among diverse communities?
Kamal:It's a great way to see the other side or to see things you might not understand, like and there's. There is a difference between experiencing something and looking at something, but I do think that it helps. It's a part of the process. Like for me, movies. Growing up in New Jersey, like no one, we did travel a little bit like we went, but mainly went to South Jersey. We went to Vegas every once in a while and I was like whoa, you know like, but we weren't hopping on planes left and right, you know. So travel wasn't a part of what we, what I was used to. Movies was my way out. Movies was like whoa, and my dad used to take me to movies all the time and I think that's why we're seeing this world of like whoa, they got those kind of toys or they are in that place or they're traveling. In that it was like an eye into something and it's not the same as doing it, but it gives you to, it does something for your visualization and like setting the tone, I guess, or some sort of thing. So I think the same thing is true of photography, as movies were to me. It gives you an opportunity to learn about things you might not understand, and that's the thing. But it also becomes a question of the individual, that is, you. I think people need to seek these things too, because they're not going to find you. You know, it's very rare that you just hop and find something that's going to open your mind, like you have to kind of have an open mind and be curious. The curiosity starts and then you start finding books, you start finding movies, you start reaching out and diving into yourself and reading books and things of that nature, and I think it's like the seeker will find the thing that can help grow their mentality and empathy and understanding. So it's almost like once you make a choice, there's infinite things in the world that can help broaden your mind.
Kamal:So I think photography is like it's an opportunity for someone that's already made a choice, you know, versus it being something. If you're not ready, you're not going to see it. I can. I've shown books to people that have changed my life and I've seen them get it and they go flip, flip, flip, nothing. I'm like, and I and I'm like, how could you not stop and look at that photo? You know, and they're my oh, who's cool. Drops the book and goes, you know, and I'm like not to take that personally, but it's like it shows me that if you're not seeking that, you're not going to see it. So I think it again. I think it provides an opportunity to create empathy, but it doesn't make people empathetic, you know. I think so, yeah.
Amelia:Now you've spoken about your new book, black Astronaut, a little bit, and it explores the nationwide revolution ignited by the pandemic and George Floyd's passing, as you mentioned. What inspired you to document this particular moment in history and what message or impact do you hope that this book is going to have on it, on its readers? Great question.
Kamal:Great question. Yeah, I would say similar, like again seeing all those learning so many photography books of civil rights movement, the hippie movement, that, the peace movement, the peace revolution, the women's revolution, all that we're like a lot of the books that really I really was like, I felt, I felt like I was learning, I felt like it was giving me an eye into something and then, from an artistic perspective, I was, you know, actually seeing how it was done versus what Instagram will show you, like real photography, you know, and I feel like, once that you know, everything happened, like you know, george Floyd, and again, the emotion that we all felt when we watched that video, a different level of pain that I've never really experienced in that way, given that type of situation. And it was a wake up call and I didn't know I was going to make a book out of it. It was just I knew that I needed to do my part and I said this to a friend it's like, and I remember at that time, so many people wanted to do more but they didn't know what they can do, especially with lockdowns, and it's like, what can I do? I don't know what to do. Like, I can post, I can send money? I can, and it's and I get that because it can be difficult. You can't just change something with a blink of an eye. It's like it takes work.
Kamal:So the fact that I was a photographer and I actually could do something, I didn't take that for granted. So it was like for all my friends that wanted to do something but couldn't all the people that aren't here anymore, that are living through us and and, and all the people that are coming down the pike that need to understand what happened, is this moment in time, like I was, that motivated me to get out there and do it? And it was again. It was just pure rawness of the moment and complete just in like completely tunnel vision of making sure I do my best and not taking anything for granted. And, yeah, and it became a book. You know, I realized maybe maybe a year and a half of taking photos and seeing that it was something was happening, because you don't know you're taking photos and for me, you don't really know if you have anything that's worth that you know, it's just kind of like, okay, let's see. But then it was just. Images were just speaking so powerfully and I was like, nah, you, this is something and I was so thankful that I chose to wait, also because there's a lot of books that came out by the end of that year, like 2020, into 2021, 2022, they were already like published and now and I'm like it's not over yet there's so many other things that are going on, especially like the women's movement, like there was so many things that are happened that I'm happy I was able to incorporate into the book, because I really wanted to be about this bigger picture of everything that America is trying to say, and I didn't think it was, of course, the pandemic and George for like night at it, but we're still figuring stuff out. You know, I could still be working on that book if I wanted to, but I felt like the time was right At that point, like about in three years in, and yeah, it's been, yeah, it's been a very, very meaningful journey.
Kamal:I would say something that I definitely like request Supreme was a beautiful book and that was again, that was me just living my life. That was about me and drew, finding my piece. This was about showing up for all the people that are responsible for all the beautiful things I have today. You know the freedom that I have today, and it was like it was my way to give back. Honestly, it was my way to like risk my life because I knew it was bigger than me and to see where it's today. You know hasn't come out yet, but just seeing the great things that have happened in between you know, and the opportunities that has opened in the conversations, and I really really cannot wait to it's out and I can have further dialogue with people, because this has been so close to my heart. I've seen the book a million, trillion times, so it's like the images are very, very close to me to a point where I don't even have perspective of them anymore. It's like you know. So I really can't wait to see people's, to get some feedback on it, because I think it's a very great opportunity to reflect on those times.
Kamal:But also, through that reflection, I believe it creates the possibility of like thinking forward about where you want to go, and that's one of the reasons why I chose the concept black astronaut at versus it being just a book about America and crisis or something that's more along the lines of if you know what it is as soon as you read the title, I wanted to create a concept within it. So we continue to realize we need to go forward. And the whole concept is black astronaut, because when I felt like I left my apartment when you had COVID in the air, so you didn't trust the air, you know and then America seemed like a brand new place, that didn't make any sense, Like I felt like I was in a new world, like people are running right and I'm like what? What happened to the America? I knew, and if you think about an astronaut, what they, when they go into the moon or wherever they're going in space, everything around them is trying to destroy them. Everything around them is unfamiliar.
Kamal:That suit lets them go into very dangerous places and be okay, and I felt like that's what I had to become to take those photos and to create this project. So, and I'm continuing to go forward and everything I do, and I want that for everyone else like because I feel we all deal with stuff like that. We all are in uncomfortable situations where all like, like in places that might be unfamiliar or places that are trying to take advantage of us or whatever it might be, and we need to be strong, we need to be vigilant, we need to be realized who we are and know that nothing can stop you as long as you remember who you are and believing in stuff, and that's the deeper concept of the book. So that's my hope that people get from it reflection and inspiration to grow and fly forward.
Amelia:I think that is a beautiful concept and I am so excited for you. Where can our listeners find you online and where can they preorder black astronaut?
Kamal:Awesome. Well, the easiest way I would say it will my Instagram page. I have all the links, they're all in there, but my answer I am come all x. So I am K a m a l x, that's my Instagram, and. But if you also go to Amazon right now, you can preorder I'm not sure when this will come out or just order it on Amazon. If you type in black astronaut, come all x, it pops right up. If you just put put in black astronaut, it pops up. But then come all x, it pops up. You'll see me but astronaut suit with a big yellow x and that's me and you found it. And yeah, any support, any, it goes such a long way, such a long way.
Kamal:This is my first major publication, the first major self published. This one is with publisher out in UK, so this is a whole different level of more books to sell and it's a beautiful challenge. But it's also beautiful because I think it's into the possibility of being into more homes, more people, more experiences, more conversation. And anyone out there that's curious and would like to check it out of support, I would greatly, greatly appreciate it. You definitely won't be wasting your time or your money, for sure.
Amelia:And I will make sure to link to your Instagram and to Amazon for you to purchase it on this episode. So I have one last question for you. Ask everyone this Do you have a favorite quote or any words of wisdom that you would like to leave behind for our listeners?
Kamal:Favorite quote man, that's a who. Well, there's so many because I'm thinking of Prince, love Prince, but I can't think. I know, I don't want to mess Prince quotes up, but I'm also thinking of Muhammad Ali, because Muhammad Ali I draw a lot of inspiration from also, and it's quote it's quick because I don't remember the whole thing, but he literally says I'm the greatest. He says that and I'm not using that in a way like oh, I'm the, but more so, like that level of faith in yourself and that level of dealing with the world against you and not being afraid and standing up for what you believe in. That's what I pull from when I read that I'm the greatest.
Kamal:When I'm seeing him say that and I'm seeing him be the heavyweight champion in the world at that time period, all the things he's dealing with and speaking out and being just one of the greatest leaders, fighters of all time, it's like whoa, you know. It's just like I pull from that and I think about that when I'm down, when I'm even, when I'm working out, if I'm like the entire, I imagine like, oh, muhammad Ali say, man, he would be like get up, you're the great, you know. So like. I always keep that in my mind of just like keeping me going and it's a good mantra and yeah, it's a positive vibe. And then there's some Prince stuff, but I can't think of it right now, but Prince is amazing. So check out Prince.
Amelia:Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me today. I am incredibly grateful for you in this conversation. It's been just really amazing and I'm really grateful that you took time out of your day to be with me.
Kamal:Oh, thank I this. I genuinely enjoyed all of this. Your questions were amazing, connecting with you. I love your ability to to converse and to share, and you have such an interesting story yourself. I wish you all the best and continued success and everything you're doing. All the listeners you guys have an amazing person you guys are listening to. Thank you to be here and, yeah, all of all of you.