The Shadow List

Writer and poet Jen Sookfong Lee joins the podcast to discuss her debut poetry collection The Shadow List. Messy, raw and passionate Jen looks closely at women and desire. She reveals how poetry enables her to incorporate more of her true self into her writing and discusses her love of pop culture. She is a regular on CBC Radio One, a moderator for the Vancouver Writers Festival and has her own literary podcast Can't Lit.

Books and Resources discussed:

A Bright Ray of Darkness by Ethan Hawke
The Shadow List by Jen Sookfong Lee
The Conjoined by Jen Sookfong Lee
Superfan by Jen Sookfong Lee (to be released in fall of 2022)
By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept by Elizabeth Smart
A Dream of a Woman by Casey Plett
The Most Precious Substance on Earth by Sashi Bhat
Gutter Child by Jael Richardson
Probably Ruby by Lisa Bird-Wilson
Brat: An 80's Story by Andrew McCarthy
The White Lotus, HBO

Amy reviewed A Bright Ray of Darkness in Season 1, Episode 11. To listen to the review click here: A Bright Ray of Darkness

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Website: sookfong.com
Podcast: Can't Lit

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Transcript

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I did say to him afterwards I said, so like if I ever see you just by coincidence at all like the streets of New York City, and like I run up to you and like start talking Will you remember me? He said, of course. How can I ever forget? I'm like, Wow, he probably says that to all the interviewers, but still. Hello, welcome back to the red Fern book review. I am your host, Amy Mair. And today, I am joined by author Jen Sookfong Lee. I'm so thrilled that she's here. Jen is a prolific writer. She's written fiction, nonfiction, she writes children's books. And now she's written her first book of poetry called the Shadow List, which we're going to talk about today. It's messy and vivid. It is spicy. And it's been called gorgeously alive by the Vancouver Sun. You may also know her from the radio and on other podcasts. She's been a columnist for CBC Radio ones on the coast, all points West and the next chapter. She's taught at Simon Fraser University, and has her own literary podcast called Catlett with Dina WTF. And I also just wanted to say that Jen did an excellent job moderating a Vancouver Writers Festival event with Ethan Hawke for A Bright Ray of Darkness. And it was one of the best interviews that I've seen. And it was great because it was a serious interview. But you could also you'll learn in this podcast that she was kind of geeking out over being a fan of Ethan Hawke. And that was her talking about him in the intro. And so I wanted to welcome Jen. And I also wanted to ask her, what made her decide to shift over to poetry, I started reading the shadow list and sort of those years when my son was quite little, and I didn't have like six hours at a time to dedicate to writing a novel Novel Writing is just a real time sucker with good outcomes, but like, it takes a lot of time takes a lot of like commitment, and like really, really thinking hard about stuff for like hours a day. So I always want to be writing something, you know, like Ethan Hawke, I think art is life. So I I'm always trying to be writing something. So I started writing some poems, because, you know, while my son was asleep for 45 minutes, I could actually write the first draft of a poem, or at least a really good start. And it was something that you can, poetry is something that you can dip into, and then step out back and then come back to it and you don't lose a whole lot. And then what happened was, I ended up with something like, I don't know, 30 poems, and I thought, Well, wait a second, though. This is a book, which is the professional writer and we talking when I say that is it a book, though, and I had no intentions of publishing it. And then I looked at it, and it was so cohesive, like, the protagonist, or the speaker, was very consistent. And she had a lot to say, and I thought, No, there's more for her. And then I started going at it, shaping it in a way that is familiar to me in terms of like structure structurally, like, structurally, I always look at things the way I look at novels, really, because I, that's what I'm most used to. And I took a look at the shadow list. And I'm like, what are we saying here? What is her narrative arc? Where do we want to end? Where do we want to start? And yeah, that's how it became a book. And it's funny, I sent the manuscript to my agent, who you would not think this is my previous agent. She has since retired, but you would not think an agent would encourage you to write poetry, but she always did. I don't know why. I still don't know. She knew that I wanted to, I think. And when I sent her the poetry collection as a manuscript, she was so excited, like agents are never excited about poetry because the advances are so small. But she loved it. And she was so happy and she sent it out and we got a contract. So there you go. And so explain what how would you summarize, and I have to say, like, poetry isn't intimidating for a lot of people. It's intimidating for me. So I read some of your poets for poems, which we'll talk about and I had specific opinions but I didn't know if I could give myself permission sometimes to have those opinions. Does that make sense? Oh, yes, with fiction I am more confident to say this works this dozens. Why are Why is poetry so intimidating. To some people, do you think I think people really believe that they have to understand everything they really want. So when you're reading prose like you can, it's the meaning or the intentions of the author are much more visible, generally, because there's just more words, there's more details, there's more everything. With poem, it's less obvious. And I think that readers put a lot of pressure on themselves to try to understand every line and why the line breaks here, and why it's not capitalized, you know, all of this stuff. Because obviously, in poetry, there's a lot more sort of experimentation of like, you know, languidly people mess with the linguistics and stuff. But I try to tell readers that reading a poem is like looking at a piece of art, like visual art, you don't look at a painting, and try to figure out the intention behind every brushstroke, right? We don't do that we look at the painting, we think that's beautiful or not beautiful, it makes me feel angry or sad or confused. And then you think about it, and then you think this is what I get out of it. And then you move on. And I don't think and I think it's funny to me that readers don't, a lot of readers don't approach poems that way. And I think you can, and you should, and I think that we would all get a lot more enjoyment out of it, if that's what we did. There is no way of knowing every intention behind every word choice in a poem, there's no way of ever knowing that in the same way, there's no way of knowing how each brushstroke was created on a painting. So the point is, then, is to establish a relationship between yourself as a reader and what the poem is. And then it's fine. It's fine. If you don't get what the author intended, it doesn't matter. Well, we have no ego about that. Really? Yeah, my dog is barking just, it's usually my dog. It's usually my dog. Okay, so tell us give people a little summary, what is this collection about? Um, you know, I think the shadow list Rosie really wants to get in on this explanation. The Shadow List is really, I started out with this idea that I wanted to write a sort of messy, complicated, sort of book about desire about women's desires. And when I started doing a little bit of research into it, I found that the the ones that we think of the poems that we think of that come to mind are usually, you know, I think of Elizabeth Smart, actually, By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept, which is not a poll, but it's a poetic, sort of novella. And the further I looked into these, like individual poems of desire Gwendolyn MacEwen writes them, you know, a bunch of like female poets do. I discovered that they were almost always white women, especially in Canada. And that lit a fire because I thought to myself, well, you know, what kind of narratives are they allowing Asian women to write and our narratives are quite subdued. Sometimes they're usually really domestic have to do with family. Often immigration often, the trope of food, just keep for you know, any Asian author, they always want us to write about, like noodles and dumplings. And that's fine, I guess. But that's Yeah. And then I got like, I got to thinking when do Asian female authors ever get to lay bare the ugliest, darkest, most hidden secrets of their lives? Do they ever? And know the answers? They don't that we haven't been allowed to do that yet? Or if people are writing it, they haven't been published yet. So I said, so I thought to myself, am I allowed to do it? I don't know. Just gonna do it anyway. And then the shadow list became what it became. It is it is parts of it are shocking. I you have said and you said this on your podcast, you talked about how poetry just the the way it's set up allows you to show more of yourself then maybe other mediums. Could you explain that part? Yeah, I think poetry is you're hiding behind layers of like linguistic play, or linguistic experimentation. And the other thing too, is like, let's be very honest, not as many people read poems. So if you are going to, like reveal your secrets in a poetry book, you only like 25 people will see it at most. That's the other thing. And also, you know what I just said about readers looking at poems like a like a piece of visual art rather than trying to understand every word. If you can, if you want to throw in some secrets in there, some people might not even understand it, so it's fine. So those those are my jokey answers, but I do think too, that for me, poetry is very much a really tight focus on voice. And with voice comes the exposure of character. So in the shadow list, there's definitely parts of me in my protagonists She isn't me and I'm not her. But we're definitely we definitely share a few things. And it just felt. It just feels like if I'm doing this experimentation with voice in the form as I want to do, then I can put more of what I might think or do or say, into the poem and it feels safer like a safer space. Okay, that makes sense. Why don't we read one at Why don't you read one of the poems there was one I picked out. Yeah, reacted to and I want to hear what you think it's what you actually know what it's about what you think it's alright, we're gonna read to try to the listeners don't know me and I actually discussed how neither of us had ever said this word out loud. I actually don't think I've read this poem yet. So that's why I was like, is it detritus? I think it has. Okay. Okay, here we go. Okay. In your son's pockets, you find the following. maple leaves dried pebbles from the schoolyard. A dove feather, a plastic Sapphire fallen he whispers from the Queen's crown. What you never talk about the glitter he wants collected from the basement of your last house spilled across the concrete floor. From a box of loose Christmas ornaments you dropped in your hurry to decorate a living room, you knew you would soon leave. Then he had swept the sparkly dust into an egg cup with his chubby hands and placed it on the mantel, the same mantel, you would punch during the fight that sparked a fire in your chest that burned through the sinews and your shoulders and arms until your knuckles hit the stained oak and you were left with swollen hands until New Year's Eve. Maybe the champagne fixed everything. But you know that's not true. Your chest aches when you think of that house, the tall ceilings the plaster walls, schools, the touch, the egg cups sits on a shelf in your son's new room, dusty now behind a pile of ball caps. If he ever looks at it, he doesn't say. Okay, so tell us what this poem is about? Or how to interpret it. Yeah, I mean, like, first, like, thematically, I was working with this idea of these sort of inadvertent damages we do to our children, which is not that any of us are bad parents. It's not what I mean. But there are always going to be moments in our lives where we've inadvertently either been witness to or caused trauma to our children. And this is like the, I think this is the like, main sort of pain of parenthood, isn't it right? Knowing that you could have done better and you didn't, in a moment. And it happens to everybody. This is not like doesn't mean anyone's bad. It just means this is just life. Like we do things and our children see it, or they experience it. And it's really hard for us to come to terms with what we think is being a good parent and what our day to day lives are. The other thing too, is like, I wrote a lot of these poems after my marriage ended my first marriage. I'm not married again. I don't know why. There's only been one. But yeah, it. There's a lot of I think, especially women who have children, there's so much guilt and shame about leaving a marriage or being part of a marriage that you think has failed. And I would say no, marriage is a failure. It's just, it was a success for as long as you're married, that's fine. And if it ends, it's not a failure. It's just life. And I think, you know, wondering about those times when What did I do to my kid? Is my kid going to be okay? And I guess yeah, that's where I was going with that. And also those moments like the dark periods of your life, or the bad moments that you experienced as a parent. There's detritus left behind. There's evidence always, there's always those scars never really go away. That's depressing, but it's fine. Your kids will be fine. Trust me, Your kids will be fine. Well, the thing of all the poems in here this one I reacted to the most and thing I first reacted to you it wasn't something you haven't mentioned yet, but I have children that are just well, as a friend calls them their emerging adults. I don't know when we consider them adults, but they're, they're 18 and almost 21. And so I reacted to first the kind of, like, just images of chubby hands and playing with glitter and actually brought tears. Oh, I'm not sorry. I love making people cry. And I was like, Oh, my like, it just reminded me almost a romanticized view of the very best parts of being a parent, but it just reminded me of that. And so then, and then the second thing, I did feel that there was I'm what you just said, like I often Now that I'm done with this first phase, I think a lot about, could I have done something better? Or did I do all that I could? And that's what I thought you captured so well. Because I just mean, yeah, motherhood and parenting, I always I often use the term motherhood because I think fatherhood is a different experience. But I do think, yeah, I like I think motherhood is so much of tricking ourselves into believing that we're doing it, okay. We just have to believe it. You have to trust the process. And like, it's hard to trust the process, though, because there's like an actual human being relying on you for their livelihood. And that's like, the stakes seem so high. And it's hard. Like if you actually, I mean, I think every parent has probably done this. But have you ever said, well, mothers anyway, we ever sit down and like, think about the magnitude of this job you've just taken on? You would just be crushed? Totally. And my husband, it's interesting. He does none of that. Like No, none of that. I'm like, What do you think we should have? We could have whatever he's like, What are you talking about? Like, he just doesn't think about that. And he keeps saying like, yeah, maybe we could but so yeah, I just think father's job, Gil attribute, the this sort of high stakes to parenthood the way that mothers do it. I don't think that it I don't think it occurs to them, really. And maybe that's like a evolutionary thing. Maybe that's just how men can serve. If they thought about it too much, they would be destroyed. Oh, my God. And Okay, so then there was another poem that you we talked about that you picked out. It's a bit of a longer one, but I was hoping you could read one more. Yeah, this is this stigmata, which is the last poem in the shadow list. And before I start, I should say, all the conversations that occurred in this film actually occurred, they actually exactly as I write them, yeah. Okay, here we go. stigmata. You have the mark of a which turn your palms up. Look closely at the middle. There a star a stigmata from a past life. When you were thrown into a winter cold river left to sink if you were merely human, dragged out and hung for evil if you floated the rapids were vicious yet in your fists were sprigs of rosemary that you tore from the bush, as the men carried you out of your cottage and through the garden. For memory you thought so they will not forget their shame. As you drowned the jagad woody ends pierce the skin on your palms and you saw the blood swirl upward to the surface. White swells red wisps that spun like baby hair, and then we're gone. You listen to the woman who claims she has the sight. She asks, Are you a conjurer? And you say to your surprise, yes. There were the imagined men you wrote into poems who then became real. There was the restlessness you wrote into your novel, and when your marriage died, you wondered what you had called into being. There is your father, your grandfather, and especially your grandmother. Once well past midnight. You opened your eyes and the neighbor's porch lights spilled over the edge of the bed. It was here your grandmother sat perched like a gargoyle slowly coming to life. By then she'd been dead for 25 years. She said they never knew me. They thought I was real. silent. You watched her cry, transparent tears. You wonder if you should touch her. But you do that your hand would open and close and grasp nothing at all. In the morning, you couldn't remember how she had left. Maybe she walked. Maybe she faded away? Maybe she kissed your forehead before flying out the window nimble and weightless. cradling your hands in her lap this year asks another question. Do you get everything you want? you hesitate? No. But yes. She looks at your face eyes following the lines of your mouth set hard in your jaw. Did he hurt you? Does he scare you? And you don't bother answering because you both already know. He hurt you many times on purpose and by accident. The intent never mattered. you resolve to right upon that wishes him away. A place where the desert grows truncated pine trees wishes that are gray green against the dust rising every time a car passes on the two lane highway. You'd like it there as far as the eye can see he will be the tallest one. In the cramped living room, or three year old dancing to a cartoon on the television behind you. She traces your lifeline with her fingernail. So many slashes here and here. She takes a sip of water and then are you a child? What happened before you can reply she whispers Oh, I'm so sorry. She turns your hand to the side. There is another marriage in your future. She smiles this time you will be happy. He has been waiting for you. Someone is smoking weed and upstairs bedroom and you blink against the smell. Well you say Where can I find this man? She passes you a slice of apple. Take From a plastic container shaped like a bunnies head and laughs you're the witch You tell me. So this seems very personal. Is this. Can you tell us a little bit about? Yeah. Yeah, it's behind this poem. Yeah. The what actually ended up happening was well, I was touring, I guess I was touring the conjoined and I went to the, to do an event at the Public Library in Kamloops. And the events librarian there, told me she was psychic and started rethink my mom's like, she kept seeing dead people. Like she told me there's like someone over there that I know is dead. That's like, too much. Anyway, so she did actually read my poem. So I was touring the conjoined. My marriage had been over for a couple of years. And she did tell me in fact that I would get married again. And this would be the right one. Which is funny. My partner and I are actually planning a wedding. So I guess maybe she's right. So okay, yeah, that's a big scoop for congratulations. Yeah. And one of the things that I you know, I had a relationship sort of after my marriage ended, that was, I guess, I would call it toxic. And it was one of those things where I remember feeling so much like, shame and embarrassment that I allowed that to happen, like, you know, and I should say that my marriage was actually a pretty good marriage, I get along really well, with my ex husband, we co parent really well. It's one of my best friends. We're like, Burton, Ernie, which is why we're no longer married, quite honestly. But yeah, that's okay. For a co parents situation. It's great. And so I just felt like, you know, I know better, but nobody knows better, right? Yeah, everybody falls into these things. So there was a lot of sort of that tour when I was touring the conjoined and doing all this stuff. And, you know, there was a lot of sort of, it was time by myself away from my child, which doesn't happen a lot. And it was a time where, you know, I really had the space to like, figure out who I was what I wanted. Because in the aftermath of a divorce, you don't really know what everything's kind of a mess, and you're just trying to make do and you're just trying to get your childcare sorted and, you know, figure out what you're going to do for work where you're going to live. But then, after all that settled, what is it that we want from our lives, and it's hard to know, and sometimes it takes a psychic public librarian to tell you what's going to happen before you figure that out. I'm glad she said good things, because that's really like, especially if you didn't ask for it. And like she came up and said, Oh, she's she was she was really funny. But I was I liked that. She did say good things. She She knew I'd been through a hard time. And she so weird, she knew I'd been through a hard time and she was like, No, everything's gonna be fine. Don't worry. I kind of believe in that stuff. I mean, I do not. I think we all have that within us. But maybe, yeah, as someone who has definitely talked to the dead ghosts of my grandparents and my dad, I kind of also believe it. Like, there's a part like I. So a lot of the times when things like that happened to me, I think it's a dream. Because always happens at night. Are you saying, you know, it's a fluke, you didn't know I'm just seeing things you're not. I have an overactive imagination. Everyone knows Jen, just make stuff up. But like, and then and then later, you're like, Wait, did I actually talk to him? Like, dead grandma? Think I did. And okay, so I have a couple more things. I want to ask you. I wanted to find out. Okay, you have a new book coming out in the spring. So tell us about that. It's coming out, actually. All 22. So okay, so it's a little later. I hope it's delayed everything. Oh, the supply chain is wrapped. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is a it's a book. It's called super fan. And it's a collection of memoir essays. But they're also kind of like chapters about my relationship to pop culture and how particular pop culture moments meant something to specific moments in my life. So like, for example, I write a lot about one of my early chapters is about as a child, I was like obsessed with Anna Green Gables. And I relied on those books really heavily during the time that my dad was dying. He died of cancer when I was 12. Yeah, so then there's that and then, you know, there's the time when like, Princess Diana died, and I was like, 21, and what that meant, and so there's Yeah, so that's what the book is. We're mostly finished. It's finished. It just needs edits. It's finished. It's like It's like 80% edited now. So there you go. You said, you know, it's funny I did. Um, I'm going to be talking about in a future podcast day. I read brat. Have you read that? It's Andrew McCarthy's, well, I'm a little bit older than you. And he was like, I mean, he was the dreamboat. He was he was and I am so disappointed after reading that book because he's a person. And I kind of wish I didn't know all that now because I don't know anything about him personally. Well, I'm he's just a normal guy. And he talked about his insecurities. And he's actually gone on and done cool things. He's been a travel writer and done stuff, but I'm like, I just wish I didn't know that now. Because he's like the guy that had a poster on my wall. I actually mentioned Andrew McCarthy in this book, by the way, because really, and I don't know if you remember this, but he was in the movie version of the Joy Luck Club. He played course I know that that's right. He was Rosalyn. chows waspy cheating husband. Oh, yeah. Which was a very good role for him. Perfectly cast I have to say. So I do mention him. But I will say like sometimes getting to know your idols is not a good thing. Ethan Hawke did not disappoint, which I'm very grateful for. Totally. So um, I want to talk about that a little bit more. We, when we one of the ways I first kind of met you online, you were moderating a talk for the Vancouver Writers Festival. And you were he was speaking about a bright ray of darkness. And you just such an amazing job. I you had the room like, I couldn't even believe what was going on. Thank you. He was talking about at the end of his talk, after food and shelter. He said basically, the arts are the most important thing. And that might sound just if people are hearing that they might think that sounds ridiculous, but he made quite a compelling argument. Everybody was just did you feel Did you feel that? Like I really did, I just it's so I said this to you earlier, but like, I know that the audience could only really see me and Ethan Hawke, they couldn't see each other. Right? And I could see all of them. All of you. All of those faces. Like I had to scroll through the pages. There were a lot of people there I want to say like 400 or some or some some ridiculous number. Yeah, it was huge. It was huge. And I can scroll through and see people's faces. But even if I wasn't scrolling, I could see people's reactions and people were like, just I could just see their faces staring at their monitors looking, just compelled and like obsessed with everything he was saying. And you know, one of the things about like, online events is like people will say like, you don't get to feel what the audience is feeling. You don't get to gauge their reactions. Well, in this instance, I actually could. And it was one of the most mesmerizing, like things I've ever seen and like thank you so much for saying I did a good job I I really prepared hard, but I should say he is so easy to interview like he just you ask him a question and he'll give you the best, most in depth animated answer you will ever get in your life. Like he is the easiest to interview. So it wasn't because like you know if you if you you can prepare as much as you want, but sometimes someone's just not feeling it that day. And they're only going to answer you with one sentence, you know, but Ethan Hawke gave me the most fulsome he gave us everything he could give put all of his energy into it for that, you know, for those two hours, and I forever grateful to him for that. Because, you know, like I said, I've been in love with him since like 1989 and he did not disappoint me. did say to him afterwards I said so like if I ever see you just by coincidence at all, like the streets of New York City, and like I run up to you and like start talking Will you remember me? He said, of course. How can I ever forget I like Wow, he probably says that to all the interviewers, but still it was nice. He's like, if you're in New York, if I'm in town, we should totally have dinner and I was oh my god. I hope you have that in writing not what he said he would make he said he would make me a cocktail even really. Okay, so before we go I did want also want to ask you Do you have any What What are you reading now? Yeah, what are you reading now? Or Well, I always have books in front of me. I always have books all over my house. So we have right now I just actually just finished this Gutter Child by Jael Richardson. So I'm hosting an event with Jael Richardson, Sashi Bhat and Lisa Bird-Wilson at the Vancouver Writers Festival this year. Sashi's bo k is The Most Precious Substan e on Earth, and Lisa's is Probab y Ruby. They are three great nov ls. I just finished the The ost Precious Substance on Earth. I'm currently reading Pro ably Ruby. What I like about a l three of these books actua ly is that they give a lot of s ace to the voices of young wom n and I do think generally liter ture young women are not g ven enough serious literary sp ce. So I'm happy also, they're all really great, compelling rea s. And But anyway, I'm happy to to always read those stories. think you know what, young omen, they just they get ROM co s and they get things like tha, but they very rarely get lik a serious novel. And I'm so happy that Jael and Sashi an Lisa did that. I also just fin shed A Dream of a Woman by Casey Plett, the short story collecti n. I listened to your podcast on th t that was Yeah, that was a gre t podcast, I'm gonna put that n the show notes. It was. I tho ght you guys had great a great dynamic. Casey's great also a dream to interview, ask Casey a question and you'll get the best answer you could ever think of. But also a dream of a woman is really great. Just, I mean, even if you think you don't like short stories, it's fantastic. You can't go wrong with what I'm saying. And then is there what sort of is there an escapist show TV show or podcasts that you're loving? Or? Oh my god, did you watch the White Lotus? Yes. Ah, so good. I believe the White Lotus is the best written television series. I've watched in a very long time. Really? What what I mean, besides, it was wildly entertaining. But what What did you like about it specifically? They said so much about privilege and wealth, colonialism without saying those things? Ah, the wallpaper in the pineapple room. And yeah, everything about that show was about those things and capitalism, late stage capitalism. But yeah, the intimate story of the characters of each other, the families, the couples, whatever, the people who work there were still rich, emotional stories. But really, it's about all those things about privilege, right? And colonialism. And like, I could not believe the integration of the intimate story and the socio political story. It was, like rageous Lee good. Like if anybody ever wants to, I get this question a lot from emerging writers. How do I make sure that my themes my social and political themes are, are you know, Incorporated? Well, they're not. You know, I'm not being pedantic when I'm writing you know, this fiction or the screenplay or whatever. Watch the White Lotus because that is the perfect way they did it so perfectly. I cannot tell you how much I respect those writers. Who was your favorite character? Oh, well, you know who I like, What was his name? He was the one the young staff member that the manager was obsessed with. Really? That was your future favorite? Yeah, cuz he wasn't the idiot. His name was the actor's name is Lucas gage. And he I think was in euphoria. He's been in a bunch of different stuff. But he played that dummy California, bro with a dark side, like, really? Just so it was little The performance was quite little, but like, it was like every his movements were little his dialogue was little and I was like, I can't stand it. He's so funny. Like, just as face like when there's a scene where Jennifer Coolidge is trying to throw her mother's ashes off the boat. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that she's crying and like screaming at the ocean as they pan to his face as a look on his face deserves an Emmy Award. I'm telling you. I actually can picture it as you're saying. Anyway, okay, so I wanted to thank you so much. I'm just really pleased that you came on and, and I hope people pick up this collection. I really enjoyed it. So thank you for having me. This was fun. Thank you so much. Okay, bye. Thanks so much to Jin Suk von Lee, for joining me today. That was really fun, and I feel now feel a little bit less intimidated by poetry. I'm also going to be offering a giveaway of John's book. So look for that on social media. When hubback and I wanted to invite you back next week. Speaking of idols. Next week, I want to talk about two memoirs by two of my personal idols one I mentioned in this podcast, I will be discussing brought in a story by Adrian McCarthy and Billie Jean. All in and I was gonna to that one person surpassing expectations and one disappointed so thank you so much for listening to the next week