The Search for Clarity
Welcome to The Search for Clarity, a podcast focused on empowering clarity in leadership and execution. Hosted by Richard de Kock, a seasoned Cloud Strategy & Operations Executive Advisor and an Executive & Leadership Coach at www.coachingwithrichard.co.uk. This podcast is a treasure trove of insights for professionals navigating the complex world of business transformation and leadership. Each episode, we sit down with leading industry thought leaders, individuals who have made significant contributions in their fields, to dissect and understand the intricacies of successful transformation. Our conversations aim to cut through the noise, offering clear, actionable insights for senior transformation leaders, consultants, managers, and any professional eager to make a tangible impact in their domain. Whether you're looking to refine your strategy, enhance your leadership skills, or simply gain a deeper understanding of transformation dynamics, "The Search for Clarity" (www.searchforclarity.com) is your go-to resource for guidance and inspiration from the best minds in the industry.
The Search for Clarity
Unlocking Leadership Potential: The Transformative Art of Coaching skills with Julie Starr (Part 2)
Unlock the secrets to powerful leadership through coaching with our special guest Julie Starr, an acclaimed author and expert with over 20 years of experience. Promising to transform your approach to leadership, this episode dives deep into the essentials of effective coaching, such as the art of listening, crafting simple and open questions, and providing meaningful feedback. Julie shares her wisdom on why attention and intention are paramount in listening, and how simplifying your questions can lead to greater clarity and understanding.
Discover the hidden challenges high-earning professionals face and how misalignment with personal values can impact mental health. Julie and I explore practical strategies from her book "Brilliant Coaching," equipping leaders with the tools to foster self-awareness, intentionality, and a beginner's mindset. We emphasize maintaining a light touch in coaching, empowering your team to think independently while avoiding the pitfalls of burnout. This episode provides actionable insights to help you navigate the complexities of modern leadership effectively.
Learn to master everyday coaching interactions with the Stepping Stones model, a versatile framework for balancing questions and guidance. We'll discuss how to adapt your coaching style to meet the diverse needs of your team, promoting independence and problem-solving. Finally, get a sneak peek of our upcoming episode and stay connected with us on social media for the latest updates. Join us on this enriching journey toward better leadership and clarity.
Engage with Richard further: https://linktr.ee/richardekock
Welcome to the Search for Clarity. I'm your host, richard de Kock, and we are continuing our two-part episode on unlocking leadership potential through the transformative art of coaching skills. If you haven't watched episode one yet, I suggest you switch over and watch that first, because that's got a lot of good context for you before we delve into the details around how to apply many of the skills and so forth associated with coaching for leaders and managers. So check that one out. If you've seen it already, then welcome back. Let me introduce our guest to you.
Speaker 1:We are very fortunate to have Julie Starr join us today. She's a leadership coaching thought leader. She has over 20 years of experience transforming the lives of leaders and many others from across the globe. She's a best-selling author of books such as the Coaching Manual. Also, the book that we're focusing on a lot today is Brilliant Coaching, and she's also got a book called the Mentor Manual as well, which is also a really great read. So check all three of them out Really really good books. What I really liked about them is they've got a lot of really practical applications. So if you are a coach, check out the coaching manual, check out the mentorship manual If you're a leader or a manager and really, really want to get into the guts of coaching itself, check those two books out. But if you're just wanting to get some good skills to do good leadership and good management, brilliant Coaching is a book that you have to read, so I'd highly recommend it. Julie's also the owner of Star Coaching, and today we're going to be doing a deep dive into what the skills around coaching are and how to really apply them effectively as a leader or a manager in your workplace.
Speaker 1:So, without further ado, let's jump straight back in If we start to dissect this and get a little bit more down to the granular pieces. So what is we've talked about generally? What is coaching? I think we've sort of forming a clearer view of what it is and also a little bit in practice. If you were to start, if managers or leaders to start taking on coaching as a skill, I mean, it's not a single skill, is it? It's a variety of different skills that give you the ability to effectively coach. What kind of skills are we looking at to be an effective coach that you need to start building muscle on and getting stronger at?
Speaker 2:So we use something called the skill style, which helps us focus on kind of five core skills, but actually, and so those are things like effective listening, so being able to operate from attention and intention as we are listening. So we have a typical presupposition which is I'm either listening, I'm a good listener, bad listener, I'm either listening, I'm not listening, and that's not helpful. We talk about levels of listening. So in the coaching manual you'll see we have cosmetic listening, conversational listening, active listening to create space, but also understanding, the energy of effective listening being this combination, this powerful blend of attention and intention.
Speaker 2:So what am I attending to as you're speaking and what is my intention as I am listening? So we kind of unpack these. You know, if I'm listening in order to fix or I'm listening in order to, my intention is to have you stop talking and me start talking. It doesn't matter how brilliant my comprehension as you're speaking is. So we kind of unpack these skills. So we have listening, we have asking effective questions. So simple, open questions it's often a bit of a trip hazard is questions, because everybody thinks that a brilliant coach can ask brilliant questions and you get these magical questions that create miracle, you know eureka moments and that becomes the unicorn in the black forest. So don't you know?
Speaker 1:relax about it. I've never heard that expression. I like it, I think.
Speaker 2:I just made it up and so far more useful is the principle to simplify your questions, because complex questions confuse people. So let people focus their energy in answering the question rather than understanding the question. So we kind of help people just again relax with the need and the pressure to ask a brilliant question and just say, okay, just what do you want to know? What's interesting at that point, what can help them get to the next stage of their understanding? So there's listening, there's questioning, there's building rapport, because rapport garners openness and trust and influence Within the role of a manager is the ability to give messages of constructive feedback and so being comfortable in being able to point at poor performance, poor behavior, inappropriate behavior, whatever it might be, and do that in a comfortable way.
Speaker 2:That is a dialogue, um, you know it is a conversation rather than a diatribe being a lecture from me to you, um, and employ these skills of listening and questioning to help facilitate that whole, uh, that whole um conversation. So there is, and you know there's, the ability to flex my style. So, as you said before, it's not simply I tell or I ask. There are different behaviors that sit across this scale of influence. So there's all these skills that we can offer people, and we do that really effectively. We found ways to do that. What was frustrating for us in the early years was that role will overrule the use of these skills and behaviors.
Speaker 2:Because obviously you can give me the skills that allows me to express the behavior. But if my beliefs and values say I need to look like I'm the boss in the conversation, I need to be in charge. I need to be seen to'm the boss in the conversation, I need to be in charge. I need to be seen to be in control of the situation. I need to be able to be seen as the most intelligent person in the room, or the smartest, or the one that can always have the solutions. Then when you ask me to sit back and ask somebody questions like well, what options do you have? Or what have you already tried? So what could work better? Or what would the consequence of that be? My ego starts to get involved, which is you're sounding dumb, you're sounding like you don't know anything, and so we kind of have to relax that for an individual to be able to help them employ the behaviors.
Speaker 1:I think that's also a problem with the system that someone resides in, I mean the culture, et cetera, and I can imagine the mental hurdle it is to try and overcome that within a system that frowns upon that behavior. You know a very competitive, highly political environment it's. I mean, how would you see a leader in a very politically charged sort of cutthroat environment start to transition to these types of new skills?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting that you ask that, because it brings us back to the subject of authenticity, doesn't it? So? If I see, this is how the system is that it seems to be competitive. It seems to be dog eat dog. It seems to be it seems to be dog eat dog. It seems to be about pushing yourself forward, about taking the credit, being the person that is being perceived as the hero in the situation.
Speaker 2:Do I want to moderate my behavior within that? To say I absolutely understand that there is a need for me to be known, to have some profile, to be seen as a contribution in the environment, and there are things I will and won't do. And I want to have my team shine and I want people to want to work for me. That do I want to the people around me. And what is my service and contribution? What is the legacy I leave in people's careers and how do I feel about that?
Speaker 2:And then trust to the system that says at some point it might be a longer game, but at some point I'll start to garner such good feeling towards me or people will start to notice I'm a different kind of leader and I'm happy to wait for that rather than kind of try and climb over other people and claim credit, credit and you know, hopefully those, those old, old models, those old paradigms are falling away as people start to think for themselves a little bit more sure, yeah, and our next, our next podcast will be focusing a lot on, uh, navigating political environments and so forth.
Speaker 1:So yeah, do yeah do catch that, because I think we'll unpack some of those those. Well, it's a tricky one because the fear and getting over that fear is, I think I mean, I suppose it comes back to, and it's a difficult one to unpack in this session not really the focus for us, but those difficult choices you have to make. You know, if you're in a system that is just not conducive to your development and your growth and your values, there's that tricky decision you need to start looking at. Well, how do you.
Speaker 2:It really is, and it calls into not just authenticity but integrity there we go, absolutely, you know that, how do I feel about myself within this system?
Speaker 2:and I had some way back when I was a management consultant, and all of that game playing and all of that trying to get. I recognize it all and I played all of that game and there was one particular day when I was asked to do something to somebody else and I was devastated to have to do it and I made the decision then. It was one of those catalytic experiences, very galvanizing experiences. It says this is not for me, I will not do this, this is not who I am and I care not of the consequence now, because I won't do that ever again. It's not, you know, I can't Because we have to live with ourselves, don't we? So yeah, we each have our own journey, and this is the journey towards authentic leadership. That says what am I navigating? What star am I navigating from? Is it mine or is it? You know, the constellation that surrounds me?
Speaker 1:And I think there's quite a bit of evidence out there from research that sort of illustrates that the more complexity is growing, the more you're trying to control that complexity, the more mental health and mental illness is starting to show.
Speaker 2:That's what I've seen. That's what I've seen.
Speaker 1:Integrity. You're living a life that is not aligned to your integrity, your values, massive depression. You can be earning huge amounts of money, but the life you live, doesn't you know, you can't get happiness because, you're just not a happy person. So yeah, the research is definitely reflecting that nowadays, I think, more so than ever.
Speaker 2:You would be surprised. I do a lot of one-to-one coaching, very senior exec levels. Be surprised. The mental health issues of people people at that, like you know, people that are earning literally millions of pounds, um, or millions of dollars and panic attacks, anxiety, depression, yeah it, I it's, it's not.
Speaker 1:That's not getting any better and you were a project manager, if I remember correctly, before. Yes, long time ago, long time ago, long time ago.
Speaker 2:Change manager yeah, back in the days of things like BPR and business process re-engineering. And yeah, those were the days.
Speaker 1:They were indeed. So coming back to. I mean, I think we started to talk about some of the challenges leaders would have or face when trying to apply and adopt these skills and put these skills into practice. We'd spoken about, I think, probably one of the more difficult ones, one of the trickier ones. That doesn't have a very clear resolution as such, but what are the types of challenges might leaders be running into when trying to do this and trying to put these things into practice?
Speaker 2:well, multiple. So, um, this is why it's good to. This is why I wrote brilliant coaching was to give managers easy access and things and tips and tricks and things to do and bite-sized ideas to try in a conversation. We have this idea of you start covert or overt. So covert means, oh, I've read a bit of a book. I'm going to try and not speak so much in a conversation. I'm going to try and sit on my hands and just not give all the answers. I'm just going to use silence. That would be a place to start. Use some silence.
Speaker 2:Listen, at some point we come up against ourselves. We come up against our beliefs, our limitations, our ego's need to fix, to sort to control, to get ahead in the conversation, to be seen as useful in the conversation in a certain way. So at some point we come up against ourselves. So it's this journey of self-awareness that then lays the ground for change really.
Speaker 2:So, through intention, I intend to help people think and act for themselves in this conversation, or I intend to give more space for the thoughts of the other, or I intend to facilitate somebody else's problem-solving process and I'm willing to take a backseat in terms of my experience and my advice and my ideas for a while, not saying that I won't ever give them, but I'm just willing to play with doing something different in a conversation, having a different style of contribution, in order to see what comes of that. So I think it's good to adopt a novice mindset of I'm just going to play with this, I'm just going to have, and if I don't enjoy it, if it's not working with this individual in particular, I'm just going to go back to what I was already doing, because that kind of works. So I think, staying, you know, using it as an experiment, using, you know, having this. Okay, I'm going to do this divine experiment. Which is what, if I didn't tell everybody what the answer was all of the time, what would happen?
Speaker 2:Right, Just that, just that, just that you don't have to rub yourself out and draw yourself again into this perfect, excellent, amazing coach.
Speaker 1:And I think it's great to mention at this stage. If you get this book Brilliant Coaching, what I loved about it is the practical application. You'll see that within every section there's a nice little in a nutshell or a nice little exercise that you can do for every single one of the skills that really make this very accessible and a very practical read and very practical to apply. And, Julie, you've provided a tremendous amount of resources for free online as well.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And videos to help with these things. You've got examples in the book around the conversations that a manager and a constituent might be having. Yeah, dialogue. Dialogue. There we go To illustrate the application of many of the things. If you're wanting to get started, Julie, you've given all the tools necessary to get the best start at going at this that anyone could possibly have, so I'll put the details in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and it's there. I mean, you're heavily referenced in the coaching arena as one of the thought leaders, so I will put all the links and the details in the transcriptions et cetera for everyone to use.
Speaker 1:And I definitely recommend people make use of it because I've seen tremendous benefit from those books. They're very, very accessible and easy to use. Let's talk about some of the scenarios in which you would start to apply these coaching things. My tutor and mentor in coaching, James McLeod, always used to say you know, you haven't done a good job at coaching if, after the session you've spent with someone, you were very tired, you were exhausted you're not supposed to be doing any of the thinking, yeah, working too hard to control the conversation and think of solutions.
Speaker 1:So you know, that was a nice barometer to let me know that, oh man, if I'm exhausted after a session, I have not been applying coaching at all. It's very light touch let people lead, let people think and hold the space. Light touch, let people lead, let people think and hold the space. So, coming back to the practical application of this, you speak in your book about planned versus unplanned situations, which I loved because that is definitely the world we live in. Would you mind walking us through the thinking there? You've got a few models that you've got in there as well.
Speaker 2:I'll illustrate them on the screen as we talk through them as well. Situation where you think, okay, we've scheduled a time, we're going to talk about this and I'm going to get them to own, to be responsible for the outcome of that conversation, and we have something called the coaching path, which is our version of the grow model. So people will have heard of the grow model. I get really frustrated about the grow model because I feel it's too formulaic for people and it doesn't always create the quality of inquiry. And so we constructed or kind of gleaned something called the coaching path which feels more like the structure of a conversation with a bit more flexibility into it. So we have that for offline conversations or I have to be careful in this tech environment kind of planned conversations away from the workplace kind of conversation.
Speaker 2:Right. Then we have something that we developed which is called response coaching. So it's coaching as an everyday, in the moment, behavioral response to a question, to a statement, a problem, to a challenge. It's that coaching in the everyday conversation, because we realize that this is where the power is. This is where this ability to just orientate, with a coaching mindset, to ask a useful question to help somebody think, to encourage them to act. So it's that you know the age old people come into your office with monkeys. This is a dated example now, just even because of the context. Somebody comes into your office with a bunch of monkeys and the monkeys are the problem and they kind of leave you with all the monkeys. Well, you know, response coaching helps you have somebody take the monkeys back out with them.
Speaker 2:Useful for both styles of conversation is something called the stepping stones model, which you will have seen in Brilliant Coaching. The stepping stones model shows somebody how to traverse this idea of if I'm being less directive, I'm asking, or if I'm being directive, I'm telling. And of course, sometimes there's good reason to do both either, either in a conversation and looking at all the other behaviors that we can do along that spectrum that are more directive or less directive. So, for example, silence is the least directive we can be. Asking a question is pretty pretty less directive. Having a summary summarizing what somebody has said a little bit more directive than asking a question, because it's kind of pointing at somebody something you know. You have just said this, so I'm pointing that's a summary. Making an observation is another slightly more directive tool. I notice you haven't spoken to this individual or I notice you seem to be avoiding that element of the project area or the training or whatever it might be. So I've got silence least directive. I've got ask a question less directive. I've got summary a little bit more.
Speaker 2:I'm pointing Observation. There's a bit more of me in that, isn't there. There's a bit more of my influence, my direction. Next to observation, I'd have advice.
Speaker 2:Now, obviously, as somebody's boss, when you give them advice they'll often take it as an instruction, but it needs to be in there for completeness. So there's advice. You know, if it's peer to peer advice can be taken or left on the table, and then I've got instruction which takes me to the other end. So once you give managers and leaders one the understanding and awareness that it's not either or it's not.
Speaker 2:Either I'm coaching, which is asking questions, or I'm telling, which is being direct, and that then becomes right and wrong, which is hideous. It just becomes this scale of flexibility that I use to influence and I can move. You know, I can make an observation and then ask a question, or I can make an observation and then I can give some advice. You know I can traverse this in either direction and once you give managers access to all different aspects of this and help them build the things that because quite often they're really good at giving advice or really good at giving instruction or even making an observation, but they don't use summaries so much- exactly so we just kind of build people's muscles yeah, it can be, as long as it's not overused.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can be. If we overuse it, it becomes a bit odd for the individual. It's like like why does he just keep telling me what I've said the whole time? But it can be really useful breathing time for an individual to hear what they've just said and think, gosh, yeah, I haven't even talked about speaking to Jared about any of this. Why is that? Why am I not speaking to Jared? Oh, because I think Jared's quite a difficult, tricksy character. That's why. So yeah, surface insight, awareness, understanding. We give people space and the Stepping Stones model allows us to do that.
Speaker 1:And what I loved about the Stepping Stones model in conjunction with the coaching path, is that the flexibility of it, so you can adjust from you start from more of a coaching standpoint depending on the conversation. We're running through the scenarios now but based on a conversation, you can move between the silence or the providing of an observation to being more directed if you are feeling that the individual's not really taking the direction that they need in order to be successful, or if they're sort of admitting to the fact they're not sure what the answer would be, etc.
Speaker 1:And then moving back out to a more coaching stance after you've given that direction, if you will. So it becomes like a dance between the person you're speaking to and yourself. You know the level of instruction needed Because I think more senior, the more senior one of your resources would be, or your team would be, the far less instruction you would ever ever give. If you've got a very young set of people who have just started or entered into the workforce, they're going to need a lot more of that instruction.
Speaker 1:So I love the fact that it was so adaptable to those different scenarios, but you can still try and put as much weight to the non-directive coaching, the empowering side of it, as you would like and as you'd feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it responds to this frustrated manager that says this wouldn't work with this person in my team because they're just, they're either not confident or they they are quite stubborn at the moment, um, which isn't always the best, best reason to comply with their, with their attitude. But, um, it allows people to say, okay, not everywhere, not with everyone, with these people, in these situations, I'm comfortable to use these styles and I'm comfortable to build this flexibility. And then when I get more confident and comfortable with this style, then I'll start to employ it with these trickier characters that like to kind of sit on the stands and refuse to jump on the pitch in the conversation. So it responds to that manager that says this won't work because I can't ask everybody what they're doing. And also when people come up with lousy solutions. Because sometimes people come up with lousy solutions and you have to have a tool that says let me make an observation, I think if we do that, I think the consequence will be this or I think HR will have something to say about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can make an observation. And then I can say, okay, how can we comply with legislation and still employ this person within this period, whatever it might be? So I can put kind of conditions around solutions a little bit more. I can help people start to understand a syntax of thought. So yeah, ultimately, as the manager, it puts me back in the driving seat a little bit, in terms of when I step forward and when I step back in the conversation, and how would you know that you are starting to master these skills?
Speaker 2:Well, enjoyment pleasure. This is what we see from. People start to enjoy the leadership and management conversation, people that have been daunted by having one-to-ones or just dreading these tricksy characters. They start to really relish. We love to learn, we love to expand our skills, we love to enlarge our contribution.
Speaker 2:We start to see how much people grow and thrive and enjoy the respect that comes from these conversations of being asked for their own views, for their own thoughts, and then start to see people thrive, to grow, to accelerate their development in the environment For any leader that should be a leader. They start to enjoy themselves and relax in that system because, rather than carry the weight of this independent mindset, they are eased into this interdependent mindset and have the comfort of the system which is. Look at how dynamic this team has begun to be and I feel so good at such a you know, at being part of the, such a worthwhile contribution of helping to create the context by which other people are successful. Yeah, that's why we're still doing it all these years later is because it really switches managers on. It lights people up in the conversation.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I can absolutely see that. What would you say is the simple, most impactful next step a leader or a manager can take to start crafting their coaching skills to the point of one day becoming masters at them.
Speaker 2:It begins with self-awareness. Start to notice, in the very next conversation you have, start to notice your attention and your intention. Where are you focused in the conversation and what are you trying to do? And then you'll start to see, you'll start to notice your own systems of control, your own need to hear a problem, fix a problem. You know this egoic driver of being the person that's seen as the source of all the solutions in the environment and start to ask yourself questions. You know how is that working out for you? You know how much duress are you putting yourself. Do you have these parent-child or parent-young-adult type relationships, or do you have these adult-adult conversations? Do you feel equal in the conversation or do you feel like you're trying all the time to get on top, to get ahead? Because and again you can feel the duress of that in an adult, adult relationship with the people that work for you, the system starts to relax and that, and then the, the energy surface.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And so I think you know, if you were to take the single most important and practical message you wanted to provide, if this was the platform that you were able to send one simple, most practical message out there to managers and leaders who who are going to start this journey, what would you, what would that message be?
Speaker 2:simple and practical your key if you were to harness all, of all of your learnings.
Speaker 2:I would ease up on yourself. I would say that most, if not all, managers that I work with one-to-one and execs that I work with one-to-one are giving themselves a hard time about their role. You know, they put themselves under incredible pressure to perform and this access, the revelation of the power of the authentic self, becomes further away and this easing of the system is essential to the realization of that. So I would say, give yourself a break, just ease up. Striving to achieve the next level, I think, is less relevant than lightening your own load so that you float to the next level, so that through the rising process, let that be a natural thing. That says relax yourself a little bit, give yourself a break in terms of what you're trying to do and try and become more self-aware. It's know thyself, it's become more self-aware. And if the services of a one-to-one exec coach is available to you, that might be one way to support yourself.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and do you provide coaching services through your organization and on a one-to-one level?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we absolutely do. Yeah, we absolutely do. I have a very short list of people that I coach just because of everything else that I'm doing, but it's an incredible contribution to make in the environment. Yeah, it is literally life-changing.
Speaker 1:I'll put those details into the transcript as well, thank you. And of course I do coaching, so I will leave those details for anyone who wants to do coaching.
Speaker 1:So you've got so many choices. But, julie, it's been magical. I've really loved chatting to you and I will just again stress to everyone listening and watching this you have to get these books Again. They're brilliant and they will really make this whole understanding of the practices much easier to digest. The skills are really clearly laid out and articulated. So, read the book, start putting it into practice and consider coaching in in your journey to become a better manager with a coaching mindset or a leader with a coaching mindset. And, um, yeah, thank you so much for being with us for this next, uh, well, for our first and renewed search for clarity, and I hope that we have brought a lot more clarity to the topic. I know that, julie, you have definitely brought a lot more clarity for me, so until we meet again, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for the opportunity. I've loved the conversation.
Speaker 1:Well, that brings us to an end of our two-part series with Julie Starr. I hope that you have found it as informative as I have. I think there's been a lot of really helpful guidance and tips that have been provided, and, of course, the brilliant coaching book is a must read. I've been going on about it. It is really a good book to read, a really practical book to read, to start getting a lot of this practically put into place for you in your workplace. And you know what the great thing about it is. It doesn't matter if you're a leader or a manager. The book applies to just about anyone. If you want to improve your conversations, it's a definite book to read.
Speaker 1:So what did we cover in this session? We looked at our core coaching skills, so effective listening and how to apply that. Asking effective questions, building rapport, constructive feedback, flexibility in your approach to make sure that people don't think you're a robot, some challenges in implementing these skills. We covered discussions around mindset, beliefs, organizational culture that would be a challenge to apply. These Personal integrity and authenticity is another one. And then, finally, we looked at how to apply these skills practically in your workplace, and I think one of the important messages underlying all of this is that you just need to go and experiment with it, and you have to just keep trying, keep practicing, practicing. It's like a muscle. You build that muscle up. Over time you'll become really good at it. So that's a wrap.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed it and stay tuned for our next episode, uh, coming up in about two weeks. You're really going to love this one. Um, not going to share any details just yet. Keep your eye on the social media networks. I'll chat to you all soon. All the best and good luck on your search for clarity. I'm not going to share any details just yet. Keep your eye on the social media networks. I'll chat to you all soon. All the best and good luck on your search for clarity.
