In the first of a three-part series on concussion in sports, Technical Foam Services' Duncan Geddes interviews former Norwich and Wales striker Iwan Roberts about his experience as a professional and his thoughts on headgear should be implemented for youth players.
In the first of a three-part series on concussion in sports, Technical Foam Services' Duncan Geddes interviews former Norwich and Wales striker Iwan Roberts about his experience as a professional and his thoughts on headgear should be implemented for youth players.
DG 0:01
Hello, and welcome to the future of foam podcast. My name is Duncan Geddes and I run Technical Foam Services, the UK's finest foam conversion business, based here in Corby. I've been in the foam industry for 30-odd years so I know a lot of the industry's key players. We're all part of the global manufacturing and purchasing community, but in this busy world, many of us don't get the time to talk to each other and exchange knowledge as much as we'd like to.
This is the only podcast dedicated to the foam industry, so this is your chance to listen to the views of your peers.
However, these episodes are a little bit different. Over the past year or so discussions around head injuries in professional sport have become headline news, with rugby players taking governing bodies to court and in football, the Premier League introducing concussion substitutions. As the number of ex-professionals sharing their experiences continues to increase, I wanted to investigate how foam and protective equipment is commonly used for sports at all levels, and how headgear could be improved to increase protection for future generations.
Today's episode is the first in a series of three, where I talk to Norwich City and Wales striker Iwan Roberts about his professional experiences and involvement with concussion research at the University of East Anglia.
Welsh striker Iwan Roberts is best known for his time at Norwich City, where he became a club legend, scoring a total of 84 [league] goals [96 goals for Norwich in total, 202 career club goals] and helping the side earn promotion in the 2003-4 season. Iwan also had spells with Watford and Wolves, he played more than 100 times for both Huddersfield and Leicester and represented Wales on 15 occasions.
Future episodes feature Dr. Michael Grey, a neuroscientist specialising in neurorehabilitation, who's leading the research, and Sarries [Saracens] and United States flyhalf Will Hooley about his relationship with concussion as a current rugby union international.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe to the podcast on your favourite podcast platform, or follow us on SoundCloud. You can also stay up to date by following us on LinkedIn and Facebook. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
DG 2:34
Hi there. This is Duncan Geddes from Technical Foam Services and today I'm really delighted to be joined by Iwan Roberts. Well known to all football fans, Iwan was a professional footballer for many years. And actually, it's just going to show our respective ages, Iwan, but you are my generation. So you're the generation with Norwich in the early 2000s and Wales and so forth of that period and you obviously had a hugely successful career. So, let me start off Iwan, you're the guest on the podcast, tell us a little bit about yourself, please.
IR 3:13
I started off at Watford when I was 17. Played for six different clubs, played for Huddersfield, Leicester, I was at Wolverhampton for a season. They soon got fed up with me and then they sold me to Norwich where I spent the most part of my career really, seven years with Norwich and we won the Championship in 2004. The first thing I'd said when I joined the club, I wanted to get the club, try and get the club back in the Premier League. And once we did that, they gave me a free transfer, believe it or not, so I ended my career at Gillingham.
DG 3.58
You're kidding?
IR 4.00
Yeah, they gave me a free transfer. I was 36 at the time,
DG 4.04
Well you had done your bit.
IR 4.06
I could sort of understand it, but it still hurt.
DG 4:10
Yeah, I get it. You're back in Norwich now. Aren't you?
IR 4.12
I am.
DG 4.13
Do you work for the club at all?
IR 4:16
No. I've been working for the past 16 years, I've been working for BBC Wales as a summariser, pundit, whatever they call my line of work these days, predominantly in the Welsh language because it's my first language having been brought up in North Wales. Yeah, I came from a Welsh speaking family. I really enjoy them. It keeps you involved with the game. I was never going to be cut out to be a manager. I didn't love the coaching side of it. Even though I've done a couple of my coaching badges. It just, it just was... you've got to be passionate about something. And I just didn't have that passion and that drive to go into coaching. I got this opportunity from the BBC in Cardiff as soon as I finished playing and I've been doing it ever since and I really enjoy it, really enjoy it.
DG 5:11
So presumably you'll be doing punditry work then on the Euros coming up?
IR 5:15
Well, do you know what, word has come out that on June 10th I am supposed to be flying to Baku for our first two games, because we [Wales] play Switzerland and Turkey in Baku, Azerbaijan, and we will be playing in the stadium where... remember two years ago, the Europa League final was there between Chelsea and Arsenal and instead of common sense coming into it and playing it at Wembley, they got everybody to fly six hours to Baku. And then we've got our last game on the 28th of June, well, our last group game, I'm hoping it's not our last game. We've got our last group game in Rome against Italy on the 20th, so I'm really looking forward to it because I had a great 2016 in France.
DG 6.05
Sorry. So Wales... I hadn't clocked this... So Wales are playing Italy in Rome?
IR 6.09
Yeah, that's our last game on the 20th.
DG 6.12
That'll be a cracker
IR 6.13
Yeah.
DG 6.14
I mean, don't worry about the result, what a trip that'll be.
IR 6.18
Italy, they're the favourites to win the group. But if we get out of the group, I'll be chuffed to bits.
DG 6.21
Go on then, what's your prediction? How far do you think Wales will go?
IR 6:27
Four years ago, sorry, five years ago in 2016 we got to the semi final, didn't we? And we lost to the eventual winners, Portugal. Ronaldo, and Nani scoring both goals, but we had a great tournament.
DG 6:41
Listen, Wales have definitely got a chance of going quite far, you know? Because they always seem to come, come good when it matters, Wales. They've got that team spirit, that unity.
IR 6:50
We've got that togetherness that you don't always get at international level. I mean, it's a closer spirit, at international level that you would get at club level, sort of thing. Because at club level, you know, it's like you're with each other continuously, day in day out. I mean, I know some of my teammates better than I know my own brother, sort of thing, because I've spent that much time with them.
DG 7:15
Well, Talking of brothers, Robert Page was manager of my local football club, Northampton, for I think about a year, something like that. And his brother, what a small world this is, Robert Page's brother is a chap called Richard Page, who is Sales Director of one of our main suppliers, Vitafoam. But yes, Robert is intrinsically linked to the foam industry! He might not like that. But anyway. Well, Iwan, thank you so much for joining me today. Obviously, the background of our conversation, if you don't mind, is basically headgear in the world of sport. So you've obviously got a huge amount of experience and knowledge of the world of football, and concussions, especially in football, rugby, physical sports like this are becoming a big topic. And I think everybody recognises now that, you know, we need to protect a very vital part of our body. So from your perspective, and this from a football angle, how do you think football's approach to head concussions has changed in the last few years?
IR 8:29
There's definitely more awareness of it. I mean, the sad thing is, it's probably taken for us to lose some proper legends of the game. Over the last two years or so, you know, we've seen three or four from the England '66 team, sadly pass away with this horrible illness for it to come to the forefront if you like. It's one of those things that people don't like discussing. For some reason football clubs don't like discussing it, because I think football clubs think that people are looking for someone to blame. I think the FA and the PFA don't do anywhere near enough to help people who are trying to get answers, who are trying to help people who are suffering from dementia, the early signs that they've got. I don't think they do anywhere near enough to help people. But I think there's definitely more awareness of it now. And the protocols now are far, far different to when I played.
DG 9:38
In what respect because, you know, I mean, you obviously played football, what, 30 odd years ago, something like that, where the balls were heavier and it was more of a, I'd not say more of a physical game but, I don't know, there was maybe more impacts.
IR 9:52
It probably was more of a physical game, because over the years, I mean, you can hardly tackle anybody now without it being a free kick, so you've got to be, you know, they banned the tackle from behind a few years ago. So I would say it's not as physical a game as what it was 15, 20, 25 years ago.
DG 10:12
Heading is obviously an integral part of the game. Heading the ball, you're always going to have to head the ball. It's hard to see how on earth are you going to take out or reduce the amount of heading in a game? And you hear these ideas like saying, "Okay, well, I tell you what, let's not do heading during training", for argument's sake. Well, I get the logic there. Because, that reduces the head impact during training. But if you don't train something, when you do then head the ball during a game, you're not going to be prepared for it. So it's, I don't honestly know how governing bodies can take out such a key part of the game.
IR 10:56
I don't think they can, I don't think they can. You know, I earned a living from the game. Heading a football was a massive part of the way I played, you know, probably over half my goals came with my head. But going back to, I mean, the protocols, the tests now, are far more thorough. If someone has suffered a head injury or whatever. And I mean, I remember once at Carrow Road and it was coming into the last 10 minutes of a game and I got clattered from one of my teammates, and I was out for the count before I hit the deck, and I sort of got up in a daze. I was taken off by the physio and all it did was the old follow my finger, and went "I can see it". "When are you?" "Carrow Road." "Who are you playing against?" I think it was Bradford. Yeah, you are alright. Back, you go". After the game I can't remember the thing. I cannot remember a thing of the build up to the game and during the game. And obviously, I'd suffered a concussion. So I think the protocols and the tests are far more thorough now before players are allowed to go back. But I just don't think the powers that run the game, I just don't think because, as you just said, heading is such an important part of the game, I don't think it is as vital nowadays, as maybe what it was 5, 10, 15 years ago because I think there's such a demand on teams to play an attractive style of football if you like
DG 12.24
Keep the ball down
IR 12.25
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I don't think it is as, maybe it's not used as much now than it has been in the past. But you still have to head the ball, you still have to head the ball.
DG 12:34
Iwan, it's a bit of a shame that, because I remember the the Joe Jordan's, the Mick Harfords
IR 12.40
Yeah, yeah, big Mick
DG 12.41
Flying in, yeah, a few teeth missing, kind of thing. "have a bit of that", Get in!" [laughs]. As you say, that part of the game has kind of gone away a little bit really hasn't it? So do you think, because obviously in rugby, Steve Thompson the World Cup hooker, a Northampton lad, funnily enough, he's now sort of recognising that he's starting to suffer from dementia, by the looks of it. I mean, do you think what he's going through, because it looks like that's going to become a legal matter, do you think his action is possibly prompting the football governing bodies to take it a bit more seriously? I know it's a different sport but it's the same subject.
IR 13.27
Well there was a group of eight wasn't there?
DG 13.28
Yeah. Steve Thompson's kind of like the headline name because obviously he won the World Cup
IR 13.33
Yeah.
DG 13.34
And he's basically saying he can't really remember playing the final.
IR 13:38
I mean, I think something like that would have alarm bells ringing from the FA. I'm sure they would. But I just found it... Put it this way, put it this way. At the beginning of my career, no one stuck a gun to my head and forced me to be a professional footballer. You know, it was what I wanted to do. And then, from an early age, I didn't want to do anything else. No one. No one forced me to sign the contracts. That I did at every different club. Had someone said to me back then at an early age, "right, listen, these are the dangers; you're a big centre forward, you're 6'3", you're strong in the air. This might happen when you turn 50". If, you know, had they sort of warned me of the things that could happen with dementia, it wouldn't have changed a thing, do you know what I mean?
DG 14:30
Would you have still signed the contract and had the career?
IR 14.33
Yeah, yeah.
DG 14.35
See, that's the love of the sport, isn't it? That's the... I'll take the chances. I'm with you. I think it's very difficult, especially when you've had a successful career at the highest level. If you're, if you're suffering 10, 20 years down the line.
IR 14:52
I just think there's risks in any walk of life, any job that somebody does, there's always a risk and, you know, I have got every sympathy for for those rugby lads because that is, you know, that is one physical sport and I mean, not that there's a difference with getting a concussion from heading a ball, the types of concussion that you can suffer in that physical battle in rugby. But I just think, I don't know, maybe it's wrong for me to say, they had an idea of the risks they were taking, becoming professional rugby players.
DG 15.35
I think I think you have to go into it with your eyes wide open, don't you? Have you suffered much since you retired, or have you been a bit more fortunate?
IW 15.46
I'm dead forgetful.
DG 15.47
That's your age Iwan, that's got nothing to do with heading a ball [laughs].
IR 15.53
Exactly, exactly. I mean, in the line of work I do. I think that helps me a lot, because I have to have all my stats, my facts. That keeps my mind alert, if you like. But yeah, I am a little bit forgetful. Maybe that, maybe that's a lack of concentration at times, you know, but I've got a good memory for the most random things. You know, I can go to the shop and I'll forget something that I should have got but then I can remember someone's name that I've not met from 30 years ago,
DG 16:28
Because obviously, yeah, you're well known in Norwich. And you had a really long career and a successful career. Do you still get people, you know, saying, "Ah Iwan, I remember, I remember you when you scored in the 2003 game against...?"
IR 16:40
I could. If someone says to me, "can you remember this goal you scored?" And it might have been in my early days at Watford or Huddersfield, nine times out of 10, I can remember them.
DG 16:50
That's great because I think, as you say, if you remember all the highs, you know, to look back on your career...
IR 16:57
The thing is, because of social media now with Twitter, people ask you different questions on there and remind you of certain goals and certain things that happened during a game. And yeah, I can remember them, I can remember most of them.
DG 17:13
Well, you know, there's only a small number of people that actually win stuff isn't there. So you have to have the lows, it's part and parcel of the sport, isn't it?
IR 17:22
Most players have more lows than they do highs. If you think I played for 21 years, and I only won... I won the league with Norwich in 2004. Yeah, I won a couple of playoff finals with Leicester in my time there. So not a lot, really, not a lot in 21 years of playing.
DG 17:47
Still, you know, 21 years is a long time to play a high level as well, a professional game.
DG 17:53
The thing is I had no pace to lose did I, I couldn't get any slower. [laughs]
DG 17:59
Positioning. That's what it is, is all about good positioning, not necessarily about pace, you know, you were in the right place at the right time. there's a skill there.
IR 18.08
I was born with that, I was born with that knack, you see.
DG 18.10
Who out of the modern day players, right? So, kind of still playing today, who would you compare yourself to?
IR 18:18
What a good question. I'm trying to think who is out there.
DG 18.24
Andy Carroll?
IR 18:28
Hasn't played a lot over the last few years. But yeah, he was a very similar player, very similar player to myself. You know, Peter Crouch, I mean, Crouchy was a big tall boy.
DG 18.37
Yeah, he was always undervalued, old Crouchy.
IW 18.40
I'm thinking of clubs. I mean, if you were to say what team would I probably be better suited to if I was playing in the Premier League now. I'm being deadly honest. It probably would be, for myself, Burnley because of the way they play. They play with two up front, they play with two quite big boys up front who who you can knock a ball up. They'll flick it on, they'll get hold of it. So yeah
DG 19.09
Is it Chris Wood? Chris Woods is the striker there
IR 19.14
Yeah, he's done well. I would probably liken to myself to those two that they've got up there more than your Harry Kanes or your Cavanis or people like that.
DG 19:31
Do you think that from a young age, kids should be either made to, or encouraged to wear headgear in either training or school matches, something like that. So what I'm thinking is, is kind of probably from the ages of 7,8 and 9, that sort of age, primary school age, once they are starting to get into a bit more competitive sport. Do you think kids should be made to wear headgear from an early age or is something that should be introduced later on?
IR 20.02
I think be a great idea. I think it'll be a great idea. Yeah, I do. I mean, I've spoken about this quite a bit, since I've been working with Dr. Grey up at the UEA with the SCORES project that he's developed. And I do think it would be a really good idea because, I think that the brain doesn't fully develop until your mid 20s or something like that. I read that somewhere. If you listen to the FA, the FA will tell you, I mean, they will ban heading in the game for kids of a certain age because they only head it a couple of times. So what's the point? That's what they will tell you. But I think if you look at America, they banned kids from under 11, heading the ball. Scotland, they've gone down the same route. Now the Scottish FA came out a few good few months ago and followed the path of what they did in America. But I think, I think that would be a really, really good idea for kids from a certain age to do what they do in rugby, to protect your head if you're going to be heading a ball in training or play.
DG 21:18
Yeah. I was just about to say that because one of my sons was a keen rugby player until about the age of 15. And then he went off into the golf route, because it was a lot easier!
IR 21.28
Don't blame him. Don't blame him
DG 21.31
And a lot less painful. Yeah, yeah. And the the weird thing was, I would say in a squad of about 20, you will probably only have five or six that were wearing headgear. Yeah, because it actually came down to a bit of a psychological issue, because the kids wouldn't want to wear the headgear, because they wouldn't yet to be seen as soft, for want of a better word. And that's the only thing that would concern me is that for lads or girls that are playing football, if you're going to introduce it, I think you have to introduce it as a statutory requirement. So it becomes normal, like, for example, shin guards, you know. I mean, kids wear... every kid that plays football, wears shin guards, don't they? Because, you know, that's what you do, if you see what I mean. So I think if you're going do it, you're going have to make it carte blanche, right, from the age of seven, something like that. You wear headgear. The downside is then when you get to 16 or 17, I don't know whether you argue that they're sort of heads are fully developed, or their brains have developed, is that if you then take the headgear off, and, you know, they start heading. Psychologically, how are they going to feel about hitting a ball, or going into a tackle, when they haven't got headgear, it's like a bit of a, it almost becomes a bit of a hurdle.
IR 22:48
It does. Once you've done it once though, it's like if, if you've had a broken leg or dislocated your ankle or broken ankle, you've always got those psychological, that first tackle that you go in with that leg. You're always a bit wary of going in but once you've done it, and you've come out, you think, "oh, that was alright, I never felt a thing". And all those thoughts that you've had about, you know, fully committed yourself into a tackle, they've gone. So I think you've only got to do it once and you'll be fine.
DG 23:23
Yeah. Do you think there's a possibility that over the next, I don't know, I'm thinking 5, 10 or 15 years, something like that, if headgear becomes mandatory for kids that are playing football, do you ever think the day will come where headgear eventually becomes mandatory for professional footballers or adult footballers? Because we live in, we live in a world where it's increasingly more and more about protecting people's... I mean, do you think there could come a point where headgear, and it could apply in rugby as well, could apply in hockey because that's a pretty physical sport. Yeah, will there come a point where eventually every sport that there's a little bit of physical say, listen, you know what, you're going to have to wear headgear? Because, personally, I can see that coming. It's almost like an eventuality, you know, everybody's going to have to wear headgear, it just becomes normal. Like mouth guards. Actually do footballers wear mouth guards?
IR 24:24
I wish I had, I'd have my own teeth if I had! Some do, some don't. I've played against a few centre halfs who would pop a mouse guard in but it was, if I'm honest with you, I never thought about it.
DG 24.39
That's probably because they saw you coming towards them!
IR 24.33
Sharpen my elbows! The one thing I would say about, sort of, headgear and looking back at when I played, I wouldn't have been too keen to wear it if I'm honest with you. Only because of that natural contact. What you can control when the ball hits your flesh on the forehead when you haven't got something there protecting it, and you don't get that natural contact with a ball, I think. Where you can direct it, the power that you can get into it.
DG 25:17
Yeah, I agree it takes away an element of sort of, as you say, that the natural side of the sport, doesn't it? Iwan, just to finish off, you touched on it briefly there, but you're working with a chap called Dr. Grey. Tell us a little bit more about that.
IR 25:34
Well, I was asked to do a documentary S4C, the Welsh speaking language, the equivalent of Channel Four in Wales really. And the documentary was about the effects of heading a football and dementia. And not just at a professional level, but amateur level, both male and female. So because I'm an ex-professional footballer, 6'3", good in the air, they asked me to, to be involved, which I gladly did. And part of the programme was going up to the UEA, sitting down with Dr. Grey. He's got all these different tests that you can do, or you can do on a computer. And they're all quite simple little tests, you can do at home on an iPad or a tablet or whatever. But it's all sort of things that you have to try and remember, they time you and I suppose it's all about the message from hitting your brain and coming down to your hands?
DG 26.37
Yeah. Okay.
IR 26.39
And it's like... the easiest way I can [explain]. You can remember the card game that you had years ago? And you have pairs and they were all turned over and you had to remember where. It's very similar to that. Of course, they, what you do, you do these tests every three to four months. I mean, it has been hard over the last 16 months, because of COVID, to get involved as much. And so you'll do these tests, say in January, then you'll do them again in April. And they sort of check results and check your times. And if there's anything that they're slightly concerned about, there's certain things that they can do to help you and, and monitor things that might be happening upstairs.
DG 27:28
So is the purpose of the research then to set up a kind of procedure for sportsmen, footballers say, and almost monitor your brain activity, your mental... to make sure that...
IR 27:44
But what they do as well, they compare our results with the general public's as well, amateur footballers. I think we've got 45 to 50 ex-professional players on the SCORES project, but I think that he's got people from the general public who want to be involved, just in case as well. What they do, they compare results and go on from there.
DG 28.12
So how long have you been involved in that for?
IR 28.16
Oh, it's got to be over over a couple of years now.
DG 28:22
Have you seen much difference in your mental recollection over the last couple of years?
IR 28.29
No, not really. Not really no.
DG 28.31
Not even with all the gin and tonics during the lockdown?
IR 28.34
Yeah, I don't, I don't touch the stuff. Give me a bottle of Moretti or becks and I'm happy. I'm a simple man!
DG 28.44
Well Iwan, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed our chat. I think we're both in agreement that headgear, as a protective item in sports, is going to be increasingly vital. And I'm with you all the way, I think it needs to start from the kids. I think it needs to be mandatory for kids. I think especially as the kids are growing up and their heads are developing and their brains are developing. To me, it makes absolute sense to protect those kids as long as you can. And then when they become adults, as you as you alluded to earlier, I think, you know, adults at that point have the knowledge and the right to make a decision. If they're going to go into playing sports professionally, then they know what they're getting into. I think it's a it's a difficult one years down the line to sort of say "hang on a minute, I wasn't looked after by that sport". But that's not for me to judge. But I'm with you Iwan, all the way. Protect the kids as best we can and get headgear mandatory for the youngsters.
Iwan thank you so much, I have really enjoyed it.
IR 29.50
My pleasure.
DG 29.52
And good luck to Wales in the 2020s, in the Euros. Cheers.
IR 29.58
Cheers. Thank you.
DG 29.59
See you soon.
Thank you to Iwan Roberts for his time today and for sharing his thoughts on a fascinating topic. Whilst there's a lot to discuss and unpack from these conversations, I'm feeling positive that things are moving in the right direction, and I hope that sports at all levels are able to find a balance between performance and safety.
I hope you'll join us next time as I speak to Dr. Michael Grey, a neuroscientist at the University of East Anglia. Dr. Grey runs the SCORES project, an independent research study designed to better understand the cognitive health of athletes as they age. Finally, thank you for listening to this edition of the Future of Foam podcast from Technical Foam Services. I hope you enjoyed it. If you like what you hear, why not share it with your colleagues, and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.