Today's episode is the last of our three-part series on sports safety. Technical Foam Services' Duncan Geddes interviews Saracens and the United States fly-half Will Hooley, who talks about his relationship with concussion as a current rugby union international.
Will started his professional career with Northampton Saints in 2012, going on to spells with Birmingham, Exeter and Bedford before joining Saracens in 2020. In 2018 Will was called up to represent the USA Eagles at international level, and he was named in the squad for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.
Today's episode is the last of our three-part series on sports safety. Technical Foam Services' Duncan Geddes interviews Saracens and the United States fly-half Will Hooley, who talks about his relationship with concussion as a current rugby union international.
Will started his professional career with Northampton Saints in 2012, going on to spells with Birmingham, Exeter and Bedford before joining Saracens in 2020. In 2018 Will was called up to represent the USA Eagles at international level, and he was named in the squad for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.
DG 0:01
Hello, and welcome to the future of foam podcast. My name is Duncan Geddes and I run Technical Foam Services, The UK's finest foam conversion business, based here in Corby. I've been in the foam industry for 30 odd years. So I know a lot of the industry's key players. This is the only podcast dedicated to the foam industry, so this is your chance to listen to the views of your peers.
However, these episodes are a little bit different. Over the past year or so discussions around head injuries in professional sport have become headline news, with rugby players taking governing bodies to court, and in football, the Premier League introducing concussion substitutions.
As the number of ex-professionals sharing their experiences continues to increase, I wanted to investigate how foam in protective equipment is commonly used for sports at all levels, and how headgear could be improved to increase protection for future generations.
Today's episode is the final episode of our three-part series on sports safety. My guest is Saracens and the United States fly-half Will Hooley, who talked about his relationship with concussion as a current rugby union international. Will started his professional career with Northampton Saints in 2012, going on to spells with Birmingham, Exeter and Bedford before joining Saracens in 2020. In 2018 Will was called up to represent the USA Eagles at international level, and he was named in the squad for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe to the podcast on your favourite podcast platform or follow us on SoundCloud. You can also stay up to date by following us on LinkedIn and Facebook. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Hi everybody, for our third edition of the 'Foam in sport safety' podcast [series], I'm delighted to be joined by professional rugby player Will Hooley. Will is currently playing for Saracens, the well-known rugby club, So Will, thank you very much for joining us today. Really, really pleased that you've joined us. Tell us first of all just a little bit about your career, your rugby career, today.
WH 2:22
First of all Duncan, it's great to be on and thank you for having me. Yeah, but my rugby journey. I'll try and keep it short. I started when I was a youngster and I really do mean that when I say youngster, I was five years old when I first picked up the ball and kind of found a love for it. And really ever since then I played club, played county, played school literally just played as much sport, but as much rugby as I could. And I kind of felt when I was a young age, that I did want to become a professional rugby player and try and make it and I managed to achieve that, and am achieving that, playing for some unbelievable clubs. The likes of Northampton Saints. [I] came right the way through the academy into the first team there, enjoyed spells at Exeter Chiefs and then even at Bedford Blues and then here at Saracens as well. On top of all that, even though my accent doesn't give it away at all, but I represented the USA in the international game. So yeah, it's been a variety, my career as such, but I can't complain. It's been one that's given me a good amount of success.
DG 3:29
Yeah, you've had a tremendous career. You're a fly-half aren't you?
WH 3:33
Slash full-back. Yeah. Exactly. Slash full-back, slash wherever I can play. Yeah.
DG 3.43
So you've enjoyed being one of the glory boys I take it?
WH 3.45
Oh, I think, you know, from again, a young age, I wanted the ball in my hand and wanted to be influential in the team. It's, you know, I think a 10, flyhalf for anyone listening in who is a rugby fan will know it's a pivotal position. It's kind of the, you know, captain of the ship, you've got to steer the team in the right direction. And there's times when it's tough, but there's, most of the time, I sort of really enjoy that aspect. But I also enjoy trying to do that as well from the backfield at 15 playing a similar role to a fly-half. But like I say, you know, it's all about getting on the pitch.
DG 4:18
I mean, you played for some tremendous clubs. Will, I'm going to be completely biassed, here. I'm a big Northampton Saints supporter so I've enjoyed watching you play at The Gardens a few times over the years. And I mean, you would have played with Stephen Myler, you presumably would have played with Gareth Steenson, I take it, at Exeter, and obviously Owen Farrell nowadays. So you've played with some incredible fly-halfs. You must have learned a lot, a bit from all of them, as well. So you've also played for the American team haven't you? Didn't you go to World Cup?
WH 4:50
Yeah, indeed. That's got to be up there, probably one of my, or is the highlight of my career and, you know, I'm definitely searching to try and go to the next World Cup.
DG 5:01
That would be an amazing achievement. What's it like playing for America when you're based in a European league? How does that work?
WH 5:12
Not easy, isn't it? We're similar to other international teams in terms of having international windows throughout the year. Probably we don't have as many windows as the likes of an England or an Ireland or Wales with the Six Nations and everything. But we have the Americas Rugby Championship that goes ahead yearly, although COVID put a bit of a stop to that last year. November test window, Summer test window, we've got a very exciting Summer test window coming up when we're playing England at Twickenham, and then Ireland in Dublin at the beginning of July, which is very exciting. And yeah, logistically it is quite tough. I think we're so used to it. We have players coming from America, we have players coming from Australia. We have guys playing in France, we're kind of used to just coming in from all different sort of directions and, and just cracking on with it.
DG 6:06
Could you see yourself playing back in, or playing in America at some point because I mean, the American League is really picking up now.
WH 6:13
I mean, without a shadow of a doubt. You know, I've already spoken to my fiance. We're getting married this summer and it's kind of...
DG 6.20
Congratulations.
WH 6.22
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're hopefully, fingers crossed, going to have it all go ahead smoothly. But yeah, we've already talked about the ambition of going out there. We've got so many friends and even some family and. you know, I think like you just said, it's such an exciting league, Major League rugby, out there for viewers who don't know what we're talking about. It's relatively new. It's a bit of a baby really in terms of in the Rugby World, but I just think it's so exciting of where it can go and ultimately, maybe I'm biassed or saying this, but there's something about America and American sport. There's that nature of it of wanting to be bigger and better than elsewhere, and and if I can help that and bring my experience and try and push it on then that would be brilliant
DG 7:09
Will, I'm sensing a Foden and Will Hooley podcast, he because he started doing one out there, hasn't he?
WH 7:17
Yeah, well Fodes, bless him, he was always destined for some media gig. But honestly, I'm... that's the other thing you know, off the pitch as well, the connections you make. And one thing I've massively learned since getting older is that you can be so het up in your rugby career, but actually, you've got to look at the bigger picture. You know, the opportunities outside of rugby and everything like that someone like Foden has done that. And it's certainly something I'm looking at as well.
DG 7:43
Well, that actually leads me to my next question, Will, because you've taken a great step in terms of initiative and you set up your own podcast, started doing that, which is the Next Step podcast, I believe [The Next Game: A Story Of Transition]. And it seems to be that you're using your voice. You've got many, many contacts and friends in the rugby industry, and you started talking to people about, you know, what are they going to do after they transition from their rugby career? You've done, what, three episodes so far?
WH 8.10 Yeah, correct. Yeah.
DG 8.12
I was listening to the Brad Barritt at one the other day, that was fascinating. So you've you obviously, you've got a lot of high profile friends in the sport. Where do you think your career is likely to go? Would you like to go into the media in due course?
WH 8:29
Good question. You know, I'm really sort of keeping my options open. The old saying of fingers in pies. And just add another cliche in there. I think with the media side of things, particularly this podcast, which is called 'The Next Game', if anyone wants to have a look, 'The Next Game: A Story Of Transition'.
Maybe my advice to anyone out there is don't leave broken glass behind you. So if you do pick up the phone and ask for someone for an interview, they don't think "oh god, that Will Hooley is the most annoying idiot in the world". You know, my hope is that I'm a relatively good guy both on and off the field and respected in those terms. And so yeah, I've got some great friends that I've relied on and just said, Look, would you be interested to come on the show?
DG 9:16
as a cracking idea because I think what he shows, Will, is you've sort of stepped outside your comfort zone, haven't you. I mean, you've been part of the club environment for all those years. And what comes across when you speak to a lot of rugby players as they're coming to the ends of their rugby career is what they miss most of all is being part of that team spirit, you know, going in with the boys every day and training and doing all that kind of thing. So to step out aside, that environment is kind of really challenging you, I'd imagine. And if you're doing that now, while you're still playing rugby it kind of shows that you can have a good career.
WH 9:51
Yeah, well, I think I've always tried to make sure throughout my career that I'm doing things, you know, maybe that was my parents from a young age. You know. It was never a complete emphasis on rugby. Rugby I knew would give me, and has given me an amazing career and the people I've met and get paid to do what I've done, but I've tried to maintain to be busy. I've got a degree under my belt in sports journalism. Yeah, no, I got a degree a part time degree from the University of Staffordshire in sports broadcasting and journalism.
DG 10.23
You do writing don't you?
WH 10.25
Yeah. So like, all these things. And again, what I've found is if you put yourself out there. Well, it's not putting yourself out there because I'm always very wary as to how you do that. I think for me, it's more a case of right, I wanted to do something which I was quite interested in. I enjoyed stories. I enjoyed writing stories, I enjoyed telling stories, and I enjoy investigating stories. And it really sort of began at a bit of misfortune which I had quite a bad injury, I had a bad concussion, ironically enough, in my time at Exeter Chiefs, and it was really from that whereby I was doing an Open University course but I had to, obviously, kind of like stop and, and try and defer my modules, whatever the word is. And anyway, just got to the point where I knew I had to stop the year and it would have to continue on to another year. But there was a point where I got well enough, fit enough, that I was back, you know, wanting to be busy. And it was a media, the media guy at Exeter Chiefs kind of turned around like, "Would you be interested in doing some writing for the match magazine?". And it honestly, was really just from that, whereby I then got introduced to a guy who knew about this course at University of Staffordshire. And there was something really like, I gained a lot of energy and a lot of enjoyment for it through writing and doing these stories. And the next thing, you know, to cut a long story short, is I ended up doing a degree in it, I ended up then meeting the head rugby writer at The Guardian, and then getting involved in freelance work for them, going to the World Cup and doing a sports blog. So it's amazing how consequences, even if it might be bad, they can turn out to be good on the other side of things.
DG 12.03
Yeah, something comes out of it. I think actually, you've hit upon a cracking angle on the world of sport there because the profile of the players within rugby on the whole is a lot lower than the mainstream sports like football and so forth. Just referring to Northampton Saints. I'm old school, I still buy a programme, every home game, I buy a programme. And I find myself sort of kind of drawn towards the bits in the programme that talk about the players. And, you know, what they enjoy doing outside of the game and family life, and all that sort of thing. And I think a lot of supporters, rugby supporters, we kind of want to learn and know more about the players. And you don't see much written about rugby players. So for somebody like you to get the inside story on your, on your fellow players is really good. It's quite interesting to a supporter, we enjoy reading about you guys.
WH 13.02
Yeah, I think there's an element as well that rugby needs to... I think there's... two fold here. One as a player, you're very aware that you don't want to sort of... at the end of the day, I am a rugby player, you know. Where my bread and butter is, where I want to be the best at is being the best when I get on that rugby field and perform. So you don't want to let things get on top of you that, you know, puts you in jeopardy of not performing. But then also there's the other side of the coin whereby rugby needs, I believe, to understand that we are not actually a very good business. I don't think we're very streamlined. I don't think we're very current. And I think there's a lot of aspects, and I won't mention names or anything like that, whereby the top of the tree of our sport, I still don't believe is really streamlined in a 21st century way and doing the best it can for the sport. But I also think that players as well with that, we've got to open ourselves up for the fans to be able to say that, you know, this is me Will Hooley who you see playing rugby, but also this me as a person. That I'm not going to just identify myself as a rugby player, I'm going to identify myself as a person.
DG 14:07
Well, it's weird that isn't it? Because, you know, especially in games, I think, you know, rugby players themselves are actually accessible. I think on the whole and a lot of rugby players get that because there's still an element of the amateur side to the to the sport. And you know, you often see players wandering around the stadiums and so forth chatting to the supporters after the game, or even before the game. Yet you never actually see much written about them on the whole, unless you go to a specific rugby magazine or something. So I think that'd be really good. I enjoyed. I mean, you remember you wrote an article about Lee Dickson? He's gone off to become head of rugby hasn't he?
WH 14:50
Barnard Castle. Yeah. Lee is still a close mate of mine today. And, you know, I again you've got to kind of pick what you want to talk about, I'm not going to be talking about how Saracens has performed or Northampton Saints performed at the weekend as a current rugby player. I don't think that's correct. You leave that to the journalists, to the pundits. But what maybe, as a current play you can do, is just give that bit of insight as to, what does someone go through? For Lee Dickson, he was going through retirement. And I just think it was fascinating, maybe as a current rugby player to, to speak to him on those on those subjects. And you know, I've gone so far and even created a podcast on it. So yeah, it's something that fascinates me and hopefully from a current rugby player perspective, then it's something that's just a little bit different.
DG 15:38
Well, I'm all for it. So 'The Next Game' podcast. So who are you doing next then?
WH 15:43
It depends when this comes out. I don't want to give too much away. But no, I'm really excited about the next episode to come out because I'm venturing into the women's game. Yeah, and it's something which I'm not gonna lie, I follow women's rugby, but not in detail. And I had a brilliant conversation with two legends of the game. But you know, I'm not gonna say their names. I'll let you go on podcast, 'The Next Game: A Story of Transition', but fascinating. We talk all about the women's game and how it transformed.
DG 16.17
Sarries have got a great ladies team, haven't they?
WH 16.18
They have indeed. To be honest, that sport is going to a different, different stratosphere. You know, it's really exciting. I think, where, women's rugby is going.
DG 16:28
Right anyway, enough talking about, you know, Saints and Sarries and so forth! The reason behind this podcast and again, thank you so much Will for joining us, and as a professional rugby player, you are perfectly qualified to answer our questions on this. Concussions in sport generally are becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And it strikes us that foam, which is my angle on on this is, is used within protective headgear. But it strikes me that sports are developing at such a pace, yet headgear, protective headgear, is not being developed at the same pace. Now, I know, you mentioned that you use an N-Pro helmet, which I think, is that the most popular helmet within the sport of rugby?
WH 17:18
No, I wouldn't say it is because it's really quite new into the market. It has been around for a few years, developed by a company out in Ireland. And the thing that really attracted me to it is they've genuinely gone out of the way to search scientifically in terms of its design, but also the material uses, to basically offer the most amount of protection. And whenever I talk about it, I absolutely say it is not going to stop concussion. At the end of the day, if you were a crash helmet, you can still get concussed. You know, we don't need to go into the sciences of it. But in terms of how the brain moves, and whatever. But I think for rugby, we know what we're getting ourselves into. Rugby is a contact game, there's going to be injury. And I think you have to accept that. Ultimately it's not life-threatening, you like to think it's not going to be life-threatening, but you have to accept there's going to be injury. But at the same time, can we get to a point as a sport where we limit risks, whether that's law changes, whether that's protective gear, whether that's just coaching of the tackle technique, or whatever, to just make sure that we're in as a safe game as possible.
DG 18:31
You know, you mentioned you obviously had quite a serious concussion when you were playing down at Exeter. Did that have an impact on your mental health when you came back? Was it difficult to come back after that injury and still throw yourself 100% into tackles and so forth?
WH 18:50
I think it definitely impacted my mental health. I mean, if you spoke to my partner, I'm sure she'll tell you it impacted my mental health in general, you know. One of the concussion symptoms is kind of depression, and feeling a bit sort of dark and upset about yourself. That's just the nature of it. It's the recognition that's the symptoms. In terms of my genuine belief when I came back, yeah, there was an element. And it actually was the first time after that concussion that I started wearing a helmet.
DG 19.21
Is that what prompted it?
WH 19.22
Yeah. I never actually wore anything. I didn't, you know? I just, I cracked on but ultimately back then I remember coming back and I bit had some ups and downs coming back from that, from that injury. And when I eventually properly came back, it was an element of I'm not putting this helmet on so I can shove my head in the deepest rucks and, you know, in bad places. It was more just to give me that sort of right you know, a flaring arm, a loose knee or, or boot. You know, I've got something that's going to give me something in return.
DG 20:01
Do your teammates... Obviously, they know what you've been through in terms of suffering from concussion. I'm sure a number of your teammates have suffered in the same way. But is there an increasing desire for players to wear helmets? Because you still don't see that many players wearing safety helmets do you?
WH 20:22
Yeah. Again, I think it's really down to the fact that there is an understanding that unfortunately, protective gear is not going to prevent it. And I think that's the big word that people have to get around. There's no point setting a product where you're saying 'prevents you from concussion', because like I've literally said, you wear a crash helmet in rugby, there is still the opportunity, unfortunately, to get concussed. It's a contact sport, there is a lot of velocity and unfortunately, mistakes happen. I do think the shift in the culture of our sport around concussion has massively changed even in the 10 years that I've been playing professionally. I mean that just in terms of, it's not this macho kind of world whereby 'oh I've got a bang on the head, but I'm going to be a top guy for the team, going to crack on'. It's not about that, you know, ultimately, if I see my teammate who I know has had a bit of a bang on the head, I'm thinking to myself, right, right. 'Is he okay,?' I'm looking at the doctor, and I'm saying, Look, he's, you know, really keeping up. And in fact, we're in such a way with the sport now that we have independent doctors on the pitch, or not on the pitch but on the sideline whereby it's taken out of your hands. There's no ifs, there's no buts. If it looks like someone has sustained a head injury impact, they will come off the pitch, they will be assessed, and there's actually such a point whereby, even if they think they're fine, they will still be brought off the pitch and removed from the field of play.
DG 21.47
And rightly so as well, because I think, Will, obviously the years gone by there was a desire, as you say, 'I'll be alright, I'll crack on. It's not a problem, it's just a bit of a bang on the head'. And I think the damage can often be caused by playing on and if you get a secondary, smaller bang, and you're not 100% in the first place, it can cause a lot of a lot of long term damage. So just out of curiosity, when you sign up then, because we all know about Steve Thompson and the struggles that he's got at the moment. Do you sign almost like a disclaimer, then when you enter the sport to say, 'I accept I might suffer from concussion in the years to come?' How does that work?
WH 22:29
No, look, I got to be probably very careful. I've got to be very careful how I sort of answer this. And at the end of the day, what's happening with the likes in the media, which people might have seen around the concussion, especially for those guys. The game 20 years ago is so different to the game we are in now. Now there's elements of it whereby it's obviously more professional. Yes, guys are bigger. Yes, guys are quicker. And yes, the impacts are bigger. But the science, the medical care, the medical know how around the game is of a different standard. And ultimately, I think that was only going to be the case through time, because people need to learn. But also I think people are learning from the mistakes of the game and the mistakes of what's maybe gone before. Like I say, I'm certainly in no positions to make comment on where they are at and what experiences they've gone through. I think you're totally right. If you have multiple dosage of head injury, you are more likely to sustain head injuries or maybe longer term effects. If you're in a position whereby you gain a head injury, you're see medically properly, you're given the recovery time, you're looked after properly. And you do not return until correct. Then you like to think that those instances, such as the guys that are obviously in the papers at the moment, are going to hopefully not happen.
DG 23:52
Let's just say you've taken a bang on the pitch, you know, you've been taken off because there's a concern that you might be concussed. What sort of tests do they they do, do the doctors do to check if you have been properly concussed? It's like the old ones. You know, holding up in front of your eyes and that kind of thing. But what other tests do the doctors do to check you out?
WH 24:18
Yeah, I mean, probably not going to go through absolutely everything because we could be here all day. But ultimately, yeah, well, first of all, is the recognition of what's happened. And obviously bringing the person, the player, off from the field of play. That especially at the highest level, that we're in a professional game, a lot of that is obviously done by the team doctor, but there's also independent doctors who are there at the game to basically take away that kind of, well, making sure there's a neutral aspect on it, a neutral decision - that person has sustained head injury. And then from there, it's very much whereby if someone is unconscious or whatever, you won't even do what we call a SCAt test. You'd even just frankly, it would be recognised as removed, and basically that person recovers in a period when then he can perform the SCAt test. The SCAt test involved a whole range...
DG 25.08
What is a SCAt test?
WH 25.12 So there's a whole range of things, from remembering words to remembering numbers, to walking along a line, to balancing, balancing with your eyes closed, remembering those words and numbers again at the end, how you're feeling. It might be that you're nauseous, or whatever. So basically, ultimately, rugby you've got, I think it's at least five minutes, maybe even longer now. A five minute period of getting those tests in and getting those results. And then it's very much from there a decision can be made whether a player comes back onto the field of play. If I'm honest, particularly in the last few years the percentage of people who go back onto the field is very small. I think ultimately, yeah, if it's a maybe they get removed.
DG 25:57
Yeah. Yeah, play safe and stay, stay off the pitch, isn't it? Do you, I know you're heavily involved in Sarries and you talked about obviously, the women's team there. Do you look at how kids rugby takes place? And how welfare is of kids? In terms of head gear. Do you ever see kids training nearby? Do you have a view on should kids wear safety headgear when they're training? I'm thinking 8,9,10 years old, starting this sport, you know, that maybe their heads and skulls aren't fully developed?
WH 26:37
I think again, and I've said this now, a couple of times, it's kind of twofold. I think there's an element, if you give a kid... I know if you gave me a lovely brand new helmet and said I have to wear that, there's going to be an element of me being like, 'right, I am going to just throw myself around. I'm going to be Superman wearing this'. So there's an element that, I think one of the big things is coaching. How are we building contact and tackling and rugby contact drills. How are we building that into a player's of development? I personally disagree with people saying people shouldn't do contact until they're 16. Because ultimately, if you're only doing contact training at 16, you've missed a whole however many years of training and understanding the technical aspects. Because a lot of the thing is if I'm honest, Duncan like, technically...
DG 27.28
Bad tackling.
WH 27.29
Exactly. Or bad carrying of the ball or bad rucking, or bad, you know, in the air, or whatever it might be, or not understanding the rules, for example. And that, to be honest, is education. And I think that's probably one of the big things. And then if you sit that alongside protection, to make sure that maybe kids wear protection to get their technique better, so that if they do make mistakes, they've got something whereby they have got a form of protection.
DG 27:59
Will, I'm with you all the way. I think you sometimes read about this now with the professional clubs, saying that you reduce the risk of concussion, you know, there shouldn't be so much sort of full on tackling during coaching. It's all very well, but unless you actually teach tackling, and tackling is a skill, an art. There's no two ways about it. Unless youngsters and professional players practice it, you're not going to get better at it and therefore if you don't get better at it, you're going to be more at risk. So I think that's the wrong way of going about it.
My problem with youth rugby, and I'm speaking as a dad, who's my middle son played a lot of rugby until the age of about 15, was a lot of youth rugby coaches are, without being unkind, they're well-meaning dads, or maybe middle-aged guys that played a bit of rugby in their youth and don't want to quite give up, if you see what I mean. So their way of giving something back to the sport is to bring their lads along on a Sunday morning. They'll coach the under 10s, under 11s, under 12s and you know, they might not have the right coaching techniques in terms of teaching lads how to tackle. And I'm sure a lot of damage does get done in the early ages to schoolboys and young lads and young girls as well, obviously, and they just aren't being coached properly.
WH 29:21
And that's one thing. This is a sport that obviously both you and I love and want to see do well. There's always going to be incidents, unfortunately, and accidents and injuries within this game because it's a contact game, and I think so long as you can understand that and realise that you go into how can we best make it a safer game. And then that comes like we just talked: education, protection, and ultimately then understanding of what concussion is. So you know, it's all three parts.
DG 29:56
So on that note then, Will, you're in charge of the old RFU, have a bit of promotion here! How would you make rugby a safer game starting from the youth years? Is it more about... it's not just about equipment, I get that. It's about education. Is there enough? Bit of a big question this. Is there enough education given to youngsters about the dangers of tackling and the need to learn more about tackling from the beginning? Are kids... let me ask you this, are kids just thrown out on a rugby pitch and 'there you go. Tackle.' Because, you know, tag rugby takes them up to what, the age of eight, I think something like that? So you sometimes see these kids that are like eight, nine years old, running around a rugby pitch of flying into each other. It can't be it can't be doing them any good. And you get some big lads at the age of eight or nine, believe me!
WH 30:56
No, I think well, first of all, my loyalties are with USA Rugby so the RFU can do what they wish. But um, look, and unfortunately, it comes it comes down to where our game is at and obviously the pandemic that's been and, and the resources that we have for it and the money that we have in our game. It's all well and good us sitting here and saying this needs to be done, this needs to be done. The fact of the matter, is unfortunately, it's just not as easy as saying that and then doing it. I do think one of the biggest things around rugby at the moment is a lot of stuff is just popped out in the media. And I think there's also this element of like, we forget how good our sport is in so many other areas, you know, what it brings to you in terms of learning about teamwork, learning about passion and desire and work rate and sportsmanship and all things like that, you know. Our game is, is up there. As they always say, you know, it's the game played by gentlemen, the game that is for thugs, or something like that, isn't it. But that's the case. There's so many brilliant things of our sport, let's not get absolutely carried away with the fears around the content element. Because, for example, my kids, hopefully I'll have kids one day, and if they look to go into rugby, I will not putting fear into their minds of what this, what that. I would just make sure that hopefully they're in the best environment to learn, that they enjoy it, that they get the best coaching, and yeah, there's an element of protection around that as well, then I will probably be quite keen to advocate that. But I do believe the whole scare mongering around contact and rugby and hearing these things such 'shouldn't be allowed in schools up until the age of...' I just, you know, what world are we living in the moment? Rugby has been around since the 1800s. And we have some bad examples, obviously, and horrific, and I feel incredibly sorry for those people. But there is a complete minority here. Let's not forget about all the good things, but let's also focus on making sure that we're trying to make it as safe as possible.
DG 33:03
Will I'm with you all the way there. I think, unfortunately, it is the 1% or probably even less, it's the 1% that get hurt that bring 99% of the negative publicity. And yeah, there's been a lot of rugby played on a lot of pitches for a long, long, long time. And it is sad it's the occasional injury that gets all the publicity.
Will, this has been great talking to you. We've got to kind of wrap this up really. I mean, you're obviously still wearing headgear. I mean, looking at the Sarries squad at the moment, do you think that your squad players will wear headgear? Or do you think the squad players as they are at the moment are they quite comfortable with their own situation? I'm talking about professional level now obviously.
WH 33:54
Everyone's different. You know, everyone's different. Everyone has their own history. And you know, I've had some concussions in my career, a fair few head bangs in my career, and obviously I'd like to have not had those head bangs. But it is what it is. But therefore my past has made me educate myself in terms of why I would wear headgear. Do I think, you know, more players in the future will wear it? Yes, I do believe that because of what's being talked about and said and it kind of makes common sense. Do I believe that rugby players, all of them will? No, because at the end of the day, someone might have been playing for the last 12 or 15 years and hasn't really experienced much of a head injury. You know, it is a personal thing. So long as we are, again, we're educating and we're making sure that players know what's happening, know what's on offer to them, then I believe then people can make good educated decisions on it all.
DG 34:52
It's all about education, isn't it, Will. Go on then, do you think Saracens will go back up?
WH 34:59
Obviously, I'm going to be positive.
DG 35.02
It's looking good.
WH 35.03
No, no. Well, it's been a weird old season with the Premiership, then we had some cup competitions and the Championship. I can't believe it's the end of, coming towards the end of May. And yeah, but we're in a good position. Just got to get the job done.
DG 35.16 Yeah. And are you with the Sarries next season?
WH 35.19
I can't confirm or deny anything. So, unfortunately, I can't be saying anything on here.
DG 35:25
Well Will, wherever you end up playing next season, if it's with Sarries, I wish you all the very best. If you come back to the Saints, I mean, there you go, back to the number one club in England! There's a thought. But Will, I wish you the very, very best for this season, next season and wherever you play after that. If you end up playing in America one day, that'd be an interesting, an interesting challenge for you. I can see that working out?
WH 35.50
Yeah, well, stay tuned. You never know.
DG 35.53
Will, thank you so much. been a pleasure.
WH 35.56
Thank you. Cheers.
DG 35.59
That was Will Hooley. Please listen to his podcast as well, titled 'The Next Game: A Story of Transition'. It is an absolutely brilliant podcast, I always listen to it. Thank you very much Will for making that a fun and interesting conversation.
As this is the end of our series. I'd also like to thank Dr. Grey, and Iwan Roberts for their time and their insights. Thanks for listening to the Future of Foam podcast and I hope you enjoyed it. If you like what you hear, why not share it with your colleagues. And don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I hope you'll join us next time as I speak to more people from inside the foam industry, about the future of foam.