The Bossy Bees

Is Failing Forward More Than an Act of Bravery?

July 08, 2021 Eva Ogden Season 2 Episode 4
The Bossy Bees
Is Failing Forward More Than an Act of Bravery?
Show Notes Transcript

Joining us on this week's podcast to discuss the many ways of failing forward is Eva Ogden!  Failure is a tool for personal success. We discuss the many ways in which we have failed. How, as leaders we can help others learn from failure. Looking at how failure plays a role in culture change. Learning to fail is not an act of bravery but rather a work of progress to build confidence to fail forward.

In today's episode we are talking about:

  • How do we handle and react to failure?
  • Encouraging others around us to fail by showing up as our authentic selves. Supporting an environment of psychological safety that allows others to feel supported.
  • Growing out of the discomfort of failure. Adopting a growth mindset to view shortcomings as steps that lead to achieve success.
  • Failure as a tool to find success in Diversity and Inclusion (D&I) work and efforts.
  • How to lead culture change on your teams.
  • Making ""failure a positive part of your identity
  • 5 Steps to make failure one of the most useful tools in your bag to find success
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/thebossybees)
Stacy Whitenight:

Thank you for coming here today, or showing up in zoom today. Yay. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here. Yes. We have today we have ever walked in. We met in a D&I linked? Well, I guess it was through LinkedIn. We met in in one of those zoom meetings, you know about culture change and D&I sort of, just by chance, and we hit it off. I don't know. I don't remember how exactly it happened. But we were on the same wavelength. And we just kept writing it right out of that meeting and have kept in touch and you live. Funny. I mean, it was an it was an international meeting, but you live up the street in Greensboro, which is not far from Durham. Correct?

Eva Ogden:

That's right. So your cell Actually, it's a triad area, but that's one of the bigger cities that you people would probably recognize.

Stacy Whitenight:

Yeah, I mean, people probably like Durham, what? Where's that? So we're all in North Carolina. I'm so glad you're here today. Again, I'm very grateful. We're talking about failure today. That's our big topic. But I you know, I'd love for our listeners would love to get to know you a little bit better to tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Eva Ogden:

Sure. Well, my name is Eva Ogden. And I've actually been in the banking world for the past 15 years. And I've been in various teams really leading change, and, and leading new initiatives, corporate initiatives, and training employees as well. So I have a background in training. But also, like you said, You know, I have a passion for diversity inclusion. So I've also done a lot of work with nonprofits. And through that, I've been able to create or help create grants programs, mentorship programs, leadership programs for women, and also for the Latin x community. So I've been very involved as far as racial equity and Latinx advocacy through nonprofits. And I think, for all of us that has changed in the past year and a half, with all the social uprising that happened last year, and all the the knowledge about what's going on with anti racism and an advocacy for underrepresented communities. So last year, I actually really dedicated myself to learning more about D&I and incorporating what I knew from nonprofits into my organization, which is both Pinnacle, which I work for them, I'm a financial advisor there for businesses, and also through founding my own company called equity insights. And that's basically a diversity and inclusion and leadership consulting firm with a focus on all the things that we talked about with anti racism Latinx advocacy, and women's empowerment, which I'm very passionate about. So last year was one of those years where everything just came together, my nonprofit work, my work work, and, and my passion for for diversity inclusion. So because I do, and I am part of all these organizations, I do want to say that these are my views that everything that I expressed today is something that is a personal view and my own thoughts and ideas. But one other thing that I did do last year is I earned a certificate in diversity inclusion from both Cornell and the University of South Florida this year. So I'm really very focused on learning all I can about diversity, inclusion, and also just about leadership in general. I'm, I am a big fan of leadership learning. And I consider myself a leader and I always want to be on top of what I can do better for myself as well as for others. Yeah, you're, I'm so impressed with your background and, and, and your passion, you know, you really demonstrate what it is to have a growth mindset. And you're not set into Well, I, I know what diversity and inclusion is, and here it is, you know, you just keep growing and expanding and, and I love the crossover. You know, like, and that is something that we, you know, a lot of people are really maybe afraid to do is to take what they know here and I've talked about this in another podcast, like what you do over here is relevant to what you do over here, and the skills that you build there. You can

Stacy Whitenight:

Use them over here too. And it's not something that we always are taught how to do. And, you know, that is something that I've learned through my own failures that I need to, you know, that I'm learning how to do that better. So you know, and we're talking about failure here today. So what does it mean to you, like if someone walked up to you on the street, and they said, Hey, Ava, how do you fail? What is your reaction to that?

Eva Ogden:

My reaction to that is, honestly, I am failing constantly. I am always failing. And the reason why I'm failing is because I'm somebody that's always trying to push outside of my comfort zone. Even with with with work, I have managed departments from customer service, to training to an office. And every time I had to change and transition into that different space, I had fear and I had failure. And, and one of the kind of most interesting things that somebody ever told me was, no, you're not gonna break anything permanently, you know, whenever you break, we will fix It's okay. Because I remember going into the office setting, which is basically managing a branch with money, and with a building and with audit responsibilities, and I was scared. And she just said, Emma, whatever you break, you're not gonna break the system, trust me. Whatever you break, we can fix. And that just helped me to realize that I am going to constantly be breaking things. And the process is really about fixing it and learning from that situation. So I'm always always failing. In fact, I usually pre apologize. Just so you know, I may have messed this up. So I'm always gonna apologize for that be like, no, can you help me fix this?

Stacy Whitenight:

Yeah, and I think that's a really good tactic to sort of put yourself and others at ease is to be real, and say, I have tried, maybe have failed and broken something. Let's go, let's go ahead and work on fixing this together. So I really liked that tactic. And, and, um, you know, failure is part of a growth mindset, too. And to be a you know, we don't we're not always okay with it. And that's important, too. You said, I am, I'm scared, and I'm afraid. But you are, you're learning still learning how to be uncomfortable in that space. And that's important. So you definitely believe in failing!

Eva Ogden:

I'm all about

Stacy Whitenight:

In leadership, that's not always the narrative that we find, though, you know, like, we're, we live in a perfectionist, you know, aiming for perfection. society, especially in, you know, you work in banking, and I work in it, but I'm sure they're one in the same and, and it's all about perfection, you know, we get that narrative. You know, we've heard that for a really long time. And so as you're working with others, and, and training others, or teaching others and working alongside others, how are you encouraging other people to fail.

Eva Ogden:

One, like we talked about being authentic about my own failures, I think it's important because that sets the stage, it sets the background for how others feel about their own failures. So if they know that I am owning up to my failures that I am failing every day, just because I'm growing every day, then I think that sets the stage for others to fail as well. So one really interesting time of our lives. When I was leading an office, we actually had two mergers back to back, like within a year of each other. So we merged with the first bank merge with the second bank within a year. And every time you have a merger, you have every single system that is changing. And if it's not changing by a lot, it's changing by a little. And if you have 1000, things changing, even just by a little bit, you still have this wave of change that can be almost overwhelming. Honestly, it really is overwhelming. So what we did in my in my space, because I had the opportunity to do this is that I just did an environment that allowed people to fail. And we truly, we didn't judge each other. So we had these no judgment zones. And I took it sort of from the the Vegas thing, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas, or what happened in my office, stayed in my office, and we all knew that we could count on each other when we did fail. So if we made a mistake, we didn't feel like we had to hide it. We could come to either myself or another team member. And we could talk about what was going on. We could figure out what the problem We could resolve it. And then ultimately, the main point was to laugh about it. After we failed, we laughed about it. And trust me, we laughed a lot over, over about a year, because we failed a lot, there was a lot of things that. We made mistakes. And because we didn't know any better now, was it these catastrophic failures of people, you know, really, truly causing harm? No, not really, you know, they were more failures in Okay, how do I do this? I don't remember. Or, you know, what's the new process, I don't know that process yet. So it's all of that learning curve that we have to deal with, that really caused us a lot of stress. But there were those two things really made things magical for us. So one is the no judgement zone, where you are making this environment where people are not afraid to fail. And then the second is, you know, taking fear out of the game and putting fun back into it. So instead of being fearful that I failed, and I am a loser, we are just, we were you know, hey, I made a mistake. It's kind of funny that I made that mistake. So let's laugh about it. Let's enjoy the time that we're sitting here, with, you know, change just raining upon us. It's just coming down hard. And we have to figure out how to manage that. And I think the way that we approached it was visible in how we were able to cope with that stress, not only to ourselves in our own environment, but to our clients. So we would have clients that would walk into our office and say, are you all going through a merger? And we'd like, yeah, yeah, we're going through a merger. Like XXXXX. But But really, honestly, um, they can sense that we were okay with the merger, because we were failing and learning and having fun, even though it was hard. So I think that was part of one of the things that I didn't know I was doing it, it just this is how our environment was set up, I didn't think oh, I'm gonna create this environment where we're all just now just, that's how I lead. And, and it turned out to be very beneficial for everyone. Because we did not feel the same level of stress that I think other places felt, and that we, as individuals, we didn't internalize that failure. In our own identity, we really just internalize the victories. So we would focus on not the failure, but how did we overcome that? How do we get past that situation? How do we become stronger when we failed, and learn something from it?

Stacy Whitenight:

I love the I love that you're, you're talking about coping with stress. And so often, you know, I mean, me, especially, you know, at the end of the day, I know that I and you said, Don't internalize it. And I physically manifest this stress, you know, like, especially like, in my shoulders, and everything, and I'm not like, that is not rare. You know, I'm not saying that I'm, you know, a lot of people deal with that in different ways. And, and laughter is truly, like one of the best ways to not internalize it. When you say, when you open up the floor, and you say, we're gonna, we're gonna let these things sit out here and not on your shoulders, because we're going to laugh at them together without judgment. And, and that also really speaks to me, you know, a topic that's been going around my work a lot is psychological safety. And being able to lay it out there on the table really shows how you've, you've started to build a team that feels psychological, like enough psychological safety, and respect enough to lay that out there. And that is so important. And it's, you know, like, all of these things sort of build up into a really productive team, where, you know, and, and I was speaking a couple weeks ago on psychological safety at work and, and I said, you know, when you don't like, you know, when you do not have psychological safety on a team, like you definitely don't know, but you said, Hey, I, our customers feel this safety too. Like, they come in and they and they absorb that happy, you know, like, they absorb that confidence. They absorb that joy, and they absorb that safety and everything else that that that comes along with it and it's infectious. Right? Like when you have that that in place, when you have people that are not afraid to fail and you have that joy and confidence behind there. Your customers get that. Yeah, that's the Bottom line, you know, I mean, obviously, the bottom line is always money. You know, but but your customers keep coming back, because they have that that sense of safety. And so that ultimately, you know, it may be not maybe hard to measure, but you can certainly sense that, and it makes you feel pretty good. I bet. It really does. And that's when we knew that what we had was special, because we would have all these clients coming in during again, a tough time. And they would tell us, why are you smiling? Why are y'all always so happy?

Eva Ogden:

We don't, we aren't going through a merger, but we're just handling it differently. And I think that's the other thing about expectations, that sometimes when we're going through something difficult, we expect that we should act a certain way like this is how people act when they're going through a difficult situation, and then just bumping the norm and saying, That's not how we're going to act, even though this is a difficult situation. So yeah, there could be an expectation from my clients that we're going to be not as happy that we're going to be more stressed. And, and we could be more stressed. And we could kind of fall into that expectation. But the reality is that we chose how we were going to cope with that situation. And so we chose to cope with it through humor, and I mean, literal humor, like we would have days when I would bring out jokes, like dumb jokes that you just would say, like in fifth grade, and hit one of my customers up with a joke and and, and then the next one would come in, and they see us laughing and, you know, we we tell them the same corny joke, and just this environment where people could come in and feel very at home. And like you said, psychological safety was right there. And the reality is that you can't have psychological safety without trust, and you can't fail and and admit to that failure without trusting. So you have to trust in yourself, trust in the people that surround you in order to be able to fail and continue to grow. So one of the I think one of the reasons why I really focus on that is way back in the day when I was in manufacturing, you know, you had the concept of Kaizen, I don't even know if I'm saying it, right. But it's basically the the process of continuous improvement. So you can have one process and it'd be really good, but maybe it's only at 70%, you know, maybe you can make that just slightly just tweak it just a little bit. And that could be, you know, the difference between a 70%. And a 90%. Return are the speed that you're doing something at or how quickly you're able to process something. So I'm always thinking about continuous process improvement both in the office as well as in myself. So in the office, that means that in order for us to grow, we each have to learn something out of our comfort zone all the time. And I mean all the time. So that means that we have to face fear, we have to do the do whatever it is that's causing us that fear. And then we have to figure out, how did I fail? How did I succeed and grow from that. So one thing that's really cool that I was, I was I've been listening to a lot of books and reading it says that self image is self perpetuating, and that we confirm and reinforce our identity through that experience. So I wanted to say that because the more that we believe in ourselves as acts, the more that we actually act as that. So we continue to grow, we continue to fail, but yet, when we succeed, that's where we kind of self perpetuate the identity. So now I've succeeded at being at this point, I've been a training manager, I've been a, you know, an office leader, I've been now a financial advisor, and all of those experiences build on themselves. So what I believe and what I see as my self image is really going to be self perpetuating. It can go the opposite way though. So if we fail, and we believe that we're failures, then that idea is going to self perpetuate as well. Right? Be really careful what we believe about ourselves and how we approach failure because failure is going to be there. There's no there's no person that will never fail. Every one of us fail at some point or another we are all human beings. So how we approach that failure and whether we do identify with it is going to is going to celebrate graduate, I think, really a key concept.

Stacy Whitenight:

Yeah, we all make mistakes, and I love what you're talking about, you know, I, you describe that and immediately my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, it's a self fulfilling prophecy and, and I've always really sort of, I've grown to detest this idea that, um, you know, Business is business and personal is personal, and I do not, I no longer see a separation of the two. And I think back to what you were just telling me, like, I have this nonprofit, I've done, you know, I've started my own business, I've worked in nonprofits, I've worked in corporate, and I'm taking all of these things together at this passion that I have into all of these spaces, and you cannot possibly believe that, if you do not have a growth mindset and believe that you can be successful in all those phases, then you're not going to show up in all of them and do the best that you can, like you have to be, like, as a leader, I always encourage people outside of work as much as I do in their own job is they're bringing that I want them to bring them home, their whole selves to every single space. And if they're successful outside of work, and they have a triumph outside of work, and they come into work on Monday, they are bringing it and they feel comfortable enough to bring their whole self, they're gonna bring that into their job and spread that joy and confidence everywhere else that they that they touch inside, you know, the organization. So I love that,

Eva Ogden:

You know, that can be the opposite too. So if you're outside of work, something is wrong, if there's a difficulty there, they're not just going to leave that outside of work to some degree, they're going to bring that into work and, and that psychological safety, again, is saying, Hey, I'm here for you, as a human being, though, as your boss, you know, not as a corporate employee, but really, as a human being Tell me what's going on because there's ways that we can help. And and I think that builds the trust and the safety more than anything else, speaking to each other as human beings? No, I think part of what we're going to have to do in D&I is, is understand each other. Well, each other's humanity, let me put it that way, is understanding each other's humanity, even across different ideas and, and different concepts of D&I. You know, we may not always agree with the concept, we may not always understand other another person's perspective, but just being human. That's the common denominator, we're all human beings. And we cannot again, I agree with you, we can't separate work from home. I think in times of change, it's even more important to have those moments of connection person to person that we actually used to go, I would I would arrange for classes, exercise classes to come to our office, I would arrange for us to work out together, we would go out on hikes, I would have people over to my house to you know, have conversations and and just bond over a drink. That is what creates those teams that are cohesive. And that's what happens when, you know, then you have this wave of change, where you already have a cohesive team. And then Believe it or not, there were problems. When we had all these changes, there were there were issues that we were able to tackle, but we were able to tackle them just so much better, because we had that trust in each other. And, you know, there's a lot of organizations where if somebody makes a mistake, they will not own up to it. And then what will happen is that mistake will multiply and can potentially actually cost, you know, life. If you think about it in a medical setting, if you don't have that psychological safety, that that willingness to, to be open to change and also to admit your own failures. You know, in banking, that's one thing and you know, it's important, but it's not a life or death situation. Whereas in, in the medical industry, it is something that could cause a life or death situation if somebody makes a mistake. So we have to be able to address mistakes and address failure and create that environment that allows people to to grow from those situations.

Stacy Whitenight:

You're talking about mistakes. How do you sort of, you know, how do you deal with your mistakes, like, have you learned to deal with them and view the mistakes that you've made?

Eva Ogden:

So, admit, like I said, admittedly, I've made a lot of, you know, what, I, I find that when I was thinking about this, I was like where did I fail? How have I failed like the big time failures, right and, and I've had them I mean, I had an unplanned pregnancy at the age of 20. I had my first and only son at 21. While I was still in college, I had a divorce. Very early on in my in my life I have not often transitioned, even though I have transitioned, I've not often transitioned with competence into new roles. I've always had to kind of muddle through the the the self confidence to figure out, Okay, I can do this role, sometimes I've been pushed into a role and be like, Oh, God, I don't think I can do this. I've done it ultimately, right. So when I think about my failures, I don't really think about them as failures, I think about them as these huge lessons that life gave me that they were opportunities, and yet I didn't like, like, you know, we talked about earlier, I don't really, and try not to identify myself to the failure not to attach my identity to them. I've attached my identity to a lot of things, and have struggled to, to, to compartmentalize that identity at times, pieces of myself that I thought were who I am, and in reality, not really. But with failures, I feel like, if you really think about them, those struggles are the ones that define you, those moments when you are down and out, and you've had to fight your way back. I don't really think about them as failures. I think about them as like these struggles, these epic struggles. Really bring you something even greater than what you thought you were, you know, they make you feel stronger than what you thought you're in the end, you didn't realize you have that strength and you found it. So yes, I've had many, but I don't really kind of focus on them, I focus on the end result and how I've overcome it. And, and sometimes actually, to my detriment, because there's so many things that I've overcome, like, even beyond, you know, having my kid at 21 or 20. You know, I moved here from Mexico at the age of nine. And I never think about how difficult that was like, Oh, I lived it. And I experienced it, you know, translating for my mom, just having all of these experiences that I don't even give myself credit for.

Stacy Whitenight:

I still translate for my mom.

Eva Ogden:

I did too! But but you know what I mean? Like, we don't actually and I find that too. We don't give ourselves enough credit for all of the the things that we have overcome, like, we just kind of take it up. Oh, you know, hey, and yeah, here we are tation. Everyone's like, well, you're supposed to do that. And I'm like, do you know how in credit, sometimes I'm like...

Stacy Whitenight:

This is incredible that I'm even here!

Eva Ogden:

It really is and we don't like, to some degree, we have been so successful, thankfully, that integrating into this culture and you know, getting the degree and getting the good job and all of those things that it's hard to really think about how far we've come. And I find that when I've done especially with my D&I work conversations with Latinx, community members that we sometimes think about all the hardships, but we don't think about just how far we've come. Like how much we've overcome, we don't give ourselves credit for that we have, you know, the chip on the shoulder sometimes of Oh, I have I've had to do this, and I've had to do that. But then we don't give ourselves a pat on the back to to say, you had to do this. And you had to do that. And you've had to overcome all these things. And yet, you're here and you are surviving, and you're thriving. And you're you're a leader for others. And what does that you know, what does that say? So I think part of it too, when we talk about failure is acknowledging just how much we've accomplished and just how much we've overcome. And I think that's how I really think about my failures. It's, you know, there, I've had some roadblocks. I've had a few and yet, you know, I've done it, I've kept on pushing up, move forward. I've done it with other people's help, you know, that's, that's for sure. I've had a lot of support. And that's something else that I think is really important because the more that I research on this topic of failure, the more I realized that identity and failure are very tied together. So how we approach failure is completely tied to our identity and how we approach our identity is also tied to failure. So we have to really be aware of that, because when we become aware of how failure affects our identity, we can then start to curate it, which I think is the coolest part about it, you know, I think, yeah, most of us were, like taught that you are who you are. And at this point in my life, I say, that's not the case, I say that you can always change, you can always curate what you believe about yourself. And that's going to change how you act. And the outcomes that you have is what you believe about yourself. I think that's really, really super important.

Stacy Whitenight:

I want to I want to shift a little bit since we're on the topic, you know,working with LatinX communities and and I'm sure you know, at work and and you run a consulting business for D&I, you are working with people who want to that you're trying to encourage to grow and learn out of what they were and and learn how to curate out of their discomfort. Especially in D&I work. You know, I think there's a lot more people interested right now. And, and, in trying to be self aware, they don't know what the steps are. And, and really, the first step is becoming comfortable, in discomfort, right, you know, like, you're not really doing any sort of anti racist work, unless you are very uncomfortable and learn how to be comfortable in that space. So this is something both you and I are doing. So I would love to hear how you encourage people to grow and learn out of their discomfort.

Eva Ogden:

So again, fear and failure, that's what people are facing when we're dealing with D&I. And it's, for some people, that means that I don't understand this, because it doesn't affect me. And so I'm afraid to say the wrong thing. I'm afraid to make a mistake, if I say the wrong thing. And so I really do. I tried to be very empathetic to that. Because that psychological safety piece we don't really talk about a lot is, you know, how do people whose identities are changing, whose cultural identity is changing, because now I used to think about this culture and about myself a little differently. And now I'm being told that I have this privilege, or now I'm being told that I am something or that, you know, my history is not the history that I thought it was. And so that is fundamental identity change that is very difficult for anyone to cope with. Like, I feel that way. I feel like, why did we know about the Tulsa massacre? Why didn't we know about all these other things? And now you're like, wow, who we thought we were? That's not who we are. So who are we? Right? So we have to help people feel comfortable in those conversations. And I think the biggest biggest obstacle is just that idea that I don't want to fail. I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm talking about when I don't know, you know, what pronouns are about. So people, people are going to shy away from D&I until we create that psychological safety for everyone. And I mean, everyone to come to the table and talk about it. So conversation is really, really important. Trust is important. And that's what I talk to my co workers about. And I just say, you know, I'm not here with all the answers. That's not who I am. I'm here as a sounding board, to talk things through, to possibly give you some ideas, but also to take some ideas from you. Because some of the hardest ideas that I've ever kind of come across are ones that make me think, and question my own beliefs. So I'll give you just an example. I was talking to a friend about privilege, because she had been told that she had white privilege, and she really did not like that. And, and, and I understand that it kind of set her off it triggered something in her. And so we talked about it a little bit. And I said, Well, do you believe that you have privilege? And she said no. And she said, No, I don't think I've privileged and I think the only real difference between you and me is that you think I have privilege and and you don't believe that you have it yourself. So that's like a limit. She was calling on a limiting belief of my own limiting belief that maybe be positive, believe in myself. That that's why you know, things were different. And I rejected that idea, outright. But, um, but I also really thought about that, you know, and I thought about how being victimized affects your identity, and how accepting that victimization can change how you live in the world, and what you go for and what you don't believe you can do. So while I don't really accept the way that she was sharing that, I think there was a piece of truth in there that sometimes if we are victimized by a system, that we then behave in accordance to that belief that, that we are victims, and we are, but we don't have to behave as victims. And so that does change things. So I don't have that concept all worked out in my brain. But I do think that we need to think about what we believe about ourselves, even when we are victims of a, of a situation and what we believe we can accomplish, despite that situation. So those are tough conversations, I don't know, really how it sat with her. Ultimately, I tried to just provide a different perspective to say, you know, we all have privilege, every one of us has privilege, whether we are cisgendered, or whether we are, you know, we are part of a specific community, we have privileges, it's just a matter of acknowledging them, and certain people will acknowledge them, and certain people will not, but I thought her pushback was really good. And that, and it really gave me something to think about like to, to, to consider how that does affect my own ability to go after things and to not be fearful.

Stacy Whitenight:

It's interesting, I, whenever I, you know, I teach a five week class on allyship - it's an allyship workshop, and I start the class talking about intersectionality. And I really encourage people to, you know, and I, I really encourage everybody to write out a location statement. And what I mean by that is, identify your identifiers, what is your identity? Are you cisgender? Are you uh, are you Why are you black? You know, what is your How do you identify, and like, location means not only like your identity, but where you grew up, like, I'm a Dominican American immigrant. And I'm white passing, and that gives me access to certain privilege. So, you know, and I find it really interesting and sort of through my own journey, I understand where she's coming from, because I've said, I don't have, like, I do, you know, I do what I don't have privilege, depending on what space I show up in and like, who I'm with? You know, I've certainly have, um, you know, I think it's especially an interesting question for white women to look at. And they may, they certainly do not feel privileged when they walk into the building an IT company, you know, and, but they forget, you know, we forget, or they just don't even realize that, you know, when the white woman walks in to the it building, you know, she has limited privileges, you know, she feels it, you know, there's a glass ceiling there, you know, becoming president, we've seen it, you know, like, there's a glass ceiling there. But they, you know, we forget that the gap between here with the white with a white woman walking into the building and a black or brown woman or an indigenous woman walking into the building, the gap is bigger, we have proof, you know, when a white woman goes into deliver a child, yeah, there's there are privileges that she does not have that her white, you know, partner, male partner may have, you know, in health care, and so we're not, you know, like, what I encourage, especially white, you know, white feminists, you know, to look at is, it's not good enough for you, but you have to remember, it is really not good for us black and brown women, and you have to, you have to reach back and pull us up. Because if you're talking about equality, it's everybody, it's everybody or nobody. And that's why we have gotten nowhere because it's everybody, or nobody. And so I like that, you know, that that her sponsz made you kind of step back and I have taken a step back, you know, where I've been called out on making a statement similar to that and, and, you know, my own husband has been like, Yeah, you've had to work extra hard. But because you literally are white passing, you've kind of did it. You know, like, because your last name was very Caucasian, when you turned in your resume. They thought you were white. And then you showed up, and they kind of took a step back a little bit. And they're like, that's not what I thought. Or they're questioning, you know, like you don't, you know, they're your look is very ambiguous you like you look ambiguous enough where you can be or you cannot be depending on how you show up. And then he's like, so head is really a wonderful story and observation that you're right, we we do, we are all a victim of this system. Everybody, every single person, because we have not achieved liberation for everybody, you know, especially black people in America and brown people and indigenous people. So we're all victims of this system. Everybody, like white people, too.

Eva Ogden:

And you know what, to some degree, I think that if you if you read like James Baldwin, you you find that everyone's humanity is affected by racism, everybody, in one way or another how we how we are human is affected by that whether you're a victim, the victimizer or just somebody that doesn't really understand the whole concept and how they're, they're missing out. Meet, we're missing out economically, we're missing out personally, we're missing out as a country, because we have all of this, this talent that's untapped. And this economic force that's untapped. So everybody loses winning when it comes to racism in this country and throughout the world, really. And honestly, I'd, I would love to come back and talk about feminism as well, because that's a place where I have learned so much, that's a place where I have failed. And I have learned a lot. I think, coming from a different country, not knowing the history of feminism, not really understanding it as well as I, as I caught up, I think I've learned a lot through trial and error. And it's been a very interesting ride and back something that I really want to think about and possibly even write a book about in the future.

Stacy Whitenight:

Yeah, it's fascinating to me, you know, I've read, you know, I've read and discussed my fair share of, on, you know, on feminism, and my, I dove into black feminism, probably five or six years ago, that was actually sort of my first step in like my own self education and anti racist work, you know, when I picked up a Roxane Gay book, and you know, just seeing the contrast between just what you know, feminist work, the feminist body of work, black feminism, and then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I'm missing part of myself here and picking up Chicano feminism. And I'm like, they're really, you know, like, similar, similar and not the same, similar, but not the same. And, um, and I think it's so important to understand who you are, and where you where you identify, to be able to champion, you know, sort of how to walk that line of equality with everybody in tow. To me, that's just, you know, the, at the bottom, you know, the bottom line of feminism is, like, we're just trying to achieve equality. And, and that includes everybody, like everybody that, you know, when feminists at work are like, Oh, well, you know, we don't need them. Like, yes, we do need them, like, there are not only our allies, but we need to make sure that they're, that they have equal representation too, and equal rights. You know, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a wonderful example. You know, we would not have, you know, we, you know, what, one of our first like, biggest wins with ACLU was fighting for, you know, yeah, equal, you know, equal rights for a man and we wouldn't have that, you know, like, She's like, wait a minute. This is, this is what it's about. So, you know, it's important, you know, it's important to kind of make sure that we're, we're carrying everybody alongside with us, in all fights for equality. And we're gonna make mistakes, that's okay. It's okay to make mistakes. And, and, you know, before we, before we have to hop off here today, um, I have a couple more questions. And, you know, you've talked about how you can make failure, a positive part of your identity. And I also want to look at, you know, what, what do you do in business and in your work throughout, you know, what is a common thread that you see or try to implement. With failure and making it a tool for success.

Eva Ogden:

Sure. So there's a few things that I think are really important. The first is building confidence. Now, a lot of people say, Well, I'm not confident, or I don't have confidence in myself. And the reality is that they may think that other people just naturally have competence, and maybe they do. But But that's not the case. For most of us, I think building confidence is really important. And that comes from repetition, from doing something over and over again. So if you want to be a really good tennis player, you have to get out there and, and hit a ball a million times or miss them as well. So understand that that confidence doesn't come naturally to everyone, that sometimes you have to force that kind of push past that first fear that you have to have a forced to act of courage to build confidence. So you have to face the fear, do it anyway. And then once you do it, you have that confidence to do it again. And then you can do it. And again, and again and again. So building confidence is really important. Don't stop short by saying I've never done this, or I'm not competent in doing it, just do it and keep doing it. Because like we said, you know, your self image is self perpetuating. So the more you do it, the more you'll build that confidence. The second thing that I really think is important is focus, whatever that goal is that you want to focus on it and focus on it completely. So that is one part that I am really, really bad at. Because I have this creative brain that I want to focus on a million things. And so if we want to achieve something, we have to really focus on that one thing. And sometimes that might mean putting everything aside and focusing on just that thing. And when I was getting that certificate from Cornell last year, that is one place where I really did find that I focused that I put the time to do what I really wanted to do. And you'll know that you want something badly enough, because you're actually be willing to give up some other things in order to focus on that. Um, a third thing is curate your identity, know what you believe? Are your limiting beliefs? What do you always say to yourself, oh, I don't know how to do this, or I'm not patient, or I'm not smart, or I'm not competent. All of those things that you tell yourself, identify them, and then act as if you were. So if I identify that I'm always saying, I'm not confident, or I can't speak in public, what if you just pretended that you could, that's going to allow you the space to then build the confidence to say, Oh, I am competent, or I am smart, or I do understand math, that for the longest time, I always said I was I was the accidental banker, because I just never really believed I was a banker. So it's kind of a funny thing. But I've always called myself an accidental banker, because I that was not necessarily my identity of who I really thought I was, although I do love banking. And I've come to understand the importance of banking so much more now. So I think curating your identity and what you believe about yourself is really important. Figure out what are some of those thoughts that you have about who you think you are, and then decide who you really want to be, and, and change your thoughts to follow that along, if that hopefully makes sense. I think one thing that I talked about too, is creating a support system, and being around people who make you grow and to push you past your failures. So they'll see that, hey, maybe you're struggling, but they will push you past that and help you to move yourself forward. I think that's super important. I think the people that you hang out with can make a huge difference in who you become. And then understanding and last but not least, really is that failure is part of the process. So Einstein is quoted as saying, failure is success in progress. And as long as we expect, that there will be some failure on the road, that we will make mistakes, and we can then kind of mentally prepare for that, you know, expect it to know that it's coming. I think that's going to be key and moving past the fear of failure. There's a really cool quote that Napoleon Hill actually has in his book, thinking Grow Rich, and he says, No one is ever defeated until the feet is accepted as a reality. And I think that's really cool quote, because that means that you just keep plugging away. I mean, if you make if you make a mistake, if you fail some way, in your quest towards something big, then you don't have to accept it as failure, you could just say this is, this is just part of the process, I'm going to keep pushing, and not accept it as well, I think that is so cool and so fun that we can actually think about it as not accepting it. Just keep going. I think that's just, it's brilliant.

Stacy Whitenight:

I think so too. And I think you've beautifully captured, you know, and you're living You know, you're authentically living in a space and creating the space around you to really change this narrative about failure. And, and I love in your notes, what you what you took us, you sat here and, and one of the biggest things that I'm going to walk away with, and you're talking about changing the narrative in your head, and one of the biggest things that you said, you know, like, as you're curating your identity, and that's almost where you have to start you just start with yourself. You said in here, turn I failed to I overcame that. So changing the language is everything. It is change the language and and we start to change the way we see it. I agree. So thank you again, for for for being here with me today. I've actually learned a lot and i hope i'm sure our listeners have to and, and I can't wait to see all the wonderful things that you're going to do in Greensboro and the triad and beyond North Carolina too!

Eva Ogden:

thank you Stacy, it was a pleasure!

Stacy Whitenight:

All right, mucho gusto and thank you.

Eva Ogden:

Thanks. Bye bye.