#356 - How the Business of Podcasts Has Changed with Kathleen Shannon

Is podcasting losing its edge? The medium has been touted as the next big thing in digital content and media creation for almost a decade but the industry has seen major evolution in that time. Join Emily and Kathleen, as they share their personal experiences and insights on the transformation of podcasting from the perspective of starting a top-rated indie show to preparing to conclude the journey of Being Boss as we know it. They explore the nuances between indie podcasts and big productions, delve into the evolution of podcast monetization, and chat about how online business spaces have shifted towards a pay-to-play model.

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Transcript

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Kathleen Shannon: 0:46

Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners, and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host Emily Thompson. And in this episode, I'm joined by my friend Kathleen Shannon to dive into what's up in the podcasting industry, sharing how this space has changed over the past almost decade, and how it's played into the changes coming here to Being Boss. You can find all the tools, books and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with a friend.

Emily Thompson: 1:21

Kathleen Shannon is the co founder and former co host of the beam boss podcast joining me here for the first 240 ish episodes of this show with several one off episodes since Kathleen is a partner and creative director of Braid Creative a branding agency she founded with her sister over 10 years ago, Kathleen has always lived by capturing shaping and sharing who she is, whether that's with a blog post a podcast or on social media.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:50

You know, I used to think that those ball lip balms meant that like you were hot shit.

Emily Thompson: 1:56

Oh, yeah?

Kathleen Shannon: 1:56

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 1:58

As I'm putting one on right now.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:59

I know.

Emily Thompson: 2:00

As I hit record, I realized I needed to moisturize my lips a little bit and we got tickled and here we are.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:06

But now that I'm older, it just seems inefficient.

Emily Thompson: 2:10

It is and it's like maybe a little gross. Yeah, you know, I got this one at the hall like across the street from my office here as Walgreens. And it was like a fun like little peppermint like holiday one. And I was I went over there specifically for some lip balm. I could not find any except for two little peppermint balls, basically, and it's here on my desk and it kind of grosses me out but I need it. So here I am.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:40

The very best lip balm. This is this podcast is turning into a beauty podcast. Let me tell you all the things.

Emily Thompson: 2:49

Kathleen's got the secret.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:51

Here's the secret. I'm holding Being Boss hostage and I'm turning it into a beauty podcast. I'm Aquaphor you can use just like regular Aquaphor on your lips, but they also specifically make an Aquaphor lip balm. Slather it on before you go to bed and put it like really not just on the lip part of your lips but all the way around like overline.

Emily Thompson: 3:16

Like the lower half of your face.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:17

Kind of just smother the whole lower half of your face with it. Really just smother your whole face with it.

Emily Thompson: 3:24

Yeah, just all over. I recently discovered that Dr. Bronner's you know that castile soap, like pseudo witchy or whatever company.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:35

Pseudo culty.

Emily Thompson: 3:36

Started making a lip balm. It was that no actual culty.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:39

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 3:40

Pseudo witchy. They start making a lip balm and that is also fantastic.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:48

Is in a stick or a tube?

Emily Thompson: 3:50

Stick.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:52

Okay, I'm like now exclusively tube lip balm. Like I need it coming out of the tube.

Emily Thompson: 3:58

Oh.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:59

I feel like the sticks just aren't enough for this. You know, cold, cold north winter.

Emily Thompson: 4:07

Okay.

Kathleen Shannon: 4:07

I need it.

Emily Thompson: 4:08

To each their own. Okay, I'm hijacking this back.

Kathleen Shannon: 4:12

Okay, yeah.

Emily Thompson: 4:12

You ready?

Kathleen Shannon: 4:13

Bring it back.

Emily Thompson: 4:17

That was our little cold intro. We're gonna have a podcasts today. Podcast and lip balm because they do go hand in hand in a lot of ways. Right when you're sitting here talking into a microphone constantly.

Kathleen Shannon: 4:30

You have to have hydrated lips.

Emily Thompson: 4:33

Absolutely you do. That's how we got the started today. So you are on yesterday, as of our experience of this. But last week as of the audience's experience of what has happened. We talked about.

Kathleen Shannon: 4:48

We talked about how you have some tea to spill about some podcast industry.

Emily Thompson: 4:53

Kathleen's like lets hop to this.

Kathleen Shannon: 4:55

We don't need to recap for them. What is going on with podcasting, Emily?

Emily Thompson: 5:01

It's falling apart everybody it is falling apart in some really interesting ways. And I'm really excited to dive into it because this needs to be share from a couple of standpoints. So one I feel like advertising always is a little bit of like a sort of behind the scenes like you don't really know what's happening, but it's obviously always in your face and podcasting we've seen. We've watched literally every step of like podcast advertising along the way from when we got our first sponsor over eight years ago when no one was really sponsoring podcasts yet to now what the advertising industry has become and how that has affected and otherwise plays hand in hand with how audiences have changed and how that's affecting how people are creating content. And where in business models podcasts exist now, and what that all means for indie shows, because spoiler, I think we're about to start seeing the end of indie podcasting in a very real way, which I think everyone can kind of smell in the context of literally, this conversation of this business, the backbone of which has been a podcast for so long, cannot sustain as it is because you cannot have a podcasting business in this way anymore.

Kathleen Shannon: 6:30

Say more about that. Well, first, say more about what an indie podcast is like, what how do you and what's not an indie podcast? How do you differentiate?

Emily Thompson: 6:40

Oh, there's a couple it's a it's a, it's a malleable definition. It's more of like a Venn diagram, if you will, where think of a large brand, or a large network or production company is producing a non indie podcast, right? They're putting a whole lot of money into a show a lot of money and resources to create a show, whatever, whatever that is. Big production. Indie shows our shows that are not big productions. It's like it's a person or two people or a very small team, who are just producing one, two, maybe a handful of shows, but they're not huge productions. Or what you're seeing more and more of now is how podcasting has become an advertising arm of other smaller companies. Those are kind of indie as well, though, I don't think really, that's sort of the middle of that Venn diagram, right. Where it's not podcasting for podcasting sake, as much as it is podcasting for a brand, which is how it is that Being Boss started. Being Boss started as a show that you and I were creating as a marketing arm sort of between our two companies. But we were also doing it for the content, as equally, if not maybe more so than as a marketing arm of our two individual companies.

Kathleen Shannon: 8:00

Well, for sure, anytime you're doing anything, and we've talked about this many times on Being Boss, you have to understand how you're being compensated, whether it's creatively, financially, whatever that looks like, we both had a ton of experience in creating content. We'd been blogging for years, I think that you all if you're still here, you know the story. And then we happen to start podcasting as a way to establish our personal brands and to market our businesses. That was how we plan on being compensated for creating the kind of valuable content that we were creating, in accidentally turned into an advertising platform whenever other brands wanted to buy space on our podcast to share their brand. And that's the difference between marketing and advertising. So marketing is whenever you are sharing what it is that you have to sell out in the world, advertising can be part of marketing, but advertising is specifically buying space on other people's shows or platforms, or whatever. And as you kind of really dive into the advertising world, which I can speak to because my company is primarily branding and marketing. But we do have a big advertising. You know, part of what we do where we are buying media, on shows on Google on digital advertising in all traditional media to like billboards, and bus benches and all of that stuff. We are buying space for our clients to then advertise in those places. So the thing is, is like television shows, award shows, podcasts now. They're almost being created for advertising versus for the content, like yeah, we're really lucky whenever we get a really good show to watch. And it happens to have commercials. But guess what, the way that the industry has changed in media is that you can buy streaming services with no advertising, and then you truly are paying for the content itself. You can pay more to take out advertising out of YouTube, for example. And that is what I do. I pay for everything so that I am never advertised to. Because I don't want to hear it. I'm here for the content and I'm willing to pay for it. So if you're not paying for it, you are the product you are what people are selling to advertisers. So that's just a little like tangent on what advertising is and I can really see that. You know, it used to be like ABC, NBC, CBS and we were all watching the same things like in the 80s Right? We were all watching Alf we were all watching Golden Girls, we were all watching the soap operas, and then as soon as cable came along, it kind of turned that industry on its head because people were able to pay for cable. And they're now we're just paying for the content versus the advertising. And so I think that something like that could be happening in podcasting. I want to hear more of your thoughts on it, Emily, for sure. So yeah, let's go back to you. I'm stepping off my soapbox there.

Emily Thompson: 11:14

No, that's great. It's great to differentiate the two and understand how they work because that's what has happened in the podcasting industry. And I remember a couple of years ago, and you'll remember this, too. We talked about it a couple of years later here on the show, but I realized that something bad was happening in the podcast industry, when Spotify paid way too fucking much money to Joe Rogan for his show. I was like, okay, okay, okay, like this is, this is going in a direction that is not going to be great for indie podcasters. And, you know, I had my rantings. I've shared my feelings here on the show somewhere before, it will not go back into it. But I realized that things were going in a really weird direction when big players started getting into it. And on one hand, that's great. We're making podcasting sort of more mainstream, which is only going to be quote unquote, better for everyone who's doing it and all of these things. So there were definitely some pros to it. But the cons were, that advertising was coming into this space in a way that was not going to be for the creators. And really even for the audiences, it was going to be for the people who brought the money in to do the thing. And it was going to, I knew that it was going to snowball really quickly. Because podcasting is expensive to do. It is an incredibly process rich process, right? There's a whole lot of that goes into producing a show, especially these days, as the Disability Act has gotten into how podcasting can be presented to the world. And all of these things like and the expectations of advertisers as well, the production, or the cost of production of shows has only gone up, while the willingness of advertisers to pay for it has gone down in a really interesting way. Like, I don't think you know this, I don't think we've talked about it. But I'm still using the same rate sheets that we used in 2018. And I'm getting more pushback on them now than I did in 2018. Like I have not been able to raise our rates in five years, and still, in some cases, get a whole lot of pushback on it, even as the cost of production of the show has gone way up.

Kathleen Shannon: 13:31

Right. Because whenever we started in 2018, we were constantly in the top charts, because guess what, we were in the right place at the right time. We dand don't let anyone sell you.

Emily Thompson: 13:44

Doing good shit.

Kathleen Shannon: 13:45

Doing good stuff, right? Don't let anyone sell you on here's how to have a top podcasting. It's just like anything else, where you just have to show up and do the thing and constantly do it. And that's what we were doing. And also, it was like kind of the Wild Wild West, like advertisers didn't know really what it was worth. So we were charging what we were worth at the time.

Emily Thompson: 14:10

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 14:11

But maybe it's just not worth as much. Now do you know what I mean? Like even though the cost of production?

Emily Thompson: 14:16

Absolutely, it's not. And that's that's something that I've struggled with a whole lot. But also, I want to go back to this thing of like, right time, right place, good content, top charts, because now you can buy your way onto the top charts. Most of the shows that you see in top charts have bought their way there 100%. Like I know, the people who've built the tech who have made that happen, you paid some monies. And you get all the stats that Apple wants to put you in those top charts. So every almost every one of the top charts these days have paid to get there. It is not right place. It is not right time. It is not good content. It's money. Period.

Kathleen Shannon: 14:53

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 14:53

How's that make you feel?

Kathleen Shannon: 14:55

Same is true for a lot of Google searches, and New York Times bestsellers, lists and basically, you know, being shown on social media, everything is kind of pay to play at this point. Capitalism is a roaring out there. And it really is hard for those of us who just want to create good content and be really creative. It is hard. So I hate to be discouraging, but I can't help it because this is a podcast about Being Boss changing. This is a podcast about how you bought me out three years ago because I was feeling the change then you're feeling the change now. So you've just got to figure out a way to make it work for you and what that means. I guess what I really want to say is that there is no easy way there is no magic bullet, there is nothing like I hear a lot of people say, I think I want to start a podcast because it seems easier than blogging. And I think that what those people need to say is talking is easier than writing. But yeah, podcasting is not easy.

Emily Thompson: 16:02

No.

Kathleen Shannon: 16:03

blogging is not easy. Nothing is easy. So you need to pick the thing that is hard that you are willing to do and really stand behind, even whenever it's really hard, because that's where you're going to find success, you're not going to find success in just trying to take the easy route, or seeing what has brought other people's success, or what someone's trying to sell you as what will be successful. I digress.

Emily Thompson: 16:34

We're gonna get really heated throughout this whole one. Yes. And I will say that there are places for you to create content that are a little more in your favor. And what I've just found over the years is that podcasting has become less and less in the creator's favor, over and over again. And I I'm definitely I'll call it jaded by the fact that I was able to enjoy so much of it when it was new. And when it like the golden age of podcasting, or whatever, like I remember what that was like, and how beautiful it was, how easy it was to find your people and, and build an audience and build relationships with those audiences and those sorts of things. And really be able to focus on creating the content. Whereas it or I'm jaded by that experience, being in it now knowing that that is no longer accessible. And like I said, Well, yesterday slash last week is like, this is not a sandbox that I want to play in anymore. Of like, this is not fun for me to be in a space where I know what we're doing. And I know what we can help. But knowing that I have to put in 1000s, literally 1000s and 1000s of dollars every single month to be in the top charts, just to like have discoverability for new audiences, because that's how much it costs. And I have seen shows that are literally putting out six plus figures, like multiple six figures, every six to 12 months to stay in the top charts like there is that kind of money in this industry now to keep nd podcasting sort of at the bottom of the barrel.

Kathleen Shannon: 18:15

Name names, who's paying?

Emily Thompson: 18:17

Go look at the top charts and 75% of them are.

Kathleen Shannon: 18:22

What does it rhyme with?

Emily Thompson: 18:24

I'm not giving names. What dp they rhyme with? I'm not going to be shady. Anybody want to come buy me a cocktail? I will absolutely tell you in private. How about that. I will absolutely tell you in private. Mostly, I'm not going to say anything super publicly. But like 75% of them are absolutely paying their way there. And this is a product of a lot of things like this is sort of where things are. But I want to talk a little bit about how they got here. Because what has happened over the years and something that I felt, and I'm talking obviously very much so advertiser side of things, which I could talk about all day, because it is the number one thing that is shaping this industry now is where the money is coming from because it's not coming from audiences anymore. And this is sort of where this began is, as people started creating more and more shows and 2020 was, I think, a really big part of that, like everyone started a podcast, you know, either you were baking bread, or podcasting. I was doing neither other than the normal podcasting. But a lot of podcast started, everything got super saturated, so many shows. And if you look at any of the stats, now, there's proof that there's more advertising money in podcasting now than ever before, which if you look at it like that, you're like, Oh, that's great. Podcasting is really growing. What do you think about that advertising money being spread over multiple times more shows than there were a couple of years ago, you realize that it's more resources, but they're more stretch than they ever have been? And there's a sort of war between sort of engagement and, and sort of visibility and it all stems from audiences becoming more and more stretched as well. People are listening to more shows, not fewer shows, used to everyone was listening, like the stat was like, you know, everyone is listening to 4 podcasts, right? Like how do you, you know, get garnish the attention, you know, from that, being that 25% that they're listening to. Now I think the status up to like, nine shows or something and so, divided attention, less engagement and I can think of this very sort of real world very small scale from our experience. Is we used to get so much fan mail, fan mail and like physical things in the mail from people who were wanting to send us their book or you know, something that they had made, or they had done some artwork for us and all of these things. And not to say that I'm here for the gifts, but it is like, it is a illustration of something where we don't get that anymore at all, like our audience is not engaged with us on that level. And I'll say this to Being Boss the podcast is bigger than it has ever been. Like, by far in a lot of ways, like we are getting more downloads than we have ever gotten before. And the engagement is far less than it has ever been, we were getting more engagement when we were 20% of the size that we are now than we do multiple times bigger than we were several years ago, because audiences are engaging with shows differently, which says a lot for indie shows. So those of us who do have a show who are trying to sell digital products or experiences or whatever, we're having a harder time selling those things. But advertisers are also having a harder time selling their things, which is making them want to pay even less for it. And it just is this sort of trickle down effect that has pretty much screwed over everybody. It screws over the audience and that you have to listen to more advertising than ever before. It screws over the creator in that no one's paying them to produce a show not the audiences or the advertisers and it screws, it's screwing over the advertisers too, because they are putting a bunch of money into podcasting, and have no proof of concept, which is something that I see over and over again, we'll have advertisers very excited about coming in and sponsoring the show. But they want metrics. They want to know how many people are converting. You literally cannot have that data and not you can't have it like it is inaccessible. There is no way to tell who listened to a show. And then what they ended up going and doing. And there's some tracking that's happening. Absolutely. If you don't think you're getting tracked on podcasts, you are silly. You are 100% getting tracked. But there are holes in the data that disconnects, being able to really watch and see what conversion rates are on shows. So it's this environment where really everything is disconnected. 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Kathleen Shannon: 24:15

So I'm reading a stat right now. And you know, it's just like on explodingtopics.com. I don't know if this is verified, but I just Googled how many podcasts are there. There are around 150 million podcast episodes averaging 50 episodes per podcast. Half of all podcast episodes are downloaded less than 29 times in the first week after publishing. So that's not great, because how many episodes is Being Boss downloaded within the first week after publishing? I mean, in the 1000s, right? I mean

Emily Thompson: 24:49

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like 10. 10,000, right, which like so. And there's, we're one of the top point 1% top point 1% of all shows, and then like, we're not as that's, that's like, our blogs used to get more visits than that in a week, right? Like that is not a huge amount of downloads. But in the grand scheme of things, that's huge.

Kathleen Shannon: 25:16

Right? So I'm still okay, here's the deal. I know that we just talked a lot of shit on podcasting. I am still a proponent of being a creative, whatever that looks like for you. If that does look like podcasting. By all means do it. I used to say things like just plug in a pair of Apple headphones and you can podcast. Nope, that's no longer you have to have really top notch sound and production and a concept and you've got to put your all into it right. So, after I left Being Boss, I did end up creating a podcast for Braid Creative, specifically for credit union marketers. So I got incredibly niched, I knew I only wanted it to be six episodes. And it really was more of like a, I think of it almost more as a digital product that I can point people toward for free in the podcasting format. And really, the podcast is just what made it searchable, for instance. But really something I could send to credit union marketers and say, hey, look, I made this thing for you. My goal with that was to get one or two, six figure clients more than an advertiser could ever pay me for that podcast. And guess what I did it, I got it, I got paid for that podcast, and then some and that podcast probably cost me. I don't know, around $5,000, we rented an actual podcast studio, we had a sound engineer editing everything, putting it all to music, we spent a lot of time in pre production, six months in pre production for six podcast episodes. So you've got to put your all into it, if you're going to do it. Um, and you know, or maybe it's just a creative outlet, like, try it and see what happens. I've talked before about how I started a YouTube and I was just gonna try it and see what happens. And I've fallen off the YouTube wagon, because it is a shit ton of work, you know, as much if not more than podcasting, because it's not just audio. Now It's visual and all of the editing. I loved it, I loved editing, I did it for myself. And guess what now I'm able to bring those skills to things that I'm creating for my clients that are actually paying me to do that sort of thing. But I love doing it because I loved telling the stories and kind of creating content and just doing something creative. So all of that to say, feel free to do a podcast, if it's your creative outlet, if you're wanting to get paid well, I don't know, maybe start listening to another show. Because, or like all the other things that we've said, are like buy our book, you know, buy our book, that's like the timeless kind of advice that we put in the Being Boss book that I think will work no matter where you are, or when you are in your entrepreneurial journey because it's basically like, have boundaries, do good work, be a good person. Don't get in debt. Like you know, it's the basics.

Emily Thompson: 28:15

Yeah. Right. And, and that's sort of where I am. So what I've mentioned, what I mentioned in the last episode is like I'm done with the podcasting industry, like I'm done playing this game, I'm done like being in here. And not I'm not done working with advertisers that it makes sense to work with, I've ran the gamut of advertisers, there are people that I have worked with that I would never speak to again, and there are people and even future opportunities that I will not turn away, there is a time and a place for everything. But the difference is for the past several years, I have worked for advertisers, I've had some big contracts and some things that I have had to work for and achieve. And unfortunately, when you're working in that way, it overshadows literally everything else that you're doing. And even as you know it even I think you know, there is a advertiser that was with us for years and years and years and years. And if you've been here, you know who it is that we're talking about here, who was always really great to work with until they weren't anymore. And that was more of like a team member turnover.

Kathleen Shannon: 29:23

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 29:24

Over and over and over again.

Kathleen Shannon: 29:26

That was a relationship thing. Because I have to say that advertiser, I loved them. I loved them, the people that we were working with and like our.

Emily Thompson: 29:34

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 29:35

Whenever it was collaborative, and really good, it was really good. I don't even know the people that you've worked with after they left that position.

Emily Thompson: 29:44

It was many people who did not even know what the relationship with Being Boss even was after doing it for years. And like it was very badly managed. And some really off in some really unfortunate ways. And that sort of thing, too is like you know, when you're basing your business on a couple of big contracts, and then team turnover or something happens and you have your leg cut off at the knee or whatever it may be over things that you have zero control over. And here's sort of something that I've gotten to I think a lot of creatives are like Type A entrepreneurs you're going to get this is I definitely felt like my fate was a little too tied to corporate America, right to the whims of sort of that larger scale economy in some cases, stock portfolios, and just things that like, this is the reason why I'm not in that world. And yet over the years, this business model got more and more tied to that world. In a way that I was absolutely at the whim of corporate America in a way that I hated, and especially once things started shaking out. And, and I will say we've, this is unprecedented times, right, like pandemics, recession, crazy shit in politics, like it is not been the easiest time in our lives to be really navigating anything. But just so I'm not blaming any one person, it's definitely been a product of the overall environment. But it's been relentlessly difficult in a lot of ways and to the detriment of a creative project that we started to have fun.

Kathleen Shannon: 31:31

Right.

Emily Thompson: 31:31

Right. And so I've definitely gotten to a place or we got to a place and I say we in terms of my team, going through all of these things and having this fall through and that not hit the way we want. And that proposal being jokingly small, or whatever it may be and getting to a place of like, but what would it be like to sponsor ourselves? What would it be like to change the way we think about the show in a way that allows us to be the people back in the driving seat of not only the creativity of it, but also the funding of it? What would that look like? And how would that sort of tip the scales and make this more interesting to all of us working on this project, because if Being Boss, if this show or whatever the show ends up shaping up to be like, if it is going to continue, it cannot be in the throes of the podcasting industry, we have to take it out of that environment and put it in a place where we can foster it in the ways that we most want to. Because there are lots of weird little things that are happening to around podcast tech, like this is a very tech heavy industry in a way that it wasn't whenever you and I got started, ad insertions and all of those things are just getting worse, the relationships between you and sponsors are just getting more and more displaced. You can even get tech now to dynamically skip dynamically inserted ads, which is like that's like really diving into that cannibalizing piece of like, if you can just automatically skip those ads. And I know a lot of people skip our ads which are not dynamically inserted. There's an app somewhere if everyone wants to I don't I don't remember what it's called, but definitely came across my digital desk relatively recently. There are apps that allow you to do that because everything is so digital that you can do things like that. And so that doesn't do the advertisers any justice. It doesn't do the creators any justice, like it's fucks everybody over in the process. But it's just it's a thing, and I think it's just going to keep getting worse. So the idea here is to pull Being Boss out of the podcasting industry. So that is just a content platform. So going back to what you were saying of like how are you going to be compensated. Sponsors have stopped compensating us in the way they used to we still work with their sponsors for this episode, I very much so appreciate them we will have some in the future we work with people on in the community but when it comes to depending on sponsors for the production of this show, I'm not going to be doing that in that way anymore. Nor do I want it to shape how it is that we do content because one of the sort of another dark side of sponsors becoming such an integral part of the podcasting industry these days is they've brought in so many sort of old school ways of managing advertising and and what their expectations are. And also there's like a lot of audience things in that too. You know, I think the the coaching that goes into starting a podcast is your audience is going to want to know what to expect and when you create contracts with you know sponsors, they're going to want to know your air dates, you're gonna have to make sure your podcasts are a certain length to make sure that your advertising fits in the nicely like I am boxed the fuck in when it comes to what it is that I'm creating and when it is that it goes out into the world. And so part of this transition too is busting free of that box and really reimagining what it is that we can do in terms of show length and show content and show publication schedules and all of these things because the podcasting industry has us in a very small, very confined and very particular box as to what it is that I can say how it is that I can say it when it is that it is said and I am too rebellious for that shit.

Kathleen Shannon: 35:50

Yes, you are. I'm like corporate America, give me all your money. I will podcast all you want if you give me some money, but the thing is, is that just like I have we have a lot of people coming to us wanting to write books, and they're asking about how to get agents and these sort of things. And I tell them well, first you have to become internet famous, like you have to be internet famous to get a book deal. And now the same is true for podcasting. Have you noticed how many celebrities now have a podcast, basically all of them, podcasting has become the new book deal.

Emily Thompson: 36:21

Yeah, and that's actually I have notes on that that's actually a very big player into the death of the indie podcast as well, is now all the people with money producing podcasts has realized that one of the best ways for them to make back that money is if is if a big name is the host of that podcast. And there's a lot of chatter happening in the podcasting community about how this is Death to the indie podcaster. Because if podcasting becomes another celebrity platform, then no one's gonna care to hear from Emily Thompson from Being Boss, they're gonna want to go hear it from Sophia Amoruso. A, you know, doing whatever it is that she's doing out there, her next gig, or whatever it may be, or it's, you know, someone from Shark Tank, or whatever it may be in a way that like I get, I love those Shark Tank folks, some of them at least. But it is not good for indie, podcasting, and business. I mean, the business set of podcasts is a whole different beast on its own. For better or worse. It is not I told was talking in the last episode of this industry is not my favorite for a couple of reasons. One, the peers are, in a lot of cases appalling. And two, the competition is vast in this space. So like the celebrity thing in this space is real, but it's I think even more detrimental. In a lot of the other categories of podcast where you have people who have been in here doing some great storytelling, or whatever it may be, but whenever you bring in a big name celebrity into those spaces, everyone else falls away in a really unfortunate way. So yes, I've definitely seen that it is a very big conversation happening in the indie podcasting scene, and is just another sort of nail in the coffin. I think of what podcasting has been for the past decade.

Kathleen Shannon: 38:09

Do you listen to any podcasts?

Emily Thompson: 38:11

Absolutely not.

Kathleen Shannon: 38:12

Okay, so we started this podcast with me being a big podcast fan, and I was listening to things like Serial and S Town and some of the big hitters at the very beginning. And you never listen to podcasts, maybe every once in a whle, you would listen to an episode of something I would send you away.

Emily Thompson: 38:32

I, occasionally, it's rarely an episode. Occasionally, I will listen to a whole mini series. I love a mini series. And there has been a couple of them. But like but otherwise no.

Kathleen Shannon: 38:44

I'm still an avid podcast listener earlier, whenever you said people used to listen to four podcasts. And now it's nine, I probably have 30 to 40 shows that I subscribed to. Am I listening to all of them every week? Absolutely not. Are there maybe a handful that I'm listening to every week? Absolutely. Yes, there's probably four or five, honestly, that I'm listening to every week. And I have found there are a few that I listened to. And what I've noticed is that I listen to one huge big hitter podcast, which is Armchair Expert, also bought by Spotify still has advertising. And also the thing that confused me about all these Spotify deals is I figured that if I'm a Spotify customer paying for Spotify, and these podcasts are Spotify exclusives, I wouldn't have to listen to ads anymore, and I was all about it. That is not the case. Even if you pay for Spotify and you're listening through Spotify, you're still hearing advertising. Okay, so that's one thing. The second thing is I've noticed that some of the podcasts I'm listening to do not have advertisers. And they are successful. And they're done really well. And they're kind of old school, like just a couple talking. And they have a Patreon. And they weren't even pushing it that hard to begin with. And now they're pushing it a little bit more. So I love that. I love that. They're making their living doing something else. And they're truly creating something for the creativity of it. And that's what keeps me coming back is because they're not thirsty for it. They're not thirsty for sponsors or for you to go buy their products, or any of it. They're just chatting and having a good time and you could just get a little eavesdrop on their conversation. There is another business and.

Emily Thompson: 40:28

But I wonder like how well they're actually doing. Like I kind of want to, but like show like so you have money in your? Like are you making money off of this?

Kathleen Shannon: 40:35

Here's the deal. So they have been personally recommended by the huge podcast. I listened to Armchair Expert.

Emily Thompson: 40:44

Oh, okay. Yeah. My existential crisis these days.

Kathleen Shannon: 40:45

One of the co-hosts is constantly mentioning them. And that's how I got on them. So, you know, they're getting a lot of recommendations. But they've said stuff like the first 1000 Patreon subscribers get blank. And so you know that they're not even at 1000 Patreon subscribers yet. So who knows, you know? So yeah, they might not be doing that well on Patreon, but they both have full time jobs as creatives. And this is a project for them Well, girl, get on some Zoloft, 150 milligrams, and you will start feeling a little more optimistic. I know, I've really really to just get together and chat. And if that's what podcasting is like, yeah, you may get opportunities out of that. Here's the thing. If you're creating something that you love, it is going to open some sort of door. I don't know what door that is. So I don't want this to fully deter you from creating a podcast, it's really hard. But if you want to lean into that hard, and it's worth it for you, it will open doors for you. It will create some sort of opportunity, I have to believe that about everything otherwise, what's the point? Like what is the point of doing anything? If nothing matters, everything matters, everything that you do. been pushing the anti anxiety medicine but truly you all it has changed my life.

Emily Thompson: 42:03

They have changed you for the better.

Kathleen Shannon: 42:05

100%

Emily Thompson: 42:06

Yes.

Kathleen Shannon: 42:07

100%.

Emily Thompson: 42:07

Yeah, I know, I see it.

Kathleen Shannon: 42:09

So anyway, I just want to say as a listener, I'm there's one other podcasts that I listen to quite a bit, and it's a business podcast, and she's only selling her own stuff, you know, and it's not, sometimes it's a little heavy handed. Like, I don't need the whole 15 minutes of a sales pitch at the beginning of an episode. And sometimes I'll skip past that a little bit. But it's kind of like in the more spiritual space, which also like, I'm just Actually go live your life. Go live your life. so listen, if you end up listener, breaking up with like, business podcasts after this, because maybe this was the only business podcast you were listening to. I also recommend just quitting self help in general, like, go read a novel, you know, like, stop buying courses, and I say this as a course creator. And just watch a show. For fun. Go watch some Ted Lasso. Go listen to That's real judgy, Emily. Because guess what living my life is watching a really good show. Like, I feel like I'm alivea and well whenever I have a good show to watch.

Emily Thompson: 43:18

Yeah, okay.

Kathleen Shannon: 43:19

But yeah, go live your life.

Emily Thompson: 43:21

I wasn't judging, but whatever it was, go live your life. Gather experiences that will be as good as any self help, but you could ever read.

Kathleen Shannon: 43:31

100%

Emily Thompson: 43:32

I do. I agree with all of that. All of those things. And and that really like it really all feeds into this decision, right of like, of why it is that I'm at this place. Because along the way, I've tried all of the things, right, we've been, we've been supported by sponsors all along the way. Over the past year, I've done a whole lot of polling because we thought, you know, maybe we make the community tier paid again. Maybe we change our Brewed email to like a sub stack or like charge for that one portion of what we do, maybe we make this show a paid show.

Kathleen Shannon: 44:08

People are people are overwhelmed by paying for substacks anymore. Like.

Emily Thompson: 44:13

Indeed.

Kathleen Shannon: 44:14

That has already. What's What's it called jump the shark? Gone over the hill? Like I'm getting asked to pay for every email that comes to my inbox right now. And I'm like, Y'all, like I paid for a few of them. But

Emily Thompson: 44:25

I don't want to.

Kathleen Shannon: 44:25

I don't want to.

Emily Thompson: 44:27

No, I unsubscribe from everything, literally everything. Which really goes into it as well as I am not like I'm not the key customer of my own. Like, I'm not paying for any content. And in all of our polling and conversations, no one wants to pay for this shit. Which like, I get, I don't want to pay for it. I'm not paying for it. But we have to be compensated in some way if you're not going to pay for the show. If you're not going to pay for the things that we're creating, if you're not going to pay to be a part of the community all of those things and the clubhouse tier is still there it is still paid people do pay for that and they love it. But the bulk of our audience and community and listeners and all of these things, you don't want to pay for it and I get it I totally get it the world is filled with so much free shit. A monster we created with this like give it all away for free 100%. I've definitely felt that come back to bite us in the ass as we've gone along. But the world is so inundated with stuff and this is actually a conversation I'm going to be bringing up in the next couple of episodes because I do think that this is part of a larger shift that online business in general is seeing which is going to be the next sort of juicy Emily spill the tea episode as to what it is that I'm seeing on the large scale in the online business industries. But this is part of a larger problem of there's too many people on the internet doing too much stuff, giving too much stuff away for free, and also asking you to pay for way too much stuff. In that I don't want to play that game anymore is really where I am. Because it is it is, like I said the last episode, like pulling teeth, like pulling teeth. And so the team and I have gone back many times into then what does it look like? Then how do we create this content, show up all these things in a way that feeds something? Right? It's either feeding our creative spirits, which this hasn't in a while for that because of that box that I was just mentioning. Or it feeds our bank accounts, which at Being Boss, it has not in the same way in probably the last year plus.

Kathleen Shannon: 46:45

Since I left?

Emily Thompson: 46:47

No.

Kathleen Shannon: 46:48

Just kidding.

Emily Thompson: 46:49

Unfortunately no Kathleen. Being Boss has gone on to make some really great money.

Kathleen Shannon: 46:55

I know. And you know what I was gonna say that in our last episode is you got a really big contract right after I left. And it's easy to be like, Oh, but that's whenever you know, that you are out. Is whenever in the good times and the bad times your decision is the same. So if you're having a hard time making a decision, think about if you got paid a million dollars to do that thing, would you still be out? And if the answer is yes, then you're out.

Emily Thompson: 47:23

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 47:23

So anyway, all that to say, I know, I know, it wasn't me. But I do really quickly also want to say about the giving it all away for free hasn't worked for you. It has worked for me. And the back catalogue of Being Boss continues to work for me because I've been able to position myself as an expert in the service that I provide, which is branding and graphic design. And it's still like a tangible thing. I think it just depends on what your business model is on the giving it all away for free part of it. And I have to say Emily, I don't know that with you really focusing on Almanac now that that was still a bad decision. It just seems like a really big pivot. Like you know, giving it all away for free. You can't give crystals away for free but there's still something that you can give that is probably going to support Almanac in a way that might be generous might have something to do with where the podcast is going. You know.

Emily Thompson: 48:21

Settling yourself into the flow of your business from navigating a whole year of ebbs and flows to embracing the energy of each and every day, you're bound to have some ups and downs along the way. For me, this journey of entrepreneurship is made better when my space keeps me focused and inspired. As an example, my favorite way to mark the beginning and ending of the workday is to light a candle when I sit down at my desk and then blow it out when I'm done for the day. It's a little ritual that creates boundaries and a vibe but that keeps me focused and feeling cozy, and the ritual candle that we make it Almanac Supply Co is my favorite for this. In fact, my whole shop is filled with items that I've curated to create the vibe for feeling connected in flow and inspired with candles, crystals and other goodies to help them create a dreamy workspace bedside table or bookshelf. Come gather inspiration and check out my favorite in stock items at almanacsupplyco.com/beingboss and get 15% Off with code beingboss at checkout. That's almanacsupply co.com/beinboss It definitely does but also in the store people come in and they're like ooh, this is great. I'm like yeah, vibes are free.

Kathleen Shannon: 49:37

Right.

Emily Thompson: 49:40

So like there is an essence of give like that is marketing right? To some extent. Marketing is giving something away for free. But it's not so much like a one on one person giving things away like no one or I think very few of us are actually giving everything away for free. The problem is the entirety of the internet is filled with free shit.

Kathleen Shannon: 50:01

Right, yes.

Emily Thompson: 50:02

Or like multiple times more now than it was eight nine years ago when we got started.

Kathleen Shannon: 50:09

Even four years ago.

Emily Thompson: 50:09

Right like it is just a come. Yeah. Yeah, it is a completely different environment. And I think I keep coming back to that because that really is what this decision is around the environment is so different that this model is not working in the same way that it was then nor in enough of a way that I care, that or like it even a no I do care or even in enough of a way that it makes sense to continue it in this way. This is like a smart business decision to do the pivot that we're doing and, and the pivot that we're doing, if we do it in the way that, you know, we have it sort of half baked in our head at the moment, it will be about giving it away for free in support of something incredibly tangible, that makes conversions and therefore it filling some cup way easier than come by my other course, or join another online community. Sorry, that is a garbage truck driving by, or whatever. The other sort of intangible thing is that people who are engaging in online content is just sick and tired of in a very real way that has sort of created this negative feedback loop of what creating content in this way has sort of shaken out to be.

Kathleen Shannon: 51:30

Alright, so what's it going to be? What are you doing?

Emily Thompson: 51:35

Well, I don't know yet. Well, I do know, I do know, I, again, half baked ideas. I don't want to share too much terribly yet. Because the team and I have decided we've tried to like sit down, we've had some early conversations, obviously over the course of the past six to nine months in particular, as to what is the future of Being Boss, like if what we're doing in this space is not working, and not even not working? In terms of we do SEO work and nothing happens? We have this big guest and nothing is happening. We're like doing the things that we're supposed to do. And it's not doing what we need it to do, then how do we change it? What does it look like and we so we know what the shift is generally going to be. But we've also made a very conscious decision that we will not sit down and figure it out to like really put it on paper, know exactly what's going to happen next, until this phase is done. So I'm doing these two episodes with you. I'm doing two episodes with Tasha and Erica very soon. And then I'm doing one sort of solo episode to finish this out. And then the team and I have a number of consecutive meetings, on the books immediately after that, to finally flesh everything out and understand what's happening. And the types of content that we're dreaming up are unlike anything you've ever seen here. The publishing schedules for them are going to be unlike anything you've ever seen in a podcast. And we're breaking the mold and really just sitting down and thinking, what kind of content do we want to make? Forget it if half of our audience are just pissed off at us about it, like don't care. No offense to you all, but don't care, we're going to create this content for us. And for the brand that we all love working on. And two how can we like what sort of schedule will keep me in particular from feeling bogged down by constantly showing up with or in the same way that I have constantly showing up for this show over the past couple of like, really 12 to 18 months, this has become really difficult to me. And really, really, how do we actually get truer to the Being Boss values. Because as we've put ourselves in this box of keeping our audience happy, so that our numbers stay up so that our sponsors are happy, we have inadvertently sort of separated ourselves a bit from our values. And then one of the biggest ones is creativity, when for real is the last time anything creative was done on the show. And you could argue all of them are. But it's also all the same, more or less, because you don't want to piss off your audience because they need to know what to expect. And you have to have the big names you have to like, make your sponsors happy, you have to post regularly, you have to have these specific links, like the heart of creativity has been gone in a way that I didn't really think about until we started thinking about how to be creative with the show. And creativity is one of those core tenants that we have sort of lost along the way in order to like stay safe in this online content creation world. And if I don't have to worry about anyone else giving me money, or giving me money to create this content, and I can you know quote unquote, sponsor it myself, then I can do whatever I want. And that's what I really want people to sort of settle on. I don't know how we were gonna go. I don't know really exactly what that looks like. There's a couple of like hardcore ideas floating around. Don't like get stuck on that yet because we have not shaken it out just yet. What I do want you didn't know is we are going to be like letting our creative souls shine when it comes to creating what's next. breaking the mold, All right, well, I guess this is goodbye. forgetting the formulas, and really just doing something different. Oh my god. so okay, I'm gonna pitch this to you right now though.

Kathleen Shannon: 55:56

Okay.

Emily Thompson: 55:57

Can I pitch this to you right now? It's just my feed and I can do whatever the fuck I want

Kathleen Shannon: 56:01

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 56:02

Right I say we do occasional bouts of the Emily and Kathleen show.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:09

Yes. 100% Yes, I do. I do.

Emily Thompson: 56:16

Right let's talk about fashion and lip balm.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:21

Okay the Kathleen and Emily show like people are really gonna see it like like the real

Emily Thompson: 56:28

Can, yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:29

Okay.

Emily Thompson: 56:30

Yeah, why not? Why? Like if if it really isn't about making anybody happy except ourselves right?

Kathleen Shannon: 56:37

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 56:37

At all.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:38

Yeah.

Emily Thompson: 56:39

What like what would it be and how much fun would that be?

Kathleen Shannon: 56:44

So much fun. I'm in it. I will sit here on a microphone and talk to you anytime.

Emily Thompson: 56:52

I know. I know and we can take all the pressure off of it.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:55

As long as Corey still editing and I can say cut this out though because this is just us.

Emily Thompson: 57:04

Right no one needs to know this shit but Emily here's the tea. No, I'm absolutely I think I'm so excited about what's happening next and though as we were getting on and I was like are you ready for the last one I don't want this to be the last one because in the future of what this feed is I want to go back in some instances like little the little mini series right little mini series of what you and I most wanted to do. Right which is Emily and Kathleen show.

Kathleen Shannon: 57:36

I love you Emily Thompson.

Emily Thompson: 57:39

Ditto Kathleen. So this is not the last it's not the last for you and I and for everyone who is listening to this there are a couple more episodes coming because I'm not quite done really giving you what I need to give you before I move on.

Kathleen Shannon: 57:55

You've got a few more of those sponsor dollars to to cash in on.

Emily Thompson: 57:59

A couple more contracts to finish out.

Kathleen Shannon: 58:04

If you haven't just burned down that bridge all the way in this episode.

Emily Thompson: 58:10

Right I mean, I hope not. It's Shopify y'all I use them at Almanac it is the most in line business sponsor crossover I could ever accept dollar bills for especially but no I will be back for a couple more really juicy episodes to talk a bit more about this process and really what's next. And I think the real meat of what is coming is basically what we've done today with this like podcasting conversation of like what is happening in the industry and how things have changed and how that has played into this decision. I have just as juicy if not more so bit about online business and where it is that I have seen things shifting and changing especially as I straddle the fence between online and offline and have otherwise been in this space for over 15 years where I've been having some conversations with my friends and we're going to be sharing it here in those coming episodes so don't unsubscribe yet don't ever unsubscribe but at least wait till the next couple of episodes before you do that. And then that is it for Emily and Kathleen on the regular Being Boss show. Thanks honey.

Kathleen Shannon: 59:22

I've loved it it's been a good time.

Emily Thompson: 59:25

It has.

Kathleen Shannon: 59:26

Until it wasn't.

Emily Thompson: 59:28

Until it wasn't and then it will be again.

Kathleen Shannon: 59:29

Until it was a really bad time, yes.

Emily Thompson: 59:33

All right Kathleen one last time we're gonna do this again but for the sake of this one last time what's making you feel most boss?

Kathleen Shannon: 59:42

Well what's making me feel most boss? Okay, this one's really personal and I almost am uncomfortable I'm not going to share it that's what's making me feel boss there's something that happened recently and if I share it, it defeats the whole purpose of having done it but I did something recently that makes me feel really boss.

Emily Thompson: 1:00:14

And what is so magical about this is Kathleen you've always been so transparent that it feels like a very boss evolution for you to be like and I'm going to keep it to my fucking self.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:00:26

I appreciate you saying that I thought you're about to say like no this does not count as an answer come up with something else that's making you feel boss you can't talk about then you need to say something else but what how fitting for the last episode of Being Boss to say that the thing that's making me feel most boss I've chosen not to talk about.

Emily Thompson: 1:00:44

I mean, that is like monumental. It is not lost on me at all. I love this for you. Good job Kathleen. Zoloft for everyone. Absolutely everyone. No. I think it's a perfect answer. Thank you.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:01:04

How about you, Emily, what's making you feel most boss right now?

Emily Thompson: 1:01:08

what's making me feel most boss is definitely how I piece I feel with this decision to make this pivot to take a break of because that's the thing I haven't where there will be a break in recording for a while we're gonna, for the first time, in eight and a half years, there will not be a new episode of Being Boss for a couple of weeks while we figure out everything we're doing and get sort of things lined up and feel.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:01:34

I like how do you say a couple of weeks? Like, a couple of weeks is a break? Try two months, three

Emily Thompson: 1:01:40

Um, it'll be like? No, no, actually, it will be it'll be like two and a half months, if I'm not mistaken. months. Oh my gosh, is it going to be like, Wait, how does that we'll have to talk about it later. I want to sit in on these It's a good break. It's a good break, because girls, I need it. I absolutely need it. Um, so it will be like a two and a half, maybe even three month break, depending on how everything shakes out. So, for me, it's definitely how at peace with this, I feel this has been a long time coming. I mentioned previously that I knew that something was happening a whole year ago, I was like, this is a decision I'm making. This was not something I made rationally. I did not sort of shut everything down immediately. As soon as I felt it. I knew this was something that I wanted to keep and do when I talk to the team. And I've talked to my friends and I've like really sort of gotten to this place. And I feel like I'm doing it so responsibly, as as responsibly as I care to do it. How about that for both the sake of our audience and our community, but also me and the team and you know all the things in a way that I'm making this really big conversations of what this thing is going to be I just want to be a fly on the wall. decision. And I feel fine with it, like whatever I mean, not like whatever and like I don't care. But I have so processed all of this stuff in such a way that it feels incredibly boss to be at this place where I'm sharing with you all all these big crazy things, and you're all like shocked and appalled. And I'm just like, yeah, it'll be fine, y'all. Let's just move on. This is I do not feel emotional around something that I think a lot of people would feel incredibly emotional. I have worked through it all and I'm ready to just take the steps. That feels boss. How about that, Kathleen? You were you say last goodbyes. Obviously, next time, it'll be the Emily and Kathleen show. But Never been a fly ever. But if you want to I love that.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:32

I mean with this newfound mysteriousness that I've got.

Emily Thompson: 1:03:36

I know you could.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:38

Wait what was the question?

Emily Thompson: 1:03:40

I don't know, see you later.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:46

This is where it's really hard to say goodbye.

Emily Thompson: 1:03:48

Are we on the phone not to try not to say goodbye to each other.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:52

Yeah, that's what we're doing. This is the longest goodbye we've ever had. Like okay,

Emily Thompson: 1:03:59

Okay, you ready?

Kathleen Shannon: 1:04:03

I guess this is it.

Emily Thompson: 1:04:05

I guess I need to go now.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:04:06

On the count of three. Okay. 123. Bye

Emily Thompson: 1:04:08

Bye Decor for your office, gifts for your clients, celebrations for your own job well done. Find it all and more in our handmade candles and carefully curated collection of crystals and gifts at almanacsupplyco.com/beingboss and get 15% Off with code beingboss at checkout. That's almanacsupplyco.com/beingboss now. Until next time, do the work. Be boss