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Make The Logo Bigger
Episode 7: SEO tactics that always work
March 21, 2018 Kaleidico
Make The Logo Bigger

Episode 7: SEO tactics that always work

March 21, 2018


This week we go back to the basics and talk about Search Engine Optimization (SEO). Regardless of your online marketing strategy, learning about SEO will improve your performance. This week Bill and Mike talk about how paying attention to SEO can improve your overall marketing campaign.
This week we go back to the basics and talk about Search Engine Optimization (SEO). Regardless of your online marketing strategy, learning about SEO will improve your performance. This week Bill and Mike talk about how paying attention to SEO can improve your overall marketing campaign.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1:0:00Welcome to make the logo bigger. We're a strategy for his company, right? So as everyone should be, I mean you gotta start with your objective and then kind of work your way backwards from there. The podcast that takes you behind the scenes of a marketing agency, conscience getting so much more expensive. We just got to figure out more economical ways to provide that service to clients from two guys that get paid to do this stuff on a daily basis. People love behind the scenes type stuff. They want to see how you work. You know, they want to know more about your process, so be open and honest. Here's your host, no rice. Usually the best ideas don't actually sit within where you are. They're usually come from somewhere else, and Mike, Carol, you need to design first and then create content to the design, and now the obligatory legal disclosure. Bill Rice and Mike Carol worked for Kalydeco, a marketing design agency. All opinions expressed by bill and Mike are definitely the opinions of Kalydeco opinions expressed by guests of this podcast. Well, they could be right or wrong. Who knows? This podcast is for informational purposes and has a reasonable probability of making your marketing better. And now this week's episode, welcome

Speaker 2:1:08to make the logo bigger. Hey, it's good to have you guys all back here. We're in episode seven and I'm excited because this is one of my favorite topics we're going to talk about today. It's a search engine optimization or seo and everybody probably thinks it's an old science, but it's fun and I'm going to tell you why it's fun and we're going to talk about that a little bit. Hey Mike. How's it going? Good bar. How are you? I'm super excited. I love this. I love this. Love this. Love this topic, and as one ever talks about it as a writer, it's my least favorite topic guide. We're going to make you love it. I wrote a whole book on Seo for content creators. You should read it. You're a liar. You proof read it. You didn't read it. That's fair. That's fair. All right, so before we leap into that, um, I want to talk a little bit about my most recent mantra. Maybe that's why I decided to talk about seo today and that is when you're talking or thinking about marketing, I think everybody needs to go back to the basics for a little bit and just kind of get back to the core little individual aspects of marketing and do some of the simple things better.

Speaker 3:2:22Couldn't agree more with that. Bill. Every everyone is so enamored. I was reading articles this week kind of in preparation for our podcast about marketing trends. You know what I mean? So you know, you're reading about chatbots and ai and all this crap by the way, that doesn't make any sense for like 99 percent of the marketers out there. And so everyone has gadget itis I guess.

Speaker 2:2:45Totally chatbots for roofers.

Speaker 3:2:48Exactly. Like that guy can't check his facebook page often enough to like get the hot leads that come through it, let alone like setting up an, you know, an automated chat bot to walk through scheduling an appointment. It's just silly.

Speaker 2:3:01So we had this, I got to tell this story. You'll remember this finally. So we had a landscaper come to us and they said, hey, you know, I've been doing these mail drops and everything and I'm thinking about switching it up and actually it was, it was kind of his partner or somebody that worked with him. I can't remember whether they like, Hey, you got to get on facebook. So we said, okay, yeah, we can do some facebook and we definitely think it's, it's a should be a part. I mean obviously your mail drops work but um, but uh, we think you should think about facebook. So we lit up facebook and it's actually landscaping in particular is just um, and, and the fertilizer and the stuff he did like fertilizing and all that kind of stuff. And it's, it's one of those situations where you get them in the spring.

Speaker 2:3:43Actually, I didn't realize this but it actually starts on Valentine's Day and gets all of those bookings for the whole year and then he just goes out there and spray stuff on a, on a regular basis. And He's already booked in his fees for the whole, you know, they usually pay for the year anyway. Super like business model to have that reoccurring revenue and so we lift this thing up and we lit it up in the wintertime and we went with a. facebook was perfect for. We were like, Hey, don't you wish your, your lawn would look like this in the spring. We just got some beautiful pictures, beautiful pictures of lawns. People went nuts and he got tons of leads and so we were following up with him and we still host his website, but we don't really do any marketing because you're not willing to invest in it. But his number one complaint was when I called him and was like, could you shut that off? Because by secretary can't take all the calls. And I'm like, well, then hire a second secretary. Anyway, small businesses are tough, uh, unless they really get to eat those. So. But anyway, it works. The basics work. That's all we did. We just took facebook targeted ads and blue this little small business up. And so

Speaker 3:4:53the takeaway for any marketer, right, to like to want to look fancy in a meeting, there's nothing more frustrating to me than sitting in a meeting full of people and you know, you've got the Delta monkey dance brs name for them or play babies, right? So like play babies, uh, and you'll hear us reference them often are people that read an article online and then a spouse that is their own thought or opinion in a meeting, having never executed it, done it, like investigated it. Really, it just sounds cool and don't let your marketing get caught up or by the way your marketing dollars and conduct by an agency that just running around telling you that you need to do all these new fancy programmatic things or whatever else. If you are just entering into the digital space or like you don't have an active seo program, for example, we're going to talk about then like you don't need to think about anything else until the basics are taken care of. And you'll know when the basics are taken care of because if they are, your company will be growing.

Speaker 2:5:51Totally. Totally. Yeah, wasting time and money is something that I hate, especially when we're competing with them, but, so let's talk about Seo a little bit. Seo Tactics that always work. And so this is kind of the critical distinction that I want to make a so searching and optimization and Seo, uh, as it's often called is really kind of the art and science of, of getting search engines and, and really there's only one to talk about Google, although beings kind of make it a little bit of a run at it and you see some yahoo stuff and there's actually some opportunities because those are kind of small and nobody ever pays attention to them, but we won't go into that. But, but Google is just the art and science of getting Google to take in and put you in a position to be found when people are, are looking, uh, to answer questions, to do product comparisons, to just find stuff.

Speaker 2:6:44Um, and um, and, and so that's, that's kind of the basics of what it is. But it's so powerful because that's, that's the yellow pages. Like there's a little bit of stuff going on with facebook as far as recommendations and stuff like that. It's kind of interesting, but we won't talk about it here, but for the most part, the lion share of any websites, traffic is going to come out of Google. So you got to figure this piece out. And, and throughout kind of time, Google is always trying to outsmart the people that are looking to game the system. So what we're going to talk about today are just kind of the fundamental things that Google will always appreciate and will, will work regardless of what tweaks they do to their algorithms. Because again, talking about getting back to basics, no matter how many times google tweaks, it's algorithms. If you just do some basic value add to their search platform, um, then you're, you're always going to be in good stead with them and you're not going to have to worry about that. When you start getting these seo firms that like, hey, this algorithm and that algorithm and we tweak this and tweak that and, or whatever. You can almost detect that. You're kind of getting yourself in a place where they're going to offer you something that's probably only going to work for four seasons, so to speak, uh, with Google.

Speaker 3:8:05That's absolutely right. I mean, if you're an seo company is talking to you about panda or like, you know, I don't even know what philosophy. I'm a digital marketing expert. I don't pay attention to the algorithm changes anymore. And the reason for that is exactly what you just stated, which is if you focus on Google's underlying goal and the experts will, you'll hear them say it all the time, satisfying searcher intent. Then you're going to get good gains from an Seo perspective, from an organic traffic perspective, no matter what they're doing to the algorithm, because they're always tweaking the algorithm to serve that purpose. If you remember people out there need to remember that Google's product is answering a question with value value, what's the word I'm looking for? A with value essentially. Like if they don't, if they can't answer your question, the Google's failing you as a, as a company. And so the only reason why

Speaker 2:8:5690 or 85 percent of people use Google's because they're the best at answering your question. Well, I think that's where a lot of people kinda Kinda miss the understanding of what they're trying to do with Seo. So at the end of the day, uh, and I think this is a really important distinction when you're trying to think about your tactics and your strategies with searching and optimization. If you were to ask Google what they're trying to do with your content is it's really to serve their customer, their user, right and their customer, their user is the searcher. Um, and so when you're trying to figure out like, okay, what do I do with my content? If you put it in that frame of mind and reference, then you'll get it right. If you say, okay, how do I create some content that Google will think is, is a good valuable piece of content to put in front of my user?

Speaker 2:9:46And so that users going in there with a question and they're asking a very specific question. This is getting more and more popular where they're actually typing out a full sentence or full of very detailed what we call long tail question. And what Google wants to do is they want to provide at least 10 high quality specific answers to that question. Um, and so if you write a piece of content that specifically answers that question, uh, and they're doing all kinds of cool things with this to add value to that and to give the user a good context. But if you do that, they're going to put you in the listing, right? And then they're never going to take you out. But so many times people are like, oh, how do I, a game it up here. How do I put enough stuff, enough things in here to get it up there.

Speaker 2:10:31The last thing Google wants is a article with that key word in there 400 times because it doesn't answer the question or do you get a lot of, do? And like the, uh, you know, I hear a lot from a handful of our clients speaking of marketing trends, right? As like backlinking is now making a comeback by the way, that's the oldest seo tactic and history of time, like one of the smaller ones is backlinking and people have forgotten about it and now seo firms are starting to grab out of the fact that like it's still valuable by the way, to get other websites to link to your website, but it's not the end all be all. So if you go out there and you get a thousand crappy backlinks from non-relevant websites, it's not going to move the needle for you. And I think that's. I think that's what you're kinda talking about the art which is right and it and it goes to the same thing, right?

Speaker 2:11:11People are going to backlink to you again, you right, are you creative a piece of content that answers a specific question and so them writing it or instead of them creating a video for her in particular video I think is a really nice way to see this. Instead of them paying the money or taking the time to create the video. If they can just grab yours and embedded, then boom, you've got a back link, right? Because you've created some valuable to them. Yeah. That's one of the smartest tactics out there which a lot of people forget about, which is youtube is the second largest search engine. It's larger than being, it's larger than Yahoo. It's its own search platform. So um, and then it's tied into google the largest search platform as well. So the video comment is a really kind of poignant one. Vr, I think, which makes a lot of sense because people don't, like you said, aren't taking the time to that kind of content.

Speaker 3:11:54You take a little extra time, make some really good solid two minute videos that answer these questions. People will love you for Google, will love you for it. Um, because nobody wants to read anything anyway. They just want to watch it on.

Speaker 2:12:05Totally. So let's go through. So it kind of answered the question of like why would you do this and what's Google looking for and what those people that would potentially backlink to what are they looking for, but what's the framework like? How do you go about kind of building this, this plan and doing these tactics? So the first and foremost you need to start with your, your website, like what are you trying to achieve, right? And what's on your website that can actually add value to google. So, so obviously you want Google's traffic, you want, you want people to come to your website to answer the questions that they're looking for, but how can you create a piece of content in such a way that it will actually serve Google's user? So first and foremost, you're trying to, you're trying to answer that question, like how can I create a piece of content that's going to look, look great.

Speaker 2:12:51I'm on those first 10 results and it's going to get an answer as many of the possible questions around that article as possible. Um, and then, um, so after you figure that out, like the next step, and this is the one that people often miss is like, okay, I'm going to create an article about, um, you know, flat roofs. Okay, let's assume I'm a commercial roofer, right? I want to write something about flat roofs are men to write something about pvc roofs or something like that. Um, and so I was like, Hey, I'm going to write something about that because I think people are going to search for that to try to figure out that particular type of flat roof, um, and what they should be looking for, you know, what it should cost and that kind of stuff. The very next step is then to take what you think is important to your customer and what you think is important to Google and then figure out how people actually look for that because probably nobody knows what a pvc roof is that they definitely probably know what a flat roof is, what a, what a rubber roof is.

Speaker 2:13:52Um, and so you got to get in and do some of that key word research which is find out from Google what do people actually type in. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:14:01I added an example. I'll give you an example from a client we have actually currently she operates, you know, a doggy daycare and I use the word dog needs specifically by the way, doggy daycare boarding and training facility here in the Metro Detroit area. She hates the word doggy and when we did our research and we're redesigning our website, um, you know, we gave back her recommended sto architecture and doggy daycare is all over the place and she's like, well, I want to take out all the doggy daycare. And I was like, that's how people talk about it. That's how people search it. It's, it's as a witness, as Kleenex, right? Like no one searches for tissue paper. They searched for Kleenex. So understanding the language that your audience leverages to search for things on Google is not exactly how you talk about your product or service. And so that research component is fundamentally critical. You may be surprised more often than not like the words and keywords essentially that people are using to find what you do or what you sell on the web. And so do not ignore it because you do so at your peril.

Speaker 2:15:04Totally, and, and, and once you've got that, I always talk about like keyword clusters, the next step and that is to take some of those, those words that you found, especially those where you, I think it's always gold when you find something that is a little bit disconnected right from the business owner. So this is a perfect example of that, right? Business owner and probably every business owner like her, all of our competitors probably have the same frame of mind that she does and so they're all throwing away their customers essentially who are searching for doggy daycare. I mean she's, she's literally, and hopefully she isn't, but, but her competitors, because they're same frame of mind have literally thrown away all the customers that now could be hers as long as she's willing to embrace the way that customers actually think about her business and the words that they use.

Speaker 2:15:51And then that creates a cluster. Right? So there's a cluster around that. There's obviously doggies involve daycares involved and there's probably, if you were to iterate that, there's probably a whole bunch of other things. Doggy daycares near me, doggy daycares with some sort of geographic modifier. And so there's a whole sort of clustering around that. Um, and so you want to grab as many of those as you can and permutations of that and things around that because there's probably some natural, uh, concepts that stem from that, um, as to like what does that mean? What's provided? Is there a run? Are they in cages? Are they out running with other dogs? And playing with it, I don't know all the nuances, but really brainstorming and figuring out like for customers that are looking for your business, what is that? That whole, uh, inventory a whole vocabulary that they're using around your business to solve all the questions they have about actually, you know, buying that service from you or getting that product from you.

Speaker 2:16:51And then the other one that's kind of related to this that I think I know I even forget about a lot of times is then to take some of those key words and throw it into a Google's keyword tool. And this is really cool because you'll find that a lot of key words have some cyclicality to them, right? They're either seasonal or there's something happened in the news, um, and you can play on some of those cycles as well. So the landscaping is a perfect example. I would guess if I had actually thrown his terms in there, I would find out that wow, people started looking for that in February. So I need to start marketing in February to lock in my customer base before spring breaks. Right? Because if I wait until spring breaks, everybody's already signed up with their favorite lawn care service and I got nobody left that cares about listening to my marketing pitch. So that trend into touro tool is super cool. The other thing, I mean, I'm sure some, you know, some of you obviously probably depending on your level of expertise, are already leveraging tools out there to do that.

Speaker 3:17:50I'll take just a moment to let you know because I'm sure somebody out there is like, well, how do I need to keyword research or whatever. There's lots of different tools that you can leverage. Seo, Moz is a great tool, uh, technically it's not my favorite, by the way. I just don't like the interface, but it's information is as accurate as any other, uh, also, uh, we use sem rush here at kaleidoscope. That's sem We find it very valuable. It allows you to search for keywords. It gives you related key words, you know, to the, to the ones that you searched for, gives you search volumes and the trends that, that bill is talking about which are super important. And then you can export those in spreadsheets by the way, and, and kind of keep track, uh, in married up with an editorial calendar. And so you're always having your writers go back to this Bank of keywords so that they're at least leveraging something that people are actually looking for when they write an article.

Speaker 2:18:38Yeah. That, that key word bank is super important to do. And then of course google has its own tool. So as we're talking about tools, don't neglect, those are free. Some of these others are a little more expensive. But um,

Speaker 3:18:49and also important to remember that like any sem rush or seo Moz or whatever, Google's a locked box folks, so, so, so nobody can get in there. The only thing that knows what's going on in Google is google. So basically what these tools are doing is, and this sounds crazy when you think about it by the way, like from a programmatic perspective are recreating Google and then, and then giving you the results. So they're taking, they're downloading everything that they possibly can and then they are recreating the behavior or the search trends or whatever else. And so the numbers are not always exactly accurate, but if you, but you'll be able to tell the difference. I mean

Speaker 2:19:25definitely proxies. That's also why you want to use some of these bigger tools, uh, and that they are more expensive, but if you get some of these finite tools, they just don't have the ability to, to kind of recreate those large data sets that you need. So that's why there's only like a couple that are really worthwhile in this space. Um, so let's talk about, you talked a little bit about links. Um, I, I don't want to dive too much into this because there's all kinds of, other than to say that there's a lot of kind of bad ways to do this and a lot of good ways. The first and foremost is just to go back to the content and the keywords and creating something of value and therefore people will actually use that content in their own content creation and that naturally gives you some, some back links.

Speaker 2:20:08The other thing that's important, and I just ran across an article that was kind of really highlighting this. There are a lot of uh, and again you have to think about doing this in a good way, but there are a lot of kind of leftover with the Seo Industry calls web two point, oh, I'm a websites and stuff. Um, and so web two point, oh, is really all about like kind of creating communities and forums and comments. And so as a result of sort of the way these, these platforms were built, a, there was a lot of self linking and a lot of people got away from that, but some of them still have some viability to them and have some, some high credibility within google. And so there's some opportunities, again, if you do it in a good way, uh, you can actually go into some of these platforms and give yourself links, um, and so, and they still kind of work really well even though that's obviously not the highest quality, but there's something to be done there.

Speaker 2:21:04And if you get into some of those places, um, you can get kind of clever. I mean, I'm in, some of these are actually newer places, but wikipedia, cora a myspace is still around, which is kinda interesting, but there's. But there's, there's a whole list of them and I can link to those in the show notes. But, uh, but it's interesting, there's a lot of those still. And it's actually amazing whenever I've gone into some of these things and played around with them, they're still active communities sitting in these places. And that's where you want to be is where there's kind of an active, vibrant community. So Google actually rewards the platform as being something useful.

Speaker 3:21:39Well, and you'll notice when you're out on the web by the way, and again, I'm always coming back to the, so this is kind of a, it's a deeper concept so I don't want to spend too much time on it. Right. But you also have your website has to reflect or, or play like synonymously with the other websites in your space. So let me tell you what I mean by that. So if you go to personal finance, I've used that as an example of the time. It's one of the most competitive content market places on the web because there's just so much of the content around it. Everyone is doing something reasonably sophisticated, whether you're, it's your nerdwallet's or you know your zillow's or whatever else. So there's lots of different, you know, so you have to be on the cutting edge of Seo to compete in a marketplace like that.

Speaker 3:22:20However, if you were to go and try to rank for something like horse tack, and the only reason why I know that is because I own a horse farm and I'm constantly looking for stuff for my wife. I'm the marketplace. The digital marketplace there is so unsophisticated that the only thing that ranks there bar, I've noticed a lot are those old forums, all the website, so when you search for anything in there, it's always coming up with like horse chronicle forum and it's like the most useless information ever because it's just a bunch of people's opinions. So while I don't think there's a lot of money and the horse tack business, which is why I'm not spending my time doing some like giant affiliate marketing thing around it, there are lots of communities are like, I call them digital marketplaces that are sort of ripe for disruption where you could kind of leap frog all the competition you want it to. However, if you get too sophisticated, you'll almost priced yourself out of the marketplace so you can't. You got to understand who your competition is and, and, and mirror them a little bit. You don't copy what they do, but mirror it and do it just a little bit better and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2:23:21It's another tactic if you're finding too, like, I mean in that particular case, if that's where all the results are taking you to that if you did want to create something that was valuable in that space, that that was kind of a little higher quality. You can actually link from those places, right? Because obviously they've got credibility with Google. That's the only place to find that and this is a perfect example of the kind of kind of little pockets you're looking for. Google's just given up and they said, hey, I got to get at least 10 reasonable results. This is the best quality in that space is all crappy forums and so, but by you actually go into those forums and those same spots and saying, hey, here's a better place to get an answer to this question. Let me give you a little bit of it here.

Speaker 2:24:02Tease it out, and here's a link to my site. All of a sudden google within find your site, if it's a higher quality, boom, all of a sudden you start moving up through the results and that's how google wants it to work. And that's a great way for you to find these little niches. So when you run into that kind of stuff, again, Seo cold, uh, there. So let's talk about the page itself. So, um, and this is where I see probably the most mistakes whenever we tackle a client for the first time, whether they've had seo help before or not, uh, this just consistently is wrong, uh, and it goes to the onpage seo or what the actual content itself looks like. Um, and also how that content is arranged on the site in both of them kind of have the same way that you should be thinking about it.

Speaker 2:24:52So at the end of the day, I always talk about Google bots as being just idiots, right? They're dumb bots. The fact of the matter is that they're pretty intelligent ai stuff through their super clever actually, but you still got to treat him like, yeah, it's a computer that's a, that's a much better way to talk about it is they are a computer and so they have to go through logic, logical structures to understand things. So you need to give it that logical structure. So when you're building a page, I always talk about pages because they're easy to envision, right? You want to start as if you know, just like they taught you in your, you're a high school English class, make an outline first. Um, and those should be your titles. That should be your age ones and your [inaudible] and they should have this hierarchical structure to your content, to your layout.

Speaker 2:25:43And when you look at it, you should be able to Kinda like squint and identify that outline, right? It also helps your reader, by the way, because everybody's scanning. So create, create an outline. That's what your page should be structured like that outline should make sense. Right? So the thing, the title there should be, you know, let's just for argument's sake, let's just say you've got three topics that you're going to talk about are three bullet points in there, right? Those three bullet points, those three sub headings should have some relationship to the actual title of the article, right? Or they shouldn't be bullet points, right? And then inside of each of those bullet points, any sub bullets, any, uh, uh, unordered list or even ordered list, again, should reflect that to the next thing. So I can't tell you the number of times where I'll actually see somebody, you know, they'll have a title a, then they'll have a bunch of words and then they'll put an h one tag and the middle and the h one tags like a wholly different topic or whatever. They put an h one tag in there because they wanted it to reflect the key word. Um, but anyway, it just becomes a mess. And so it's not linear.

Speaker 3:26:46Yeah. We wander into the website design development component to this, right? So, so often what we see as well as website design and development shops will use the h one tag, which is really critical from an Seo perspective as a design element. It's not what it's for. And what I mean by that is that an h one, what most people think of as just like a really big headline, right? I was like the biggest texts you can possibly have on your webpage. And while that happens to be true, it really is important from Google's perspective because that's what it is telling google the page is about, that's the question that you're answering. So you know, so when you're thinking about your website design and development, makes sure that you're not using [inaudible] for typographical design, uh, but you're actually using them for Seo. If you need something for typographical design than what you want to do is have your web design designer or developer put together what we call a custom heading class.

Speaker 3:27:37Which again, I don't wanna get too deep in the weeds on that. We can talk about it later, but it should allow you to design on the page without ruining your h, one m, which is super important. The other thing I think br, which you mentioned earlier, which is really important here, is when you're making that outline, that's where your keyword cluster comes into effect, right? So you've got your main keyword is it's the, your main keyword is the, and this is a really easy way to organize it. Your main keyword if you're using these tools is the keyword with the highest monthly search volume. So we'll take doggy daycare for example, that is definitely the highest, you know, 20,000 people search for it a month or whatever. So that's your h one tag, you know how to find a doggy daycare. It's, it's in the age one and then in that key word cluster is doggy daycare plus boarding doggy daycare plus your city and those become your sub pedaling. So if you know what your key word cluster is, that keyword clusters should guide the way you develop that outline.

Speaker 2:28:27Yup, totally. And, and we can carry this one step further and I think this is, so if you get the onpage part right, then you're probably also a mess and you know, or, or you know, once you've got that, the next thing you want to think about and you don't want to get messed up again, I see it messed up all the time, is really the, the hierarchy of the actual site. So the link structure within your site, same thing. It should go from like your whole website should be about a big main thing. And then from there those key word clusters start to break apart into some level of top level navigation. And then under there there's a second level of navigation. And then of course there's some cross links. I'm in there, again, very specific to those, those key words. And so if you do that good keyword research, you're going to see this natural hierarchy of information there.

Speaker 2:29:15And then you should start to build and lay your pages out in the same sort of hierarchical piece and, and internal linking. So like, if you're going to talk about, um, you know, let's do personal finance or whatever, you're going to talk about credit cards, like, you know, credit card that, that term or that word or I'm probably took a bad one. But, uh, let's say prepaid credit cards, right? Anytime you take about prepaid credit cards, that should always go back to a prepaid credit card page, right? That defines, it, helps them understand it. The best example of that is just to go into Wikipedia, right? You go into a wikipedia for one, one concept, everything that needs further explanation is linked to another page and, and everything on all of wikipedia about that one page is cross linked over there. So if that word ever comes up again, right? It always gets automatically linked to that core source document and definition. Right? And you should build your site the same way. In fact, there's some cool tools that'll help you do that as well.

Speaker 3:30:19I couldn't agree more. I was actually gonna I, you know, before you said it, I was going to say, well, wikipedia is by far the best example of how to structure like any type of internal linking things, a good rule, a good rule of thumb by the way is like if you're writing a page, a page, let's say about prepaid credit cards and you get down to like best prepaid credit cards for vacation, like as an example, and that section is like longer than 500 words, then you need to tease it and create a page dedicated to the second topic. Totally. Um, and uh, again, what'd you gotta go back to your keyword cluster and make sure that that second topic is actually how people are searching for it and it, it's valuable enough for you to take the time to create an actual article.

Speaker 3:30:55I realized this is like a wormhole of, you know, of trying to figure that out, but, but that's the, you know, that's the rinse and repeat structure is like if you've got a lot to say about something, it's probably needed its own page or at least it's a blog article of some kind. So you know, that's a good rule of thumb, which is like you start running a main topic and you get into a secondary topic which related to that and you start to write a lot about it, tease it, make a new page and link to it, and your internal linking structure is going to start to make sense to google.

Speaker 2:31:22Yeah, totally. And then of course the most important thing about all of this stuff is once you do it, you just need to do it over and over and over again and create a process where you're just kind of rinse and repeating this and always looking for new clusters and new places to stretch out with that content. So we're going to break the SEO segment here and we're gonna

Speaker 1:31:41come back with some challenges in rabbit holes for the week. You're listening to cold [inaudible]. Make the logo bigger podcast. You can find us on the web at [inaudible] dot com. K A L A Now, back to the show. All right Mike, I have been dying to ask this question. I ask everybody that I can get and no one ever answers it actually.

Speaker 2:32:07So, um, but I, I always love to, to know this about folks. Um, what is your morning routine look like? And specifically like what are the first places when you open up the web? We don't have to go into your shower routine. Um, but when, when you open up your computer in the morning, like what's kind of the first couple of things you do or the first couple of places that you look or what are you trying to kind of figure out on the web to Orient Yourself?

Speaker 3:32:34Well, I've got, um, you know, so I get a cup of coffee for one and then I sit down or I'm usually wandering around the house. Sometimes I've got outdoor chores to do in the morning, but for me, my digital routine always starts in my email. Actually, I'm, I, I'm a, I sign up for a lot of different, uh, you know, email newsletters from medium to the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal to brain pickings to, you know, all sorts of stuff. And so I usually call through, you know, my morning, sort of like daily email thing and then I actually build myself as a reading list that I go through kind of throughout the day because I don't have time to read it all right then and there. If something's really interesting I'll read it right away. But, but normally what I end up doing is it's opening browser tabs or saving links are dropping something in my evernote that I want to kind of investigate later. So my morning routine kind of always starts, um, you know, in my email,

Speaker 2:33:25interesting. A lot of productivity, uh, guys and gals would tell you that's the worst place to start. So That's interesting. Most people won't cop to that. I think most everybody starts in their email, but nobody will really copped to it because somehow it's like it's blasphemous to, to, to not start with a clear head in the morning. But a diamond,

Speaker 3:33:43no lie, don't lie to yourself. And to your point, uh, I don't like that routine. I've tried to break myself of it a number of times, but here's the funny thing, to me, I don't know what I'm going to be interested when I wake up in the morning, right? Like, I really don't. So like I know what I have to do for my work day. That's, you know, it's always different because we're an agency and there's and all of a sudden kind of some different problem to tackle. But from a, you know, from like a mind exploration perspective, I couldn't tell you what I'm going to be interested in. Do I know I want to read the news. Like, I want to know what's going on or at least what I missed from yesterday and you know, I want to be inspired every day to kind of either write my own stuff or you know, to go down some paths so, you know, I never know what it's going to be. And so I'd probably information overload myself to give me like this huge smattering of stuff. And then I kind of go down the ramp each day. A new rabbit hole.

Speaker 2:34:29Totally. So mine's kind of similar. Obviously I started with coffee, but I actually jumped into financial news right off the bat. So I usually pop on CNBC. Um, even before I get there, I do actually kind of check my email, make sure there's no fires lit from the night before. But um, but then generally I'll actually kick into. It's kind of interesting because you blasted me for this last week, but um, I'll usually pop onto twitter or stocktwits and um, I've got certain people that I follow there and I kind of just, uh, actually twitter's got better about this, their actual notifications which used to be just people you know, replying to you, which I don't get a ton of interaction on there, but now they've actually entered in here. I think they realized that the vast majority of people don't get a lot of people like engaging with them.

Speaker 2:35:11So what they're telling you is the people that you follow and that you interact with the most, they actually kind of tell you what they're doing. So people that they followed things that they've liked, things that they've retweeted and they kind of queue those up for you. So when you pop in there and the first thing in the morning, you get kind of a real quick recap on everybody that you're interested in the most or you seem to be reacting to the most and what they've been the most interested in. And so I've actually started to find that pretty cool and then after that, or actually use my apple news a lot, um, which is something I'm starting to like. Do you like Apple News? I can't stand it. I, I, you know, I used to pull everything. I've always been in a quest to pull everything in one place so I could scan real quickly and since they torched google reader, it's kind of like the best thing.

Speaker 2:35:56Feedly is just seems like even though I'm the one that's selected everything in there, it seems like kind of a trash pit of just stuff over time and it gets overwhelming and it feels like another email inbox. I think actually apple news is Kinda made, it feels more like a newspaper still kind of long for those days. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I just don't trust the good people at only like filtering my news. But you select you, you actually there actually other public, like I selected like I want to read the Washington Post and I want to do the Wall Street Journal. Which by the way, now a lot of that you have to pay for but, but I actually tell them what I want to show now. Sometimes they throw Weirdo stuff in there, but yeah, there are algorithms and ai. Maybe it's because I do, I follow all the major news networks and put cnn like they just dominate.

Speaker 2:36:44They put out. Let me be perfectly frank and if you're a fan of CNN, I mean no offense whatsoever. CNN puts out so much trash. I got a regular basis like I'm not calling it fake news and that Donald Trump, like it's a news organization. You can go ahead and trust what you, you, you know, take everything you read with a grain of salt, but you know, it's a real news organization. However they are so prolific and like they're breaking news and whatever else. I just feel like man, do they fill up my apple news so quick. Some other stuff in there and that's based on you responding to like I don't have. I mean I got CNN in there but I don't. It is like so and I think it does a good job of this like, so the things that serves up to me first is usually like a Wall Street Journal, Washington Post Barron's.

Speaker 2:37:27So there's something you're doing wrong there if CNN or cut them off when they take them out, I think it would have to take them out because I think what I ended up doing is that I'm clicking on the CNN article. I'm like, oh, what is this bullshit? I'm clicking on it. Like I, I, I got like, there was something, I dunno when people magazine or whatever for like the next two days I got people magazine, like this is not what I wanted. There was like one interesting article. It's not all of a sudden the top of my feet. So you're not interested in unique somehow. Not on a regular basis anyway. All right, let's hop out of that. Let's go to hottest trends. So what's yours? I wanted to pick up on what we talked about last week. I think it was last week and so my trend is actually no trend stick to the fundamentals.

Speaker 2:38:11Um, I know we talked about it a lot last week and I went over all the, you know, I've been paying attention to what the universe has got to telling people what trends are. You don't need it. Ninety percent of the stuff that you don't need, chances are that, you know, you have some work to do before growth hacking becomes your central strategy, right? So if you, if you can't say to yourself that I rank in the top three for every major keyword that I want my, you know, that I'm getting x amount of leads from facebook campaign

Speaker 3:38:36that my ppc Google ad or my paper click is optimized to the point where I'm getting the right leads for the right dollar amount or whatever else. Focus on those fundamentals before you start wandering off into the ether of like marketing trends. So that's my advice for this week. There is no trend. I'm the anteater.

Speaker 2:38:53Cool. I'm with you there. But I love that trend. Simplifying thing. I think that's, we're going to have to get more and more focused on that to get above the noise, so to speak. So a week's top recommendations, I want you to tell me about civil, you told me about a little bit before he jumped on the podcast, but I want to hear more and what's Kinda like grabbed your interest there because it's, there's a cryptocurrency angle which makes me interested.

Speaker 3:39:15Yeah, that's your favorite thing. I can't tell anybody that I understand it fully yet. But um, so civil speaking of things that aren't actually, I suppose one of the things I also do in the morning is, um, is, is check facebook. Uh, so here's a digital marketing example exercise and something kind of neat. So they ran a cool thing on, um, on facebook, like an ad to join civil, uh, civil is a, a blockchain platform that they're building to decentralize like journalism. And so essentially, and I just started learning about today, literally today, the idea is that they take out the publisher from the equation, right? So, or the network and they decentralized the focus that journalists themselves can then focus on serving their audience and their audience only. So what they're doing essentially is removing the ad model from journalism and funding in a different way. I'm not exactly sure how that works. Actually they have their own slack by the way, where you can join the, like a back channel type of thing, which I joined today. So I posed that question. I don't think they have answered me as of yet. Um, they have not answered me. Oh wait, yes. I have A. Well I'm not going to read it out here. Maybe we can talk.

Speaker 2:40:26I think it's cool to, like you mentioned slack, there's a lot of these organizations, the swag is becoming its own loader, sort of back channel like community platform. So that's Kinda cool that they use slack there too.

Speaker 3:40:38Yeah. But the fundamental idea, again behind civil, which I think is really cool, it's just a different model for journalism. I mean, so I've got a master's degree in journalism. I come from a journalism background. So I think, you know, the importance of the fourth estate is critical and, and the model, the ad driven model that we have right now is killing newspapers. It's killing good reporting. It's killing policy reporting, which is kind of really important, and so there was a movement a while back in a. we're way over time, so I'll wrap this. I can talk about this forever, but there is a movement a while back to do nonprofit journalism or in other words to like, there's a couple of newspapers that actually do this where they, it's a not for profit model so that you don't have to turn a profit. You don't have to worry about so much as advertising, which is a clever way to do that. This takes this a total step further and removes advertising entirely. I don't know how they're going to make any money just yet. Uh, I asked that question. He's answered. So maybe we can come back on a different podcast and I can tell you what I found at.

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