Episode 9: Where do I start my online marketing
Speaker 1:0:00Welcome to make the logo bigger. We're a strategy for his company, right? So as everyone should be, I mean, you got to start with your objective and then Kinda work your way backwards from there. The podcast that takes you behind the scenes of a marketing agency, conscience getting so much more expensive. We just got to figure out a more economical ways to provide that service to clients from two guys that get paid to do this stuff on a daily basis. People love behind the scenes type stuff. They want to see how you work. You know, they want to know more about your process, so be open and honest. Here's your host. You know rice. Usually the best ideas don't actually sit within where you are. They're usually come from somewhere else, and Mike, Carol, you need to design first and then create content to the design. And now the obligatory legal disclosure. Bill Rice and Mike Carol worked for Kalydeco, a marketing and design agency. All opinions expressed by bill and Mike are definitely the opinions of Kalydeco opinions expressed by guests of this podcast. Well, they could be right or wrong. Who knows? This podcast is for informational purposes and has a reasonable probability of making your marketing better. And now this week's episode.
Speaker 1:1:07Hey, welcome everybody. It is episode nine and I'm super excited. We're actually recording this on a Friday and I'm getting ready to get out of freezing cold Michigan and head towards Arizona and
Speaker 2:1:23that's awesome. I'm going to go see the Grand Canyon for the first time. I've never been to see the Grand Canyon. Is that true? It's true. I've been all over the world and I have never seen the Grand Canyon though. Oh Man. Well it's uh, it's inspiring. It's going to be kind of cool. All right, so this is a bill rice here and it was mike talking. How's everything else going on this week? It's good. It's Good Friday. Finally Sunny here in Michigan. So while we're talking about the weather, as mundane as that, is that a, it's finally taking a turn for the better. I'm sure once you leave it'll start snowing again. I heard it actually. It's supposed to snow next week, but just tell me things ridiculous spring. Okay. Anyway, so what we're going to talk about today is, um, where do I start my online marketing, which seems like a ridiculous a show topic.
Speaker 2:2:09But, um, well we get this question. I'm more than you might think. So we're going to kind of dig into this. I want to just sort of set it up for people though as we go into this conversation is to really think about it in two different ways. So, uh, probably the most, the thing that Kinda hits you first is you think, oh, well if somebody started an online marketing program, uh, it's probably because they're a startup starting a business and they're just online marketing is going to be their first sort of a way to go about marketing their new product or service or whatever. And, and certainly that's a use case, but probably the more common scenario that we run into as an agency, um, is, is one that you might not think about as much because obviously everybody's on the Internet. Just take a look around.
Speaker 2:2:57Everybody's got their head stuck in their phone and they're connected to the Internet. And so they are consuming online for the most part, a marketing content actually over and over again, but there are these sort of core, um, strong stable businesses. A lot of them here in Michigan in particular are kind of light industrial or manufacturing type businesses or again, sort of longer history, a nice stable small businesses that generate a fair amount of revenue are doing really well or profitable, but they just have never. They probably have a website but they really never focused on the online channel. And so there's a lot of good things about that. They probably have a good sales process. They probably got a lot of brand or name recognition so they get a lot of referral business and that kind of stuff. But, but that's generally the people that, that we're talking to when we're answering this question is again, they've got a great business. Uh, they probably got a pretty good sales process and they're just looking to sort of start adding the digital channel to the mix because obviously they know it's important and they've got some, they've got some budget to get some resources to do that. So just kind of a setup as we start to talk about this. So, so Mike, um, maybe kind of give us a little more background as some of these projects that we're working on and then we'll kind of dig into like where do we start on these kinds of projects?
Speaker 3:4:24Well, when we start, the most important thing for any of these types of projects is, uh, is to understand what they're doing today and at a point you always make Vr, which is always to start thinking about your sales process first. So whether you're a t shirt making company or selling enterprise software, you know, there's always a sales process that you're following. So understanding that first and understanding how it actual like lead or a customer becomes an actual sale I think is a good place to start. A lot of people don't look inward and they don't look at what's working now. They don't look at what they're doing. Uh, they just get the notion that they need to be online and then it's like a shotgun approach. Like, oh, we need to do facebook, linkedin, we need to do seo, we need to do PPC, and like it's not the way to go about it. So the kind of engagements that we run into, I think most often are those companies that, like you said, they have a website, um, but they have no data, no approach, and then usually no understanding of even what marketing tactics that are using today, even if it's just simple referral marketing, like word of mouth that's actually working, they're just not tracking anything. So we start with figuring out how we can track what we're doing today and how we're going to track what we're going to test in the future. That's where we started.
Speaker 2:5:38Right? And that can be overwhelming, right? I mean, you kind of mentioned it before. I mean there are so many different channels. The digital, unlike kind of any other marketing channel, there is so much data available and there are so many different sort of angles and niches and little pockets of the Internet where you can kind of effectively grab or target, um, your, you know, your, your particular audience that you're looking for, your particular type of customer or ideal customer that it can really be overwhelming and probably even more important. You can blow a lot of money trying to figure it out. Right? So how do you, how do you kind of focus, focus in there?
Speaker 3:6:15Okay. So let's assume we'll have to go ahead and assume for a second that, um, you know, that okay, you have some general understanding of digital marketing or online marketing. So we're all going to go and make that assumption if you don't leave your email and the comments and we'll send you some good resources like to start learning about it. But so okay, we're gonna go ahead. And I didn't expect that you have some understanding. So what would I. The approach that I use with our clients most often, and it's a fun approach and there's a great article in the show notes for anybody go and read. It's actually an article on medium by the founder of duck duck go, which is neat. And in the beginning of it he actually quotes Peter Thiel and for those that don't know Peter Thiel is the pay pal founder a and billionaire tech investor, but it's called the, they call it the bullseye framework for getting traction. And so, I mean, are you familiar with this vr? Have you heard of this?
Speaker 2:7:08So actually the link you put in there, so I kind of scan through it, but uh, it makes a lot of sense, but it's a little bit original. So
Speaker 3:7:16yeah. So the idea behind this is if you think about all your, all the potential digital marketing channels and tactics that even exist, you can start breaking it down by what you need to test and how in this particular manner. So steps one would be to simply brainstorm every is they call it. And I agree with this kind of terminology, traction channel ever. And when I say traction channel, that could be like social media, it could be a, you know, organic search or Google, it could be radio, it could be TV. Um, it could be a, it could be conferences, it could be any number of different things. A channel is simply a mechanism by which you can reach an audience that's the best way to describe it. So when I love,
Speaker 2:7:59I love the fact that he really kind of emphasize is starting and I think you should always, when you're trying something new or even getting into a new marketing channel, you should always going start by assessing what's already working, right? You, you've done something right? So like figure out what you've learned from that and bring it into this kinda this new channel in a good way.
Speaker 3:8:19No, I think it's absolutely correct. And if you don't know what's working or you're not doing any marketing and the only thing you're doing is, you know, is word of mouth. Like we get a lot of clients that come in and say that to us, right? Like, well all of our business comes from referrals. Great. How do you scale it right there? There's A. There's a way to do that. When they say it comes from referrals, it doesn't often mean that that's because they're asking for referrals. It's often just because they come organically. We're even guilty of that. And Kalydeco. Well
Speaker 2:8:46this is a really good. This is kind of I guess a little bit of a point where a sore spot for me because I used to sell software and a lot of people would tell tell or even in, you know, on the agency side of things, oh we don't, we don't need that because we get referrals. Right? But, but at the, at the, at the very core of that, that referral was generated by some form of marketing, even if it was word of mouth or something like that, but the chances are they saw it on facebook. Someone told them about it on facebook, they saw, you know, a hand out a card. They saw you speak somewhere, you know, or there were some other conversation with a friend. There's some sort of marketing that brought them there. Right. They didn't, like you said, they didn't just walk up to you randomly in the street and say, Hey, do you want to do business with me? Oh yeah, for sure. You know, so it's, there's something else going on there already. There's some marketing. That's why you got to look and figure out what's working because there is some form of marketing already taking place if you're getting business.
Speaker 3:9:43Well, and here's the other rub to that right now. We'll kind of get back to this, the bullseye approach, but the, the other rub to that is that even if you're getting organic referrals, like if you really think about the behavior of what happens in that scenario, so okay, your customer is person a person a is having a conversation with person B. Person B person a says person B has a problem and says, Hey, do you know anybody that will be able to solve this problem for me? Product, service or otherwise? And person is like, yeah, actually I work with your company, company x, um, and then what happens? They don't just come and become a client to appear on your doorstep. They just, then they go to your website. That's what's happens next, by the way, nine times out of 10, I mean sometimes you might even get connected to a salesperson or somebody inside the company, but then there's still another action that has to be taken.
Speaker 3:10:34So, so even if you think that referral is going to sustain you like that, it, it can, um, but you should. And if it's working today, then it's working with probably little effort on your part. So scaling it is important. So anyway, so, so that's part of the bullseye approach. So take all the channels, all the traction channels you can think of, and that's your outer ring and then he put them there. Then the next step is to, for each of those traction channels you've created is to brainstorm a strategy for each of those channels. Here's an example. Let's say you say social marketing is a channel that would include any social platform or social media channel that you could think of from facebook, linkedin, pinterest, whatever. So then you want to brainstorm the most likely or promising strategy in that. So let's say it's facebook event ads for my next Webinar is a great way to do that.
Speaker 3:11:19Okay, great. So you, you brainstorm a channel strategy for each of those channels and then the next part of that is to look at that list of things and your outer ring and then which channels are strategies are the most promising. And so when I say most promising, you'll know that kind of like intuitively, right? Wizard or intrinsically you'll be like, oh, that's probably gonna work or that should probably work. At least you'll have a gut feeling that becomes your middle ring. We call it the gut feeling ringer I do, where it's like, okay, these things should work. That's when you can start testing things. So once you get your middle ring squared away, it should be a reduced number of channels and strategies from your outer ring. And then what you want to do is then brainstorm or devise a test for each of those channels.
Speaker 3:12:04The good thing about the middle ring, right Vr, is that you can run multiple tests at one time. You can't run multiple tests in a single channel because it's going to muddy your results, but you can run multiple tests across multiple channels. And that's kind of the idea behind the bullseye framework. Um, so once you construct a test for each, what are you trying to find out that's the, that's the real question. And I think, uh, according to the article, what do you think they should be trying to find out vr? I mean, well, I think one thing
Speaker 2:12:28before we kinda jump into that too, but I think it's also important to assess when you're running the, the number of tests or the number of channels you're gonna test is also really be honest about your resources that are available, right? Because you could test and again, blow a lot of money because you're really doing a bunch of tests that you can't focus on them, so only run enough tests that you can really focus on them. And then I think, um, you know, once you're actually running those tests, I think, you know, I always like to look for, um, for, you know, little points of reference where you're getting just a little little motion, right? So I'm looking for things like, are people reacting to my. I'm not looking for a full conversion. Like that's the last thing that I look for when I'm doing these tests.
Speaker 2:13:09I'm looking for am I getting reaction, am I getting somebody actually responding to it? Are they going to the right place? Or if I want them to click a button or they click on the button, if I want them to go to a certain page or they go to the certain page and then, you know, there's all kinds of tools. Of course you can look here, but once they get to the page, are they looking in the right spot so they actually reacting to the right area. So early on when I'm doing this, I'm really actually looking more at the behavior and making sure that the, the, the kind of the fat part of my visitor's behavior is somewhat akin to what I expected or wanted them to do. That's kind of where I'm looking at the beginning.
Speaker 3:13:46Well, I think that's smart enough, but the one thing I would caveat I would say to that, right, which is it depends on, at what point you're analyzing your data and what I mean by that is when you are talking. So for our audience, when we are talking about, you know, looking at these little tiny engagement metrics, we'll call them to see if the actual, you know, the channel, the tactic, the creative, the landing page, whatever is producing some sort of initial result he's talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, analyzing that at a very early stage. So like super early. So I mean down to the point where like only 20 people clicked on a facebook ad and it's like, you know, did they come to the page, you know, so on and so forth. So it would you agree with that? Is that
Speaker 2:14:27I'm looking for those indicators, they spend enough time exactly, very early on because at that small of a sample size, which is pretty typical, a lot of times when you see these case studies are you hear marketers talk, they talk about, you know, thousands of people or hundreds of people and then the average business, especially when they start in the digital channel, they don't have a large enough sample size, they don't have enough traffic, enough visitors or they can't pay for enough visitors. So they have to actually look at sort of suboptimal segment and, and, and sample sizes. And so as a result, you're looking more for behavioral indicators, then you are actually like true results because you just, you just don't have enough people coming through the channel. It's probably to even produce one result and that could just be an accident. Right?
Speaker 3:15:13Right. And so I think your way is a great way to go through this bullseye process to identify. So if you're on a really limited budget, which I think the thing to take away from this, if you're on a limited budget and you're trying to figure out which channel to even test, I mean because you only have a finite amount of dollars, then these initial behavioral triggers are kind of really important. Then you'll have enough money or enough focused to test one channel really well, and then once you start doing that, the three things that you should really be paying attention to are kind of following in my opinion, which would be the cost per lead. So if you've done brs, behavioral trigger testing and you're like, hey, this facebook channel is people are engaged, they're coming to the website, they're staying on site. It's really good.
Speaker 3:15:53We just haven't had enough volume of traffic to get an actual conversion yet, but we're going to go ahead and put some money behind it. Then you want to obviously get the conversion. You want a. So once you do that, you can assess the cost per lead or your cost per conversion, which is going to be critical to figure out. You want to look at that particular channel for lead volume potential for scalability. Now I'm a really good example of something that is not, well I don't, I don't want to be hard to think about. Do you have a good example for something that is not scalable, like a great channel to use but not scalable? I have one, but it's kind of like esoteric and I don't know,
Speaker 2:16:29might not be the best as an online channel that's, that's not particularly scalable.
Speaker 3:16:36Yeah. Um,
Speaker 2:16:39you know, I, I think a lot of times, and they're actually building some software that starts to scale this, but I think, um, channels where you're producing, um, you know, reviews and stuff like that. So channels like Yelp, things where you're kind of reliant on your audience, um, you know, looking at or the review and kind of reacting to that. You don't necessarily control the platform. You can't, obviously you can't manufacture the reviews so you don't have a lot of control over those behaviors but, but they're really effective if you can build a campaign around getting them. So things like Yelp, uh, we're really familiar with things like zillow is hard to scale, but they have a kind of an interesting model too because the amount of leads that they'll flow through to you and the number of zip codes, if you will, that you have access to our counties that you have access to is completely driven by your customers' reaction to your performance so that they review you. The more reviews you get, the better those reviews are, the more traffic, the more leads that you can have access to, the more markets you can have access to, which is kind of an interesting model but really hard to scale
Speaker 3:17:50that up without doing some additional campaigns to kind of, you know, and it's really hard to because customers can't figure out how to, to do those reviews in particular. A really hard thing. That's a great sort of channel if you will, or tactic. But it's really hard to get it going to replicate. I totally agree. And so the example I was even going to give us something like in the same vein, it was like a Cap Taro. And for those that don't know, Capterra is like a lead aggregator site that essentially ranks different types of software and sends traffic, but if you're an advertiser on Capterra, you go ahead and talk to them and each one of their channels, so to speak, or there their software categories have finite, finite numbers of visitors. So at some point you're going to hit a ceiling there. So when you're thinking about lead volume potential and you think about something scalable, the other things that could prevent you from scaling it are like a too tight of a target, a small geographic area, you know, so you really have to kind of dialed in.
Speaker 3:18:46So that's a problem as well. Um, and then the last thing that you want to assess out of these, out of this test is like the quality of the lead or the customer you're getting. Um, so like if you get one or even just one or two, are they right type of people, even if they buy, maybe not what you're looking for. So those are the three things you track. Then the inner ring, the Bullseye. So we've gone from the outer ring, which is, you know, basically all the channels that the attraction channels you could think of to the middle ring, which is the channels and strategies that you think have the most promise or economically viable for you. Now in the inner ring are the ones that you've tested that you actually see our scalable, so, and, and are working. So whatever is working and you should really only do one channel at a time.
Speaker 3:19:25And I'm going to defer to Peter thiel on this because he's a billionaire and I'm not. Um, so we talk about channel mix at Kalydeco a lot, but I'm actually going, uh, you know, I want to read this thing from this article real quick. I was not long, you know, so he says two things, devices, poor distribution, not product is the number one cause of failure, which I find really interesting. And he follows it up. He says, if you can even get a single distribution channel to work, you have a great business. So he's simply saying that you want to find one channel to work on in that Bullseye. And then once you do that, avoid districts can have fascinating, I don't know how much you know about the background of pay pal, but having heard him say that it makes me think back and I was around and a part of like when paypal was originally launching and it originally launched as a way that you could pay your friends with email and that was the only mechanism of distribution so you could send an email, um, and, and your friend could pay you with that email and then it automatically had an invite and you got, you know, there was some incentive there or whatever to forward it to use it and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:20:33But it was kinda like, but all he used or are they used and there were actually several big names that came out of the paypal early days or whatever, but was email that was their only distribution channel and they were disrupting payment systems.
Speaker 2:20:48I mean, nobody to play with an email and not be a bank. And like all kinds of things. Now of course they're, they're kind of main line and. But uh, yeah, it was really everybody's talking about Bitcoin, like there was nothing weirder than paypal at the time. So like bit coins, not even the least bit sort of weird compared to what was going on with paypal at the time.
Speaker 3:21:09No, I mean we're still living in a cash society at that point. I mean that's what I remember. Like when paypal came around. Yeah, it was really strange. So, so Peter Thiel says, and so does the gentleman in his name, by the way, just in case anybody is wondering, uh, is Gabriel Weinberg, who's the CEO and founder of duck duck go say focus on one channel and I'm a digital marketer, thinks it takes multiple channels to create a conversion. But that's a different podcast for a different time. So his point about avoiding distraction though, by the way, which does make sense is that, you know, let's say for example, you tested it three things and you're in your middle ring and one of them was an offline tactic for conferences and you know, and one was seo and seo produced a far greater result, but your conference activity in your public speaking activity was still producing quality leads.
Speaker 3:21:55The article would say forget all the things that are even producing results that are, that are somewhat good or marginal, and focus on the one single channel that is producing the very best results because what you'll find is that there are sort of numerous, are almost infinite numbers of strategies and tactics that you can take inside that single channel to really optimize the crap out of it. Um, so in what she's probably correct, right? So you're talking about Seo then like your first one is your core keyword strategy. And then, you know, then you've got all these long tail keyword strategies and the, maybe there's a youtube video seo strategy, you know, so you start going down the rabbit hole of a single channel, which makes sense to me and there's going to be plenty for you to do an optimized to get the most out of it before you go ahead and decide to move on to another channel. Is that saying don't do multiple channels, it just saying focus on one until you get totally dialed in, then move onto the next. And I think that kind of makes a
Speaker 2:22:48right, that's a ton of discipline to be able to do that. Keep the distractions away and not get a, you know, kind of again, distracted as they would with all those different channels and wasting a lot of resources or allocating a lot of resources when, when you just don't have them. And just super focused on this. So let's, uh, cut the segment right there and we'll be back here in a second with our biggest challenge
Speaker 1:23:13leak. You're listening to cold [inaudible] make the logo bigger podcast. You can find us on the web at [inaudible] Dot Com, k a l c o.com. Now, back to the show.
Speaker 2:23:32All right, so talking about distractions or things that are challenging us or I'm sort of taking us off thinking about things outside of our core business and maybe it's a little bit of our core business, but, uh, this week I actually, um, and we've talked about this over and over again. Our team over time has, um, has moved from an on premise kind of team to an almost exclusively remote team. Um, and then adding into that, we have as we've begun to expand out, um, and, and really kind of try to take the quality of our services to a new level. We've started adding in several layers of freelancers and people that we use a very specialized way. And so, so this week I've been thinking a lot about kind of optimizing those remote teams and in particular, optimizing remote teams when you have, um, an increasingly a time shifting where your teammates are on different time zones, different locations, and particularly working at different times.
Speaker 2:24:41We even have some freelancers that are local, um, but they, they have other clients or maybe they're designing for us as a little bit of a side, you know, maybe they have a main job, but they're also freelancing as a designer. So a lot of their work happens in the evenings and that sort of thing. So, so really not only optimizing a remote team but optimizing a remote team that works in a very asynchronous way and kind of how to do that in a better, better way. So I know you've thought a lot about this.
Speaker 3:25:13I have an answer necessarily. I think the one thing that we've learned slowly listening to, you know, the funny thing about optimizing remote teams, so everyone's read like remote, not everyone but, but like from 37 signals, we're big fans of great book by the way. It's really awesome, but there's no silver bullet for how your team works and how you're going to optimize your remote team. So like everybody works a little differently. Personalities are different. And so. So the one thing I will say though, that is probably more universal than anything else and remote and also rework kind of talks about this documentation is like, yeah, absolutely critical. So if you don't, if your team is not connected and you can't walk over to your, your, you know, your partner or your colleague's office and like have a conversation about something and everybody is working in different time zones and at different whatever.
Speaker 3:26:07Then you have to make sure that each year a remote team members have everything they need to sit down and do their job at their leisure. Like whenever they're about to focus on it. And they, if they've got questions that are gonna hold them up. You've, you know, it's, it's tough. It elongates timelines. Technically. I think the misconception is that remote work or um, or online conferencing and collaboration, you know, titans teams and makes them more connected. Well, I think what we've learned actually is that it not necessarily in a bad way but like it actually a long gates timelines and sort of takes, you know, actually disconnects people a little more than the, than what it advertises a. So that's, those are the, that's the challenge of that I think, but it starts with documentation. If you, everyone documents things properly and well and you know, connects people to the files they need and all that kind of stuff that it can work really well and people feel really free and autonomous, which is a big benefit for remote teams. Okay.
Speaker 2:27:01Right. Yeah. And in particular, and we haven't even really talked, talked about this, but one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is um, and I know this will be blasphemous but um, so, so we, we use slack and we've talked about before we use base camp as well. Um, but, but one thing that I've noticed with slack is because our team has originally been an on premise team and then after that we've been kind of a team that works together, you know, nine to five on our traditional timescale. Slack has actually become, has made us very lazy on the documentation front. So there's an expectation that all of our teammates are available than all of them are available. And probably there's also occasionally in assumption that they're available to work on what we're working on are having challenges with. And so we slam things in there, uh, create a little bit of anxiety probably for sure.
Speaker 2:27:51Um, and create a lot of frustration on the person that's making the request as they put their documentation or their needs and their. Um, and so it, it, I think slack, um, you know, it works great as a, um, as a tool for keeping connectivity, shenanigans, having people available and feeling like they can, you know, kind of horse around or even connect and do like kind of video chat and that kind of stuff. So there's definitely always, I think a reason for, um, what we call the water cooler sort of atmosphere, um, but uh, so much work slips into that channel that, um, it, it feels like, especially as we start to shift a little bit more with some folks that we almost have to kind of outlaw that in some way or make sure we have to figure out how to reduce it so that, so like you said, the good documentation goes into place that people can work on it in a more asynchronous way and really be able to, to work on the project instead of being reliant on, well I can't, can't do this because you know, Bill's not available right now because, you know, he didn't really tell me what he needed.
Speaker 3:29:03stuff falls through the cracks like that. So actually since we've started adding these additional layers of freelancers, I think you're a hundred percent correct. I'm already noticing that people are documenting things in a slightly better way. At least I am. Whether it's a design project or, or, or whatever else it is just, you know, it is creating that need for documentation, which, you know, necessity being the mother of invention. Um, it drives that. The other problem we have by the way with, with slack, so I mean this is kind of also interesting if you're collaborating. So we collaborate with offsite teams like other teams in slack. We create slack channels for our agency partners that we're working with on projects and when it comes time for like QC, other types of things, um, you know, if, you know, it's great to be able to have that connectivity without having to pick up the phone or anything and kind of sit there.
Speaker 3:29:49Questions can sit there for a second. Then they get answered. But it's only valuable when you're in that fire drill or rapid iteration mode. Because I've had to stop our partners by the way. They'll drop things in slack and be like, Hey, we should have a meeting about this next Tuesday or we should do this. I need this documentation or blah blah blah. And I've had to stop them a couple times. Like, hey guys, you gotta put that in an email or you know, or send me a calendar invite or something because you leave it in here. I'm because today if I were to open up my slack, I'm sitting in one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different slack channels. So we're getting a little unwieldy. Yeah. Unwieldy to manage and inside each of those channels, by the way, like ours alone has 40 customer channels.
Speaker 3:30:35Individual chat. Yeah. He gets real unwieldy really fast if you're collaborating across many teams. So be very careful in that documentation for sure. For sure. Okay. So let's, um, let's move into trends. Um, so one thing that's kind of caught my eye and there's a couple of really interesting people on medium, I'm enjoying that channel more and more, but is the whole concept around microcopy. So Ui and Ux is becoming so important in that low that copywriting for very specific functions and even in reduced space is really turning, creating a whole discipline around people who can write what they're calling microcopy or I would call poetry. So I think that's kind of cool really. Makes your word choices. So, so there's a, that's fine. Finally, there's a use for my undergraduate education and all I did was write poetry as an Undergrad and then into Grad school a little bit.
Speaker 3:31:31Uh, and I was convinced I'd never make any money with it. Are you telling me there's a future in poetry? For sure. Actually, there's some fun stuff. I won't, I won't talk about it till we get to recommendations, but I've been kinda watching this, this one company in person. It's kind of interesting as they go into copy, um, how they kind of talk about copy and how important it is to design process for them. So anyway, what did you have for hottest trends? So one of the trends, I don't know if it's a hot trend, but I've been thinking more about it lately is the use of, and I didn't actually know what they call these pieces of software. You might be able to shed some light on that, but there are pieces of software like fast pace or a, what was the other one that we were using for awhile?
Speaker 3:32:11Like test it out with leadgenius or something like that. I'm not sure, but yeah, but anyway, so for people listening, what they are is essentially it's just another tool that hooks into your google analytics that then matches your web visitors to an Ip address and then communicates to you what companies are actually visiting your website, which is neat by the way. And so I kind of wanted to put the question to the audience. Is Anybody using these at all? Are you building lists with them? Does it work? Is there anybody out there? I mean like I just don't know. Is the data even good? Because we look, we look at ours and I'm like wow, look at all those people that uh, you know, the visit our website where you have to take any action on something like that, which we should by the way. But I'm just curious to see if anybody listening is actually doing it and what success they're having with it. It's a new technology for sure.
Speaker 2:32:58Yeah, it's kind of, it reminds me of the. I don't know if these are even around where the reverse the reverse phone lookup or whatever, where you could take a phone number and figure out, you know, there used to be like phone books like that. But yeah, I think it's super fascinating. I think it's um, yeah, I wonder about the accuracy. So like is it somebody that's just kind of, I think what we get a lot like we've analyzed ours and we look at some of these big companies, they're like, oh man, you know, maybe they're trying to figure out how to use this or something like that. But um, there's a lot of educational stuff on our website. So I think a lot of that is people trying to learn how to do things within their, in house marketing department, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a, not a good inviolable channel for us because that, that, that's a pretty good lead actually. But I think there's a lot of that where people are kind of, they're, they're at their work Ip, uh, doing some sort of research or whatever. And so depending on the industry you're in, that could be a good leader or not a good lead. So
Speaker 3:33:56it could be your website content. I never thought about it like that. So if you've got a really minimal focused website and then it might be very valuable if you have a sprawling content publication and most of your traffic's coming in through that, then it's probably not going to be as viable as a strategy to leverage. I never thought about it. Alright. Um, so
Speaker 2:34:13just to wrap up time here, so top recommendations, um, I'll throw out mine. So, um, I've just come across this but base camp again, we talked about them a lot or we do and on Youtube, but they've created a new channel called getting real, which is somewhat related entitled to their original book that they published and I think they're doing all of this content in preparation for a new book that they're coming out with. And I'm kind of excited about called Comm Company. And if you know anything about these guys, they're really about sort of, you know, bringing down the pace to a very measured and less phonetic sort of operating culture. And uh, but anyway, so, but the cool thing is why you should check this, this youtube channel out is there. They're really doing what we've talked about before is, is documenting instead of um, sort of producing content.
Speaker 2:35:06So they're literally, um, and this is been the fascinating part and when I was talking about copy, uh, it was really interesting to see how they do this, but there are, for instance, they're going through a design review for base camp for features that by the way you could see ahead of time or that they're coming out and they're literally literally sitting down and going through that design review process and you're learning how they do certain things in a lot different way actually. So there's a whole section on sort of design that Jason Fried manages. Um, and uh, and so they kind of talk about the design reviews and that kind of stuff. And then they got another sort of component in the channel. It's about sort of developing in a better way and the software engineer side, so you've got the design and you get the software developer side kind of running two channels and then that channel is run in a really kind of technical code way.
Speaker 2:35:58I mean he's sitting in the code, I don't know his name actually I know his twitter handle only because that's the way I always see him and he uses it everywhere but Dhh um, so its original kind of co founder with Jason, but it's kind of cool to watch him too because he pops open the code base and he's going line by line and talking about why they make certain decisions in the code. And so it's a really cool, cool channel. Um, and so fascinating to watch behind the scenes and you know, we'll, we'll maybe we'll try to do some more stuff like that because it is kind of cool. People want to see what your process is. Um, and you know, we're doing this kind of show our process but that's another cool way to do that. So you should definitely check out getting real. The youtube channel. I'm surprised you haven't told me about this until just now because I don't know necessarily have a recommendation this week and that sounds awesome. I can't wait the less I'll have to shoot it out to you. I've watched most of them, but I like to keep some secrets. Makes me sound and appear smarter than you.
Speaker 3:37:00That's going to be an ongoing process. That's why I got to keep things secret so I don't have a recommendation this week. I just want to return back and notice that you didn't make fun of me for admitting that I wrote, which I appreciate by though I thought it was an open cheap shot and uh, you know, I was waiting for it but there's not really one that likes poetry, but I definitely appreciate the arch. So, I mean I like words to like, like, like less words and more words. So I think, I don't know why poetry is just never really. It's probably, it was just too hard. It's not a very accessible medium. So. Okay. So here I'll make my recommendation to you to maybe some poetry that you would like. There are two poets, Robert Levine, a, which is a detroit poet, and he's like a middle class guy, like a blue collar family guy, and his stuff is kind of really interesting and all about manufacturing and at factories and whatever else.
Speaker 3:37:54It's very detroit specific. Uh, so that would be one and then the other one which a lot of people know, but, and a lot of people in like academic academia and make fun of him, which I don't know why because they always choose and make fun of everything that's popular. That's why I don't like academic, but a, is Billy Collins. He was at one time the US poet laureate. Uh, but he's very funny. Uh, and his, and his work is very accessible and it's like, I hate to say this because I'm sure he would be annoyed. It's great bathroom reading material, uh, because you can use the bag because you know, you can get through it fast. It makes, you know, it's a little giggle, a little insight, little time to think to yourself. So. Okay, that's fine. That's my recommendation. Everyone should read just a little bit. Okay. We'll just you how pedestrian my
Speaker 2:38:36tastes are probably. I'll tell you my two favorite poets. So Robert Frost, which probably everybody knows, but the other one is Shel Silverstein. I love where the sidewalk ends. Let's talk about bathroom reading. That's like in my kids, like I always read the, the. That was always a favorite read to the kids because it's short. You don't have to read a long book. So anyway, it's kind of cool. Get any. No, that Shel Silverstein, apparently it didn't write any of that. Well, some of them are a little mccobb. I mean like I lost, I lost his intent. His intent was not to write. Children's poetry just kind of came out that way and much like a cartoons in that way. If you really dig into it as an adult, like yeah, there's some dark concepts and selling his sister, you know, all that kind of stuff is that.
Speaker 2:39:28It's really funny. So it was never really intended to be children's poetry. It's kind of that way. And I remember reading an interview with them and he was kind of, I wouldn't say frustrated by the fact that children liked it. He was this very curt when he was like, well, no, that's awesome. I actually, if you read some of the original nursery rhymes before they've been doctored, those are some pretty nasty dark, dark moments too. Yes. Well, we all know that the root behind, uh, what do you call it? A ring around the Rosie, which is, this is the most depressing song about the black plague ever. Yeah. Why? Saying that to children at all?
Speaker 4:40:03I don't know. I don't know. It's Kinda crazy. All right, we're going to leave you with that and we'll see you next week on episode 10. Take it easy.