Leadership Under Pressure: Jared Peatman on the 20th Maine, Gettysburg, and Public Service Lessons

The episode features historian and leadership educator Jared Peatman discussing his book A Hell of a Regiment, a 10+ year research project on the 20th Maine and its pivotal role at Gettysburg as a story of ordinary civilians rapidly becoming an effective unit under national stakes. Peatman explains his lifelong interest in Civil War history, why the 20th Maine’s rank-and-file stories matter, and how training under West Point–trained Adelbert Ames, motivation to build a reputation back home, and trust enabled performance. He highlights Joshua Chamberlain’s transferable skills, communication, empathy, and lifelong learning, along with his handling of the Second Maine mutineers, persuading most to reengage and providing crucial manpower at Gettysburg. The conversation covers Little Round Top’s tactical significance, the bayonet charge decision under time pressure, and the veterans’ postwar hardships, memory-making, and commemoration. Peatman also promotes a June 3rd ACT-IAC “Small Bites” event tied to the book release.

A Hell of a Regiment: To Gettysburg and Beyond with the Twentieth Maine | ACT-IAC

A Hell of a Regiment: To Gettysburg and Beyond with the Twentieth Maine | ACT-IAC

Summary - A Hole in One with ACT-IAC

Voyagers Program | ACT-IAC

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Intro/Outro Music: See a Brighter Day/Gloria Tells
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(Episodes 1-159: Intro/Outro Music: Focal Point/Young Community
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Transcript

Yohanna: [00:00:00] Today on the buzz, we're talking about leadership under pressure, what it looks like when systems are fragile, when people are inexperienced, and when the stakes are national. Our guest is Jared Peatman, author of Hell of a Regiment, a deeply researched count of the 20th main regiment. And their pivotal role at Gettysburg.
Yohanna: While this is a Civil War story, it's also a public service story about ordinary people stepping into responsibility when failure isn't an option. Welcome to the show, Jared. How are you feeling? 
Jared: Great. It's, uh, great to be here, and I'm gonna steal that intro. You just described the book better than I can describe it myself.
Jared: So that was, that was wonderful. 
Yohanna: Oh, no way. This excerpt that I have, I, I hope to read the book, but that really feels like, oh, these folks are just like. They're, they're just like regular people and they like stepped into something and you really can't fail. 'cause if you fail, you're, you're outta here, you know, game over 
Jared: a Absolutely.
Jared: And I think, you know, the story of the 20th main, which [00:01:00] some folks might be aware of already and, and maybe not, but it, it, it's a really appealing one because it is a story of everyday people who had been civilians just a year earlier that sign up for the army in this moment of crisis and then, um, perform beyond anyone's.
Jared: You know, wildest imagination. And, and I think part of the reason it has so much interest is because we, we can all sort of hope that we would, we would be that person in that moment. Um, you know, that, that leader, the people in the ranks. Uh, and so it's a really, uh, an inspiring story. 
Yohanna: Yeah, for sure. So for our listeners meeting you for the first time, what's your background?
Yohanna: And I really wanna know what pulled you. Towards civil war history in the first place. 
Jared: Uh, so I became interested in history when I was, was very, very little. I don't really know why, to be honest. Um, but at a, you know, very young age, elementary school when I, I grew up in Maine. So that's in part why ultimately, I came to this story when I was in the sixth [00:02:00] grade.
Jared: My mom brought me to Gettysburg for the first time and I got to tour the battlefield and. We then went back every year in April for the next seven years, and then eventually I went there for undergrad. Um, and, and sort of continued on from there. Um, but I had become interested in the story of the 20th Maine, uh, literally in, in elementary school.
Jared: That's why I went to Gettysburg College. I didn't go there and then become interested later. Um, and it's one that I set aside for a little while. I did all of my, uh, masters and then doctoral work on the Gettysburg Address. Um, but then after I finished that book, uh, about a dozen years ago now, I turned back to sort of my first love of the 20th Maine and have spent the last, uh, 10 plus years working and writing this book that is gonna be coming out in June.
Yohanna: Yeah, so June, it's, that's a great summary. Read, you know, on the beach, understand what was going on in Gettysburg. 'cause we really just know it, you know, from the address. But the war itself is, is, you know, really interesting. So out of all of the units that you [00:03:00] could have focused on, what was it about their story that that felt especially urgent to tell?
Yohanna: Just, you know, right now, 
Jared: so when I was a kid, there weren't a lot of books about main units that fought during the Civil War. Um, there was an iconic book that had come out in 1957 on the 20th Maine. It was written by a man named John Poland. It was a groundbreaking book because it was the first history of a Civil War regiment that wasn't written by or survivor of the regiment.
Jared: So it was kind of that, you know, next generation, uh, Poland was a journalist. He wrote fantastically well, uh, you would sort of call it a, a professional, not a personal memoir. Sort of history of the unit. So when I was a kid that was available and I, I read that and absolutely fell in love with the story of the unit.
Jared: Their commander, uh, is a person who had been a college professor at Bowden College when the war began. And so he's, he's this person that I think we can all kind of empathize with, right? And, [00:04:00] and sort of hope, um, that in his situation we would, you know, rise to the challenge in the way that, that he did.
Jared: Poland also really personalized some of the men in the unit, which was rare at the time. In the 1950s, most people were still writing sort of the great man history, um, and. But Poland told the story from some of the men in the in the ranks, and as I became older and more and more sources became available, some things became digitized.
Jared: Historians started to change their approach. These stories of the men in the ranks were really what drew me to, to looking more deeply into the 20th Maine, getting to know these ultimately 506 men who were, who were at the battle of Gettysburg, who were they, what were their stories, what were their lives like before the war, during the war, after the war.
Jared: Um, and, and, and that's really where I think the richness of these, of these stories comes from. 
Yohanna: So there's texts that inspired you to create more texts. I, [00:05:00] um, I understand that our listeners work in government or they work public interest rules that they didn't originally trained for. They didn't go to college to do these roles, but suddenly they find themselves responsible for like big outcomes in the book.
Yohanna: The 20th main. They transformed from, you know, civilians into just these effective fighting. Forces of nature, you know, in, in about 10 months in all in, you know, in under a year. Uh, what do you think made that possible? 
Jared: That was really the question, um, that I started off with at the heart of chapter one. Um, e each, there's six chapters in the book and each chapter tries to answer a central question, uh, essentially.
Jared: And, and as I started thinking about the structure of the book, um. You know, it's jumping ahead a little bit, but at Gettysburg they would undertake a series of really complicated maneuvers on the battlefield to face different threats. And then ultimately they ran out of ammunition and they made a bayonet charge, um, [00:06:00] that, that secured their position.
Jared: And it sounds completely, you know, crazy. This thing that they did in the heat of the moment. And, and as you just said, they were only in the army for about 10 months before. This is really the. It's only the second time that they've really been in heavy combat. Uh, and so it's remarkable that they, they did all this.
Jared: And so the question at the heart of chapter one is, is how, how, how did they transform from a group of civilians in the summer of 1862 to this highly effective unit, um, in 1863? And so that's really what I tried to tease out of that. What was the. The bonding, what was the training that they went through during the course of that and and then also questions around.
Jared: Motivation, you know, what happened? And there were a number of incidents that made them desperate to prove themselves, um, when they got the chance. A theme that runs throughout the, the, uh, the book is their wish to establish a reputation. You know, they weren't well [00:07:00] thought of for a few different reasons early on, and it really frustrates them because.
Jared: They have a strong reputation within the Army, but back in the state of Maine, they're viewed quite differently and they are just chomping at the bit for this chance to prove that they're as good as they have come to think they are. And it turns out Gettysburg is really the first chance to, to do that.
Jared: But there's another question you sort of alluded to there too, which is, uh, you know, how did these folks, much like government folks today, much like leaders today. How did they excel in these different environments? And that really is the question I tried to answer in chapter two. I took a deeper look at their commander, Joshua Chamberlain, who uh, is well known in a lot of circles.
Jared: But he had been this college professor who excelled as a college professor excels during the war, and then becomes the governor of Maine. And the aftermath excels in that role as well. And so part of the question I tried to answer there [00:08:00] was, how did he do that? How did he excel in all of these different, different roles?
Jared: And so I went back to his sort of earliest childhood all the way through his passing, ultimately in, in 1914, to try to answer that question as well. 
Yohanna: Yeah, so, so, so these folks wanted, they wanted to be known back home. That's crazy. You know, like, that's absolutely bonkers to me because you're, you're already fighting a war I guy.
Yohanna: Like, you're good. You're like, how about you? And it's like, no, I want that kind of legendary status back home. You know? So it kind of talks about like the rapid transformation. You know, it kind of tells us, it informs us about their motivation, maybe the trust that they had with each other. Um, accountability for each other's lives.
Yohanna: You know, when people are serving something large, larger than themselves, they kind of have to step, step it up, you know? 
Jared: Absolutely. You know, one of the fun things has been. You know, I sort of have two [00:09:00] roles. I have my, uh, you know, my training as a historian, but my day job and, and any of your listeners that might know me, know me from the leadership development events I do that use history, um, as sort of the entry point, as the metaphor as as the, the teaching tool.
Jared: Um, and so I've developed some leadership case studies that I've delivered for ACT IAC a number of times. Uh, and one of them is on this whole question of, of team building, you know, how did the 20th Main and I compare 'em to another small team, how did they. Um, transform, uh, uh, from these folks who had been just civilians into this, this force.
Jared: And it's exactly the things that you, you talk about, there's a level of training. There's the trust building that goes on, both the men trusting each other, but trusting their officers as well. What can we learn from that? Um, there's the, you know, the accountability piece and the reputation piece as well.
Jared: Um, back in Maine, they were sort of being, um, cast in a negative light because for a variety of reasons, they've been [00:10:00] left out of a lot of the major battles that occurred. Early in their, their time in the service. And people back in Maine are saying they're not doing anything. They're not contributing in the way that these other regiments from Maine are.
Jared: And that's part of what drives all of this motivation that they have as well. 
Yohanna: I, I'm listening to you and I know that like in government and even in just like civic tech, we often ask people to lead, lead before you feel ready. And so from your research, what do you think mattered? More for the 20th main.
Yohanna: So was it experience or the commitment to the mission? 
Jared: I think the experience is critical and I think, um. One of the things that is really important is when they, this is a unit that joined. These are men that enlisted about a year into the war. They don't rush off and enlist in April of 1861 when the war begins.
Jared: These are men that enlist in the summer of 1862 when the war is going really badly for the union, and Lincoln calls for an additional [00:11:00] 300,000 volunteers. Uh, and so they enlist in late August of 1862. There is a major battle. The Battle of Antietam comes just about a week after they have arrived in Washington dc.
Jared: They are present at that battle, but they're not engaged. They're part of the units that are held in reserve, and I think that's really important because what it means in the end is they have about three and a half months of training, and they were initially led by a man named Adelbert Ames, who had gone to West Point, graduated fifth in his class.
Jared: Very impressive guy. Would later be awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions at the first Battle of Bull Run. This is a guy who really knows, knows his business, and so he takes that three and a half months of downtime after Antietam, and he trains these men to a really, really high standard. And what it means is by the time that they first see some fairly limited action at the Battle of Fredericksburg in late 1862, they know exactly what to do.
Jared: And so they [00:12:00] play a small role in that battle. It builds their confidence. They realize how confident they've become. They realize how well led they are, and that's what makes them eager to take on, you know, even bigger challenges. There's a, a flip side to this story. There are a number of units, um, from, from other states that enlist at the same time as the 20th.
Jared: They're put directly into the Battle of Antietam and they have no training. There's some evidence they haven't even been taught how to load their weapons yet, and they are crushed by a Confederate attack. They lose their confidence. In fact, there's one unit called the 16th Connecticut, and a recent book that came out about them, the, the title is a Broken Regimen, and so you know this idea that.
Jared: The 20th, Maine had time to get up to speed, I think is really important. I like quoting, um, uh, Bruce Lee, and in fact, I quoted Bruce Lee and in the first chapter of this book, a little bit of an odd thing to do in a Civil War book. But anyway, um, [00:13:00] Bruce Lee once said, in a moment of adversity, we don't rise to the level of our expectations.
Jared: We fall to the level of our training. And so one of the cautionary things that I, you know, I, I suggest people think about is. This idea that we can throw people into it and they will, you know, get up to speed. That's not always a great idea. You know, sort of the, you know, right at the edge of your capabilities is one thing, but throwing folks into the deep end, the experience of the 20th main, which suggests to us is maybe not the best path forward.
Yohanna: Yeah. They had a little bit, you know, they built up that confidence fuel, and that takes you a long way. It, it may, it may not take you all the way, but it'll take you. Some other way. Yeah, I, I agree with that. So you, you mentioned Joshua Chamberlain and you're telling, how much of his leadership do you think was instinct and how much did he have to kind of learn un under pressure?
Yohanna: 'cause you know, he didn't go to West Point. He probably could have. You know, taught at West Point, but he didn't, he didn't really go there. He was a [00:14:00] professor, you said? 
Jared: Yeah. He's a professor of modern languages. When the war begins at Bowden College, he'd been a professor of rhetoric and, and other things before.
Jared: Um, he's 34 years old at the time of the Battle of Gettysburg. The conclusion I came to in researching this chapter on Chamberlain and, and sort of the best way to think about his. Ability to excel in multiple different environments, I think is that he's somebody who had some core skills and capabilities.
Jared: He's a fantastic communicator. Um, he is somebody who has empathy. In fact, when empathy was first used in the Army, uh, manual Army training doctrine in 2011, it was in reference to Joshua Chamberlain. So his ability to understand his students, his ability to understand the men that fought under him, including some of those who would mutiny at one point.
Jared: Oh wow. Um, his ability to understand voters, you know, after the war is over, Chamberlain's real. Skill, I think, is that he understood what he was good [00:15:00] at and he understood how to apply that in different environments. One of those key skills was learning, you know, he was a lifelong learner, and so when he decided that duty required that he entered the Army in 1862, he took it on like a.
Jared: You know, a crash course in, in graduate studies of military theory. And fortunately for him, the man who was in charge, edelberg Ames, was well equipped to, to tutor Chamberlain. Um, and so they're studying all of the tactics and Joman he's writing home to his wife, saying, send me my copy of, of Jonni, which is a book on military theory.
Jared: Um, Ames and I are gonna make a study of it. Uh, and, and that's really how he excels during the war, but also before. After the war. 
Yohanna: Wow, okay. You're in the middle of a battlefield and you want to write a study. That's incredible. Do you think that he made any mistakes? And if he did, how do you think that kind of like shaped his, his leadership?
Jared: He certainly makes mistakes, [00:16:00] um, throughout. And what's interesting is a series of letters that he exchanges with his, his wife throughout the course of his time in the service in the late fall of 1862. So he's been in the Army for about four months now. There's a marked shift in his language, in his writing back to his wife early on.
Jared: It's all about, I'm trying to get up to speed. I'm doing everything I can. You can tell that he, he knows he's not. You know, fully up to speed, yet he knows he is not quite capable. He doesn't have the knowledge that he needs to be able to lead these men in combat. But then there's that shift. He sort of gained that knowledge and he starts to say to her things like, well, I feel pretty sure that now I'd be able to look the people back in the state, in, in the face, um, you know, when I return.
Jared: Mm-hmm. He, he's starting to feel sort of that competent, so that self-awareness of. Areas where he's not as strong and, and then that sort of realization of when he's passed that hurdle, I think is, is quite interesting. Oh, 
Yohanna: that's amazing. 
Jared: So that's, that's [00:17:00] just one, you know, sort of, sort of piece of, of that.
Yohanna: Yeah, I, I, many of our public sector leaders, they don't get to fail quietly, you know, like they don't get those private, intimate letters, you know, back home. They're learning in real time under scrutiny, breaking news. Um, you know, one of the most compelling parts of, I think. The book is that integration of the mutant ears from the second Maine.
Yohanna: Why is that story so important? You know, to understanding the regiment success. So we're talking about the 20th, Maine. Now the second Maine comes in and they're like, no. 
Jared: Well, ultimately if you go to the Battle of Gettysburg and, and, and we'll, we'll get there eventually as we discuss. 
Yohanna: Yeah, 
Jared: it, it's incredibly close in the end.
Jared: You know, the 20th Maine's ability to hang on and eventually, um, to defeat the Confederates that are opposing them is a very, very close run thing. Um, Michael Uim wrote a leadership book about 20 years ago, called The Leadership Moment, and he has a [00:18:00] great line in that book. He says, leadership is both a product of today's actions and yesterday's groundwork.
Jared: And so it turns out six weeks before the Battle of Gettysburg on literally the day that Chamberlain took command of the unit, he had been the lieutenant colonel, the deputy essentially, and the colonel's been promoted. Um, and now Chamberlain has taken over. He's now gonna be leading the unit after, um, about nine months or so in the service.
Jared: That very day he's told, um, look, we've got a bit of an issue for you to handle. There's another main regiment. The second main, they'd enlisted in 1861. Um, the unit is being mustered out of service. They had signed up for two years, but a number of the men in the unit actually signed up for three years.
Jared: They signed three year contracts. Now, they were promised at the time that they'd get to go home when the rest of the unit went home. There just weren't any two year. Pieces of paper. So they had to sign these three year pieces. But now the government's decided [00:19:00] we're actually gonna keep you for all three years.
Jared: And they've mutiny. Um, which, you know, they're not. You know, fighting. They're not, you know, punching anybody mutiny. It's just the refusal to obey orders. Um, and so, you know, they've petitioned back to the governor, we need to be able to come home. But the Army's decided they're staying and they have told Joshua Chamberlain, there's about 125 of 'em.
Jared: We're transferring them to you tomorrow, and you need to figure out a way to get these, and I'm gonna use a modern phrase, disengaged employees to reengage in this unit. And what Chamberlain does over the next six weeks or so is he's able to persuade 95% of them to reengage in the unit. When you get to Gettysburg, 74 of these men are with the unit at Gettysburg.
Jared: I don't think there's any way. That the 20th Maine could have held without those 74 reinforcements. And so in the chapter I look at, you know, the full kind of context of this mutiny, [00:20:00] what really drove it, and you know, what the men were thinking, what they were writing, how Chamberlain dealt with it, and what we can learn from that as well.
Jared: This is one of the pieces that I've taken as a leadership case study, and so for a number of times for different ACT IAC groups, I've presented a session on employee engagement that brings in all of the research from Gallup and Carnegie and the Federal Viewpoint Survey and, and other places, but uses this story of Chamberlain's intervention with these mu years to sort of bring it all to life.
Yohanna: Yeah. It sounds as if, like, if we were to bring it into today's times, it sounds as if, you know when government teams. They like inherit like a broken system or they inherit people that were shaped, you know, by previous failures. You know, what was it? I really wanna know what, what it was that Chamberlain did to get these folks like re-engaged.
Yohanna: Like I wanna know those words that he used, or I guess maybe exercises and stuff. 
Jared: I think that's such a great point, you know, so often. You know, [00:21:00] hopefully it's not, you know, you and your leadership that are turning people off, making them disengagement. But you're gonna inherit those folks, right? They're gonna get transferred to you.
Jared: You're gonna take over a new team and all of a sudden you can tell that they're there. And it's not a problem if you're creating, but you can't just let it fester. Chamberlain does a few things. Um, the very first thing that he does is he rides over to his core commander, a guy named George Mead at the time, and he asks for some latitude.
Jared: And Chamberlain never really writes. What that latitude that he receives from George me is, but I'm convinced it was time. It was the okay from George Mead that you don't have to have these men recommitted to the unit tomorrow. You can sort of let time play out and that turns out to be Chamberlain's biggest tool.
Jared: In the end, he will listen to them, he'll listen to their grievances. They send a petition to the governor. He sends two letters to the governor on their behalf. At the same time, he's telling the men I have to uphold the standards [00:22:00] of the organization. Um, and so they are told on May 27th that they have to show up for duty the next morning.
Jared: About two thirds of the men are willing to give their new commander a chance, and so. They show up on drill, they drop the descent and it's over. But about 40 of them do not. About 40 of them will simply stay in their tents. And so Chamberlain has them, um, placed under arrest. Technically, that just means their guns are taken away and they walk at the back of their regimen and he's gonna let time play out.
Jared: And over the next few weeks, almost all of those men will eventually, the further they get from the situation that had frustrated them. All the frustration just kind of leaks away. And one by one they'll reengage in, in the unit. Now there are two men who are an exception. One is Henry Moore. He's from my hometown by the way.
Jared: Um, and another is, um, Benjamin Coombs. And they will start to walk up and down the streets of where the 20th Manus camped. [00:23:00] And they are trying to incite others to mutiny. They're swearing, they are shouting, they're saying things like. I'll never serve another day under this flag. I'd rather go fight under the flag of the rebels than fight for this army.
Jared: And Chamberlain has them arrested. Court-martial charges are made out against him, and Henry Moore is court-martialed on June 1st, and he's sentenced to execution. Um, now Lincoln will actually commute the sentence about two weeks later. Moore is not executed. He does, um, quite a while in hard labor and that eventually he's released from that.
Jared: He lives until the, the 1890s. Um, but it shows this kind of varied approach. This not one size fits all. Some folks are almost immediately ready to rejoin if you just give them the chance. Some folks just need to let things sort of dissipate and some folks. You're not gonna be able to bring around. And Chamberlain deals with them as well.
Jared: There's a man in the unit. 
Yohanna: Yeah, 
Jared: John O'Connell, who writes a journal after the war, and he says that, uh, and [00:24:00] I'm paraphrasing, but he says, you know, at first we were pretty upset. He says, but eventually we came around owing to the disposition of the colonel and the officers to treat us fairly. Yeah. Uh, and so ultimately the mutiny breaks.
Jared: The men join the 20th Maine and they become some of the most important members. One will actually win the Medal of Honor on Little Round Talk. 
Yohanna: When you strip away the mythology, we actually. What actually made the 20th Maines stand so extraordinary at at little round top? 
Jared: So, Gettysburg is a three day battle.
Jared: It turns out to be the biggest battle of the war. In retrospect, a lot of folks call it the turning point of the war, of the three day battle. It's really the second day that is also the turning point of the battle. The Confederates had clearly won on the first day. On the second day of the battle, the union is in a defensive position on some hills and ridges that are south of Gettysburg.
Jared: And there's an attack by the Confederates. They're p us to launch flank attacks or attacks on both ends of [00:25:00] the union line at almost the same time. And so the attack on the south end of the line comes in the late afternoon. It starts around four o'clock on July 2nd, about 18,000 Confederates, um, will, will make this attack and, uh, in this moment of crisis.
Jared: The 20th main, which had been in reserve position, is sent to Occupy along with the other units of its brigade, uh, little round top, which marks the south end of the union line. It's a hill that rises about 150 feet higher than the surrounding area. And it's a real key point on the battle because just behind it are the two main supply roads and retreat routes for the Union Army.
Jared: If everything went. Badly. And so it's a really, really critical position ultimately to hold. Now at Gettysburg, there were 506 men from the 20th Maine. Um, and a unit that is gonna oppose them, that is trying to push them off of this hill is from Alabama. It's the 15th Alabama, um, with some men from the 47th Alabama as well.
Jared: So the 20th is [00:26:00] outnumbered, um, about 800 to 500. So they're outnumbered by about 50%. And over the course of the battle, which lasts a little over an hour, they are. Uh, attacked five different times by these men from Alabama. Um, so much so that they actually run out of ammunition. And in this critical moment, Chamberlain who's been given an order to hold the ground at all hazards, doesn't do the easy thing and retreat, but instead orders his men to fix bayonets and they will charge at the enemy.
Jared: And BT charges in the Civil War tend to go one of two ways. Um. If it's a bad idea, you've brought knives to a gunfight and you are literally just shot down by the people that you are charging against. If on the other hand, it's a good idea, then the enemy tends to flee, and that's exactly what happened in this case.
Jared: The 20th main will capture 300 prisoners from five different regiments, um, that were fighting in that area. They secured their front, but also the front. Of their, the rest of their brigade [00:27:00] as well. And ultimately they'll hold onto this position. It's considered so important, um, that in the aftermath, both Chamberlain will win the Medal of Honor as well as the color bearer.
Jared: Andrew Tosser, one of those former mtier that we talked about earlier. Um, and multiple generals will talk about, um, little Round Top is the key to the Battle of Chamberlain, as you know, one of the most effective, one of the most important commanders of the entire battle because of what happened on Little Round Top.
Yohanna: How do you make that decision? How does Chamberlain come to something like that where he is like, you guys gotta go run at them. You guys gotta get closer. You guys are like, for me to understand that choice, you know, to go and tell these folks, am I talking about strategy? Am I talking about this is just an instinct?
Yohanna: Or is it like. Necessity. Like what? Uh, I don't, please tell me like 
Jared: Yeah. It, it's, it's the moment, right? Yeah. It's the moment. And I think that's why the story resonates so much with folks [00:28:00] is, is, you know, they have the same question you have, you know, how in the heck did these guys do this? In that, in that moment, for Chamberlain's perspective, his middle name is quite interesting.
Jared: His middle name, which actually was his given name at birth. Lawrence, so Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and in the family Bible, they wrote that he was named after Commodore Lawrence of the war of 1812. James Lawrence is the man who said, um, don't give up the ship. As his ship the Chesapeake was, was sinking, don't give up the ship.
Jared: And so Chamberlain has been hearing this story for his entire life of a leader who in this moment of crisis, fought on to the end. There's no retreat, there's no surrender, don't give up the ship. And so I think on a personal level, that's part of what you're hearing as well for the unit. They have come to believe in Chamberlain.
Jared: He has been with them from the start. He had performed very well at Fredericksburg when he was the number two. They believe in his leadership. Now, ADA Edward Ames, who'd been their first commander, is a [00:29:00] fantastic trainer. He knows what he's doing. He's kind of a pain. And so when hit Albert Ames is promoted and he leaves.
Jared: It's almost like on sports teams, when you have the one coach who you know, really trains the team really well, but the players don't necessarily really like him. Yeah. And then he leaves. Yeah. And the new inspirational guy comes in and for a little while anyway, you have the best of both. You have all the training of the old guy, but now every.
Jared: Loves the new guy and they're gonna do whatever he asked him to do, and the team kind of goes to, to new levels. Mm-hmm. I think that's in a sense, what you're seeing here with Chamberlain as well, and that training piece is critical too. The men in that moment. The band at charge sounds crazy to us, but they've practiced it.
Jared: They see Chamberlain's mental vision that he's trying to get them into. They understand how is this easy? No, but can this get us the results that we need? Can this bring us victory? They see that it can, and so when he orders it, that's why they follow. Now, there's an interesting counter. 20th Maine runs [00:30:00] out of ammunition.
Jared: What do you think's going on with the 15th? Alabama? They've run out of ammunition too. At almost the same moment they've been fighting against each other. The difference is their commander has said to them, we're out of ammunition. Let's go ahead and retreat at the next. Good chance. Chamberlain has said, we're out of ammunition.
Jared: Let's go ahead and charge. And so it's an interesting sort of different mindset that you have. Yeah. Between these two leaders, 
Yohanna: I think our listeners, I think some, some of our listeners, they, they make high stakes decisions. You know, with imperfect information, like this is what I know. I guess this, I'll make a decision on what I, on what I have.
Yohanna: Um, does the 20th Maine, does that story change how you think about risk in public service? Different, of course, if you're in an office versus a battlefield, but do you think it changes? Kind of like those kinds of the decisions that we, that we see made. 
Jared: Yeah. My, it, it's a different way to think about it, but my favorite book on risk management is by Jim Collins.
Jared: It's called Great By Choice. It's his follow up [00:31:00] book to Good to Great, which I'm sure many people have read. And it's about luck and opportunity essentially, and, and he has a really interesting line in that book. He says that the question to ask yourself when you're facing. A moment. It's maybe a moment of opportunity.
Jared: A moment of risk is how much time until the risk profile changes. In other words, how long do I have to make this decision before, you know, things start to unravel or, or the decision is taken away from me. Now, Colin says, usually you have a lot more time to make the decision than you think. Don't rush into something when you actually could have taken an hour or a week or a month.
Jared: But we, we want to do, do, do. There's other times when that risk profile changing is in 25 seconds and you're either gonna make the decision or it's gonna be made for you. And I think that's what Chamberlain realizes. There's no time to get word back to George Mead. Hey, general, what do you want us to do?
Jared: There's no time to hope that reinforcements come, that risk [00:32:00] profile. For as far as he knows is changing in the next 30 seconds. And so he's gotta make the decision right then. But I always think of that with this moment. How much time until the risk profile changes. 
Yohanna: Oh wow. Okay. Um, so with your book, you, you don't really stop at Gettysburg.
Yohanna: How did, how did the war and, and that moment in particular, shape the veterans' lives afterward? 
Jared: This is where I think my book breaks the most new ground, um, because, uh. Until post Vietnam, people didn't really look at the post-war lives of, of soldiers. And I think that's taken on even more urgency after Iraq and Afghanistan.
Jared: And we, we really are now, are, are thinking about post-war adjustments to coming home. Um, John Poland's book that I mentioned earlier from 1957, his fantastic, it Stops with the Victory Parade in 1865 and doesn't follow the men home at all. Um, so I, I tried to do just that and I did it really in two ways.[00:33:00] 
Jared: Um. Chronologically, my last two chapters overlap, but the first one, chapter five, looks at the, the men themselves and what they experienced after the war. What was their, how, first of all, how many of 'em made at home? Mm-hmm. How many of them made at home but had, had major disease, amputations, uh, et cetera.
Jared: What was their life expectancy? What were their lives like? What did they do for work? Um, did they move? Uh, and, and, and all of those types of types of things. And then the very last chapter looked at that same time period, but asked the question, how did they commemorate their service and how did they start to tell the story of what they had done during the war time?
Jared: So those two chapters overlap. Quite a bit. Um, I was struck to find that of the 506 men on little round top, um, 38 were killed or mortally wounded that day. Um, the 93 were wounded in addition to that, and a handful were captured by [00:34:00] the confederates. But when you look at what happened to them over the next two years before they ultimately were discharged at the end of the war, um, they fought in many more battles.
Jared: Um, they had many more men die ultimately of, of disease, be captured by the confederates. And so what it meant in the end is of those 506, they were only 167 that returned home without having been, um. Well, first of all, some were, were, were just killed. 78 of them, um, including the ones on little round top were, were dead.
Jared: Um, but, uh, many more had been discharged for disease, uh, and would live with the consequences of that for the rest of their life. Um, many of them had, um, been wounded, some of them multiple times. Joshua Chamberlain was wounded six times during the Civil War. Um, there were several men that were wounded at least three times, um, and several dozen that were wounded at least twice.
Jared: And so these men are living with the after effects of their service for the rest of their lives. [00:35:00] When, when they came home, those who were fortunate enough to be able to come home. 
Yohanna: Yeah. Is that why you think that a lot of them. Felt like this strong need to just actively preserve their story and their legacy and write about it and have journals because I mean, I'm assuming they just lived with the scars and they wanted to talk about their scars.
Jared: Yes and no. Um. One of the most interesting letters that I've ever read was written by the units defacto. Number two at Gettysburg, a gentleman named Ellis Spear, and in 1910, his step granddaughter wrote him a letter asking him about what had happened at Gettysburg. Now, step granddaughter, Ellis Spear, married the widow of one of the other officers in.
Jared: So Samuel Ke was a company commander at Gettysburg. He was killed in 1864. Um, and, you know, left, left, his widow, Ella Spear's wife passed away later. And so the two [00:36:00] widowers married each other. And Mildred Grant is writing to her step-grandfather, Ella Spear, asking about the war, and he writes her this amazing letter telling her.
Jared: About what happened at Gettysburg, but he writes it all in the language of the supernatural. 
Yohanna: Hmm. 
Jared: He talks about Colonel Chamberlain picking up a fence rail and hitting Confederates and Colonel Chamberlain's horse biting Confederates as they were chasing them. He talks about the bayonet charge, and he makes an analogy of a soldier bayonetted a man like he was a fish.
Jared: And then bayonetted five more. So he had 'em all wiggling on the end of his bayonet like they were fish. And what you realize in reading it is he couldn't write about the experience or wouldn't write about the experience in real language. 
Yohanna: Yeah. 
Jared: He talked about the war, but always at a distance. Mm-hmm. And I think that was true for a lot of the men.
Jared: Um, yeah. You know, what they have to write is [00:37:00] always a little bit sanitized. There are 150 Confederates that are shot in front of the 20th Maine. At Gettysburg, there are about 50 killed, about a hundred wounded. There are at least 30, um, accounts of what happened on little round top by the men, and only two will talk about actually shooting somebody else.
Jared: And so they'll talk about their participation in the battle, but it's always at sort of a distance, even in these letters home. Now, what prompts the. Uh, recollections that they will start to leave in the years after the war is reputation again. Um, you know, they had, they have one of the best reputations in the army during the war, but in the aftermath of the war, they start to go back to Gettysburg and they see other units are putting up monuments.
Jared: In fact, other units are putting up monuments close to their position where they did all of these things. 
Yohanna: Mm-hmm. 
Jared: And they start to worry that that same, you know, sort of lack of reputation that followed them in the early part of the [00:38:00] war that could be made permanent in the form of these granite and bronze markers if they don't start to tell their own story.
Jared: And that's what starts to prompt their, um, public recollections and then eventually the three monuments that they will erect at Gettysburg as well. 
Yohanna: So they had to, they had to fight again. They had to fight. You know, they're fighting in, in a different way this time just to keep, keep what it is that they did, you know, alive.
Yohanna: That's, that's, that's heartbreaking. 
Jared: They did. And it's so interesting because at first the fight is against, um, other union units that they feel are less deserving than them. 
Yohanna: Mm-hmm. 
Jared: And have started to, to, to make some claims. Um. Know for what they did during the battle, but then it becomes against the same old foe.
Jared: Um, Colonel Oats of the 15th Alabama. Their opponent starts to want to put up a monument to the 15th Alabama and to his little brother John, who had died during [00:39:00] the battle as well. And he wants to put it well within the lines of the 20th Maine, and alleged that they had pushed the 20th Maine back this vast distance.
Jared: They almost won the battle. So the men start putting forward their accounts too, of saying, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not what happened. And so you get this back and forth. Now I will say the men look forward to this back and forth because they have a very detailed. Micro view of the battle for the most part.
Jared: Mm-hmm. You know, they know what happened, feet either side of them. They don't know what the confederates were doing before they arrived in their front. They don't know what the grand strategy was. And so they love this exchange because they start to be able to fill in, oh, that's why that happened. You know, officers come forward from some of these Alabama regiments and say, I was the one who did this.
Jared: Oh, that's why that happened. So you start to see. Really the fleshing out of the, the broader story at the same time as well. 
Yohanna: That's amazing. Yeah. I You wouldn't have never [00:40:00] thought that there was. There, there was a conversation after a, a fight, you know, like there's this, a reconciliation in a, in a way where you're actually like having dialogue with your enemy.
Jared: Yeah. I think, you know, they sort of, they see each other, you know, at, at the common level. Um, as you know, folks who were both maybe not in a, the best of situations, um, there's not a lot of animosity between the, the fighting men on either side. Um. But there is a lot of curiosity in terms of how and why things happened the way they did.
Jared: So there's a newspaper called the Lincoln County News in Maine, which is edited by a former member of the unit, and it becomes a bit of a clearinghouse for information about. The unit and there's a whole series of articles, especially in the 1880s, which are, you know, the titles are things like another small mystery cleared up, you know, and it's these little bits and pieces of, initially there was a unit 16th, Michigan.
Jared: [00:41:00] Further to the 20th main's left. Why did they get moved? When did they get moved? How did we end up on the left flank? And then eventually people write in and, and they'll kind of figure it out. Um, you know why and how, you know, I ran into this confederate officer up on big, round top. I don't know what he was doing up there.
Jared: And that man literally writes in and says, it was me and this is why I was up there. This is what was happening. So you can see all of these pieces of the puzzle starting to, to fill in. Now these men would. Publicly have disagreements at a large scale about the righteousness of the Southern cause, et cetera.
Jared: There's no agreement on that. But in terms of the details of the battle, yeah, they really were almost collaborating in a lot of senses to work out, you know, the ins and outs and, and put those narratives together. 
Yohanna: Yeah. I can feel that you've spent a lot of. Time with these men, you know, through their letters, records, memories, you know, all of the gossip.
Yohanna: It sounds like they're just, they love just to talk, you know, talk about stuff. [00:42:00] Is there, is there something else that maybe stayed with you? The most, like, you know, once the book was finished, what, what's something that you, you haven't shared with us yet that kind of really stuck with you the most? 
Jared: I, I think the, the biggest thing is just simply the post-war lives of the men.
Jared: You know, we talk about these men, we are talking about them today. I wrote about them because of something that occupied one hour of their life, you know, that fight on, on little round top. That's what drew me to the story. That's what draws most people to the story. But when you read about their post-war lives, um, and everything that they did in the post-war, I mentioned Andrew Tozier, one of the ERs who became the color bearer of the unit.
Jared: He comes home as a disabled veteran. He's got a, um, he's lost a couple fingers. He's got a bullet lodged in his ankle. He is got another, um, pieces of, of, uh, artillery shell in his head from when he was hit in 1864. He can't find work. Um. He gets married and finds out his [00:43:00] wife is pregnant and he is told by the government that he's only one third disabled, he's gonna get $2 and 67 cents a month, and that's it.
Jared: Um, this isn't a time when a, a farm hand is making. Um, about $15 a month or so. So this is just a couple of days pay, and so he turns to a life of crime. He starts robbing banks, um, uh, clothing stores, starts wrestling, cattle, eventually gets caught. Um, and, and imprisoned briefly, um, in the state penitentiary.
Jared: It's supposed to be for five years, but he is pardoned by the sitting governor. Who in 1870 is Joshua Chamberlain, his old commander. Um, you know, that's just one story. There's another story. Albert Titus, um, returns home at the end of the war. He is mustered out. Uh, it doesn't go well for him. We don't really know exactly why he left home, in part because of an alcoholic father.
Jared: Um, and he, after a couple years at home says, uh, I'm going back to the army. So he reenlisted the peacetime army. He gets stationed in Texas. This is during the reconstruction [00:44:00] era, and he gets killed by the notorious. Uh, gunfighter Cullen Baker, who is a guy who is opposing the efforts of the Freedman's Bureau, which is trying to sort of keep the peace between the former enslavers and the formerly enslaved, help make labor contracts, et cetera, and Titus has sent to assist them in their capture of Cullen Bak and Cullen Baker.
Jared: Kills him with a shotgun, he dies, dies in Texas. Some of these other men, um, their, their postwar stories are just amazing. The last survivor of the unit, Leonard Cummings, lives until 1939. If you can imagine everything that he saw, um, during the course of his life. I mean, you know, the early, not our involvement, but the early parts of World War II have already started.
Jared: Not to mention World War I. And so, you know, I think it's a good reminder. Sometimes we think of folks because of. One particular phase in their life, but there's a lot more to that story. And for me, that was the most fun part of researching all of this, was [00:45:00] to find those additional stories. 
Yohanna: Yeah. This is amazing.
Yohanna: This is, this has been a great talk. I, I try to, you know, connect it with some of our listeners and, you know, our industry, um, civic life and, and things like that. I think that this conversation is, is a solid reminder that. Leadership often it begins before you're ready. It begins before you know that you are needed, you know, and, and that public services is ultimately about showing up, 
Jared: showing up and taking care of your people.
Jared: You know, I'm, I'm, you know, struck by Chamberlain's leadership on little round top is, is one thing and he wins to the Medal of honor for it. Um, but. The moment when Chamberlain pardons Andrew Tosser in the years after the war, he goes a step further. He pardons Andrew Tosser, and then he says, move into my house.
Yohanna: Hmm. 
Jared: And for the next five years, Andrew Tosser lives in Chamberlain's House. Hmm. Works for Joshua Chamberlain. He gives him a job, he gets him back on his feet. When Tosser [00:46:00] finally moves out in 1875, he's financially stable, he's in a better place, and he lives a, you know, he lives a straight and narrow life.
Jared: After that. That moment of leadership. It's not just the flashy, the bayonet charge, the those other pieces. It's that small, very human piece of leadership as well that I think is so, so fascinating. 
Yohanna: Yeah. That's such an inspiration. Oh, Joshua. What, what I'd like to do now is just maybe pitch to our listeners that they can attend, uh, one of our events, our small Bites program that, uh, Jared is going to be doing with ACT IAC.
Yohanna: Uh, and that is the day after his book is released. So let's, let's talk about what small bites is gonna be. 
Jared: Yeah. June 3rd. Um, so it'll be a, a, a reception. Um, and then I'll do a little bit of a talk about some of the most interesting, um, statistics and stories and leadership insights that I think come out of the book, uh, a bit more detail than we've been able to provide here today.
Jared: And then we will open it up for q and a for, for folks that want to ask more [00:47:00] questions. And then we'll, uh. We'll sit around and chat a little bit more after that as well. So that's the plan. The ticket comes with a copy of the book as well, so you'll have a chance to to read even more in the aftermath. 
Yohanna: Oh yeah.
Yohanna: Absolutely. That's gonna be fun. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much. 
Jared: Thank you. 
Yohanna: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. You've blown my mind. 
Jared: Well, good. You asked great questions, so it was easy to, easy just to respond. So that was good. 
Yohanna: Yeah. Thank you so much. Is there any, uh. Is there a place where folks can reach out to you?
Yohanna: Are you on LinkedIn? Are you open to? 
Jared: Yep, I am on LinkedIn. Um, and I have a, a website as well. It's just history leadership.com. Um, but yeah, certainly folks are welcome to, to reach out. LinkedIn's probably easiest. 
Yohanna: Thank you so much. 
Jared: Thank you. It was great chatting with you. 
Yohanna: This has been such an insightful conversation.
Thank you for sharing your journey and experiences with us and to our listeners. If you are interested in learning more about ACT IAC Professional Development Program, be sure to [00:48:00] check out ACT IAC. Dot org slash professional development. Until next time, keep learning and we'll see you in the next episode.