{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.16,"endTime":3.679,"body":"One really amazing thing about a standard is, let's say,"},{"startTime":3.679,"endTime":7.44,"body":"there's not nothing that really can support. There's no code"},{"startTime":7.44,"endTime":11.065,"body":"or standard out there that says, hey, how to do something. We have"},{"startTime":11.065,"endTime":14.585,"body":"consensus on something we could actually have that approved in the"},{"startTime":14.585,"endTime":16.7,"body":"standard because it's a consensus document."},{"startTime":19.66,"endTime":19.66,"body":"Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast the show where you learn to plan, build,"},{"startTime":19.66,"endTime":20.4,"body":"and live the tiny"},{"startTime":23.715,"endTime":27.395,"body":"lifestyle. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman, and this is episode 296 with Janet"},{"startTime":27.395,"endTime":31.235,"body":"Thome. Janet is deeply involved in the tiny"},{"startTime":31.235,"endTime":34.67,"body":"house movement, leading the Tiny House Alliance USA and serving as"},{"startTime":34.67,"endTime":37.97,"body":"the membership secretary of the ASTM International Tiny House subcommittee."},{"startTime":38.11,"endTime":41.894,"body":"In this episode, Janet will share insights into the"},{"startTime":41.894,"endTime":45.734,"body":"current state of the tiny house market, the impact of recent economic shifts and"},{"startTime":45.734,"endTime":49.32,"body":"the ongoing efforts to develop standards that ensure safety, affordability, and"},{"startTime":49.32,"endTime":52.539,"body":"compliance in the industry. She'll also discuss the"},{"startTime":53.079,"endTime":56.599,"body":"importance of certification for owner builders and the essential role of inclusive regulations. Join us"},{"startTime":56.6,"endTime":56.899,"body":"as we dive deep into these topics and explore the future potential of tiny house"},{"startTime":56.9,"endTime":57.655,"body":"living with Janet Thome. But before we"},{"startTime":64.215,"endTime":67.84,"body":"get started, did you know that I"},{"startTime":67.98,"endTime":71.6,"body":"personally send tiny house newsletter every week on Tuesdays? It's"},{"startTime":71.9,"endTime":75.295,"body":"called Tiny Tuesdays, and it's a weekly email"},{"startTime":75.595,"endTime":79.055,"body":"with tiny house news, interviews, photos, and resources. It's free"},{"startTime":79.435,"endTime":83.08,"body":"to subscribe, and I even share sneak peeks of things that"},{"startTime":83.08,"endTime":86.22,"body":"are coming up, ask for feedback about upcoming podcast guests, and"},{"startTime":86.68,"endTime":90.455,"body":"more. It's really the best place to keep a pulse"},{"startTime":90.455,"endTime":94.075,"body":"on what I'm doing in the tiny house space and also stay informed of"},{"startTime":94.135,"endTime":96.775,"body":"what's going on in the tiny house movement. To"},{"startTime":98.73,"endTime":100.59,"body":"sign up, go to thetinyhouse.net/newsletter, where"},{"startTime":103.13,"endTime":106.935,"body":"you can sign up for the Tiny Tuesday's newsletter. And, of course, you can unsubscribe"},{"startTime":106.935,"endTime":110.695,"body":"at any time. I will never send you spam. And if you ever don't"},{"startTime":110.695,"endTime":114.45,"body":"wanna receive emails, it's easy to unsubscribe. So again, that's"},{"startTime":114.45,"endTime":115.909,"body":"thetinyhouse.net/newsletter. Thanks,"},{"startTime":118.45,"endTime":121.99,"body":"and I hope you enjoy next week's Tiny Tuesday's newsletter. Alright."},{"startTime":136.569,"endTime":140.345,"body":"I am here with Janet Thome. Janet is the"},{"startTime":140.345,"endTime":143.805,"body":"founder, president, and treasurer of Tiny House Alliance"},{"startTime":143.944,"endTime":147.564,"body":"USA. Janet has led the tiny houses initiative"},{"startTime":147.704,"endTime":151.04,"body":"leading to the final approval of a new ASTM,"},{"startTime":151.26,"endTime":154.48,"body":"International Tiny House Sub Committee, E06.26,"},{"startTime":156.035,"endTime":159.255,"body":"within the e 06 performance of buildings committee."},{"startTime":159.955,"endTime":163.715,"body":"The tiny house subcommittee will develop and maintain standards specific to the"},{"startTime":163.715,"endTime":167.5,"body":"tiny house industry indefinitely. Janet Thome is"},{"startTime":167.5,"endTime":171.26,"body":"the membership secretary of the E06.26 tiny"},{"startTime":171.26,"endTime":174.755,"body":"house subcommittee as well. Janet, welcome to welcome back to the"},{"startTime":174.755,"endTime":178.435,"body":"show. Hi, Ethan. Thanks for the opportunity to speak about an update for"},{"startTime":178.435,"endTime":182.25,"body":"ASTM. Appreciate it. Yeah. And I definitely want to get"},{"startTime":182.25,"endTime":185.69,"body":"into those updates. But, you know, it's been a couple of years"},{"startTime":185.69,"endTime":189.425,"body":"since since you've been on the show. So I thought we could just start off"},{"startTime":190.305,"endTime":193.905,"body":"by kind of reviewing catching me up. For anyone who's"},{"startTime":193.905,"endTime":197.365,"body":"maybe hearing this for the first time, you know, what is"},{"startTime":197.88,"endTime":201.56,"body":"ASTM? And what is the, you know, what is"},{"startTime":201.56,"endTime":205.18,"body":"this tiny house subcommittee all about? In the simplest of terms,"},{"startTime":205.685,"endTime":209.385,"body":"ASTM International is one of the stand largest standard developers"},{"startTime":209.525,"endTime":213.019,"body":"in the world. And what they do is"},{"startTime":213.019,"endTime":216.799,"body":"basically they give industries a way to come together with their technical"},{"startTime":216.859,"endTime":220.459,"body":"experts and forge a direction that the"},{"startTime":220.459,"endTime":224.075,"body":"industry sees fit for their industry that doesn't have"},{"startTime":224.075,"endTime":227.675,"body":"standardization. And to begin, I think it's important to know what"},{"startTime":227.675,"endTime":231.28,"body":"standardization is. If you look around you, things that"},{"startTime":231.28,"endTime":235.12,"body":"work out and work well is they're standardized, how we do"},{"startTime":235.12,"endTime":237.38,"body":"an email, how we fax somebody,"},{"startTime":238.855,"endTime":242.455,"body":"how we download a movie, just as simple as things, how"},{"startTime":242.455,"endTime":246.295,"body":"car is built, an RV is built. So,"},{"startTime":246.295,"endTime":249.18,"body":"we are coming together with our technical experts."},{"startTime":249.88,"endTime":253.32,"body":"And we create consensus documents, which basically"},{"startTime":253.32,"endTime":256.464,"body":"means we agree upon a way that it can be done."},{"startTime":257.105,"endTime":260.945,"body":"And what ASTM's role is, is they're the publisher of the"},{"startTime":260.945,"endTime":264.79,"body":"standard. They don't interfere interfere with our development"},{"startTime":264.79,"endTime":268.55,"body":"and say, No, that's not a fit. Because they're not the experts in our"},{"startTime":268.55,"endTime":272.39,"body":"field we are. And so we're recruiting engineers and"},{"startTime":272.39,"endTime":275.945,"body":"architects and consumers and"},{"startTime":275.945,"endTime":279.625,"body":"insurance providers and anybody that has just touches this"},{"startTime":279.625,"endTime":283.37,"body":"industry and will affect their lives because of the documents"},{"startTime":283.37,"endTime":287.13,"body":"that we publish. It's very important that they"},{"startTime":287.13,"endTime":290.89,"body":"get involved on some level to be a part of our, you know,"},{"startTime":290.89,"endTime":294.595,"body":"this exciting opportunity. Did you have a question? Yeah, I was gonna I"},{"startTime":294.595,"endTime":297.875,"body":"was just gonna say something that you pointed out to me when we when we"},{"startTime":297.875,"endTime":300.66,"body":"spoke earlier, it's just that, you know, the ASTM"},{"startTime":301.76,"endTime":305.38,"body":"develops standards for the entire world rather than just for"},{"startTime":305.52,"endTime":309.345,"body":"one country or another country. I think that's very interesting. Yeah, they're called ASTM"},{"startTime":309.345,"endTime":312.725,"body":"International. And so that means there's 150"},{"startTime":313.105,"endTime":316.88,"body":"countries that have the possibility, I think it's actually gone up to 155,"},{"startTime":318.06,"endTime":321.5,"body":"but have the opportunity to contribute to be a"},{"startTime":321.5,"endTime":325.115,"body":"part of our standard development. What's also very"},{"startTime":325.115,"endTime":328.715,"body":"helpful to know is once a standard is published, it can be"},{"startTime":328.715,"endTime":332.55,"body":"amended. So, for instance, if the country doesn't like something in it,"},{"startTime":332.55,"endTime":336.17,"body":"they can amend it to adapt to their country as well. Okay."},{"startTime":336.31,"endTime":339.85,"body":"We had a very exciting meeting with the editors of E06."},{"startTime":340.085,"endTime":343.305,"body":"And we learned a lot more about how to do definitions"},{"startTime":343.685,"endTime":347.525,"body":"and how to reference other standards because we can reference, we're"},{"startTime":347.525,"endTime":351.19,"body":"not going to reinvent the wheel here. All over the world, you"},{"startTime":351.19,"endTime":354.87,"body":"know, the standards already exist, how you build houses, how do we"},{"startTime":354.87,"endTime":358.63,"body":"come together and make it simplified? What we want to do is make it"},{"startTime":358.63,"endTime":362.455,"body":"simplified enough to the builders actually want to build to it. You know,"},{"startTime":362.455,"endTime":366.295,"body":"I mean, we've always had this dream of doing what is called perhaps an"},{"startTime":366.295,"endTime":369.87,"body":"ANSI plus, you know, the builders all build to that ANSI"},{"startTime":369.93,"endTime":373.69,"body":"119.5 standard. But because it's an RV"},{"startTime":373.69,"endTime":376.405,"body":"standard, it's not really sufficient for housing."},{"startTime":377.425,"endTime":380.965,"body":"And all the builders, they exceed that standard."},{"startTime":381.345,"endTime":385.025,"body":"But because it's closed construction, and no one's really, truly knows behind the"},{"startTime":385.025,"endTime":388.39,"body":"walls. That's one thing why we need the standards."},{"startTime":388.45,"endTime":391.97,"body":"So people know, get everyone on the same page,"},{"startTime":391.97,"endTime":395.51,"body":"basically standardization gets everybody on the same page,"},{"startTime":395.634,"endTime":399.414,"body":"the billing official, the 3rd party agency, the manufacturer,"},{"startTime":400.195,"endTime":403.955,"body":"the consumer. We're all on the same page. It's okay. This is"},{"startTime":403.955,"endTime":407.19,"body":"how we do it. You know, we want to do the minimum requirements. And, of"},{"startTime":407.19,"endTime":410.55,"body":"course, the builders, they want to exceed their requirements. That's that's up to them as"},{"startTime":410.55,"endTime":414.335,"body":"well. What's exciting about ASTM is they do"},{"startTime":414.335,"endTime":418.175,"body":"standards on every imaginable industry"},{"startTime":418.175,"endTime":421.66,"body":"that you could think of commercial space, like cannabis,"},{"startTime":422.12,"endTime":425.88,"body":"3 d printing, 3 d printing houses. There's"},{"startTime":425.88,"endTime":429.465,"body":"a lot of sustainability standards for like hemp."},{"startTime":429.845,"endTime":432.985,"body":"Yep. Air Crete. There's straw bell,"},{"startTime":433.685,"endTime":437.43,"body":"any type of green building, toys"},{"startTime":437.43,"endTime":441.27,"body":"for kids. Got it. Right. So they they regulate or"},{"startTime":441.27,"endTime":444.97,"body":"they create standards for a lot of different industries, not just buildings,"},{"startTime":445.11,"endTime":448.665,"body":"and they're kind of sounds like they're the neutral arbiter, where they"},{"startTime":448.665,"endTime":452.425,"body":"bring stakeholders who are experts together to create the standards. Right."},{"startTime":452.425,"endTime":455.83,"body":"And they kind of maintain and publish them. I'm curious. Oh,"},{"startTime":455.83,"endTime":459.19,"body":"well, what ASTM's job is to do is to make sure"},{"startTime":459.19,"endTime":462.789,"body":"they we follow the ANSI essential requirements for due"},{"startTime":462.789,"endTime":466.324,"body":"process. There, which that means is there's a lack of"},{"startTime":466.324,"endTime":469.465,"body":"dominance by 1 industry, 1 person,"},{"startTime":470.005,"endTime":473.83,"body":"or, you know, someone who shows superior strength or knowledge that"},{"startTime":473.83,"endTime":477.59,"body":"could actually come over and take over the direction of it. It's a very"},{"startTime":477.59,"endTime":481.395,"body":"fair process where everyone has a vote and every voice matters. Interesting. And"},{"startTime":481.395,"endTime":484.935,"body":"their mission is to make it a safer world. Nice."},{"startTime":485.235,"endTime":488.9,"body":"And so besides lack of dominance, there's it's, you know,"},{"startTime":488.9,"endTime":492.52,"body":"it's open to the public, Ethan, no one can be denied"},{"startTime":492.98,"endTime":496.555,"body":"to be on the committee or to be involved. I like that"},{"startTime":496.555,"endTime":500.074,"body":"part. And it makes it very important because, you know,"},{"startTime":500.074,"endTime":503.61,"body":"people sometimes, you know, we have a world around us a lot of"},{"startTime":503.689,"endTime":507.289,"body":"times and things are happening, and we're not paying attention. And then"},{"startTime":507.289,"endTime":511.105,"body":"suddenly we like, oh, wow, we have laws we don't like we don't, there's things"},{"startTime":511.105,"endTime":514.245,"body":"that are around us that because we didn't participate."},{"startTime":515.505,"endTime":518.97,"body":"There you go. And you have to go by that. So this is a unique"},{"startTime":518.97,"endTime":522.57,"body":"opportunity, a very exciting opportunity, that we're going to make"},{"startTime":522.57,"endTime":526.19,"body":"history to develop standards that actually benefit"},{"startTime":526.305,"endTime":530.145,"body":"our industry and to keep it affordable. Keeping it affordable. Affordable is one of the"},{"startTime":530.145,"endTime":533.765,"body":"key, key focuses that we have because I want to support"},{"startTime":534.399,"endTime":538.079,"body":"small manufacturers, the owner builders, and that is"},{"startTime":538.079,"endTime":541.839,"body":"key. How do we address that? And that's very, very important to me and"},{"startTime":541.839,"endTime":545.655,"body":"to a lot of people that are involved. So when we last spoke, you were"},{"startTime":545.655,"endTime":549.495,"body":"deeply involved in in starting to develop these new global building"},{"startTime":549.495,"endTime":552.78,"body":"standards. I believe the committee had been approved."},{"startTime":553.48,"endTime":557.24,"body":"But can you can you update us on the progress you've made since"},{"startTime":557.24,"endTime":561.015,"body":"then? We actually have a subcommittee. We have a"},{"startTime":561.015,"endTime":564.695,"body":"subcommittee, not a committee. We did have a committee, but we"},{"startTime":564.695,"endTime":568.24,"body":"ended up getting a subcommittee, but we're under the the"},{"startTime":568.24,"endTime":572.02,"body":"Committee of the Performance of Building. And that committee has been around for 75"},{"startTime":572.08,"endTime":575.46,"body":"years, and they have all the expertise and every building"},{"startTime":575.714,"endTime":579.555,"body":"material that you can imagine that goes into a building. And what we're"},{"startTime":579.555,"endTime":583.394,"body":"doing is, it's none of us have done this before. It's brand new to"},{"startTime":583.394,"endTime":586.92,"body":"all of us. And we are gathering the engineers, we're gathering the"},{"startTime":586.92,"endTime":590.44,"body":"architects, we just spent $10,000 for"},{"startTime":590.44,"endTime":593.765,"body":"structural engineer, we raised the money for him, this incredible"},{"startTime":594.385,"endTime":597.765,"body":"architect to develop tables for the dead and live loads"},{"startTime":598.065,"endTime":601.82,"body":"for a chassis. And it's very important, different sizes."},{"startTime":602.92,"endTime":606.3,"body":"And we're very pleased with that. So we've been recruiting"},{"startTime":606.52,"endTime":610.105,"body":"the great stakeholders, the technical writers, we are in draft"},{"startTime":610.105,"endTime":613.865,"body":"mode. Once we have a draft, they will create the task groups"},{"startTime":613.865,"endTime":617.52,"body":"where everyone can come in and and say, I'd like to add this"},{"startTime":617.52,"endTime":621.28,"body":"or that doesn't work and have a conversation about, okay, this doesn't work for me,"},{"startTime":621.28,"endTime":624.66,"body":"or could you add this and get some consensus"},{"startTime":625.555,"endTime":629.335,"body":"before it goes to ballot. So we are developing standards"},{"startTime":629.475,"endTime":633.22,"body":"on tiny house on wheels. Mhmm. We"},{"startTime":633.22,"endTime":636.839,"body":"have a standard that is, micro good utilities,"},{"startTime":636.899,"endTime":640.36,"body":"how tiny houses could be cooked up, utilities"},{"startTime":640.66,"endTime":644.205,"body":"and a cottage development. We have a standard develop that's"},{"startTime":644.205,"endTime":647.505,"body":"under for tiny house communities. We have certification,"},{"startTime":647.965,"endTime":651.65,"body":"certification is so important. And also to keep it"},{"startTime":651.65,"endTime":655.33,"body":"affordable. We have got some great net technical writers that"},{"startTime":655.33,"endTime":658.964,"body":"are that are in the 3rd party industry. They're helping us with"},{"startTime":658.964,"endTime":662.805,"body":"that. Robin Butler with Noah, he's going to do a whole section on"},{"startTime":662.805,"endTime":666.485,"body":"remote view, you know, and certifying the owner builders,"},{"startTime":666.485,"endTime":670.12,"body":"it's very important that the owner builders find a way, you know, to have a"},{"startTime":670.12,"endTime":673.88,"body":"label on their tiny home. A couple of the standards I'm"},{"startTime":673.88,"endTime":677.035,"body":"very excited about, I think probably will maybe the first one that will come out"},{"startTime":677.035,"endTime":680.715,"body":"first is it's covering the all the"},{"startTime":680.715,"endTime":684.37,"body":"structural attachment. Yes. All of it from"},{"startTime":684.37,"endTime":688.21,"body":"the the walls, the presses, the roof, the rafters, and"},{"startTime":688.21,"endTime":691.595,"body":"how that is attached to the chassis. And the"},{"startTime":691.975,"endTime":695.335,"body":"floor systems, we're going to try to do like 4 or 5 different methods."},{"startTime":695.335,"endTime":699.175,"body":"We're talking to all the builders, because we don't want a builder to feel stuck."},{"startTime":699.175,"endTime":703.0,"body":"Oh, that's how I have to. We don't want that. We realized that a"},{"startTime":703.0,"endTime":706.44,"body":"lot of different builders build the floor system in a different"},{"startTime":706.44,"endTime":710.025,"body":"manner. And we're trying to acknowledge that. So we've created"},{"startTime":710.025,"endTime":713.785,"body":"figures, and we're talking to all the builder, the manufacturers, because sometimes"},{"startTime":713.785,"endTime":717.065,"body":"we have to go to them. Everyone's so busy, they don't have a lot of"},{"startTime":717.065,"endTime":720.7,"body":"time to participate. So we often just go to there, go to them and hey,"},{"startTime":720.7,"endTime":723.6,"body":"how do you do it, we want to make sure that we include your method"},{"startTime":723.9,"endTime":727.135,"body":"in the standard, we are going to address"},{"startTime":727.355,"endTime":731.115,"body":"chassis systems as well, to the level we'll"},{"startTime":731.115,"endTime":734.56,"body":"stop at the level and probably do commentary. That will include"},{"startTime":734.94,"endTime":738.7,"body":"NHTSA. NHTSA is the equivalent of NHTSA. That's the"},{"startTime":738.7,"endTime":742.185,"body":"road regulations for trailers. The"},{"startTime":742.185,"endTime":745.865,"body":"chassis Ethan the trailer part is considered a vehicle. So, in the US,"},{"startTime":745.865,"endTime":749.55,"body":"you have to build them to the Federal Motor Vehicle Standards. And"},{"startTime":749.55,"endTime":753.39,"body":"so we want to do commentary. Commentaries basically, you"},{"startTime":753.39,"endTime":757.145,"body":"know, with the put that as an appendix. So, commentary is discussion"},{"startTime":757.145,"endTime":760.985,"body":"basically, about the standard and some references to guide"},{"startTime":760.985,"endTime":764.585,"body":"people. Okay. If you're a trailer manufacturer, a great"},{"startTime":764.585,"endTime":768.139,"body":"organization to join is in NATM, which is the National American Trailer"},{"startTime":768.139,"endTime":771.74,"body":"Manufacturer. No. Yes. If you if you want to manufacture"},{"startTime":771.74,"endTime":775.325,"body":"trailers, great, great, great organization to"},{"startTime":775.465,"endTime":779.245,"body":"to join. Because they teach you how to get your, world manufacturer ID"},{"startTime":779.305,"endTime":782.905,"body":"number and to join, you know, join NHTSA and just follow them."},{"startTime":782.905,"endTime":786.56,"body":"Yeah, it's very, very important for builders to to to know"},{"startTime":786.56,"endTime":789.62,"body":"this path. And so we're gonna include Ethan. And Canada"},{"startTime":790.24,"endTime":794.065,"body":"has an equivalent. Australia has an equivalent. So we'll be including"},{"startTime":794.065,"endTime":797.665,"body":"that. And then we're also gonna create a"},{"startTime":797.665,"endTime":801.41,"body":"section for the anchoring systems, you know, at the minimum level,"},{"startTime":802.03,"endTime":805.79,"body":"and a foundation. So, why I love this standard is because it's kind of"},{"startTime":805.79,"endTime":808.745,"body":"the missing part that you could actually"},{"startTime":809.685,"endTime":813.445,"body":"build a tiny house to Appendix Q as well, and any"},{"startTime":813.445,"endTime":817.065,"body":"building codes in the world. So it's the missing it's"},{"startTime":817.48,"endTime":821.16,"body":"when the building officials want to see plans for tiny houses, what what they"},{"startTime":821.16,"endTime":824.68,"body":"always wanna know is how is it attached? How how is that"},{"startTime":824.68,"endTime":828.235,"body":"safely attached? Because when that tiny house on the wheels is driving down the"},{"startTime":828.235,"endTime":831.995,"body":"road, you're in hurricane winds. And there's methods"},{"startTime":831.995,"endTime":835.84,"body":"already in place. We don't have to reinvent the wheel here. The HUD code"},{"startTime":835.84,"endTime":839.62,"body":"addresses a lot of ways that some manufacturers"},{"startTime":839.76,"endTime":843.6,"body":"say manufactured home is safe. And so we're not reinventing the wheel."},{"startTime":843.6,"endTime":847.334,"body":"We're just gathering the information that's already that already exist."},{"startTime":848.035,"endTime":851.795,"body":"But one really amazing thing about a standard is, let's say,"},{"startTime":851.795,"endTime":855.53,"body":"there's not nothing that really can support. There's no code"},{"startTime":855.53,"endTime":859.05,"body":"or standard out there that says, hey, how to do something. We have"},{"startTime":859.05,"endTime":862.65,"body":"consensus on something we could actually have it approved in the"},{"startTime":862.65,"endTime":866.285,"body":"standard because we've it's a consensus document."},{"startTime":867.065,"endTime":870.605,"body":"I think, obviously, we have to if that's something that's"},{"startTime":871.39,"endTime":875.15,"body":"that could be used as something that didn't mean to like, if there"},{"startTime":875.15,"endTime":878.53,"body":"was something that wasn't safe, for instance, obviously, we're gonna have to address"},{"startTime":879.335,"endTime":883.015,"body":"safety, fire safety, structure safety with"},{"startTime":883.015,"endTime":886.695,"body":"codes and standards that already exist. I mean, a lot of people don't know this,"},{"startTime":886.695,"endTime":890.28,"body":"but the HUD code is 88 reference standards. So we have a lot to glean"},{"startTime":890.28,"endTime":894.04,"body":"from. And we obviously want to meet and exceed the HUD code,"},{"startTime":894.04,"endTime":897.875,"body":"what IRC references. So this can"},{"startTime":897.875,"endTime":901.555,"body":"be a standard that everyone respects and that they can use. And this is a"},{"startTime":901.555,"endTime":905.155,"body":"standard that also has the tables from the structure near strut the structural"},{"startTime":905.155,"endTime":908.74,"body":"engineer. So I think this. So once"},{"startTime":908.74,"endTime":912.58,"body":"those once those like, are you mentioned the the"},{"startTime":912.58,"endTime":916.325,"body":"structural engineer creating the tables for live load is that is"},{"startTime":916.325,"endTime":920.165,"body":"that available now for just somebody who wants to kind of use"},{"startTime":920.165,"endTime":923.925,"body":"that in their build? Or, or will that be available at some point for"},{"startTime":923.925,"endTime":927.66,"body":"you know, an individual person who wants to build? I'll tell you a"},{"startTime":927.66,"endTime":931.339,"body":"good I can't see it's going to be copyrighted. It's in a draft form."},{"startTime":931.339,"endTime":935.105,"body":"Like like I said, we spent $10,000 on it. And so"},{"startTime":935.105,"endTime":938.945,"body":"once it's goes to the task group, and it's uploaded"},{"startTime":938.945,"endTime":942.62,"body":"into the ASTM, right, It is it's not it's considered"},{"startTime":942.68,"endTime":946.52,"body":"copyrighted by ASTM. So that"},{"startTime":946.52,"endTime":950.06,"body":"is something that will be available through ASTM and, obviously,"},{"startTime":951.145,"endTime":954.505,"body":"but what you could do is he based it on"},{"startTime":954.505,"endTime":957.085,"body":"the 2022 ASCE"},{"startTime":958.72,"endTime":962.4,"body":"SEI standard, you know, that's that's the loads"},{"startTime":962.4,"endTime":966.16,"body":"for structural building. So that's he based on that. So that"},{"startTime":966.16,"endTime":969.685,"body":"and there's also something that's free called the hazard tool."},{"startTime":970.465,"endTime":974.145,"body":"It's free. Go go to it's called the hazard tool. And you can"},{"startTime":974.145,"endTime":977.81,"body":"put in your address and learn all the all the requirements for all your"},{"startTime":977.81,"endTime":981.49,"body":"loads right there. So it's pretty, pretty amazing tool. So there's a"},{"startTime":981.49,"endTime":984.745,"body":"lot of free things out there. And we're going to be doing a lot of"},{"startTime":984.745,"endTime":988.285,"body":"commentary on that in the standard as well to help support people."},{"startTime":989.465,"endTime":992.845,"body":"I think that is one of the most important things we're seeing is"},{"startTime":993.55,"endTime":997.07,"body":"not enough axles on tiny houses that this whole base"},{"startTime":997.07,"endTime":1000.565,"body":"standards based on what we've seen in the"},{"startTime":1000.565,"endTime":1003.925,"body":"industry that needs further regulation, further quality"},{"startTime":1003.925,"endTime":1007.685,"body":"control. For instance, the floor system, there's people that build tiny houses,"},{"startTime":1007.685,"endTime":1011.49,"body":"and they end up getting mold. Well, there's methods to prevent that"},{"startTime":1011.95,"endTime":1015.79,"body":"in the standard, and we're addressing that with our I'm very excited because the"},{"startTime":1015.79,"endTime":1019.385,"body":"standard that we're working on, I've recruited Simpson Ties and everyone"},{"startTime":1019.385,"endTime":1023.065,"body":"everyone builds Simpson and Simpson Ties is gonna help us with that and great"},{"startTime":1023.065,"endTime":1026.34,"body":"company called Mytek. They both have they have amazing"},{"startTime":1026.56,"endTime":1030.4,"body":"expertise. Another company I'm really excited about is"},{"startTime":1030.4,"endTime":1033.795,"body":"the foundation system called Central Piers. And they"},{"startTime":1033.795,"endTime":1037.395,"body":"have this, they're also helping us. And it's it is a"},{"startTime":1037.395,"endTime":1041.075,"body":"it's a foundation system. It's very simple. And it's their steel"},{"startTime":1041.075,"endTime":1044.63,"body":"piers that you put on a cement block,"},{"startTime":1045.569,"endTime":1049.169,"body":"precast concrete block, they have 3"},{"startTime":1049.169,"endTime":1053.005,"body":"drilled holes. Okay. And this is like in all the states."},{"startTime":1053.065,"endTime":1056.445,"body":"And so their technical people are gonna help us, which I'm very excited."},{"startTime":1057.065,"endTime":1060.659,"body":"Maybe give us some diagrams. That would be the starting like minimum"},{"startTime":1060.659,"endTime":1064.019,"body":"level for foundation. Because one thing I think we're doing different too,"},{"startTime":1064.019,"endTime":1067.785,"body":"is we're going to be addressing foundations that"},{"startTime":1067.865,"endTime":1071.305,"body":"for permanent homes and for temporary. So why this is important, I"},{"startTime":1071.305,"endTime":1075.065,"body":"feel to deal with foundations for temporary. The state of"},{"startTime":1075.065,"endTime":1078.9,"body":"Colorado, I think, as you know, they have a new rulemaking for tiny homes"},{"startTime":1078.9,"endTime":1082.44,"body":"on a chassis. And one of the requirements is a foundation."},{"startTime":1083.14,"endTime":1086.36,"body":"And they do allow, you know, a temporary or permanent foundation."},{"startTime":1086.875,"endTime":1090.715,"body":"And it's very exciting and hooked up to utilities. And believe it or"},{"startTime":1090.715,"endTime":1093.375,"body":"not, they're even there is going to be tax,"},{"startTime":1094.725,"endTime":1098.2,"body":"to that they have to go through a process as real property."},{"startTime":1098.659,"endTime":1102.5,"body":"Usually any kind of movable, it can be because they have to go through"},{"startTime":1102.5,"endTime":1105.625,"body":"like I said, they have to go through the tax process. But usually, any kind"},{"startTime":1105.625,"endTime":1109.465,"body":"of chattel or movable unit is not ever considered real property. It's"},{"startTime":1109.465,"endTime":1112.905,"body":"considered personal property. So I think we're gonna see a lot more"},{"startTime":1112.905,"endTime":1116.679,"body":"requirements of simple"},{"startTime":1116.679,"endTime":1120.279,"body":"foundations for tiny houses. I think something also"},{"startTime":1120.44,"endTime":1123.875,"body":"like, the country can decide itself. Is this a"},{"startTime":1123.875,"endTime":1126.855,"body":"building, or is this going to be a vehicular"},{"startTime":1126.995,"endTime":1130.73,"body":"unit. Which will have different regulations. If"},{"startTime":1130.73,"endTime":1134.41,"body":"it's just, you know, like, for instance, a vehicular unit would have a title and"},{"startTime":1134.41,"endTime":1138.184,"body":"a VIN number, where if it was a building, it would it would have"},{"startTime":1138.184,"endTime":1141.865,"body":"a perhaps a insignia with a serial number from the 3rd"},{"startTime":1141.865,"endTime":1145.705,"body":"party. So it's we're trying to make it open ended, we're trying to"},{"startTime":1145.705,"endTime":1149.399,"body":"address the fact that some people might wanna live in Arizona half the year"},{"startTime":1149.779,"endTime":1153.595,"body":"and half the year in Washington state, for instance. And so they"},{"startTime":1153.755,"endTime":1157.294,"body":"they wanna travel, and they wanna be able to have it permanent."},{"startTime":1157.914,"endTime":1161.65,"body":"I do think that we're gonna see a lot more acceptance if"},{"startTime":1161.65,"endTime":1165.35,"body":"we start getting away from the RV standards and"},{"startTime":1165.809,"endTime":1169.575,"body":"building them to the building codes instead of just"},{"startTime":1169.575,"endTime":1173.255,"body":"the RV standards. Though, I do feel, and I want to"},{"startTime":1173.255,"endTime":1176.92,"body":"suggest to anybody that's an advocate, to advocate for all"},{"startTime":1176.92,"endTime":1180.6,"body":"paths of acceptance because, like, for instance, a"},{"startTime":1180.6,"endTime":1184.12,"body":"perfect example, the state of Colorado has been rule making for"},{"startTime":1184.12,"endTime":1187.914,"body":"tiny houses on wheels, but not one"},{"startTime":1187.914,"endTime":1191.674,"body":"manufacturer signed up for the program, not one."},{"startTime":1191.674,"endTime":1194.96,"body":"And it went into effect July 1st 2023,"},{"startTime":1196.14,"endTime":1199.98,"body":"I believe. And and so there was a dilemma in this one city in"},{"startTime":1199.98,"endTime":1203.695,"body":"in Bayfield, Colorado. And so there was"},{"startTime":1203.695,"endTime":1207.215,"body":"a community that was right in the middle of this issue, like, okay. So they"},{"startTime":1207.215,"endTime":1211.03,"body":"have a PUD plan development and for"},{"startTime":1211.03,"endTime":1214.87,"body":"tiny home village, and they were trying to get compliant with the state."},{"startTime":1214.87,"endTime":1217.945,"body":"But how can you get compliant when you already have a PUD that says says"},{"startTime":1217.945,"endTime":1221.465,"body":"one thing. So, it makes very excited about the solution that they"},{"startTime":1221.465,"endTime":1225.245,"body":"created there. They can either build to the state plan,"},{"startTime":1226.27,"endTime":1229.65,"body":"or they allow a tiny home as a recreational vehicle,"},{"startTime":1230.03,"endTime":1233.802,"body":"but they want you to address this. They have a snow load of 51 pounds."},{"startTime":1233.803,"endTime":1237.415,"body":"You have to have 3rd party certification and a electrical inspection and"},{"startTime":1238.915,"endTime":1242.65,"body":"registration with your trailer, and get a CO from"},{"startTime":1242.65,"endTime":1246.33,"body":"the, city, and you're good to go permanently. And that"},{"startTime":1246.33,"endTime":1249.905,"body":"county, La Plata County, also has 2 methods for tiny"},{"startTime":1249.905,"endTime":1253.585,"body":"houses. With the RV route, if you're there past 90"},{"startTime":1253.585,"endTime":1256.899,"body":"days, you have to follow the land use code or,"},{"startTime":1257.26,"endTime":1260.86,"body":"built to appendix Q and IRC. So I I think it's very"},{"startTime":1260.86,"endTime":1264.22,"body":"important for all of us not to include or to leave"},{"startTime":1264.22,"endTime":1267.855,"body":"out acceptable methods. There is"},{"startTime":1268.475,"endTime":1272.315,"body":"a city in Idaho that adopted the NOAA"},{"startTime":1272.315,"endTime":1276.09,"body":"ANSI plus standard. And they they did what they basically"},{"startTime":1276.09,"endTime":1279.769,"body":"did was they added the, what needed to be addressed for their"},{"startTime":1279.769,"endTime":1283.505,"body":"climate. Mhmm. I think, you know, like ICC right now, they're"},{"startTime":1283.505,"endTime":1287.044,"body":"developing standards that will be modular. That's one method."},{"startTime":1287.265,"endTime":1291.09,"body":"I think at ASTM, I think that how it would turn out, I can't speak"},{"startTime":1291.09,"endTime":1294.77,"body":"for all of us, because how it will turn out will be developed"},{"startTime":1294.77,"endTime":1298.425,"body":"by all of us and agreed upon. But I I see that it could be"},{"startTime":1298.425,"endTime":1302.185,"body":"a new classification of housing, something brand new, not a"},{"startTime":1302.185,"endTime":1305.165,"body":"modular, not a manufactured home, not an RV."},{"startTime":1305.929,"endTime":1309.309,"body":"There's a HUD approved document that I just ran into"},{"startTime":1309.77,"endTime":1313.61,"body":"that was HUD approved it, but they didn't write it. And what why I'm"},{"startTime":1313.61,"endTime":1316.775,"body":"excited about it is it described"},{"startTime":1317.475,"endTime":1321.315,"body":"tiny houses separate from modular, separate from manufactured homes,"},{"startTime":1321.315,"endTime":1325.08,"body":"separate from RVs, separate from the old, mobile home"},{"startTime":1325.08,"endTime":1328.84,"body":"definition. And why that's exciting to me and they they said it was 400"},{"startTime":1328.84,"endTime":1332.22,"body":"square feet or less, either on wheels or on foundation."},{"startTime":1332.715,"endTime":1336.155,"body":"But they did say that there's no universal acceptable, you know,"},{"startTime":1336.155,"endTime":1339.835,"body":"one one definition for it. And so and"},{"startTime":1339.835,"endTime":1343.34,"body":"why the document was created was to guide"},{"startTime":1343.34,"endTime":1346.88,"body":"housing counselors to know the difference between housing."},{"startTime":1347.26,"endTime":1350.86,"body":"So when I saw that, I was very excited because, to me, it just gives"},{"startTime":1350.86,"endTime":1354.665,"body":"us an opportunity to create something new. Because if you think about it, I"},{"startTime":1354.665,"endTime":1358.424,"body":"mean, modular manufactured homes, they've got established industries"},{"startTime":1358.424,"endTime":1362.21,"body":"for decades. So you have to follow the"},{"startTime":1362.21,"endTime":1366.05,"body":"laws in the states. Right? Yeah. Why is it why is"},{"startTime":1366.05,"endTime":1369.715,"body":"it important to you that that the tiny home"},{"startTime":1369.935,"endTime":1373.615,"body":"standards are separate from modular? I don't mind. I don't"},{"startTime":1373.615,"endTime":1377.215,"body":"mind. I get this because because okay, not everyone has a"},{"startTime":1377.215,"endTime":1380.81,"body":"different level of how they build. Some builders are"},{"startTime":1380.81,"endTime":1384.03,"body":"small. They might build 1 to 3 to 6 a year."},{"startTime":1384.49,"endTime":1388.055,"body":"Some build to scale. They have a factory, and they build 15 at a"},{"startTime":1388.055,"endTime":1391.815,"body":"time. So we we have all these different levels of how"},{"startTime":1391.815,"endTime":1395.36,"body":"you build. Yeah. If you look at how modular"},{"startTime":1395.36,"endTime":1399.2,"body":"constructed, you have to have your factory certified 100%. What does"},{"startTime":1399.2,"endTime":1402.885,"body":"that mean? Well, that means that you have to have that"},{"startTime":1402.885,"endTime":1406.585,"body":"entire sometimes the first or the second one approved,"},{"startTime":1406.804,"endTime":1410.65,"body":"and that could be costly. So so I'm"},{"startTime":1410.65,"endTime":1414.11,"body":"not against model disruption. I'm for every single"},{"startTime":1414.65,"endTime":1418.17,"body":"method that that fits the manufacturer. Got it."},{"startTime":1418.17,"endTime":1421.875,"body":"Because as you can, as you can imagine, there's all kinds of different levels"},{"startTime":1421.875,"endTime":1425.555,"body":"of there's huge companies involved. There's huge"},{"startTime":1425.555,"endTime":1428.95,"body":"companies and small companies. I really wanna protect"},{"startTime":1430.53,"endTime":1433.97,"body":"the the heart, the heart of the industry to me are small"},{"startTime":1433.97,"endTime":1437.795,"body":"manufacturers and owner builders. Yeah. But what I'm also"},{"startTime":1437.795,"endTime":1441.415,"body":"seeing, even though I'm a part of bringing this to more of a regulated"},{"startTime":1441.555,"endTime":1444.37,"body":"industry, I still want to embrace"},{"startTime":1445.07,"endTime":1448.03,"body":"all methods of how we get there"},{"startTime":1448.391,"endTime":1452.095,"body":"legally. And and I support all methods. Yeah."},{"startTime":1452.255,"endTime":1455.315,"body":"We will never gonna see tiny houses on wheels"},{"startTime":1456.015,"endTime":1459.59,"body":"built to RV standards go away. I don't think that's always"},{"startTime":1459.59,"endTime":1462.95,"body":"going to be a given. And I really feel like I still wanna support that"},{"startTime":1462.95,"endTime":1466.79,"body":"because all the jurisdictions really have to do is say, okay, let's"},{"startTime":1466.87,"endTime":1470.635,"body":"we'll accept that it's built to the RV standards, but address their climate issues,"},{"startTime":1471.335,"endTime":1474.635,"body":"address their trust issues that they have their seismic issues."},{"startTime":1474.934,"endTime":1478.315,"body":"And it's like I was so pleased with the Bayfield, Colorado"},{"startTime":1478.7,"endTime":1481.9,"body":"permit, I have to show it to you. Ethan, I think you'd be incredibly impressed"},{"startTime":1481.9,"endTime":1484.62,"body":"by because it's simpler than I even thought it was going to be. And this"},{"startTime":1484.62,"endTime":1488.405,"body":"was months months of discussion. In fact, they were trying to get"},{"startTime":1488.805,"endTime":1492.645,"body":"someone to recertify a certified company, a company that was already"},{"startTime":1492.645,"endTime":1496.245,"body":"certified and not give them a CO. And it was kind of all the"},{"startTime":1496.245,"endTime":1499.429,"body":"wrong direction of how to get compliant with the state. And, you know, we we"},{"startTime":1499.429,"endTime":1502.23,"body":"kind of kept telling them, you know, how can you get compliant with the state"},{"startTime":1502.23,"endTime":1505.755,"body":"with no manufacturer signed up for it? So"},{"startTime":1505.975,"endTime":1509.655,"body":"it's very important that we really, really keep in mind, the different"},{"startTime":1509.655,"endTime":1513.35,"body":"levels and the different financial capabilities that"},{"startTime":1513.35,"endTime":1517.13,"body":"these manufacturers have. And I wanna support our our small manufacturers."},{"startTime":1517.83,"endTime":1521.545,"body":"Absolutely not against, modular construction. Right. But not"},{"startTime":1521.545,"endTime":1525.165,"body":"everybody can attain. Not everybody has a factory. Right? Right. Right."},{"startTime":1525.465,"endTime":1529.225,"body":"How does how do the ASTM standards or how would they"},{"startTime":1529.225,"endTime":1532.93,"body":"help address affordability? Because that's something that you've mentioned a couple"},{"startTime":1532.93,"endTime":1536.77,"body":"times too. Well, I think certification needs to"},{"startTime":1536.77,"endTime":1540.565,"body":"be at a certain level. I actually had a standard that reinstated"},{"startTime":1541.345,"endTime":1545.044,"body":"called ASTM E 541 a few years ago."},{"startTime":1545.265,"endTime":1548.645,"body":"It's a standard that is it's for the compliance"},{"startTime":1549.2,"endTime":1552.56,"body":"assurance agencies are actually third parties that"},{"startTime":1552.56,"endTime":1556.4,"body":"certify a manufacturer type building. HUD has"},{"startTime":1556.4,"endTime":1559.785,"body":"referenced it for 40 years. California"},{"startTime":1559.785,"endTime":1563.245,"body":"ACD references that there's a 10 more states that reference it including"},{"startTime":1563.625,"endTime":1566.205,"body":"Illinois, Virginia, Georgia,"},{"startTime":1568.09,"endTime":1571.93,"body":"Minnesota, North Dakota, New Jersey, Rhode Island. And it's"},{"startTime":1571.93,"endTime":1575.77,"body":"very important why is because okay, if there's more requirements for"},{"startTime":1575.77,"endTime":1579.184,"body":"third parties, and they have to spend a lot of money for accreditation and get"},{"startTime":1579.184,"endTime":1582.625,"body":"audited and accredited, that could be another $10 to"},{"startTime":1582.625,"endTime":1586.33,"body":"$15,000 a year. Now that cost gets passed down"},{"startTime":1586.33,"endTime":1590.17,"body":"to the manufacturer, and that gets passed down to housing. And so"},{"startTime":1590.17,"endTime":1593.835,"body":"that is I'm at the forefront of the keeping this"},{"startTime":1593.835,"endTime":1597.515,"body":"affordable. And so the standard, the certification standard that we're"},{"startTime":1597.515,"endTime":1600.875,"body":"working on, ASTM will start at the level of ASTM E"},{"startTime":1600.875,"endTime":1604.38,"body":"541, which is it's it's it's pretty exciting standard. I mean, the"},{"startTime":1604.38,"endTime":1607.9,"body":"standard, it's it's got everything in it. When I had it"},{"startTime":1607.9,"endTime":1611.315,"body":"reinstated, I talked to John Westfall at"},{"startTime":1611.315,"endTime":1614.415,"body":"California ACT, and he said, Janet, it's got everything in it that you need"},{"startTime":1614.415,"endTime":1618.01,"body":"so, but there's a push to me that I"},{"startTime":1618.01,"endTime":1621.71,"body":"see, at the same time that we really need to address affordability,"},{"startTime":1621.85,"endTime":1625.495,"body":"that there's more more requirements and more requirements that"},{"startTime":1625.495,"endTime":1628.635,"body":"aren't necessary when ASTM E 541 already works."},{"startTime":1629.174,"endTime":1631.995,"body":"Yeah. And the other thing is very interesting"},{"startTime":1632.59,"endTime":1636.429,"body":"is ASTM E 541 is a statutory requirement in"},{"startTime":1636.429,"endTime":1640.27,"body":"many states. So it's in state law, but it's accepted. So, it"},{"startTime":1640.27,"endTime":1643.825,"body":"was mistakenly withdrawn. And because the"},{"startTime":1643.825,"endTime":1647.185,"body":"experts of that committee weren't there anymore, and I happened to notice it. And at"},{"startTime":1647.185,"endTime":1650.32,"body":"the same time, I went to ASTM, I said that the standard has got to"},{"startTime":1650.32,"endTime":1654.0,"body":"be reinstated. And so I gathered all the the great third"},{"startTime":1654.0,"endTime":1657.745,"body":"parties of the industry, and we reinstated it. And I'm very excited"},{"startTime":1657.745,"endTime":1661.285,"body":"because, like, Virginia is the the first state that's adopted"},{"startTime":1661.585,"endTime":1665.43,"body":"the new ICC standard 1205 and 1200. Yeah."},{"startTime":1665.43,"endTime":1669.13,"body":"But the great news is, is they still accept the ASTM"},{"startTime":1669.27,"endTime":1673.085,"body":"E 541 accreditation. And in fact, it"},{"startTime":1673.085,"endTime":1676.465,"body":"supersedes any adopted codes and standards because it's in state regulation."},{"startTime":1676.925,"endTime":1680.705,"body":"So that is a great win for affordability in tiny houses."},{"startTime":1680.9,"endTime":1684.42,"body":"Nice. And once again, like, you're going to see if if modular"},{"startTime":1684.42,"endTime":1688.179,"body":"construction often like the state programs, they require you"},{"startTime":1688.179,"endTime":1691.935,"body":"have a factory. I mean, and a lot of strict not all states"},{"startTime":1691.995,"endTime":1695.455,"body":"are strict like that. Not all states will,"},{"startTime":1695.915,"endTime":1699.69,"body":"you know, micromanage the type of factory that you build in, but"},{"startTime":1699.69,"endTime":1702.649,"body":"a lot of them do. And to me, of course, you're gonna have to have"},{"startTime":1702.649,"endTime":1706.409,"body":"that factory certified. Yeah. And so that, to me is"},{"startTime":1706.409,"endTime":1710.165,"body":"a cost. Now, believe it or not, it's harder to get a HUD factory"},{"startTime":1710.865,"endTime":1714.325,"body":"certified. You can also, you know, build to the manufacturer's home center. I'm 100%"},{"startTime":1714.465,"endTime":1718.17,"body":"for every single path there is, that addresses"},{"startTime":1718.39,"endTime":1722.15,"body":"your need, your financial capabilities, and a way for us"},{"startTime":1722.15,"endTime":1725.27,"body":"all to get housing. And I think it's very important that we all work together"},{"startTime":1725.27,"endTime":1728.205,"body":"as an industry, And we're inclusive of all methods."},{"startTime":1729.705,"endTime":1733.164,"body":"Yeah. So what's I mean, this is gonna sound like a cynical question that"},{"startTime":1733.44,"endTime":1736.64,"body":"but I just popped in my head and I wanted to ask it, which is,"},{"startTime":1736.64,"endTime":1740.4,"body":"you know, what's to stop like, the manufacturers who are"},{"startTime":1740.4,"endTime":1744.005,"body":"who are getting involved in this process, from basically just"},{"startTime":1744.305,"endTime":1748.145,"body":"helping to create standards that make sure that people use have to use their"},{"startTime":1748.145,"endTime":1751.585,"body":"products? Well, first of all, you cannot use product"},{"startTime":1751.585,"endTime":1755.25,"body":"names in a standard. Interesting."},{"startTime":1755.25,"endTime":1758.61,"body":"Okay. I mean, recently I mentioned that. Yeah, you cannot you can't say, Oh, you"},{"startTime":1758.61,"endTime":1762.445,"body":"must use some Like central peers can't say like, Oh, well, the only safe"},{"startTime":1762.445,"endTime":1766.125,"body":"way to, you know, attach your tiny house to the ground is with"},{"startTime":1766.125,"endTime":1769.67,"body":"Central Piers. No, you're not. Now, cannot."},{"startTime":1769.73,"endTime":1773.17,"body":"But I'm excited about his product because okay, it means his his"},{"startTime":1773.17,"endTime":1776.77,"body":"foundation system will be okay, like $1600 as"},{"startTime":1776.77,"endTime":1780.295,"body":"opposed to $5000 Well, I think for an owner,"},{"startTime":1780.675,"endTime":1784.515,"body":"that is efficient savings. And as I mentioned Would those"},{"startTime":1784.515,"endTime":1788.26,"body":"work would those work for a tiny house on a trailer? They"},{"startTime":1788.26,"endTime":1791.56,"body":"will they would not be modular doesn't you allow augers"},{"startTime":1792.155,"endTime":1795.755,"body":"Usually But but manufactured homes do. But"},{"startTime":1795.755,"endTime":1799.595,"body":"because I feel like we're creating a brand new classification of housing that's not tied"},{"startTime":1799.595,"endTime":1803.24,"body":"to modular, not tied to manufactured homes."},{"startTime":1803.3,"endTime":1806.04,"body":"I hope that this is going to be acceptable. I mean, the RV"},{"startTime":1807.46,"endTime":1811.164,"body":"foundations are allowed in the Colorado rulemaking. You can have there's like 3"},{"startTime":1811.164,"endTime":1814.845,"body":"different types. So and I really appreciate that, that they're"},{"startTime":1814.845,"endTime":1818.524,"body":"offering more than just one method. I think that's gonna help us a great deal"},{"startTime":1818.524,"endTime":1822.269,"body":"to have more than one method. So, no, we cannot even though I"},{"startTime":1822.269,"endTime":1826.029,"body":"mentioned Simpson Ties, only reason I mentioned them is I think every single builder uses"},{"startTime":1826.029,"endTime":1829.845,"body":"Simpson Ties. Right? But we can't say you must use Simpson"},{"startTime":1829.845,"endTime":1833.684,"body":"ties. No, not at all. You're not allowed to mention any kind of brands"},{"startTime":1833.684,"endTime":1837.065,"body":"in the actual standard itself. Okay. Okay."},{"startTime":1837.429,"endTime":1841.269,"body":"This is the material that you use, basically. Got it. Got"},{"startTime":1841.269,"endTime":1845.049,"body":"it. Now we are allowed to include, for instance,"},{"startTime":1845.885,"endTime":1849.405,"body":"commentary that would include a reference to perhaps Simpson"},{"startTime":1849.405,"endTime":1853.165,"body":"ties a great white paper that they wrote because, I mean, I'm just excited about"},{"startTime":1853.165,"endTime":1856.75,"body":"their expertise. In fact, they're gonna go visit one of our"},{"startTime":1856.75,"endTime":1860.51,"body":"builders in Texas to see how they do it. You know? So"},{"startTime":1860.91,"endTime":1864.605,"body":"no. No nobody this this is the beauty of ASTM. Okay. We have"},{"startTime":1864.605,"endTime":1868.065,"body":"a 150 members. Everyone has a vote,"},{"startTime":1868.445,"endTime":1872.205,"body":"but let's say 5 people from one company came in. They"},{"startTime":1872.205,"endTime":1875.929,"body":"had one voting interest. And they cannot"},{"startTime":1876.07,"endTime":1879.83,"body":"they cannot come in and dominate. That's the beauty. That's what I really"},{"startTime":1879.83,"endTime":1882.89,"body":"appreciate, ASTM. No one can come in and dominate."},{"startTime":1884.205,"endTime":1887.405,"body":"This is how it has to be and you have to use my product. Right."},{"startTime":1887.405,"endTime":1891.184,"body":"Right. That's absolutely true. Yeah. So for you know,"},{"startTime":1891.485,"endTime":1895.22,"body":"I'm, I have the sense that the majority of my listeners are individuals"},{"startTime":1895.44,"endTime":1899.12,"body":"who are either looking to buy a"},{"startTime":1899.12,"endTime":1902.755,"body":"tiny house at some point, or maybe they're considering building their own tiny house, but"},{"startTime":1902.755,"endTime":1906.135,"body":"they're they're individuals, they're not companies. You know, what?"},{"startTime":1907.155,"endTime":1910.96,"body":"What is your hope for people listening to this interview who"},{"startTime":1910.96,"endTime":1914.66,"body":"are kind of individuals who aren't necessarily experts in tiny homes"},{"startTime":1914.8,"endTime":1918.595,"body":"aren't going to necessarily join the committee? You know, what's your hope for"},{"startTime":1918.595,"endTime":1922.355,"body":"for those listeners from from this conversation? You know, they can also, you know,"},{"startTime":1922.355,"endTime":1925.555,"body":"reach out and have a conversation with us, you know, and and tell us their"},{"startTime":1925.555,"endTime":1929.2,"body":"concerns. Because one thing I'm extremely concerned about that I'd like to mention is"},{"startTime":1930.06,"endTime":1933.58,"body":"all the fraud that's on Facebook right now with the fake builders Yeah."},{"startTime":1933.82,"endTime":1937.575,"body":"Using other people's photos. And I want to"},{"startTime":1937.575,"endTime":1941.035,"body":"tell the listeners to if you see a rent to own run,"},{"startTime":1941.415,"endTime":1944.635,"body":"and we are seeing and do not send a wire transfer"},{"startTime":1944.86,"endTime":1948.62,"body":"to anybody. Yeah. A lot of the people come to me that have been"},{"startTime":1948.62,"endTime":1952.059,"body":"ripped off, and they, and people one"},{"startTime":1952.059,"endTime":1955.885,"body":"important way to find out that is this a legitimate builder? Is you"},{"startTime":1955.885,"endTime":1959.645,"body":"do an image you save the image. You go to"},{"startTime":1959.645,"endTime":1963.059,"body":"the the, camera icon with Google, and you find the"},{"startTime":1963.059,"endTime":1966.74,"body":"original source, and you'll find out where that picture came from. Yeah. What we're"},{"startTime":1966.74,"endTime":1969.54,"body":"what we're seeing I know the builders like my heart because, I mean, I know"},{"startTime":1969.54,"endTime":1973.254,"body":"the they're I know their their looks. Right? There's builders"},{"startTime":1973.254,"endTime":1976.615,"body":"out there that are they're fake builders. They're not even builders, and they're not even"},{"startTime":1976.615,"endTime":1980.12,"body":"building anything. They don't even have a factory. There's pretending that there's something. It is"},{"startTime":1980.12,"endTime":1983.64,"body":"it is so bad. I'm sure you've seen it, Ethan. But it's taking over"},{"startTime":1983.64,"endTime":1987.4,"body":"Facebook right now. There's the groups are the ad the scammers are"},{"startTime":1987.4,"endTime":1991.125,"body":"the admins. They're starting this group, especially if you see okay, tiny"},{"startTime":1991.125,"endTime":1994.345,"body":"houses under $30,000 tiny houses under $25,000"},{"startTime":1995.525,"endTime":1999.13,"body":"Yep. So I would say for a tiny"},{"startTime":1999.13,"endTime":2002.83,"body":"house person, once they want to have a tiny house, verify,"},{"startTime":2002.97,"endTime":2006.055,"body":"verify, verify, verify. And"},{"startTime":2006.595,"endTime":2010.375,"body":"there's so many pioneers in this industry that have been around tried and true."},{"startTime":2011.235,"endTime":2013.85,"body":"And don't be fooled by websites either."},{"startTime":2014.809,"endTime":2018.65,"body":"Unfortunately, they are cloning the websites as well. Wow. This one,"},{"startTime":2018.65,"endTime":2022.424,"body":"this one scammer is actually trying to rent the"},{"startTime":2022.424,"endTime":2026.125,"body":"first tiny house Wind River Wind River Belt and for $1500,"},{"startTime":2026.585,"endTime":2029.884,"body":"and it was sold how many years ago? You know, and"},{"startTime":2030.37,"endTime":2034.07,"body":"they don't even stop doing you can it is terrible out there. So"},{"startTime":2034.13,"endTime":2037.75,"body":"wow, I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath before they buy anything."},{"startTime":2037.89,"endTime":2041.615,"body":"It's a buyer's market right now. Is it? It really"},{"startTime":2041.615,"endTime":2044.014,"body":"is. I mean, I don't know if you know this or not. But last year"},{"startTime":2044.014,"endTime":2047.855,"body":"was really tough. You know, because when it when COVID was"},{"startTime":2047.855,"endTime":2051.5,"body":"around, Yeah, last I knew that I last I knew the demand"},{"startTime":2051.5,"endTime":2055.02,"body":"was just off the charts for tiny houses and you you know, you couldn't get"},{"startTime":2055.02,"endTime":2058.864,"body":"one. It's okay. That was during COVID. Oh. But what happened is"},{"startTime":2058.864,"endTime":2062.545,"body":"when inflation went sky high, and bank one"},{"startTime":2062.545,"endTime":2066.1,"body":"bank we had that Liberty Bank, they went from a 20% down down"},{"startTime":2066.1,"endTime":2069.94,"body":"payment to a 40% down. And then the builders"},{"startTime":2069.94,"endTime":2072.92,"body":"are dealing with material costs that's gone sky high."},{"startTime":2074.105,"endTime":2077.704,"body":"And so, last year, or a lot of orders came to a"},{"startTime":2077.704,"endTime":2081.545,"body":"screeching halt. Wow. And in certain and because it was kinda but now"},{"startTime":2081.545,"endTime":2084.569,"body":"I'm seeing now I'm seeing a new trend."},{"startTime":2085.269,"endTime":2088.389,"body":"Okay. I think they see this as a new norm, and they're starting to buy"},{"startTime":2088.389,"endTime":2092.034,"body":"again. It but there was some manufacturer, unfortunately, that"},{"startTime":2092.034,"endTime":2095.875,"body":"closed their factories and went to site build because, you know, they stopped no"},{"startTime":2095.875,"endTime":2099.67,"body":"matter what they did. And if if you notice too, Ethan, the prices have"},{"startTime":2099.67,"endTime":2103.51,"body":"increased, increased, increased, increased, increased. And of course, if"},{"startTime":2103.51,"endTime":2107.065,"body":"you if you if you look at that increase and you balance it with"},{"startTime":2107.145,"endTime":2110.905,"body":"those cheap ones that the scammers are selling, it looks very balanced. But"},{"startTime":2110.905,"endTime":2113.724,"body":"because, I mean, how many years ago you could $50,000"},{"startTime":2114.86,"endTime":2118.3,"body":"was was high for a tiny house, and now we're talking we're we're we're at"},{"startTime":2118.3,"endTime":2122.06,"body":"120, 150, 2, you know, 200. You know? What"},{"startTime":2122.06,"endTime":2125.775,"body":"what how can the consumer do that? They're you know? So I'm hoping that"},{"startTime":2125.775,"endTime":2129.455,"body":"we'll see a trend to smaller ones, but even the manufacturer that did smaller ones"},{"startTime":2129.455,"endTime":2132.734,"body":"were having trouble. But like I said, I feel like there's a trend right now"},{"startTime":2132.734,"endTime":2135.78,"body":"where with it, this is a new norm. Okay. they know the interest rates are"},{"startTime":2135.78,"endTime":2138.98,"body":"high. And, you know, they're it's kinda like when we go to the grocery store"},{"startTime":2138.98,"endTime":2142.714,"body":"right now. Right? Okay. So meat's $5 more, and you deal"},{"startTime":2142.714,"endTime":2146.515,"body":"with it, and you just do it anyway. But, I think the"},{"startTime":2146.515,"endTime":2150.295,"body":"consumer that is wanting to buy a tiny house, slow down,"},{"startTime":2150.515,"endTime":2154.26,"body":"and really protect yourself, really know who your builder"},{"startTime":2154.26,"endTime":2158.1,"body":"is. Ask others. Yep. Don't just"},{"startTime":2158.1,"endTime":2161.54,"body":"because there's no nothing on Better Business Bureau means that means"},{"startTime":2161.54,"endTime":2165.335,"body":"nothing. Got it. Just because there's nothing on yelp. That means nothing. You want to"},{"startTime":2165.335,"endTime":2168.775,"body":"you want to you want to you want somebody and oh, and if you are"},{"startTime":2168.775,"endTime":2172.41,"body":"on Facebook and someone says DM me, a"},{"startTime":2172.41,"endTime":2176.25,"body":"true builder will say this is my website. Yeah. This is my"},{"startTime":2176.25,"endTime":2180.09,"body":"building facility. And you can come see me. This is all this"},{"startTime":2180.09,"endTime":2183.755,"body":"can be verified and verify, verify, verify. And like I"},{"startTime":2183.755,"endTime":2187.595,"body":"said, do not send a wire transfer. They are not protected. Got"},{"startTime":2187.595,"endTime":2191.319,"body":"it. I know someone who sent a scammer $10,000 and"},{"startTime":2191.319,"endTime":2195.12,"body":"it was the same bank. It was Chase 2 Chase. They did not guarantee it"},{"startTime":2195.12,"endTime":2198.44,"body":"the man said it. Yeah. She never got it back. They don't and I know"},{"startTime":2198.44,"endTime":2201.705,"body":"someone else there. We're seeing a lot of cloning of websites."},{"startTime":2202.405,"endTime":2206.105,"body":"And I know someone who got scammed out of $25,000 So,"},{"startTime":2206.245,"endTime":2209.225,"body":"Ouch. It is a buyer's market and also"},{"startTime":2210.39,"endTime":2214.089,"body":"consumers buy where we are close to. I mean, transport is going to be a"},{"startTime":2214.15,"endTime":2217.849,"body":"huge factor. It's a huge cost. It's very expensive. Yeah, it's transported."},{"startTime":2218.265,"endTime":2221.625,"body":"It really is. So you're really wise to pick a local"},{"startTime":2221.625,"endTime":2225.065,"body":"builder, you can go visit and verify who they"},{"startTime":2225.065,"endTime":2228.9,"body":"are. And, the transport cost will be like my when"},{"startTime":2228.9,"endTime":2232.38,"body":"I got one of my tiny it was 120 miles. So it was"},{"startTime":2232.38,"endTime":2235.875,"body":"fantastic. I think my delivery was like 3.. less than $500 So exciting."},{"startTime":2236.355,"endTime":2240.035,"body":"Yeah. But we're talking about some if you go across the country, I mean, it's"},{"startTime":2240.035,"endTime":2243.69,"body":"gonna be $20,000 Very smart to make your builder"},{"startTime":2243.69,"endTime":2246.829,"body":"local, or you can verify him local, him or her"},{"startTime":2247.05,"endTime":2249.505,"body":"locally. That's important to me. One,"},{"startTime":2250.605,"endTime":2253.825,"body":"one last question for you, you know, what do you envision"},{"startTime":2254.924,"endTime":2258.5,"body":"for the future of the tiny house movement kind of in light of,"},{"startTime":2258.5,"endTime":2260.839,"body":"of the ASTM work that you're doing?"},{"startTime":2262.02,"endTime":2265.859,"body":"I feel like it's gonna change the world. I really do. And even though"},{"startTime":2265.859,"endTime":2269.555,"body":"there's a there's a standard development going on with, ICC,"},{"startTime":2269.615,"endTime":2273.214,"body":"which I support is fine. Mhmm. I feel like it's just"},{"startTime":2273.295,"endTime":2276.81,"body":"it's modular construction. It's one type of construction. I feel like"},{"startTime":2276.81,"endTime":2280.65,"body":"we're going to create, a new classification of housing. That's my"},{"startTime":2280.65,"endTime":2283.865,"body":"that's my end goal. That's my hope. And,"},{"startTime":2284.405,"endTime":2288.245,"body":"we need more people involved that have expertise. If you're a consumer,"},{"startTime":2288.245,"endTime":2292.079,"body":"tell us what you want. Mhmm. They can join and be a voting member."},{"startTime":2292.14,"endTime":2294.72,"body":"Yeah. You know, it's open to anybody. And"},{"startTime":2296.995,"endTime":2300.675,"body":"we're just trying to create a safer product. But the last thing I'd like to"},{"startTime":2300.675,"endTime":2304.41,"body":"say is, you know, if you're involved in this and you're an advocate, please"},{"startTime":2304.41,"endTime":2308.19,"body":"include and be inclusive of every method that is out there."},{"startTime":2308.41,"endTime":2310.97,"body":"Because I think that's the last thing I'd like to say because I I let"},{"startTime":2311.13,"endTime":2314.915,"body":"Yeah. It's it's very important for us all to acknowledge the work of"},{"startTime":2314.915,"endTime":2318.675,"body":"others and not work against the work of others and acknowledge all"},{"startTime":2318.675,"endTime":2322.29,"body":"all levels. Nice. Well, Janet Thome, thank you so much for being a"},{"startTime":2322.29,"endTime":2325.97,"body":"guest for coming back on the show. I appreciate the update. And I'm"},{"startTime":2325.97,"endTime":2329.785,"body":"excited to get this one out there. Okay. Thank you so much, Ethan. Really appreciate"},{"startTime":2329.785,"endTime":2333.625,"body":"it. Thank you so much to Janet Thome for being"},{"startTime":2333.625,"endTime":2337.14,"body":"a guest on the show today. You can find the show notes for this episode,"},{"startTime":2337.14,"endTime":2340.68,"body":"including a complete transcript and links and resources"},{"startTime":2340.9,"endTime":2344.705,"body":"over at thetinyhouse.net/296. Again, that's"},{"startTime":2344.705,"endTime":2348.545,"body":"thetinyhouse.net/296. Don't forget to follow"},{"startTime":2348.545,"endTime":2352.225,"body":"the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast for more insights and conversations like"},{"startTime":2352.225,"endTime":2355.92,"body":"this. By following the show, you'll receive each new episode"},{"startTime":2356.14,"endTime":2359.82,"body":"every Friday when it drops. And if this episode resonated with"},{"startTime":2359.82,"endTime":2363.585,"body":"you, please share it with friends, family or anyone who might find value"},{"startTime":2363.585,"endTime":2367.425,"body":"in the world of tiny houses. Well, that's all for this week. I'm your host,"},{"startTime":2367.425,"endTime":2371.14,"body":"Ethan Waldman, and I'll be back next week with another episode of the Tiny"},{"startTime":2371.14,"endTime":2372.599,"body":"House Lifestyle Podcast."}]}