So what are the world's best people leaders doing to help their workers with rising stress levels and anxiety? Hello, my name is Chester Elton and with me is my dear friend and co-author, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Ches. Yeah, today we're going to speak with a world-renowned expert on human resource issues about what he's seeing in wellness trends. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. And with us today is our dear and good friend, Chris Rainey, who says he is a husband of an amazing wife. I can vouch for the fact that is true. Father to a beautiful girl, she is adorable. A sports addict, ice hockey, I might add. Podcast host and co-founder of HR Leaders, a cross-industry learning community powered by the world's most influential HR practitioners, and the founder of the new AI-powered HR copilot called Atlas Copilot. Welcome to the show, Chris. We are delighted to have you here today. How am I supposed to live up to that intro? You always do. This is an anxiety podcast and now you've caused more anxiety just by giving me the intro. That's right. It's so true. When we get introduced, we say, lower the bar. Now, way, way low. And look at us, we're doing the opposite. Now I'm anxious. Have you ever done that? They introduce you and you go, I want to meet that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Hey, you still, I think you still hold the record for one of our highest rated and most listened to podcasts ever. We interviewed you a few years ago. For those who may have missed that, can you help our listeners just to understand your journey, kind of admitting what you were going through? How far do you want me to go back? Yeah. We only have four hours, Chris. We only have four hours. No, on a serious note, Chester, you know me well. Where do you want me? How far do you want me to go back? You know, I always appreciate when you tell the story of the moment during your podcast where you were talking to the HR leaders. Yeah, take it from there. Yeah, so context before before HR leaders I worked in a in a very high-pressure Sales environment like a wolf of Wall Street type organization. So my experience with work, which was one of chaos, and you know, there definitely was zero psychological safety in that organization. And you were taught that, right, as well. So I worked in that company for 10 years from the age of 17. So that's all I knew. So I thought that's what you did. You know, who cares about your wellbeing, your mental health or your physical health. I need to just make money and get a promotion. So that was the context of what I had, right, you know, around me. And I saw people being rewarded for that. When I left that company and started HR Leaders, the company I run now, I kind of took some of that, unfortunately, with me over to the other side. And what ended up happening, which was also happening in that previous company, it led to me having anxiety attacks, heart palpitations, you know, sometimes I was having coming from growing up very poor, but I had never been more miserable. So I had my dream job, I own my own company, I work with my best friend, I have an amazing wife and daughter, but I would wake up every day with just severe feeling of anxiety and I didn't know why. And this went on for 10 years, probably more than 10 years, where I was hiding it from everyone. My wife didn't know, you know We've been together for 20 years. My best friend didn't know no one knew and the only person I did tell Was my mom and she's from a generation of of where you and she said don't tell no one Right, and she thought she was protecting me You know, she's from that generation where that's what you just did, right? You just didn't talk about this thing. You just got on with it. So I was like, okay, don't tell anyone as well. And it was, you know, my mom was like, don't tell them. They're going to think less of you. They're going to, you know, they're not going to respect you as a leader. You know, what do you think Tash? So unfortunately my mom meant well, but she kind of did more harm than good, basically. But to Chester's point, during my interviews, I interviewed chief H officers, global heads of wellbeing, global heads of DEI from the biggest companies in the world. I was interviewing an amazing guy called Tim Mundon, who at the time was the global head of well-being for Unilever, and had just come back from mental health leave. And I was like, wow, like, I didn't know at first, I didn't know that was a thing. And secondly, we're live on LinkedIn. And he's this incredible leader who's a global head of well-being and was being really open. And there was me hiding and pretending that everything was okay. And I felt like such a hypocrite on the call that we were having a conversation around well-being and I'm sitting here pretending. And it was during that moment that I shared with Tim and basically the entire world at that point how I was feeling because it was the first time I ever felt safe To do so and it was scary and I definitely would have recommended it for everyone live on LinkedIn But if for me it just felt right it was it was the moment so, you know Everyone found out my employees in the office that day who overheard the conversation, you know, my my wife Everyone and all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, what have I done? Right. This, you know, what, you know, and all of those fears came back of, you know, is my wife going to respect me? Are my team going to respect me as a CEO and a leader? And to my surprise, the first conversation I had was with someone in the team who said, I'm feeling exactly the same way. You know, isn't that fascinating when you finally feel free, when you finally feel safe, you realize that most people are struggling with the same stuff. And all those fears you had that you would become irrelevant or you'd be perceived as weak, it's exactly the opposite, right? People rally. And what does it say about your relationship with them and them with you? They care about you, right? Mm-hmm. But it was great, but at the same time, it kind of broke my heart because I realized that I hadn't provided the environment for them to have that conversation with me. So there was like this like sort of weird moment where I was like, great, and I'm happy that we're now having this conversation. But deep down, given the research and the content I produce, I had failed to create that psychological safety in my own company. So and I realized that from that point on have the conversations that said, hey, it's okay to talk about this? Yeah, it sends a clear signal that it is okay not to be okay. So part of that as leaders is our responsibility. Listen, don't force it. Don't force. Don't try and force the conversation and do it. But where it feels relevant and it makes sense, you should share because it opens up that doorway. And it was some of the people that were the closest to me, I spend every day with, that were suffering. We were all suffering. Some of my closest friends were in counseling and we talked to each other every week, but we didn't talk to each other, but none of us would share that. So yeah, it was an eye-opening moment, to say the least. You know, I'm curious, you know, since that moment and since we've talked, and you and I talk often, you know, we don't go too many weeks before having a Conversation, but what are some of the coping mechanisms that you've put in place? You know to make sure that you stay on track. I know that you know, you and I'll talk every now and again You say hey, give me a minute on this one. I'll call you. I'll call you in a week, you know Yeah, the first part is sounds so obvious, but just talking about it. I speak to my team about it. Even my personal assistant, Lisa, there's times where I'll say, hey, I need a break. Can you move some of these calls? You know, like, and just being super open. Because then it doesn't build. Because before what would happen to me, it would build, build, build, build, build, build, build. And it ended up resulting in a panic attack, right? It's just, it slowly builds. It's almost like a kettle just about to boil, if that makes sense That's kind of how the feeling was. But now whenever I have a conversation it just kind of depressurizes That so that's kind of a coping mechanism in a way, right? The second is exercise Regular exercise plays a huge part in my mental health The endorphin release even if it's going for a walk or just playing in the garden with my daughter, this helps reduce the stress and that's been proven, right, to be able to do that. Also, I've been more disciplined in setting boundaries. So again, I had, I came from this background where you kind of work like crazy, whereas I realize, no, actually you need to set boundaries. So this sounds, may sound crazy to everyone listening, but there were weeks where I didn't have lunch. Like literally, I would just work the entire day and eat when I get home. So I literally, I'm looking at it right now while I'm talking to you, have lunch scheduled. This is serious. I have lunch scheduled in my calendar. I didn't have that before. I was like, I'm gonna work all the way through because I work really hard. And so now I schedule that. I scheduled time with my daughter. So like, you know, in the evening, so when I get home, yes, there's loads more emails to send. Yes, there's work to do. But as soon as Robin gets home, we spend a couple of hours of dedicated time, read her a book, go to sleep, don't book anything in my calendar. These are non-negotiable times that everyone knows now. Practical, other practical things. Before I go to sleep, because I was having really bad trouble sleeping, you know, I told you that I was grinding my teeth and had all sorts of issues with that. I write down all of the things I'm worried about and all the things I need to do to get them out of my head, onto PayPal, anything. It could be written down in a Google Doc or anything, and it allows me to go, okay, I've acknowledged all of those things, I've written them all down, deal with them tomorrow. Because normally I would be up all night long thinking about all of these things I need to do tomorrow and I'll wake up exhausted and I'm no use to anyone at that point, so that's been a big one. That's so great, that's so practical, Chris. No, I love, yeah, I mean, those are, I mean, I don't think we've ever heard that one, yeah, writing down your anxieties, letting them out, and letting the universe have them. Otherwise, sometimes the hardest thing is to be alone with your own thoughts. Yeah. You know, like, it's tough, like, people don't realize that, right? So, and then the last thing I want to add before we move on is just making well-being part of our family routine and dynamic and this has been a huge one for us. Example, we go to, we do food shopping together, me, Robin and Natasha, we'll go to the butcher's once a week, pick up some healthy grass-fed meat, we'll go and buy our vegetables together. We've done a family gym membership, so me, Natasha and Robin will go play tennis together. So basically weaving wellbeing into our family routine so it becomes part of it. And Robin now understands, even as a six-year-old, this is healthy product and healthy food and the importance of us exercising. And we do it together. And this part, again, is something that we bond whilst we're doing it as well. And then lastly, at work, just making wellbeing part of daily conversations During one-to-ones or check-ins or doesn't matter what meeting it could be Just making well-being part of the conversation. So it's not a We have to have a separate conversation around well-being It should be part of the daily fabric in the fabric of the business if that makes sense. I love that It's just integrated into everything we do. It's that how are you doing? No, no, how are you really doing? Really doing, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, those are a few things. Am I saying I'm perfect to all of those things? No, but those are some of the things I've been working for us. And yeah, trying my best to be consistent, but also giving myself grace when I have a few days where I fall off, which we all do. Which we all do. And I love how open and vulnerable you have been about this. It has been an inspiration not only for us, for many other people. Tell us a little bit about, now a lot of people don't know HR leaders, so tell us a little bit about what you're learning. Like I just got to host an amazing panel. I mean, you brought in leaders that I couldn't even believe. head of well-being for Experian, for Unilever, etc. BCG, all these big organizations. And I got to just moderate this panel. Tell us what you're learning overall about mental health and wellness from all these experts that you get to interview every day. Yeah. Well, during those conversations, we spoke a lot about listening, right? And realized that empathy isn't just about listening. And one of the things that was brought up was, it's also about creating the environment where people feel safe to be vulnerable in the first place. Because you can have the best strategies and tools and apps and all of those support systems, but if you don't create the environment that people feel that they can be vulnerable, none of that works, you know? Even the company I worked in before that I mentioned had all of those perks and all of those things, but no one used them because they didn't, the stigma attached to all of these things and the slash was there, so you're like, well, I'm not even going to go and even go to my manager and have that conversation. So I think a big part of it is about creating psychological safety, and that's through a few things. One, like what we mentioned around storytelling, that could be the leaders showing their journey and experience. It could also be around, like we said, weaving well-being into all aspects of the employee experience. Even now companies are weaving this into their pre-boarding, let alone onboarding. They're weaving it into pre-boarding. So before people even start in the business, they're talking about wellbeing and how they're supporting employees. And now there's been research that's come out that people will, you know, especially the younger generation, they're looking at from the very beginning, whether considering to work for a business, is this a company that's going to support my mental health and wellbeing? So this isn't no longer, you know, a nice to have, it's kind of table stakes. I was going to say, it really is table stakes, isn't it? I want to know, look, and companies say, bring your whole self to work. Yeah. Having that as part of your pre-boarding and onboarding lets them know that we really do want to. Yeah, and we saw, again, during that panel, there was a study that said 86% of employees say their mental health and well-being are important to them, yet 50% of them feel they're actually supported by the organization. 50%, yeah. Right, so it's a huge gap. I think it's probably more than that, honestly. I think it's way more than that. I think those numbers are low as well. Those people, they probably don't feel psychologically safe enough to answer that survey, correct? As well, yeah. Yeah. In person, you've got incredible podcasts. Just tell people a little bit how they can learn more about you, where they should go, and more of what you do. Yeah. So, I spent the first 10 years of my career building one of the world's top HR conferences, right? Typical conference expo. But one thing we realized very early on is that at this level, these leaders need an opportunity and an environment where they can have meaningful conversations, network, benchmark, share, challenge each other, but in an environment that they could do that. Talking about psychological safety, that's one of the things we create at our events, is an environment where these leaders can be vulnerable, be challenged, and sometimes it's hard to do that in your own company. So we bring together HR executives, wellbeing, DEI leaders, some of the world's leading global brands so they can do that. And why do we do that? Because, well, the work that they do has a ripple effect for the millions, tens of millions of employees that they serve as well. So even if they took away one or two things from the session we did, Adrian, around wellbeing the other day, that ripple effect is impacting the lives of millions of employees, right? So that's kind of why we do what we do, to help shape the future of work for business, but also society as well. So we do that for our podcasts, where we share the journeys and experiences of these leaders, the highs and the lows, the good and the bad. And we also put together events all around the world where they can come together to network and benchmark. And on top of that, we've now released the world's first AI copilot for HR that allows them to ask any question and get instant answers, which has been trained on 10,000 hours of content, including Chester's and Adrian's and the amazing work that they do. So that's kind of why we do what we do. It's constantly evolving. The landscape of work, right, is dramatically changed over the last couple of years. The future of work is now. It's no longer, I think we need to rebrand that. The future of work is already here. If you missed it, you're a bit late for that. And HR executives are at the forefront of this, right? So it's a fascinating, exciting place to be as well, and that's kind of why I've spent the last 20 years, since the age of 17, I'm now 37, working in this space. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. Now that's, and where do people go? Where do they, what's the website? HR Leaders, and if you Google HR Leaders, we're everywhere. So just Google HR Leaders, we're the first search. Definitely on LinkedIn, where we post a lot of content. There, Chris Rainey on LinkedIn, HRLeaders.co, HRLeaders podcast on every platform as well. Okay, HRLeaders.co, awesome. Okay, so as we're getting, and with you, Chris, the time always flies and we're getting near our end too. Tell us, last time when we were on, we didn't really ask you, and I think this correlates, one of the stats we found writing Anxiety at Work was only 10% of people feel safe sharing their anxiety at work, so you weren't alone. Well, what do you think held you back from sharing with your significant other, your wife, your business partners, and how can we get over that stigma and breakthrough for everyone? Yeah. I think we, I didn't have a role model, and there wasn't many role models at the time, right? It took me accidentally coming across Tim to be able to do that. But now there's a lot more, like one of the silver linings of the pandemic was a spotlight that was shone on well-being. It's how we connected, right? You know, I recommend your bookings, like it works for many of the leaders that we speak to. It just, it was always there, I just don't think it really had the, I don't know, how do I explain it? There was always this stigma attached, but I think one of the things that we've done now is we've given people the language, and you do a lot in this book, to have these conversations. Because how do you have a conversation of something when you don't even understand it? So I didn't even know what was happening to me. So, but then from reading books like yours and others, I'm like, ah, that's me. I can recognize that. And I'm not alone. So through telling stories, you know, and, and people sharing is a huge thing. People think that's such a small thing when you say it, it's not for everyone listening. You know, if I didn't hear that story that day, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't, I don't know. I don't even want to think what, what position I would be in at that time, you know, to be able to do that. So it's really important to share that. But yeah, I just think honestly, the stigma that was attached to it and my lived experience, obviously, you know, I had friends, family members saying, don't talk about it, which didn't really help, you know. But they mean well, they want to protect you, right, as well. And there's a lot more support out there now. There's so many amazing, you know, companies and support systems that exist that we just didn't have before as well. And now we realize that they are also back this up as well, that leading with empathy is now a key leadership thing. Like all of the leaders on speaker suits and come to CHROs, I'm like, hey, your leadership program, what are some of the core components? They're like leading with empathy. That was not something, that was not there. That did not exist when I became a manager as well. So that's starting to cascade down through organizations of, this is how we lead here. And if you don't follow that, it's even linked to compensation in organizations now, which is amazing to see that. And it's also good for business. Right. It's also great. It's not just a, it's great for business. Isn't it interesting that not too many years ago, empathetic leaders were not seen as, that was not a strength, that was not a good weakness. That was a weakness, absolutely. I was that person, one quick story. I remember getting brought in a meeting with my HR team and CEO, and this is a true story, saying, you need to stop spending so much time with your team because you're their manager, not their friend. And I was like, what? They're like, yeah, you go to the gym with them, Chris, you go for walks during lunch, you go out together. And I'm like, wait a minute. So you're telling me the people that I spend most of my life with, that I go to work with every day for 10 years, that I shouldn't for relationships with them. Is that the message? And they were like, yes. Well, you know, when you say it like that. And I was like, and then the one thing I was going to say is, I had the highest retention rate, double the retention rate on my team than any other team in the business. Right. Because of... Shocker, right? Shocker. Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. In personal practices, you've given us two or three that you do. What was the best tip that you got when you started to feel comfortable and say, okay, I need to do this, this, and this? Give us two or three of your non-negotiables. You've kind of talked around it, but sort of one, two, three, things that really… It has to be diet. Diet, okay. It has to be I even went so far to do a a Intolerance test and found out that there was some certain foods that were contributing to my anxiety and as well So that was huge so many different things came back and like I found out that I'm lactose intolerant I found out that I have a wheat allergy. I found out that I'm allergic to nuts like all sorts of things that were contributing to me feeling terrible. Because also your mental health is very, as you know, linked to your gut health. So I was like, I need to make sure my gut health is great. Otherwise I could be doing all the exercise I want, but if I'm eating all the wrong things. So non-negotiable is diet, exercise, and sleep. If I'm, like honestly, it sounds obvious but before you consider medication or anything else I was on medication Like that I'm no longer any on any of that stuff because I was basically Those I get like before you do anything else get those free things Yeah, and by the way if one falls off it doesn't work you need you need like if you if you eat if you if I I know it's as I eat bad that day. I have a terrible sleep And yeah, what happens is I wake up and I don't want to go to the gym because I'm tired So is this sort of and one one one thing I did is I told all of those things So the closest people around me and I said to them if you see me falling off. I Would really appreciate That you let me know and they have a partner and Shane Shane said I know it should been turning up late to work lately Chris. I'm like hey I'm not getting enough sleep right. Tasha she literally last night babe I noticed this week you've been eating really unhealthy I know you've been really busy at work but you need to get back on eating you know good healthy meals. So I've asked them to give me that feedback as it's a gift so you know so just be clear on that you know I don't like it when they tell me it. It doesn't feel good, but that's something I've learned is I'm asking people around me to help me out. And as you said, having those accountability partners. So those are the three things. I know that sounds really obvious to everyone, but like, it's the most, those are the things that make the biggest difference for me. Great context though. Thank you. It really is. Feedback is a gift and I love that. I love that. Everything you're doing, Chris, we wanna thank you so much for coming on today. You're an inspiration and your advice is practical and leads us to a better place, as you've found. So everybody, we wanna thank Chris Rainey for joining us today. Check out HRLeaders.co. You will, if you're an HR professional or you care about people at all, you wanna find out everything that Chris, Shane, and his team are working on. So thanks again, Chris, for joining us. You bet, and check out HR Atlas Co-Pilot, his new product, it really is amazing. You know, the thing that we love about Chris is not only is he completely tuned into HR and all the leaders, and not only does he share his story, we count him as one of our dear friends, and there's no higher compliment than to call somebody your friend. Thanks for being with us, Chris. No, I love it. I'll say one thing before we go, Chester, you need to make your daily gratitude text messages something that everyone listening can access. So you need to create a, if you, like, you need to create a text this number, and so everyone listening right now can do it, and then they receive those gratitude messages. So Chester does these text messages that I get every day and around gratitude and some great inspirational quotes etc so we need to create next episode text this number yeah see it's what it's once a week on our website yeah yeah okay okay all right we need to make it easier for people don't just have it in text like our dear friends get it every day. Everybody else gets it once a week. All right. I'm sorry I gave away the secret. No worries. Go to thecultureworks.com to sign up. Thanks, Chris. Take care, my friend. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Well, Adrian, a great guest. We've known Chris for a long time. Wonderful personal story on how he deals with his personal anxiety in his business, with his family, with his friends. I'm interested, what were some of the key takeaways that you can share? We could spend as much time or more debriefing because there were so many notes I took. First off, from a corporate perspective, if you're not doing this, I love what he says. He talks to HR leaders around the world every day. It's table stakes now. People are coming to work for you, expecting you to help support their mental health. Not just the apps and the EAPs and this and the other, but to actually give a darn as a leader. Are you creating an environment where people feel safe to talk about things? Yeah. And realize that so many people are struggling with the same thing. You know, he said, look, I struggled with it for 10 years, hit it through everybody. And then when he finally talked about it, people came up and said, I'm struggling with the same thing. So my first takeaway in our conversation was talk about it. Find people that you trust and talk about it. So many good, and you ask at the end to give me some of the three, but he gave us six that I wrote down at the beginning, really good things that he has learned to do. So he's very introspective. Like for example, I have to build in breaks. I know that I can't keep working until things build. And I see that with burnout. I mean, when burnout really hits you, sometimes it can take you a year to get back to where you were. Don't let that happen. That was his first, really powerful. Yeah, I liked his practice at the end of the day, writing down all the things that he's anxious about and getting it out and putting it out in the universe so that he doesn't think about it all night and it interrupts his sleep, which he said is one of his key three, right? Eat well, exercise, and sleep. Then he went a step further that I really appreciated when he said, and I've got people around me and I tell them, if you see me sleeping, call me out on it, let me get back on schedule, whether it's his partner Shane Kemp or his wife, Natasha. That is really key, right? You invite people into the process. Well, and I really was, and he says, bring the right people in, because bless our moms or dads, or they may have grown up in a different generation. Don't expect them to play that role, and it's okay. Find people who will play that role. And I love what he said, these are uncomfortable conversations. When you have to say, hey Chas, you're looking like you're dragging, is something going on? Are you eating? Are you exercising? Are you sleeping? It's okay, but you gotta have people who'll do that to you. Yeah, and he said one of my favorite things in creating that safe environment is let people know they're not alone. That you've got a friend in this, you know, that you've got a manager or a coworker that cares about you. And when you feel that kind of support, that you're not alone, you have people to talk to, everything gets better really fast. Yeah, with a role model, with storytelling of, you know, I mean, we've all, you say this, we've all had anxiety, we've all had depression, different parts of our lives. Talk about it, let people know this is okay. I've gone through tough things too. And so, you know, just amazing. So what an amazing podcast, what an amazing guest. Chris Rainey coming back for the second time. We don't have many people back two times, but Chris deserved it. And when I think of role models, you know who I'm thinking of, Jess? Well, Brent Klein. Like, do I ever feel alone when Brent Klein is producing our podcast? No, no I don't. And my anxiety levels go way up. My other role model, Christy Lawrence, who helps us find amazing guests. And of course, all of you who listen in, you inspire us. If you like this podcast, please share it. Hey, pick up a copy, if you haven't already, of our book, Anxiety at Work. Yes, it is a bestseller. We don't really like to talk about that, but some people do. We'd love you to visit thecultureworks.com for free resources to help you and your team thrive. We love speaking to audiences around the world, whether it's live, and that's always a lot of fun, or online. We do it with organizations literally from every industry in every continent around the world. Give us a call. We'd like to speak to you at your event. Again, as Adrian says, pick up a copy of our book. It's great, it's available in Audible, it's digital, it's available on video books, and of course you can always get the paper version, which is my favorite version of the book. Well, Adrian, great guest, great information, always fun to be with you, and as always, I leave you with the last word. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. Until next week, we wish you the best of mental health.