Alternative Design
We want to help designers of space think like futurists so we can become makers of a better future.
Alternative Design
Happy Happens Here
We all know what joy feels like, but what does it mean to design for it? In Episode 34 of the Alternative Design Podcast, we sit down with Ron Swidler, CEO of The Gettys Group, to uncover how joy can transform from a simple emotion into a powerful design objective in hospitality spaces. We explore the elements that create sensory delight and surprise, such as color, play, and technology, and discuss how even the most sophisticated environments can invite smiles, spark wonder, and elevate everyday experiences.
Inspired by Ingrid Fetell Lee’s book "Joyful" and the immersive HD Expo booth it brought to life, Ron shares his insights on balancing elegance with whimsy, personalization with spontaneity, and strategy with pure human delight. Whether you're designing a five-star resort or a budget-friendly boutique, this episode will remind you that joy isn't just a vibe—it's a tool.
Welcome to the Alternative Design Podcast, where we explore the power of foresight and design to create future-ready spaces. In each episode, we talk to diverse voices to discover the ways our world is changing and uncover insights that will influence the built environment of tomorrow. I'm your host, Kaylin Reed, an interior designer and certified futurist. And I want to help designers think like futurists so we can take actionable steps today to become makers of a better future. What if joy was something we could build? Not stumbled into, but intentionally shaped through light, through color, and through form? What if spaces could lift our spirits by design? To create spaces that don't just serve a purpose but leave a feeling. In today's episode, you'll hear a live-recorded conversation between myself and Ron Swidler, CEO of the renowned hospitality design firm The Gettys Group. We sat at Poolside in a fully immersive, joy-inspired booth at HD Expo, where Gettys reimagined what a hospitality space could look like, guided by ideas from Ingrid Fatelli's book, Joyful. The booth and our conversation explored what it truly means to design for joy and how hospitality can transform everyday moments into extraordinary ones. We discussed why elements like play and color and surprise can be powerful tools for emotional connection, how joyful experiences can still feel elevated and sophisticated, and how AI might even play a role in crafting more joyful environments in the future. Whether you're designing hotels, experiences, or simply curious about the future of emotional design, this is for you. This is episode 34. Happy Happens Here. I am a design futurist at Kimball International. And so really what we do is we explore the future of design, whether that be for workplace, for education, for hospitality or for healthcare. We are curious about the future of the built environment and what it means for the human experience and really what superpower you as designers and specifiers and decision makers in the built environment, the influence you have on those spaces. And so I am joined today by Mr. Ron Swidler from the Gettys Group, and I'm honored to have him here. And so we are going to explore the future of hospitality through the lens of none other than what you are submerged in in this fantastic booth that you were surrounded by. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is joy. So without further ado, in just a minute, we're going to get started with a bit of an interview, if you will, a conversation. And then we'll hold some questions at the end. But really, this time is just to really explore, again, what's happening in hospitality right now and really what are some of the key avenues and ways that we can start to inject joy in the designs of these spaces moving forward. So Ron, is there anything that you would like to do?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I just wanted to welcome everybody to the third annual meeting of the HD Book Club. Yes. I hope everyone has read it. Because the author is going to be here for an in-depth interview. This actually is the inspiration, believe it or not. And I highly recommend this book. It's called Joyful. It's by Ingrid Fatelle Lee. And you would think I'm hawking her book, actually. But uh what happened was that I was introduced to this book and saw her TED Talk. So those of you who like the short form of information, uh, there are many of you out there, uh, just watch her TED Talk and you can get the essence of this book. But it inspired this joyful environment that we're in right now. So a big thank you to Kimball Hospitality, a big thank you to my colleagues at the Geddies group, uh, and thank you to all of you guys who have shown up uh to experience this space and hear what we have to say.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Awesome. Well, Ron, let's get started with defining joy because I think that's something that, you know, many of us, I think, would think that they understand, right? And and uh know how to define. But I think in this context, it's really good to understand um some of more of the science, maybe that's underneath joy and kind of what are some of the layers that are are underneath that term and what it means for us, especially in hospitality spaces.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So I think the quick answer is people think that joy is happiness. Um, I'd say that happiness is a small subset of joyfulness. Joyfulness means that your basic needs are all taken care of and that you can fully um enjoy a place. Uh so designing for joy, which we're going to talk about, isn't just a place that makes you happy, but it's a place that for various reasons has in-depth appeal. Um sometimes beyond what you can easily understand. Why is it, for example, that a rounded shape brings you joy? Uh, the answer is because you looked up at your mother when you were born. Uh, unless those of you who are uh born in a test tube or something and didn't have that experience, I'm sorry for you. Um but but the the the notion that there are things we are human animals, um, most of us, and there are certain things that bring us joy because we know that our basic needs are being taken care of. Yeah. And so joy by definition is more than happiness, it's a level of fulfillment. Um, and frankly, joy can be felt throughout your whole body. I think happiness often is a smile, yeah. Uh, and joy is elation.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay. Well, and I want to talk about just for a few minutes because you started to unpack maybe some of the sensory considerations that go into joy. And part of what Ingrid Fettel Lee discusses in her book is really about joy being rooted in sort of these everyday experiences that you know that sort of ground us in these sensory moments. And so you mentioned, of course, the curvilinear shape. I don't know what you're talking about, Ron. I really don't know what you mean here.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know why that even came to me looking down um at your belly.
SPEAKER_03:Um so, but I just want to discuss again what are some of those, you know, sensory experiences, those simple um, you know, design elements that that are really sort of catering to our brains that predicate that experience of joy.
SPEAKER_05:Well, let's let's think a little bit about color. So we're in a very colorful space, um, and it's happy colors. Um, but why is that? Why is it that these color combinations and this lighting makes you feel a certain way? Um, and it actually all goes back to when we lived in the wild and we saw flowers and we saw fruits and we knew that we would be taken care of, that there would be something that would be food in the future. Um and so I know that you just have to remember that we are still just evolved from apes. Uh, and those of you who don't believe we're evolved from apes, we can have that conversation offline. Um, but taking care of our basic needs is part of why color ends up being a catalyst. Also, if we look at a range of color, think about a rainbow. Um, when you see a diversity of color and an abundance of color, it also is a signal that there is plenty, that there is um abundance to satisfy our needs. So color brings joy and there is a reason for it. And it isn't purely that our eyes are designed a certain way, and when lots of parts of our brain get activated, it's healthier. Uh, there really is like a uh a psychosomatic uh association with uh a broad range of colors. And certain brighter colors that are colors that you find in nature are are a trigger.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that makes sense. I mean, I I know there's a lot of studies out there that really show that even texture and having again that variety of texture can actually slow your amygdala, which is the fight or flight response. And so, again, there's I mean, there's tons of really great science that, you know, underlines this idea that again, how important sensory experiences are. But I want to go back and sort of underline what you mentioned that joy at this sort of baseline is making sure that human needs are met. And so what an incredible way for designers to again set the foundation of function, which is of course what we we do when we go to design a space and making sure that baseline needs are, of course, being met, you know, for all occupants. And then, you know, really being able to then layer on top of that these elements and these sensorial, you know, moments of surprise and delight, if you will.
SPEAKER_05:So I just want to go back to kind of hospitality 101 for those of you in our industry. Um, so there's two metrics that are most important to the hospitality industry, one in terms of performance beyond occupancy and rate of hotels. One is guest satisfaction, and the other is intent to recommend. Okay. Now, those metrics are measured. And when you stay in a hotel and you've stayed in a lovely Hilton or Marriott or whatever hotel and you get a post-stay survey, and they are asking you how you felt about your stay, you give a reaction. Now, your reaction where they're really trying to look for is would you stay there again? Would you recommend it to someone else? Okay. And if you can create an experience that is a combination of three things, our industry is about three things. It's about the built environment, which we're in right now, it is a bit about the quality of service provided, and it is about the brand touch points, the things that you interact with, the food and beverage, the soundtrack, all of the touch points in an environment. Now, uh, if you realize that you could design for joy, that you could create an experience that makes people feel great, then they are more likely to give you high guest satisfaction and intent to recommend, which are key metrics for a hotel and when they're being measured against their competition.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So it isn't just purely that we're designing something that feels good or looks pretty, right? But it has a direct financial implication on the performance of the hotel. And that is a key statement that we wanted to make, Geddes and Kimball, when we designed something as an actual living example of wait a second, if I stayed in a room that felt like this, wow, I'd feel really good. You know, I'd wake up energized, I'd wake up with a smile on my face. Well, okay, that's great. But it actually would impact the hotel performance.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. No, and I think we're seeing that more and more, not even just in hospitality, Ron, but you know, in workplace and education and healthcare, we continue to see how the design of space and how human outcomes from the design of that space is actually translating to more bottom line issues. I mean, workplace is a great example, right? How many, you know, corporate uh stakeholders and leaders are designing for engagement? You know, we have return to office is the continual conversation, but you know, where is the engagement piece? How are we supporting those human outcomes? So I love what you're saying that, you know, having, again, these human outcomes that feel altruistic at their core, you know, are also, of course, going to serve um, you know, those key customers and decision makers that we have, that of course we want to make them happy as well. So I love that we sort of have that, you know, the why sort of backed up really well.
SPEAKER_05:But you just brought up healthcare, which I'm sure there are a lot of healthcare designers around today too. And think about how the quality of sleep is affected by your environment. So if you're creating an environment that feels restful um and it feels comfortable, as opposed to jarring and vibrant and things that would keep you awake, um, you could actually have a positive impact on someone's well-being, uh, not just their kind of level of satisfaction uh with the environment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, absolutely. So I want to kind of break down the space that we're in right now, if we could, just have some of the background. Because I mean, of course, we know that hospitality experiences and spaces are known for their opportunity for escape, uh, to be able to get out of sort of the mundane of life, if you will, and experience something truly unique and different. Um, but if we kind of look at this space that we're in right here, what are what's some of the things being orchestrated behind the scenes that's really impacting joy in this particular space? Just as again, that tangible example for some designers to to really look at and and see kind of how this is all being orchestrated.
SPEAKER_05:Well, the obvious one is that we are talking in a swimming pool. Love it. Um, which I I think that is one of those uh environments that people associate with joy. Yes. So emulating an environment that has visual cues um that you would associate with other joyful memories is is uh one way to kind of game the system. Um another is that we've designed spaces that are scaled to the human. So sometimes when we're in very large spaces, we feel overwhelmed, or when we're in very small spaces, we feel like we're a little too enclosed. So the design of the space by breaking it into three areas allows for you to experience three different things. I mean, think about it when you guys go into a restaurant, and if all you see is a sea of tables, two tops and four tops throughout the whole thing, no banquettes, no room dividers, anything else, and you kind of get it right away. There's no curiosity, there's no sense of discovery, there's no invitation to explore. And by designing this booth the way that we did that has three different distinct zones, which are designed for different purposes, it also entices someone to look deeper. And then there has to be a payoff. The payoff are the little design details all over the place that make you smile, that might surprise you. It might be a saying on the wall or a note on the step of the uh ladder to get out of the ritual pool. All of these little cues, the painting on the on the leaves, all the little things you find along the way. Those of you who figured out that those are 3D printed models of the furniture that is actually in the booth is just one more little sense of discovery. So when you design for a sense of discovery, especially in hospitality, um uh there's a payoff. There's a an experience where your time to explore more does have a return on investment. So we have a space that is designed for uh lounging in in in small groups and interacting, perhaps having a business discussion. Uh, we have a larger gathering space here that's reminiscent of a swim-up pool bar. And then we have um a bedroom space that is designed to ask you to think a little differently about how spaces can be designed and configured, a bed that floats, vanities with curvaceous forms, uh, closets that are designed uh for ease of access to Barbie style pre-assembled uh outfits for you. Um, all of those things have payoffs. You open, you open the wardrobe and there's something there, and it's something more than you expected.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So so there, I'm giving I'm getting long-winded, but the idea is that when you design, and frankly, let's face it, we are all better design consumers than we used to be. We know good design from average design, we know great design from good design, we look for it everywhere, we appreciate it, we photograph it, we post it, we talk about it, and the whole level of design education has gone up, as have design expectations. So, how are you going to deliver against those design expectations? And well, frankly, that was the challenge that we all embarked on together when taking on this project.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, and what I love so much about this project is that it feels like such a testament to the balance between the surprise and delight, those you know, key themes of joy, but then really balancing elegance. Because I think that, you know, as a designer myself, I think something that I would maybe start to ask is, well, how do you make sure that those elements of surprise and delight, you know, maintain that level of sophistication that some of our uh, you know, stakeholders and customers are still looking for? I mean, if you're looking for, you know, a Bellagio kind of experience, how would you inject something like surprise and delight and joy in this really sophisticated way that can again really balance these two um these two things?
SPEAKER_05:Well, actually, we designed the Bellagio and uh that was not easy. Um and if you have more questions, talk to Matt over here. He'll tell you about what that took.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect subject matter expert.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um, but you I think you you raise a really interesting point as it relates to the timelessness associated with design. And when you then go back to this idea of joyful, and I want to I want to talk through kind of ways to intentionally design to design for joy, but uh if you say that this has been true since we lived in caves, it's likely to continue to happen, right? So these aren't just fads, right? These are timeless ways of appealing to how humans want to live and what re what what you can create that they can react to.
SPEAKER_03:Such a critical distinction, I think. Because I think many might think, you know, oh, well, it's the trendy, you know, moment, you know, where you can take your photo and post it on social media, or it's you know, um, again, these things that feel a bit more um uh temporal in nature. And so to your point, you know, having a human need for joy has sustained, you know, all of time. And so, you know, how you can do that in unique ways. I would love to dive into some of the things.
SPEAKER_05:Let's do it. Let's do a book reading.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect. Um page 32.
SPEAKER_05:Page 32.
SPEAKER_03:Paragraph four.
SPEAKER_05:Paragraph four. Um so in her book, um, she breaks down 10 triggers for joyfulness. And uh you can find these online, by the way. Um the first is energy, and things that are energetic, again, create joy. And there's lots of ways of identifying energetic. It can be in colors and the vibrancy associated with it, it can be the energy of people gathered in a single space, like this. And again, that's part of the like sense of security when you're with a pack.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Okay. So energy is number one. Number two is abundance. Um, abundance is a very joyful thing. Then you don't have to worry about is there enough? Um, and when we see lots of a single object, uh flowers, for example, if you see a lot of flowers, that's joyful. Um, the third is freedom, the sense of not being constrained. I associate that with being outdoors, and that's why we have plants in here, our signals of the outdoors. The fourth is harmony. You guys might notice if you stand in the middle of the booth uh and you stand where I am, for example, there's harmony, there's balance. And the reason why harmony is a joy trigger is your brain understands it faster. Your brain can see half of the space. It's a Wes Anderson trick. If you guys are fans of the movie maker Wes Anderson, I haven't seen those films. Good job. Oh my god, Andrew. Thank you for exposing her to some pop culture. Um, and it's it's the notion of you can understand your environment faster, which is critically important. Play, the notion of play brings joy. We all played a lot as kids. Uh and I'm sure that we recall being playful and the joy that that brought to us uh as young people. Surprise, again, go look for things and find something that is surprising. That is a trigger of joy. Transcendence, which is being up high. If you've ever been on top of a building and and felt that fluttering, that's why a first kiss that happens on a top of a building or a high place can be confused for love. Um magic, uh, anything that feels magical, things that are, and Disney is very, very good at this. Anything that feels like um there is a surprise and delight associated with it. Um celebration, think about confetti and champagne and things that you associate with early birthday parties or key moments in your life. And lastly, is renewal. Um, why in the spring, when the green shoots start coming through the soil, do we feel joy? Because we know things will be renewed again. So all of those are ways, and you think about those applications, and you're in an environment where we have interpreted all of those cues and brought them to you. And it works. That's why it feels so good in here. So um, anyway, so that was I just thought our book reading might be helpful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I agree. And I I think that so all of these elements, I think my burning question that I have that I I want to pivot the conversation to is the role of technology within the these sort of categories and and you know, defined concepts that Ingrid um brings to the table, because I think right now there's a big conversation, of course, in hospitality around personalization and um, you know, what data is able to bring to the table as far as convenience and offering um, you know, um the guests an ability to have control over their experience. But I think there continues to be an uh debate afoot, I think, of you know, how how much technology is um, you know, too much technology? At what point are we sort of sacrificing some of those human connection moments? And so um, I guess I'm just curious what you believe the role uh of technology is in being able to support um any or all of some of these concepts and where do the boundaries maybe need to live with it? Okay, so I know it's a loaded question. I feel like I just asked nine questions.
SPEAKER_05:Um, look that question was brought to you by AI. Yeah. Um so I I I think the that technology is just a vehicle and it can be utilized for anything. So if we took and and I'll let you, I'll let you choose. You you you pick one category, okay, and I will tell you how technology could aid in, could be a vehicle uh to to achieve that objective.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, let's talk about let's talk about play.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so play. Uh have you ever played Candy Crush? Uh it's addictive, watch out, people. It's true. Um, so I think actually, is as silly as it sounds, technology is a form of play. And for those of you who do play video games or things like it, uh, there is escapism associated with it. Uh, play allows you to be creative, you can build things with technology. Um, and I think uh tech can be a great enabler for play, even something. Let's go to AI for a second. Who in the room has played around with image generation utilizing AI? Okay, who hasn't? Okay, try Chat GPT 4.0. Uh you'll be surprised what you're able to do. Um it's a chance to play. What happens if I combine you know a scene from the movie Shrek and this hotel guest room? And what would the room look like if it was a Shrek room? And that's a sense of play and a sense of discovery and a sense of joy. So I think technology can open our open our minds to the fun and uh just a matter of how the technology is used.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I I agree. And I think, you know, part of what I want to maybe just underline a little bit with, you know, technology is that I think right now, you know, we're seeing a lot of I think trend in technology to to kind of almost a counter trend, if you will, towards humans wanting to not have such a predictable experience. Um, and there's, you know, there's there's a catch-22 to that, right? So I mean, you know, in terms of designing for that functional baseline of people who, you know, of course, want to feel a sense of control of their environment, that's not necessarily what we're we're talking about. But to some degree, I think people are really looking to come and not have their experience dictated to them, right? And so as we look at, you know, AI and even over the next three to five years, we start to see large language models. That's sort of the fancy terminology for, you know, your chat GBT 4.0. Um, as we see the progression of those even starting to become large action, you know, models and suggestions for things for you to do, right? I mean, we're already seeing this in hospitality of, you know, whether that's a concierge and you know, personalized recommendations. But I think there is something to the spontaneity and again, the unpredictability of just being surprised. And I think that that's something that, again, designers, we still have um the superpower of being able to um at the very least, you know, provide the tools to be able to have kind of those experiences. Would you, would you agree?
SPEAKER_05:I do. And I and something came to mind. Um, has anyone played with uh one of the Google add-ons that gives you walking directions between two points that is not just the fastest way, but it is the most beautiful way, or the safest way, no, or the most shade uh to walk in, or the most sunshine between your two destinations? I didn't know uh that's tech that's available in beta right now. Wow. So if you have the ability to say, oh, I want to walk the most beautiful way between these two points, yeah. Well, there's technology creating and enabling that isn't just about efficiency and speed, right? It's about actually teasing out that curiosity and that experience a little bit more.
SPEAKER_03:No, I love that. I love that. I think that's a great way of, you know, again, technology serving the human experience and and not necessarily dominating it or or domineering the experience. You're still letting someone explore and have their agency in a space. So that's great. I would love to talk about um an example that you've had, maybe just even from you know a recent travel experience, but something that really felt like was this surprise, uh, you know, joyful experience for you outside of the beautiful booth that we're sitting in here right now. Um, anything come to mind?
SPEAKER_05:You know, I'm gonna answer your question slightly differently. Um, sorry about that. So I'm doing a plug right now for the greatest YouTube channel I have ever found. And I am strongly suggesting that you guys explore it yourself because it is about joy. But it is not someone talking about joy, it's about two people living in a Garden of Eden that they have created in the mountains of Azerbaijan, and it is called Village Life Vlog or Yeah, a village life vlog, V-L-O-G. But if you look up Azerbaijan farm, you'll find it. These people live a simple life with no technology, they cook over open fires, they farm um beautiful fruits and vegetables. Aziza cooks outdoors in front of you, and the soundtrack is just the sounds of nature. Wow, the roosters crowing, the you know, the birds, everything that creates an environment that is representational of the joy that we are trying to create in a built environment. So, yes, I can tell you about the beautiful hotels that I've stayed in and the experience and surprise and delight moments uh associated with that, which can be built into that hotel experience absolutely. Um but I wanted to take the conversation back to what everyone here could walk away with, uh, which is a way to unlock joy in your life by watching this YouTube channel. And by the way, it's not just me, they have 7.4 million subscribers to this channel. 7.4 million people watch these videos, and they do it because it's peaceful and calming and beautiful. So uh if you want a little bit of peace and calm and beauty in your life, uh and you don't have an environment like this to go home to, uh, I suggest virtually going to Azerbaijan uh and spending some time in a Garden of Eden.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. No, that's great. I have it already saved on my phone. That's what we'll be listening to this weekend for sure.
SPEAKER_05:It is on all weekend in my house in the background. My animal, my two dogs love watching that show.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, no doubt. Um, so you know, I'm curious. I, you know, I know I keep making you give us examples and examples because I'm an examples person and I really like examples, but I'm I'm curious if there is maybe an opportunity where you've seen joy embedded in an experience that perhaps didn't have a lavish budget, that perhaps just had a bold idea, that maybe wasn't, you know, something that had this really astronomical five-star, you know, hotel experience. What would be an example of that that again could get designers thinking a bit differently about a bold idea versus a lot of money?
SPEAKER_05:Okay, when you said bold, I thought you said bowl, and it made me think of uh Kimton hotels. Has anyone stayed in a Kimpton where they put a fish bowl, a goldfish bowl, in your room with a fish in it? No, they used to ask you if you want fish or no fish when you check into the hotel and that wasn't are you pescatarian? Um so by putting a live goldfish in your room as your companion, it was surprise and delight, it was low cost, it was companionship, uh, and in desperate moments it might even be food. I'm kidding, of course you wouldn't eat the goldfish. Don't eat goldfish. Uh no, unless they are pepperage farm goldfish. And I highly recommend the Harry Potter uh Peppage Farm Goldfish. There's a limited edition out there for you. There you go. Um, I know you like examples.
SPEAKER_03:We should just have like all the examples in front of us here just to see. I wish I shouldn't have a giant ad. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:They're butterbeer flavored, by the way. That's that's that's why I mentioned yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. But no, but that but I want to stay on there for a second. So one of my good friends was the producer of the wizarding world of Harry Potter. Okay. He oversaw the design and construction of the theme park, and there was uh a massive budget, obviously, for that project. Um, but interestingly, part of the joy that he was trying to achieve within the the park was a sense of being in a place that felt magical because you had only seen it in the movies or imagined it in the books.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And so part of the design intent was to hide all the technology. So, yes, the pictures moved on the walls as they did in the movies, but there were no, there weren't, you know, LED screens of advertising, advertisements and things like that because they didn't want to break the illusion. Okay. And I think good design carries the concept all the way through. And a testament to Kimball hospitality, really, and to the Getty's design team, this is carried all the way through. And great design uh requires a level of commitment. There is no easy button, even with uh technology and and large language models. Um, it takes time, it takes passion. Um I'm gonna teach everybody a word uh today. If you don't know the Japanese word, if anyone is Japanese or speaks Japanese, you know the word is you, which is Y-O-Y. Y-O-Y-U. Yo-yu, yo-yu. Sorry, sorry, sorry. And it means it means um taking the time necessary to enjoy an experience. And it may be the design experience, it may be a walk in the woods. Um, but I think part of what we're doing is creating a place that people want to spend more time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Wow. I love that. I feel like my brain just my my gears kind of were spinning about, you know, how incredible would it be, you know, to design for a sense of slowness to be able to actually slow down the busyness that we all have.
SPEAKER_05:Should we do some deep breathing for everybody right now? How do you get your nervous system to see that? Find a place on the floor.
SPEAKER_03:100%, 100%. Yoga by the pool. Um but no, I I I love that. I think that, you know, just um, you know, again, how are we taking the opportunity to make sure that, you know, people aren't passing by the joyful experience that's been designed for them? And of course, you know, as designers, we can't always control how people will experience the space on their own terms. But I think that there is intention in the design that we can bring that allows people to stop, whether it's that sense of awe or sense of wonder that makes you pause, so that you can have, again, more of these positive human outcomes that we know, you know, deliver to some of these, you know, bottom line, these metrics and hospitalities. I mean, just going back to, you know, putting that red bow tie on it's not just about, you know, feeling good for feeling good. I mean, yes, it is, but at the same time, it's also, you know, having this amazing platform as designers to change the way people move throughout a space and experience it. And it's it's really powerful.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So just to just to layer on to that, we talked the joyful book is really interesting because it tells you half the story. It tells you about the positive ways you can make people feel uh in an environment. What it doesn't tell you is how to avoid the negatives. I think it's we have to start by eliminating the things that are frustrating and disturbing, the very bright light that hurts your eyes, or the uncomfortably cold floor, or the things that are triggers. Again, we're just human animals. We eliminate the negatives and then we enhance the positives. And and I think that's the design advice for all designers, I think, is how does it make you feel? And if something bothers you, it likely bothers others. Right. If the, you know, you guys are sitting on ottomans. I can't sit on an ottoman for more than five minutes anymore. My back can't handle it, right? So I wouldn't be designing ottomans for a long stay. Um, but I would think about what makes people feel comfortable and helps them achieve their objectives and then look for design opportunities to signal those things that that are memorable.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, and that's great. And I honestly the ottoman conversation has me thinking of my next thing I want to discuss about just generations and how, you know, we talked about, of course, at the beginning how joy is this evolutionary experience, something that we all share in having this shared human experience. But is there an opportunity to design for joy that can be specifically tailored or catered to perhaps different generations? And I say that knowing that, of course, we have, you know, gen alphas that, you know, new um demographics of travelers that are, you know, coming and experiencing these spaces for new reasons, whether it's bleisure or blended trips, or, you know, again, whole new demographics of people that, you know, hoteliers are trying to target. Um, how would you go about designing Joy, uh, whether it's either tailored to different generations or something that's more universal for everyone?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I think that there's a um a really important thing that we need to be designing for that we're not spending enough time designing for right now, which is less able-bodied people. Um, my parents, I visited them a couple weekends ago in North Carolina. They both require walkers. And if they go into a hotel room, like getting their shoes on is difficult, right? So if we can design a room that works equally well for less abled people and more abled people, I think we're kind of paying more attention. And so joy for my parents might be a chair with arms that they can easily get in and out of, right? Um, bright enough fixtures in the bathrooms that they can see. Like, so I think again, we have to think about the elimination of the pain points and then enhancements of the positives, um, because I think both exist. Um there's all kinds of new thinking around um space. And I think a younger generation is more comfortable being in a smaller space than an older generation is, right? And lower light conditions, maybe even louder conditions. Um, they're willing to have shared amenities like going down the hall to get a steamer or um, you know, extra blankets or towels out of a cubby. Um, and an older generation would expect that that was already in their room uh and we would be designing for that.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_05:Um, so I I think that we can be more conscientious to design for different audiences, um, but ultimately the hospitality industry usually is appealing to a fairly wide demographic and psychographic.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and when it isn't, and I'll say this only because we're designing a Moxie hotel, so don't, and we're developing a Moxie hotel. So sorry anyone who's a developer or designer or Marriott in the room. But um when they introduced that brand, it really offended a bunch of the Marriott Bonvoy, like titanium members who thought they were going to be treated in an extra special way at the Marriott Hotel, and then they end up in a very small micro room with a folding chair and an inadequate desk space, and they were frustrated. So I think we have to be careful of that balance between micro segmenting to appeal to a certain demographic. Um, I'll give you another example. W hotels. Anybody design a W hotel or stay in a W hotel or drink in a W hotel? It's aimed at a very narrow demographic and psychographic. And so the ideas in the joyful book or the ideas in this space is that these are universally appealing. Yeah, these are universally appealing ideas. If I asked my mom what she thought of this space, which I did, I showed her pictures, she loved it. Um, or I showed my daughter she loved it, right? So there's yeah, I think part of what the hospitality industry tries to do is appeal to a very wide group and try to have very high guest satisfaction and intent to recommend across the board.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So long way of saying I think designing for different generations is valuable. Um, but our industry is designed to appeal to a very broad group of people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, I love that. I have great. I think that, you know, even just the way that shows up practically too. I I like the Moxie example. I know that, you know, my husband and I recently stayed in a Moxie and kind of had similar, you know, findings and we're we're not even necessarily part of the, you know, um mainstay uh generation that might be a bit offended by that. But I I do think that there's I almost want to connect that back to what you had mentioned about making sure the baseline functional needs are met because I I think that some might argue that, you know, is having all of that all of those amenities accessible to me, you know, part of that baseline function, could we design more strategically and more targeted to different generations through amenities or through services offered, but perhaps not compromise the mainstay like room experience that's you know what the the crucial element of the the design stay is is known for, right? So I think just having those building blocks in place and then being able to sort of sprinkle on top is is sort of the the goal here. So I have, Ron, one last question for you. Oh boy. And then we're going to open it up for everyone drinks.
SPEAKER_05:We're opening it up for drinks.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes, yes. And then yes and then we will roll out our happy hour drinks for everyone. Yes happy hour indeed. So if you could leave uh our our guests and our listeners with one piece of advice from this fantastic book um to take it to their next project what would it be?
SPEAKER_05:Uh thank you AI for generating such a difficult question. You know I think it's just important to remember that we're designing for other people. We're not designing for ourselves and to be empathetic and to consider what are the the design elements that we can incorporate that will lead to higher guest satisfaction and intend to recommend. I think if I asked you to draw a picture of a woman you would draw yourself. You can't help it. If I asked you to write a script it would be in your voice. It's very difficult to take care to design for other people's needs but it's worth it. And the thing about the joyful book is it's finding the commonalities among all of us. This isn't a solution that is more appealing to younger or older or women or men. It doesn't matter these are universal truths. And I think it's important to remember that we have a responsibility and an opportunity to design spaces that make people feel great. But what that means is you have to know who the people are that you're trying to create a desirable kind of experience for. So my advice would be think about what is universally appealing eliminate the things that could be negative triggers focus on the positives. There are it's almost like the magic unlock of forms and colors and shapes and balance and ephemeral and all these things. And if we can all think a little bit more about how to deliver joy in the spaces we design, we're likely to enjoy the experience ourselves while we're designing it and have good outcomes for the guests that experience it later.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah definitely fantastic great um so does anyone have any questions want to open it up to the room either about the booth design or again something specific for Ron any any questions burning questions from the audience that you've been holding in this whole time for 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_05:There are microphones if you've been holding anything and it's burning for 45 minutes um the restrooms are that way.
SPEAKER_03:Yes fair fair hopefully it's the question thank you for your courage and welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01:Yes yes yes um so I'm curious and maybe you touched on this I I had to I arrived a little late I'm curious about how do you use humor and when do you use humor in design?
SPEAKER_05:And and how do you I mean how do you do it in a way that feels like it's not pandering or it's not playing to kind of the lowest common denominator so the question was how come you're so funny Ron and um no the question was how do you incorporate humor and how do you avoid it feeling uh cheap or pandering um and I don't think there's an easy answer to that very difficult question. Thank you uh from the Harvard Business Review. Um I I I think that it probably requires um no I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you an answer uh actually so I just forgot the name of the guy not John Oliver he was another guy that came out of um John Stewart's show incredibly um funny South African Noah yeah yeah uh Trevor Noah Trevor Noah so Trevor Noah thank you so much um Trevor Noah said that your best idea is your third idea your first idea is what comes to mind quickly your second idea is a build on your first and your third is a unique answer and I think if you are able to deliver humor based on a third idea uh then it probably has more thought behind it and probably has a better um longevity yeah I love that answer that's great great anything else anyone else I'll take pop culture for 400 yes oh perfect oh actually okay no I can repeat it Chris it's fine oh okay I was just curious because I'm not hearing music although I know you're trying to talk so you probably don't want to talk everyone we did have it we were gonna sing and it was I shouldn't ask then is music part of this joyful process like Disney was that included yeah so Chris's question was what is the role of of music and audio um and again uh plug for the Azerbaijani family um but the music is almost um it's almost often it's overlooked always and music has the ability to uh change your mood and um I don't know about you but everyone has some music that makes them feel good and uh if you want I'll sing some L Green for you that happens to be my go-to channel um yeah I'm gonna be hanging out with Andrew over there uh when this is over my husband but music is critically important and and you know what's fun is to go into a restaurant and listen to the soundtrack that's playing and think about whether or not that music fits the environment and fits the concept and fits the food and fits the demographic um because absolutely music is part of the overall sensory experience and there is there are sounds that bring joy and there are sounds that bring fear um so yeah absolutely I think soundtrack is critically important right now we're just playing HD Expo Hum uh and it's convincing right now it's very convincing no but we so we actually had as you know part of the playlist I remember coming down here and one of the first things I noticed was we had like a Harry Styles song like music for a sushi restaurant and I was like oh my gosh it's so perfect like it's just perfect for it you know and like the energy of the space was just so invigorated because the playlist was right and you stepped in and it just it felt right for the space.
SPEAKER_03:And so I mean I fully agree with Ron. I think that you know um as a design industry we we focus on visual uh very much and you know but audio I think increasingly is commanding its space in the design world particularly not just from you know what it can do to invigorate the experience but but even what it can do to the nervous system.
SPEAKER_05:You talk about bineural beats and like the opportunity to change um you know human biology um you know you talk about iterative music you talk about generative music you know the Brian Enos of the world that you know again are able to kind of create these sonic experiences that it's designers I think is a I think it's a secret weapon that we're maybe not pulling out as often as we should agree I agree we designed a brand um that uh it's the tempo brand by Hilton if you guys have ever stayed in a tempo um the tempo brand we actually have soundtracks in the room that play along with uh videos that are very slow moving and beautiful art um and the idea is that you would have different playlists and art on the screen in the beginning of the day when you're trying to wake up and be energized versus the end of day which is more calming. So yeah I think we are starting to think more about not just visual cues but audio cues as well.
SPEAKER_03:Definitely great question any other questions probably like one one more perhaps one really good one. Remember like Ron said the third one best not necessarily the best question is the best question.
SPEAKER_05:Okay best question no pressure okay you're gonna have to put your mouth right up next to it in the post-COVID world this is extremely awkward um your color combinations throughout I see a lot of sort of um analogous and monochromatic sort of color combos is that by design for sort of a kind of a gentle viewing or that's a okay so I'm gonna answer your question that had to do with um a gentle design and uh anti monochromatic kind of instead being chromatic um kind of design so it turns out that uh if you read this book you'll realize that um in the evolution of us as human animals um we used to express ourselves very boldly with color and pattern and if you still look at a lot of um cultures that um uh live in remote locations their celebration is often with color and pattern and it's it's bold and beautiful um and in an effort in the I don't know the year but I will tell you uh the idea in an effort to move away from that primitivism we decided that a more sophisticated design solution is one that was more restrained and when you look at examples of refined design and it's all beige and browns right what it's really doing is it's taking a definition of refined that is the contrary to bold and colorful and celebratory.
SPEAKER_03:Well it turns out that the pendulum swung too far and that that's boring and that it isn't actually a signal of sophistication um that you can actually incorporate color in a beautiful way like this is I forgot Claire the color that you said it was peach something peach tone cantaloupe yeah this is a lot of cantaloupe yes um love it uh cantaloupe brings joy that's my my tagline there so so it turns out that incorporation of color actually resonates more with us than beige's and monochromatic I love that yeah and studies have actually shown that you know we are losing color like I actually just saw a study in 2024 that came out that was quite large that globally as a society that we're moving away from color again I assume from that point in time when we assume the sophistication was the gray. I mean if you look at consumer goods and automobiles you know that are increasingly gray and so um yeah the challenge designers is reclaiming color for the good reclaim color come on definitely call pantone yeah call pantone yes 1800 pantone um thank you so much for coming to Ron and I've TED Talk I appreciate Ron thank you so much for your time yeah usually you only get 18 minutes at 10 This is amazing this is fantastic no so again thank you everyone so much for joining us this has been such a fantastic time we encourage you to hang out and and stay with us we have a fantastic happy MR that will be just after this we also have um goodie bags um that we have um posted the the ladies in pink the pink ladies that are at the edges there have some incredible um bags for you uh with a few surprise elements for some of you that will have a surprise and delight element of this fantastic book that you'll go home with. So about 15 of those bags have one of these so um once again Ron, thank you so much. Thank you to the Gettys group for such an incredible design and such an amazing partnership. Really appreciate it. What a beautiful design so again feel free to hang out by the pool and join a comic table on us and um we will see you we'll see you around. Thank you so much. Appreciate it so much to Ron Swidler from the Gettys Group for the fantastic conversation and a special shout out to the design team who made our Kimball hospitality booth a crazy success. This episode is produced by myself and Andrew Reed with original scoring also done by Andrew Reed. This podcast is brought to you by Kimball International thanks for listening