Entangled Things
Entangled Things
Episode 143: Microsoft's Majorana 2 Breakthrough
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In Episode 143, Patrick and Ciprian break down Microsoft's Majorana 2 announcement and what it means for the future of topological quantum computing. The team cover the physics behind the tetron architecture, why switching from aluminum to lead in the nanowire construction matters, and what coherence times north of twenty seconds — and in some cases a full minute — represent for the field. The conversation weighs Microsoft's history of playing close to the vest, the DARPA program backing the approach, and the newly aggressive 2029 commercial timeline. Patrick and Ciprian also disclose their long history as Microsoft partners and VPs, and close with a broader look at where the modality race stands heading into what may be the final stretch of the NISQ era.
Hey Tiffrian, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Hey Patrick. I'm doing well. Looking forward to another episode of Entangle Things.
SPEAKER_01It's just us this time, and there's lots of big news, but we've picked what we think might be uh the biggest news. So um Microsoft has announced the Majorana 2, um, which is still not, they're not shipping a chip, if I understand correctly.
SPEAKER_02Well, part of their road towards um materializing their vision on topological quantum computing, right? Using the uh a phenomenon or a construct that is called the Majorana Zero mode to build significantly more stable qubits using the Majorana virtual particle. And it's interesting because uh it looks like they've made some significant progress since uh the previous announcement.
SPEAKER_01So my understanding from and and I I've read a lot about this, but especially in the first round, is they've taken basically an idea where they can use this Majorana fermion to build a structure, and that structure acts like a quantum circuit, a quantum string kind of, in in the same way that a superconducting qubit is a construct as well. But the big thing here is I heard it described as imagine a, you know the building in um uh Malaysia, the one with the that the two big buildings and they're connected on the trauma stallion Kuala Lumpur, yeah. Exactly. So I picture it like that, the way it was described, where if if one of the legs were taken out, it still could stand. And so that reduces the risk that a an errant gamma particle or some heat or something like that could take out the whole structure. In other words, it introduces a structural fault tolerance to the the actual qubit that makes it more resilient and therefore more almost immune to the noise, because the odds that both those legs are going to get taken out at the same time is near zero and they're far enough apart. Now, is part of the new architecture that they've gotten them further apart because that's where is that where the a thousand times more reliable came from? Or because they say logical, larger topological gap in the information that that that you have shared with me?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the the most important uh, let's say structural change is that they change materials. Um and and it's it's interesting uh just to to remind to our listeners, right? We are as opposed to, for instance, uh photonics, right, where uh we are really talking about uh particles that act as uh qubits, right? In this case, we are talking about what is commonly referred in physics as a virtual particle, which essentially means that's pretty much like the um uh approach with the uh the superconducting qubits, right? It's essentially a structure, it's a physical structure that ends up acting like a qubit. And in this particular case, the thing that acts like a uh acts like a qubit is this comes as a very surprising thing, is the parity of electrons in uh uh what is called a nanowire. Right. So if you have an odd number of electrons, you have one state.
SPEAKER_01If you have a um uh uh uh change it right with plus one or minus one, even even versus odd numbers of you have you have the other state. No, and that's a readable state because of these the effects. Uh there's an a name for that effect, I can't remember what it is off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_02This essentially is is built around what is called a nanowire, which is uh like a super, super, super, super uh uh thin like layer of of material. And what Microsoft said in their announcement that one of the big breakthroughs came from replacing aluminum, which is one of the well-known materials used for superconducting, right? Uh with lead. Really? Yes. Yeah, that's that's one of the uh uh one of the interesting uh uh one of the interesting things. And that resulted in significantly better protection from uh interesting.
SPEAKER_01I mean there's an old old saying from the you know, maybe before the Industrial Revolution, cheap as lead. Because you'd think that they'd go to something quixotic like a rare earth or nimobidium or one of those others that's hard to get. It's good to hear that they're going to cheaper materials from from even though aluminum is pretty cheap, too. So the claims are a thousand times more reliability. And the and the whole promise of this, the whole promise of Microsoft's approach is rather than go down the road that others have gone down, photonics, superconducting qubits, what what really has been showing a lot of promise lately, which is uh neutrali, uh neutral or or ionized atoms, neutral atoms or ion ion uh ion atoms. Um they've decided to go back to something that had more promise for scale, but was a much further back starting gate. And they had that false step back in, I think it was 2018. I know I know it was before we started the podcast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so they've been very playing close to the chest, almost like you know, they're they're afraid to make a mistake, and we understand that. But Microsoft has a reputation for getting shellacked, then going back to the drawing board with their massive Microsoft research organization, and then coming out with something like Internet Explorer. Remember in the in the browser wars, they they were they weren't a they were a no-show, and then they came in and dominated. So I really never count them out, and but I wish they would talk about this stuff more. Do you think, are you seeing any signs that they might start talking about this more now because it was Sacha Nagella that made the announcement, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, yeah. And I well, it's it's understandable um that there is a certain, let's say, uh maybe not fear, but reluctance uh to talking publicly about these these things, especially from some of the some of the backlash, right? Remember, probably out of the companies that are out there trying to build reliable um commercial grade quantum computers, Microsoft is one that faces probably one of the heaviest scrutinies, right, because of the previous um uh let's call them issues, but also because the the physics itself that is involved, right, um has sparked some intense debate um uh uh in the world of physics, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this the skeptical camp is still claiming that there's no definitive proof that it exists. Yes, yes, that it's doing what it's supposed to do.
SPEAKER_02There's an interesting also uh kind of twist here, but before that, I just want to mention, right, it's not necessarily a thousand times more reliable, it's a thousand times longer in terms of preserving state. Right? So essentially they claim that they were able to get to lifetimes of uh north of 20 seconds. Which is a long time in this which is an eternity in in in quantum computing, right? And in some isolated cases, those states were consistent for up to for up to one minute, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I misread that. I it's a thousand times longer than earlier devices and a thousand-fold improvement in stability.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Which which could be read as reliability.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Well, this is actually in itself a very significant achievement because that means that the types of qubits that they are building show at least the potential, right, of being stable uh for way longer than needed to perform meaningful uh uh computation. And I think that's one of the fundamental reasons why Microsoft chose to uh the path of topological quantum computing, because and we've said it many times, right, if it works, and it's still an if, but if it works, right, it works in a very reliable way because it's it's almost like those those virtual particles are built, are engineered basically to be uh um protected from interference uh from the from the outside world.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And that's I I I think that's still the uh let's say the big prize uh in terms of topological quantum computing, right? If you can build a qubit based on uh on the topological approach, then it's very likely that it's gonna be a very stable qubit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the the the another I love analogy. So like if you think about World War II and fighter planes, if if one side said, you know what, we're gonna use propeller planes and we're gonna like mass produce those and we're gonna go all into that, we're not gonna worry about future technologies. And the other side says, well, we're gonna build jets, which no one's ever heard of, and they might not work, and you know, we have to start from square one, and we're gonna take a beating for a number of years while we develop these jets, because we're not gonna put anything into propeller planes. In the end, they're gonna race past everybody. And that's the the expectation or the the concern, I guess. So DARPA, um, the the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Planning Agency, I think, I think I got that name right, um, will make bets. They'll go and coordinate with companies that they think are gonna disrupt the space. And it was very telling that a couple of years ago, Microsoft was one, normally it's small companies and and and university spin-offs that they're talking to. They talk to Microsoft because they they recognize that if this play works, it would take a long time to even catch up with everybody. But if it did, it could race ahead. And that's we're kind of people are starting to declare that the NISC level, the noisy intermediate quantum computing age, is coming to an end. And if that's the case, then you know, 2029, 2030 could be huge. I mean, you you know that Mike uh Google has reined in their Q day prediction to 2029 and said they'll be they'll be you know quantum secure by that time. Now they're they're making quantum processors, so they you know they might know a little bit about what's going on. So it seems like the industry is looking at Microsoft as a dark horse, but it's still early days, and we still, you know, 2029 is still a good ways away. Um when do you think it will be settled that they've either found put lightning in a bottle or they went down the wrong path and it's a it's a coal mine?
SPEAKER_02Well, the fact that that this ball still keeps rolling, right, despite all the setbacks, uh the fact that a giant like Microsoft continues to pour money um and in non-trivial amounts, right? That for me is a telling sign that there is definitely something there.
SPEAKER_01Cool.
SPEAKER_02Because I think Microsoft, like we know the Microsoft from the modern age, right? The Microsoft that um had its stock uh uh growing from the almost fixed price of $30, right, to super high levels. The the modern Microsoft is a very pragmatic company, right? And and we've seen uh write-offs in the amount of of billions and billions of dollars, right? When things were proven that they they just don't work. Think of the phone sada, right? I think that ended up being a very good thing.
SPEAKER_01Well, they don't they don't hold on overly long, they they don't have the sunk cost paranoia where well we spent so much money, we gotta keep going. They don't do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So this this is a sign for me, right? That uh and that there was an interesting, there was a very interesting statement from uh Chatan Dayak, who's the Microsoft Technical Fellow, um, deeply involved, right, in the uh in the quantum research. Was a very interesting statement for for me. Basically, he said our aim is to invent the transistor for the quantum age. Yes, right, yeah. And that's uh uh uh a clear analogy to the way classical computing developed, right? When you've had lots and lots of modalities, right, to build computers, and all of a sudden the very stable and efficient and scalable one named transistor emerged, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, and we started with vacuum tubes. You can't forget that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So there were there were modalities before the transistor.
SPEAKER_02And I I I think the kind of the view, right, and the vision is we're gonna take a very big risk uh in trying to materialize a concept and a technology that would be probably similar to the concept of a transistor from from classical computing, right? Because the other thing that's that's that's interesting with uh the approach that Microsoft has is that if you get, I don't know, two or four or eight qubits working from two or four or eight qubits to a million qubits, it's literally a matter of just linear scaling, right? It's not a problem of now you have too many layers, now you have interference, now you have things like that, right? And and this is the right point to mention something, Patrick, that is, I think also, at least to me, is is is extremely interesting, right? We've talked to a lot of people who are um essentially handling their qubits with tweezers and and with all sorts of things, right? The way the the Microsoft chip works is that the actual handling of of the qubits is done with measurements. And that's that's relatively unique, right? The way you you handle your qubit is actually through through measurements. And this is also one of the areas where the skeptics, uh the skeptics were, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, but you only produce the details about what we call the Z measurements, the X measurements, but you haven't produced details with the Z measurements, because those are like essentially across different axes. So Microsoft still has to prove, has to produce the hard data for that. It is essentially referred to in the paper that they um they announced, but the data still has to be published. So that's very interesting. So we're not going to be able to do that. But long story short, I think the um I think there is some some very significant potential. And the fact that a very pragmatic organization like Modern Microsoft keeps pushing this tells me that despite of the previous setbacks and the criticism and the pushback, right? I think there is there is definitely something there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and we've said that that we may not have one modality to rule them all. This might be a modality that works in certain areas far better than others, and it might man, it might not even work out. When is there a possibility? I mean, uh I don't have inside information, and I don't think you have any inside information. I wonder whether you could use one of these qubits to measure one dimension. They wouldn't be connected, I guess. I I I guess I have questions about how they entangle them, what's that look like, how many they could entangle. Um, but again, they're playing it very close to the vest. I don't I don't know that that data is out there, or if it is, I'm missing it.
SPEAKER_02Well, the the way this the way this thing is uh the way this thing is built, right, um, is they essentially produced a concept that is called a Tetron. That's that's how they that's how they name it, right? And basically think of a Tetron as essentially two of these superconducting nanowires, right? Wires that are are so thin, right, that they're almost like single-dimensional, and they're built of of the superconducting material, which was aluminum, and now it's um and now it's it's it's it's a lead, right? And essentially these two nanowires host at their ends these Majorana Zero modes, which are coming in pairs, right? Um, and the information itself is stored in the um uh in the parity of electrons via these uh um uh these these these these structures, right? Uh which essentially means that you can within a Tetron, right, you can handle either single qubits or or or or two qubits, and you can handle uh things like um um uh uh entanglement, right? Now what they what they say is that the other important advantage of this approach, right, is it essentially supports in a very natural way both digital control and error correction. So the plan is to actually take these tetrons and essentially multiply them um on chips. So going from like one Tetron to a thousand Tetron to a million Tetron is essentially a problem of of replicating uh of replicating them. Um so it's very interesting, right? It's it's uh what was really interesting for me or or to me, right, is the fact that it is uh for the first time that we've heard, um, and again, just we need to take it with a grain of salt, we need to see the proof and everything. It was the first time we've heard of coherence times that are into seconds, right? We were always talking about microseconds, milliseconds, things like that, right? Which by the way, are are are more than enough for for performing quantum computation.
SPEAKER_01But to mind different modalities have different speeds, so but it's the first time we've heard about these these I would call them insanely long coherence times, right?
SPEAKER_02Like 20 seconds as as as I said, is is is essentially an eternity.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I wish I wish we could get I I well, I I guess I'm hoping that they'll there'll be a lot more talking now that they see this as a watershed moment, but I I I think there's a strong chance there isn't, that they stay quiet the next year.
SPEAKER_02Well, the the other interesting thing was to me you mentioned DARPA, right? And um maybe it's worth mentioning that the whole DARPA program. Um I think the the actual name is the um um Defense Advanced Research Projects. Yeah, no, no, but the program that DARPA runs is the the underexplored systems for utility scale quantum computing. That's that's the the the program that it that it runs, right? And um this program has per uh uh participation like from from like some some very heavy names, right? Like the air. Force Research Laboratory, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, right? John Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, and so forth. So there is a bunch of extremely smart people in there that are running the program, right? And Microsoft architecture and designs were repeatedly assessed by this, right? So it's not like, I don't know, five years ago someone was impressed, like, oh my God, you have this great idea, you're gonna build a Maiorana uh topological quantum computer, right? It they are constantly assessed, which is also an indication to me that there is some non-trivial amount of progress happening there.
SPEAKER_01And and Microsoft's prepared, we and we don't talk about this too often, but Microsoft has really prepared an ecosystem for them to be the middleware. So if this works out, then suddenly Microsoft becomes one of the only vendors that's in the middle with their own stack because they got Q Sharp, they've got Azure, they've got hosted quantum already. They've they you can basically use Q Sharp to address a D-Wave system and other systems. I think Regetti's up there as well. Um and so they they've got a lot of that. Right. So they've got a lot of that covered, and it would be easy for them to just shove their system into the same model. So they've got a a big, they've got a really good play of the middleware. Now, when when that first happened, I think I remember saying to you, I think that was a hedge to some extent. It makes sense to do if they're going to be successful, but even if they're not successful with their own modality, it still lets them play in the game and be a middleware broker and a big one, an important one. They got the cloud, they got the language and the tooling. To have the actual an actual modality of their own to host, that would be a big deal. Do you expect them to only make it available through Azure? Or would they, you think, sell machines as well eventually? I think that it's an impossible question to answer. I'm just calling for speculation.
SPEAKER_02I think everything's on the table, but um remember, topological quantum computing is still a modality that requires uh pretty low temperatures.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so this is a modality of building stuff, right? It's uh that still requires dilution refrigerators and and stuff. So it will require pretty heavy gear.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, I'm not thinking they're gonna sell it on the Microsoft store, but IBM selling their chip and they require the same. Is it the same, it's the same temperature range, isn't it? It's millikelvin, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02I yeah, it's it's low. It's very it's very low. So and and I think what they actually have as a strategy is to at the end of the day offer the business service, let's call it like that, right? Where it doesn't really matter what is the underlying hardware. Um their plan is to essentially offer the output at the other end, which is the capability of performing classes of computations that are uh, let's say, geared towards very practical problems, whether it's about material science or or or machine learning or or or things like things like that, right? So um I would be, I'm not ruling it out, but I would be surprised to see Microsoft uh selling um quantum computing machines, uh whatever the packaging would be, because I think that based on what they build, the kind of the vertical integration, right, from the uh uh lower layer, which is the actual hardware, all the way to the programming languages, the SDK, right? Um I think it suits them better to do it this way. And then remember, one of the things that they are also pioneering, which doesn't get a lot of traction, but I think it will become one of the very important aspects is hybrid. Uh and we've covered this many, many times, right? Um I certainly believe that there will be no pure quantum computer or quantum computing solution out there, because even the um, let's say ubiquitous short discussion that actually requires an efficient combination of classical computing and quantum computing. And owning the stack, right, and being one of the big players in classical computing, I think it's it's gonna provide a significant, uh a significant advantage, right? Now um the other thing that I believe we have to mention, right, also is um uh that this is still right, just to keep things real, it's a major announcement, uh but this does not announce essentially a commercially useful quantum, right? So um they proposed the prototype, right? They they provided some very interesting experimental results, uh, which again still have to be reviewed, um, and we're hopefully not gonna um uh end up with another 2018 um um moments, right? But I think it's it's very encouraging. It's also encouraging the fact that they kind of changed the the future estimates previously they were put in the 2030s, and now at this uh uh uh conference that they made the announcement, they said that it's uh uh likely that a commercial version could be um available as early as 2029.
SPEAKER_01And that's this was a build, I believe, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was the Microsoft Build Conference, which uh was early June.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so I I believe that this is also significant because publicly announcing and setting this expectation um is a bit different from many other players which are still providing the horizon of the 2030s in terms of of this of these machines. So um overall, I think this is very exciting news. I think it's positive. Um and um what what really what I really like about this is that uh we if you think about the last 12 months and we've discussed with some remarkable people, we've discussed with with with some some some remarkable um companies out there, right? Is that we are seeing significant improvement across multiple modalities. So it's not really that we have one modality that it's having a breakthrough, right? We have seen significant uh significant improvement across the the board, and um that gives me uh uh let's say I am much more optimistic than I was 12 months ago.
SPEAKER_01A warm fuzzy, yeah.
SPEAKER_02With yeah, with respect to we're still not there, that's that's extremely um um important to say, right? But um I I I think it's it's it's significantly we have a significantly better uh let's say uh prediction right now uh in terms of of where things are it's gonna be exciting times to come.
SPEAKER_01Um so you know you and I have a long history with Microsoft. We should just definitely disclose that. You I was uh involved in their partner program and took a lot of their certifications and had NDAs for many years, 20 20 plus years. Um now I'm I'm uh one of their MVPs, as are you, and you participate also as a Microsoft regional director, which I left a few years ago. So it's not we're not like outsiders strictly, so we should disclose that a little bit. But we also aren't talking to the quantum team on a regular basis, or at least I'm not. Um and so it it kind of gives us the freedom to talk about this without stepping on anything secret. I don't have any deep, dark secrets, but I'd like to. I'd like to know more about what's going on here. So hopefully we we have to just wait for everybody else. I think the 2029 announcement is aggressive, but I'm very hopeful that that means that they they figured it out and they've got their steam and they're they're gonna run with it. Um and let the let the doubters dig themselves a hole. I hope that works out. I'm sure there's others in the industry that are hoping that it's all you know just vaporware. Uh, but I guess time will tell. Uh what are other dark horses? I I I think I think um neutral ions was a bit of a dark horse five years ago when we started this podcast. We weren't talking about them. We were talking about photonics and we were talking about um superconducting qubits because of Google, uh, because of um uh IBM. Yeah, I consider them to be somebody that's kind of come out of the wings. Is there any other uh modalities you're kind of keeping an eye on?
SPEAKER_02Or no, I think um I think we're seeing these um modalities maturing, right? Um neutral atoms, trapped ions, the superconducting stuff, the photonics, right? Um uh as well as the the topological, we are seeing improvements across the board, right? And I think rather than having some obscure thing as being the dark horse, I think there are aspects of these modalities, Patrick, that are we can call them like the dark horse. Like if you ask me, right, the the dark horse of photonics is or even to some extent neutral atoms is room temperature. Yes, right? It's is the fact that they don't require those insane technologies, right, to keep them. Uh on the other hand, I think the dark horse of topological quantum computing is the inner instability, which looks like it's been it's been proven. So they all have, let's say, um uh strong points, uh, but also significant weaknesses. Yeah. Um and and think it's gonna be a matter of of what is the speed at which those, let's say, um, weaknesses can be addressed um moving moving forward.
SPEAKER_01The bet would be on the ones that whose weakness is more in the rearview mirror and less in the front windshield.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the ones that can handle better error correction.
SPEAKER_01I think you were that's the promise.
SPEAKER_02I I think you said a very important thing at the beginning of this discussion, which is hey, uh we are really starting to see the end of the tunnel in terms of addressing the problem of error correction. I think whoever is capable of addressing it in a more efficient way, faster or sooner, right, that's gonna be. But I would also want to say at this point that I am starting to almost be like a hundred percent believer in a multi-modality featuring like photonics is definitely gonna be a part of the networking in quantum computing. I I think this is where the the history path will diverge from classical to quantum. I think at this point, based on what we've seen in the past 12 months and what we're seeing now, I think there is very likely that the world of quantum computing is gonna be shared.
SPEAKER_01Are you are you saying you don't have any vacuum tube devices on your desk right now? Um well, not really I use on a regular basis. Don't mat, don't count.
SPEAKER_02On a regular basis. I would dare to say almost, not almost, all my devices are transistor based.
SPEAKER_01Of course. Yeah, I was making I was telling you, G.
SPEAKER_02So I I I I'm starting to be uh uh uh again, uh a firm believer in multimodality because yeah, it looks like it's you have the uh uh also, right? You mentioned at some points it's a horse race. It's pretty much like in horse racing, right? There is one neck in front, and then there's another neck in front, and they're changing again. Um and I I think based on the innovation and the investment that it's being made.
SPEAKER_01Well, and we've also seen that the the multimodality is a is an easy bet now when you think about sensing, because like the the we talked to that guy uh a while back about diamond vacancies, and and the sensors aren't all gonna go down one road. So I I think we're it's still gonna be a bit of a wild west west for these modalities and what they are what their niches are, what does what which thing better. Uh and so yeah, I think it'll be a much more varied.
SPEAKER_02And remember, remember, Patrick, one of the things that are still not solved, and I think it's gonna be the next big thing after we have uh uh relatively stable computers is still essentially embedding problems, real-world problems, into this paradigm of computing. And I I this is an area where I don't feel we've made a lot of progress.
SPEAKER_01I think AI is waiting in the wings to solve this problem, though.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I also think that different modalities will be suitable for different classes of problems.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there will be certain types of problems that will be easier to understand.
SPEAKER_01D-Wave showed that. D-Wave made it made that clear and already gave us that example. Although they're starting to dabble in um in universal gate quantum computers as well, because the writing's on the wall. If we get uh the things they're doing well now, and again, it they made a conscious play to say we're gonna go down this path, which is a little more short-lived, but we can get we can actually get running annual recurring revenue sooner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I think it's um uh I think D-Wave was a pioneer, it's still a pioneer, right? Um, but the fact that we haven't seen a lot of of other um startups or companies going towards the adiabatic quantum computing, right? That also tells me a story. Um which which is there are certain types of problems that can be solved there, but it it it it certainly looks like that um gate-based quantum computing, right, is is the um is the area where where these things are are probably the most uh uh the most promising. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's uh something to watch. Overall, it's we're living again some very interesting times. And to my cursed. And again, this is where history also parts ways is and you've explained this multiple times, right? Uh a quantum winter is still nowhere to be seen. And and that's very likely because of the security implications, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, agree.
SPEAKER_02And and the cryptography. And it it certainly looks like the past 12 months are actually uh adding some tailwind to to these companies, right? And they they seem to be moving forward with with uh a lot of innovation. So I don't see at least in the next maybe 24 to 36 months um any um situation developing where um we could see uh slowing down in in this particular area. So it's a very exciting time to uh to be connected to this field for sure.
SPEAKER_01I agree, and we'll watch it closely, and I think that's I think I think we're done for today. Out of time.
SPEAKER_02I mean, we could talk for a three for another couple of hours, but we have to stop somewhere.
SPEAKER_01So I think this is a we've proven that to the point we started a podcast. So uh but I think we should leave it there, and we'll see everybody the next time.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Bye, man.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, everyone. Bye. Bye.
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