Carson's formula for success lies in his trust in instincts and ability to stay focused, a skill he attributes to being a student of the game. He candidly shares his experiences as a co-angler in the early 2000s and how he has continually made himself better in all aspects of the sport.
We round off the episode by exploring the impact of philosophical readings on Carson's life and approach to fishing. Get ready to be inspired as he reveals how books like 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson have helped him maintain productivity and achieve a higher understanding. Carson's approach to fishing, the strategies he employs, and the mindset he adopts make this episode a must-listen for anyone with a passion for angling.
Carson's formula for success lies in his trust in instincts and ability to stay focused, a skill he attributes to being a student of the game. He candidly shares his experiences as a co-angler in the early 2000s and how he has continually made himself better in all aspects of the sport.
We round off the episode by exploring the impact of philosophical readings on Carson's life and approach to fishing. Get ready to be inspired as he reveals how books like 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson have helped him maintain productivity and achieve a higher understanding. Carson's approach to fishing, the strategies he employs, and the mindset he adopts make this episode a must-listen for anyone with a passion for angling.
What's going on? Everyone coming back with another episode of the Bass Central fishing talk show. We have Keith Carson on today phenomena angler, phenomenal guy and dude. I can't wait to discuss a couple topics that we have for today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I'm excited, I'm ready to go, you know, ready to dive into some some interesting stuff with you and go over some, you know, whatever we can. Hey, wherever we talk about fishing, you know, life whatever, whatever it is yeah, maybe a little bit of golf. To yeah, it's golf in New York. Yeah, dude, that was fun. Yeah, I like playing up north the grounds, nice and hard. You know, here in Florida we got the soft sand. It's a pain.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I've started golfing more, though because you know the season is coming to an end. I just have two NPFLs left. So, yeah, I go for seven, eight months I don't really hit a golf ball at all and then I'll start playing a lot, you know, three times a week or so in the off season. So Right.
Speaker 1:so do you slow down going fishing quite a bit and like fishing local stuff, or do you still do that, just mixing it all?
Speaker 2:No, I still fish. I don't fish anything local, really just fun fish. You know four hours here or there, fish with family and stuff like that and I don't do the long, long days. You know when I'm local, I'll just go for like four hours, something, five hours.
Speaker 1:Right, just keep your feeling new fun fishing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool. Well, I've a I don't know I've golfed more this year than I have in a long time and it kind of started when me and you went in June and it's just like it's like fishing, like it's kind of addicting, like you know, because you start to play good and you're like, okay, well, I want to like focus and try to get better and better and you know you hit like one shot that that really makes you like engaged or you know, you know how it is.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, man, when I started golfing, yeah, I was terrible. So my dad, he's golfed two, three days a week for my entire life and he always wanted me to get into it. But as a kid I just loved fishing. And I think I kind of let him down because he was like you know, you could do whatever you want with golf and I was like I want to, I want to fish, you know. And then in the last three years I started playing like more seriously and actually practicing.
Speaker 2:You know, like anyone, when you first started shoot 110, 115 around and started getting better and better and better, and then, as I started to actually get shots, like I could hit a draw, I could hit a fade, I can hit low shots, high shots, then you can manage the course, you know, and it's a lot like fishing in that aspect, where there's a lot of strategy to the golf course, you know, and where they put sand traps and you know high spots and you want to place your ball to set yourself up for the next shot. And you know fishing is the same way where the decisions that you make you know there's times like, let's say, you have a window where maybe you're going to get a big bite. Let's say, whatever. We'll throw a scenario out there maybe you're getting big top water bites late in the day and so you're going to, you're going to do everything you can in the morning to somehow get a good bite and catch a limit and get yourself ready so when you get that one or two big bites before way in, you can capitalize on it.
Speaker 2:You know, and go in with a big bag and golf's the same thing. It's just, it's all strategy and even though you know golf is on land and fishing is on water, it's still, even in offseason. I mean, it's still strategy and still pushing myself to a competitive, competitive mindset and pushing myself to my limits and man, it really, it really is a lot like fishing as far as the mindset goes right and I think that I've thought about this before is how you can relate, like the technical details and the attention to detail that you have to have in golf to hitting a consistent shot.
Speaker 1:And I can, I think I can relate that to like finesse fishing and just fishing in general, of trying to put as many fish in the boat as you can. You know, because, like in the finesse fishing game, for me it's a lot of attention to detail, it's a lot of. I need to make every fish count, just like you have to make every shot count with golf, and that's something I noticed with you is like your short game is what excels, it seems like, and it's the detail, yeah, and you practice them for every every shot, like you know focus really hard. So, yeah, I feel like I can relate that oh for sure you know.
Speaker 2:I mean it's it's all about how well you can focus on what your task at hand is. And so in golf, same thing you need full focus on the shot that you're trying to play. And with fishing, it's the same thing whether you're fishing shallow and you're trying to cast your bait in a precise location, you know whether you're skipping a frog under the dock or you know. Or if you're offshore, using forward sonar, you know, you need to know. Okay, this fish is, you know what, 62 feet away and 20 feet deep, and how do you want to present your bait to it. And you got to present it precisely to entice that fish to eat. And you need, you know, you need 100% of your focus and to capitalize on those moments. And and you know, that's one of the things that, with golf, where I can practice that mindset, you know, during the offseason, right, yeah, so I think I was listening to one of the podcasts that we were just talking about.
Speaker 1:That she did recently. You were talking about how you start to play leagues or tournaments this time of year too yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I started playing last year for the first time ever started I played tournament golf. It's a local place. It's a local, local golf club here in de bairie. There's like about I think they average about 40, 42 guys or so. It's a Sunday league and you know it's competitive.
Speaker 2:You know there's some good players out there and then there's some some worse players and stuff too, but you know it's it really helped get me, get me ready for fishing. You know, just to be in competition, you know and the great thing about competition is the results don't lie. You know you, you go out, you do the best you can and whatever score I shoot, you know that's what you come in with at the end of the day. And if there's a part of your game that you're struggling in, you know that's something you need to practice the next week prior to the tournament. You know they have tournaments every Sunday, so I guess yeah so what's your best?
Speaker 1:finish one of those second place second day, so you get there so hoping for win this season.
Speaker 2:Then yeah, yeah, I hope so. I've started practicing. So last year I was striking the ball really well and then for some reason, I've been practicing for like three weeks and I just can't quite get it. I'm still scoring. Okay, I played last week. I shot at 80, it was okay, but but yeah, I'm just not quite striking it. So I'll keep practicing.
Speaker 1:No, he's not bad at all. And something else too is like and I noticed this from college fishing and because we'd fish 15-18 tournaments a year and the the amount of effort that you can put in or I guess it's it's more so the smallest differences can make the difference between getting fifth place or first place, even to 50th place, like it's it's one bite, it's a five minute window, it's, you know, retie. One rod like you can come down to such a minor thing and I feel like also can relate that to golf like if you're hitting one club terrible, like you know, if you're hitting everything else good, and then it's just one club you cannot hit, that day, it's the same thing. Like you could get a top five or you could, you know, be middle of the pack because of that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, 100%, and you know it's. It's funny because, like with fishing, with fishing it really comes down to those little decisions and you know, all the times throughout the years, I look back and somehow I've been lucky enough to make the right decisions at. You know, often I can make the right decisions when I need to, and how it happens I don't know. You know exactly. But the main thing is is you know, I trust my instincts over anything over. Trust your instincts over what other people say or what other people are doing. You know you got to play your game and that's also a big part of the golf you know, of how I play. Golf is you all play against other guys who are maybe they're better than me and they are excellent at putting, and I'm not the best putter but I'm excellent at chipping, you know. And I can hit my irons really well. I'm a good iron player and you play your game, you know.
Speaker 2:And so right you the same same thing with fishing. One guy you know you'll hear some doc talk and one guy will be saying you know, oh, they're biting this or that. You know, and if it's not really your game, you know, I wouldn't just throw it off yeah, don't even worry about it, you play your game, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's doc. Talk just never does anything for anybody, it just throws. It just throws you off and sends you in the wrong direction and waste, waste time really. That's all.
Speaker 2:I see this, it really does. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1:but sometimes it's like. It's like it gives you some hope. You know like, if you're having a rough practice, rough day, and you hear something new, you're like, okay, that might be it.
Speaker 1:But you know like, then you go try it and you're like, man, those guys were just lying about it you know, that wasn't that are like you have to have a certain amount of detail for things to be true, like if you, if you leave out half of the picture and you're telling someone hey, I caught him doing this, but they left out the major details, like you know right is in your way off track right.
Speaker 2:You're just on a wild goose chase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so First of all I didn't say but congrats on making the BP team and I know that's a huge goal of yours and Obviously, where any of us want to be. So congrats on that.
Speaker 2:Thanks, man. Yeah, I'm thrilled to be going there and you know, the schedule came out. It looks good. I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, it does look good.
Speaker 2:A lot of places I haven't been, or few places. Yeah, I've never been to Toledo, ben, I haven't been to. Oh, what's the? What's the one? It's below the, below the James, I just forgot the name of it, but I haven't been there either.
Speaker 1:So you know, looking forward to some new lakes and, hopefully, yeah, yeah, I see a new water sometimes, sometimes really good, cuz that seems like a lot of guys that like wind tournaments it's. It's either they've been there 20 times or they haven't been there before, so they can kind of see it. Yeah, you know new eyes.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I'm with you so a Lot of guys like you've been on a couple podcasts talking about this season and you've had a phenomenal season, but I want to talk about more so, the accumulation that got you to having a great season, because something. So me and you did a pure fishing event. It was for Finwick rods at O'Nita, so I was the first time we like got to met, hanging out a little bit, and one of the things that you said during that week that really like Got my attention I remembered it was you saying that you pick one thing a year that you like work on. Like yeah, that's your, yeah, well, you anyway. And you said that every now and then you'll have one idea that like completely Propels your fishing game, and I think the one that you specifically mentioned was Bailing.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, something's not working, bailing out, but like when did you start doing that? And like what are some of the years that? Like what were the goals of some of the years and like how much did they help you besides that one?
Speaker 2:I started doing this about 10 years ago. I started doing this around 2012 or so and you know I. So at the time I was fishing local stuff. I, you know I was working and fishing local stuff. I was fishing BFLs, I was fishing ABAs and I I had always had a hard time. So, like you know, so you got a tournament. Before the tournament, you're out practicing and you find let's see, find a good group of fish or something, in the middle of the tournament. It's not happening and I used to just try to, you know, get them the bite and try different ways, try something else. I know the fish are there and then at the end of the day, I'd have nothing you know, all the time it's got come in 10 pounds.
Speaker 2:I'm like man, you know, I could have caught 20 pounds here yesterday and and Something clicked. So that that year, in 2012, I struggled with that a lot and I and I knew, you know, I was able to locate fish in practice but couldn't always execute. One tournament will go great, I'd win, or top five, and next one I get last place, you know. And so in 2013, I knew I recognized in 2012 that my weakest part of my game was not bailing, and so in 2013, heading into the year, I decided I'm gonna work on on bailing and trusting, trusting the bail, and my main, my main philosophy for that year that I told myself was I Might not catch anything where I'm going, because when you bail, you're often going to areas that you didn't practice and you're trying new things, and so I would tell myself I might not catch anything where I'm going, but I'm definitely not going to catch anything if I stay where I'm at. You got a bail and trust your trust, whatever Decisions are. So then the next year, 2013, I got second in points and then in 2014, I won angler the year for Florida Central Division Out of like 120 boats, and that was all just because of bailing. That was it, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, of course You're always working on fishing techniques and refining your skills and stuff, but that was really when I turned a corner and I learned that decision-making is what this game is really all about. You know, I think that the majority of us as fishermen are Probably we're all probably pretty good at casting and and stuff. Some are better than others that skip casting and particular trick, trick casting and stuff like that. But you know, I wouldn't say I have a huge advantage over anyone in that, in that category. But when it came to the decision-making, that was when it when I would excel and that Bailing was huge that year. Now I still practice that to this day and that's. I've carried that with me this year. Same thing. I mean, I gosh the places that I thought I would catch fish on the MLF invitations this year. I Didn't catch fishing a lot of them, you know.
Speaker 2:You practice and you go and I think all this is gonna be great and it just doesn't work. And now I've gotten so used to bailing that it's just a part of the game. It's like, oh, they're not here, let's go and. And I'm getting more and more comfortable with it. And so you know, and the more comfortable that that you can get with that, the better you're gonna be. It's just, it really pushes you to a new level.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's that's something that I noticed like in any high level of tournament fishing, is you have those guys that they go catch some fish or something's not working, and their mindset is I'm gonna go practice today, and that's something that Jacob Wheeler talks about all the time. He's really good at it.
Speaker 1:It's just finding new fish on the fly, but it's like I'm practicing every day that I'm fishing and I have the same problem as you before and now that you talked about this, I know that that's something I need to get better at, because I'll sit down in area, be like I know there's fish here, I just need to catch them, you know. But a lot of times it seems like in practice it's better than the tournament, because you're hitting those fish for the first time, first time this year baits or if someone has fished them, maybe they didn't fish it the same way as you. So, like in the tournament, when you are bailing and and you're going to a new area or maybe Even a hundred yards away from you know the stretch that you thought was gonna be good, and then you just move down a little bit, whatever, like those fish are seeing your presentation for the first time. So I think that's right, like a bigger reason why you know, do you agree?
Speaker 2:Oh, hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. The best Tournaments I've ever had are tournaments where I find the fish in the tournament and I learn it as the tournament progresses right. And that's always the best tournaments ever I can think of. Anytime I've won anything or done really well. You know even Lake of those arcs, same thing, you know. Just I had found some fish and then my way to win up as the tournament went on, you know I caught more and more, just started every day.
Speaker 2:I'm okay, starting to figure something out, and yeah, those are just the best ones.
Speaker 1:I agree completely, you figure out like so, like the first year of NPFL. You won right, patman right. Was that the first year 2021? Yeah, yeah, so yeah so in that tournament is that kind of how it went down?
Speaker 2:Same exact thing yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so day, one, day one, I fished an area, did, well, I had 25 pounds, and then, yes, and then, and then so the wind shifted. So I was fishing this island. It was a little island In the right Patman there and and it was on the north side of the lake. Well, the wind shifted out of the south day too, and I knew I told myself the night before is, looking at the weather, I was like, well, that island is gonna be beat and I'm just gonna run to the south side and really didn't know where to go. And you know, I mean I had some ideas of where I would fish and stuff went to the south side and just started fishing new water and Ended up catching like maybe 22 or 23 pounds. And it was funny because I came in the way in that second day and they're like Keith, they're like you know, all the guys who are in that in that basic area, we're like you didn't go to the island because they all saw me there a day before. I was like no man.
Speaker 2:The winds shifted and they're like you didn't even try it. I was like no, I was like I was gonna do something different and then, you know, ended up catching them and it's those decisions, you know, and that's goes back to bailing. I think you know, each year I picked my weakest part of my game and I work on it, you know, as best as I can. And in this year my weakest part of my game is forward-facing sonar. So I've been, I've been working on that. I go out to the Harris chain in Florida. It's difficult because it's, you know, it's more grass, it's just 10 12 foot.
Speaker 2:Right, right, so it's not as, yeah, I'd love to just go to vacation somewhere, you know, you know some forward-facing sonar, like somewhere for two weeks and really yeah, yeah, when near is probably a close one, that would be really good. Yeah, yeah, that's seven hours from my house.
Speaker 1:So I'm not still there in October. Yeah, oh, dude, yeah, on the way to Okeechobee, our first tournament this year and invitationals. I stopped there for one day, me and Drew, and we had 2488 on our best five. That's just crazy. Yeah, and they're all just floating over the middle of the like Curry channels, so geez wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fun. It's fun to do that, but yeah, so what are? Like some of the other, like you have any other? I guess Things that you worked on that had also had a big impact on your game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean. So bailing was a big one. And then, well, there's a lot of stuff I worked on. One of the things that I work on a lot is how, as how I see the water, and so each of us, you know we get in our boat for practice and the way the water lays out to you and what you see, you know we each see it differently. We're all on the same body of water and we're looking for different things and we read the water differently, and so I try to be really open-minded.
Speaker 2:And One of the main things I've been working on is is, throughout practice, I'm trying to have a, I'm trying to have a broad view, and one of the ways I guess I think about it is I think of having like a camera, like there's a camera, you know you can zoom in on something and you can zoom out for a wide angle. And throughout practice, I try to stay zoomed out. You know it's, it's, it's. I'm not, I'm not precise on anything that I'm looking for. Necessarily, everything's fair game and and I'm open to anything that can come into play.
Speaker 2:And as practice progresses, that zoom slowly starts to close in and Hopefully, by the tournament, I'm really zoomed in. Or another way is saying is dialed it? You know you can get dialed, but if I'm not dialed for the tournament I still try to have that somewhat zoomed out. Focus to where you know being in an open mindset. One of the things that's killed me in tournaments before is having a closed mindset and, just you know, just saying, just just wanting to do something my way, or forcing something to happen when it's just not happening right, I was saying, saying the water is like 62 degrees, and you're like, okay, I am bed fishing this week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not doing that.
Speaker 2:Right, hey, right, yeah, yeah, they're not not up yet, or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. So yeah, definitely work on that mindset how I see the water and how it lays out to me and you know, just to try to make the right decisions so.
Speaker 1:So in relating that to like, like you're practicing so will you like go fish different parts of the lake and See, like where you get the most bites, kind of just what stage they're in, and then, as the tournament kind of comes along, you try to really dial in Exactly like where they're at, or like Certain stretches or stuff like that. Like are you trying to find fish in a gym to have a general idea, and then, like you said, like bailing, almost like to where you just get to run new water I, the tournament goes on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So that is what I do throughout practice I'm trying to find fish in general areas and not get too dialed in on anything and just try to have an idea of where they're at and where they might be going to. You know, I'm always looking at the weather forecast. What's the weather going to do? What's the weather today, on a day of practice, and how's the weather going to be in the tournament? Will it be similar Things like that?
Speaker 2:And just trying to find fish in a general area and then go back and dial it in the tournament. You know, and that's part of that having that open mindset, because in times I know that when I've had practice where I feel like I'm really dialed in practice, I sometimes have terrible tournaments because I'm catching them one particular way and I'll stick to that particular way too long. You know, when really all I had to do was maybe back off and pick up a finesse worm instead of a frog and or power fishing or something. So by just finding fish in a general area and then go in the tournament and just fish, you know, and just have a couple rods rigged up and just fish and see, you know, and you know, let the lake reveal itself to you. It'll tell you what to do if you you know, if you let it and don't force it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know what you mean too, because I've had a lot of tournaments where it's like, okay, I got this school and there's no way that I'm not gonna catch 20 pounds off of. And then you go there in the tournament and you get, like you know, a couple pound and a halfers to bite and you're like I know they're sitting there, how can I not catch these fish? You know, but the longer you sit there, like you said, you're just killing yourself. And like even Kevin Van Dam at Saginaw Bay, he was in Walfau Bay catching fish on all that offshore grass and on the final day so he had a really big bag on the championship day number one, then day number two, he was fishing like where his large mouth providing and he was like I know I could sit here and try to catch some more fish, but he's like that would be losing. I would be accepting a loss if I stay here Like I gotta go try something else and see if I can make something happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly, exactly, yeah he knew that if he stayed there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't gonna happen, right, even if you can call up a little bit here and there like, yeah, I know what you mean, but it's such a hard thing to do especially, I think, with life scope now because people can see all these fish down there and they're like man, if I could just give them the bite, you know, and they sit there and rotate baits and, you know, try to weigh it out, and I do see that sometimes catch fish, because they'll say, oh, I sat on a spot all day and they bit for 30 minutes and I got 15 pounds or whatever. But more times than not it seems like it's a bust. You know you have to find fish that are active, because there's always fish active on a lake somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, 100%. There always somewhere you could find a school that's active and just crush them, you know, and just finding that school is, yeah, it's so hard to do at times but if you do, man, and you get on it, you know it's game over.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's the crazy days. Like you had 25 pounds at right, patman, I mean that's kind of deal that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Sometimes it just happens. You know it's like crazy. You get out there and you don't know what to expect or what's going to happen and next thing, you know, you know you got a big bag. It just you know, and I noticed too a lot of times for me I get big bites like back to back. That happens a lot. I get one and then I'll get another one quickly. You know, it's like they're. It's like they're traveling in packs, like the larger fish.
Speaker 1:So is it, would you say it's more of making almost the same cast, or maybe in the same 30, 50 yard stretch.
Speaker 2:A lot of times it's the same cast, like there's, they're paired up even when they're not spawning. It could be middle of summer, it happens a lot Same cast but but yeah, a lot. But you know I wouldn't say it's 100% of the time. It's 50, 50 maybe same cast and then other times it's just fishing. You know and you'll, you know it's like you go for it. You know those times like you fish 500 yards you don't get a bite, then you get one and then five casts later down, you know, 20 yards down, you get another big one. It's like man, what was the difference in the bank there? You know, you look left and right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like no difference, they're just there.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's. That's crazy too, because it could be like. You know, the bottom goes from like clay to sand and you, you couldn't even see it, you know, or you wouldn't even be able to see it, on electronics maybe but you know, those fish just lay in the bottom right there, and you would never know until you caught them.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it's, it's funny.
Speaker 1:So I was looking through some of your profiles and it seems like you fished as a co-angler a lot in the early 2000s like well, it was a 2006, 2008 in that timeframe yeah, yeah, I fished co-angler a ton, you know, I saw it out. But you fished the pro circuit and the opens. Did you do both of them?
Speaker 2:I fished the opens as a co-angler and then I fished the pro circuit as a co-angler it did that and fish BFLs as co-angler, abas, all that stuff. You know, I was a kid, I just I had a little 12 foot John boat with a eight horsepower on it. So I so John and I used to fish, uh John Cox, and we used to fish, uh John boat club tournaments together as kids, you know, local, you know, and then we'd fish co-angler and whatnot. And then John had a better boat than me so he started fishing the pro side, a lot a boat or side, you know, a lot sooner.
Speaker 1:Right, you still travel together with those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we traveled together, practiced together. I'd fish co-angler, He'd fish boat or side, yeah, so I enjoyed it a lot. I, I, actually I really liked fishing co-angler. You know a lot of people hate it. I loved it. I'd show up with three rods and a backpack and every time every boater I had was like man, this is awesome. They're like the guy I had, you know, yesterday or last tournament. You know you'd have two duffel bags and 12 rods 15 rod.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I had to just bring a couple of rods and a backpack and if I, you know, if there was a bait I didn't have, I'd always ask him hey, can I have one? In most of the time they would you know. Or or sometimes they say, let me catch a limit and I'll give you something. I said, all right, you know, but yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1:So did you learn like a ton of things that got you propelled into being like that, I guess from 2013 to now? I mean, did a lot of what you learned from those guys help propel you to that?
Speaker 2:Oh, 100% yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I learned a lot and then I I taught John a lot too, cause grown up in Florida we fish shallow and also grown up in that time. You know this was pre sonar net. We didn't even have side scan. Then everything was too too D, you know. So it was all shallow all the time. And when we started fishing opens and stuff, as as co-anglers, I remember my first bass master open in the Northern division. I drew Derek remits and he doesn't fish with us anymore but he was a great, great fisherman Fish the bass master elites for a while. One is first, first one ever fish. He was a really good fisherman, good, good offshore fisherman. So I draw him on Lake Champlain and I didn't know him, you know and you know, met him and we run out there and we're in the tournament.
Speaker 2:You know, he teaches me how to try, how to tie on a drop shot, how to tie the polymer knot and to leave the tag end and you loop it back through the tops or the hooks upright. He taught me everything in the middle of the tournament and we caught. I think we caught over a hundred fish that day.
Speaker 1:It was so much fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was unreal and I was hooked, you know, and I had fished Kentucky Lake offshore with as a co-angler. I fished so many lakes and really learned a lot and, you know, kind of helped John with the offshore. You know doing fishing offshore a little bit but I'm more likely to fish offshore than John is because of my co-angler days. You know, I've seen it. I've seen what it's like when, you know, my boat or a pro would pull up to a school of fish in Kentucky Lake and it's fire and it's like cast after cast after cast.
Speaker 1:You're like man. I got to learn how to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, 100% yeah. So yeah, I mean it helped a lot, you know. And then in 13, I just fished. I fished nothing but boat or a pro. Since then, right for 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, because and the reason I asked that is because it seems like now like it's either you have to fish as a co-angler to get learn those skills and learn from different people, or fish in college, because they're starting to be a lot more college guys that make it up there to get that experience. But it's like one of one of two ways. I mean, almost everybody fishes as a co-angler. There's like it seems like there's very few professionals who didn't at one point fish as a co-angler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:And like and like. I heard Justin Lucas not too long ago talking about it and he said that's whenever he really learned, like, attention to detail. Because, like, if the if his boat or would like be getting bites on something or maybe miss a couple bites, he would start changing up all kinds of stuff and, you know, like catch those fish behind people and he usually, like, would beat his boat or because of that. So like it seems like everybody had that path.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right. You know, I know Brian thrifted he was a great co-angler and you know I learned so much and one of the big things I learned was I watch where my pro would make every single cast and I would never cast where he did, unless unless, like you know, I thought I saw something move or whatever and then I'd throw in there, but not usually, you know. So I'm casting everywhere he isn't. And man, just, you know, you pick up so much fish that way, so many, and you also learn where the bites come from. And then so you learn where his bites come from, you know if he's targeting like a high percentage areas, points and things like that, and then you learn where you can pick up bites in between. So now fishing is a professional. I can easily target high percentage areas and then I know which casts to make in the lower percentage areas that might produce a bite. So I'm getting to the point where I'm not wasting any casts at all and I mean that's drastically changed the way I fish.
Speaker 1:You know, after fishing co-angler for many years, Right, I think that game is a lot different now because you know you have guys that are just offshore, they're out of reach of the bank, and so I think it might be more so like you watch your pro up there, throw it a brush, pile or a stump or something, and they reel up and make another cast as a co-angler you should probably make the same cast he just made with a different bait, because like you know there might be nothing for forever, but you're throwing to the piece of cover.
Speaker 2:Exactly Yep so.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you could get all those same lessons today as you could whenever you did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if you could. You know, probably not with forward sonar and stuff, because back then it was more drifting, you know, and like even offshore, you know it's more. You had your waypoints and you know where a guy could go, sit on a waypoint and make a cast, but there was still a lot of drifting. I remember a lot of guys used drift stocks when we'd smallmouth fish. You just kind of drift and drag and stuff, and so you know, with forward sonar, I don't know if, if, yeah, if a co-angler could learn as much. But you know, if you got a shallow water guy or something you know, you could definitely definitely learn some, learn some tricks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I was a co-angler I would be hoping to get someone like you, at least, probably not someone like me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you'd be offshore, wouldn't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably more than likely. You know I say that I do use forward facing sonar as much as I can because I mean you see how it produces. I mean you almost almost every guy in every top 10, except for maybe you is like forward facing sonar catching fish, no matter where we're at, or if you have you know, certain tournaments, okachobi, or like you follow we had this year a lot of guys were just fishing down the bank or something. But but I say that and I said that's not me, but then my best finishes this year on the Invitational was flipping a tube and throwing a wacky worm at Clark's Hill. You know I didn't see a single fish on on live Right, it just fishing yeah.
Speaker 1:Just fishing, yeah, which is a ton of fun. I mean, I caught the first day I caught a 612 or 614. This is a 612. Big fish today and I was just flipping the tube it was like a little bitty bush. It was like on a channel swing, like the last big channel swing in a big creek. I wasn't getting any bites. It was pretty slow morning and then the sun got up and kind of moved them up, you know on the rocks, and I just flip up there and I drag it once and she smokes it and it was a giant Wow.
Speaker 2:That's friggin amazing. Yeah, it's, it's fun. I'm still, I'm still stuck on the, just fishing a lot, you know.
Speaker 1:I just like to.
Speaker 2:I'm a big feel guy, you know. And that's back to golf. That's a, that's a big thing Like golf is. It's all feel you know, and you have to feel it and and you know how you, what your swing path is and where your club face is, trajectory and all that. And so I'm still feel, feel fishermen, you know 90, 98% of the time but I, you know I do. If I'm fishing for small mouth, you better believe I catch 100% of my fish on forward facing.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you have to, yeah, absolutely yeah. So you're fishing the Bass Pro Tour next year, but are you fishing the Invitational again?
Speaker 2:I think so, yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I'm going to do a Bass Pro Tour and the Invitational.
Speaker 1:And maybe not the PFL or MPFL.
Speaker 2:Well, so I'd really like to fish the MPFL. I like the tour, I like the guys, the league it's. It's a. It's a good league. I really enjoy it. But they haven't released their schedule yet and I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know how it overlaps her yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. So you know, we'll just have to see, see what, see what happens when that schedule comes out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean the Invitational schedule next year is pretty well set up to be a very strong forward facing sonar schedule.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it. I need to practice it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I would say I would say every single one. I don't know about West Point Lake the first week of March. I mean, if it's like Clarks Hill, you know they could just be up there spawning again. But besides that, I mean, look at that real quick.
Speaker 2:I am oh look at that I forgot this. Actually, I got it written down here somewhere. Oh, where is that? Oh, I got it. Yeah, right here. Yeah, let's see, oh Sam.
Speaker 1:Rayburn February.
Speaker 2:That's forward sonar all day long.
Speaker 1:All day long West Point. Have you ever been to?
Speaker 2:West Point. It's been 12 years since I've been there.
Speaker 1:Yeah so yeah. Could have changed a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that one. It'll probably be forward. I'm nine out of top 10. It'll be forward. Sonar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 2:Probably.
Speaker 1:You don't think the spawn might be there, like it was on Clarks Hill?
Speaker 2:It could be. But yeah, I mean it just depends. If it's a little bit warmer they'll be coming in, but there's a good chance. I think that lake's a lot deeper and stuff like it might be later, but I don't know. It's been so long since I've been there I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Right On that. One Might take longer to yeah and then yeah and then Kentucky Lake. This is just speaking from the Toyota that we had this year in the Plains Division. I would say eight or nine out of the top 10 were forward facing sonar Wow.
Speaker 2:Even in April.
Speaker 1:Even they were spawning. Yeah, they were spawning. Yeah, those one or two guys, I think, were flipping, but they were in Barkley flipping the flowers, you know, yeah, and then the other I mean everybody else. I mean I was 13th and I was fishing, similar to how a lot of guys caught them, but yeah, it was like fishing. A couple of guys were catching smallmouth on beds, but they were on bars you know, so they're using a 316 live scope.
Speaker 1:And then I know a lot of guys were just targeting cover around spawning areas, stumps or brush or you know whatever it was. But yeah, forward facing sonar still kind of dominated. But also the water was kind of low. You know, it wasn't really the point of it's a bush flipping tournament. So I mean that obviously had something to do with it. So that could be depending on the water level.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:And then the water is high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it might be bush. Bush is, and then you follow.
Speaker 1:I mean Forward. Yeah, it'll be brush and schools offshore. I mean I know that there's a lot of grass and you know guys, some guys catch them shallow at a time here. I don't know, I just know it'll probably be dominated more so offshore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you follow. It seems to always be one in the brush piles, no matter what time of year it is. Yeah, they're going to. Yeah, especially yeah.
Speaker 1:I think a Toyota series like. They had an elite tournament there, like late May. And then two weeks before it this was like two or three years ago Two weeks before there's a Toyota and I think the guy won on a 10 XD around the same time that we're going, you know. So it's just, it's always offshore, it seems like.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:And then obviously you're too small mouth tournaments.
Speaker 2:So, oh, yeah, uh, uh, june Champlain.
Speaker 1:I guess that could. That could be a side fishing tournament.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, I don't know, that's the only one I think I'm really looking forward to. Yeah, champlain, and.
Speaker 1:So, of the times you've been to Champlain, has it ever been a bed fishing tournament? Have you been that early? Never, never.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I went up there a year ago for fun on July 4th and I just caught a ton off of beds and you know you think it'd be too late, but it wasn't there.
Speaker 1:You know, it wasn't like they were everywhere. There was a lot of males, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lots of males, but you could catch like. You could catch like 18 pretty easily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Big males and stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know a few females here and there which I know. 18 is not that great. You know anymore. You know you need you need more. But uh, but. So there's a lot of fun. I was impressed, you know, with them being up like that because it's not like St Lawrence, where there's current and they'll spawn St Lawrence too. Geez, probably August, you know, maybe I don't know, but uh, but yeah, yeah, that one should be good. And then, um, then what we got? Detroit River, july.
Speaker 1:July, july. Now go to Erie or St Clair, which it'll be one out of St Clair, so yeah, yeah, that's a I love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's going to be a great tournament.
Speaker 1:Are you? Are you planning on fishing either? Either late Cause I know you fished Erie before and did pretty well, but what about have you been on St Clair?
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, yeah, I've been fishing St Clair a lot and Erie a lot. It just depends, you know, depends on the weather. Uh, erie is a place that you go to and you just try to get five bites. You know, it's not like St Clair. You get it, you get a ton of bites, um, and stuff, you know, and catch some really big ones too. But Erie, you're just trying to get five bites and trying to catch, you know, trying to catch at least 23 pounds, you know, and get out of there. But, uh, I prefer Erie. It's a lot tougher. I like it tough, you know, I like it. We're just picking off one here or one there. Um, when I get on two big of schools and there's too many little ones and you're weeding through them, I kind of have a hard time, you know, with those staying focused.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, you're thinking that you should probably move, and then then you catch a four pounder like well, do I stay, do I go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly what you mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but uh, yeah, I mean, it looks like a fun schedule. You know, Sam Rayburn, I like that, I like Rayburn, I'll be shallow on that one for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, you know there's enough grass, though to make it, you know, to where. It will be a possibility to have a good tournament there at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean that one. You know a lot of the forwards, so in our ones are ones where I'm just kind of hoping for top 10, you know, hoping to get some good, good bites and squeak in there, um and stuff. And then you know, maybe she and playing will go really well, or even Detroit River could go well.
Speaker 1:Uh, you follow, so you say that, so you say that, like you're going to plan on fishing shallow at every tournament.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll be a fish shallow. Yeah, I'm sure I'll fish. Yeah, I mean, Sam Rayburn, I'll be shallow, Everyone will be offshore and that's fine, and and and I know what that'll be like. I'll be fishing for five bites a day, Um, as long as it's not absolutely freezing cold, Even if it is, I still think I'll catch them shallow, Um. And then, uh, yeah, West Point I'm not sure about. It's been so long since I've been there I don't even have an idea where I might fish on that one. Um. But uh, yeah, you know, I mean it could do okay shallow, but I don't know. I'm still practicing my forward. So in our game I'll be, I'm going to be practicing that all all fall and be going out on Harris, Yep.
Speaker 1:And you know there was a um I can't remember what it was called, but it was a. It was a small chain of lakes Um. Me and Drew fished it right after Okeechobee and one of the lakes was had super deep hydrilla. It was really clear and we caught them middle of February out there in the middle just roaming around on a swim bait in an Ikari.
Speaker 2:That's a winter haven chain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And, I think, the best chains of lakes in Florida to fish. I've caught more bags over 25 than under 25 on that chain and uh, you know, john and I we fished a team tournament there, you know, in the early 2000s and we had, we had 27 pounds and we got fourth place.
Speaker 1:You know this was all pre-forward.
Speaker 2:Some of our stuff. And uh that place is full of giants and it's an awesome chain of lakes. Like you said, you can have one lake where there's grass out to 20 feet and then the next lake is dirty and there's grass only four or six feet.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:There's, every lake's totally different. Um, I've been wishing a tournament trail would go there for a long time because, um, they, uh, mlf, went there like back in year 2000. There were, if you go way back, they had, I think they had these tournaments. I think they were called like Ranger cup 2000 or I don't know something, something, and they went there. They had a 200 boat field there, but, uh, it's a great, great place to fish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think the first day we went we had like 20 pounds, um, just kind of fishing out there, Lots of little ones, you know, mixed in, but we saw some on live scope that had to have been, you know, eights, probably small. There were probably eight to 12 pounders, I don't even know. There were just these giant, these giant fish on live scope and we can give them to follow stuff, you know, but never get any of them by. They were that big, you know. If they were like four or five we could catch a couple of them. But so there's some, definitely some giants that are just cruising out there, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, places loaded, loaded with big ones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like we pulled into that lake and it's like are we in Florida right now Like this? We can see like five, six foot down.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's completely different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool place. Yeah, they got Lego land there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they had a big theme park on two of the lakes. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. We had a little ditch in the mouth of one of those lakes where the canals come out and we fished there two days in a row, so both evenings. They were just like hundreds of fish. They weren't very big but they they'd be schooling, you know, right there at dark, like there would be a drop off where that canal came out. And it was just. It was crazy, there was a lot of fish in there for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's catch, catch like 50 of them probably yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So another thing like to go with, like the mental aspect, philosophy, is. I heard that you you say that you have been reading, like philosophical books, or just I don't even know what kinds. I just want to hear from you Like what, what have been the best couple of books that have helped you out, or if you have favorite authors or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've been. I started reading philosophy about three years ago and I really got onto it from a guy named Jordan Peterson. He's a, he's got a YouTube channel and stuff, and he I was actually. It's funny and story goes I was up late one night. I was watching fishing videos on YouTube and it was like midnight and I watched all kinds of different stuff and the video had ended no-transcript, and this little icon popped up and it said. It said like clean your room or something, or you know, it's something like clean your room. And I looked in. The video was 10 minutes and I thought it was funny because my room was a mess at the time.
Speaker 1:I had to actually organize and stuff.
Speaker 2:And I was like I'm gonna watch it. It's 10 minutes and it was Jordan Peterson and the things he said. It blew my mind, just the way that he viewed the world and how he and he said things that I knew to be true but I couldn't put them into words. And he was intelligent enough to put it into words and he was quoting philosophers and he would say, well, alexander's social niche would say this and he would say it. And I was like, wow, you know, these are things that I've thought of, but I was just never smart enough to put it into words and he could do it and it blew my mind and it really got my attention.
Speaker 2:And so I started reading some philosophy and I've read Jordan Peterson's books 12 Rules for Life and really what it does is it helps you set your life up to where you can be in a productive manner more often and all the time, or as often as you can, and it helps the way that you view the world and the way that you break things down mentally. You know you just it just puts you in like a higher mode of being and a higher mindset, and just the little things don't affect you as much, and you know that there's a bigger picture, something to aim at and that's one of the things that Jordan talks about a lot is having an aim in life, cause if you don't have something that you're aiming for, you're just, you're wanderless. And I always use the example that if something comes in your life and it wipes you out, if you don't have an aim, it could take you like a month to get back on track. But if you have an aim and you know what you're shooting for and something happens that throws your life off track, you can get back on track in like a day or two, cause you know exactly where you're going. And I think that's exactly right, you know. I think he's so right on that, and so that book has helped a lot 12 Rules for Life and I've read some of the other philosophers Carl Jung, and I'm working on Alexander Sultvonichin's book.
Speaker 2:It's called the Gulag Archipelago. It's a tough, tough read. It's about concentration camps and stuff in Russia and things that people live through and things that people endured and it sounds you know it sounds really really drastic and it is, but it's just about how resilient we are as humans and the things that we can go through and make it out on the other side and to find the positives in it. And so things like that help with fishing. You know, when you're having a tough day, things aren't going how you want it to, and maybe the weather is crappy and it's sleeting or snowing or raining or whatever. And just to you know, get yourself to that, that tougher mindset and to focus and not let those little things bother you, and somehow I can try to turn my focus up. When things get tough, I'll focus even harder, and philosophy has helped me with that, you know, and the way to view things. So it's yeah, it just it's changed my life for the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all aspects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all aspects, everything, relationships, how I treat people. You know gosh, I mean, you name it. You know, financially everything's working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I really like, like you were saying, the book that was talking about the concentration camps and I got to go to the Holocaust Museum actually that was in DC like when I was a senior in high school. But like to see, like you said, how resilient people are and in all kinds of different examples in our history, but like that's a good one. Like you're out there fishing and like, yeah, it's a sport that beats you down, it's a losing sport. The weather can suck, things cannot be going your way. But like, if you step back for a second and say, dude, I'm fishing, I'm on a lake right now, I'm just sitting on a boat, you know. Like to think about what some people had to go through in their life and they still kept pushing on, and like, if I give up right now, or if I like feel bad for myself, like who am I? I'm not representing those people very well, you know.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:We're saying it in their lives, yeah.
Speaker 2:We're fishing, you know.
Speaker 1:Dude, we're just having fun, yeah exactly Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, it's 100%. You know we're just fishing. You know, and other people live through a lot worse things and been through a lot tougher situations. And it's funny, though, cause in our heads you know we can blow it up like cause when you're in competition anyway, you know you can blow things up and make them seem worse than they are, and things go wrong and trolling, motors break, and you know you're flinging ear on your prop on your way to your first spot. You know all those little things and can really throw your day off, and it just helps a lot by having the right mindset, and when something goes wrong now I'm just like, oh well, oh well, you know, I've gotta fix this, gotta fix that. And then you know my day's been shortened, but so what? You know, I still have time to make it happen, and staying in that mindset just helps tremendously, cause if not, if you get to that negative mindset your day's over, you know the chances of you catching fish and salvaging your day are very, very slow.
Speaker 1:Almost zero. Almost zero yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's one of the things that's about like positive manifestation, where you need to believe that you're gonna win. If you believe you're gonna win, there's your the chance. Sorry, you're probably not gonna win, but if you believe you're gonna win, you might win. But if you don't think you're gonna win, you're definitely not gonna win, for sure you're not gonna win you know.
Speaker 1:So there's this book called how Champions Think and I'm thinking I'm about halfway done with it. I kind of put it on pause a while ago, but this guy's like a mental coach and he helps with athletes. So, like golf was his biggest sport that he was into, but he helps like LeBron and Tiger Woods, at one point, phil Mickelson and a couple other guys, but like that was one of his biggest points Was like you have to. He said that an exercise that he made his athletes do was picture themself winning the PGA Tour Championship or whatever it is, or the NBA finals. Like picture yourself winning that and picture what. Like after yourself holding the trophy, like you need to put yourself like in that position and like I've won, I did good enough to where I could win this. And yeah, that's the same exact thing.
Speaker 1:Because another big thing was Rick Klun. He came and talked to our college team a little bit and he was huge on philosophy and like he went to Marine boot camps for civilians I didn't know what you call that Like and all the things that he would think of is like crazy or like dude or just fishing. How do you think of all this, all this philosophy type stuff and that was one of his things was like being positive, using intuition, but being positive and a big story that he had to like outline that was he used to guide down on Rayburn or somewhere in Texas, I think it was Rayburn.
Speaker 2:I think it was yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he said that he had this client, or maybe he was like a client of a client. So the guy hired him to take this guy out or, and he said he had the worst attitude and he would never catch any fish. And so one day he brushed pile fishing in the summertime and he had this one that was like close to a bridge or something and he threw up there, called like a five pounder. He's like, okay, dude, like they're there, cast right there. And he threw out there nothing, throw out there and nothing. He'd get all mad. He's like, dude, there's no freaking fish out here, rick would. He said. He literally took this dude's rod, picked it up, made one, cast, caught another like five, six pounder. He's like, dude, here, I'll throw it out there for you. He throws it right over the brush pile and he's like all right, really.
Speaker 1:Then just like I did, and he never caught any fish off of it and he was like that's, it just happens like that, where if you, if you don't think you're going to catch any fish and you're not positive about it, it's not going to happen, yeah, and that's. That's like an extreme example, example, but I mean you can see that happen over and over.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so true because, like with me, every single cast that I make, I believe I'm going to get a bite on that cast, every cast. And if I don't feel like that, then it's time to move. It means I'm not fishing the right structure, I'm not interested in what I'm casting at, and so it's time to go. And it's just an absolute fact. If I'm, if I'm fishing down a bank and I'm not thrilled about it and I'm just kind of throwing out there, I usually don't catch much at all. Every now and then you'll say, oh wow, I hooked one, you know, caught a good one or something. But I have to, I have to be so precise on on, you know, every cast that I'm making. And to believe you got, to really believe that you're going to get bit on every cast, and I mean, that's, that's a fact for sure, you know, I'd say Rick's exactly right on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how often do you? To me it seems like, from what you've said, you fish a lot of spots in a day, Is? That is that true? Yeah, Uh it it's typically like, like cause you like maybe pull up somewhere and you're like this isn't right. I'm leaving. I got to go do something else.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah. There's so many times we're like I'm, I'm running to a spot and I'm like this is going to be the spot, this is it, and I pull up, I drop the trolling motor, I make one cast, I look around and I'm like, nope, it's not right. Pull the trolling motor, let's go. I can just feel it. It's just I don't know. Just whatever sense is, it just isn't happening. I'll leave, and so I, I run and gun a lot, but then there's a lot of times that I sit.
Speaker 2:You know, in the Potomac I sat, I didn't move a whole lot. I ran around some in the morning during high tide and stuff, and then I would just sit and wait, wait, wait for the bike to happen. And on Gunnersville two years ago I would fish one brim bed and I wouldn't move all day. I'd power pull down and I wouldn't move. And it was so funny, cause what was happening was there was a huge school of fish, like they had these brim all corraled and the and the bass, giant bass, like all over four or five, six pounders. They would just be around the brim bed sitting there and I could not get them the bite, but when one bass went in, they would all go in and then I'd catch back to back five pounders and that's it.
Speaker 2:For an hour, nothing. And you'd wait and wait and wait and one would go in and then you'd catch another five pounder real quick. And so it's just like knowing, knowing when to go and knowing when to stay, which is super, super hard to figure out. Yeah, I still double, I still question myself all the time and second guess myself. But you know, that's the game, you know, that's what I love about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So how do you, how do you find brim beds like that? Did you see them with your eyes, or do you scan them, or no, yeah, I always see them with my eyes.
Speaker 2:I have never side scanned a brim bed in my life, and I know a lot of guys. Do you know they'll?
Speaker 2:find them out deep and stuff. If I can't see it, I usually don't fish it. You know, I just, I just you know, I just see it. But you know, I know a lot of guys do. They'll side scan them and then they say that you throw in there and like you know, real, real something through the bottom of worm and they say the brim beds are so big you feel like you're dragging it through rocks, like you know, because of you know all the craters and stuff. And I thought that was really interesting when I hear offshore guys tell me that. But yeah, I fish shallow ones like two feet, three feet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy though. So the big school of big bass will hang out around a brim bed that's in two or three foot of water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they'll just sit there and they won't move. You can throw right through. So was there grass?
Speaker 1:around it? Were they sitting like in the grass around that?
Speaker 2:There was a little grass, but it was mostly. There was some lily pads nearby, but they would go sit in the lily pads and then it was mostly sand, cause there was old brim beds that had gone away, so it was mostly sand big. It looked like a big sand bar and man, they'll just sit there. You know you can't catch them. There's nothing you could do to get them to bite when they're not active, and as soon as they fire them you better be ready.
Speaker 1:So would you see those fish, like you see them swirl, go up there and chasing them? Or was it just like, hey, I got a bite?
Speaker 2:No, no, I would see them, yeah, and I would cast individual fish. I got it so I was a full cast away, but it was so shallow you could barely see their shadows and stuff. But I'd pick out where the big ones were, cause it was a mix from two to five pounders or so, and so I'd have them grouped up and I would never take my eyes off them, watch their behavior and stuff. So when I'd see them move, I'd throw right to the five pounder and catch them.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So you have like two you said two tournaments left this year the NPFLs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I leave for Oklahoma, you follow Oklahoma on Friday and then last week of October I think, we fished Lake Lanier.
Speaker 1:You follow Oklahoma, so what's your? I mean without trying to give away your game plan like what do you expect with that one, cause we got to see it in April.
Speaker 2:So Right, I think it's going to be a really tough tournament.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I think it's going to be super tough. I mean it was honestly it was kind of tough in April for me. Like, even though the weights were good, you know, and a lot of us caught good bags 16, 17, 18 pounds, you know, you see a lot of. I mean, what was it? 14 pounds a day? I don't think got a check right.
Speaker 1:Was it yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think day one I want to say I had like 14, 13, and I was in like 44th place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think I was right there. I had like 14, 10, and I was like 50, a third, 50 something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's good weights but you know, on paper the lake looks really good. But I think I caught like six fish that day. You know, and I just talking to other guys and a lot of them were, you know, given similar reports where they're like I'm not catching 20 fish a day and I catch it seven or eight.
Speaker 1:You know, but there's just good quality.
Speaker 2:So you know, anyways, I mean October I think there's going to be a lot of guys that probably don't catch a limit. I might be one of them, you know, I don't know, but you know if I could just figure something out to grind it out somehow, you know, you know, whatever, whatever it is, you know I'll be fishing shallow, I'm sure you know. But yeah, I'm going to fish some of the areas I fished in April and see if they're still there, but I'm not expecting the same weights that we had in you know, for the MLF in April.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were too good. I mean, what did it take to win ours in April? Was it 18 a day or somewhere?
Speaker 1:around there. Yeah, it was pretty high. I want to say it was like maybe 19. 19 seems high. But let me get a look now. Let's see you follow. Kelly Jordan had 16, 17 and 22. So you had 57, 57, 3.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, so again 19 a day, yeah that's yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean John Begg on the last day helps, but oh yeah, I don't think it'll be like that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I probably maybe 50 pounds will win 52, or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's still pretty good. I mean, the population isn't that great. Like you said, you're not going to catch a ton of fish in their day, but there's pretty good quality. I mean that's something that Good quality.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, because, like in practice, last year, I caught a five pound smallmouth too, which is really random because I never saw any smallmouth besides that one. And then I caught like a six and a half pound largemouth and I didn't even mean to set the hook on, but it just kind of happened, you know. But I mean I heard a lot of five and six pounders get caught when we were there last time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's one of the great things about that lake is there's good ones there, you know, and I was lucky enough I caught. Day two was my best day. I had 17 something and I had a four and a half and a five or five and a half that day, so it's good quality.
Speaker 1:What did you catch them on? Because the first day you were bed fishing right and then the second day you weren't.
Speaker 2:No. So day one I was bed fishing and yeah, I had the 14 pounds and a lot of the fish I had on beds were gone and a lot of the fish I had on beds guys beat me too. My boat number was like 139. I went to a four pounder a guy was on it. Went to a four and a half guy was on it. Went to another four a guy was on it.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh man, yeah, I spent the first 25 minutes just running and so then I went over to a five pounder. That was spooky and it was there and it was just as spooky. I just couldn't even get it to stay. It was gone, couldn't catch it. So then I went around and I was like, well, I just need to catch some fish. So I just went, caught some two and a halfs off the bed and I ended up catching. My best fish was on a dock, just throwing a wacky to a dock called like a three and a half or something. But yeah, I struggled that day. So then I bailed and went way up into the dirty water up there and just I just flip, flip bushes, and you know it was just flipping all day.
Speaker 1:That's a 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, throwing all that slobberknocker and all that stuff you know, and yeah, and that was better. And then day two or day three it just was dead. I think I had two fish for three pounds that day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that happens. So when did you practice up the river Like where you ran to to catch them day two?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I practiced up there. It wasn't great. I thought I could catch 12 to 13 a day, maybe or so, and you know, again, not a lot of bites, you know very tough, you know and stuff. So I thought, well, let me just go up there and see what happens. I got lucky and got two really good bites, you know, and then in a third day is dead. So yeah, I've only fished there the three days of practice and then the three days of the tournament, so I got something to go off of, but I definitely don't have a ton of knowledge of that Like for sure, right.
Speaker 1:So what about the last one In BF?
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, a linear. Never been a linear.
Speaker 1:Oh shoot, that was October. You said you're going to be there in October. That's what that was for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So never been there Excited to go, you know, not exactly sure what to expect, but I know there's some giant spots there, so I might be out there chasing them, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, October. I feel like you know it's not going to be far enough along for them to be like grouped up like they get in the winter time, but I feel like there's still got to be schools of them just chasing bait, because that's just what they do, you know it's got to be out there, Especially October, you know you're going to have shad, it's going to be fall fishing.
Speaker 2:They're probably going to be schooling. Fattest can be, you know, chasing shad. So yeah, it should be pretty good.
Speaker 1:I'm fishing the Toyota Championship on Table Rock. It's the first week in November and it's just going to be. They're going to be so fat, chasing shad and they get. I mean they're anywhere from like 15 to 100 foot, you know that time of the year or so. Wow, it's awesome, I'm pumped for it, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, believe it. Yeah, you fish there a lot, huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean right now I live a little less than an hour from there, so, and then I mean in Springfield where I went to college, here too. So the last four years, you know I've we have a lot of lakes that are good, that are close, but I've just like made myself go to Table Rock and try to get good at it, Cause that's where the most big tournaments are, you know. So I've fished a lot over the past four years or so and, like dude, the first couple of times, or first two years really, that I went and fish Table Rock in the winter or the fall into the winter, it was awful. I mean, I couldn't hardly catch anything, especially in the fall, like October, November.
Speaker 1:It's just it's tough. But now you know learning electronics and I mean these guys would catch them deep under bait but I, you know, didn't necessarily know how to do that very well or find them. You know finding them is the toughest part, cause you have all these miles of water. You know, like where's the little school of fish going to be?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's a learning curve to try to figure that out, but I actually had-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially when they're suspended, like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and like two years ago there was saw us fishing the, the Bass Per US Open, the big million dollar tournament, and I found a lot of fish, like towards the backs of creeks and like really good ones. I mean I was like I'm going to catch 17, you know, 16 to 18 pounds probably, and schools, a large mouth back in these creeks and like 30 to 40, which is pretty shallow. And the first day of the tournament, like we went to go fish that stuff and they were gone and I just started idling from the back of these creeks out to the mouths and there was two creeks, both a mile and a half long, that I idled from the back all the way to the front and there was zero fish in the whole creek, so they swam a mile and a half overnight out of there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is it's insane that they swim that much, but when you think about it, they don't care what's around them, they're just looking at the shad and following where they're at, and so the wind and current have a big effect on you know where they're at, but not always. I mean they can just swim and leave too, so it's-.
Speaker 2:Well, it's crazy, you know, cause, like I'll always think, when they move like that, like move a mile or say a mile and a half overnight, I just think that's crazy, you know. But really, if they're swimming at a, say, a leisurely speed of three miles an hour, well, they'll go a mile and a half in 30 minutes. You know, yeah, it's not very long, you know, so you know, it always blows my mind, but then when I think about them, like I guess that's just what they do, you know?
Speaker 1:Right, especially if they're following the giant school shad. Like you know, that's just cruising. They could go 10 miles overnight, no problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, easy, yeah, they can just be on the other side of the lake and we have no idea.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 2:And then the guy who's over there is like man. I killed him today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just saw some birds diving. I just saw some birds diving, went over there and caught 20 pounds.
Speaker 2:Okay, whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy, it's a different world. I mean, like Table Rock's, you know 200 and something foot deep and they can get down there 100 foot. So I mean, just think how much water that is All the creeks, the main lake, and that's a lot of water to look through to try to find fish sometimes.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's, I don't know, it seems overwhelming, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I thought I had some. I think I went through all my notes. Honestly, I was mostly interested in that philosophy stuff, which was pretty good, I mean, because, like to me and I've noticed this over the years like watching pros, whatever is that? All of the top guys not all the top guys, but a lot of the top anglers have that kind of mindset. And then you have the couple that are just like, oh, I'm going fishing today, I don't know, I'm not that prepared, I'm just gonna go see what it looks like and go fishing. But when, like you see, the majority of anglers, like most people, are like that, they're like, oh, I'm just going fishing today, and there's a few people that are have that mindset, you know.
Speaker 1:So it seems like you're increasing your chances of winning or making it to the next level of where you're at. If you focus hard on trying to, it's not even like getting better at fishing. It's about, like you said, getting better at life and prioritizing and staying productive, like in everything you do. And I mean that could be little things of like organizing tackle, doing a little bit more research on the lake you're going to. You know, whatever it may be, but that can add up over time for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know. Oh, sorry, I cut you off it's. You know, it's funny because I've gone so many different directions, all the things that you're talking about. As far as organizing and researching lakes and stuff and each angler, you know we need to find the balance that works for us, because I've researched lakes too much, where it's too much information, and now because alive and different things, there is too much information for every lake out there. I would say, in my opinion, for me. Now maybe there's another angler who can easily process through this information, that can watch however many hours of live 20, 40, 80 hours of live and they can process through it and they can break it down. So it works for them and that's great.
Speaker 2:You know, for me I can't. I need to do. I do a lot of research, but not too much to where I'm overloaded with information, you know, and I find what I think might fit my game and try to take pieces of information from that. But yeah, I mean, you know you want to be organized and as best you can. Organization is a huge thing because when that idea goes off in my head I'm out there in a tournament. I think I should throw that. I know right where it's at and I can get to it in 20 seconds or whatever you know. Tie it on, that's a big deal for sure.
Speaker 2:But you know it's about finding that balance, you know, and having your, if you can get your life set up to where it's working well off the line, working well off the water. Things go better on the water and you can have a clearer mind and know that things are at peace, you know, at home or wherever you know. That plays a big role too, you know, so you can maintain focus while you're out there, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and, like you said, that's something that I have definitely noticed and changed in me is like learning a lake and taking information on it or whatever.
Speaker 1:And more often than not if say someone's like, oh, you got to go try this spot, that I caught him in the past, and then you do a bunch of research and see how people caught him there and past tournaments and whatever Very rarely does that like play or if a tournament like Elite Series or a BPT or whatever it is, if you go watch the show and see where they caught him, it's never won in the same place twice.
Speaker 1:Extremely rare cases is that the case and it's usually always something brand new where a brand new area that hasn't played before, or a brand new technique. It's always something like that. So, like in college for me, like I was like, oh, I got to put in as much time as possible, like watching all the shows and everything and to an extent, like learning the lake. That helps a lot, but I think in the long run it hurts, like saying, oh, I got to go try this spot, I got to go try this spot, go throw this bait that he was throwing, and then you're not because you're ignoring the conditions that you're under right now.
Speaker 1:What's the water level? You know, if the wind's blown the same direction all week, maybe it moved the fish to that side of the lake, like. There's a lot of little things that probably are not the same condition wise as it was for that one tournament.
Speaker 2:So like that Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, like I've tried to research lakes and like learn it, like, oh, kachovy, I've never been there and I really tried to like study the lake and watch the past like shows, to see what the different parts of the lake were like. But I really wanted a fresh mind and to like not have a preconceived notion of what it was going to be like, and I think that like that definitely helps Cause, like you said, like figuring out, like following your intuition to figuring out like what's best that week. I mean that's definitely how guys win tournaments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean yeah, I mean it's what you're saying is true on almost, not a hundred percent, but 90% of the tournaments, like, I think, potomac, I think what last time didn't Jacopo win in Potomac Creek?
Speaker 1:Yeah, down their ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then now I mean, some guys still did well though, but I think it was one in Quantico this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:So it's like you know, just completely different creek. You know what?
Speaker 2:12, 15 miles away you know, just like you're saying, you know it's always changing and it's always somewhere else, it seems like. And so you know that's where that mindset, you know just keeping that open mindset and trying new things, you know where I'm just like, hey, let me try over here, you know, see what I can figure out in this creek, you know, and you know not going off a pass information and stuff, and that's where that. You know that philosophy helps where it comes in and can help you like mentally break things down and to where you can visualize things better, just process things faster. Your brain's just operating on a little bit, a little bit better level than it was before. And you know all you can really do is improve yourself every day. You know, and it's you know, the more you can improve yourself, the better you're gonna get, and it's you'll have exponential success as you begin to improve, that those improvements will compound and you'll just get better and better and better and it just it helps everything.
Speaker 1:Right and it shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, you'll know it. You know, you'll know it for sure.
Speaker 1:Right. Your successor over the past couple years is like definitely accumulation of all that mindset over time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it really has helped. I had fished well before I had read, you know, red Jordan and other philosophers and stuff, but I'm starting to do better and better, you know, as time goes on. So you know, if you're interested in Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life, that's a great book. It has nothing to do with fishing, nothing at all. Well, it does actually. It does, but you know, but it's just about life and stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I've watched a lot of his videos and I've seen him talk about those 12 rules, but I'm definitely gonna read it now, and that you said that it's a good book.
Speaker 2:so yeah, yeah, check it out. I mean, maybe it's not for you, maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but you know it kind of takes a little bit to get going. You know some chapters aren't as interesting and some will reach out and grab you. You know where you're like oh man, I can apply this, you know, and other ones. I'm just like I just kind of read through it, you know. But you know those ones that grab you they're great, you know, really help you, but then you gotta implement it. So put it to work, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Well, do you have any kind of rounding it up, thoughts, anything to top off the conversation?
Speaker 2:Man, you know, I just got a couple NPFLs to go. You know, just stay positive, get everything ready, trying to get things lined up for next year, for BPT and, you know, any other league I'll fish. I like to fish multiple leagues, multiple tournaments and stay sharp. And yeah, man, just you know, stay positive, keep going and good things will happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, dude, good luck in these last two NPFLs. And are you in it for points Like could you win Angler of the Year on these last two?
Speaker 2:No, no, so I missed one. I skipped Saginaw Bay.
Speaker 1:I gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that tournament overlapped practice for La Crosse and.
Speaker 1:I was like you know, so I skipped that one. That's right, I remember that now.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, but top 25 in points go to their championship and even after skipping Saginaw, I'm in 26th in points right now with two to go. So, yeah, that's my goal Goals top 25. So if I catch them in the next two, I think I'm like a couple points out of 25th.
Speaker 1:Well, awesome I mean that's always awesome to have a goal to work towards like that towards the end of the season.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, still got something to strive for and look forward to, and you know, make that top 25 and then I can make the championship in 2024. So yeah, that's my goal.
Speaker 1:Maybe win one too.
Speaker 2:Who knows?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that'd be nice. That's extra money in the pocket as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it pay 100 grand, so that's pretty good.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, dude, good luck in those last two, and can't wait to see you next season and fish against you again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, looking forward to it. Man, it's nice meeting you this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you too. Well, I think we'll round that out for today, dude. We had a great conversation. I enjoyed that. I think it was maybe a little bit different look than you know most people like taking the fishing, but it's an important one. So thanks for that conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, thanks for having me. I had a good time yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, Keith, I'll talk to you later All right, thanks man. All right, bye Guys. That was a great conversation with Keith Carson. I know I learned a lot of things from that, and I hope you did too. That rounds it out for today, and please stay tuned for the next one.