Living Reconciled
Living Reconciled, hosted by Mission Mississippi, is a podcast dedicated to exploring reconciliation and the Gospel that enables us to live it out. Mission Mississippi has been leading the way in racial reconciliation in Mississippi for 31 years. Our model is to bring people together to build relationships across racial lines so they can work together to better their communities. Our mission is to encourage and demonstrate grace in the Body of Christ across racial lines so that communities throughout Mississippi can see practical evidence of the gospel message.
Living Reconciled
EP. 86: John Hugh Tate and Ministry Life in Paris
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
In this episode of the Living Reconciled Podcast, Pastor and missionary John Hugh Tate shares what it’s really like to build an English-speaking church in Paris—a city of beauty, pressure, and deep spiritual need.
From raising kids in a secular culture to worshiping weekly in a Muslim-owned brasserie, John paints a vivid picture of reconciliation in action. His simple framework—go deep and go out—shows how authentic faith and gentle clarity can build bridges across some of the world’s toughest divides.
If you care about unity, mission, and living out the gospel in diverse spaces, this conversation will encourage and challenge you. Subscribe and share the episode to help others live reconciled—wherever they are.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on episode 86 of Living Reconciled. I am your host, Brian Crawford, and my good friends, Nettie Winters, Austin Hoyle, unfortunately can't be with us this week. But I do have another good friend that I can't wait for you to hear from. Before I get a chance to introduce him to you, I do want to give a quick shout out to some good friends and sponsors of this podcast. Folks like Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy Regents Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Power, Robert Ward, and Winners. Thank you so much for everything that you do. It's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do as an organization and as a podcast. And today, what we're doing is we're talking to an incredible friend, missionary, uh pastor, believer, gentlemen by the name of John Hugh Tate, who also happens to serve on the board of Mission Mississippi. John is again a pastor, believer, but he's also a father, a husband, and a good friend of Mission Mississippi. John, how are you doing, brother?
SPEAKER_01:I'm great, Brian. Thank you for that introduction, and uh it's an honor to be on here again. So uh appreciate you uh having me for the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, man. Absolutely. I would love to just start our time, John, because um, as you alluded to, we have we have had you on one time to talk a little bit about uh your work in the field uh in the in the very hard, hard territory of Paris, France. Um but I would love for you to give us an update, man. Talk to us a little bit about what's been going on in and I said hard with sarcasm, of course, but talk to me about what's been going on in Paris, France these days, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I heard that that hard, hard, uh maybe it was even the third hard uh on on Paris, France. And and and I hear you, brother. I know what you're saying, and and some others do as well. Yeah, let's start there. Paris is uh it's a wonderful, uh, beautiful, you know, cultural, uh global city that uh, you know, that God loves. And uh they're uh you know, so I I don't claim to be like uh uh Jonah in Nineveh. Uh we enjoy being there, you know, the uh you know, as the end of Jonah, you know, all those people that God loves. I'm thinking about the 11 million uh people in Mexico Paris. That has been quite a change for this uh this self-proclaimed country boy from New Albany, Mississippi. And uh and then 17 years of ministry in Jackson, so 11 million. I tell folk, they say what's the biggest uh change or biggest difference? You know, is it the language? I was like, man, it's uh it's riding metros and buses and you know taking an hour to get everywhere. That is that's been a significant difference. But it is a beautiful city. It uh you know, it is endowed with with art and architecture and you know literature, and you know, I think it is the most visited city in the world. It seems like it living there, all those that come through. But uh we we do have a love for France and Paris and have grown that living there now. We're in year five, so it's been a blessing to be there.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, John, that's a that's that's a really long time, man. It's it's it's blown by. It's absolutely blown by, man. Um tell tell me a little bit. You talked a little bit about uh what you what you really, really appreciate and love about Paris. Why don't we tease that out a little more if you don't mind? Is there some things that just really kind of resonate with you deeply about about the uh the experience that you've had over the last five years in Paris?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, one thing people ask me about about France or the French people or or or Parisians. The first word that always comes to mind, and I say this as a huge compliment, they're very precise people. Uh they're precise in their architecture, in their art, in their language, and they value these little things that that I've I felt like I even take for granted. I mean, even in uh I mean there are little differences in the cars. I mean, we own a French car. There are differences in uh uh just using of space. You know, France is about the size of Texas, and there's still a lot of people, and so you have to be creative in how you use space. It's a very dense city as well, so you know that that contributes to it. But I mean, past that, I love history, and so I mean, I'm just in the center of some global history and World War II history. I mean, the square where our church meets uh was the underground headquarters of the French resistance in uh World War II, um, which is a really uh I mean, loving history and you know, spy craft, things like that, that's cool. On that square, there's also a statue of a lion, and the uh the same gentleman who sculpted the statue of liberty, uh sculpted that lion, and they actually have the uh the head of the line, and this is what I mean by precise. They have the head of the line uh directed towards the Statue of Liberty. Just little things like that that people uh No, they don't take it for granted, they think about that. And I think that's uh I think that's just a God-given gift uh to not overlook anything. So yeah, we've really enjoyed uh you know learning more about the culture and and those intricacies of uh of the life in Paris.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you mentioned it being, you know, uh you you know you use the words that that France, the the French are precise people, right? Um would you say that is reflected in the agri, not the agriculture, but the architecture and the arts, or would you just say generally, just overall uh Parisians are precise people?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I would say I would say overall, because I think it's a compliment. I mean, just in the way, you know, the way they love food. I mean, brother, you gotta you gotta go over there and uh and eat and eat well, but the way they do their courses, the way they set the table, they don't you know take anything for granted. And again, I can be uh, you know, I I man, I don't know how you are. I mean, I I I love food. I wouldn't call myself a foodie. I mean, sometimes I see food as as fuel, and you know, I hope there's no uh French or foodies listening to that because they would be like, oh my goodness. But yeah, they would uh many that I know. I mean, they they they enjoy food to agriculture. Um it's a very, you know, I have a good French friend, actually he's half French, half British, but he loves French history, and he said uh, and this sounds like a true Mississippian as well, but he said to understand France, you have to understand they're people of the land, that it began as a a peasant country, peasant not negative, but people that worked the land, that tilled the land, and uh, you know, from you know the grapes that produce the wine to the agriculture, so that there's that precision. But then if you go into Paris, and you know, if you look at the Arc de Triomphe, you know, which is there, and and you do look at the architecture and you know how precise it is to sculpt you know some of all these uh characters and faces and things, it's it's amazing. It's an amazing gift uh that God has given that uh not not simply that we should recognize by seeing it, but just thinking about you know the time and effort that was uh put into creating it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. No, that's incredible, man. Um what turning turning a little bit towards like you we you know, the things that you're really, really enjoying about it. What what are what are some of the things that you still find challenging in terms of adjusting?
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's so many challenges too, and and you know, um people ask, you know, how I how I do like it. I always try to pause because I don't want to just give a uh a rose-colored uh whimps of it. And I don't also, you know, you can't say it's just all difficult or challenges, because you know, they're they're blessings too. Sure. Um I do think, you know, it's it's very urban and gritty. Um I've I've never lived in New York, uh, but Paris is very dense. Um the square mileage of Paris proper, the city limits, is smaller than the square mileage of Jackson, Mississippi.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01:And and you've got three to four million people in the city limits. Wow. And then you've got an additional seven, six to seven outside. So you you know, it's just densely packed. I mean, there we've had mission teams come over from churches in Mississippi, and and that's something not just me, but but everybody underestimates. You just don't think about Paris as a place that you're just packed in a metro, you know, with a lot of Africans and Asians and Europeans, and you know, just shoulder to shoulder and and and holding on. But that's that's part of life in that city in that that urban context. Um and I think to do ministry there, you need to at least be prepared for that and adjust to that. It's a very, very urban, gritty city. You know, that's one thing. I think the uh then I will be honest too. I mean, this is uh, you know, we're Christians, we're we're brothers in Christ, you know, but uh but France, Paris, Europe, I mean, it's a very non-Christian context. And uh that is something we can talk more about that, but I say it over and over again, from a family perspective, from raising kids to uh to just a life perspective, living in a neighborhood. I took for granted living in Jackson, the the Christian, you know, the Christian cultural Bible belt context, which doesn't mean everybody's Christian there, but you also know there's an underpinning of Christian values that generally speaking, most families go to church. That doesn't mean they're Christian. We know that most kids, you know, are raised with some foundations that we just don't have where where we live now. One of our son, we have three boys, thanks for for mentioning that, and and my wife Linda. But one of our sons they go to a a French public school, but with uh some English classes as well. It's bi it's bi-cultural, bilingual. But one of them said, you know, it's just very difficult being a Christian in a non-Christian context. And so raising kids in that is has been a challenge. And uh it's been a huge uh disparity coming from from Jackson, Mississippi that we've had to adjust to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when you talk about the challenge of being in a predominantly unchurched context, um what are some of the opportunities in terms of you know, lessons learned? Um, you know, some of the, you know, at least for for me when I think about opportunities, one of the first things I think about is kind of how we can in some ways our overly church context can can in some ways drag us down in a sense because we we we tie we we tend to see it almost as an entitlement, if that makes sense, versus actually versus actually cherishing the experience of being able to worship together, cherishing the experience of being able to just have places and spaces where you can sit and talk about the Bible openly and and and and that entitlement can kind of sour us on in in some ways in terms of our Christian experience. So are there some opportunities in terms of being, you know, being in a place where Christianity is not as broad and not as widespread? Um are there some are there some opportunities that come out of that?
SPEAKER_01:For sure. And I love how you use the the word the you know opportunity, that phrase opportunity. I would say, you know, what it initially comes to mind, the opportunity, each individual, we have to go deep intentionally and we have to go out strategically. Meaning, like we can't just take it for granted that entitlement that you talked about of what we believe and why we believe what we believe. We have to be intentional to go deep within ourselves and even ask ourselves, do I really believe what I say I believe? You know, or is it just uh is it just something I've learned and even learned to communicate? But so you know, we we try to disciple our kids. I mean, I try to, you know, from devotions every morning before they go, you know, intentionally talk, but to go deep and you know, do you believe what we profess? And then to go out strategically, meaning really be thoughtful in how we communicate and when we communicate with others. One of our sons too went on a camping trip uh this past summer with some friends, and you know, he pr they were sitting around the campfire and he prayed before he uh before they eat they ate just on his own. And and one of his friends, a good friend, is a a self-proclaimed described atheist. You know, just now I I don't, you know, I I personally don't think they're really any atheists. We all worship something, but uh I mean that's uh you know that's a cultural word that's used, like, you know, I'm an atheist, you know. I mean, how can you believe this? And and our son was uh, you know, we're proud of him. He described it, we weren't there, but uh, you know, he didn't react. Uh, you know, he took it in. Still a friend, still a good friend, and he was able to uh you know give a defense for what he believed and also to uh you know to share and be open and listen. So you have to strategically go out. Like he's not going to risk that guy is not going to receive, you know, if he just uh you know said, well, you need to believe what I believe, or um, you know, this is the way, the truth, and the life, and you know, you're you're not there yet, and that you know for you, pity. You know, that's not gonna I mean we know that doesn't work, but sometimes even a we can have a communication strategy or posture that might even speak that without us knowing it. So he's got to be strategic in how he uh how he talks and and when he does so.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, it's it's funny that you mentioned that, John, because I immediately um just start thinking about the reality that that's in some ways that's our culture increasingly in the States. But I don't know if the church has pivoted to adjust to that, you know, and so and so we still are treating the culture or we're still engaging the culture like uh like the Christian ethic is just understood and assumed, and that we can just kind of show up, spill, spill, spill out almost like a track in human form, and and can do that minus relational engagement, relational evangelism, you know, befriending and listening and and and and cultivating trust and and all of that. But I think our culture very much is shifting in that direction where uh where we should be pivoting in a sense in the same way that a missionary in Paris, France would be uh pivoting. I mean, is that does that make sense at all to you?
SPEAKER_01:100% uh makes sense and agree. You know, it and as you're talking, I think the Bible, you know, it it presents a very nuanced view to me at least on mission strategy uh individually and as the church. You know, I I love Jeremiah 29, as many do. I mean, there's the famous verse, you know, I know the plans I have for you to give you a hope and a future. But you know, that's written in a context to uh as a letter that God sent to his people who were in a foreign culture, a foreign language, foreign context. Yes. You know, and what did he say do? Uh well, really that you know there were two there were two uh options initially presented. One was to fully acclimate, as the Babylonians wanted God's people to do. Um, and like the Babylonians tried to get Daniel and his friends to um you know to have all the education and eat all the food there, and they said, no, we're not gonna fully acclimate. But then the uh you know God said, Don't follow the prophets who are saying just totally isolate amongst yourselves and and be tribal. And so the nuanced view is we don't fully acclimate to the culture, and yet we don't fully isolate ourselves as the church and Christians either. And uh, you know, part of that is being in, not of, and you know, it can be a cliche, but a lot of cliches are great truths, and uh it is very nuanced. Uh, and we're trying to do that too as a family. You know, we um our kids, again, they're in a French public school, um, you know, which is challenging, but also we just believe that we are called to be light and be out there and be right in the middle of the city, of the cities, uh, in and and that speaks, you're right, exactly, to American culture, increasingly different languages, even, uh, and different races, and uh the mix of uh of different others and um you know to be right in and amongst them. And and we shouldn't, we we have nothing to fear. But uh and I say that, I mean, but we can have anxieties and fears always around people of different beliefs, and you know, are we gonna say the right thing, uh, communicate the right way? And we need to that's why we I think we also have to be intentionally go deep um daily, you know, in God's word, in prayer, and in Christian community. But Christian community that also says we're not just gonna isolate, but we're not gonna fully acclimate either.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. And and it's and it I think um even as I'm hearing you this, you know, discuss this experience, what I'm hearing is the reality that this is probably going to anchor anchor your faith in ways that that maybe even being surrounded in a culture of Christian ethics and Christian faith, professing uh Christians may not necessarily, you may not have the opportunity to have it anchored as sure. Because you're gonna there's like trials and testing and and there's so many different differences of opinion and so many different ideas that are being tossed your way to kind of counter, you know, the faith. And so I I would imagine that the faith is very much tried and tested in in a space like Paris. Is that true or what what what what do you think about that? Would it put would you push back on that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01:I know, I know mine has been tried and tested. And you know, I mean, speaking honestly and talking to other missionaries, I mean, we are missionaries uh technically, but uh I mean spiritual warfare is real, it's not uh hokey pokey. Um I think C.S. Lewis said it, you know, the the danger about spiritual warfare is twofold is one, you know, everything is spiritual warfare, and then second, nothing is spiritual warfare. And it's neither of no of those, but it is uh it you know, it so it's real. I think whenever you know you're expanding the kingdom of Christ personally, collectively, you know, there's opposition, and uh, and and it will test and reveal your blind spots, and so that will certainly occur. Also, you know, I mentioned 11 million people, but you and I come from a context in in Mississippi where uh you know there's a plethora of churches. There's still a need for churches, but uh we we live in very uh and or I was grew up and have lived in in very thick you know, thick uh community, both culture and neighborhoods. You know, it's very thick, and it's like a fabric that it's it's so thick, if you pull out one strand, the community like feels it, you experience it, and uh, and that's great for the Christian community too. You know, it's just real thick, and and uh one of the benefits uh of the church and what the church should be. So we're tested by it's our church is very fragmented, meaning like you know, there are very few churches in the midst of all those people. So, you know, we live in an apartment complex where I don't know any other Christians in that apartment complex. And yet, you know, I lived 17 years in a neighborhood and street, and I think all my neighbors would have professed to be Christian, uh, you know, in some form or fashion. And, you know, so it's very uh it's very fragmented. Again, I talked about the challenge of of kids, and you know, you don't know their the value set or the worldview of the friends that they are at school with. So that is uh it folks more that we have to disciple in the home and not take that for granted either. Uh we have to grow deep in the church community that we have or that we're building. And uh, you know, I do think like you and I, I mean, I I know I I'm not gonna speak for you, but I think being here and being from families here, you know, it's a blessing to be from that thick community. And I think it's it's like an external gift God gives us that we can also give it to others wherever we go. So we like we know what rich community is like, we know that depth and we can uh build connections. And honestly, I think that's helped us to start and grow uh the church there in Paris.
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of which, talk to us a little bit about where the church is and at this moment in its life, um, what what is the demographic makeup and what are some of the uh successes as well as some of the trials that you've experienced in church planning in France?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I'm a pastor with Emanual International Church. So Manual International Church was first founded in 1963. Uh so it's international, meaning English speaking. And so I'm a pastor there, but they had a vision about seven years ago to uh to plant more churches and to grow a family of churches under the same association uh around Paris. So I so we moved there to both uh be a pastor at EIC, we call it, and then plant a new church in a different area of Paris. We're in the southern part of Paris on the left bank, which in French is called Reve Gauche. There's my French for you. But uh Reve Gauche, and so we we planted and started worship Easter of 23. So uh, you know, God has allowed us to um to worship every Sunday now for two and a half years uh there on the left bank of Paris, uh Reve Gauche. And uh we've grown, you know, we've grown a stable community that's uh that's established.
SPEAKER_00:What's what's your what's your current um your I guess your attendance on on any Lord's Day right now, John?
SPEAKER_01:So we've we've averaged about uh we've averaged about 65 people.
SPEAKER_00:And then is that substantial in a in a in a Paris-France context?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean I I think the Bible believing gospel preaching, you know, the larger churches in Paris, the largest church is, you know, Protestant um Bible-believing gospel preaching, it's about 200 people. Yeah. So uh that's the large so we've uh you know, I mean, our highest attendance Sunday I would say is about 85, 90. Wow, wow. And then uh a low Sunday would be about 50. So we've you know, I think we've developed a a good uh a good community, a good church within that context. And I remember some I remember a French pastor, he was well, he was half French, half American.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When we were thinking about moving over, and he said, Man, you've got to be used to the the context here and the numbers game. I was like, Oh, I'm fine, you know. I'd I'd be fine with 70 people, and he's like, Well, would you be fine with seven? Because that's and I was like, I don't but he he actually made that statement. And and yes, I know we say where two or more is gathered, but uh you know, there are there are I know churches that regular meet with 20 or 30 people. Um but look, here's here's the overall numbers, yeah, uh Brian. You know, Paris Metro area, 11 million people. And I mean I know for a fact there there's definitely less than 10,000 people in, again, Protestant, uh gospel believing, uh, Bible preaching uh churches, maybe less than 5,000. So if you just do those numbers, that's the you know, 10,000 is very uh you know, that that's giving some grace. 5,000 might be a conservative number, but I'm literally thinking about 10 to 20 churches with less than 200 people. And so that's what you uh that's what you have. Wow. Wow, wow. Yeah, I mean that that that's a that's a whole different experience. Yeah, I'm not just throwing the numbers around. I mean, I've asked people like, could is that fair to state publicly, oh yeah, you know, definitely less than 10,000 you know, in uh in a context of 11 million. So those are that's indicative. Um and I well I think and that and Paris probably has the most you know gospel activity, church planting activity than the rest of uh France. I mean, there I think there's a lot of I mean, we live in an exciting time. There's more church planting, there's more gospel ministry, there's more renewal, but there's still a lot to do, you know, in in generations to come.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So that's why go ahead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I was just about to ask. Um really and and and and let me let me pause. Let me sit on that first. You you go ahead and finish your thought.
SPEAKER_01:Well, just meaning that uh, you know, I think that's one of the reasons we felt motivated to go. So like we're Mississippi residents, we're always gonna have a home base here. Uh, I definitely feel convicted to help other people go, whether that's teams or individuals. But one of the big reasons we went is uh a larger vision for a global city that has, you know, that's a crossroads of Europe, Asia, Africa, you know, all these visitors. But to to grow a church planting, you know, family there and to plant other churches. So that being said, I'm ready for you you to come, man. And who knows, you may get recruited, and we'll see. But uh, you know, there's just there's a lot, there, there's a lot of great ministry that can be uh can be done and and churches that need to be planted. Yeah. So we didn't just go to plant one church. I mean, be we came to be part of this family of church plants and new churches that we hope to develop. And and who knows, maybe beyond France, but definitely build a pipeline in Mississippi and get churches and individuals connected and involved. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's phenomenal, man. That's phenomenal. Um I'm I'm I'm if you don't mind, I'm gonna pivot a little bit and talk a little bit about the way the last time we had had our pie, we talked a little bit about um division and how it uniquely manifests itself in France. Really curious just to kind of pick back up on that and kind of go go down that line, go down that street again. And just as you've spent more time in France, you know, how do you see uh divisions in a in a global city, like you mentioned, with all of these different people and cultures, you know, coming together and and and in some ways fusing together, in some ways colliding together. Um how do you see division and and and then the challenge of unity uniquely manifesting itself in a place like France?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it's a wonderful question, and I think it's a question we need to keep going deep into and that that mission Mississippi you know presses us into. So you know, whether it's it's Mississippi or Paris, France, you know, uh that that word division. Yeah. I think in that culture, um which is also reflective of I think any culture, you have your your nationals, uh your home base, your home tribe, uh, you know, people that were born and raised there. And there's always there's always the potential for division with that other person. That's what I'd call. You know, that other person who's who's different, who's coming in. I mean, the Bible speaks of it as the alien, you know, or the immigrant we might use, uh, but also the outsider. And then you take that from a you know, from a national perspective and uh a policy perspective to to use that word of uh of immigration. It's a it's a really big deal in France in the sense of open borders, like many European countries. So I mean, there are you know there's their their neighborhoods in Paris or their enclaves outside of Paris. And I've literally been in them and I've thought, you know, this is, you know, arguably more similar to like Tunisia. Okay. And and so my point being is that you've got an influx, okay. And so you know that is creating that that's that's creating a sense of, you know, are we being who we are as a culture, as a nation, as French people. I'm not French, but I mean I'm an immigrant too. You know, I just happen to be a Westerner more. Yeah. And uh and so we can get into that as an American too, but I'm an immigrant as well. Some are much more welcoming to us, you know, than others. But it's definitely given me a sense of being the the outsider you know coming into a culture wanting to be embraced. I mean wanting to make make friends, make relationships, have good neighbors.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, I'd say there's stark division, but you see it worldwide because of uh you know whether you call it globalization or open borders um you know and how do we you know some people would say how do we mitigate this how do we stop this some might say um you know that debate between the national and the and the other is um I think it's a global conversation that uh different countries are addressing in different ways and and obviously uh you know it's an issue here too as Americans I would say um I mean also just to bring it back to a Christian perspective you know I mean we have the answer not only in Christ but in the family of Christ you know being brothers and sisters in Christ and that uh runs across all languages all races all cultures and I think the more we can live that out you know both in our both to our neighbors and to the nations because Jesus specifically calls us to both neighbors and nations literally then uh you know we can show I mean there is a you know there's a better way there's a non-tribal way there's a um uh you know that that we can connect and embrace uh other people yeah yeah there's a non-tribal way and that non-tribal way do you see it as manifesting itself in a prominent way in in France or do you see the tribalism as a as a you know as a just like you know as it's reflected in the States right in the in the US do you see that kind of tribalism and that kind of intensity showing itself in in France well I mean I I honestly I see more similarities and that's uh again on so I'm we're on year five so it's not like we've lived there 20 years but it's not like our first year and yeah you know the challenges that I think uh some of some of which we see in in this country um you could easily say you know are seen there too.
SPEAKER_01:Meaning like you have people born and raised in France and then you know you have others coming from different cultures and contexts that are um you know that you know it's a socialist country as well which is very different so that immediately receive free health care. I mean that's a that's a state of the society that's a that's a law there that immediately can set up shop that immediately could get work. So less barriers there than here. And uh and so you know you have and then you have a non-Christian environment. So you people aren't even you know it's it's not even a a framework of like how should we act towards the outsider as Christians. Right. Are you hearing what I'm saying? Right so if you don't even absolutely not even not even if people mean it here they at least sometimes say it or at least want it to be said so they can you know even look the Christian part. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:There's still some social capital. I mean even with all of the erosion there's still some social capital in you know kind of professing uh a position of faith in the west uh in the states in the states yes exactly so there's not that there at all and yeah I mean I I know it's not a political conversation but all conversations are political because politics just about people but yeah that is a that is a huge issue for France and the influx of foreigners coming in with the uh those that have a strong national identity and and how that how that's gonna be played out in the next five to ten years. When you when you think about uh division um you know we're faced we're faced with a lot of it here in the West and so we are uh man we're increasingly divided um at least more than more than I've seen in my in my lifetime of course you know of course you can go back further and and from 1619 forward and and you know the American story is a story of tensions and divisions and and wrestling rights and wrestling rights back and then wrestling them away and back and forth like a seesaw but this is a very unique moment um for for the for the US how does France when you're around uh citizens of France and the people of Paris how do they perceive the state of our country right now well you know Brian in in one sense in one sense you know from World War II on really um or really a couple you know several years after World War II I think there has been uh a sense that you know Americans are you know we we isolate ourselves you know we're not as cultured we are not as uh interested in the world um you know we're more interested in in what's you know between the two oceans and I think there's some truth to that and I think that's very fair.
SPEAKER_01:Uh it's very fair for a person to be concerned with uh you know his family and his city and you know we were both you and I I mean yes the American story but God planted us in a country you know that is uh that is separated by two oceans from the rest of the world and so we're just naturally more more isolated.
SPEAKER_00:I also think that uh I'm a history buff so I I'm tying it to history I also think France and some European countries you know no no one likes losing power let's say that no individual no country and for generations European countries were the most powerful on earth uh from you know both especially France the UK but you can go further back Spain and even Portugal but uh you know to lose and and this is fair too you know you're to not be you know at the epicenter of the most powerful countries of the world uh I think uh I think envy is a real thing and so I mean I would I would come out and say I mean I think there is uh some of that as well um you know no one no one really admits to that but I mean I feel like I could state that as uh you know countries can envy one another and I think America can be the envy of others now past that I also think that uh you know some of the the policies that uh that have gone on over you know the last several years uh you know people identify um people identify like the current administration and are very some would say oh I wish we had that here okay and then others will say you know I can't believe that's happened this is happening this is so crazy this is so uh you know this is not right so I've heard both and it's really been kind of a 50-50 type split but uh what interests me the most is more and more people there are saying you know I wish we had and this is being said a make Europe great again you know here's here's that that's that's happening yeah here's what I'm hearing John is that it's not a monolith just like it's not a monolith here you know it's all sorts of diversity of thought and and ideas and and you got you got you got you know center left center right you know far left far right it's that it's that you know and I think the same mistake that that that we make in the in in the states right where or that people make about the states in terms of kind of lumping everybody in this big bucket where everybody's thinking alike and and seeing the world alike it's easy for us in the states to make those same assumptions about you know other other nations other countries and and not see the diversity of thoughts and opinions and sentiments as it relates to like you said as it relates to the plurality of uh of of the people that are coming in some people have one ideal about it other people have a totally different ideal about it let me give you a parallel story um so you know I left uh I came back to visit the U.S.
SPEAKER_01:a week ago but uh rewind I remember I was in France I was at a study abroad program in 1995 and so you had the same kind of mentality philosophy towards America as as in the majority might say oh yeah you know they're isolated they're not as cultured as we are you know that that type of uh statement but then in 1995 uh the US came in and ended the Bosnian conflict in the Dayton Accords and I just remember that happened November of 1995 and I was there and I remember several people said you know you know we say this these things or we think about America but look at you you must be so proud to be an American your country just ended this conflict that's been going on for a decade here and it made me very proud I mean I know pride you know as a Christian C.S. Lewis is but it did make me very proud to be an American fast forward to a week ago ten days ago I almost heard the same thing with the uh with the the peace accords in Israel I mean I mean literally the same thing just different place in saying you know we can say these things uh you know about this your country or even about this administration but you must be so proud that you came in and it's over and it's done. And so uh I just think that's that's very significant um but it also plays to your point you know there are a lot of people that can say different things but it's uh it's not a this is not a racial statement it's not a black or white thing it meaning like it's it is nuanced you know it's it's gray in terms of uh opinions people have you know about Americans I've heard people say you know I can't believe President Trump is doing this this and this but then they'll say but you know what we really should be paying more to NATO and we should be protecting ourselves more which is interesting it's like that's the policy that's trying to be uh put forth but just because the personality you're like I'm not going you know you know personalities and and the policies are different but uh they might believe the same but uh they might not be for the person who's speaking it's a yeah we we we've adopted a a very you know team based approach to all all of our political um pol political musings right it's it's like hey I John made a good point but I can't acknowledge that John made a good point because he's on he's with those other guys you know yeah it's and it's and it sounds like that might be permeating even even you know uh overseas across the pond as well yeah I mean emotion definitely has its place yeah you know but sometimes it doesn't and if you you can really discipline yourself to take emotion out of it listen to people I mean or take prejudice out of it I mean prejudice is a real thing and just take your take the inherent prejudices take perhaps learn prejudices out whether you're a European or you're French or American or Southerner put it on the shelf and try to listen and uh that's that's a real discipline and uh I think we need to promote that more I think um we need to stress that more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I mean to be honest with you it's a m it's almost kind of like a muscle uh you know in terms of the way you think about uh bias and entering into conversations with with you know we all carry bias we we and we won't escape that because that's just kind of part of the the fallen human condition is that we we we see things with a slant but but I but I think I think the more time we spend in diverse spaces and places and the more variety we allow ourselves to uh engage in terms of people from different walks of life I think in some ways while it cannot completely remove our bias it does help us in terms of being able to uh manage it better and and not just and not just simply fall into that space that we fall into when we when we are when when we're exclusively team based you know and we are like hey yeah if if I I mean I you you talk you tell me if that's if that's something that resonates with you from your from your vantage point where you are in France.
SPEAKER_01:It does. I mean let me give you an example of this um you know I mean we're all I mean I I say we're all I mean I was our family was I mean many I mean really impacted by Charlie Kirk's assassination I'll profess I didn't follow him a lot sure really before that um and I and I would say unfortunately I would have liked to have known more I mean it you know but you hear the noise so much so then after the assassination I started listening more to the debate uh being interested well in France uh we came across they were having a a memorial for him uh some American uh section you know group and it was going to be at the statue of uh Lafayette uh in Paris Lafayette you know was uh aide de camp uh for George Washington and and fought in the American Revolution and you know initially I saw I saw I saw Hamilton so I know all I know all the six you know all about that but uh you know at first I was like at first I was like oh I'd like to go to this and then I was like well should I go like how is that gonna be perceived by people in my church community or how is that maybe I shouldn't and then I was like no I'm just gonna go it's but I want to admit like I had that you know that thought that pause of like well because you know how people will react but at the end of the day he's like an American it was a horrible incident and I just wanted to pay my respects and there was an opportunity and it was you know it was not political honestly it was not that religious I mean we sang amazing grace you know we had the Lord's prayer but they tried to make it uh you know they really toned it down but I wanted to go and there were about 300 people there around the statue and there was a program and I was glad to go to uh you know to to try to pay respects and um you know that's you know in some ways we we got to get past well what people think you know and move past positions to just you know human beings you know our our shared common common humanity and um I and yeah you know they're they're definitely definitely different perspectives but uh I mean some of the things I mean some of the things he stood for uh I think are are wonderful in the sense of and I'll I'll say you know in terms of and I've I've listened uh open debate uh that can be uh you know in a conversation uh that that attempts to be kind listening and I've listened to other you know podcasts both for and against since then but that has been a common denominator that um debate is not a bad word you know and uh and that we can have differing opinions and share them and disagree and and even engage in um in kind debate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I mean I've seen I've seen and heard uh incredible incredible thoughts you know like you said both both for uh for and against and and what and what what it boils down to is that you know he was an incredibly complex person personality uh and and there's and and the and I think one of the big challenges we're faced with right now is that our information streams um don't allow us to really veer into that complexity. It keeps us in one space or the other and so it keeps us either you know seeing seeing the sense of you know seeing and hearing the things that would cause us to you know uh have great pause and great reservation about his legacy or seeing and hearing the things that would cause us to venerate you know and and treat his legacy as almost is near is near spotless you know and and and there's like there's like a lot of there's a lot of gray in the middle of that but our our information streams are so vastly different that we never get a chance to veer to the gray and it's to our detriment it's to our division that that that that transpires and and you know to your point about the debate piece I think that's one of the things that I'm most alarmed by right now in this cultural moment is that we don't have the capacity like we should and we're losing the appetite for healthy dialogue for healthy you know uh not even necessarily debate but discourse you know um you know as image bearers being able to agree to disagree being able to acknowledge when hey you went and concede when you make a point you know because it goes all the way back to what we were just talking about earlier. We've gotten to the point where we can't even concede with one another because if I concede, what is my team going to think? You know what are what are the guys that are behind me that are rooting rooting me on what are they going to think if I concede that point? I can't concede that point to John I got to just you know I just got to bear down and just act like John didn't make a great point when he made a great point. And I just feel like more than anything if we can't learn how to have dialogue and discourse and and with humility where we acknowledge one another whether we make a good point or not I just feel I just feel like the the the journey to unity becomes that much more difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think I think too often and and look we can think this now I mean in in any public discourse that is you know promoted out now in the world I mean we always think what are the optics of this yes everybody's thinking that what are the optics of this yes uh whether it's uh whether it's the truth or not maybe whether it's really what we believe and I think that's a contribution from you know you don't blame everything on social media but but at the same time you're thinking so much you know how am I perceived in this I mean it's training us to think everything about how and that's why you know authenticity is so refreshing when you really see it. You know like you know you can tell like they just they just don't care. They were authentic in the moment and uh and weren't weren't as concerned.
SPEAKER_00:So um yeah you know going back to uh uh the debate piece too the the other thing is and I don't know where this come from you can't blame social media on this but making the other the other is not the enemy either you know right I mean we we worship we haven't even gone into this but you know we worship at a cafe or brasserie you know owned by Muslims from Algeria very different in in just about every way and and we do love them and they do love us and we have built a relationship um that that's really a beautiful thing you know across uh not just me I'm talking about me my family but many in our our church family as well and that they would defend us and they don't speak English so we communicate in French together but uh yeah I mean I've learned a lot from them as well and uh the other does not mean the other is not a bad thing the other is is definitely not the enemy and so um you know they may they may have a lot of aspects and um and attributes that you can look at yeah john john I think I think that what you just articulated there ties very much back to this sentiment that you had articulated earlier in terms of by being in a space where the Christianity is not the uh all-encompassing you know force right but but you are in a space with diverse people diverse groups from different walks of life different backgrounds I think there's something cultivated in you where you where you learn how to navigate through those differences with a little bit more skill and a and a and a little bit more care uh versus when you're in a space where Christianity is the dominant expression it's just easy to kind of bulldoze over everybody else right or exclude yourself from everybody else right but when but when you when you are 5,000 amongst millions it's yeah you you have you have to cross through these other spaces you have to engage these other people and you learn how to do that with with with genuine respect and regard uh for for for those individuals as image bearers right because at the end of the day like you said uh yeah we yeah we may we may um have differences of opinion and those differences could have eternal consequences I mean that's why you're in France to to minister uh to those eternal consequences right but at the same time even with those eternal consequences the reality is is that you are an image bearer and thus you deserve the affirmation of the dignity that it that goes with being that image bearer.
SPEAKER_01:Yes that we are uh the Mago Day every human being is is made in the image of God you know every every every human life and also let me let me be very uh clear and specific on on this too you know we're not saying that everyone needs to you know pack up be a missionary longer term I mean I think Mission Mississippi here you know offers many opportunities you know whether it's uh you know collective prayer or partner churches or that you can go into different cultural contexts you know locally and also I mean I love the short-term missions that uh churches do as well you know we led several efforts to Honduras and India that were very you know rewarding um to to allow people you know to have a an opportunity for for a short season you know both to be part of of worship and ministry in different cultural contexts and also to begin to developing you know you know that nuance towards uh towards towards the non-Christians towards the others so I just really encourage you know both churches locally and uh you know and internationally you know to engage in those opportunities and I think uh many churches you know provide them you know throughout our our region awesome awesome John um anybody that wants to keep up with you and the uh incredible missionary work that you're doing uh over in Paris and France do you have some ways for people to do that? Yes they could um so a couple ways first we do leverage social media our church is on Instagram and Facebook at EIC and that's a manual international church EIC Reeve Gauche uh we have a website that's eicparis.org and then we have a a personal blog that we open up about challenges of missionary life in the called the Tates in Paris but that is that's more personal family ministry that my wife and I write and then uh our church is EIC Reeves Gauche EIC ReevGosh uh Instagram Paris and then EIC Paris is dot org is the website.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome awesome you can also keep up with John's writings every week because he still after all these years uh shares uh his gifting with Mission Mississippi by providing uh our weekly word which is a uh word of encouragement around uh prayer and reconciliation and and continue and continued growth in the unity that God has established for us through Christ and so anytime you get a Mission Mississippi newsletter and you see a weekly word it is because John Hugh Tate has crafted that and so that's another way that you can keep up with what John's doing in ministry as well. So man John brother I'm grateful for you uh glad that you're over uh over uh here on this side of the water for a little while and I'm praying uh rest and relaxation and recovery for you and I'll pray the Lord continues to bless you richly man and the work that you're doing in Paris France man.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you brother and thankful for you and your leadership with Mission Mississippi and have loved this conversation and uh we'll continue talking but uh just thankful for this ministry and and all it means both in this state and and across the world.
SPEAKER_00:Amen blesses to you and to those that are listening uh today again we want to thank you guys feel free to like share subscribe you can go to any podcast app in order to find us uh you can go to missionmississippi.org in order to find us and also feel free to share uh with other uh other friends and family members this podcast this podcast episode but just this podcast in general we would love for you to get the word out and spread it um as we navigate through reconciliation and all of its different branches uh including the branches that show up in Paris France uh on behalf of my friend John Hutate I'm Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless thanks for joining Living Reconciled if you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured please visit us online at missionmississippi dot or g or call us at six oh one three five three six four seven seven thanks again for listening
