EP. 223 Hardcore Hog Dogs

We have on an OG of the hog dog social media world, Mr. Michael Spiehler of Hardcore Hog Dogs! A nice casual yet in depth conversation this is one you don't want to miss!

https://hardcorehogdogs.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

relationships because people's always got what they wanted. So when things get tough and either the the male or fe husband or wife don't get what they want, they d they don't know how to handle it.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Oh it's yeah. Yeah, you could definitely say that. We uh we had a few years that was really, really good for us. And the last last about three have been pretty dead gum tough, you know. And and my I'm guilty of of uh I guess you're saying get whatever whenever you need it, just get it, get it, whatever after we got older. And I've had to deal with that even with my wife, you know, it's like look you got to slow down. You know, you get I mean like we've had arguments and stuff, you know, everybody everybody's got, you know, when you've been married for 20 plus years. But it's like, hey, just because we can doesn't mean we should. Yeah. Because like we don't know what's gonna happen. I mean you know with the economy and the way the president and all that stuff. I mean yeah well we don't never know. It changes so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

I just don't look I was retiring and at 50 I had done decided I was going to retire at 50 and uh I was just going to take the 15% loss on my income and I figured I I alright I could have just put more time in the business and made it up um pretty easy. And and uh but when all that uh cost of living went through the roof about three years ago or four years ago like when stuff was doubling I said woo I got to thinking about man I live to be 80 I might need that 15%.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Well that's what like I went back full time as I can get you know well grandbabies stuff like that you know it's like I definitely cannot retire. I was retired you know I was like I am retired uh I had gone probably three years and didn't take any major jobs or anything and I was like I'm just hunting and traveling yeah hemorrhaging money is what I was doing spending a shit ton of it and then it's like you know I could just scrape by and I still do I mean I still do but it's like I got everything paid for so I could I could do another 10 hard years and and and try to try to be okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

Well with us um with the government you got a pension that'll come in for the rest of your life um and everything's paid for so my thought is if as long as that's that's gonna come in so that will cover all your basic needs. You know my house is paid for all that so I got to pay taxes pay food pay electricity bills and then I can take and hustle this stuff or whatever or um hustle those hats or whatever I want to do to make as much extra money as I want to do or or or hunt as much as I want. But I do want to travel um I mean I've traveled hunting but I want to travel to sightsee. Yeah um when I get retired I want to go and like make a whole just like three months go around the country and just no schedule no nothing just me and Tiffany.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Yeah I'm gonna tell you it's uh I done it with with somewhat of a schedule and I didn't go around the whole U.S. you know but I mean I covered a lot of ground in like 2022 23 and those those couple years there all the way up to the first part of 24 or middle of 24 I didn't miss any bays at all for for two years straight not one whether it was Oklahoma Nixon Texas Georgia where it didn't matter you know we were going and not just that we were traveling and going hunting as well yeah and it it was it was literally one of the the best times of my life yeah um and that the trick on that this and this is just my problem is if you ain't got somebody that can go we can go like a buddy or something oh yeah it's just hard to do by yourself.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

It is um you know like we got lucky when we was filming and doing that doing all them hunts and trips kind of the same principle you just said traveling hunting. I had two or three buddies went on their own business and one worked for the government like I did so he could get off anytime he wanted and you know we was able to to do a lot of that um now they've all got families and this and that or don't hunt no more and um it's it's hard to get people to make a trip. Yes because they can't they can't get away from work for a week. Yeah and I I'm I can't be the job I got that's why I stayed it didn't pay the best but I said if I want off tomorrow if you if you call and say man I got the best place I've ever seen to hunt let's hunt it for three days. Yeah I can call tomorrow and say hey I I'm off next three days. See that's right that yeah you know and and that's why they said man why you you stay there I said well I can get I get off I get five weeks of vacation two weeks of sick time and I think it's I don't know twenty something days of holidays damn yeah I start playing that thing around and and when I'm trying I'm playing my trips around it if I'm gonna be have like a long weekend stuff I use eight hours of vacation I go hunt for four days. Yeah but like I said you can't hold it it's hard to get people that can go with you and just drop and go stuff.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

That that's why me and Rodney were able to do it because his schedule if he plays his right just like you're talking about he can take off one day and actually be off for nine yeah you know the way a schedule works you know and and that's not that's not vacation days that's just because he's he's on five and off five yeah or something like that or maybe it's on five off two on two off five something crazy.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

It ain't just planning your bac your trip around his and me working for myself I can just be like hey I ain't I'm I'm gonna go do this you know well that my buddy Jay in South Carolina he owns two businesses but that's I mean he's sometimes he's got to be there but yeah with any type of planning he can say hey we can go for four days you know five days and uh but uh my buddy Jim that used to do all that he got married and all that and uh and and kind of got out of hall company so he don't he used to tag along with me more than he's probably anybody yeah I understand it's it's one of the things like I mean some people you know some of us just gonna do it forever.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah it's just it's honestly it's just our life and then there's other people where it's like you know it it consumes them for for many years and then there's a point where they're like hey man I I'm out you know and and there's been times where I've I've talked to some of the guys that that that I started hunting with when I first started and I was like I can't believe you quit you know is what I'm thinking. But then I look at their life as well and I'm like I understand you know their their kids didn't go hunt with them their wife wasn't interested in that or they had to do something different they had to make some more money you know put their kids through school and college and or or whatever. And and so you're like you know you got to understand that but me I'm I'm just a dumbass and I'm like no I'll just hemorrhage money on this stupid shit you know keep well I tell you what gets people around here and it it gets me there's no places to hunt around here.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

Yeah and it it is physically ex mentally I guess you would say exhausting trying to keep places to hunt.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

You know 20 years ago it wasn't that hard.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

No. Where I live all the and I think I've told you this all the good land is government land you can hunt it one month. So there's all kinds of people get in it because they want to hunt the government land but once that that closes they have no place to go so they outlaw. Yep. They go hunt little 20 acre blocks and you know get on other people's property and they got access.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

That's all they're getting is access.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Yeah and I mean even that's hard to come by you've got to drive about an hour north of me hour and a half to get into decent honey land that's got reasonable halts and acreage. Yeah you're further south ain't you yeah I'm uh I'm right on the north side of the lake on on now there's marshland everywhere south of me but you who you gotta be I was I used to could hunt it but you you got on an airboat to hunt it and and uh it's just it's hard to get on. And I've got some buddies that access to it but um you know like I said it's just it's a constant battle for land around here because there's just not there's more hunters than there is land.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah and and I'm glad we we don't really have that problem right now. But it's it's coming.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Well them boys the them boys like Kenneth and stuff y'all hunting with I am envious of them and the land they have oh bro me too yeah it's and look and not only the land but how all the Hulk hunters are on the same page even the ones that they feed but they don't like each other. They're on the same page um you know there's not John going around killing everything. They're all barring working hulks they they all look at it like the old timers it it is a really neat thing. And that big timberland they got up there is just endless. So and there's just enough land for all the guys to have lots of spots to hunt.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Well like I said when we were there it just like you said there we were at one spot the second day we hunted and that's when we were over at uh at Charlie Nims and we were over at that farm hunted dogs got off the property and was on the other side a little bit if I'm not mistaken. And anyway and another gentleman he owns that side he picked the dogs up and brought them back up there to us and was like y'all you know come right over here I posted a video of him talking and just we just sat there on side road and talked and they were all working together. Yeah like here they would have been like calling the game board and freaking out and I'm like you know no nobody we're all on the same team. Yeah you know we're all playing the same game uh and now don't get me wrong I'm not gonna go turn loose on somebody's spot that's right you know uh but if I'm over here hunting and my dogs then traveled a mile two miles whatever and they get over on your spot and I call you or text you and say hey man I got dogs over there you know I I would appreciate the response to be you know hey man go get your dogs y'all be safe yeah you know I now I'm not asking to go over there and tie your hog up and tote it out or kill your hog and bring it out I'm not a I'm never gonna ask that. I have had them say hey y'all go ahead and take care of that stone gun lay in there and and that's fine. But it could be reciprocated as well.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

When somebody calls and says hey ma'am or if I see I there's been times where I've seen a dog on camera and and I I wasn't for sure whose it was but I texted this one guy I was in Texas and he said man he said I think she's across the line I said well I got her on camera he said man I'm so sorry I said no no I said I'm calling to tell you where the key's at yeah well and the thing is if we're on a he still wouldn't even go he would not go in there I said he called his dog out I said go get the damn hog and you know if you're over there and you're on a club and you're on 3,000 acres and you get on the next piece of property okay that happens but you know if you over there and you own five acres yeah yeah you're hunting my you're hunting my land you know you know you know there's a difference uh that's a big big difference yeah same way with with uh some of that that competition land and people find out we got good hogs over there and they'll get as close as they can to turn out for them.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

That's exactly right we had a a friend of mine didn't stab them see and that's that to me that don't make much I mean if you got to bring them in for a tournament okay I get that you know if if if I was gonna if I was gonna slip and go get something it would be for the tournament. I wouldn't just catch them and and stick them just for the sake of do catching a big hog that's stupid if I hunt tournaments.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Yeah well I they're I guess to take pictures of them I don't I don't know I don't know I asked them I said man why they killed them hogs oh oh we yeah we and they do they run a lot of rough dogs and and a lot of them um you know they they is old wolf dogs and they walk through there and then things catch and there's there's eight of them hanging off that thing. Tear them all to pieces we used to run some rough dogs you you had to get this quick but I also learned them hogs that survive a lot more than you think they if they will.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Amen they surely will all right well we listen for the listeners out there I hit the record button a little few minutes ago while a lot of times we get going on these conversations and and I and I missed some of the best parts of it but we've got Mr Michael from Hardcore Hog Dogs on here tonight with us.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

And uh he is going to tell us some of the truth and a bunch of that's probably not the truth uh mainly bullshit a lot of it I I have a feeling so I'd like to welcome him to the show tonight and uh I've been trying to get him on here for a long time and we just never can make it line up but he made it happen today thank the good lord so Mr Michael tell these folks where you're from and how you got into this yeah I'm from Louisiana um the real reason we haven't been able to get together because I've been preparing these lies for two years. It takes time so we've got some good ones uh but no um we got into this when I was a kid my dad done it when I was little um really the whole family had some type of hunting dogs dad had uh hog dogs my grandpa had fox and deer hounds so kind of raised in it um and for some reason I just I really like the hog dogs and as I got to old enough to do it on my own um I run deer dogs and hog dogs and they kind of phased out deer hunting around here as the properties got smaller so um you know I still run hog dogs and try to do it every day if I can.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Mm-hmm and so you how how long have you uh had the the business going as as far as the cut gear stuff?

SPEAKER_04 15:32

So the name come around rang around 1999. Um and how that come up that was kind of just an accident uh back then they they had catch competitions and um hey we was 19 year old kids me and a buddy and uh we went to one of them and run our little dog and um yeah didn't do good doing so on didn't really understand how it worked but everybody there had them a little kennel name or something so me and him started brainstorming and actually a boy he worked up come up with the name Hardcore Hog Dog. So next one we went to we you know we was hardcore hog dogs and just so happened we won just about everything there at the second one we went to um so it kind of stuck and we went back the next week and won everything again and and um and really liked him pretty familiar with the black yeah so still do so that yeah well it kind of stuck and um then we started I guess you called the actual hardcore hog dog bit business I had a comp a business called Truewoods um still do but I was raising back when you didn't have hunting on the the TV or on the phone at all times you actually waited to deer season and the new buckmasters come out or real true. So I that's what I come up in my teen years. So we wanted to film and all that stuff because we grew up watching those guys and uh so that's what we started doing. And in uh I think it was the year of Katrina I decided I wanted to do a fog dog video because there was nothing out there really that showed the catches. And uh it just so happened I messed met one of my better friends that year which was uh Jay Hicks and uh we decided to do it or I decided to do it and he said I'll help you out any way I can and we started traveling and trying to film stuff and it took us about 18 months or so 15 months to film the first one I edited myself uploaded it on YouTube it done a million views and and they just started selling like crazy and uh so we started working on another one of course and the second one we uploaded which took another year but it done like six million views and we just sold the heck out of them so we said hey we'll start a website for these DVDs and then we started putting uh okay we got a website let's put some uh leads on there so if a guy buys a dvd he can buy leads well let's put this or that and and we actually tried to stay out of the cut gear business um and just we there it wasn't being done the way I thought it should be done and uh customers wasn't being taken care of we was trying to help other companies and uh so it just so happened the day I and it this is funny how things work. The day I decided I was gonna make get in the cut gear my buddy Jay same same buddy called he said hey you ever need Kevlar I got a buddy that can get you Kevlar um within hours of me deciding that I said yep um we started making the cut gear and and uh started trying to make everything lighter uh you know easier to move in and stronger and it took off and I guess we've been making cut gear for 20 plus years now.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Hell yeah that's pretty cool it uh because I I can remember when the first video came out I had been I had been hunting uh hunt just getting into it you know and because like where where I was raised there was guys that hunted and they that they ran dogs and stuff but I moved when I was in my teens and I moved to Alabama and there was nobody doing it here. Now down South Alabama they were but where we're at like there was nothing here. No no hogs and uh I seen that video there there was a few hogs like around Tuscaloosa down there in the river bottom and and then of course up in Bankhead National Forest which is above us and so that's where the guy that started me hunting that's where he started hunting just walking through the forest up there and I messaged him I said hey you seen this video he said no it's on YouTube. He said what the hell is YouTube I don't know somebody sent this to me like or told me to look it up I was like okay because I mean back then we had cell phones uh I think I still had two-way radios next to hell that's right and uh we looked it up and I was like look at these hillbillies I said there's nothing wrong with these boys I stay out there videoing this shit they're gonna get in trouble because like we legal like there was no law for us here at that time but like we weren't supposed to hunt management area and that's the only place we had to hunt. So we thought we thought everywhere was like that. So I was like they're gonna go to jail.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Well the the year we started doing that was the year they in Louisiana started opening some of the the management areas. Oh well and and actually the first year they only opened two and the local WMA was one of them. That was had to be like 06, 07 it was the year Katrina hit I'd have to look that up 05, 0605 yeah okay that's about right I think I seen it in like seven or eight was when I seen the video. Okay. Yeah and uh we was kind of what I did different I really try to not make it about us out we wouldn't use a video unless you could see the catch. Um and uh I actually made a lot of mistakes doing that because I let's just say we videoed a hole for tw 20 minutes trying to get the right angle and we send the catch dogs and he moved and we missed the catch. I would just delete all the foot And be mad. And uh I should have been uploading all that stuff. But like when we was doing that, we had no idea what we were doing. We was just filming stuff and and editing it and putting out the the best footage we could. And at that time, you couldn't see that footage on your phone. Uh or there was was no uh Facebooks or um stuff like that. And uh so when we started making those DVDs, when people saw them, that a lot of them that was the first time they had saw bay catch footage like that. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yep.

unknown 22:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

I mean now you can see you can see it everywhere. It's on on TikTok or Instagram or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

But all we had was rough dogs. And we and it was so thick, you know, we never got to see bays or anything. So uh w when you were doing that, when when I watched that video. So after that, we we were like, how can we see our our dogs work in the woods? Because sometimes we would have a these some of them jags, they would bay on a real big hog that was just they couldn't hold. Yeah. And uh that's the first time I went to Hickory Crossing. And I went solely so I could watch my dogs bay a hog and see how they worked. And now look at look at what y'all did to me. Ruined my life.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

What we had to do was leave about half the pack home um because we had some rough dogs then. And Eevee, the bay dolls were pretty rough. You had to get it which you wanted to anyway for the footage, but you had to get on a pretty good hog to make those bay, make them bae. Um, and evie, if you watch some of them old videos, most of them hogs would be sitting down after a little while because they would just work them so hard. And um, but like I said, that would that was an important thing, and and I that's honestly what pushed me to looser dogs. And then the more I'd done that, the more I enjoyed the bay, like you're saying, and then the the more we had enjoyed dog work more than just the catch. Um, because when we was young, it was just about catch as many as we could as fast as we could. Oh, yeah. Um, and now it's more about getting the dogs to work and how how good they work and and so on.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Well, you know, you hear a lot of guys that's our age and older complain about these younger fellas, not just younger, but uh newer hunters. And and and the first thing they do is come they bitch about, well, all they're doing is catching hogs. We did the same thing. Yeah, we just didn't have social media to show it. That's correct. And and I mean honestly, I probably would have, and I was at one time. I I show I never did show the dogs beat up though, because I from the game dog world, and like uh your dogs just ain't nobody's business. I showed dogs, but I never would show the dogs much. But but we did the same thing, and you you get to that point to where you've done it long enough, and it's like you said, it's more about watching how good a dog can work.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Yeah, and when we was younger, we we was a lot rougher on the holds, but there wasn't as many hunters. Um and as the the hunter population has grown, um, and the traps and and night vision and everything that's come along. Um so and the s the land has gotten a lot smaller, like we was talking about earlier. Um it it's become hogs good hog hunting spots and stuff is very valuable. So you uh we do a lot more managing and taking care of hog population and trying to get big hogs. We almost treat them like deer. Um but that's why we're able to to do really good with with big hogs because heck 20 years ago a big hog around here was 200 pounds.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Um and you know, we catch a lot of 250s, 280s now. Um and it's like I said, it's the same process or principle as growing big deer. It's AIDS, genetics, and food.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

And you know, people don't they don't look into that um or look at that side of it until until there's a reason, until they start losing properties or the the hog population starts to dwindle down pretty bad. Um what what do you suggest to to some of these guys that that's got some property with good genetics? How how do you go about managing your herd?

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Like I said, I really treat them like like deer. Um we try to keep good food there. Um you gotta keep the population down, um, which is you have to kill hogs, depending on how much food you got. And and we're talking about land that that isn't uh farmland, of course. Um if you hunt in farmland, you just gotta kill everything because they tear up so much. But um, but yeah, it's the same principle. You you gotta let the the ones with better genetics get to age and um, you know, like I said, have good food around there and not have so many that the little hogs are eating up all the food. It it's the exact same principle as is trying to grow big deer.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Mm-hmm. Gotcha. So on the uh now as far as managing your herd like that, how what would you say your ratio is on your uh bars and bores?

SPEAKER_04 27:46

So we don't bore bar a lot of hogs around here. Okay. Not that I don't want to or wouldn't like to. Um it's just they kill them so bad around here that uh I mean we just don't mess with a lot of bores because a lot of places we we catch them, we have to kill them. So we what we do is work cameras a lot and manage the holes with the cameras. And that way when it it comes time to catch the big holes, we can. Um you know, you you you can't turn a lot of holes loose and that kind of stuff. You just gotta to go after the right holes, is I guess is what I'm trying to say. And uh, you know, our bigger holes around here, I don't mess with very much until it it until I need to catch them. And uh and he, you know, we've talked over the years, you've saw pictures of me watching them, uh I've sent you. Oh yeah. Where why we we we might watch a hole for six, seven months before we go catching. And uh Kenneth and M came and hunted with me uh two years ago and we we caught six big hogs and won the pilots for patients hunt. And um younger kid Dawson that was come with him, he said, I cannot believe you watched them hogs for six months and never went and caught them. He said, I would have never been able to. But I mean, you know, when it was time we went, we went and caught them, and that's that was the only way we could win. Um because with 200 pound hauls, we wouldn't have won. Um and I think those hogs averaged around that 230, 240 mark. Um which it is funny uh to talking about competition. You used to in Texas when we hunted them competitions over there, you could win them all day with 250 pound averages. I see 280 and 290s winning now. Oh, in Louisiana, you could win all day with a 200-pound, a 220-pound average. It it's taking 240s to 250s to win Louisiana tournaments now.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Out there, the the borebash that we've been doing with with boars and broads, you know, uh the last couple years. It it started out as a Tulsa standard hunt, you know, and then it was changed to the Borebacks. But for the last three years or three out of four years, I believe, uh South Carolina crews has won it. Desmond Hood and Lucas Scott now. And it's been over a 300 average. Yeah, like I I'm talking about some they have, and they'll bring a kicker in that's gonna be you know, 330 to 350 big good teeth. I mean and the the very first one or two that we've done, I you know, I told everybody I said, well using that big board score changed a lot of that. It really did. It put it more on a good playing field. So the 260, 270, 280. They could still compete with the 300, 320s if they had good teeth. Yeah, you know, and that's where a lot of folks really they like that. Uh but I think I have seen the the weight averages really, really change just in in the past five years. So it's doing the same thing down there.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

Yeah, and people learn how to hunt on my is what I say. They uh yeah, that's what I think. And they, you know, they stop uh yeah, you know, whether it's a big hog that uh, you know, they look at and they see and they instead of going and catching that week, they wait three months to to that tournament.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Uh and you know, as big as that hunt's becoming over on that side, those boys are paying attention to those hogs for months. And and uh Lucas and Desmond and them, I I talked with them pretty much every January at the Grand American. And um, you know, they show me pictures and stuff right before that month. I mean, they've got some all goodness. And they've got some good land to hunt. And uh, and what's funny, we've been trying to hunt that hunt, I think for four years now. Um, I can tell you, I we tried to do it the year before y'all started to do the big boar score. And uh we I just kept track of it and uh we we would have won it that year if we'd have done it.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yeah, I think that was the first one because we hunted.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

We caught a bunch of big sows that that weekend because we go go up there and hunt that around the same time every year, um, two or three times. So uh because their deer season closes before ours does over here, so we all get together and some friends, and so uh the the next year I I we've tried to put it together and it just never come together. Um, and where we hunting, it's over there in north part of Georgia. There's big holes, but it's sandy soil, so that they do break their tusk off a lot. Um, but we thought we had it finally put together to hunt it last year and done had everything planned out. Um heck, I think I had talked to Ryan and told him we were gonna hunt it, if I'm not mistaken. And um the the younger boy Will that we hunt with a lot, he called me about two or three weeks before the tournament and he said, Man, I don't know what to do. I said, What are you talking about? I said, he said, Well, I want to hunt that tournament. We done kind of planned it. He said, but uh another guy that hunts with us had done promise some people from Kentucky, I think I could be wrong on that, that if they could come down and hunt the same weekend and we was gonna catch them some hogs and uh let them kill some hogs and stuff. I said, Well, it ain't but one thing to do. If he made a promise and we're gonna keep it, that's what we're gonna do. And uh, so that's what we did. And I'm gonna be honest, I'm glad we didn't get in the tournament. Um because we did not catch big hogs that weekend. Um we got on little hogs and and so on, so I guess it worked out, but we I want to hunt that hunt. It it's a well put together hunt, and uh I think we we're already trying to put together something for next year. We'll we'll see if it falls out. It's just hard to get it's hard to get five four, five, six people lined up.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah, and I mean it's how far from y'all? Ten hours?

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Yeah, now we was gonna we was trying to go over there on it. But um, yeah, I'm gonna say it's eight from us.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Um about yeah, eight cousins. And I think I was trying to think, I was trying to think how far I was from you. I think I think we're about five hours, four and a half, five hours from where you live at, and from where I live at to theirs about four and a half.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

I know to get to like Waynesboro and uh Augusta and all that's that eight to nine hours.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

But now you'll be coming straight across that the bottom side of Alabama.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Yeah, and if you wouldn't have to come straight up and over and all that shit. So now that's the I mean it's still like you said, you that's one reason why I don't really hunt a lot of tournaments because going to other states, you know, that to me that's the only option. Uh you know, I I'm not gonna risk it to hunt here and then travel. I'm just not gonna do it. Yeah. Uh I know I know there's some that have. And hey, my hat's off to you, brother, whatever. Uh I'm not doing it. And it's hard to put together a whole crew and try to make all of it work in another state.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

So I definitely understand you.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

The way they allow dead halls, um that it makes it a lot easier for these guys to come from other states. Oh, yeah. Um most of the ones in Louisiana are all live hog tournaments. Um, so uh it's a lot harder. Uh well, all of them have rules that you can't you have to hunt in Louisiana because you to keep from breaking laws. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

That that's the thing. Uh there's there you there used to be one or two here in Alabama, and that's why it was they had to hunt in Alabama. And and you know, you hear people complain, they're like, well, they ain't they don't get but six or eight teams in it. I'm like, well because other people, you know, they're not traveling across state lines. Yeah. And you just don't have property running out your ears to go hunting. You know, I guess if there was if there was public access to some of these, I think I feel like there would definitely be more. You know, people would take a shot at it. Uh come hunt it.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

But I would uh with all these public lands, I always wish they would start one where you you you hunt it on public land and kind of put everybody on the same um same land. It that would be neat to me just because it put everybody on the same level and then you would start separating dog really separating dog power.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Mm-hmm. Speaking of dogs, uh what kind of dogs do you prefer to run? Now, I know you said you used to have rough dogs, and I and I know about what you're running, but you know, for the listeners out there, tell them what I was doing.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

So I we try to run uh if I had to put it in in fractions, it would be three-quarter cur dogs with about a quarter walker dog in them. Um now there's dogs out there with a touch of plod in them, there's dogs out there with a touch of bird dog in them. Uh uh, there's two out there with a touch of blue tick in them, but the the mass majority of them, if you had to break them down, are are quarter hound, mostly walker, and uh then uh three-quarter curve. Gotcha. And that seems to work for how I like to hunt. I run a lot of cast dogs and uh uh run try to run them as tight mouth as possible, though some will give out a a little bit of mouth. Um and I do have right now, I I have uh two walker dogs in a July out there. Um just that come from Mr. John, just playing with them, you know, just something to play with. Um and they will make some noise, that's for sure. But yeah, it's I I grew up around my grandpa, had over a hundred head of walker dogs, so I am kind of fond of them. And they just got a drive that is insane. And I'm talking about running walkers, but um it, you know, when I I've heard you tell stories about uh the little uh what is it, Rick Dog y'all got? Yeah, and uh and you know, some of the stories, I'm like, yep, that's what they do, you know. Um that's what oh they do. So I don't want all that miles, but I do like to cross a little of it in them dogs to get some of those traits for sure.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Yeah, that's I I've had a lot of people contact me about that. Um and and and they're wanting that particular type dog, and I'm like, look, that's not how all of them are, but you can get those characteristics and traits and breed them. Honestly, I would it I want I'm putting him over a cur dog and and I'm probably gonna breed it down to about a quarter. You know, because like you said, you you know what the full-blooded ones do. Yeah. And I've had I went with people years ago who had whole packs of them and I didn't really care for running eight or ten dogs at one time. So I was like, I mean, now don't get me wrong, I can sit there on tailgate listening to them hammer all day long. But with with this one that I got, I found he could do it by itself. So I was like, okay, well, we'll work with this. That's right. And and I put a young dog with him when we go hunting. I change them up too, and he keeps them cur dogs kicked on out younger. And they're still tight-mouthed.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

So well, and that's that's what I've been doing with these a little. I'm I've actually been using them to run young dogs with. There you go. And the thing about it is they make so much noise. If he wants to run, if if the young dog wants to run, he has no excuse for not being in the race. If he comes out, it says he does not want to be in the race. Because it what the problem we have with them tight-mouth dogs trying to work young dogs is if they got confused, they just got left.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

And so the two things we we really find them messing with these open-mouth dogs to train is like I just said, they can stay with them. And two, they do push the hog more, um, plain and simple. Oh, that's a fact. I mean, that's 100%. And this is the the catch 22 to that. It's a bad thing if you're trying to catch hogs. It can be a good thing if you're trying to train dogs.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Oh, it's yeah, without a doubt. I think it's worked out better for me personally, for us, to have him to train with than to actually catch hogs. Because, like, I all joking aside, with one dog like that by itself, he don't really put enough pressure on him and he don't give enough mouth to really push them hard. But he, I mean, they will go. You know, he's still gonna move them, but he's fast enough, he can get ahead of them. Well, once you put four or five like that, and that, and they're gonna, they're gonna push the hog. But I was always told, and I I'm sure you've heard the same thing, if you put a dog in that race, like a puppy, say a puppy or a young dog, and all those dogs are open, that puppy's gonna be open too. Not these. Mine ain't.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

I I don't think that's a hundred percent rough rule. I don't either. I think I think some dogs are gonna be open no matter what. Some are gonna be closed no matter what. Some, like we had some half, some bred halves, like half walkers. Them were on the line where I think that could be true. And you you you could uh you could get them to open more. But like I said, when you got to them quarters and or and so on, and I'm I'm really settling on the three-eighths. Like I like I said, I had a lot of quarters, but I I think that three-eighths is gonna be exactly where I want to be. Um but I used to be scared to death of that too. And and like I said, I think if them dogs are bred right and they're and they want to be closed-mouthed, they're it's not gonna be so easy. Like I said, when them dogs were half, I had to stay away from open-mouth dogs. But these dogs that are eighth and quarters, I'm not having that trouble with them. I can run them with them open-mouth dogs. And the other day I turned loose that July, and they hooked a hole, and he ran it for four hours, and a year old puppy, his second time in the woods, run it for four hours with him.

unknown 43:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

And uh, you know, he I'm like I said, and I really didn't want him to run that long because uh I I he's still young, but um like I said, he he wanted to be there and he had no problem staying there because if he got thrown, all he had to do was run back to the market.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Now that you is he, is that one of your crosses there?

SPEAKER_04 43:31

So he's got some uh my stuff in or no, I'm lying. So that one there is got uh some of my buddy Jay's stuff in there.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

Some uh the Amker stuff in him. Yeah. Then uh uh uh I think he's got a quarter, if I'm not mistaken, of uh some of Francis Spears stuff in it. Um, which Francis got his own stuff as as as crossing the the Amiker stuff too, and he's got some nice dogs. The dog's got really nice dogs bred in him from from multiple sides.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

Um and uh and like I said, those little lines. Uh and that's kind of what's happened here. Uh Mr. Ronnie, who he who just passed away, started letting them dogs get uh out about 10 years ago. And what seems to happen is everybody who had a you know fairly nice set of dogs that have been breeding their self have kind of crossed into them. Um and and I mean the the dogs are if when they're bred right are making pretty nice dogs. They they mature really fast. Um they got a lot of bottom, uh, a lot of speed, they're big dogs. So and and a high percentage of them turn out. I actually got two puppies on the ground that are half my old stuff, um, which which is my quarter stuff, and then they're bred into Mr. Ronnie's stuff. And uh I've been trying to make that breeding for three years, and we finally got puppies this this year, which are only a week old. But with fingers crossed, we're we're bottle feeding them trying trying to make sure that they live along the way.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

You got them here anyway. You know, that's the biggest part is getting them. You know, to be able to get them bred up.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

Now those oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. It's our fourth time trying that breeding.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Um, and I I'm two C-sections into it. Uh it's it's uh it's one of them jokes, you know, we joke about it, but they gotta be good if they're this much trouble to raise, you know. You can't hurt a sorry one.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

Oh, hell no. You you get one that you know everything goes great and it don't get sick, or you ain't you ain't sitting up all night with it, or trying to put it back together, or you ain't run over it, or something happened, that dog ain't gonna be worth a damn.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

From the start, it seems like they I've been I've been so nervous with these that we kept out of the the couple of litters we bred up. Uh, because man, everything has really gone pretty good. And and they're and they're doing really, really good in the woods. I'm like, well, they're probably just gonna cut the switch off. You know, there something happened.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Well, I just to go over what happened with these dogs. Um I had two females, which uh the the blue one was my best female. She was a a really nice dog. Um really nice dog, and the the sister was a good dog. And I bred I bred the the blue jib to miss one of Miss Ronnie's dogs. She didn't take. We had a tournament coming up a few months later, and I took her to a spot of never run her to exercise her. She got run over. So I sat the sit the sister ain't hunted in two years. I set the sister up next time she comes and he I bred her. We had her here. She had trouble having the puppies, had two of the biggest, beautiful puppies you ever seen in your life. The actual biggest puppies I had ever seen in my life, but they were still born. I think she just had trouble having them. Bred her again, went and paid for a C-section, had two puppies, um, and they were both born. They had uh some some issues, and uh, they did not make it spread her a fourth time, and that's the puppies we have to this time. So far they look healthy. Um, but I mean that just it's it's crazy. And she's the last female of that breeding, which is out off some a dog, old dog we call Cup, um, that was a half walker dog, half her dog, it was a really nice dog. And so it's and she's getting old, she's nine, ten, eleven years old, I have to look it up. So there ain't been so many, there's not but so many times I'm gonna have to have to get this line. And if I if if we don't get her bred and get puppies raised off of her, then that line's gone. Um, and that's the best line I've raised. Um, they that every dog's ever come out of that line has been at least the average dog, and there's been multiple really nice dogs that's come out of that line.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Yeah, there you go. There you go. I was talking with a guy earlier from uh out in Texas, uh, and and we were talking about crosses and stuff like that, and he's been he's only had purebred stuff, and he said, Man, I I'm just he said it's almost like they're missing something. Yeah, and he got he's he's got a plot that that he's purchased or got a hold of. And I told him he's like, Well, what what do you think? I was like, uh listen, I'd cross everything on the yard if if I thought that that's gonna make because we're making hog dogs here. I said, but once you get what you want and you you have a male and a female, then you then you start working on it. You know, I said, but if you don't have nothing to start with, don't start breeding a bunch of junk up. You know? Yeah, and that's you gotta have something good to start with, and that that's one of them deals right there. You got something worth having, worth the breed, and it shows.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

Well, I see so many, and I I know why they do it, it's just what they have access to, but they'll take a really nice dog and breed it to a Yes, and it and not that a nice dog can't come out of that, but it's all percentages. The the better the genetics of the mom and daddy, the higher percentage you're gonna get out of that. My wife is is five foot. I'm six foot. We can have all the kids we want, then none of them are gonna be six, seven. It's just it's genetics. So, and it's the same with the dogs. Uh so the better the genetics, the higher possibility, higher percentage you're gonna have on producing good dogs. And and and good dogs that have the traits that you want. Um, I I don't run a lot of pure hounds, not that they're not good, that they're they're they've been around for hundreds of years because they're good. It's not exactly, and so I breed for the traits that I I like in a dog, which is a lot about being cast, being fairly quiet, being really smart on how they they approach. I I do think a lot of dogs, their intelligence is is probably the most underrated thing, people, especially in all dogs. Yeah. But it's not about just running. There's more to it than it's especially on how they base stuff.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

I call it sensibility, is what I what I what I say. I don't know if that's the correct thing, but I I think that's what you're talking about, though.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Yeah. And so the the the few elite dogs I've seen in my life, I mean, these are the elite, the best of the best. They had they had a lot of good traits, don't get me wrong. But every single one of them was a really smart dog that that just knew how to work hogs, knew how to get hogs bade, um, didn't have to run hogs all day. Um, you know, it it didn't push hogs. It it like I said, it if if you run them for hours, you start, I start asking why are we running for hours? Are we not fast enough? Are we getting them bathed? Are we breaking? Are we getting too rough, but not catching and pushing the hog? Um is the is the train that thick? You know, there's it's not just the dogs, there's other things that go into that, but why are we having to run them for six hours? Because I know a fast set of dogs can kill a hog in three hours. I've seen it. I I've you know, uh I I've had dogs. I had a dog with somebody's dog too, they could kill a hog in about three hours in the in in summer. Yep. And uh so so you know what what's leading us to to doing what we're doing or taking as long as it takes. And and yeah, I know hogs run, but what can we do to to to reduce that or limit that?

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Yep. I I don't know if many people really get into it that hard. Uh I think they get caught up in the well, this dog's out here dicking around and he ain't doing this, or or whatever. They're not looking at all the factors of why that hog is running. Like you, just like you said, I I watch the speed on how fast these dogs I got go. And there's some places I've been where I'm like, I'll I'll ask the guys I'm with, I'm like, hey, is is that a big thick spot or something, or is it water or something? Yeah, whatever, and they'll be like, oh man, it's so thick. Okay, good, because they they they went from 11 miles an hour down to four miles an hour.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

That's correct. And it's not just it's not just speed, it's continuous speed. Yes. So if you can you got a dog and he can blow out and leave everything, but he blows runs over the track and he has to circle for three minutes to figure it out. Well, he's not pushing no faster than the dogs that's running slower.

unknown 53:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

You know, and you'll see them catch up and then he'll figure it out or get back with them and he'll leave them again and then get confused. Um, so so it's not just the like you said, it comes to it tells does he work when he loses it, does he work the same dang circle over and over and over and never loop out other ways to pick it up and go with it? And you know, that gets back to first time, tell you a story. First time I got a GPS, and uh I I heck I just got three collars. We was hunting some public land. I had a gym dog, a dog named Jim that was one of the better dogs I've ever seen in my life. And uh we turn loose on this ridge and they go in there and get in these canes, and these canes are thick, and they strike hogs, them hogs leave out of them canes, and it's a big, big cane patch. And them dogs are are circling in that cane patch and cannot get out of that that scent. And uh I get to watching that Jim dog that we call Jim because he had one of the tracking collars, and he came out of that cane patch and made a big circle to the left. He went back in it, made a big circle to the right, went back in it, made a big circle out, and got about halfway on that circle and left.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Went about a mile and a half, bathed that hole. Meanwhile, them puppies and a few uh finished dogs, they were still in that big old cane patch making those same circles. We done caught the hog and come back. And, you know, little things like that, and that that's an extreme case, but little things like that uh starts that's the difference between catching eight holes and ten holes, three holes and four holes.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

I believe that's a common thing though. Um as far as the dogs, like you said, making a lose in the spot and then just working, you know, wallering a tracks, what I call it. You know, and I I Rick started doing that shit. And and people too listen, listeners out there in the world, the only reason I talk about Rick all the time, that's the only only hound I got, period. Uh but anyway, so he started doing that and he stayed in one spot for like 15 minutes. And and you know, just kept going around in a circle. There was a couple other hounds out there with him that another guy owned. He didn't go 40 yards outside of that. When he finally went about 50, he'd hit the track, run it. And after that, if he makes a lose, he'll he'll he'll hit it for just a minute or two, you know. Then, like you said, he'll go over here, then he'll go over here. And then he'll make a big he'll start making bigger circles, and then he'll then he'll leave out. If that's if he makes a loss. And so I that's when I that's some of the factors I thought, like, I'm gonna keep this dog because he's he's got sensibility, he's got sense. He, you know, even though he wasn't a hog dog, originally, you know, he was running in the foxpin and then he was stood up for a couple years overall. So he he started as a four-year-old. You know, and he's only been hunting just a little over a year old. But I noticed in them three hunts he started making all these differences. That's what I that's when I really realized, like what you're talking about. I had never paid attention to that before. I never had dogs like that. You know, I never had dogs that would they usually they were rougher style dogs, and we'd run three or four of them and we'd snatch a tail off, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

Okay. And and then and then it became about how good this dog can work. And man, there's dogs I had I thought were pretty good, and they were just dicking off. You know, they're they stay in one spot. And I'm like, Yeah, you call you can't have that.

SPEAKER_04 57:19

Well, and what I say is you catch the easy ones. Yep. Um that's right. And you know, everybody catches the easy one, then less people catch the ones that are little harder, less people catch, you know, and eventually you you just start weaning all the dolls out as you get to what I call the harder ones. And yeah, the the more one of the goodest thing, or goodest, one of the best things about goodness, that's what I'm talking about. One of the best things about getting to travel and getting a hunt with all them people, and and we was lucky when those videos took off, we got asked to hunt all over the country. I'm sure y'all do now with the podcast and stuff. Yeah, and it it was nice going on hunting with other people, seeing how they hunt, the type of dogs they hunt. Maybe it wasn't even stuff that I wanted, but it it worked for where they were, and uh and as you do that over years and years, you start maybe taking 10% of what Joey does that you liked, and uh, you know, 10% of what Nate does, and and even though you probably you built your pack the same for for your area and they work in your area, you start kind of manipulating that stuff where it works better in your area, but also where when you start traveling, it still works too. Yes. Because if you get to traveling and hunting with different types of dogs, um, you know, there's a lot of ways to do it, and you can get humbled really quick.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

You ain't even lying, wolf. My God, yes. Yeah. We we had a pair of young dogs. I was like, man, they you know, they're pretty good. If they were Nate's dogs, that Louie dog and Eminem when they were young. We went to Rusty's out there, and like they they Pat went with us. So we were like, yeah, we you know, I'm gonna go out here and show out a little bit. Dude, they wouldn't even cast. Now the now the next night, it's either the next night or the night before. No, it was the next night, because we had been there a couple of days. Completely different dogs. They act like they're supposed to. We bade hogs, we ran hogs, we had a great time. But that first night, I was like, what is going on?

SPEAKER_04 59:31

Well, how many hours did y'all that y'all travel? 13. Yeah. So that's 13 hours you beat them dogs in that dog box. Yes. And then if they were on a trailer, which I pull a trailer, that's even rougher. Oh, yeah. So you you beat them. And we do them.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:51

Yeah. And and you they're dehydrated. Even if you stop and water them and all that stuff, they get dehydrated. And then the first thing you do is go cast them and wonder, well, why ain't they doing it? Preach it, bro. Preach it. They're dehydrated, they're sore. You know, even if they do run, they're gonna they're sore already. So it it compounds how sore they get for the next day. And and then if you most like me, I want to travel as soon as deer season ends because that's the best weather.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:23

That's also when my dogs are the most out of shape. Ain't that the truth? So I beat them to death, I dehydrate them, I go and run them when they're fat and out of shape, and I, you know, I'm going, man, they just ain't doing like they was at the end of the summer. Yeah, no shit. You know, but you know, you gotta kind of step back and say, okay, uh, they run really good for a day or two. They they they uh fell off the third day. Um, okay, I know why it's because they're not in shape and and they're sore and and so on. And okay, I gotta start figuring out ways to get them in better shape through the deer season, which is a challenge, Amber. All of us go through. That's right. Um, and then you get them halfway legged up, and here's turkey season. So and then you you get them really going at the end of the summer, and you're like, oh yeah, they're there. And then you sit them up for three months.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

You know what the best part about all that was that what I actually learned, which I know I knew what would happen. You know, I knew there's a chance of it happening. You know, that's during the time we had really started take first started taking these long trips. And we had swapped over to all cur dogs. I used to run, you know, bird bulls and the the drop and jag crosses and all all this high terriers and all this shit. They're look, they're trying to kill each other in the box. Uh, you know, so I mean it I never had to deal with uh them having a uh an off day of wanting to go hunt. I look back at it now though, and I'm like, yeah, they did, because there was days I was like, man, they don't seem like they're doing as good. They still perform. But in this scenario with the cur dogs, I was with two sure enough dog men. And we sat out there, and you know what he you know what we did? Laughed. He said, look at that son, but he said, it makes you a laugh. And it was Pat Lewing and Rusty Matejo right there. And you know, you sit there and you kinda and Nate, I felt bad for Nate because I was like, he's like, daddy, I'm just reading them dogs, you know, and I was like, son. At the time I don't think they was but a year old.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:29

Yeah, and you know, and I was like the first time they've been on anything like that. They don't never went nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

No, they had never done that, and it's asking so much of them. But like I said, uh, and Nate even told Pat, he was like, Well, what do you what do you think? Pat said, Well, if he go out there and that hog will kill him, you won't even have to cull him. Yeah. And we just laugh, you know. And then Pat literally, he said, Nate, he said, they'll eat shit and screw their mama. That's guaranteed. The rest of it, roll of the dice.

unknown 1:03:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:02

And I've done learn not to brag on one until we did. Oh, yes. Wait till he's gone. He he can't make you a liar if he's passed away. But and look, dogs in different terrains act different. And I'll tell you a quick story. Uh when I was younger, and we was first, it was when we was making this transition to bay dogs, I had a friend named Duke in Texas, and uh we went and hunted with him, and he had this dog called Ugly. And when I say he matched his name, he matched his name. But what Ugly did was bay hog for three nights. And I had every one of Duke's dogs, every one of my dogs, every one of the other guys' dogs. I said, Man, Duke, I you want to sell that dog? And he didn't want to sell a dog. So I got home a week later, he called me and he had some issues, and he said, Man, I need to sell two dogs. I said, I want that ugly dog. And he had a female that I I mean, I'm sure she bathed some hogs, but I can't remember her baying hogs. I just like the way she hustled. So I turned around and drove nine, ten hours, and bought those dogs. Got them down here in these pine thickets. The ugly dog never bait a hog down here by herself. Now I watched him three days bait hogs in front of everything. The the uh ginger doll, which was the female, stayed at my place for about 10 years, died at my place, and is the foundation to some of these puppies. Um, everything that ever came out of her was a hog doll. When I sold the ugly doll, this back when you had the uh Bay Dog Online where you had to list him.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Bayog.com?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

Yeah, something like that. And and and uh the the ad said such and such uh yellow dog will only sell to South Texas.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:05

Guy called me, he said, why will you only sell this dog to South Texas? And I told him the story. I said, listen, I bought this dog and out of South Texas, I watched him bathe hogs in front of everything I got here. I said, he can that country is his country. I said, I brought him over here, I said, I've got puppies baying in front of me. And uh I and uh make a long story short, he bought the dog, dog worked fine, but that's a dog that I I've I didn't buy off of an ad or nothing. I bought that dog off a hose. Yeah. And it didn't work out. And and all I did was change terrain. Now, that was rain at Katrina. That was when this country got super thick, and and you had to have one that would beat the bushes. At the same time, I had a bobtail dog that I traded two sacks of dog feed that would beat the bushes. Better than any dogs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:03

Can you imagine how many good bay dogs? Just think, go back and think. When you first started really getting your own dogs, how many good bay dogs you got rid of because you ran the rougher dogs?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:16

Well, let me go a step farther. I told you about the gym dog that I was, like I said, one of the best dogs I've ever seen. On top of that, we had my my buddy Jay, right about time Jim started getting old, got a uh a yellow dog that was just as good as him, if not better. He he was a nice dog. The amount of young dogs we got rid of because we was trying to reproduce them. Yeah. And I and and some of them we gave away, some we sold. And then the guys are calling us three months later, like, why'd you get rid of this dog? He's the best dog I got. And because we was trying to re recreate that once in a lifetime doll. Yeah. We was young and didn't know no better. I mean, we did, but we didn't, you know what I'm saying? And and uh just like you said, it it was they were so good, we had some nice dolls that we just they weren't good enough. Um and I've even caught myself with these quarter walkers and so you have a quarter and eighth as I bred them down. And uh when they got it a quarter, like I told you earlier, three eighths is I think is where I want to be. Them quarter dogs were nice dogs, really nice dogs. Little bit of mouth, just a little bit, and uh not enough really to bother, but you you get to chase and perfection, and I bred them down more. Now there's an eighth out there, a blue male I got that that's becoming he he's he's three-year-old and he's he's a nice dog. Um you can ask Kenneth and him about him, they can hunt with him some. And uh, and he's an eighth, but and and Jay's got a female out of that litter that's really nice, but as far as total pack, those quarters were were total packed. They were from one end to the other were nice dogs. Um, there was a drastic fall off when we got them to an eighth because we're we're breeding some of the hun stuff out of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

And and chasing the that 100% closed mouth dog to a cast and do everything a hound do, but keep his mouth shut. It's a fine balance, and you it's easy to fall on that other side of the sword. And uh so now I'm gonna kind of stay at that quarter, but you you just get to chase them, and if you don't watch out, you you know, you can you can go the wrong direction quicker.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

I'm not I've noticed that, like you said, but I kind of like a little bit of mouth on track now, but the more I've hunted it, because I can get the young dogs to them, they ain't got no excuse to to not get there. I don't want them screaming, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

But and now this them three I got from Mr. Giant, them them two walkers in July, they scream. Do they? Yeah, you know, I was raised around them, but I hadn't been around them in a while. And I thought I knew what open mouth was. Oh Lord. And the first day I turned them loose, I had actually that blue male, it's just on mine. I let him go and jump a hole. And uh, it broke and running. They came across the trail. I pulled up. As soon as I pulled up, they blew the box up. I dumped them on it, and my wife looked at me and she said, What the heck are they doing? I said, Well, it's walker dogs, they bark a lot. She said, That much? And they were barking three times every time they took a step.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

I said, Yeah, I don't remember them doing that much, but I guess they did. It's been a while. But, you know, and we had brought uh I brought them out where we kind of same area we competition hunting, and them hogs typically don't run that bad. When I bring them out there, it's four to five hours they're gonna run a hog. The same hogs I t I take them other dogs out there and bay in 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

Um so I know people don't think there's a difference, but there is. But that little bit of barking, and I I don't know how much your your rick dog does open.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:25

On hogs, it ain't much. I mean, yeah. It's that now and then that don't yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:31

When I was I that used to bother the heck out of me, but it doesn't no more. Um you know, barking every few hundred yards or or or a little bit here and there.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:40

If it's a lot if it's real hot, Michael, he'll it's like a cur dog getting excited. Yeah. Craziest shit I ever heard. And then he'll shut up. Yeah. He won't say another word. When he's when he barks, then he's he's got him up. You know, and and after he gets him up moving, it's you know, it's not bad. It's not what a damn running dog normally sounds like.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:17

So I mean And we we've had a bunch of them that would would like strike cold, uh closed mouth. When you heard them bark the first time, they were baited uh or looking at it. And then if it breaks and runs, they might open here and there. Um and like them females, them quarters I had, if you set them up for like deer season, you set them up for deer season, yeah, them first two or three hunts, they would be yeah, it would open or open, yeah. Open what I call open mouth. And by you get them to about the third hunt, they would get up get silent. And uh you might hear them open every few hundred yards, but as same dogs. Um but as long as you kept them hunted once a week, uh they would get pretty tight. And and they were real smart dogs and bait at the right distance and and the right pressure, and and usually if they they hooked the hog and baited, it stayed bait.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

What and what kind of distance do you need to keep the hog from breaking, you know, to keep the the the pressure where it needs to be?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

I'm probably different than everybody. Um I would say ten feet.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:24

Um now thicker it is, the closer he's got to be. Because he's got to be a scene. Um, but if he can see 10 feet's a good good mark. Um you know, when they're up in their face, and that's how I used to want them when they was younger, and we videoed thousands of hours of dogs baying holes. Thousands and thousands of hours. I've got just stacks of tapes in in the closet in there. And what I got to noticing is them dogs that were baying like the stereotypical baying, they'll push holes more. Um because sooner or later they're gonna take a cheap shot or they just get the pressuring the hall too much and he gets uncomfortable and he's gone. And and look, it it it it once again it comes down to the doll, too. The gym doll was a pretty rough dog, and he could make them suckers bait. The the um dog my buddy had was a little looser dog, but still could make them bait. Um, but I find when them dogs get about that 10-foot, eight-foot mark, and they just sit there and bark, and and they're not running around trying to get cheap shots, them hogs, and just to get comfortable and stay there. Um but if something breaks them, bulldog misses, whatever, then you know, it just depends on the area and training and all that stuff and the holes, but you can get into you know running them a few hours. I got you.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:56

That's about what I like too, um, just over the years of, like you said, trial and error and just seeing which dogs will put too much pressure and cause the hog to move. Because I I've you know, I've got the competition bay dogs too, and I've carried them to the woods. They're they're too tight. You know? Yeah. So I crossed them with a with a and I know it sounds crazy, but I crossed them with a rough, rough dog, pretty much running catch dog. And I said, let's see what we can work, see what we can figure out. Because I had a theory, you know. Uh Corey Dye told me, he said, the best bay dog is a chick and chick catch dog. I said, Well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna do one or two things. We're gonna make good bay dogs or we're gonna make absolute monsters. We make good bay dogs. They cast. I mean, they got all the best attributes of both parents. I I we hit a home run. I'm scared to do it again. That's what I was talking about. I said, I'm scared. Like something's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:53

But the uh I used to want, I used to figure, you know, I was like, well, if they stay right in their face, you know, that'll keep them now.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:01

Well, and and the thought behind that is is based on open woods. Is okay, if the hole turns, we're gonna, we're gonna stop him. But most hogs don't bay in the open, they bay in the thickest stuff they can find. Yeah. And if that hole, when he turns, as soon as he does something, the dog, the dog's natural tendency is to back up if he's a you know, a bay dog. And so when he starts to move, the dog goes back three or four foot. Well, he goes through the briars, and he as soon as he moves three foot, he's in briars, and the dog just can't get to him. And you know, you said, man, will he stop? You hear that will they stop a hole? Well, yeah. You put them in an open creek, they're gonna work the heck out of him. You put him in a uh three-year-old clear cut is infested with greenbriars, they're gonna have to bathe for a while just to get to the greenbriars beat down where they can they can halfway see the whole hole. Um, so so it's harder to work that hole. And and that gets back to terrain. Uh, you know, when we talk about hogs running, and some of the toughest terrain I've seen traveling is what I call your your pine cutovers that that are heavy in the greenbriars. And um and it is just it's so thick. And what's funny is that hog can trot through that stuff and just keep going.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:27

He won't even shake a leaf hardly.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:29

No, and that stuff just rolls right over his head. And uh those dogs have got to fight their way through it. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:36

And we we used to we used to wear them out on because that's how that's what we hunt, that most of the places, uh uh other than in the mountains or the hills, you know. Um everybody's like, man, how are y'all stopping these hogs? I said, would five or six of them jags and hide terriers? They they can get around in that brush real good. Yeah. You know, with the with these bigger dogs, like you said, they you start watching the speed and it'll go from, you know, it'll be two miles an hour, three miles an hour. And they're they're fighting to get through there. And that old hog is steadily gaining ground on them. That's correct. And uh so the only way I figured once we get in a in a block like that, we don't really have blocks here. But like if we get in an area like that, I just throw some running, catch dogs, and we just go to beating briars to get to them. If if we gotta catch a hog, if we gotta catch one. If we don't, you know, hell I let him run and we go baiting 10 hours later. I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:32

Yeah. You know. And I mean when we run the rough dogs, it you just they would hunt, and when they find him in their bed, they would just catch him. Yeah. And you just eliminate the run.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:41

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:42

Um, but I was also in my 20s and could fight through a hundred yards of them green briars and and and run, you know, as far as I need to run. And uh those those days are gone. Now I'm baiting so I can get there real close with the catch though.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:57

Yeah, you probably almost 40 years old now, ain't you? Oh almost. I was thinking about that today just a little while ago. Grandkids was running across the yard, and I was I was like, I'm running, I'm running. And I was realizing I'm just walking fast. I was like, I'm not even my knees ain't even flexing, like my feet aren't off the ground. Like, fuck, what happened? Like I got old.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:21

I can either walk to the bay so I have I I can have air at the bay or I can run and be useless at the at the catch. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:29

But yeah, you just had to keep a few of them young younger boys with you has still got uh good blood flow and the oxygen moves through their veins.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:38

That's right. And and you know the thing about like we I know we talk trash, all that, but I try to go as hard as I can, just like you do. And but there, and there's a lot of guys that that are our age, and that man, they don't even they don't even try anymore. You know, they're like, I'm man, it's I'm I'm old now. I'm like shit. I'm I'm gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

I want to go to the base. I I just do. Yeah, no doubt. And not not now and then, every single time.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:05

I want to see what's happening. Nosy. I want to see what's happening. I want to see what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:11

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was watching a guy today, uh, that sucker was running up the bear. But point being is is I mean, I want to go there, like you said, see what they're talking about and put my hands on that thing if I can.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:26

That's right. You know. So with the now, you know, but with that being said, we're talking about the younger guys coming in and and now it now it's their turn, and and you know, you want to let them do all that they can do. I mean, how how's all that working? Like I I went down there and hunted with the kill and Kenneth and them. Uh them fellas right there, they seem like they got good dogs, good properties, the whole nine yards. Um is that just them or is there are there more guys like that out there where you're at?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

No, no, well, in that country up there, there's a lot of them guys, and they're all that similar age. Um, and I mean, they got you know a lot of good places to hunt. Uh, I met those boys through Uncle Earl's, I don't know how many years ago. It's it's had to be six, seven, eight years ago. Yeah. But one like that goes back to one of the good one of the best things about doing whether it's selling supplies, making videos, traveling to these shows, is you just start meeting these guys. Yes. And you know, we they may come in and buy stuff and you talk to them a little, and you talk next year you talk to them. And that's kind of how it was with them. I just got to talking with them and bullcrapping with them about um hulk hunting and uh over a few years. And one year they invited me to come up there and hunt. We went up there and hunted a place they had and caught 10 holes, and uh, had a real good time. And uh, heck, we've been hunting together uh Amber since then. Heck, I think we're gonna try to get together in two or three weeks and make a hunt. And uh I like I said, their land is super nice. They the the the hole hunter hunting culture in that area is is the best I've seen anywhere. Um like I said, they still work hogs, they still do everything like the old timers used to do. And they've got big chunks of the land, and and it's it is probably Texas has got the most hogs, and the marsh land is real nice, but as far as what I call piney wood, normal land, um they that area is probably some of the nicest in the country.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

I I would I would say so. Um like I said, just from what where we was around, like we went to uh to Caden Ballard's place, and he was the same way. Like they don't they don't kill any hogs over there. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Well they do, they kill any eat though. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, they're they're they're not just going like, hey guys, let's go hunting. I'm gonna show off and you know, we're gonna go do this. Um and and like you said, everybody that man, everybody just work together.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:19

Yeah, they still catch them big bars and they process them, they make cracklings, they make grease. Oh, yeah. They do, like I said, they do the old timer, old school way of doing stuff that for some reason over the last 30 years, roughly, I I don't know the exact time frame, we've convinced everybody that holes are no good for nothing. Dude, ain't that the truth? Shit. And you go up there, and them boys are doing everything the right way. And and and like I said, it's the whole area, and they've got big pots where they can make grease, uh uh, you know, lard and uh Did I post that video of uh the the cooker thing that they showed us down there or the scalder? I didn't see it, but yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:02

I I need to post it because uh I I think Kenneth and was gonna go back and get it for Mr. Chris down there. He had it. And I told him I said, if y'all don't get this, I said, I won't I won't snack shot at it, you know. Um the big old scalding vat, it's got weights on it, like you can pull it and and flip the whole hog up out of it, man. I I was like, because see, we still do that here ourselves, but it's just me and Nate and Rodney and it, you know, it's it's not the culture. There's right there, that's the it's not even culture. That's the heritage, that's the history, it's everyday life.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:35

Before I was born, it was like that here. All this this public land, well, it's now public land, it used to just be swamp land, river bottom. All the old timers that lived in it had marked holes and they worked the hogs. And there was still a little of that when I was a little kid, but it kind of went away. And like I said, now they they don't work those. And it look, this is some of the best hog hunting in the country around, you know, in the in this river bottom by here. And they're just nobody does that anymore. And you know, they they kill a hog and drag it off, say it's no good to eat, and go to the store and buy it.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:14

Yeah, that's that's wild to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:16

I mean and hey, look, I tell you another story real quick. My buddy Will, he's in his 20s, and uh started hunting with him about 10 years ago. He's in he's in Georgia, and they they hunt farm hogs. They have to kill them. They and them hogs tear up everything over there. And uh so those hogs are I joke with him, I said, Will, these are grain-fed hogs. I said, Them old hogs were eating by the house, eating marshmallow all day. I said, your hogs are eating corn and soybean and all that stuff. I said, these are grain-fed hogs. And we'll he said, Them hogs are no good to eat, no good to eat. And uh, so when we go over there, uh it's it's super good hunting. Some we've had days we catch 30 hogs. And and you gotta and you gotta kill them. Yeah. So I after a year or so, I told Tiffany, I said, heck, I'm bringing backpacks and and uh ziploc bags and a good knife. I'm I'm gonna cut back straps and get get especially these nice big old sows. So we started doing that, and and the like I said, that was when we first started hunting with Will and them for two years. He went over to my buddy Jay and he said, uh, he said, Michael and them aren't eating them nasty things, huh? And Jay says, Yeah, they they eat them. He said, Oh no, they're nasty. So we got home, and that's just what he's been taught, yeah, or not taught, but that, you know, the what the the what people think. And um, so we get home and Jay just happened to get a new smoker, and they didn't have our good southern seasoning up there in uh South Carolina. So we took some of them backstraps. I said, we're just gonna make some of these backstraps and we'll cut them in cubes and and bring them to hunt the next day. So me and Tiffany got in there and we just when I say piece together some some recipes, if if we normally cook back strap and it's an eight, we we probably made some fives, you know, um, as far as taste. That next day I brought them out there and I had a rack on my ranger and I rolled them ziploc bags down and put them. Uh there's three different flavors. We put them on there, and I tell you them boys were about to chew their fingers off eating them. And uh that's uh they said, What is this? I said, That's them old nasty hogs, y'all said aren't no good. Yeah. And and they they ate every, it was three big uh gallon ziplop bags, they ate every bit of bit of well.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:50

I mean, it's the truth. Like you said, the grain-fed hog deal. They they they started, they passed the baiting bill here several years ago now. And dude, our the hogs don't hit corn piles like they used to, you could dump a barrel of corn out and and every hog in the in the country's coming. Yeah, well now I mean there's deer feeders and stuff everywhere, people feeding turkey or whatever, you know. And so there's way more access to to corn. But I got we killed a hog one night. It was a bad boar hog, and we got in a jam, we killed him. I told Nate, I said, Well, let's cut them back straps out of him. I said, uh I said, hell if nothing else, we'll quarry him up and we'll we'll just make dog food out of him. Man, that thing had a fat cap on him. I said, Well, this must be a bloodied hog or something. I got to think about it, and I said, You know, I said, All these hogs are eating our mass crops out here in the woods and then corn. And this is no joke. That particular hog, I cooked it for Nate's wedding. And it's been a couple years ago. And people I had no idea it was a wild hog. And it was a boar. One guy was there. He said, Is this a wild hog? I said, Yeah, he said, You gotta be kidding me. I said, No. He said, Big old sound. I said, Nope. He said, Oh, a bar hog. I said, No. He said, Well, that ain't a boar. I said, That's that some bitch is a boar hog. I said, His nuts was in him till till we cut him out. And uh it's just the difference in what they're eating and where they're eating. And like you said, they've been demonized, these hogs have.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:34

Yeah, and look, I got a buddy, Craig, and he hunts now, runs dogs now, but years ago he didn't. And uh Craig is a a I mean, he's a cook. He's a really good cook. Cook anything. And uh so when he was younger, he used to have big parties on the weekend at his house, every weekend, and he did cookouts, whatever he could get a hold of. So back then when we was hunting, if we caught a big old boarhole out of that marsh, just I mean, the the worst possible scenario you could you could do, we would bring it to Craig. Craig would skin it out. That weekend he would cook, and people didn't know what it was. And I'm telling you, he had this big wood uh grill, uh hex sucker might have to be four foot in a circle, and it never would make it to the plates. People would just eat it off the grill. And I mean, the same people would say, Oh, that they're no good to eat. And uh we I always wanted to have like a some type of big uh uh uh video series where you take and you get somebody like Craig that cooks that good and get them to cook that wild hog and kind of tell them about yeah, and interview the people and and find the ones that said wild hog is no good and get them to eat it. And get and and not tell them, get on get an honest opinion from them. And I I would say you're gonna have a 90% that people like it. Um where if you told them it was wild hog, you might get a 30%.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:10

Oh, I agree. I mean, I've I've been in that situation before where people like, we're sitting there eating, and they're like, Oh, where'd you get these Boston butts at? And I'm like, um, what? You know, and I'm like, that's a day, yeah. I was like, that's a hog we caught, and they're like, oh, I don't eat wild hog. You just ate three pounds of it. That's right. You know, and uh, but no, that I think a lot of it is the preparation, how you how you clean them, and how you're gonna cook them. You know.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:42

One of the things we do, I kind of perform like the sows, the the back straps pretty much all go into fry meat, but the sows will take the hindquarters and maybe smoke, um, do different things. We'll take the front shoulders with the sows and uh cross-cut and make uh country style pork ribs. And then what we'll we'll we might take the leftovers from the sows and put in in big ziploc bags, and we take the board, the young boars, and put in them big ziploc bags, and we'll make sausage out of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:15

And um a story I always tell, we was hunting at public land, and I think in 12 days we caught like 120 hogs, 110 hogs, whatever it was. It was over 100. So we just got these big uh ice chests that we rounded up from wherever we could get them, and people's taking some and and and as hunting with us, and but the it's just piling up, and we're making sausage out of some of it. And uh so over that year, we was taking those back straps out and eating them. There was one hole that year that when and it was not a big hole, it was a it was a little hole that when my wife cooked it, I said, That's a borehole. And you know, they say it may come because uh sow was in heat or whatever it might have been. Now, I never got another backstrap. That was only one side of it. Uh that I said, Well, that's the other half of it. So somebody must have took the other half. But that out of uh over a hundred hogs, there was one that I say wasn't fit to eat.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:21

Now, you go back 30 years ago or 20 years ago. I can remember some of the first big big rank boar hogs that that I ever said, oh I'm gonna I'm gonna cook it, you know, the whole and you could taste and you you could tell it was a boar hog, but it wasn't like it was unedible, you know, it wasn't horrible. And uh so immediately, you know, as as soon as we catch one, we'd go ahead. If he was still kicking, we'd go ahead and cut his nuts out, then dispatch it. That seemed to help, but like I said, after that baiting bill came in and corn was the main thing, bro, it's like all our hogs, like I I ain't bought pork from a store in 15 years, and I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:10

No, we don't, and you know uh Tiffany, it's been a few years ago, but she bought some and cooked it. And I when she cooked it, I said, that's tame haul. And she said, Yeah. I said, It ain't got no flavor. It's greasy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:25

I I eat a pork chop. Uh well, when we was at Uncle Earl's, my daughter cooked one. And I'm talking about this one bitch was a slab. Now, when I seen it, I said, My God, you know, I said, Hell yeah, I'm you know, she cooked, I'm gonna eat it. And it was good. But like you said, it is not the same. It just it didn't have any flavor from from the meat itself. You know, she put the season on it. She lived in Louisiana, she throwed the seasoning to it. And I I was just it's it's just different. It's just different. I don't care for it, you know. And so I mean, I wish more people would would do it like that instead of pulling up to a field and seeing, you know, 30 or 40 hogs laid out there or two or three hogs, anything, just laid out there or throw it in a road ditch.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:09

Well, let's go a step farther. There's still buying stations in Texas that are buying wild hogs and selling them. Oh, I know. So, I mean, are you are you are you leaving a hog and going to the store and buying a wild hog?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, do you really know?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:28

Yeah, I I do. I understand it's a small percentage, but but come on now. Uh yeah, I mean, there's a lot of that's still a big thing over there. I I have a lot of friends that hunt over there and actually make a pretty good living selling them wild hogs. And they said uh from what I've heard, they send them a lot of it up north and and uh to Europe because it's a that Texas wild hog is a delicacy.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:54

Yeah, that's the same thing I've been told, and like there's restaurants that have it, no. But there's a place, uh I don't know if it's still going or not, but it was in South Alabama, and they used to sell nutria and rat and ra and raccoon. And somebody from up north would come down and buy. And I'm like, what? You know what I'm saying? Like, if if if you come over my house, if most people, let's put it this way, not just you, but just the average everyday person comes over and they're like, What's for supper? Well, we have a nutria rat and raccoon. They're gonna look at you like you don't lost your damn mind. I'm not, I'm gonna push my elbows out and get after it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:37

Yeah, that's the thing about me, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:39

You know, like that's what I said.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:41

I'm gonna try anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:43

Oh, yeah. But I I just think um you know, overall in the the whole industry, you you and I are both in it. You've been in, you're the OG, you've been in this thing a long time. Um I think hog hunting is probably at its pinnacle right now with as far as the popularity.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:02

Yes, yeah. Uh and I and it may be on the the down fall. Um I would say right about time it was on TV and all that stuff, you was really just, you know, everybody was getting into it. Um I I I don't know. It's hard to tell. I mean, business is as good as ever, but also the cost of things has went up, so you gotta factor that in your numbers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:31

Um I I think like you said, it's kind of calming down, but you know, how how do you feel like about that as far as do you do you see it say it staying stable at at like where we're at right now, or going up or down in the next five years?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:50

As long as the whole population stays reasonable, it it's gonna either sustain itself, or I think it will chase the whole population. In other words, if you've got access to something, you'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:05

Um, I can't elk hunt in Louisiana. There's no elk. Um, but if there was elk, I would elk hunt in Louisiana. So as long as people's got access and got places to go, you're gonna see people get in it and stay in it. The more they invent stuff to wipe them out, that could change the whole game. And and if if you're not feeding 20-headed dogs if you ain't got no place to hunt.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:36

Um ja, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:38

Yeah, so it it and and look, like I said, I there's a lot of young guys get in it here and they stay in it a few years, but they just can't find no place to hunt. And and there's not a lot of big property around here. So that it's just a constant struggle for them, and they just lose interest because of that. Um and it's for me, and and I we always joke. I I've got access for friends that's invited me over these years to probably I I don't know the real number. This is a made-up number, but let's say a million acres, it's a lot. Um, then that's a made-up number. But it's insane how much access I have to. But locally, the pe I have access to properties, but most of them are too small. Uh, and and I I'm not going and hunting 20 acres. I'm just not gonna do that. I I I don't like and well, and I don't like if you have land next to it, I'm not going and hunting 20 acres and backdooring you. I that we was raised, you don't do that. Um, if you got access to land, I'm not going and backdooring that land and with the owner. If I go with you, I'm gonna keep going with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:56

That's right. Even if the owner calls you.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:58

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:59

Yeah, and it doesn't fucking matter. You do not go.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:03

And a perfect example is uh a friend of mine's got property where one of the spots we we heck the spot we won your hunt on the second time. Yeah. Um and we went there this year. He my buddy couldn't go, but he told me to go. And I I know the landowner, I'm not calling that landowner and trying to go, and we needed to hunt that spot for the tournament. But, you know, I mean, me and me and Craig's real tight and good friends, and he said, Hey, I can't go. He said, But I've talked to the landowner, and y'all go for that tournament. And we did go for the tournament, but I'm not going again without him. Um, you know, I'm not going, you know, when I call when I talk to the landowner, I see him in the store. He says, Y'all need to go hunting. I said, Yeah, I'm gonna get with Craig and see when he can go, and we'll go. Um, because he's the one that brought me to that spot. It's his spot to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:03

Yes. Um I I mean, that's just how I'm that's how it is for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:10

But like it, like getting to your original question, I I don't know what it's gonna do. I think it really depends on on the hulks. The good thing is, I mean, good, and I use good as a very loose term, uh, the good thing they are spreading, and that's good for my business. Um, that's good for your podcast because it brings more people into it. But at the same time, I think they're they're bringing the numbers down on a lot of places. And a perfect example is that land in Georgia. Um, when I first started going over there 15 years ago, we caught a bad day we caught 10 hogs. You know what I'm saying? Um, they uh heck there was a few years we won every little tournament they had over there off that farmland because them holes were bad and there was lots of them. And uh night visions come in, the electronic traps has come in in about five years. That same property you go to, and you might have a good hunt every once in a while and catch ten holes, but a lot of times you're gonna catch three. And what's funny, the the land we used to bypass because it was it was thicker, we didn't want to hunt it, you can still go there and catch because they can't use those functions to get rid of those hogs as easily. And you know, we went over there uh I think it was two years ago. I don't know if you watched the hunt the 704s uh giants and we done, we went over there and we caught 70 something in four days. The day we went to the farmland, we caught two hogs. We caught the other 70 on them three days. And that was hunting pine thickets that those hogs still could could protect themselves in. Um, so even that kind of stuff's changing where the good spots are. Um the like the bigger pieces of property, then you only got one group of person managing where if you got a bunch of little 20-acre plots, well, John's got a uh trap, and then I got a trap, and then you got a trap, you know, only these 20 acres. Well, heck, there's 10 traps on 100 acres. Um, you know, so them poor hogs can't move, where if it's one big piece of property and just I'm working the hogs, it's it's easier for those hogs to evade and and live. So I I don't know the answer to your question. It I think it's on a teeter tighter and it's really based on where the whole access to good hog hunting land.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:42

Yeah. I I agree. Uh I have to, because that that's a determining factor, even for guys that's been doing it forever. If the land keeps changing or the hogs keep moving, whatever you want to say, and well, the hogs evolving and all that, what if we don't have access to where they're headed?

SPEAKER_04 1:43:00

That's correct. Uh friend of mine, Grant, a younger boy Grant, that I hunt with, I was just talking to him about that about three days ago. And some of the pieces of property he'd have, he has access to, they've trapped hard. Well, that was the big chunks he could hunt and he could rely on. Well, they're cleaned out pretty hard. I mean, you can it's just it's hard to train young dogs on them and so on. Um, so I it's that's just something we're gonna have to battle with. The the thing that disappoints me is some of the jokes me and my buddy Jay in South Carolina, because we we breed dogs together and have done this 25 years to cycle these dogs and and so on together. And you know, when we was younger, the dogs weren't worth a crap, but we was young and we hunted them so much, we got everything we could out of them. Now we've got these dogs that they are bred up, and I mean they're they are really bred up. Um but we're older and don't get to hunt as much, and the the the landscape of of hulk hunting be is changing. So you're you're having to adapt to that. And um, so I mean, I'm gonna chase them, I'm gonna drive a few hours if I have to to hunt. I'm gonna do what I have to to keep those dogs in the woods. But a guy who's doing it recreational, boy, it can get tough on them. And I I think that's why you see a lot of people get in it three to five years and they burn out. Um, especially uh, at least around here. And and I would say 80% of why they burn out is because they just can't hunt their dogs. They're spending a fortune and they they they can hunt that public land for a month and then they're chasing their tail trying to get uh a hunt once a month, and you you you can't train dogs that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:51

No, it's I've I've done it and been through it, and and you can't do them justice. I I was thinking the other day, I was like, man, some of the the situations that we've been in, like you're talking about getting shut down for deer season, shut down for turkey, and all this stuff. I was like, imagine if we could just roll year-round. Imagine what kind of dogs we have then because we're in the same position you're in. The dogs we have now are probably the best dogs as a whole that we've ever had. These are breed-specific dogs, and and they do a specific job.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:28

Yeah. And I call it their genetic genetic specific because they're bred is exactly what genetics you want, and they're a they're a high, you know, a top line of those genetics where because you you've been able to get this dog or or move things around to do it. Um, but you still have to put them in the woods. Yes, sir. Um, and you know, one of the things I see people do, uh, and it's kind of changing the subject, but you so you you breed a some dogs and you get this one dog out of there, that he's one of the top dogs you ever seen. But the rest of the litter doesn't make it. And I see this as a mistake, at least in my opinion. You got another litter over here. None of them are that that elite dog, but they're all really nice good dogs, all eight of them. You know, I mean, I I look at everything in percentages like a math equation. I want to breed those dogs that all eight turned out. Yep. Because if the other one turned out seven calls and one real good one, the odds of you doing that again is not not too high. You just not lucky and the sperm hit the egg on that one. That's right. So, you know, I don't know. I get to talking in circles, but it it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:57

I'm the same way. That's the same way.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:01

Yeah, and I the way we've crossed these dogs, if we can keep them in the woods, and you you kind of get to wish me life away, but you're like, gosh darn, I can't wait till we get to retire so I can hunt these things four days or a week. I see what they're doing if I'm hunting them one day a week. If I can hunt them four days a week, you know, wow, what are they gonna do? That's exactly right. And uh, so you know, the only thing we can do, I guess, is is not, you know, keep working on the best you can till you get to that retirement age.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:30

And and that's you know, we were joking around about retiring and all that stuff earlier, but and I was I told you what you know what Nate has has got planned and stuff for for later in the year, and if it works out to where he can get on with the fire department, I think that's what I'm gonna do is I'm not I'm not gonna be like just retire or whatever, but I'm I'm gonna hunt my dogs. And so what I was thinking of is like, okay, maybe take two dogs a month in uh to put with mine. Uh you know, if somebody needs some help or whatever, of course there's a feed to it, and that'll help me buy dog food and and corn or whatever else that I need for these training sessions.

unknown 1:48:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:10

We're gonna have to market for that. The casting class, brother. I'm fixing to put them where if you bring them to me, you better have some long-range antennas.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:18

That's right. Yeah. And now we, you know, we we get requests um not as much as we don't do as many videos, but uh I mean, we get requests about training dogs all the time because people don't have all of all the time in the world to do that. They can't put them in the woods uh, you know, they won't go catch a hog when they're off work. That's correct. And maybe they can only hunt once a month or they can only hunt once every two weeks. And it's you know, he better be a really nice dog to develop at that rate, where if you're putting him in in the woods three, four times and putting him on holes, putting him on tracks, putting him on long runs, and and you know, different scenarios he that hopefully he learns and develops off of that. Um, there's I think there's a market for that. Um and all these guys that are getting into it. Well, we see the dog is sold at Uncle Earl's every year. Um so there's always a market for people looking for dogs, and there's gonna be the same market looking for people to train dogs.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:30

There's a there's a guy that's uh a buddy of mine, he uses him, and what he does, he doesn't train your dog in the hunting aspect of it. But when you bring it to him as a young dog or pup, he'll have him where he's tone broke. He uh he understands load and unload. That's it. Basic commands and and how to get in and out of the dog box. It's it he usually keeps 'em for like a w a couple of weekends or something like that, you know. Maybe a week even. I I don't know how long it is. And I think he charges like a hundred bucks to do it. You know how easy. I mean, you know how a hundred bucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:09

Yeah, for a hundred bucks, bro.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:11

Look, I would do that in a minute for some of these hard heads. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:15

And I tell you, um, you know, we talked about the amateur dogs earlier. And uh I I hunted with Mr. Ronnie once or twice when I was real younger. I didn't hunt with him for years. And uh a few years back I finally I got to go with him again. And it like I said, everybody in this area knows him and Miss Monica's dogs. Um and uh they did good hunting, but that's not what I told everybody about. You know what I told everybody about the whole time we got back is how they listened. They they ambush hogs, they got bulldogs that will stand by you. You can send them to a bay, but they'll stand by you. And if a whole hog comes running up the road, they just catch it. They don't like my team, I I work them off lead. I don't lead them very often. But if they hear a bae, I'm gonna have to, you know, walk them in there. These dogs are actively listening for stuff to limbs are breaking wind and holes. But they pulled up and they had six bulldogs. And you're like, what the heck you need six bulldogs for? Well, Mr. Riney took two, put on his bike. Miss Monica took two, put on her bike. The other fellow that was with him took two, put on his bike. You would pull up to a bay. Now the the dogs are the the the uh dogs are hammering. The two females when we cast it, that his dog split to the left, mine split to the right. We pulled up to that first bay. He said, You want to bring your dog to my your bulldog to mine? I said, Bring yours. He called them by name. I there's six dogs there, bulldogs there. Unleashed. He called them by name, those two jumped down. We walked them in there, got close. He asked if I'm ready. Basically, same principle as I walked mine in there. They caught the hole. And I always say, I don't know how Mr. Ronnie hunts at that age. Well, I found out real quick. We rolled a hole, he told them dogs to get back. They got back and watched him. We tied the hole. We walked out, they stayed right there with us, caught a hole while we was walking out. The bay dogs wasn't even there. Eyed him up, got back to the bike, looked down at his, oh, mine relayed. I can't remember if we went to his or mine relay, but anyway, the next ones we went to, he said, You want to bring your bulldog? I said, No, we're bringing yours to everyone. Catalan. I mean, baby. And that their bay dogs and catch dogs listen like that. But they him and Miss Monica was retired and they worked those dogs and made them listen every day, and they hunted them four days a week.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:01

Yeah, that that's that's a huge part of it. Yes. And you gotta be able to do that, or you it's hard to have that style or that kind of handle.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:11

So, what made me start doing that? This is going back 10 years, maybe 15 years ago. We went down south in the cane fields, and I was hunting with this fella, and he was a duck dog guy. And I I'll be honest, I can't even remember the fella's name.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:26

Um Allen Adams.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:29

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:30

Then he did some lab workers. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:33

This was in South Louisiana. Oh, okay, okay. Um and uh we went, and he, you know, if you can train a duck dog as far as how they live, you know how they listen. Training old bulldog probably isn't that hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:47

So when we pulled up there, he took a pillow and put this in when I tell you how long it was ago, nobody had U TVs, they all had four-wheelers. Oh, yeah. He put it, he put a pillow on that front of that, that front rack. Bulldog jumped up there, and I think he died for a little while up there. I didn't see him blink. And he so we cast the dogs, and you were talking, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes goes by, and I mean, uh that dog, when I say he ain't moved, he he has not moved, he might be dead. And uh, so dogs strike, and they get in one of them old drainage ditches uh between those fields, and we drive up there, and we drive pretty darn close. I mean, they're hammering. There's three or four dogs down there, and they're echoing the the the the that ditch. Uh he, I mean, we're they're just right down the hill, and he looks at them and he says, Y'all ready? We yes, sir, you know. He said, Okay, go catch it. That thing came off that pillow down that hill, smoked the hole. We got down there, started tying that thing. He said, let go of it, let go of it. He said, Go get back on that four-wheeler. We tied that hole. We got back up there, that bulldog was on that pillow laying down again. This is back when remember people say, Oh, a bulldog ain't worth nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:10

That was the common theme back then. I looked at the gym and I said, anybody who said a bulldog ain't worth nothing has never met this bulldog.

unknown 1:55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:19

I come home that night and told my wife, I said, we are training dogs awfully the next one we raise, and we we did, and we've been doing that ever since. Now, ours aren't to that level, don't get me wrong, but boy, it's nice not to have to leave those things and to to be out of time. We tie ours to a tree, and then when I'm ready to go, I just unsnap them and the hall can be tied there, and I tell them to come and they'll walk out with me.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:46

Yeah, that's that's nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:48

The only time I I lead them if if a bunch of us get together and there's just a lot of noise around. Um you know, there's just a lot going on. I'll just lead them just the but heck, you you work with them enough, they lead so good. Um, but you get a good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:06

I got a head full of scents. I mean, they're smart.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:09

And and yeah, I can get people they say, oh, you can't do that with game bred dogs. Uh the dogs we're messing with are as game bred as they can be. Um you know, they're they're I I they're off of yards that people would feel to have. Oh, yeah. And and uh, you know, I was lucky as far as bulldogs, is my dad was big in the bulldogs. He he'll do anything with a bulldog, where there was the catch competitions, weight pulling, uh my mom does search and rescue with pit bulls that they love the breed. And uh, so I always had access to them dogs. And uh and like I said, it literally in in about three days I can have them things where you can work them off the bleed.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:53

Yeah, it's it usually it's not it's not that complicated with them. Uh especially if you one-on-one without a bunch of stuff going on, which that's the way it should be. Uh man, there it most I've never had one I couldn't like you said. I I could have him sitting, come here, you know, stay, just the basic stuff, you know. Yeah. Like, I mean, in in just a day or two, a couple of evenings, and and you're good.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:22

That's my the the last few we've done, my son would take them out three evenings and work with them. Yeah. And uh he's he's always been pretty good with dogs. And uh he would get them to do like everything you just said, sit, he'll stay, and in about three evenings, and then I would take them to the hog pen and make them do the same process while there's a hog there. And you know, and then when you brought them to the woods, you know, you had to be careful the first few times, but uh between them e-collars and stuff, it it's not nearly as hard as people or nearly as hard as I thought it would have been years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:02

Um and and like you just said, doing the the basic stuff first and then introducing the hog after. Yeah. That's that's what I have found to be the most successful because there have been a few times where it was on the fly and I was like, okay, try to do it here, and it's aggravating. And whatever you're doing, that dog feeds off of that. And and it's better just to go ahead and do all the basic stuff first. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:27

And that's what we've done guys where we try to raise them as puppies. Um, I am messing with one that was a little older right now, but uh, I'm messing with a puppy too. But uh, we might keep them inside for three months, four months, and and really that's just for intelligence. Um, and you and kind of I guess we bind with them and they listen a little better, but um and and that's kind of been our our process on how we approach it, and it makes the hunting so much easier, so much more enjoyable. I can go by myself and bring the bulldog and not be fighting with a bulldog and and trying to deal with with the hogs and all that if I'm by myself. Yeah. If Tiffany's with me, she goes with me a lot when we if we go during the week, it makes everything so much easier. Um, because you're not fighting that dog like it was years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:20

Hey, Michael, this uh the uh the time on my card is fixing to cut off in just a few seconds. So uh let's wrap this dude up real quick. Just looking at seeing I thought I had more time, but we didn't got a couple hours in. Hey, listen, thank you for getting on here finally. Thank it it worked out. And honestly, if you get another another spare evening or a couple hours or something like that, we'll do another one and we'll do a part two whenever you get ready. Okay, because I mean like that's the kind of conversation people want to hear. You know, that that's what our our biggest uh thing is. People like they want to hear a real conversation. Not you know, it's a QA, but it's not a QA. We're just talking. Two dummies talking. That hey that's a fact, brother. Super dummy on that thing. And we appreciate you so much. Thank you. And uh I'll get back to you. Uh see you both. All right, bye.