EP. 228 Madison Parker

In this episode we have on Madison Parker an ex navy seal, survival school teacher, and APBT enthusiast! Check out his website to see his dogs and more information

https://bulletproofkennels.com/primitive-hunting-1

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:40

Naval Special Warfare from the East Coast SEALs. And uh so I ran I ran a survival camp for them for about fifteen years. Okay. And uh so that you know was late nineties or around 2000 or so whenever. Uh well I got I got into survival camp late 90s and was fiddling around with it, not doing a whole lot, but you know, making a living. Uh then I got a contract uh right after 9-11, and they were going everywhere at that point, and they were looking for any kind of training in schools and uh any kind of development they could get as they were going, going, going. And uh I was fortunate to have my school up and running when all that when all that went down, and so I started teaching that and uh running the dogs in the camp too. And uh I was using the dogs to you know teach them, hey, look, it to me, the number one, the best if you train them right, you gotta work them though. You gotta you gotta work them, you gotta practice. You gotta bring them up, you know, when they're puppies, six months old, and I would do different kinds of uh you know, training uh different types of uh situations where they're naturally gonna go to the ground and I would g catch rats as puppies and I'd let the rat go, let the puppy go catch it, you know. And then I'd go from the rat to the squirrel, and I'd do it all in the open field where the squirrel couldn't get up a tree or anything, and just do it as puppies, you know. And then as you start going up the food chain, you know, going all the way up to raccoons and you know, bigger uh critters, you know. Yeah. And uh that helped put me, you know, in the camp, bring meat into the camp. So anyway, I I used the dogs in in my wilderness camp for years. That's pretty cool. And then uh here about probably about 10 years ago, um I slowed down on that. Well, no, my about five years ago, I slowed down on a survival camp and I built my yard up, and I'll I'm feeding probably about 20 head of dogs, and most of what I provide is dogs that are uh for that particular purpose, you know, running in the field uh in a sporting type event. Like uh I got some guys uh over in Louisiana and some in Alabama and Georgia that take their dogs out just express purpose for uh armadillas. And they just love to run armadillas, and they got places where there's a whole bunch of them, they're everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 3:57

Yeah, they're they're they're big around here too.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Yeah, it's uh it's a lot of fun, man, getting dogs on, you know, get a uh I'd usually run male, female, male, female, female, like three, a pack of three, one male and two females. And you know, if you bring them up together, and the way you get dogs, so you know, because they're naturally gonna want to fight, but what you do is you bring the male in and you got him started, and then you bring a female puppy in and let her get introduced to him, and he's obviously gonna be the alpha male. But as soon as she comes in, she submitted to the alpha male, and then you bring another female in that's a pup when she became when the first female comes in and she gets to be just above a year, then you bring another puppy female in, and then she's submitted to the female and the male. So it and she becomes beta. So you got alpha, alpha, alpha male, alpha female, beta female, and it's a pair, it's a three three-dog pair, and they're less likely to fight that way.

SPEAKER_06 5:17

Works pretty good, huh?

SPEAKER_05 5:18

Yeah, it works really good. I it took me a while to get it all worked out, but uh I just learned as I went, you know, and I've never been into any kind of obedience or any of that stuff. I just I just watch the dogs and see what they are gonna naturally do.

SPEAKER_06 5:35

But well, I think what you just said is probably gonna help more more young guys for sure, and older guys as well, uh by doing the the male and two females, because a lot of them I know they want to run two males or or just two females about the same age, and it's it turns into a headache sometimes or a lot of ruckus, if you will. And uh, and with all your uh I mean, as long as you've been doing this, I mean, I know you, you know, it's not something like you just you just started, you know, you've been doing this a long time. Uh so Nate Nate hit the record button over here, and so we wanna we wanna let the people know from what you just said, that's been that was already recorded, but let them know who you are and and then you know kind of how you got into the whole thing. How'd you even get into the dogs, Mr. Park?

SPEAKER_05 6:28

Well, we were little bitty kids in the 50s, and we had this girl dog, and she was uh this family pet and every we all loved her. And it was this boxer that lived at the end. We of course in them days everybody had about ten acres, you know. But there was a farm down the road, and they had a boxer, and they they come in there one day, we was shoot. I don't guess I was more than about five years old. My brother was three or four. Uh might have been six, he might have been five, you know, something like six. He was a year and a half younger than me. But anyway, uh them two tied up one day. We was just kids. They tied up, and uh of course they didn't really, you know, they were just growling at each other, making a fuss with each other, and then it was quit, they were both done as soon as it started, and we went in there to the house, and my old man came home, and we we were bragging about the girl dog, you know. We said, Man, she beat that dog up, and she's the best dog, and you know, we were so excited about my daddy said, Well, son, yeah, she's a fine animal, but she's not a fighting dog. And we said, Not really, she's not. And he goes, No, but there is a dog, it's called a fighting dog, and he's and it's a pit bull. And we like our ears just pick right up, look right at him like, What's that? Because that's a dog that people use to fight with. Keep in mind this is like mid-50s, you know. And uh, man, we we heard that, we both heard it, we both remembered it, and as years went by, we always were interested, but you know, we never even saw a pit bull until I think it was like the 70s, like the mid-70s or so. Really? Before we even realized what a, you know, it, because nobody around where we lived had any pit bulls. There just weren't any, you know, and and the game was really in the 50s, the game was really a small game. You know, the dog dog matching business was small, you know, that there just weren't a lot of people matching dogs in the 50s, you know. They were the to me, when I got in it, they were the ones that were finishing up, like Don Mayfield. And you know, when I got in it, old old man Ed Crenshaw was still in it, and Howard Heinsel was still in it. Of course, uh I met Maurice Carver, and I, you know, a lot of the old timers, Jaboon Treyhan. Um, of course, I knew Floyd Boudreau. We met Shinda Floyd several times. And then uh, of course, I got to know everybody really. I mean I've got Kim Woods. Yes, sir. I knew Kimsey. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 9:42

Doctor, he was a doctor. Yes, sir, down in LAJ. We uh that's one of my first times I ever traveled as a a teenager was to to go to Kimsey's yard to get a uh a bitch dog out of Davis's boomerang uh bred to uh snooty. Yeah, really. Yeah, that that was that's that's a pretty good while ago now.

SPEAKER_05 10:04

Well interesting you mentioned that because I'm running some snooty with my sorles now. Really? Yes, sir. Uh I've it took me well, it was right there before this split. I was partners with Bert S. Of course. Bert Sarles moved to my place. I had an 80-acre ranch, and we was running a bunch of dogs in those days, just like going toward the late 80s, and me and my brother had already been matching dogs for about 10 years at that point. Bert, you know, we we were friends with him on the phone, you know. We had gotten some dogs training years before, but we were running our own bloodline and uh doing real good with it. He uh I don't know, he never really told us why he left Arizona, but I think he was running from somebody or something. I don't know, it was the law or somebody, you know. And he had hauled ass from uh Arizona and came to my place. Anyway, uh going on through our uh relationship toward the end, his late 90s. Uh we had I had a good friend of mine named Roger LeBlanc, who was real close friends with Carl Mims. And Carl Mims in those days was breeding a pure, the old Snooty blood. He was breeding Snooty to his cookie. Uh cookie was out of the uh old Tudor Jeff and Tudor's baby blood. And uh another guy's name uh Hilliard Brothers. They were uh Newt Hilliard and Bishop Hilliard, and they had a run in with Bert. Bert had stole some dogs from them.

SPEAKER_06 12:02

Oh damn.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

But he knew that that snooty blood worked with his blood, he knew it. He told me so, and I brought Roger over there. We bred we bred uh Roger's male to one of my my uh raisin females, and we came out with a litter full of puppies, and one of them was now a dog named Grand Champion Ajax. It was supposed supposed to be my dog, and Bert sold him when I had to go to work. I had to go out of town for about a month when I came back. He had sold the dog. Man, and so I lost out on the Ajax dog, and then uh there were two other dogs in that litter that were both uh one was a two-time winner, the other one was a champion, and then there was uh some females in there that were winners also. That whole litter just made monster dogs. So, anyway, at from that time until now, I've been trying to uh I've had a chance to get snooty blood here and there, but I always just missed out uh because either I didn't trust the people that had it if it was real or not, and I just didn't believe that it was real. But anyway, I finally got some. It's DNA certified. Nice, nice. And uh so I've just made that first breeding with my I got a litter full of puppies snooty over sorrels. Oh and uh it's it comes down exactly, I mean, identical, same Carl Mims, Roger LeBlanc, and my sorrow's blood mixed together. It I mean, you could it's identical, it's the exact same breeding to the letter. I mean, except down by two, two or three generations down from the original breeding I made with uh Roger. Roger brought his snooty male over, and we bred him to my grazing female, and that's where we got grand champion Ajax.

SPEAKER_06 14:13

But anyway, wow, that's that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_05 14:15

Yeah, I I just put it all together. My my buddy, the guy that uh set this whole thing up with y'all. I don't I'm not a Facebook guy, he he runs my Facebook page mostly for marketing, you know. I've got a Facebook page called Mad's Bulletproof Candles, and he he takes care of it for me because I wouldn't even know how to set up a Facebook page.

SPEAKER_06 14:40

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 14:41

But uh he runs it for me, you know, mostly for marketing, you know. But uh he was watching on there the other day, they were having some argument about uh which dog would you rather have uh breed, would you rather breed to Wood Snooty or old Ed Crenshaw's Reno? Now Crenshaw's Reno was a great dog that was coming out of the cotton's bullet blood, okay? Yes, sir. And that Reno dog was responsible for producing a lot of really great dogs. And most of the time where you're seeing Iron Head bred to so-and-so female, almost every time where you're seeing Carver's Iron Head, at least half of the times you're seeing Iron Head, it's really Crenshaw's Reno. Yes, sir. Now, Reno was a good dog. I think he was a couple of time winner, but that was about it. And he was a good producer. But he's not even that what they were saying was that because Snooty had lost a match, uh, that he wasn't as good a dog. I thought, oh my gosh, these young kids are so upside down on the way these dogs are. Because the truth is, uh Ronnie Hyde ran Snooty most of the time on his yard. Now he moved around amongst a bunch of a crew between Georgia and Florida. You know, Timsywood had him, and he owned him, but Ronnie Hyde, I think he was on Ronnie's yard most of the time, and most of the breedings that were with that were done were by way of Ronnie Hyde, and they did Bloody Sunday and uh uh Hyde's Meanie. Of course, Hyde's Meanie is really not Hyde's Meanie. Hyde's Meanie is actually Hunter's Sam Hunter's uh Tana.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:44

So when you see Hyde's Meanie, it's actually Hunter's Tana. Everywhere you see Meanie, it's Tana.

SPEAKER_06 16:52

Anyway, it's crazy how those pedigrees got kind of, you know.

SPEAKER_05 16:56

Well, that was that was Ronnie Hyde doing that. Yes, sir. Yeah, and and Maurice Carver, too. They all did it. They all did it. But it was the game was small in those days, and they had to protect themselves because everybody knew what everyone else was breeding, so they would switch pedigrees to uh hide what they were actually coming with.

SPEAKER_06 17:20

Anyway, I was always told don't give them the recipe to beat you with.

SPEAKER_05 17:25

No, you know, well, they they that's why the pedigree switching was so popular. 50s, 60s, and 70s, and even going into the 80s, they were switching pets because they these dog men didn't want anybody else to know what they were using because the game was real small in those days. And well, going into the 80s, it started to get really big. But uh in the 60s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, the game was rather small, and everybody knew what everyone else was using, so that's why they would switch pads. There was a good reason for it, but it kind of messed the game up a little bit for understanding what you had. But I came up under the right people, and I learned most of the switches early on. But anyway, getting back to Snooty and regarding, you know, the Snooty dog wasn't, I wouldn't say in the box a better dog, but he was a good dog. He was a two-time winner, one-time game loser, and everybody accounts him as being a curr. I don't know where they got that idea because Snooty, in my knowledge, never stopped. And I know for a fact that he got matched at least 10 or 12 times. Actual matches, contract matches. That dog was unbeatable. He was incredibly a badass dog, and he whipped everybody. He lost a couple of matches. Out of 10 or 12 matches, he only lost two. But they didn't record all of them. And he should have been a grand champion, but I think there were some losses in there too. Yes, sir. But the thing, the thing that really aggravates me is these young people think that Snooty no good because he had lost a match. Man, I can't, you know, the when you breed when you're breeding dogs, you know, Snooty. I mean, you think about Prince Charles Reno produced a lot of great dogs, but he can't he's not even in the same league as Snooty. I mean, Snooty got bred a lot, but there's whole bloodlines based on him. Yes. I mean, several different directions. Tom Garner's got that spike dog and been breeding that blood through uh what is that uh Santos? The Santos dog?

SPEAKER_06 19:53

Yeah, I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

Uh-huh. And so he's got his snooty line. And then uh, so he Tom Garner's got his snooty line. And then there's uh Carl Mim's wife, she has Snooty up there pure, and then there's some guys over in uh I want to say Louisiana that's got some snooty. If they they've mostly died out by now, but I've got it. I've got it as pure as you can get it uh for how long ago he died, you know. But I've got mine DNA certified, and uh I know for a fact that the Snooty Dog was freaking, he was a monster, and he never got credit in the box. Now he's getting a lot of credit for being a producer. Yes, sir. I don't think anybody can argue that. But uh he was he was quite a dog in the box. Uh if they would have been done right, you know, he probably shouldn't have been matched as many times as he did, but you know, that was the way the game was. You got a winner, they keep going back until the well runs dry, you know.

SPEAKER_06 21:02

That's right. Like you said, not all of them were recorded.

SPEAKER_05 21:05

Oh that's right.

SPEAKER_06 21:06

There's dogs that that might be on paper that say, you know, three-time winner, but they might have had you know ten or or more, you know. Yeah, that doesn't count for the you know, the little backyard rolls or the taking them to school for a few minutes or or none of that, you know.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

So that that's just the off-the-chain, off the chain matches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:28

There, I've seen a lot of money.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

A lot of money on the off-the-chain matches. And I think a handful of Snooty's matches were off the chain. He was just that good of a dog. Yep. Because I always said a dog even went off the chains, an exceptional dog, because you know, you're just spur of the moment. You're no conditioning, no shape, no workout, no health, nothing. Just put him down, take him off the chain and go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:58

I've I've asked people about that before, Mr. Parker, and you'd be surprised at the amount of people, even with the hog dog side of things today, you know, is what I'm talking about. Uh they don't condition their dogs at all. So everything is pretty much off the chain. You know, I'm like, so do y'all do y'all keep your dogs in shape? And the majority is is no. Most of them don't. They they take their bulldogs and they put them on a four-wheeler, they ride out there, bay dogs, bay a hog up, they send the bulldog in. And then they wonder why the heat stroke or wonder why they're they're wore out after one or two catches. And I've actually had some other guys tell me that, you know, the um I had one guy out in North Texas. He told me he said, uh, a pit bull can't can't do what some of these other dogs do. I said, buddy, you ain't never seen a pit bull.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Well, I guarantee you a pit bull, if he's conditioned, can outwork any dog there is. Amen. Any dog. A good bred, purebred American pit bull terrier, if he's conditioned, will stay all night. All night long. Back in the day, my brother went four hours with one of ours. Wow. We went four hours. And then we also had three other dogs that we went three hours with. Jesus. So we had all we had four different dogs that went three hours and one went four. So don't tell me they uh run out of gas or they can't do what these other dogs do. Man, I'd fact mine against any of them as far as conditioning. And if I was a young man and I was running hogs like I used to, I'd be working my dogs nightly. The nights I wasn't running hogs, I would be rocking working them. Yes, sir. And I'd probably give them two days off a week, and I'd work them every night, except the night that I was running hogs. So with the if you're running.

SPEAKER_06 24:06

Could you tell some of the what you would do like as far as like exercises and to keep a dog in shape like that?

SPEAKER_05 24:12

Yeah. Um well I've got several technologies. I I've got an old turntable that uh I use I love to turn table, and it's pre-spinning, so it's not it's not physically hard for them to turn it. In other words, once they get it going, it just spins freely, and so they're not, it's kind of like jogging, you know, or if they want to run fast, they can it it'll go fast, but they can get on it and trot, and so it, but it's not physically pushing them uh muscular-wise. Then the other technology is carpet mill, and now that while it does work their wind like the turntable, it also doesn't turn unless they push on it, so it takes a certain amount of muscle pressure, friction to uh get it to turn. So they have to get it started and they have to continue pushing it for it to turn. So as soon as they don't push, it doesn't stop. Now, like a slat mill or a turntable, they just freeze spinning, and while that is good for the air, it's not good for the strength and the power of a dog. Okay, so I think the carpet meal is better suited to overall conditioning, whereas the turntable's good, uh, but it won't build a lot of strength in the dog, but it will build a lot of endurance, depending on what you're looking for. I got you. But uh, so I like to use both. I like the turntable and I like the carpet meal. And you know, if I was running hogs twice a week, maybe say say you're running hogs if you're working for a living, probably don't run hogs during the week much, maybe Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night, and then you're done. The rest of the week, I would be putting them on the carpet mill, you know, for about anywhere from 30 minutes on the low end up to an hour, you know, on the high end. Okay. That would be on the nights I'm not hunting. You know, that's be the nights that I'm not running hogs. And uh, and then the night I was running hogs, of course, you know, hopefully he's doing a little bit of workout just by getting in there. If you catch something, some people like to pre free run their uh pit bulls, but uh uh it just depends on the hunter and and the person hunting and the way they their technology, the way they approach it. But uh I know my buddy down there, uh pretty much my partner really, he uh he lets his pit bull run. He lets it straight up run. So it it's just like a you know, it can smell the hog and run it down and catch it. And uh so that's what he uses. And uh it's a straight up American pit bull terrier. And man, she's that bitch can bite, buddy. She's that bitch, she'll kill a hog. She killed many hogs. She she bite its head, caved its head in, caved one of them's heady, and just bit it so hard it just caved his between his eyes. Yep, just pop it. Just caved a hurting. Yeah. Strong, really incredible bite power.

SPEAKER_06 27:50

Yeah, I think they're underrated for their their hunting ability. Uh yeah, they are. They're they're very underrated. I sent one to a guy in Texas. He's got him right now. Uh he's a two going on three-year-old dog, and he free cast him, which I mean, he goes to feeders and a lot of them are shorter runs, but he he put his cur dogs up, and all he takes is that male dog and a young female now. And uh, and he catches more hogs with them than he has with anything. Yeah, it works good for him. It might not work for for everywhere, you know, like where we live at in all the hills and the mountains, and we don't have a lot of hogs, it would be a lot harder. But, you know, if I lived where there was a bigger population, I'd I'd just be turning Bulldog foods.

SPEAKER_05 28:38

Sure. You know, if you get them started on it when they're young, you know, and keep them going on it, they get that scent. They're they're good. That don't let anybody tell you a pit bull can't smell, they can. Not all of them. They're some of them you can and some of them they can't. Yes. Uh, but mostly once you start them, if you get them started on a pig young, say eight months old, get them started, you know, and then work them all the way up to a to a big sow, hell, they're ready to hunt. You know, by the time they get to be a year, a year and a half, they're already caught hogs, you know. Yes, sir. And uh, so yeah, I mean, you can bring you can bring other dogs in. If you you've got a female that hunts really good for you, bring a young puppy male in there with her, and he'll be submitted to her from then on. He's won ever fight her. But you gotta bring him in as a puppy, and she's like already a seasoned catch dog. So you bring a young puppy in there male, and man, then you got a team, and uh that's really, really good right there. Male, female team, yeah, that's the way to go.

SPEAKER_06 29:57

Yeah, that that's what he's doing right now, and it's it's working really good for him. Um but there's I I had a well, I got one question for you. Uh, and it's uh it's an age-old question, of course. It's the definition of gameness. What is your definition of gameness? And also the second part to the question would be can you really test true gameness on anything other than an equal opponent?

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Yeah, um, yeah, that second part, just remind me on that one, Doug. The um first part of the question is what is gameness? Well, gameness is uh a dog that under no circumstances will ever quit in the face of death. In other words, if he has a chance to like get out of the fight or get out of the situation, uh and he takes it, then he's not a game dog. But if in the face of he knows if he stays there, uh he's gonna die, that's a game dog. And uh so game this can only be achieved by breeding against nature. So the achievement of game this is this if you look in nature and you get a lion in the uh savanna out there in Africa, and he's just killed him a big old whatever buck or whatever, big deer, or whatever he's called him a deer, and he's eaten that deer, and the hyenas come around. The hyenas can take that carcass away from that lion because the lion is not a game animal, he is a wild animal that knows that if he gets hurt, he's done, he can never live, he can't live. Uh he won't live because if he gets hurt, he can't hunt. He can't hunt, he's gonna starve to death. So, what you're doing with a pit bull, and it's the only dog that I know of, including your Jack Russell's or your Patterdales or your Jag Terriers, some of those dogs might or might not, but I don't I I can't speak to them because I don't know enough about them. But they haven't been bred the way pit bulls have. So pit bulls have been bred against nature in that unlike a lion or a wolf, the wolf's the same way. A predator or a bobcat, they're gonna leave that carcass. If the hyena comes in and there's a bunch of them, he knows he can't keep that carcass, he's gonna have to leave. Even though he's king of the jungle or king of the savannah, he's gonna have to leave. If there's enough hyenas, they're gonna run him off. Yes, he has to leave. He has to. Whereas a pit bull won't, they will not leave. But breeding against nature is breeding a male to a female, get the puppies and raising them up. And when the time comes, in the old days, what you do is you would put the dog up. First, you dog your school a dog, start him out maybe 10 minutes, and put him back on the chain and you know, encourage him, tell him it's a good dog, and then a couple months later go back and do it maybe 15 minutes and then put him up, encourage you. And then a couple months after that, go in 30 minutes, put him up and encourage him. And then the final time would be get a dog equal size, equal weight, put him down 20-30 minutes. When he's starting to blow, pull him apart, take the dog you're looking at, and put a fresh dog on him. And if he stays, if he stays, he's game. If he stays, he's game. That's right. Okay. So you put a fresh dog on him, and that's that's if you want to find out if he's game or not, that's what you gotta do. Yes, sir. But a lot of people, you know, the old days, like I got me and my brother got to the point where we didn't even roll our dogs very long at all. We'd roll them maybe two times, you know, school them twice. And then uh after we'd seen all we needed to see, after 20 minutes, that was it. We were going with them. Why? Because we knew our blood, we knew our dogs, and we knew where they came from. We knew who the mama was and who the daddy was, and we trusted our blood, and we conditioned them, and then we went with them. So we never really had to do that heavy two-dogging. Every now and then, you know, we would. If we weren't sure about a particular dog or weren't sure about this, then maybe he made a bad move or something like that. Maybe he was a good dog, but he made a bad move. Uh, to find out, we would maybe two-dog him. Or the other way to do it would be uh get him, get him uh on a treadmill and get him worn down, get him tired, and then put a fresh dog on him when he's tired. And you'll find out real quick, it doesn't take long. Yeah. Because if he's out of air, most dogs won't quit from being bit. Most dogs will quit from being out of air. If they're out of air, they'll quit quicker than they will if they're getting bit. Getting bit won't stop a dog most of the time. Not always, but most of the time, a good dog won't quit from being bit. He'll quit from being out of air air. When you get him blowing so hard where he can't breathe good and he's choking, you know, he's so uh out of air. Yes, um, he'll if he's a cur, he'll quit. Yep. But uh that's the that was the way we would do it. And the treadmill method for us was a really good way because you could find out real quick before he even got hurt. You could find out, you know, because you already got him on the treadmill for 35, 40 minutes, and he's pretty well tired, and you put a fresh dog on him, only takes about 10 minutes to find out. So, you know, and that was that was a good way of doing it without hurting a dog, you know. But uh, and then what was the second part of that?

SPEAKER_06 36:57

It well, you honestly to me, I understood where you you answered it for me, but for clarity for some for the listeners, is there any way to to test true gameness on anything other than another American Pitbull Terrier of equal size, equal weight, you know what I mean? Like you're talking about. So what I'm saying is, can you can you take a bulldog that's out of game game lines, take him to the woods and put him on a 200-pound boar hog one time and say, boy, that's a game dog. No, exactly. I just I don't think, and I mean he might be a gamey dog, you know, but yeah, it's the definitely game, like you said, uh if uh if a hog gets hurt bad enough, he's gonna try to run. Not uh, and and some of them will fight till they, you know. And that's that's the thing. That that's what I wanted to know. I've had a several, I mean, well, dozens, dozens of people. I'm not gonna say they argued with me because I didn't even argue, I didn't entertain it because you know how that goes, but most of them are like, well, you can test it if it fights with a uh a hog on the ground or something like that, and it stays out there for 30 minutes, it's kind of like you, if you've never seen true gameness, then you don't know if you've never really seen it. You know, it's it's not entertaining.

SPEAKER_05 38:21

Yeah, no, it's not. You you you know, a dog that a dog that got on a 300-pound hog and stopped the hog and beat the hog, and you know, you can't call that dog game. The only way to find out truthfully is put him on another dog that condition equal equal weight, equal size. You'll find out that way. Yes, sir. Okay, you can never call a dog game unless he gets pushed far enough. You really can't. Yeah, you can say he's game bred. There you go. They're game bred, they're bred to be game, but they're not necessarily game dogs. You can't prove they're game, really.

SPEAKER_06 39:08

So that okay. That that was like I said, that was one of the questions I wanted to do. And it was just for clarity. You know, uh yeah. But no, that I it's and like you said, a lot of it are is um and it's not all just real young, young guys that are doing it. You know, it's guys that just don't know. They were they were never around the era that that I grew up in. And so they they have no idea. All they know is what they've read or what they've heard, and they're they're making judgment based off of that. And so, you know, I I get their side of it too, but at the same time, I'm like, guys, that's not the same thing. I mean, staying caught on a hog for 30 minutes and the dog's hot, he's worn out, and all that stuff. I'm like, it it's nothing like a two-hour plus match. It's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

No. Yeah, these these uh young guys.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

It's not in my opinion, the only true test of a dog is a show is a match. You're not testing by catching a 250, 300 pound borehog. You're pushing, but he's not getting game tested.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

No, he's just getting pushed. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 40:40

Uh you gotta you gotta put him on a dog his weight and uh condition the same way he is, and find out that's the only way to really know. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 41:17

Now you you said that y'all found out pretty quick without having to go through a long process because of the line of dogs that y'all had bred for so long, and you knew you already knew what to kind of look for. So where what were the kind of the telltale signs uh or certain traits that you could see early on in these dogs?

SPEAKER_05 41:39

Well say you got a dog that's uh 13, 14, 15 months old, and you rolled him a couple of times, and then you're coming down uh maybe the third time you see a bad move. Like he makes a move like a turn, you know. Kind of a turn, you know. You know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about. Make a turn, or maybe he makes a head fake that just doesn't look right, you know what I mean? And you go, what was that? Oh, well, hmm, I don't know what that was. So we put him up and then what that's when if we we thought he was a talented dog, you know, that was worthy of a match, say you assume that you know he's worthy of a match because he's got a lot of talent, but he made a bad move. So what you do is uh put him on treadmill for about 30 or 40 minutes and uh getting worn out, getting tired where he's blowing. You put him on a good dog, you'll find out in about 10 minutes. It doesn't take long. It's a good way because you don't have to bite him down to find out if he's a good dog or not. When I say good dog, I mean a game dog. Yes. A lot of times Yeah, you know the mama and you know the daddy. And most of the time in the 70s, eighties, and even into the nineties. We didn't uh we didn't breed dogs that we weren't winning with, you know. We if we want to match with him, we'd breed him. If we had not masked him, we often we wouldn't breed him, you know what I mean? Him or her we'd often just skip over him, you know. Because we always had our best go-to dogs to breed. So we knew what mom and daddy were, and so we would uh use that basis to uh make our breeding, and so we kind of knew uh that pups should run you know what you got for the mom and the daddy as long as you know what they are. You don't really have to push them through a game test because you already know what they are because every time you roll a dog, take a little bit out of it. Now I'm talking about a serious roll like 30 minutes. Yes, sir. You are taking a little bit off of it.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

So a lot of times in our day, we wouldn't we wouldn't leave them down too long.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

We'd say, man, we s we saw what we liked and we knew the style was good, the solid, pretty solid bite, you know, very eager, scratching hard, you know, that sort of thing. Heck man, let's roll with him, open him up. Get the get the weight on him and send it in. You know, that's the way it was.

SPEAKER_06 45:04

What what was the main kind of what what was the main weight class or weight size, not class, but the size that you guys ran? Uh after and and how long was your keep?

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Well, smallest dog we ever matched was uh twenty seven pounds.

SPEAKER_05 45:26

And we had uh 27 male and a 29 female, and then we matched every weight class all the way up to a 50 pounder. 50 was the biggest dog we ever matched, and 27 was the smallest dog we ever matched. Wow. And I think we matched everybody all the weights in between, at least once. But our average matches weights were probably between 36 to about 42. That was about running, that was about a general rule of thumb as far as weights on our dogs.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

So you your your keep that you guys doing that y'all put it through, um how how long were there where's your keep getting him in shape?

SPEAKER_05 46:27

Well we usually do a two-week warm-up, pre-keep. Yes, sir. And that was where you worm the dog out. You don't really work him much. You worm him and you get his weight down and process, get that weight where you want it. And then like say if he was going at 36 pounds, you bring him to a 34 and hold him there, and then bring him from 34 back up to a couple of pounds above 36, so usually about 38.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

So you work him at 38.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

But you bring him to 34 uh to get that gut fat off of him, you gotta get that off.

SPEAKER_05 47:32

And once you get that gut fat off, bring him back up to 38 and start working him up about six weeks, you know, to be ready. Okay. The dog will peak at five, five and a half weeks, six weeks, right at six weeks he'll peak if you're working right. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

But everybody's peak is different. And uh you never you know we ran into people that had good peeps and we ran into people that didn't. And uh me and my brother had a name for conditioning dogs.

SPEAKER_05 48:20

We were we had everybody in the country asking us to work dogs for well, I mean you were you're a Navy SEAL.

SPEAKER_06 48:33

Yeah, correct? So I mean, you know, you had you knew how to be in shape. And yeah, I mean, I've seen pictures of you and your brother as well, and both you guys were in good shape.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, we were. You know. And we understood that part of it.

SPEAKER_06 48:50

So other than you guys, who do you think had the best keep out there that was uh you know, matching dogs that you ran into?

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Well them so so boys were pretty good.

SPEAKER_05 49:10

Um Leander Daigle Cajun from uh over in Louisiana can shape a dog pretty good. I don't know a lot of times, you know, honestly, without giving away the too many secrets, that's right. I don't really hold secrets too much anymore because I'm not in it no more, you know. That's right. But a slat mill keep never produced the power, and it seems like while they had plenty of air, they didn't have any strength. And we were always glad when we find out so and so uses a slat mill.

SPEAKER_06 50:03

Because it it turns so much easier, and uh the dog doesn't have to put any type of pressure down to make it turn. So, like you said, it it can build lung capacity and and keep the wind going, but it doesn't build the front end strength, you know.

SPEAKER_05 50:20

Yeah, flight mills are good overall conditioning, but I don't think they're the best. They they're not as good as a carpet mill, they're just not. I know that. Yeah, I've proven that. I tell you a story about old Tom Garner.

SPEAKER_06 50:36

Yeah, tell us one then.

SPEAKER_05 50:38

Oh my gosh. I never saw him step over the wall, and I was at shows where he was at. That always measured a dog man by if he was doing it or was he paying someone else to do it, you know? And while he got that dog, you're putting him through to keep, and you're making developing a relationship with him, and then you wash them, you weigh them, you weigh them first, then you wash them, then you go to the box and you step over the wall. I've seen people, I've seen men almost faint from uh the stress of it. Because, you know, you develop a relationship with your dog, and next thing you know, you're putting him in there to get him killed. You know, that's pretty traumatic for a lot of people. Yep. And it never gets easy, it's always stressful. So, anyway, my brother was had some dogs up in North Carolina with some guy that was, you know, farm, we were farming them out to him, you know, and he was a good friend of my brother's, and he got in some trouble. My brother shows up up there, and it was at Fort, and he was trying to get the dogs back, you know, and the court recognized my brother owned them, and it was a big argument. Apparently, Tom Garner was there. I wasn't there, I didn't need. But he had befriended my brother and had him over to dinner, or you know, he took him out to dinner or something like that. And asking my brother if he'd conditioned dogs for him, if he'd shaped dogs for him, if he'd do that. And my brother kept telling him no, I don't.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

He wasn't gonna do it. Yes, sir. I don't know. I don't I don't want to talk bad about Tom Garden.

SPEAKER_06 52:46

Oh no, no, it's I mean, it's a story, it's history. I mean, that's what we're doing, you know. Like, yeah, I I know you're not talking, you're not talking bad about him. You just it's something that happened. There was a lot of guys that didn't step over the wall like that own dogs, you know.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 53:04

There was a lot of them.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

I seen guys step over the wall and faint. Referee had to go in there and grab the dog. And then the guy comes to and goes, What happened? Nothing happened yet. That's right. And then the guy comes to and you still ain't, you know, and give him a little uh people recognize, you know, that sort of thing happens. Yeah. It's a very it's a traumatic experience. Not for everybody, but the people that love their dogs, it can be very stressful. Yes, sir. And uh, you know, it's time to go.

SPEAKER_06 53:45

That that's that's right. When it gets to where it's that point there, then it's it's just not for you anymore, you know, if it gets to where it just weighs on you so much. You know. My my dad, he he was pretty heavy into it for many years. And uh I can remember going up to uh just south of Memphis in the Delta right there up there to Mr. Burton's up at Greasy Corner. And uh watching it, you know. And I was just a little, I was a kid, young kid. And I mean, I was like, this is it was just wild. I grew I grew up around it, so it really wasn't nothing out of the ordinary for me. But once I got old enough to to do my own thing, like you said, it is stressful. You grow a relationship with that dog, and it's not so easy just to turn him loose.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

It's a very stressful thing because you know you go through a long six, eight-week, you know, workup, and even before that, you raise him from a puppy, you fall in love with him, you just and then you decide you want to do him because he's a good dog, you want to prove him, and you want to take a chance with him, and that sort of thing. And anyway, all that all that time, you know, years, sometimes you uh you've develop this relationship with your dog, and next thing you know, sure, you're putting him in there, possibly, you know, of course, you always have the option. That was the thing that the uh humane society never understood. You always have the option of picking the dog up if you're losing bad enough. Yes. You know, if you're losing.

SPEAKER_06 55:32

If you see a two-time loser, they didn't fight to the death. That's not what really happened, is what you're saying. Not every time. It sometimes things happen, but you know, that uh I guess it's knowing when to when to say when. If you have a dog that's that good, the other dog might just be a better dog that day. You know? And so why why would you say, well, I'll just let him keep on going until it's over, and well, you could just pick him up and you study him and pick him up and go with him another another time, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:12

Uh it might just be uh he didn't take his keep right or he couldn't work feeling good.

SPEAKER_06 56:21

Yes. That that's what I was taught. But dog dogs are are are just like us, they have bad days too. Absolutely. You know, uh, he might have had a headache or something. That's that's what happened to Snooty, he just wasn't feeling good that day.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

That's right. That's well you know, breeding today.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

We tried to breed our best to our best. But a lot of times the dog wasn't just the best in that you know, his performance, but most importantly, he had the right pedigree. How was he bred? If he had a good enough pedigree, even if he quit, you can still get good dogs off of Kerr. A lot of people won't agree with that, but I guarantee I've seen it happen. Yes, sir. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a dog sired by cur become a great dog.

SPEAKER_06 57:38

So for definitions, uh define what a cur is for some of the listeners who don't know, because a lot of these guys they think a cur is a black mouth cur, what we're talking about, or something. And also what's a cold, what's a cold dog and what's a cur dog. And a rap cur.

SPEAKER_05 57:57

Yeah, a cur is just a dog that uh he was getting pushed. Okay, there's levels of cur, too. Just like there's levels of game dog. There's deep, deep game, and then there's just game enough to win. And then there's uh curs, and then there's curs that won't quit if they're on top. But they're a cur. They're a cur, but if they're on top, they won't quit. I can't tell you how many dogs I've seen that I knew that I saw them stop already and go in there. If they're on top, they're gonna win. Yes, sir. As long as they're on top, they're gonna win. And nobody'll ever know they're a cur. So you have hers that won't quit as long as they're on top. Then you have hers that'll, you know, rank hers that are, you know, just that's a dog you gotta, you know. If you didn't do your homework, you find out too late. As soon as he finds out he can't dominate that other dog, he's gonna quit. That's what you call a rank her, maybe 10 minutes in, you know what I mean? Yes, sir. Ten minutes in, and uh they're already quit because they know that they can't dominate that other dog. So there's levels of cur. Then some dogs shoot. I seen dogs do go two hours and stop. And the old timers calling them cur. And I don't call them cur. I just think they just weren't game enough to win, but they were they were pretty game. They go two hours into a really good dog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:02

You know, and and that mattered a lot what dog they were going into, correct? That's right. That's right.

unknown 1:00:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:11

And it's likely that he could come back out and win, even though he had stopped before. I've seen so many curs win. I've seen so many good dogs lose, all because of the handler and the conditioner. Yes, sir. All of it depends on the handler and the conditioner. It's a good dog, every every good dog. Not all good dogs, because some good dogs are good dogs regardless of who handles or works them. So I've seen you know, a really good dog when you got an idiot behind it. Yeah. And he wins regardless, you know. That's right. He he wins no matter what. Then you got a a game dog, good game dog, that loses because he done wasn't done right, didn't get properly dealt with, you know. Missed his weight, that meant they called his weight wrong, matched him too light, or matched him at the wrong weight, and didn't work him properly, didn't feed him properly. Best dog lost because the handler and conditioner. Yes, sir. So I've seen all I've seen it all, man. Seen every kind of bad situation and it come down. I've seen it all. That's why these young guys talking on Facebook, talking about Snooty this and Reno that. Yeah, they both great dogs, both great dogs. Snooty was a Snooty will go in the history book as a one of the greatest dogs that's ever lived. Because he's he's still producing great blood. He's still producing great dogs.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:22

I had no idea you were running that had built that Snooty line back up there. That's that's that's I got it. I got it DNA certified. That is badass right there. That because that right there, that's one reason why I kind of I've got my son Nate. We went and got him a little female off some old stock that we had several years ago. And uh which and I just haven't found much of nothing that I really cared for. I've tried several, but I just once we got out of it, like I just was completely out of it. And uh I have wanted to get me a just a pup, you know, for myself. Hand me a little riding buddy, armadillo getter, you know, or something like that. And yeah, I I was and I literally was talking about it the other day, and I was like, man, I just wish I could find something like that now. And I had no idea that you had that.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:14

I got exactly the way it I bred the Ajax dog. If you study that pedigree, it's on my website. Okay. You go in there, I've got Ajax, and most people don't. These young kids today, they don't even know what they're looking at.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:30

Oh no. Wrap it up.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:34

Most of them, all they do is uh just, you know, they holler, well, it's Jeep and Red Boy. That's all I hear. It's Jeep and Red Boy. I'm like, dude, Jeep's wrong. Jeep Jeep's been dead since like 76. Like, what the hell's wrong with you? But it it's kind of funny, like you said, they most of them they just don't know. They it's what they've read and what information out there, a lot of it's incorrect.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:00

Well, I'll tell you what happened with the red boy. The red boy and the yellow john dog, both okay great dogs. They themselves were great dogs. And what happened was the wrong people got a hold of them. I mean, in the early going, they were great. But what you have now, the people that have them have run them into the ground and overbred them and watered it down so much to where all you hear is these people saying, What are you running? and they they run a lot deep, red boy, rascal, tombstone, bolio. Yeah, and they run so many names at you in one dog. I'm going, okay, scatterbreed. Yeah, it's all over the place. And what happens when you scatterbreed? You're likely to get some really talented dogs, but if you keep doing it, you're gonna lose what you got. Yes, you're gonna lose what you started doing. You know, you if you don't keep it lined, lined up, you're gonna hold on to what you got by line breeding. But if you start scatterbreeding it, you're losing everything you started with. Yes, sir. But what happened with a Jeep? Uh excuse me, yeah, Jeep, Red Boy, Tombstone, Bolio, all that blood got watered down, and I guarantee you, I don't know what's going on today in the match pit. I wouldn't know any of them for I don't I don't even like that crowd. Same here. But I guarantee you, I don't I wouldn't uh I doubt I doubt if the the front runners are using that blood there. No. But what happened was the red boy, yellow John Lion were really good dogs in their day. They were in their day, what they were as good as they got. But the same thing, if you look go back in the 70s and 80s, and you take the Eli strain from the Boudreaux line and the Eli dogs of Billy's son, Eli Jr., and Brendy mostly. Yes, sir. The same thing happened to them that happen that's going on right now with the red boy strain. They watered it down so much to where I wouldn't trust any of it. Yeah, that's I'm not saying that the red boy line isn't good, but the truth is, how do you know you're really getting red boy? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:56

It's not the same as it was 20 years ago, and it's definitely not. Same as it was 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:02

No, definitely not. Well, me and my brother matched our first dog in 1976.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:09

Mm-hmm. So y'all been doing that for a while. Yeah. So now the first match that y'all done, was it your own personal dog or were you handling for somebody at that time? No.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:23

It was a dog. It was a Jimmy Boots dog. Jimmy Boots. Man. Jimmy Boots bred. He wasn't fired by Jimmy Boots. He was he was fired by a dog named Brother Bill. Greenwood's brother, brother Bill. Okay. I got you. And old Brother Bill wasn't much of a dog.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:44

I don't guess I knew him. I know the Jimmy Boots dog.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:49

Yeah, he produced a dog. Jimmy Boots produced a dog named Brother Bill. Ralph Greenwood owned him. And a guy named Bob Grey bought bought Brother Bill from Ralph Greenwood. And I think he matched him into a guy named uh Bob Merritt. Okay. And Bob Merritt told me later, some years later, that he stopped the Brother Bill Dog. But uh I didn't see it. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But we had a little dog sired by that brother Bill Dog. And that dog was real game, but the most important thing about him was he could breathe underwater. He man, that dog had so much air, and he was a great defensive dog. He never got hot and he just defense you. You push, you get him on a driver, you'd never touch him. Really? He'd get on your head and let you push him all around the pit. That was our first dog, the first dog we ever matched. He didn't even have any bite. He couldn't bite. Really? Not only could he not bite, he didn't have no finish. He wouldn't even kill one. If he got it down, he just hold on to it. He wouldn't stop it. We never did breed him, but um that was our first dog that we ever matched. That was around 76 or 77, something like that. Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:38

So that that led you into to to to getting to where you are now. So what was the first uh what was the first win, the first big win that you guys had, and which dog was it? Uh and what dog did you go into?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:55

Well I guess our big win, we had matched the dog named. I had gone over, I was in the navy in the SEALs. And uh I had been invited to go down to Mexico. I was in the SEALs on the West Coast. And I had been invited by Bert Charles to meet down in Tijuana, which San Diego is right next door to Tijuana. And in them days you could just drive down there. You didn't even all you needed a driver's license, they let you go down there. Wow. You didn't have to have a passport or nothing like you do now, you know. But he invited me to go down there and that Johnny Walker Red Dog was matched in a big match, 10 match convention, a big old show right there in Tijuana.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:10

Johnny Walker Red.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:11

And old Johnny Walker Red, he was a we won with him that night. And uh when they come across the border, I was on a motorcycle, so I was by myself. But Bert had Johnny Walker Red in the truck with him. When they come across the border, somebody had tipped the border patrol off that they had been fighting dogs down there in Mexico. That if you had a dog in your truck, they're gonna pull you over. And nobody knew it but Bert come up there and they confiscated the dog, and uh Bert got put in jail, you know, he bailed out because they they couldn't prove anything because they were just had a dog in the truck, you know. But had a few bite marks on him. He was a good dog. Um he was a two-time winner that night. Anyway, um, so me and a buddy of mine set up a uh a Navy SEAL buddy of mine. I told him about it. He goes, let's go in there and get him. I said, Okay, let's go. So he was in a county animal shelter, big old. This wasn't no small place, man. This thing is like 15 acres and facility.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:52

Y'all went full extraction, y'all went extraction mode.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:55

I'm talking this place was a San Diego County animal shelter. Holy shit. It covered everything in entire San Diego County, which is a huge county. A lot of people. Wow, a lot of dogs. They probably had three or four hundred dogs in there, you know, and uh anyway. So uh me and my buddy we set the plan up and we figured out how to do it, and we went in there and got him out. Sweet. And uh I ended up giving him back to Bert and I got a couple of dogs from Bertie gave me the dogs, and then I end up getting Johnny Walker Red back and brought him to Florida, and we matched him and we made a champion out of him. So that was one of our first big, big shows. We made a champion who was already a two-time winner. We matched him this third time and made a three-time winner with Johnny Walker Red, man. Wow, probably our our biggest opener. You know, we had matched a couple dogs before that, but that was a big one when we were newcomers. We had our first champion.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:14

Yeah, that's that's that's pretty big there. Big stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:18

And then uh we went on to make old Joe Tessman a champion, got him as a puppy. Bert gave me that dog for stealing Johnny Walker Red back. I gave Johnny Walker back to Bert, and then later on he sent him back to me because he wanted me to do it. Mike wanted me to match him. So I made a three-time winner on him. He died on my yard. Hell yeah. But uh then we took old Joe Testament from a puppy all the way through three matches, made a champion out of him. Then we did uh his brother or his son, a champion Uncle Bud, won three with him. Then we had a brother of Uncle Bud and won two with him. His name was Crazy Horse. He would have he was a better dog than Uncle Bud, but he got killed by water mox and bit him and bit him and swollen up and killed him. Oh damn. Broke our hearts, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:22

So that that crazy horse dog, I've heard of that dog before.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:28

He was he was probably the best dog I ever owned. Really. That dog could bite. Oh my gosh. Nothing could stay with him. Nothing. He bit both dogs down short, very short orders. He never had to go more than he never had to go more than about uh, I want to say, I don't think we're pretty sure. We never had to go more than about 35, 40 minutes with him. He just bites you down. So it was two times. First time we bashed him, he he wasn't even turned off. We bashed him without even rolling. Well, we rolled him one time and he bit so hard. We thought, damn, pick up, pick up, pick up. Because we didn't want to kill the dog we had him on. So we picked him up. You know, the other dog took care of him, he was okay. But we thought, damn, dogs hard, man. Let's match him. So we had already won with his brother, Uncle Bud, had already won a match, and was only uh about 15 months old when we matched him. Really? He really wasn't even turned on. I was gonna say that's that's pretty young. Yeah, he was really young. But we'd won, we'd made a champion out of his daddy and a one-time winner out of his mother. And his brother was a one-time winner. Thought, what the hell? Let's go.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:58

Yeah. So I mean, that's producing, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:00

Uh-huh. We took him over to uh Natchez, Natchez, Mississippi. And we matched him into a guy uh I think it was I think it was like 40, 40 pounds, 39 or 40, something like that. And uh man, they oh credit horse wasn't even turned on because we had only put him down for like not even a minute when he bit that dog. Bit that dog so hard we picked him up maybe two minutes. Uh but we put him in there with that dog in Mississippi, and he just slung us around for about 25 minutes, grabbed us by the neck and just snatching us all around, and the crazy horse wasn't even doing anything. He wasn't even trying to fight back or nothing, he was just getting slung around. And I think he finally realized after about 25 minutes ago, man, I'm tired of this shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:06

And he just changed, he just changed his mind. He turned around, it's like he where the dog had him in the neck hole. He turned around and got under his uh brisket, like in his rib cage.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:26

And he bit that dog one time. He got his back legs under him and got his bottom jaw like a can opener, literally crushed his rib cage and and bit right into his heart and killed that dog just like in one bite. Damn. Killed him. That dog, blood come out of that dog like you pour oil onto uh the pit floor like uh like a quart of oil. Like if you just poured it straight into the pit. I thought I never seen anything like it. And I thought, damn, that dog just laid over there dead. It's like, what? We were like, we were in shock.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:11

Anyway, yeah, that that would, I mean, that that's wild right there. Like you said, through the brisket and just popped the whole deal. Yeah. Hard mouth. My uh I'm I'm sure you know who Danny Burton was. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, we we were up there, actually, we were at a him and my dad were acquaintances, and they were at a a mutual person's place, and he had a little female that he did, and that dog was like, my dad was talking about how hard she bit, but he just didn't have the the wind. And so he he gave her to my dad. He was like, here, you know, take her, take her with you, do whatever, you know. And about eight months later, they went up there, and this was it wasn't a a sanctioned event by no means, but it was an agreement. He was like, Hey, I got her ready if you got something you want to see. And he went back up there and beat Danny with his own dog. But dude, that little that little bitch could bite so hard like you're talking about. She had a bite on her. She was a leg wrecker, though, man. First thing she's gonna do is go in and roll down, lay down on her side almost, and she's gonna grab a front leg and pop one right off the bat. She she would just try to start picking them apart, you know. But she was a pretty good little dog, a 36-pounder. She stayed in the house with us most of the time. John was a good guy, wasn't he? Yeah. He was. Always good to us.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

And uh which I mean He was a sportsman.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:54

Yes. He he loved the dogs. Yes. And and like I said, he was uh that's not the only one that that we wound up with. I say we did, but it was my dad's. All I did was feed him water and take care of them mostly, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, as I got older uh and as time went on, I didn't realize how good a life I had by by growing up around a lot of those guys. Like I said, I got to go to uh and hang out at Mr. Kimsey Woods' place several times. I met Mr. Floyd, uh several other guys that that done it as just a kid, as a teenager, and almost every one of them would give me a pup in some form or fashion, you know. So I was always blessed with having some good stock. And then as I got older, I realized the world is shit, and most of these guys out here are fake and they lie, and they ain't got half of what they say they got.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:54

So it's really a shame what's cup what's happened. It is. Guys like Danny Burton are forgotten about great men like Don Mayfield. Yes, people don't even recognize those guys anymore. They don't even, you know, the only people that appreciate those guys are the people that knew them. But this crowd today, they're ugly, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:24

They're ugly. I won't I wouldn't. Man, I there's no way they're coming out here and getting a dog from me. There's no way.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:35

No. I don't blame you.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

I gotta know who you are before you get a dog from me. I you ain't getting a dog from me unless I talk to you and get to know you. You know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna subject one of my good dogs at anybody.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:53

Just for a few hundred dollars. You know, yeah. To me, that makes uh that makes me feel a lot better to know that there's still some guys like that out there that that vet the people and and make sure that, you know, hey, is this dog gonna go somewhere that uh it's gonna be done right and not just gonna be thrown out in the back and and used to you know to do shit that it shouldn't be used for? Because it's not it's not take, there's no pride in it that I see anymore. You know, they've lost the honor, yes, no respect for themselves or their or their animals, much less.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:32

You know. A pit bull, a good pit bull has honor, and they should be treated with honor. Because nothing, I mean, there's nothing more exciting and wonderful than celebrating a fighter. I just love fighters. I like UFC fighters, I like boxers, I like wrestlers, you jirtu fighters. I like all those people that do that. I mean, I grew up loving a fighter, and that's why I went to Navy SEALs.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:10

Yes, sir. How long were you in the Navy? Oh, I'm sorry. Huh? I was asking how long you were in the Navy. I'm sorry, I cut you off. Ten years. Ten years, I got you.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:20

Yep. Navy SEAL for 10 years. Yep. It was uh a great time.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:28

Throughout you know, I bet you've seen all kinds of stuff and thank you for thank you for your service too. Thank you for your service. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:36

Well, yeah, it was uh it was a time in my life, but I think you know, I really hate what's happening to it now with the way these people treat these dogs. It's it's a it's a disgrace to the dog that they treat the dog so poorly. And uh people act like the pit bulls thing that's wrong. It's not the pit bull that's wrong, it's uh people that have them.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:10

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:13

100% they don't take care of them properly, and they you know, they think they're a wind up toy, and just because they think, oh, he's a fighter, he can fight anytime anywhere. That's not true. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:34

And if he's not at peak performance, it's it's his fault. You know, they they blame it on the dog because something happened and and that dog can't control he can't control what shape he's in or what food he's eating getting.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:47

That's right. He's dependent on the handler and the conditioner to to be taken care of properly. It's just a shame.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:59

I yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:01

I wouldn't touch this game with a 10-foot pole, man. I I ain't got no use for those people, but you know, it's fortunate we got a good dog, and or we got some good dogs, and there's other cool things we can do with them. Yeah, that we don't have to fight them, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:22

The dog hunting world, you know, we we got that, and it's real the hog hunting world has grown so much the past uh 10-15 years for sure, way more than when I first started. And you see a lot of guys that are they're leaning more toward dogs that are out of game game lines. Uh that's right, you know, and because they want that tenacity, they want the dogs that are bred for high performance. And that's right, but they also have to uh have to take into account that those are high performance dogs. You know, so uh you you gotta well it's both ways.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:00

Yeah, they're high performance if you if you treat them that way and get them in shape. Man, I wouldn't dare hunt a dog without getting them in shape first. If I knew I was going hog hunting, I'm getting them on a treadmill for a while. Now, it might not be the same kind of condition that I would do for a keep, you know, for a match. Yes, but still that long distance business would be helpful, you know. Yes, sir. The kind of kind of conditioning that you do on a slapmill or a turntable, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:38

Yeah, good good turntables, hard to beat.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:42

Yeah, I love mine. It I've had it for years. I I build a bunch of those through the years.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:49

Did you ever swim your dogs very much in water? You ever swim them much?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:52

No, no, I don't like swimming them because they get water in their ear. Okay. They get water in their ear. You know, the ear canal on a dog is like a it goes down and then it takes a turn. It goes at a right angle. So if it water gets down below that turn, that the water won't come out of the ear like it does on our ear. I got you. So if you get water in the dog's ear, you can mess him up real bad. All right. So I never and I never thought there was enough resistance in the water.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:28

Yeah, there is there No, go ahead. Go ahead. I I mean I I just I'm listening about the ear thing. I just I know some guys that they, you know, they swam their dogs a lot. And which I my hunt, my hunting dogs, I've swam them, my competition bay dogs, let me rephrase that. I've swam them because they were being swam when I first got them. And like it was it's easy, you know, it's a low impact deal. It's it's easier on their hips, but I've never done it with the game dogs. That and that's what we're talking about in this one is the game dogs. I didn't know how much of a difference that it would be. And now that you're telling me that I got you.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:09

Yeah. I wouldn't want to do it in a keep. Now I don't I'm sure they get in good shape, but I never wanted to risk letting a dog get water down in his ear. It takes a long time to get it out. Sometimes they'll sit there and shake their head and shake their head, and those little ears are going back and forth. It's like, damn.

unknown 1:29:35

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:36

That's uh that's irritating to a dog. And that water gets down there and gets trapped, can uh create all kinds of fungus and uh uh you know ear problems for the dog. So I I never did think it was a good idea for Macintogs.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:55

I don't know about the the end, I don't know about the final result of working a dog in the water for like six or eight weeks to get him in shape for a fight. Uh but you know, they're not gonna be in the water when they're in the box. That's exactly right. They're gonna be on the ground or they're gonna be on a carpet, uh solid ground, you know. Uh and a carpet mill, slap mill, or turntable, solid ground, you know what I mean. It's not the ground, but it is solid, and they can, you know, they run, uh they got a hold of each other, and they're going back and forth on the on the pit floor, you know. But uh swimming, it's so totally different than uh being on a solid surface, you know what I mean. Oh, yes, sir. So I don't know. I I don't know. I I wouldn't say it's bad, but I don't recall ever matching into anybody that shaped their dogs, you know, uh by swimming. I know it started to get kind of popular, and people some people were doing it, but I never I never did think it was a great idea. Mostly because they're they got the wrong, it's the wrong surface. They're not they're on their fours, all fours, in the box, and they're not in the water, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:33

Oh yes, sir. I like I said, it makes a hundred percent sense to me. I've never done it with the with the bulldogs, you know. But I I talked to some guys who have, and they said, you know, that that's what they were like. Well, they use it more as a maintenance deal. And I was like, well, uh, I I don't know. But like I said, for the hunting dogs, now, you know, they have the water races and all that stuff at these events that that some of them go to. Uh, I I mean, and we hunt, we're always in the river bottoms, and there's water and lakes and rivers and ponds we deal with. So I I mean, I guess it's a little different for the hunting dog, you know, the hounds and the curs than it would be for the bulldogs for sure. Right. But I definitely see not seeing it as far as used for getting ready for a match. Yeah, I don't see that.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:24

I guess if you had a swimming pool and it was a small pool and you could really control the dog, I mean, if I was gonna do it, I'd have to, I'd have to learn how to do it. I I wouldn't just jump out there and do it, you know what I mean? I think it'd be something I'd have to uh get used to, find out if the dog liked it or not.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:48

I've seen a setup a guy had, Mr. Parker, and it was uh basically like a I want to say it was about four foot tall and about six foot around, six foot across, and had a bar that came up over the top of it, and he could just clip his dog's collar basically to it, and the dog just sat there and basically treaded water.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:12

And so I don't guess it's really like just what he called it swimming, but I mean it's not like just letting him go to swim. But that that seems like it's just gonna work more the front that than anything to me.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:24

Well, I'm not you, I don't know. It doesn't seem like it would be enough resistance. Yeah. Uh for me, for my liking. Even a splat nail has got a certain amount of resistance, but not not as much as a carpet nail, but it's not.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:42

You know, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:46

No, that's I I just you know if you knew if you learned how to do it and you knew what you're doing, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:06

That uh so if you if you had uh what uh what advice could you give some of these uh these these newcomers to the to the game dog stuff as far as the hunting wise, uh what advice could you give them when they're going to try to find a dog um to to use to to catch hogs or to to run get some type of game with?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:31

Well the first thing I would say is find somebody that's been breeding dogs for a good long while it knows it really knows the American Fitbull Terry. Somebody a reputable breeder, so to speak. That'd be the first thing. And I'd be real careful about buying dogs off the internet, which some of these guys are doing that. I think that's a mistake. You know, they're just trading back and forth off the internet. And uh I don't know, I just don't I don't know if it's a good idea. Especially because you know, they're I don't know. I think the most important thing is find your reputable breeder, somebody that knows what they're doing, that's been breeding dogs for a while, and that has that's known to have good dogs, that's the first thing. And then don't start him too early. You know, if you want hog hunting is one thing, but you know, small game is one of the most fun things you can do with a pit bull. Yes, and you don't risk his life. You're there's no risk. Uh if there is any risk at all, it's not much. You know, mostly getting snake bed or something like that would be the biggest risk. Yep. But I'm man, I've had so much fun in the woods uh hunting squirrels, hunting all kinds of small game, raccoons, squirrels, armadillas. I mean, shoot. I'd I had one we was hunting uh squirrels and it got away from me. And in those days we weren't using collars, you know, UPS collars. Dogs stayed with us, but he got away. I something drew him off. I don't know what did it. We were staying we were on the Chattahoochee River, and there was uh some islands in the middle of the river where when they dammed up the Jim Woodrow dam, there was some high ground on that on that river that never went underwater. And uh it was a great place to hunt. But it was a big old island, you know, real long, maybe two, three miles long. And uh you know, kind of connected to them to the bank by just a shallow water, you know, but it was a full island. But uh he got separated from us and we went back to camp. I was worried to death about it, lost him, you know. We went back and we were on the boat, you know. Yeah, went to camp and ate something, then we went back and looked, couldn't find him. Then the next day we all got out there and started walking and walking and walking. And finally, after about two, three hours early in the morning, we walked and I found a uh I found uh a blood trail, a little bit of blood and some fur, and I thought, what the hell is this? And uh I kept walking a little bit further, and there was a dead coyote. Oh hell. And right and there was a little like a like a rise where the dirt was mounded up and there was a hole like a a den. And when I got up in there, I put my head down in that hole. I thought it might be an alligator hole. I could hear a dog barking in there. And man, he had killed that one coyote and drug him out. He was getting he had gotten back in after he'd kill that coyote, he went back in the den and killed the other one, drug him out. And he was so tired, he ended up killing like three coyotes on it that one that one occasion where he ended up, and I couldn't, I couldn't, he would not leave. He was so worn out, but I had to let him go back in there and finish that last one out. Once he pulled that one out, had it killed. Man, he wouldn't leave, man. He would not leave. So I said, hell with it, let him go. He he went back in there and drug another one out, killed three of them. Damn. I I mean I just never had much more fun than letting me do stuff like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:19

I got to I got to mess with the Patterdales and Yogg Terriers about 20 years ago, and uh we had a lot of fun with them, but I always kept at least I had a little old bitch dog, she was out of some red boy stuff, and uh very, very probably the best dog I've ever owned. But like you said, I could leave her on the ground, let her run. But I'd put her with them little dogs sometimes, and let me tell you, we had so much fun. Groundhogs, coons, possums, armadillas, it didn't matter. If they could catch it, I mean, it was going to, they were gonna have a ball with it. And and they use them more around the house and just, you know, if we went somewhere, I did a lot of guiding, I guided hunts out of some lodges. So we'd always take a couple of little dogs with us. And some of the clients, when we get there, like in the evenings, they'd all have them a mixed drink or something. And hell, we'd just get out and ease around on the foilers or something, let them little dogs, and they'd hell, they'd drag a beaver out of a hole. Um, you didn't know what they was gonna get. And I think them guys had way more fun with the little dogs than they did with all the hog hunting. You know, we we catch in small game.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:31

Small game has always been, and I've hog hunted my share. I never I mean, I matched a lot of dogs, and uh the hogs just I don't know, uh it's good. It you know, once you get into it, like my buddy down there, you know, he's man, he's he's ate up with it. He he hunts, I guess he hunts hogs at least three nights. I mean, he'll work all day and then go home and and hunt all night and get it and won't even lay down and get up and go to work. Oh yeah, yeah, he'll do that three, three, four times a week, every week. Uh he might take a break here and there, but mostly he he probably hunts at least three times a week for hogs. He loves it. But I just never had more fun, even matching dogs, because matching dogs gets very stressful, and it's a very competitor, it's a competitor-driven sport. Whereas small gang hunting with a pit bull, it's not it's just fun, man. There's no stress, it's nothing but just fun. And oh man, it's it there's just nothing like it watching a dog. I used to catch those rabbits in a trap. And I got this place where I live right here. It's about uh I don't know, it's probably about 250 acres, but it's uh peanut field. And uh in the wintertime, you know, they plow it, you know, they they harvest the peanuts, and then once they harvest the peanuts, they they pull the uh disc on it and you know, fluff it up and then they leave it sit all winter. And I used to catch those rabbits in the trap.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:32

I bet there's a bunch of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:34

And uh we catch the rabbit and let the dogs get out in the very middle, 200-acre, maybe 250-acre field, and let the rabbit go and let the dogs go, man, and get the film, get the video on it. Man, you talk about exciting watching them pit bulls chase a rabbit.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:56

Catch them too, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:58

And it's a workout for them, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:00

Yeah, it is, man. They take uh a minute and a half, two minutes sometimes to finally get the rabbit. But uh yeah, it's stuff like that. I I find that the what they call coursing. Yes, sir. Uh coursing, uh, that's a super exciting sport, you know. The greyhounds, they do it out wet uh out in like Kansas in the wintertime for the coyotes. Yep. They run them uh greyhounds.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:29

Greyhounds and staghounds, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:32

I've had a couple of those over the years. They're they're they're diff they're different. Um I I don't know. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:43:39

They're sight, yeah, they're sight catch dogs, but yeah, they I've never I've never run them, but uh all I've ever known is pit bulls. I've never really understood I don't know nothing about greyhounds or even the uh patterdales. I've always been interested in them, but I I never got into them because I figured I know pit bulls, I'd just stick with these because I don't know anything else. I I don't want to try to learn anything else. I just I understand yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:10

We we've got some patterdals. Um we've we've had a certain line, and and I did my research, found, found a good line that I started out with, and I've had the same one for about 18 years. And I'm telling you, what we've had several of them. They they think they're little pit bulls. I mean, they are they are fireballs. I mean they are fireballs.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:33

Uh have you ever bred up a good bred pit bull to water?

SPEAKER_06 1:44:36

Well, sir, I have. And uh I had kind of the the weight the what the weights were up and down. All right. So we had we had two 18-pounders, I had a 26-pounder, I had a 40-pounder. I mean, well, I I bred the male Patterdale to a female bitch dog that I had, female pit bull, and she was 43 pounds. And the male dog was 18, 18 pounds in a few ounces or whatever. So I was hoping to get some like, you know, maybe I could hit the 25 to 30 pound mark and stay there. But it it was just, they were all over the place. And we had two of them that actually lived till they were 16 months old, and I came home and I had uh one of them get out of the top of a kennel out of the roof and grabbed one of the game dogs on the yard, and they sat there, and it was it took me 40 minutes from the time my wife called me. She pulled up, they was already at it. She said, Hey, they're here. I was in at a buddy of mine's house. It took me 40 minutes to get home, and they were still locked up right here in the driveway, and that was the last one that was alive, and I wound up having to put it down. But I'm telling you, they were hard as nails. Hard as nails, buddy. I mean, it was like having them, though those two 18-pounders were phenomenal. It was it's literally was like having a really good game dog in an 18-pound body.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:13

And they were hell on anything that moved. It didn't have to be small game. It didn't, they didn't know it was small, you know what I mean? It doesn't matter, they'll catch a hog or any. Yes, and we caught a lot of hogs with with them for the first, well, I say the first, for about six months there. Uh when they got old enough to go. Most of those terriers there, they seemed to really turn on good at six to eight months. And so we could take them to the woods a little earlier than I would my my bulldogs. You know, my bulldogs always waited until they were a little early a little older, 10 months to a year old, then I'd get them going, you know. Yeah. And uh so it uh definitely they they definitely produced.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:59

No doubt. I've always been interested. I I heard tell of a guy out, I think it was in central Texas. Uh I think he had made a breeding if I'm if I remember right. I didn't I wasn't there, so I didn't see it, but he matched uh Patterdale Pitbull Cross against another pit bull. Wow. And he won the match. I don't doubt it. I really don't. He he won the match. Um there's and uh I don't know, you know, a a straight Patterdale by himself probably have a hard time finding a weight that would yeah, that that would be the problem.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:44

Uh all of ours, usually our bigger ones were around the 20-pound mark. Uh, but most of them averaged about 15. Um they do you still have one? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:57

You want male, you want a male or female? No, I you tell me what tell me what you want. Okay, I see you something.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:05

I wish I had, I wish I was a little younger, I would do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:08

Yeah, it's it's they're they're pretty nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:11

Oh, I'd love to have one, but I just I'm not set up for it. I understand. And uh I'm getting I'm 75. Yes, sir. And I got hurt when I was in the Navy, you know, doing stuff that SEALs do. I got hurt, and uh in my younger years, I was okay. It didn't, you know, I I recovered pretty quick and I was in top shape. And so I managed to get through the best part of my life, but in the last about four or five years it's starting to really tell on me, and my legs aren't they're about, you know, I'm I'm about halfway crippled right now. If I was in better shape, I'd take one right now. I'd love to have one. I I got a little pit bull dog uh girl, uh father-daughter by my chunk mail. Uh she's I guarantee you, she's not over 25 pounds on the chain. She's a tiny little thing. It's the smallest pit bull I ever owned. Wow. I think she's the smallest pit bull I ever saw. I don't think I ever saw a pit bull smaller than her. That's that's small. That's tiny. She's 25 pounds chain weight. If he was to condition her, she'd probably gonna go 21 pounds.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:32

I was to say, yeah, she would, she would be hell, that'd be about like a patterdale. I mean, for real.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:38

Yep. Yeah. I'd love to breed a patterdale to her, see what happened, but I don't know. That uh man, I wish I'd have met you about uh four or five years ago. Yeah. I had a chance. There was one point where I was thinking about making the move. I was talking to Jerry Clemens, the old dog man from Huntsville, Texas. Yes, sir. He was a good friend of mine. He was a good guy, man. He was a real honest man. But uh he had he had he was running some, and I talked to him about it a little bit, and he goes, Well, think about it, and uh you can call me back, whatever you want to do. And I gave it some thought, and I would just sit there thinking, you know, um, I I wasn't running as many pit bulls at that time. I'd let my yard go down a little bit. Yes, sir. And I was probably only running about five bulldogs. I still had my foundation yard, but um I would just say that transition I was thinking about, and I was doing a lot of small gaming in those days. It's probably closer to about eight, ten years ago now. Anyway, um I gave it some thought, and then I thought, you know what. What I don't know enough about them to get started this late in the game. And I do know about bulldogs, so I I think I'm gonna just stay with the bulldogs. Just go with what you know. Not go. Yeah, good that that was what I made up my mind to do. And man, I often wish I could start over again and make that. I would love to make that cross. I can imagine the a pit bull Patterdale cross would make an amazing uh talented small game doll. Because you know, sometimes pit bulls uh they can't get in the holes as good, you know, because the patterdales are so good at going down in the holes.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:47

There was one guy we oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were gonna out of that litter, we sent it to a guy uh about an hour from here, and that dog wound up weighing in at 24 pounds. And that son of a gun, the guy's name was Kyle Tyree. And that son of a gun worked cows with it, and it worked like a cow dog, or he'd catch them, whichever one he told it to. A dog would tree squirrels, and if you knock them out, he'd kill them, or he'd catch them on the ground, kill them. Rabbits, coons, it didn't matter. Hogs, yeah, this dog was one of the most well-rounded dogs that I've ever seen, period. And it wouldn't, you know, he had a good breeding. He started with two good parents, but that man put in the time and effort with him to really bring out what he could be. Yes. And I I'm just like you. I've I haven't found a female. We've got one right now, I think would be a really, really good. I think she would be one to do it with ourselves. Uh, but I've been waiting for over well about 10 years now to do the cross again. And we got a little male out there right now that is a bad little dude. I'm talking about he's a bad little dude, son. He ain't but about 14 pounds, but he thinks he he's got it. There's no doubt.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:13

Yeah. So you're gonna breed him to the pit bull female?

SPEAKER_06 1:53:18

Yeah, that's what I'm I'm really thinking about it. And she's out of a bunch of stuff from from Mr. Woods. That's where she originated. Where yeah, where she originated from, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:28

That uh there was a dog Larry Morris had named Red Lady. We wound up getting Red Lady, my uncle did, and then I had a female out of her, which I let another guy have a puppy years ago, and I wound up getting this dog back. This has a puppy, because I gave him a puppy years ago. Because we were getting out of it, and I was getting rid of all my dogs. We had uh had a lot of heat coming on us. Uh it's time to time to move on, you know. Sure. And so uh we uh wound up having to get rid of them, and that guy held on to these dogs, and and I've I've been in touch with him, been knowing him the whole time, and I got this little female, and she is something, she's pretty special.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:17

She's pretty special. I wish I'd have met you about five, six, eight years ago.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:21

Well, I mean, you know, hey, you just let me know. If I can be of assistance in any form or fashion, you just let me know.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:29

That'd be great. Well, I don't know. I'm actually feeding more. I'm I'm feeding too many dogs right now, really. I understand. I I've got this I've got some of the prettiest little pit bull puppies. You don't even have to feed these. No, I know. You don't want to make I keep putting it. Uh yeah, I yeah, no, it's well, I don't get around as good as I'd like, and you know, uh it just I've just got more pit bulls than I need, really. I'm slowing down. I understand. My I have a hard time with mine though, because my dogs get older. I man, I love every one of them so much. I just can't bear to think that, you know, uh I wouldn't let them get into the wrong hands, you know. The older dogs, I just let them live their life out, you know. That's right. I'm not gonna shoot a dog just because he's not any good to me anymore. But I've got I'm feeding about 20 head of dogs, and there's probably about three or four that aren't doing anything for me anymore, and I can't expect to get much out of them. But I I just can't put them down. I can't. I'm just gonna let their I'm gonna let them live out their life, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:53

I've I really understand. I've got four out there right now, and three of them for sure, they just they're here, and they're gonna stay here. They're not going nowhere. Uh until it's time for them to go home. Then, you know, they I got them a spot waiting, you know. But I I'm like you. I'm scared. I almost send them to some guys, and it's nothing against those guys at all. It's just these are my dogs. Yeah, that's right. These are my dogs. And I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it's what worked for me. And hell, they've they worked for me, and I raised them from the time they were born. Uh-huh. And they're just mine. You know, I don't want nobody else to have them.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:38

That's the way I feel. Yes, sir. I bred the I bred these dogs. I had their mom and daddies for them, and four or five generations back, I still got them, and I just can't bear the thought of just because of not producing anymore that uh just go ahead and get rid of him. I ain't gonna do that. No. They got a place here and they got a spot, they burn their dog food. And uh if it didn't have so many, I might take you up on that, but uh I just got too many.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:19

I got you.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:21

Plus, I'm not I'm not doing any small game hunting anymore myself. I don't get around good enough. Yes, sir. So I really don't a good Patternale would find a rather boring atmosphere because he wouldn't he wouldn't get the challenge that he needs, you know. Yes, yeah. I I know what you mean. Those dogs, they need to be pit bulls and a pattern for that dog, they those tent dogs like that need to be challenged. Yes, they need to have a daily, at least a weekly, every week. They need to know they're going hunting, they're going in the field, they're gonna go get on something. And uh if you're not doing that with them, then you know they're not being used for their best potential.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:10

And they'll they'll find something to get into sooner or later.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:14

Oh yeah, they'll get in trouble.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:16

Mm-hmm. That's what I mean. They'll get they'll find something.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:19

Yep. That's right. They'll get in trouble.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:21

So uh well I tell you, man, it's I Mr. Parker, thank you so much for for taking time out of your day for doing this. I've held you up for two hours now. Uh and your wealth of knowledge, and it's a breath of fresh air to talk to somebody who really knows the the American Pitbull Terrier and has lived the life that you've lived. Like it's uh without a doubt, honestly, this is one of the highlights of of me doing this.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:52

It really is. Well, it was a real honor to be able to do it with you, and uh I appreciate you uh bringing me on and giving me an opportunity to talk.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:04

No, it's it's great.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:05

And uh yeah, if you ever want to do it again, maybe in a few months or a year or so.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:12

Yeah, we'll we'll do it again.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:13

If you're still here, I'd love to do it again.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:15

Yeah, I I definitely we we do it again for sure. Maybe we can get into get into a little something different on the next one, you know, maybe some more stories and stuff like that. People love them. Uh and maybe maybe between now and then uh I might be giving you a call and I'd like to I'd like to you know look at you and talk to you about a pup or something, maybe.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:38

Oh yeah. Well, I can sure help you out there.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:41

All right. That's that's new stuff. Boy, you got my whole ears perked up. I'm telling you now.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:48

If you want to look at it, go to my website, it's bulletproofkennals.com, okay, and uh click on announcements. It's you'll see uh uh male dogs, female dogs, and then the third level, third one on the list is announcements. Click on announcements and go down there. You'll see Ajax, Grand Champion Ajax, and it shows him a picture of him and his pedigree. Okay, and then from uh that scroll down and you see the the sire and the damn of the pups I got, and you see the pedigree of the pups. Zippo and you can and crimson, yep, zippo and crimson, and uh stack that pedigree. You if you go down below, you'll see the pups pedigree.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:48

That's what you can.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:50

Stack that pedigree against the the uh grand champion Ajax pedigree, and you'll see you'll see the truth about how almost exactly dog for dog the same pedigree. Anyway, uh before we finish, I wanted to wanted to say one thing about go ahead. If you go, huh?

SPEAKER_06 2:01:15

No, go ahead, say whatever you want to say.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:17

Yeah, I wanted to mention, if you go in there, I wanted to draw attention to do you remember the dog grand champion or champion Thor? Mm-hmm. Woods champion Thor. Woods Thor, yes. Yeah, it was uh Snooty over the top of Miss Pooh Red. Yep. To make a champion dog named Thor. Bobby Halls.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:41

No. Was it Hall's? Didn't he have a dog named? Who had who had that one?

SPEAKER_05 2:01:46

Oh no, uh Irish Jerry had Pooh Red.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:49

Irish Jerry, okay. I'm sorry. I got you.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:51

Yeah, Irish Jerry had Pooh Hall Red. All right. Yeah, she was, in my opinion, the greatest, greatest female pit bull that ever lived. Okay, my opinion. She didn't get bred very much. They only bred her a few times, but Thor was one of the dogs that came out of her, but uh uh she was the greatest pit bull I ever female, female pit bull. But if you look at that pedigree on pedigree platform, I guess everybody's using a pedigree platform now. Yes, sir. Go type in woods, and it should say something like woods in parentheses brewers br s Woods Brewers Champion Thor. Click on that pedigree and look at the true pedigree, the true breeding on Woods Snooty. You'll see the real that is the true pedigree on Snooty. All right. So anyway, I'm gonna check.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:58

I'm gonna check that out here in just a little bit. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:01

Yeah, anyway, yeah, and on my website, you'll you'll see that stack that pedigree up against the Ajax dog, you'll see what, see how close that pedigree is. I'll do it. I'll do it, buddy. Well, I sure appreciate you letting me uh run my gums here the last uh two hours.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:20

Hey, I love it. I've had a good time, and I like I said, we really appreciate you, and uh I'll be talking with you pretty soon.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:28

I appreciate you. Um, you know what? I didn't even catch your name. Joey. Joey, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:34

Joey right here.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:35

Okay, Joey. Well, I'm gonna download this is your personal cell phone.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:40

This is my personal number, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:41

Okay, okay. I'm gonna download you into my phone and I'll have you. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:48

Sounds good to me, bud.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:49

Okay, Joey. Good talking to you. Have a good night. Take care. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:56

Well, that's a good one there, boys. There's a whole lot of stuff in there that that's history. Uh-huh. And that's part of that's that was part of culture. That was part of uh part of life for many, many years. The matching of dogs uh all the way from way back in the the 15, 1600s, actually before then, but like so. It's one of those things, and the things that we discussed in there are nothing that any of us are doing in this day and time. What Mr. Parker's talking about are things that were sanctioned events when they were legal to do years and years ago, uh-huh and haven't been done since. Just want to make sure that that's clear. Uh-huh. I don't want anybody calling, talking off the wall. You know, and yes, uh, uh we do know a lot about these things because I was I was alive during that time. I'm older and getting older by the day. And so just wanted to throw that out there. He's a wealth of knowledge. We'll have him back on before too long, do another one with him, talk some more stories. And uh y'all let us know what y'all thought about it. And uh, hey, until then, y'all make sure get off your ass and on your feet now just shading in the heat. We'll see y'all.