Can We Eat Sugar AND Be Healthy?

Ela and I were wondering about our topic for this week and a recent episode of Dragon's Den got us thinking about sugar, continuous glucose monitors and the absolute fear we have around "processed sugar".

On Dragon's den, the dragons were tasting a new type of oat energy ball and each of them tasted it, agreed how delicious it was and immediately said that because it tasted so good, that meant it must be bad for you.  Steven and Deborah both declined to invest on the premise that the sugar content was too high.

So, we thought- let's talk about sugar and do some myth busting around sugar being part of a healthy diet, sugar cravings, keto diets, different types of sugar and why demonise ANY food is damaging to our health.

We also talked about habituation, which means facing our fear foods by giving ourselves full permission to eat that food, and what emotions that brings up for many of us.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.  

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: Hi!

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Ela Law: Hello? You okay?

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Christine Chessman: How are we doing? Yes, how are you?

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Ela Law: I'm okay. I'm out of my cast. I'm in a splint, so I'm feeling very optimistic today.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, so for anybody listening and not watching, Ella broke her wrist quite badly when she was skiing, but not actually skiing.

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Ela Law: Don't say that! I was on a black slope and I got tackled, that's what we agreed on, that's the story, right?

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Christine Chessman: So, okay. Okay.

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Ela Law: But, you know.

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Christine Chessman: I'm glad you're feeling better, I'm really glad. Yes. We were thinking, what should we talk about today to you lovely people? And, I mean, there's so much we could talk about. There's so much. You know, just had the Oscars last night, so obviously.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: We could talk about all of that. But, we'll leave that to another week. Very excited about Michael B. Jordan winning the Oscar, rather than Timothy.

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Ela Law: Well deserved. Have you seen the film?

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Christine Chessman: I haven't, is it good?

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Ela Law: Oh my god, it's bizarre, but so good. It's such a… such a cool story. It's really, really.

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Christine Chessman: I mean, he's… he is fantastic, isn't he?

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Ela Law: Yeah. He plays twins. Just him.

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Christine Chessman: Wow.

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Ela Law: It's, yeah, it's just… it's amazing. Yeah, it's a really good film. It's scary.

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Ela Law: Well…

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Ela Law: It's meant to be scary. It's got vampires, so, you know, if you're scared of vampires, yes, it's a hell of a scary, but if you don't, then it's… it's cool. It's tense.

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Ela Law: And intent.

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Christine Chessman: Okay. That's good.

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Christine Chessman: There you go.

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Ela Law: Watch Sinners, everybody!

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Christine Chessman: Reviews on the…

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Ela Law: Or we could do another podcast on film reviews, or on TV program reviews, because that's what I've been doing for the last 4 weeks. I've just been watching telly, because I can't do much with my hand.

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Christine Chessman: And do you know what? There's so much on TV, there's almost too much. It's like a decision fatigue nightmare for anybody with, like, any neurodivergence of any kind.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But let's talk about other stuff, more related to the.

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Ela Law: To our podcast. Good idea.

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Christine Chessman: So, we were thinking about food. Talking of TV, I watched Dragon's Den last night. I quite like a bit of Dragonstone. I'm not that fussed on Steven, because he's very anti-sugar. And there was one, there was another entrepreneur that came on who was Northern Irish.

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Christine Chessman: And she was trying to sell these amazing oat-to-go things, like, instead of protein bowls, having, like, an energy bowl that's made with oat, so that that energy actually is not… it lasts a bit longer, so I know if I have a bowl of porridge, it fills me up for a bit longer. I have a bit more energy, rather than, like, a bowl of Rice Krispies or…

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Coca pops or anything like that, so… and she was making great points, she was kind of talking through the nutrition side of it, and… but then… and they taste-tested these amazing little bowls, and they were all like, wow, those are the best things I have ever tasted, but maybe they're too good.

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Christine Chessman: They might be just too good. This… and then they started looking at the sugar, and then they got really worried about the sugar, which actually wasn't very high, it was probably low to medium. But,

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Christine Chessman: And the fact that they went, oh, that tastes really good, which… and then they said, all of them, oh, that means it's probably really bad.

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Ela Law: Hmm…

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Christine Chessman: What the crap is happening? Honestly, so they assumed, because it tasted nice, they wouldn't be allowed it.

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Christine Chessman: They don't have permission to have it, and they didn't want to invest, because obviously that means it's bad.

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Christine Chessman: And people right now are not wanting that. Now that, that, to me, that's really quite sad.

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Christine Chessman: And this is a product, and you as a nutritionist, you know, I'm obviously in the exercise game.

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Christine Chessman: But, you know, talk to me about why we're all so terrified of sugar at the minute, Ella, and why it's actually not going to be as harmful to us as everybody on the internet seems to be telling us.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I feel really sad for this entrepreneur who's actually produced a really cool product that tastes good, and it… I mean, I don't know, that's, like, a completely perfect example of where the narrative is now, isn't it, that episode?

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Ela Law: is like, oh my god, that tastes good, oh no, we can't eat that because it's got too much sugar. And I'm really sad that, you know, even the dragons are a bit like, oh no, we can't invest in it, because no one will buy it, because everyone is so anti-sugar. I mean, you know, there's so much…

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Ela Law: wrong information out there, with sugar being addictive, sugar being toxic, you know, sugar leading to inflammation, all of that nonsense. With…

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Ela Law: no scientific basis to it, but it's just become so ingrained in people's heads that, oh, you must not eat sugar, because it's bad for you, that we kind of lost track of the actual science, right? It's…

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Ela Law: Yeah, it makes me sad, because, you know, that's the kind of narrative that our children grow up with, and therefore sort of learn to be scared of certain foods, which is absolutely unnecessary.

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Christine Chessman: So, basically, what you're saying is that we can have, sugar as part of our diet without any problem. Yeah. Obviously, unless… Absolutely. Obviously, if you're a diabetic or a pre-diabetic, you've got to maybe track the amount of sugar you're having, or track what you… how you respond to sugar. Would that be a better way of saying it?

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, I don't like the term pre-diabetic, because in theory, we're all pre-diabetic.

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Ela Law: But I just think that what.

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Christine Chessman: I know, what is… is that a recent development?

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Ela Law: Yeah, I think.

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Christine Chessman: Everywhere, everywhere.

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Christine Chessman: So many of my friends are like, oh, I'm pre-diabetic.

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Ela Law: Yeah. It just means that your glucose is a bit higher than normal, and I'm using air quotes for normal, because again, you know, there's…

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Ela Law: Variations amongst people, but anyway, so it means that you might want to keep an eye on it, and there is more of a risk that you become diabetic if that trend is…

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Ela Law: continues, if that makes sense. So I would say, if you are diabetic, or if you, are struggling with higher blood sugar, then

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Ela Law: you don't have to not eat… you don't have to completely cut out sugar from your diet at all, but you may just want to be a little bit more careful and sort of keep an eye on how your body actually responds to it, because again, that is very different in different people. But generally, if your blood sugar levels are high, you may want to eat sugar, with other things that stop that glucose spike.

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Ela Law: or you might want to cut down a little bit on it, but yeah, I mean, that's an individual kind of recommendation that I'm not qualified to give here on a podcast, but generally, for the general population, sugar

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Ela Law: In and of itself is not harmful.

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Ela Law: Full stop.

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Christine Chessman: But it's… and it's also, how does your body use sugar if you ingest it? How does it break down sugar? Like, if I ate coconut sugar, or if I ate organic Manuka honey versus…

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Christine Chessman: granulated sugar, out of the back. What… does your… does your body go, oh my goodness, we can't have this sugar, but this one's okay?

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Christine Chessman: Or does it break it down?

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Ela Law: Your body… your body doesn't give a shit where that sugar comes from, to be honest. You just… it does the same thing. There's no sugar sugar, whether it's honey, whether it's syrup, whether it's from a… you spooner out of a packet, it doesn't really matter. It's the simplest…

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Ela Law: form of energy your body can get, because your body doesn't have to work on it to break it down. It's literally like, oh, thank you so much, this is easy to use, and I'm just gonna convert that straight away into glucose. So, you know, there's…

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Ela Law: th-th-people, people…

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Ela Law: I feel like if they're eating honey, or, you know, a garlic syrup, or all those kind of things, they're doing something good, and they're being healthier, but at the end of the day, in terms of how your body responds to that food, it is pretty much the same.

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Ela Law: There may be a tiny difference, but not enough to make it a food, worth replacing with something else.

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Christine Chessman: And, you know, there's a lot of information about these, you know, blood sugar spikes, and you've got to avoid, you know, the glucose.

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Ela Law: Oh, the glucose got in!

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Ela Law: Oh.

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Christine Chessman: But surely that's common, and that's just part of our biology and our physiology, that's just what happens.

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Ela Law: Exactly, you eat something…

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Christine Chessman: Huge, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Exactly! Exactly that. Your glucose spikes after eating, and it goes back down after you've been… it's been digested. It's just normal. And, these, these,

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Ela Law: CGMs, these continuous glucose monitors, they put the fear into people, because they think, oh my god, there's something wrong with what I'm eating, because I've got all these spikes, but it's a normal bodily response to eating food.

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Christine Chessman: Those are the worst kind of trackers I can imagine.

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Ela Law: No, I know.

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Christine Chessman: Because people are not… are people being educated as into what is a common What's…

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Ela Law: Well, I don't know, actually.

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Ela Law: Yeah. I don't know, I…

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Christine Chessman: I suppose it's…

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Ela Law: That's it from.

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Christine Chessman: But we, you know, we have spoken before about ketosis, and how actually your body is in survival mode rather than thriving when you're in ketosis, and it can… your body's very adaptable, but it doesn't want to survive on ketones, and it… so that's kind of when you do no sugar, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Well, it's very difficult, actually.

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Christine Chessman: Or is it…

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Ela Law: get into a stage of ketosis, because you…

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Ela Law: Basically, when your body starts eating itself, it's.

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Christine Chessman: Using…

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Ela Law: It's using things that, are not energy foods, like, you know, your carbohydrates. So you have to be really strict with not eating any carbs, to get into that pure state of ketosis. You know, the keto diet is…

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Ela Law: It's a bit, sort of, depending on how strictly you follow it, kind of leads towards that, but it's not… it's not a good thing, because your… your body.

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Christine Chessman: No!

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Ela Law: itself.

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Ela Law: I don't want to do that!

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Christine Chessman: And so I think what… we're demonizing sugar, because in the 90s, we demonized fat, didn't we? And then we demonized carbs in the 2010s.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: No, it's sugar, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Because.

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Christine Chessman: All of the low-fat products in the 90s and the 80s were full of sugar. Absolutely full of sugar.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But it was all about the fat, so we felt if we eat too much fat, that's gonna make us fat. And then we thought, oh no, it's now sugar that is the demon, the enemy.

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Christine Chessman: And, obviously, carbs and sugar have a relationship, but it was… do you know, I mean…

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Christine Chessman: And I think it is a trend, isn't it? That it kind of jumps from one thing to the other, and we're not really… we're just… it's misinformation across the board, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Yeah, I'd say so. I think it's just… we need… it's all marketing, isn't it? A lot of the stuff that is being sold to you has got some… someone wants to sell you something, basically, and that's where all of this stuff comes from. You know, we're bored with one trend, we need another trend. We need to make some money. So, I think it's one of those…

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Ela Law: really frustrating things where we… we're looking for a new scapegoat, or we're looking for the next diet trend, we're looking for the next, yeah, the next new thing that we can… we can jump on and, and practice.

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Ela Law: For anyone on YouTube, I was just talking to a wolf for a minute.

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Christine Chessman: Cat issues. We have… we don't have a cat flap, and our cat is a bit…

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Ela Law: Does she want to go out?

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Christine Chessman: Not the brightest, let's face it, and

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, she just gets a bit lost and on roofs, and… That kind of stuff, so…

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Ela Law: Bless her. Don't we all, when we're trapped in the house?

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Christine Chessman: Don't know. But yes, so, what were you saying when I was away? Sorry, lovely people.

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Ela Law: Yeah, just that, I think we've… it's… it's… a lot of it has to do with marketing, and that we just need a new trend when we get bored with one, we want something new. And we… I think because we don't have all the answers, especially in nutrition, nutrition is a reasonably young science still, and we really don't know an awful lot, and I feel like…

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Ela Law: because we don't know an awful lot, we come up with all of these theories, that maybe sound interesting and sound plausible, and maybe even sound logical to a certain extent, but I feel like there's a lot of theories out there being marketed as the truth.

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Ela Law: when there is absolutely no evidence for them. And that's where we get into this nutribolox stuff, where, you know, people say sugar is toxic, sugar is addictive. If we move away from sugar, we can go into all of these,

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Ela Law: these supplements, or we can go into, oh, you must not eat this, or these are the 5 foods that you should avoid at all costs. It's nonsense, because it's taken out of context. All of it is taken out of context. You know, sugar can lead to addictive kind of behaviors, but the problem is that it's not…

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Ela Law: it gets translated, mistranslated, into sugar is addictive. The kind of behaviors that you display basically are because you're restricting. You're either restricting food full stop, or you're restricting sugar, in particular. And that's when you have these…

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Ela Law: these behaviors that feel maybe a bit urgent, a bit, like, you're overeating on it, you're eating more than you want, or that kind of stuff. And, you know, when you look at the studies that are behind this sugar is addictive message, they're usually rat studies, and if you deprive a rat of food, and then you offer a group of rats

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Ela Law: free access to Sugar Pellet.

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Christine Chessman: the ones that are the most easy energy, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Go straight for that, because they feel like…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: That's exactly that. So, I think what we really need to realize is that all of these messages are taken out of context, and they're… they're… they're…

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Ela Law: Basing the claims on what sounds logical.

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Ela Law: But without actually having any evidence for it.

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Ela Law: Does that make sense?

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Christine Chessman: But it is, I mean, it's quite a serious thing that we're now all obsessed with sugar spikes, and we're terrified of sugar and any food that might taste good.

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Ela Law: Yeah, no.

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Christine Chessman: you know, we don't want to actually put sugar in our bodies, and you know, you find yourself. It bleeds into your own, you know, if I really wanted, like, a latte with some vanilla in it, which is very sweet. And then I went, hmm, maybe I shouldn't do that.

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Christine Chessman: Lots of sugar, and I really had to go, Christine, you really want that? Looks delicious.

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Christine Chessman: of it! Do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: I know.

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Christine Chessman: You've got to talk to yourself around these things, and we're not… we're not sitting here going, eat all the sugar in the whole world. No. As intuitive eating counsellors.

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Christine Chessman: We kind of subscribe to gentle nutrition, which is, once you've actually given yourself permission to eat.

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Christine Chessman: you can start looking at what foods are nutrient-dense and what will serve you in your diet, what will make sure you get all the nutrients you need, but also feed that satisfaction and taste. You have to be able to feel satisfied with the food that you're eating, enjoy the food that you're eating. That's a huge part of it.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I.

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Ela Law: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's… it's… this is… but this is the thing that we kind of overlook, because it's… I think the focus is too much on nutrition and, you know, maxing it and getting the most out of what we eat, because there are…

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Ela Law: I mean, I suppose when we restrict, we are quite limited as to the amount of food we get, so on top of that, we are then overly focused on the nutritional benefit of that food, so satisfaction and pleasure and joy is completely out of the window, isn't it? And I think that's…

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Ela Law: very sad, like your story with the Dragon's Den person, where they said, oh, this tastes amazing, best thing ever, and then, oh, no, we can't have it because it's too much sugar. So Joy got canceled.

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Ela Law: You know, the enjoyment of that product got complete… it was not relevant to whether this would get investment or not.

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Ela Law: And I feel like that's how a lot of people eat these days, is like, I really want that, but I'm not having it. Like you with your coffee, I really want that vanilla syrup in my latte, but there will be probably 9 out of 10 people who'd say, no, I'm not having… I'm not allowing myself to have that joy.

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Ela Law: with the coffee, I'd rather have it bitter, because I'm worried about

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Ela Law: That extra sugar in my diet, which is really sad.

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Christine Chessman: And, you know, the sad thing is, you can get vanilla-free syrup, or sugar-free vanilla syrup, and it's horrible.

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Ela Law: Yeah, tastes good.

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Christine Chessman: It's horrible. It's horrible.

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Ela Law: A lot of foods. A lot of foods now. Yeah, yeah, so many foods have gotten out. As you said earlier, you know, all the fat-free stuff had loads of sugar in it. Now the fat-free stuff has lots of sweeteners in it, so it has literally nothing left in it that's enjoyable.

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Christine Chessman: I also like…

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Ela Law: It carries flavor, and sugar is flavorsome, and these sweeteners just… I don't know, they just don't do it, do they? They don't.

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Christine Chessman: No, I really don't. And, you know, British Bake Off, I'm saying British Bake Off in case we have any, US listeners, but it is full of cake.

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Christine Chessman: And a joy! If it was full of, like, low-fat friggin'…

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Christine Chessman: you know, carb-free, like, low sugar. No, nobody would want to watch it, because it's… No. It's just… it's a…

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Christine Chessman: not… I mean, that's that word, decadence, but it's the indulgent feeling around it. You really want it, it's like that sumptuous, it's just gorgeous, you know, that lovely chocolate, and it's just smooth, and the textures, it's… if it was all low-fat, low carb, low sugar, it would just… nobody would watch it. It would be…

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Ela Law: Oh, I forgot.

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Christine Chessman: crop.

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Ela Law: Yeah, everyone would want to order it, but no one would want to watch it, because… and there would be lots of soggy bottoms for anyone who's watched.

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Christine Chessman: Jackie Votsam.

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Ela Law: Yeah, because the cake just won't like.

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Christine Chessman: So, baking! Baking!

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Christine Chessman: is, you know, I imagine fresh scones from the oven with… I mean, I just remember going to visit friends when I was a little child, and in Scotland, and the mum baked fresh scones with homemade raspberry jam with all the.

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Christine Chessman: Oh my goodness, and put, like, butter under… I have never tasted something so delicious straight from the oven. And that would be something that you would…

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Christine Chessman: deprive yourself of, because you're like, oh no, I can't have sugar and kiss my blood sugar spikes.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I find it really sad.

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Ela Law: No, it is very sad, it really is. I mean, just to go back to…

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Ela Law: to that gentle nutrition, which is the final principle of the intuitive eating principles, and it is there for a reason. As you said, there's… once you've given yourself permission to eat, once you've found the way of, you know, eating when you're hungry, and knowing your fullness signals, and all of the other principles of intuitive eating, gentle nutrition comes in right at the end, because it's…

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Ela Law: It's… Very, very easy to… Go back to strict rules around food and what you can and can't eat.

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Ela Law: But when you do all of the work around, you know, giving yourself permission to enjoy all foods.

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Ela Law: You are more likely to understand what your body

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Ela Law: likes, what your body enjoys, what you enjoy, what your body needs as well. You understand cravings, you understand, hunger signals a lot better, and then gentle nutrition just means that nothing is out of bounds, but certain foods just feel better in your body, just by.

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Christine Chessman: Better.

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Ela Law: certain amounts of food feel better in your body, and then you can eat all of that food without judgment, and I think that's the key, isn't it? It's that lack of…

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Ela Law: judging yourself for eating something, and actually focusing on how much you enjoy it, and, you know. And you will, honestly, you will not only enjoy cake.

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Ela Law: And that's… I think that's what people are really worried about when it comes to gentle nutrition. They think, oh, I'll just eat all of the donuts, and all of the cakes, and all of the chocolate, everything that, you know… If that is your worry, you need to go back, because you haven't given yourself proper permission to eat.

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Christine Chessman: I have a sort of a question as well, so for anybody listening who doesn't really know intuitive eating, there's something called habituation.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: Which is, if you have a food that you're kind of worried that you're gonna…

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Christine Chessman: go mad on, and not be able to stop eating. It's kind of having it in the house, and rather than never having it in the house, it's having.

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Christine Chessman: and understanding you can have it at any time, and it's almost like, because you don't have that… you don't need to eat it all now. You know when you get in the thing, I'll just eat it so it's not going to be in the house anymore, and then I never have to…

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Christine Chessman: if it's in the house, you can have it when you want, and you know that you don't need to eat a huge piece, because then you can go back tomorrow and have some more. You can also have a huge piece, if you're in the mood for a huge piece. But I do… is there any foods that you have any issues with? Because I wanted to use an example for people, because… and see if you can talk me through this, Ella, as a…

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Ela Law: No.

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Christine Chessman: Intuitive eating person.

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Ela Law: Oh, you are an intuitive eating person. I loved how you'd explained that, and I love that print… that sort of technique of habituation, and it's worked literally every single time I've done it with a client. They were astounded.

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Ela Law: But you might lay yourself in for the… the ride.

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Christine Chessman: So I'm… obviously, there's some missing… little missing link, because I… I'm really good with most… like, everything can be in the house, it's not a problem for me. Brinies that you bought me, that's all good. They're, you know, I'll have a bit every day, and I love them.

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Christine Chessman: But I have an issue with peanut butter and almond butter, and any, basically any nut butter, yeah. And I end up throwing them away, because

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Christine Chessman: The thing is, I really crave it, and I know I'm a lighter, and that's not my problem, but my tummy doesn't like it, so I end up having digestive issues.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: But, and so… so I'll go… at the weekends, I'll go, oh, I'll just get a little pot, and I'll just have some…

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Christine Chessman: Because I love… it gives me… especially if I've done an activity or exercise, I'll come home and I'll want some almond butter and just a little bit on my granola, lovely.

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Christine Chessman: But I can't… it's not… it just doesn't work for me.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I think that.

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Christine Chessman: It's an interesting… it's just one of those… Sorry.

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Ela Law: Go ahead. Sorry, I'm interning.

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Christine Chessman: I also want to have a massive helping of it, so that's probably why it's not… my tummy doesn't… it doesn't work for me, because it doesn't feel good in my tummy.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: And I know that, but I keep doing it. So it's like…

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Christine Chessman: I think this is something I just need to sit down with myself and…

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Ela Law: Is that what I was trying to think?

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Christine Chessman: For example.

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Ela Law: Yeah, is there part of you that feels like, oh, it's… it's butter, it's… it's not some… it's not a good food for me? Is there… is there a little part of you that still thinks of it as something that you shouldn't be eating too much of?

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. I don't know. And that's something that… that's why I was trying to… I…

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Ela Law: You know.

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Christine Chessman: You were talking about habituation, and

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Christine Chessman: At what point in your journey do you start habituation? Do you need to have given yourself full permission?

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Christine Chessman: And then start, or do you… do you know what I mean? And I know Evelyn Triplet, who's the OG, the creator of Intuitive eating, along with Elise, Rash, I know that she says, do them in any order, they don't have to be in order, the principles, but…

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean?

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Christine Chessman: Should you start introducing those foods back in?

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Ela Law: That's a really good question.

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Christine Chessman: You know, And you're…

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: I would completely agree with, like, you can just do any kind of principle in whatever order, really, in theory. But I would say, in terms of habituation.

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Ela Law: You need to be in a place where food isn't…

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Ela Law: overwhelmingly scary anymore, because I wouldn't ever suggest this to someone who's come fresh out of an eating disorder, who has got loads of anxiety around food and eating, who has a really, really tricky relationship with food and eating, so I wouldn't suggest it to

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Ela Law: to do that habituation exercise then. It's a really good one when you feel a little bit more established in your intuitive eating, journey, and you feel a little bit more, safe and less anxious.

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Ela Law: And I would…

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Ela Law: I would say that, yeah, I would say for you, with the nut butters, I'd explore that a little bit, and sit with it, but also, you have full permission to eat it.

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Ela Law: And it doesn't mean that your body enjoys it very much, because if it gives you digestive discomfort… I had this kind of thing with one of my very first clients, actually. She was giving herself permission to eat dairy foods again, because she really loved them. And cheese in particular was a bit of a fear food, so we got to a place where, you know, she could

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Ela Law: have that again. But she says, actually, Ella, it doesn't agree with me. My stomach goes nuts when I eat dairy. And I said, okay, well.

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Ela Law: Think of it as… You have permission to eat it, and you don't have to eat it.

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Ela Law: Right? You don't have to eat it only because you have permission to eat it. I hope that makes.

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Christine Chessman: And this, I think, that is key, because there's a bit of me that goes, I know this is a really, calorific, fatty food that I love, and I'm wanting… I'm giving myself permission to have it, but every time I have it.

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Ela Law: So what.

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Christine Chessman: I could… and I feel I should be giving myself permission, and here we go with the shoulds, and…

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Christine Chessman: Getting into that kind of weird grind that you think you should be having this food because it's…

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Christine Chessman: Calorific and, you know… But you don't need to. You can… you can choose something else.

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Ela Law: Yeah, you can choose something else that your body feels happier with, that doesn't give you the runs or whatever it does, and I think…

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Ela Law: also, you know, when you crave something that is quite calorific, maybe you just need to eat more. You need to eat more food of something else.

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Christine Chessman: And, yeah.

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Ela Law: It's a trial and error kind of thing.

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely, and it is what is behind the craving.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, and it is… and I do think you're gonna come up against stuff like this.

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Christine Chessman: once you start, kind of, introducing foods back in that you haven't eaten previously. But it is… it's definitely worth the effort, because there's so many foods now that I eat without any

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean? I joyously eat that I used to be absolutely terrified to eat. You know, even in the last few years, so that, you know, since…

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Christine Chessman: we started, sort of, working together, and since I became an intuitive eating counsellor, I've introduced so many more foods back in that I was always scared to eat. And it turns out there's nothing to be afraid of.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: There's nothing to be afraid of, and that's… you know, it's kind of when you eat them, you go, oh.

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Christine Chessman: Nothing happened, I'm still here, I'm still okay, I'm still…

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: Yeah, can I ask you a question about that?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: when you take foods out of your diet, because you think, oh, actually, you know, they're delicious, but I can't have them because they're too… too calorific, or, you know, they're bad for me, whatever narrative you want to use around them, and then they come back into your life, and they're just a normal… you can have them any time. Is there a sense of…

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Ela Law: deflation, because, oh, now this thing that I had put on a pedestal, that was this thing that, you know, was unreachable, is now in my life. Is there a sense of, huh, okay, that's a bit… okay.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, and that's interesting, because I know that habituation also comes… often comes with people going, didn't really like it that much anyway, it wasn't that amazing, it wasn't…

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Christine Chessman: I love it, oh.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: love it.

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Ela Law: Oh, that's nice. That's nice to hear.

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Christine Chessman: chocolate coming… I… there's not a day that I don't have chocolate, I'm a very

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Christine Chessman: chocolate person. And then bagels, things like bagels. I'll never get tired of eating bagels. Never.

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Ela Law: I love a bagel.

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Christine Chessman: Toasted bagels with… this is the thing, it hasn't… it's never got to a point of…

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Christine Chessman: oh, it's just boring, but I don't feel an urge to eat.

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Christine Chessman: Loween.

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Ela Law: Loads of them.

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Christine Chessman: I know I can hover.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: It doesn't… it has that feeling of, like, oh, I can't wait to have it.

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Ela Law: Yep.

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Ela Law: You allow yourself to have it when you want it, rather than, you know, this is the special food that I can only have on the third of…

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Ela Law: March, or whatever, right?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, what about… what about you? When you… when you started intuitive eating, were you… was there anything you were cutting out? Was there anything that you weren't eating?

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Ela Law: Probably not at that stage. I think a while back, I probably would have been off that, if I don't have it in the house, I won't eat it kind of mentality, which I…

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Ela Law: changed, and I've fought hard in our household, because my husband's a bit more like, oh, well, if we haven't got it, I won't eat it, kind of thing. And logic… this is, again, this goes back to, yeah, certain things are very logical. Of course you're not going to eat it when it's not in the house. However, it's not helping your relationship with that particular food if you ban it from existence, right? So, I don't think I have anything that I wouldn't have

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Ela Law: in the house.

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Ela Law: And I can really tell how I go through phases of wanting a particular thing. Like, I go through phases where I just want to have crisps every lunchtime, and then I go through phases where I'm like, yeah, no, don't fancy that right now.

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Christine Chessman: Don't need them.

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Ela Law: No, I don't need them, or I go through phases where I like a particular kind of chocolate, or biscuits, or some… and then, you know, today is a day where you could give me a whole tray of biscuits, I'd be like.

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Ela Law: Yeah, but if you give me a bowl of Chris, I'd be like, alright, I'm having some of those. So it really depends, and I don't know if that… I haven't checked why that is, but I… because I allow that to be in the house, I have access to it if I want to.

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Christine Chessman: So this is interesting, because a lot of people, I think, who have… who don't have eating disorders, or disordered eating in their minds anyway, have food rules.

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Christine Chessman: have food rules. So they… you know, like Dan Harris, when he was interviewed, or when he interviewed Evelyn Triplet, he didn't have dessert, or he didn't have…

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Christine Chessman: Any sweet stuff in the house, that he wouldn't eat it, but he just thought he was being good and being healthy.

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Christine Chessman: Didn't think there was anything wrong with that, or that he had any kind of issues with… around food. But his relationship with food was obviously struggling.

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Christine Chessman: I mean, it wasn't a healthy relationship with food.

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Ela Law: No, no. I did, I… this is something I stole blatantly from somebody else, but, it was a quote that said,

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Ela Law: there is no food unhealthier than an unhealthy relationship with food, and I love that, because there isn't. Again, it's just when you take things out of context. So if you have a… have a meal and then you have a dessert.

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Ela Law: there's nothing… there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing right with it. It is just what it is, really, to be honest.

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Ela Law: But if you deny yourself desserts on the grounds of, oh, I'm being good, I'm being healthy, that then has an effect on your relationship with food, because you feel worried about something. For some people, that's where it stays. For some people, it can tip over into food anxiety, or even an eating disorder, like orthorexia, or into anorexia.

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Ela Law: Exactly. So, I think it's… We have to be aware of that.

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Ela Law: happening for a lot of people, and I feel like…

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Ela Law: This is where gentle nutrition is the real…

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Ela Law: opposite to all of this nutrition advice that we're getting on social media in particular, that isn't actually

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Ela Law: sound, evidence-based advice that is based on spurious kind of studies, or not even that, just, like, what makes sense. And I feel like this idea of no desserts… I don't know if you remember, when I've started in nutrition.

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Ela Law: I was actually working in public health nutrition, and I was working with schools, and there was this massive Jamie Oliver campaign for school dinners to be healthier. And there were so many people who said.

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Ela Law: Why do we even have desserts? We don't need… why? We don't need to have desserts.

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Ela Law: And…

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law: Yeah, strictly speaking, we don't need desserts

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Ela Law: if we have enough for our main meal. But if you look at schools, and the kind of food that children eat, and the amount of food that children eat, there's a huge number of children who don't have breakfast, who have very small.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: lunches. For them, a dessert will give them energy, will give them something that they're looking forward to, something enjoyable. You can add nutrition into those desserts to give them those nutrients that they need. So, you can't just blanket saying, oh, I don't need desserts, desserts are bad.

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Christine Chessman: Demonising any food is dangerous, especially to the younger generation who are coming up right now, seeing all of us messed up around food.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And, you know, I… let's not talk about Joe Wicks and his killer protein bar, because…

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Christine Chessman: you know, it's just demonizing food is not good. It is just not helpful, it is not… it's damaging. It's really damaging. Yeah. And I think, as you say, any food can be healthy as part of that.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: overall, you know, diet. I don't like using the word diet, but I'm using it.

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Ela Law: In a different way.

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Christine Chessman: Yes.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Ela Law: I think this is one of the biggest problems with nutrition advice, is that the advice that is going to serve you the best is really boring, it's not sexy, it's not exciting, it is just eat a bit of everything, make sure you listen to your body, don't demonize any foods, make sure you get, you know, a lot of fruits and vegetables, carbohydrates, protein.

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Ela Law: fiber, drink… Plenty of, of, liquid.

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Ela Law: And you're fine. I mean…

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Christine Chessman: You can't sell books and.

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Ela Law: products with that message, can you? It's boring.

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Christine Chessman: But, you know, and this sounds incredibly… I don't mean to sound so privileged, but when you've been on holiday in France, or if you've been on holiday anywhere.

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Christine Chessman: And you end up eating loads of cheese and bread, which is kind of what I eat in France. There's just lots of bread.

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Ela Law: It's rude not to…

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Christine Chessman: When you come home, you just want salads. Like, to be honest, any time I went to Northern Ireland, the girls have never eaten a vegetable in Northern Ireland, and that's not to say that there aren't loads of vegetables, but every time we've gone out to a cafe, there's no vegetables!

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Christine Chessman: I don't know what, but they just associate Northern Ireland with no vegetables. No vegetables. So every time they come back.

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Christine Chessman: to England, they just load up on vegetables, because they're just done with…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. That kind of beige food, and it is… this is your body's awareness, and this is what we are shutting down with our constant dieting and our GLP-1s and our.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: just being hungry and pushing through, or having a coffee, or having your Diet Coke. You're not actually listening to the signals your body is giving you.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: You know what I mean? And obviously, that's not always easy when you're from an eating disorder background, if you've got a lot of food noise in your head. And that's why we do the podcast, just to basically

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Christine Chessman: help anybody, or just offer resources, or assign post people who are really struggling, because it is really hard.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I've got all of that food noise constantly, but the main thing is about feeling. So I think we'll end on that, because intuitive eating, it's about

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Christine Chessman: feeling it. How do you feel when you eat this? You know, what feels good in your body? What…

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Christine Chessman: You know what I mean?

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Christine Chessman: checking in with yourself. Am I full? Am I still hungry? Could I eat some more? Do I fancy that?

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean? It's a very different thing than what the messages that we're being sold at the minute, which is, like, food is the enemy, do everything you can not to be hungry, not to eat, just… do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think it is… it's about… it's a learning process, isn't it, to learn… to understand how your body feels with food and certain

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Ela Law: particular foods, etc. It does take time. It's not an overnight thing, and you have to really actively go and shut out all of those messages that you hear. I think if something sounds like it's too good to be true, or it's too simple to…

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Ela Law: ignore, then it probably… you need to ignore it, and it is too good to be true, because the… the people that talk with the most conviction about certain dietary advice, certain foods that you should or shouldn't be eating, the ones that are really, really convinced that they know

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Ela Law: They're the ones to avoid.

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Ela Law: they're the ones to stay clear of. That's your Tim Spectors, that's your glucose Goddesses, that's those kind of people who… who talk like they have invented it, and they have invented it, but it's all bollocks, basically. So you need to be really careful,

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Ela Law: That you don't fall down that rabbit hole of, you know, misinformation, and get yourself worked up about eating a brownie.

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Christine Chessman: And, you know, if you need a book to read, Dr. Joshua Woolrich, wrote, Food is Not Medicine, and he's a doctor, and he's also… I've got a Master's in Nutrition, he knows what he's talking about, and he is

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Christine Chessman: bullshit, gives you it as it is, and I love that. Exactly.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah. That is a good book. The other good book, and we can link to it in the show notes, is, Is Butter a Carb? It's really good.

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Christine Chessman: That's sweet.

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Ela Law: It's by, Rosie Saund and Helen West.

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Ela Law: It's a, it's a real kind of… No nonsense Nutrition book.

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Ela Law: It's… that's… I really like that, it's very accessible.

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Christine Chessman: But basically, keep on going, and fight this friggin'…

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Christine Chessman: Fight the good, you know, but come with us, because at the minute, the cultural shift towards extreme thinness and just demonizing all foods is scary, and it's hard to resist when you're in the world that we're in, so please just keep listening to the podcast, keep surrounding yourself.

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Christine Chessman: Especially on social media with people who are not preaching.

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Christine Chessman: They, you know, avoid all foods. Go just, just really…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, just be kind to yourselves, because it's hard at the minute.

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Ela Law: It really is, yep. And if you have any questions about any of that, you can always get in touch with us. We're here.

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Christine Chessman: Please do. Lots of love, everybody, thanks for listening, and we'll chat to you next week!

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Ela Law: Bye!