Unattainable Podcast Show
Are the things most people perceive as unattainable in life, truly unattainable in reality?
Unattainable Podcast Show
If Commitment Is A Choice, What Makes It True? Ft. Destiny - Ep.174
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Special thanks to Destiny for being a part of this episode of Unattainable Podcast Show
We talk timelines, boundaries, and the emotional math of love, from first-date sparks to long-term safety. Destiny shares hard lessons from a toxic college relationship, why moving in first is non-negotiable, and how honesty outperforms vibes.
• early hopes for marriage and kids meet adult responsibility
• dating in LA and San Diego as trade-offs with peace and routine
• living together before engagement as a core rule
• toxic relationship patterns, stalking, and recovery
• standards for respect, second chances, and quick exits
• monogamy vs openness, intention vs action, clear lines
• dopamine, intimacy, and safety across relationship stages
• flirting, validation, jealousy, and control debated
• submission, leadership, and shared decision-making
• nightlife lessons on honesty, boundaries, and trust
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Welcome, Guest Intro, First Impressions
SPEAKER_01You just be like I wanted to be married and have kids very young. The older I got, I think I just realized how much responsibility it actually takes to want to be a parent in relationships is it's a choice to love someone, it's a choice to work hard every day, to want to make it work. This is actually one of my rules now. I will never get married with someone unless I move in with them. He slept on the couch and he had a number of a girl written on his forearm. I value more what the people that I value most think of me. Emotions are natural, so you couldn't control what your argument to the openness is that's a natural human instinct. We both decided we're gonna be monogamous. Why am I controlling you to be monogamous? You made a choice to be monogamous. We wouldn't have to really deal with a lot of toxic relationships because people would just go or where they're happy and be who they are. Is that you have to work? You cheat, don't you?
SPEAKER_08Welcome to Unattainable. Glad to have you with us. I'm your host, Zach Evans, here with my co-host Mohammed Molay. And today we got a special guest on the show for you guys. This is Destiny.
SPEAKER_01Hi, everyone.
SPEAKER_08Destiny, why
Early Dreams vs Adult Realities
SPEAKER_08don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience, your name, what you do, and your star sign.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Hi everyone. My name is Destiny Brecki. I am a bottle girl. I am a model a little bit, and also I am a professional wrestler. And my star sign is Aquarius.
SPEAKER_08Aquarius, interesting. I did not expect that.
SPEAKER_01What did you expect?
SPEAKER_08Um, Aquarius are very fun, but uh I seem boring. A little bit dangerous, a little bit dangerous. No, a little bit bad for my mental health, yeah. Not you, just all the other Aquarius.
SPEAKER_01I don't like this Aquarius slander. We're great. We're the best.
SPEAKER_08Hey, I don't judge. I used to be very toxic back in my uh villain era.
SPEAKER_01What's your sign?
SPEAKER_08Uh what do you think?
SPEAKER_01Gemini.
SPEAKER_08Okay, first of all, how dare you? Gemini?
SPEAKER_01I like Geminis, but the thing is, you guys kind of like, eh.
SPEAKER_08Like it's like, yeah. I do have that. So I was like thinking. I'm technically a Pisces, but but identify as a Leo, so please refer to me one of my pronouns, which is uh Leo and Aries. Pis Pisces are they're such crybabies, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Well, my best friend's a Pisces, so I kind of like to Yeah, it's different for people. It's kind of funny though, because like I feel like she's like she is a crybaby, but she's kind of like a crash out. I kind of can be at two times too. So like we used to work together, and there'd be times where her and I would be having a moment where we'd get overstimulated. We realized we had to just finally tell each other, like, I'm overstimulated, don't talk to me right now. She would talk, and all of a sudden, I mean, I don't think it's a crybaby. She'd just be like emotional. She'd just get like, and then she finally was just like, just leave me alone, sister.
SPEAKER_08Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And then I was like, okay, I get it.
SPEAKER_08Interesting, interesting.
SPEAKER_01But you know, she rolls with the punches.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't like the slander of Pisces either. But I do hear the guys are toxic.
SPEAKER_08I will not confirm or deny that statement, but uh here's the thing back in the day, I was always a professional fuck boy. You know what I mean? I was in one of these Gen Z amateurs running around with a little Timu earring.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you had the earring?
SPEAKER_08No, I didn't. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I would always tell girls and be honest and say, hey, I don't want anything serious. And then three months later, they would always get mad that I'm seeing other girls. And I'm like, I'm not even gaslighting you. I'm like, you're gaslighting yourself. You know, yeah. Um, but I have a I have an interesting aquarius story. I'll tell you in a second. But um first, let me get your take on on this. I think you'll have an interesting one. So, dating in California, you're from San Diego, but I think there's some similarities to LA, or maybe you've experienced LA. Is uh people say it's like playing the video game on hard mode because you're dealing with narcissists, sociopaths, fake people, celebrities, sugar daddies. It's like you're navigating this very like complex world. What is your experience like been dating in San Diego and LA?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it hasn't been great. I kind of just haven't really been dating lately, so I feel like I'm gonna be speaking more for my younger self.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm in my later 20s now, so I feel like now, I honestly for the past I haven't had a boyfriend since 2019, and I really like I go on dates, but not like very often. So like I don't know. I just I've I'm not really attracted to it. For me, I guess it I I don't feel like I have a horrible experience. I just don't really have the there's nothing that's giving me the spark or the push to want to like, oh, I'm excited. I want to go on a date, I want to meet someone new. I'm kind of really content with being around my family and my friends right now. So I kind of feel like whoever does come in there, they're kind of competing with myself and my piece and like the routine that I have like created. I'm already a busy person too. So it's kind of like what I am giving, I almost feel like I'm wasting my time sometimes going on a date. Cause it's like I could have been either working or the free time that I do have, I could have been spending more time with like, you know, my grandparents who are older, or like my friends who are like we all are working really hard and you know, we're grinding and we don't get to see each other often. So I feel like it's just not worth it.
SPEAKER_08That's interesting. Cause that's six years or so. So was it was it you kind of dated a lot and you got bored and you're like, hey, I actually have more fun just doing my own shit, or
Dating In LA And San Diego
SPEAKER_08was it more of you were dating and you're like, oh, all these guys just aren't it? And you just couldn't find anybody that was really good for you.
SPEAKER_01So when I first I feel like started like wanting like dating and like I was definitely more like a relationship girl. I wanted to be I wanted to be married and have kids very young when I was growing up. Like 16, I was like, pretty much by the time I'm 25, I should be have my degree, have a business, like be married, have like my my kids, maybe two or three, and be just you know, ready and content, or maybe like just having one and starting that. And the older I got, I think I just realized how much responsibility it actually takes to one to be a parent and how much responsibility and effort it takes on both ends to put in a relationship that I was like, and then I was such a hopeless romantic and very naive, very like, oh my god, we're gonna be just this magical fairy princess. And when I kept kind of realizing like the reality of that's just not realistic, or maybe it could be, but it just wasn't happening for me. I was just like, I don't I don't really like it. This kind of ghetto. You want someone to sweep you off your feet, and I guess, yeah, but I also realized like sometimes that is a little dumb. So it's like I would I I realize so I'm an only child and grandchild, and I grew I I do have um half siblings, but I didn't grow up with them.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So for me, it's just like I'm I'm probably a difficult person either. I mean, too. And I also like things my way, I'm sure. And so I kind of feel like if I I feel like if I can't tolerate being around them, or I don't feel like I have my best friend, or I don't feel like it's I want to be served of many hats for whoever I'm with as well. So I'd hope I could feel like that's my best friend. I want to be around them all the time. I would hope that like I don't know, if I something happens, like again, if when my family passes away, I'm gonna be by myself. So I'd hope whoever their family is, they also love me and want to take me in, and that they would be there when that time unfortunately comes. And I just don't really feel like a lot of people value that kind of connection that's on a different level right now. And now at the same time, like I also do want to be attracted to them, and a lot of attractive guys, they're not really, you know, they're not really all that.
SPEAKER_08So yeah, I I think one one of the big because I'm similar. I'm so I'm 34, single, and I feel the same way you do, where I'm like, hey, my life is like pretty fucking great as is. Like I've good friends, I like I mean, I have girls I'm seeing, I guess, but and I'm working on my shit.
SPEAKER_01But exactly, that side's taken care of, you're good.
SPEAKER_08I can just fuck it. I'm gonna go to Europe for a week and just do it. And then there's no like, oh, well, why are you going? Why didn't you tell me? Well, yeah, you gotta take care of the kids.
SPEAKER_01You're always so busy, yeah, and like you don't have time for me. Yeah, I'm trying to get this bread.
SPEAKER_08The other thing I wonder is how many people out there don't get married because they feel like this is the perfect person for me and this is gonna be make my life better. Like, how many people get married because they're just dating somebody, and then the time comes, maybe they graduate college, or maybe they graduate high school, or maybe they're like getting older and they're like, Well, this is just what you do. It's like it's time to get married now. You know what I mean? And then they're in these like relationships that I'm like, I don't know if y'all are happy in this.
SPEAKER_01I've noticed that a lot too, and then that's what kind of actually started making me like also, I felt like I was not getting like that, but I felt like it was I realized I was doing it to almost check off a list, like a checklist thing, instead of like, is this something I actually really want to do? Is this something that I'd want? And I mean, I do maybe, but I feel like it'd be with the right person. Like, I don't want to feel exactly like that, like, oh, I need to have kids and I need to get married. And I think that's something actually my family loves about me is like I'm not gonna do it unless I feel like this is bread and butter and the best thing ever. Like, I want to feel, I want to hype my partner up. I want to be like, that is my person. Yeah, yeah. Be jealous, like, yeah, be jealous. Like, look, they're the best person ever. And if I feel like I can't do that, I don't know, I just feel like I'm wasting my time.
SPEAKER_08The other thing is, this is what makes me nervous. So, like, you know, now I have a lot of friends who are married, family, stuff like that. And whenever I ask, like, my guy friends, like, oh, are you, you know, why did you marry this person? How'd you know it's the right one? Blah, blah, blah. It's like it's like they always give an answer that it feels like Chat GBT made up. Like, it's always just like, Zach, when you know, you
Contentment, Career, And Delaying Relationships
SPEAKER_08know. Or like, Zach, when I look into her eyes, I just know she's the one. And it just feels like they're saying it because they know they're supposed to say that. It doesn't feel like they're like, oh, this is actually why I just like am so in love with my my wife. You know what I mean? I think it's just because you never experienced it. Yeah, because honestly, I've seen moments where I could tell there's a couple where they said that, and like some people I do think they're bullshitting, but like there's other people where I could I could genuinely tell, like, just the way their actions are being around them often, you could just tell they look at them like that's how I want to look at someone like I agree, but I just think most married couples that I meet, they don't seem like that. It seems like it's like, ah, you guys are like cohabiting together. You probably like had some kind of spark at one point, and now I'm just like, I don't know, it feels boring to me. It's like, what are you gonna do? Like, now you're playing board games with the other married couple. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's true, but I also feel like a lot of people, that's another thing that makes me really hesitant to want to get in a relationship. Is people a reality that I realize is in relationships is it's a choice to love someone, it's a choice to work hard every day to want to make it work. Um, I've not like I don't want to name name people, but I've just seen older couples that I've that I see as like aunties or uncles, you know, gone through a lot of tribulations, whether it be infidelities, um, just stuff, turmoil since I was a little kid, because my mom was a single mom and had me kind of young. So I got to see a lot of her friends or family friends kind of go through their problems and grow up. And I just felt like a lot of the people that I, even if it's maybe not something I'd want exactly, but I do really respect their relationships or marriages, is they they put the work in both parties. They were willing to choose, they've gone through hard stuff, but even through that hard stuff, they kept choosing each other and they knew that they wanted to be with each other. And both parties, even the men and the women, were like making the work. And if some person, I don't know, was filling their cup was low, the other person filled it up, and then vice versa. So I just feel like that's another thing that a lot of people aren't they're thinking about. They're not, or even if they are choosing to stay, they're choosing to stay and just live in the motion of it and not actually like find that passion again or find why they even chose each other from the first place.
SPEAKER_08Have you heard of Sternberg's triangular theory of love?
SPEAKER_01I think a little bit, but I don't really know. Could you remind me?
SPEAKER_08So, this is, in my opinion, the most comprehensive psychological model of love out there. Like people say Ainsworth, but it's like, all right, you're only gonna use attachment styles that describe love completely. Like, it just doesn't make sense to me. So the theory is there's three the emotion that we feel is love is really three uh chemicals going off in our brain. And the third one is the one that fucks everybody up. So the first one is dopamine. So that's the the butterflies, the excitements, like all the fun parts of a relationship. Then the second type is um serotonin, which is the feeling of connection, the feeling of emotional intimacy that you have with a person. Now the third type is vasopressin. And vasopressin is the feeling of almost like safety. Like almost like when everything, you know, shit is hitting the fan and you're stressed out and you're freaking out, and there's that one person that you can just fall into their arms, and then instantly it's like everything feels safe and everything's gonna be okay and you're comfortable. Now the problem is vasopressin is the opposite of dopamine. So when you get in a relationship with somebody, when you get past the dopamine phase and it gets into the safety phase, most people feel that and they mistake stability for the feeling of falling out of love or the lack of passion. When really stability is the next phase of the relationship, that's the vasopressant phase of the relationship. And so we've confused like inconsistency with passion, and we've confused stability with boredom. And that's why everybody runs from one relationship to the other one.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense. I feel like we see a lot of that too. Or I feel like even recently with some stuff, like you'll see people start families or something, and then you know, they get scared or they get married, and then they cheat on their partner or something, and then they realize dang, like I messed up something really good. I do I can see that happening.
Responsibility, Marriage Timelines, And Standards
SPEAKER_01I mean, actually, I've I've seen um some family friends as well have infidelities of that happening. Luckily, they were able to like make it all come back together, but I do feel sometimes, like you said, the routine definitely gets people to think that things are boring, and sometimes boring's good.
SPEAKER_08Do you feel like working in bottle service has it at all um made you a little bit jaded about relationships because of the things you've seen?
SPEAKER_01I've always had a lot of guy friends, so not really. I did open to my eyes about how more, I guess, scummy some people are. Because I would be scummy, like just like grimy, like I do like, and it's not even just the guys, even some other girls. Like, I feel like it's nightlife definitely has some stereotypes that were proven true for me. Um, but honestly, having a lot of guy friends, they've always and even male figures in my life, I feel like they've always put me on game and kind of just told me the reality of certain things that I don't know, it didn't really jade it too jade my thoughts too much because we already kind of know how to do it. Yeah, I kind of knew, and that was pretty obvious. Like, even going into it, my guy friends they all work security, and they were like telling me, sis, don't do this, don't hang out with this person, that guy does this, don't do that. Or they'll see something and they'll look at me, don't do it.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. All right, what about your relationships before, you know, back when you were dating? Um what was your most toxic relationship?
SPEAKER_01Oh god, yeah. So that one's an easy answer. Uh I was in college. Um, I was 18 and he was 24. Yeah. And um I thought we were gonna get married, we were looking at rings, we moved in together. Like he was cute. I thought it was just wow, this is awesome, a great guy. Like, he even like talked about marriage with my grandparents, with my grandpa when he met him, and was like, my grandpa was just like, you know, you just have to wait till after she graduates, though, to do all that stuff. Like, no babies, no marriage. Maybe you could get engaged, but that's it. And then three months or not even a month, or maybe three months of moving in together, I just saw a whole different side of him. Like, whoo, it was just I've just never, it was just a whole I this is actually one of my rules now. I will never get married with someone unless I move in with them. I have I have to move. And honestly, I would if I ever have kids, I'm gonna advise them. I also advise all my friends, live with someone first. That I'm I hate that I learned that so young, but I'm glad I did because I was such a naive, like, oh my god, I'm a gullible person that I really love that I learned that. Like, I like he started stalking me after I had to um make him think I lived at another person's house every day after school. Like I kept after we broke up, like it was bad. It was like my mom had to come up. It it was really bad. I wanted to transfer schools, it was it just got really, really bad.
SPEAKER_03It was what was he doing during the time you guys were living together?
SPEAKER_01Um let's see. He was very like emotionally or abusive. Like he would kind of just say things like, Oh, you're kind of getting a little like he didn't like the attention I would get from other guys or just anything, even since nightlife. Excuse me? No, I wasn't working nightlife. I was in college. We were in college. Oh, okay. So I was just a normal college student. I was wearing sweats most of the time.
SPEAKER_05How did you know you were getting attention from other guys?
SPEAKER_01Um just I think he would just hear like talk, and then he would kind of just like get a little upset, or you know, kind of don't really wear that, or he would start like wanting to look through my phone and just weird stuff. And then he would kind of be like, you know, you're kind of getting a little big. You know, like, you know, you should take um because he was on um some juice. So he was like, I have these like weight loss pills that you could take, like you're getting a little big. And I'm like, he's like, you know what? It could, you know, it could help out a little bit. And so I'm like, oh, okay. So I tried it out. I was young, I was a little I was stupid, and I actually used to have bigger boobs, and then it made me completely sh go from a double D to a C cup, and so I stopped because I was like, whoa. I was like, I thought it was gonna make me look lose fat. He's like, it does in the most fat area. I'm like, oh, well that's uh my boobs, and then um he would just like he would always come home drunk, or he would just kind of be flirting with girls, and then he worked at a restaurant nearby, so I'd go and visit him at the job, and like if people came up to me, he didn't really like it, and he wouldn't get mad at them, he would get mad at me, even though I was very like, No, that I have a man, like blah blah blah. He'd just kind of get mad that they were still coming up to me and talking to me, period. But then I would kind of see other girls flirt with him, and he he could do like he was just like, I'm just be nice, I'm working, you know? I'm a I'm a waiter. And then once we actually um broke up, we were still living together at the time. And um he came, he actually broke up with me. He he would like to do these games where he would act like, Oh, I don't really want to be with you, and then like come back. And he knew that would like string me along. I was super young and like fully in love with him. So he'd like break up with me, not say I did something, then oh come back. And then so this one particular night we ended things. He he came home drunk super past the time he'd have to usually come home from work. He had a he slept on the couch and he had a number of a girl written on his forearm on his forearm.
SPEAKER_09He didn't even try to hide it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, technically we're broken up, but at the same time, I just think it's like we just broke up, I think, that night.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I was I'm not gonna lie, I was crazy back then. So I was like, I go in the living room, I see that. Hello? Yeah. He lives with me. Yeah, he wanted to work out. Like he he just came back saying he wanted to work things out too. Um what's going on? Like what so what happened? Like who who how do you get your number? Can you tell me like what happened? Like it's not your fault. You didn't know. And then he woke up and we're he's chasing me around the couch. Like we're running. And I'm like, no, like I'm dodging. I go in the room, lock the door, have the conversation. And then um he's getting
Moving In First: A Hard Rule
SPEAKER_01drunk, or he's already drunk and like super drunk, like to the point where he's like cross-eyed, like he gets in my face, and I just like I'm on top of the couch and I look at him, I'm like, Do you really want to do this right now? I'm like, you have a bad knee. I'm like, you're drunk. And I'm pretty strong. I was like, I'm pretty strong. I was like, and I'm close enough to the kitchen and to my phone. I have a phone. Like, you want to do this right now? And and so, like, I'm calling my mom too. I get in the room, I call my mom, he calls my mom because they were they had a good relationship. And she just said, My daughter doesn't get mad like that. What did you do? What did you do? And she and he was just like, No, and she's like, No, tell me what you did. And then so then she got on the phone with me, and I'm telling her what happened. And she's like, So it was warranted. Like, why are you getting in her face? Why are you doing the X, Y, and Z? She's like mediating everything, and then finally she um, so we get off the phone, all that happened. We go to bed, figure stuff out. My mom and my grandpa, they fly up to um my school and help me move out. Like, I just need to find a place really quick. Like, they after that situation, they were just like, it's not safe for me to be in there. Stuff like that's gonna keep happening. He keeps coming home drunk, we're getting in arguments, we're getting each other's faces. Um, and it was just crazy. So then after that, we moved out, and I that's when I started having to like uh I'd have to figure out, oh, like, where am I gonna make him think I lived at? Actually, I lived right by him, but he didn't know that at all. And then um a lot of so he used to play football. A lot of the ex-football players would also like come back and tell me, like, you know, he's talking crap about you. He's saying you're crazy, he's saying you're this, he's he's like, he's trying to make sure that no one talks to you. He's trying to make sure like everyone thinks, like, doesn't want to be with you or doesn't try getting at you again. But actually, even one of the guys said he's like, he kind of was like my friend, and he went, he finally questioned him. He's like, if she's so crazy and she's this bad person, then why are you still trying to get back with her?
SPEAKER_08Actions speak louder than words.
SPEAKER_01He's like, if if she's this bad, why why do you still go after her? Why are you following her? And he was just like, I don't do that, I don't want her. Well, and he's like, No, I saw. He's like, You do. So, and that was, I think, a lot to take in at 18. It was a very toxic relationship. Even it was like four, like I think a couple years later, even after I moved away and was in San Diego again, um,
Toxic College Relationship And Stalking
SPEAKER_01I would see that he would have fake pages and try to find me.
SPEAKER_07That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01One time he even messaged me, Oh, I didn't even tell you guys the craziest part. So, right before he moved out and went back home when he graduated, he made me, my mom actually just found it. We went through the storage. He was after years, I already had a boyfriend after call, like after him in college, when I got to my senior or junior year, I had a boyfriend after him, and he would harass him as well. He made these books about like Kinko's. He went to Kinko's and printed out pictures like of us together and then his new life, and with words next to it. He made like binded books, three of them. One of, I think it was like, was it like life before destiny, life during destiny, and then life after destiny, and then wrote this letter. I can't believe I missed that part. And my mom, like, my mom's my best friend, like we grew up together, so she was just like, No, Effie, way. She's like, you need she's like, you need to send me a picture right now. She's like, no way, no way, no way. And she was like, we're reading it, we're going through it. My mom and my best friend were looking at it, and we're just like, this is madness. He had to go to CVS, either tell the CVS person, or he was just on the thing and print it out. Like these were multiple pages and three books of it.
SPEAKER_08Crazy. That's so cringe.
SPEAKER_01It was like, it was actually pretty scary. Like, we try to get the cops involved, and they told me, Well, until he does something to you, we can't do anything.
SPEAKER_08I mean, it's not illegal to print out a book.
SPEAKER_01No, but like he'd be following me and harassing me. Or he would try to fight like if my if we were all at the same party with my um new boyfriend at the time, he would try to fight him, or he would try to do something to him. It was just, it was oh my god, it was so weird.
SPEAKER_07That's wild.
SPEAKER_01At the time I try to take out of your memory.
SPEAKER_05Interesting. Crazy stuff. You how old were you again at that point?
SPEAKER_01I was 18.
SPEAKER_05You were 18, and then when you guys ended the relationship? I was wait, when you were saying graduate, you meant from high school? College. Oh, from from college. Okay. So you were 18.
SPEAKER_01He was 24 and he was 18. I mean, I was 18 and he was 24.
SPEAKER_05Oh, and then when did it end?
SPEAKER_01When I was, I think I might have been about to turn 20.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so it was just like a couple years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was just like, that's what I'm saying. That would even creep me out more, is like it was barely a year, like over a year.
SPEAKER_05And then and then so after that you had other relationships?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I had a boyfriend, like I think maybe a year or a couple months after. I had a boy, a new boyfriend, and he would still harass him and I.
SPEAKER_05And then so that was that your longest relationship, the one that all the drama was about, or did you have a long-term relationship after that too?
SPEAKER_01Um, I feel like my longest-term relationship was two years, so not really.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So that was your longest relationship the one after him. The one after him was okay got it. And so you said 2019 is the last time you started you had a relationship. And um and okay, so it's been now what six years since you've been in a relationship. Uh how old are you? 28. 28. Okay. Okay, so so you were okay, so then you were only in two relationships before you stopped being in any other relationship.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_05You're 28. So that was six years ago. So you would have been 22. So you were only two relationships from 18 to 22, no? One was from 18 to 20, and then the other one was 20 to 20.
SPEAKER_01Then no way, I probably I did get the age wrong. It was just one year, then with the crazy one.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01Sorry. Got it. Because on 2019, that's when I ended. It was just a couple months. I did have a boyfriend. No, so I had three. Sorry. From that time frame, I had three boyfriends since then.
SPEAKER_05And so your last relationship, then what happened with your last relationship?
SPEAKER_01Um, I just he was so he's really nice. Like, we're still friends. I just felt like sometimes he would argue about really stupid things like all the time. Just like and it'd be really like just stupid. Like one time, like the fan was hitting me or the heater, and I'm like, oh, like I need the heater, it's really cold. And he's like, Oh, it'll hit you better if you do it this way. And I'm like, I don't feel it anymore. Actually, I'm gonna move it back. No, it feels better this way. And I'm like, Are you are you really arguing to me about uh-huh? If the heater could feel if I could feel the heater, and I was like, I kind of just I grabbed myself and I was like, I can't do this anymore.
SPEAKER_08Like, but it also sounds like maybe you weren't that into him.
SPEAKER_01At first I was, but the thing is those would be multiple times throughout the day.
SPEAKER_08So it's just kind of like it sounds like you weren't even that bad. You're just like ah, here we go again.
SPEAKER_01Like it kind of was, and and my friends at first, they actually thought I was being kind of mean until they saw it for themselves. Like we went out for my birthday, and it was just like he um kind of just got angry out of nowhere and was just like kind of picking a fight with me. And and my my homegirl went, Oh my god, you weren't kidding. I thought you were I thought you were being a bitch the whole time. And she's like, Oh my god, why is he mad? She's like, she even went to try to go like talk to see if it's something I did, and she's like, he gave me attitude too.
SPEAKER_05Crazy. So, so okay, so what is I don't know if you said this well, what is the reason you you stopped wanting relationships?
SPEAKER_01I just feel like there's not like a I just don't have a want for it, to be honest right now. Like I feel like the times that I have gone on dates here and there, they're just I don't feel like I'm gonna have a friend. I don't feel like I'm gonna have support. I don't feel like it's gonna go the long mile sometimes. And also, um I just I'm just kind of just tired of it. Like sometimes like you like they're not honest, or they'll sell you a dream and act one way and then turn a whole different leaf. And it's kind of like just be honest about it. Just if that's how you are, or you just wanted to do something more casual, or if you are looking for marriage, that's cool. Or even currently, I've kind of been a little bit more opposed to having marriage and kids just because I feel like it's a really big responsibility. I'm so open to it, but I want to find the right partner. And lately I've actually been feeling like a lot of guys that I've talked to, I feel like they're telling me stuff about marriage and kids, not because they want it, but because they think that's what a woman would want to hear. Especially a woman like sometimes will be a little younger than me, or they'll be around my age. And because I'm 28, they think, oh, she's getting to 30, like she wants to have marriage and kids, and it's kind of like I'm in no rush. I'm literally down, like whatever, whatever happens, happens. I'm cool with it. And I feel like they're trying to say things to like, oh my god, we could totally like I could see us, you know, having these kids and doing this, and I'm like, would you actually want to do that though? Like, are you gonna actually want to be an active father? Would you actually want to be an active husband? Like, I feel like a lot of people um want to be a wife and a husband or want one, but they don't necessarily want to be one.
SPEAKER_05They don't want the response responsibility, they want somebody else to take on the responsibility, is what you're saying. What's the oldest that you've dated?
SPEAKER_0136. And I was 24.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Um, what's the oldest you would date?
SPEAKER_0136.
SPEAKER_04Right now? Why is that?
SPEAKER_01Um I will say I'm a little immature. Like I am more of like a younger um spirit that I just feel like I kind of probably would be wasting someone's time who's I'm open to it, but I just feel like probably someone older would be having more of a would think my life is a little too hectic and a little too sometimes a party girl. And you know, um, I am always on the go. And so I feel like also that's not fair for someone right now, too. I feel like also the way my life is set up is just it wouldn't be fair to that's another thing. I wouldn't want to date someone because I don't really have a lifestyle where I could date somebody. I'm always on the go, I'm always working that I just don't really feel I could be that great of a partner
Healing, Boundaries, And Self-Protection
SPEAKER_01right now.
SPEAKER_05Sure, sure. I mean the good thing is you're self-aware, so that you know that helps sort of picking out and not wasting somebody's time. Um and so the the at what point do you think that you would want to settle down? Or is that desire not even that's where I don't know.
SPEAKER_01And that's what I kind of been actually dealing and thinking about lately is is this actually something I am I coming to a point where I'm like maybe I actually don't want everything that I thought I did, like the marriage and the kids. Sure. But I also kind of feel open that maybe I'm a little like naive and thinking this, but I kind of am hoping for that moment of like maybe someone will capture my eyes, sweep me off my feet, and or maybe I will, you know, organically meet someone, become friends with them, and just realize wow, we really get on, and like I would actually like to spend a life with you.
SPEAKER_05What's your biggest red flag in you, not in other people? Meaning if I talk to one of your friends and I said what's her biggest red flag, what do they say?
SPEAKER_01I know my mom tells me out on them all the time. Just can't think right now.
SPEAKER_04Well, everybody has them.
SPEAKER_05I suppose it's uh sometimes uh I guess people around us, you point them out like your your mom does, and then sometimes people just find it out about themselves.
SPEAKER_01I could be annoying, I'll I'll say that.
SPEAKER_04Like wanting to move the heater. Exactly.
SPEAKER_08Like annoying in like an endearing kind of way. Like annoying in the way like when you're playing video games and your little sister like comes in the room and bops you on the head with a page. Kinda, yeah.
SPEAKER_01A lot of my coworkers, even at the club, will like kind of be like, you're sometimes you get annoying, but like we still love you. Yeah. Or they're like, or I'm just like sometimes I can be a little too loud. I'm I have a very loud like voice. When I laugh, it's sometimes my mom has always said when you were in the playground and I couldn't figure out where you were, I just had a hear. And I'd be able to hear your screech. Um I think one red flag I think I could say I would have that's a little bigger is sometimes I am really quick to just leave. Like if I do see a red flag in someone, or if I do feel disrespected, or if I do feel like you did something really wrong, um, I will leave. And I kind of am not someone that gives second chances. And my mom has even told me, she's like, you know, sometimes when people she's like, I'm not she's like, I'm really proud of you that you you have boundaries and you're really quick to like, no, don't do that. You're no nonsense. And even my grandpa agrees, but they both kind of say, you know, sometimes people make mistakes, yeah. And also maybe like some of the mistakes aren't as big as I think they are, and maybe I could just maybe just communicate, yeah, or if take some time and then go back, don't like completely dead that relationship, yeah. Even just in like friendships as well. They just said sometimes I'm really quick to just buy, like, I'm I'm not gonna let you hurt me again.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, which makes sense. It so okay. Do you believe in do you believe in monogamy or open relationships?
SPEAKER_01For myself, I believe in monogam monogamy. I can't say the word monogamy, but um, I do feel like if it works for you, it works for you. I just feel like you should be honest. Sure.
SPEAKER_03But but for but you don't you wouldn't want an open relationship, is what you're saying. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01What's the reason? I'm just not built for that. When I really like somebody, I really like it.
SPEAKER_04You're possessive and jealous.
SPEAKER_01Um no, I would say I'm territorial because the thing is what someone does What's the difference between possessive and territorial? I I feel like territorial is I'm I am I'm protecting what's mine. If I'm mine, the thing is if that if that say like I'm dating you, if a girl comes and flirts with you, I feel like it's your job to take care of shoeing her away as it's my job to shoe away whatever guy comes. I'm not gonna worry about that unless I see you interacting with her and like you're enjoying it. That's where I feel like it gets disrespectful. But I feel like go ahead. I have a lot of guy friends. You could have girlfriends, but it's just if things get if you're gonna get rude and bold in front of me and you're gonna also like it, then I'm gonna have a problem.
SPEAKER_05But when you're at the club, you're being flirted with. Yeah.
Red Flags, Second Chances, And Self-Awareness
SPEAKER_01Occasionally. Honestly, I feel like I have more of a bro. Occasionally. No, I'm being real. I feel like I've built enough regulars. Our club is um one of the only brown and black clubs in San Diego. There's not many. So we do have a lot of regulars, and I feel like I've kind of like, yeah, some of the newbies that come in, they'll flirt here and there. But I feel like I'm pretty good, even though I'm still single, just like, oh hi, like keeping more of a bro aspect of it.
SPEAKER_07They all know you already. Yeah, you're kind of one of the team, you know.
SPEAKER_01And I actually do feel like some of them, they'll even like hit me up for other stuff, like, hey, like we have like a uh we need someone to model, or hey, we have a runway thing, like they'll hook me up into businesses and vice versa. So I I do feel like I've, you know, it depends on how you move around.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Should women submit to their man while they're in a relationship? Your face.
SPEAKER_01Um maybe in marriage.
SPEAKER_05In marriage, but not before.
SPEAKER_01I think to an extent.
SPEAKER_05And explain your thought process.
SPEAKER_01Well, what what do you mean by like submit?
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean by submit.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean well, what do you like? I feel like sometimes actually hearing different people perspective of what they feel someone should do when they're submitting, like what would you like to do?
SPEAKER_05Well, what what is your perspective of of submission? When it comes to because because you said I mean you answered the question, which was which was when you're married. So what does that look like? What is the what is the how how is that how is that different from while in a relationship versus a marriage? What what does that submission look like exactly?
SPEAKER_01I guess you actually do have a point with that. Shouldn't be that much different. So you got me there. But I do feel like I would for me, submission is like letting I would let him lead. Uh-huh. I definitely would. Um I want to be a part of the discussion though. Um, and I probably wouldn't want to be calling him out maybe publicly, but I do still want to be a part of the decision making as a couple and maybe eventually as a family. But I do think I don't think there's anything wrong with submitting, but there's also nothing wrong in asking where we're going.
SPEAKER_05Sure, I agree with that. Yeah, in any healthy relationship, I I think you can't I I think that and that's true. I guess uh some people um take it to a next level, which they think that submission means um taking away a person's voice. And that is not how it should be because anybody should be allowed to have a voice and anybody should be allowed to
Monogamy, Openness, And Definitions
SPEAKER_05have an opinion. Um but submission is a healthy way of allowing somebody to lead without um questioning certain decisions that perhaps even through communication, if there is a situation where there is disagreement, you have to trust your man enough to know that if they're making a decision, that that decision is for the best of the both of you, right? And I think um what ends up happening sometimes is that people forget that, and but also that comes from a place of not really trusting your partner, and usually I've noticed that women who don't submit to their partner is because they don't really trust them.
SPEAKER_01That's true. That happened to my mom, and even she just straight up told me she's like, because that was an argument in her. So the last relationship she was in, it was a very long-term one from like when I was five to when I graduated, almost graduated college, or my sophomore year of college, and um he would always get mad that she um, you know, you're not treating me like a man, you're not you're and she would just be like, they would have arguments. She was very straight up. She's like, if you start acting like one, I will. How do you want to be um seen as a certain thing or have me take care of certain things, but yet you're not doing X, Y, and Z? She's like, for you to get that, you also need to have me get in a certain feminine mode. She's like, if I'm always in a masculine mode, why would I if I'm having to take on both roles? Oh, sorry, what am I like? What are we doing here? She's like, I'm not gonna do that.
SPEAKER_08Right. I think a lot of the problems in dating today stem from everybody wants the benefits of. The role, but nobody wants the responsibilities of the role. So all the guys, you know, watch three Andrew Tate videos and they're like, I'm the alpha. I'm like, okay, like of the Wendy's that you manage, you know what I mean? Like, what are you the alpha of? It's like they don't have their shit together, but they want to have the attitude of, I'm the boss, I run shit. My girl is, you know, bows down to me, blah blah blah. But then also on the flip side, girls are trained by Beyoncé and all these movies and everything, like, oh, I'm a boss bitch. I, you know, I run shit. But then they're also not taking on, number one, not making money for a lot of them. And then a lot of times also not taking on the feminine role, like, oh, I'm not gonna cook, I'm not gonna clean. It's like, all right, so nobody's doing nothing. That's kind of cool. Everybody's just trying to be cool. Like, that's pretty much what it is.
SPEAKER_01That's what I kind of noticed because I do feel like it's both parties, like, like they're both not wanting to do the the responsibilities of it. I totally agree.
SPEAKER_08It's crazy. So I typically date younger. Okay. Um, and I'm I grew up with a very like old school dad, right? So very much like, hey, you take care of shit, like you're paying on the date, like none of this bullshit, right? So the the issue I run into is like, okay, let me give you an example. So one girl I dated pretty recently, um, she FaceTimes me one day, she's like freaking out, right? And she's like, Zach, I just got in a car accident, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, okay, are you safe? Are you hurt? Like, are you okay? She's like, Yeah, I'm fine. I'm just like freaking out, right? So I'm like, okay, like calm down, I'll walk you through it. You're gonna get out of the car, you're gonna take a video of the damages, and you're gonna get two things their license plate and their insurance information. I'll handle the insurance, I'll deal with everything, like you're gonna be fine.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's sweet.
SPEAKER_08So she like takes a deep breath, she like is fine. She gets out of the car. Um, she sends me the video. It's like a it's like a tiny dent in her car, like it's like a fender bender. And I'm like, and she's I'm like, look, you're gonna be okay. Just like stop standing in the middle of the road. Like, she's gonna be a good idea. And then out of the other car, this other girl gets out.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, she's doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_08She's on the phone with her dad on speaker phone.
SPEAKER_01How cute!
SPEAKER_08So they end up just holding the phones next to each other, and I'm like talking to her dad.
SPEAKER_01I think this was a meme.
SPEAKER_08This was a what?
SPEAKER_01I think this was a meme. I swear I saw this on Instagram where they were saying, like, two girls got an accident, they're told they were holding their phones up for their dads to talk to each other.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, like and so that girl, for example, very chaotic relationship, but she she mentioned something to me one time because like she'd also have like you know, she'd have like 17 parking tickets, and then like I'm like, dude, you what what happened? I just find them in her room, and I'm like, you never paid for these, and she like, I just I don't know what to do. Like, where do I put the code? I'm like, it's not that hard. I'm like, take care of it. Literally, it's just a website, and it's like enter this number, and then that's it, you know. But she's just like, she's just that personality, she like would freak her out, yeah. And so she mentioned me sometimes, she was like, Zach, you know, you always complain about helping me, but I think you like it. And I was thinking about it, I was like, kind of yes. But then the problem was it's like, okay, like I don't care that much if my girl like cooks for me. Like, we'll hop in the BMW, we'll go to catch, we'll get a steak, whatever. Like, I have a maid, you don't have to clean. But like, I don't know, like, if I'm doing all this stuff, like you can't even like make the bed. Something like no appreciation. Draw me a picture, just do something that shows me that like you're gonna put effort into this relationship, you know. And I think on both sides, for guys and girls, I think nobody wants to do shit. Everybody just wants to like exist and have like high expectations of the other person.
SPEAKER_01Or if you do, I feel like people take advantage of it. Because I remember I was dating someone a couple years ago, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be like a boyfriend. Um, and actually he lived up um, I think he lived in LA. Yeah, he lived up in LA, and like, so I would drive up with like food too, like for him and his roommates and all made up, like, oh, look, I'm coming to see my man, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I would find out, like, oh, there was other like I could see like there was stuff from other girls every time I would come up. And the thing is, I had been coming up for a couple weekends already. Like, we it's a couple months in, and I'm over here, like, and there's still you're lying about it. Yeah, and like I finally kind of just asked him about it, he would lie to me about it, and I'm like, I know you don't think I'm stupid.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, what's going on? And um, he just kind of finally was just kind of like, I don't know, maybe I'm just not ready for something serious yet. Like, I'm sorry, like hopefully we can still be cool. And I'm like, Yeah, I wish you would have been honest. Like, you know, you kind of were like leading me on, not really being honest that she wanted to be more casual, which that would have been fine with me, like just let me know. But you know, I kind of feel a little like a little like it's fucked up.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. You seem very well adjusted. Like you seem like you handle situations very maturely. Now you went through the phase that made you like this.
SPEAKER_01Well, because I also just feel like if someone's gonna bring that side of me out, like I don't need to be around them.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I feel like we should be able to be adults and just like this is what it is and this is what's what it's not. And if I can't, if we can't have that and I'm starting to feel like I'm getting I'm getting angry, I'm like, okay, let me walk away. Let me walk away from this.
SPEAKER_05What do you consider cheating?
SPEAKER_01Umly if there's actually been spoken words like we're together, and I feel like uh if you're texting someone else and it gets very like emotional, like you're flirting, I do feel like that's cheating. If you're getting um fine flirting. You cheat, don't you?
The Triangle Of Love: Chemistry And Stability
SPEAKER_09You got called out, mom. You got called out.
SPEAKER_01You you like you like to see like push the boundaries, don't you?
SPEAKER_05No, I I mean it's a good idea. No, it's it's it's a question for people to understand what is right and what is wrong because that line is different for everyone. Absolutely. You know, there are girls who we've had on the podcast who have said, um, you know, for example, if you're talking to someone or flirting or whatever, it's okay because that's what they do when they're like working at a club or like OnlyFans or whatever, this and that, right? So that line is just different for everybody.
SPEAKER_01So for me, it would um I agree. If like I used to be like when we're talking, oh no, don't talk, but I realized I was like immature, we're not even together. But I do feel like once we've established that we're um exclusive, we're gonna be boyfriend and girlfriend. Um, I I feel like you shouldn't be entertaining another girl. There should be no flirting whatsoever. Not I mean, if you if you call her pretty, I mean, maybe in person, like, oh, he looked good today, Jen. Whatever, like that's fine. But I don't feel like if you see her coming up, she like, hey, Zach. No, what are you gonna do after work? Um, that's gonna be a problem if you're entertaining.
SPEAKER_05So it's it's more so about intention, right? Yes. So if the intention behind it is that the person is trying to do something, then that's not okay.
SPEAKER_01Better break yourself.
SPEAKER_05But don't you think that flirting and okay, let me rephrase it this way. Don't you think that desire for validation is something that every human being um craves?
SPEAKER_01I think to an extent they do. It is nice to, you know, feel like I guess you're handsome or whatever, but I just feel like I mean shit's gonna attract flies as in regardless, you know? Sure. So I would rather be not I would rather I would rather have more quality around me and be having people that are more quality value me and think like of me. Like it's almost like, am I gonna drop if I if I you know that like phrase where they say with the guys like if if you had a if you found a hundred like guys that say when they're cheating, like if there's a hundred dollars, but just because I have a thousand dollars in my bank account and I see a hundred dollar on the bill, doesn't mean I'm not gonna take it. But it's like if it meant you had to lose a thousand dollars for that hundred bill, would you take it?
SPEAKER_03Well, of course not.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So that's what I'm just saying is like I do feel yes, people want to feel wanted, want to feel like a lot of people like them, but at the same time, at least for me personally, like I value more what the people that I value most think of me. I want to so if I'm let's say I had a man and oh, I right now I kind of feel down, I don't feel as confident, so I'm gonna go to the club that I'm gonna work and try to flirt with everybody because I I feel down. I just feel like because I want to have that little moment of gratification, I may lose out on this person that is one in a million, and that would hurt their feelings too. That would like that just sucks.
SPEAKER_05Well, I guess the main question is why does it hurt you? Why do you think people get hurt if the person they're with is, so to speak, flirts with somebody else?
SPEAKER_01Why do they need that when they have me?
SPEAKER_05You're you're asking the wrong question. The question is why does it hurt you?
SPEAKER_01Why does it hurt me? It hurts me because why aren't you flirting with me?
SPEAKER_05Why do you need happen to you?
SPEAKER_01Why do you need to flirt with someone else? Like, I also kind of question what is inside you that feels so low and so insecure about yourself that you need to go out and find other validation from other people? Are you not securing yourself to feel that validation with yourself? So you need constantly to have people else tell you that you're the shit?
SPEAKER_05You just added a bunch of stuff that are not relevant, like insecurity has nothing to do with the with the with the feeling of happiness when you're validated.
SPEAKER_01But why would you feel validated by flirting with someone who's not your person?
SPEAKER_05Because that naturally would happen regardless.
SPEAKER_01Why? So then you are cheer.
SPEAKER_05The you the the the concept of assuming that the only validation that you get from a person you're in a relationship with relationship with is flawed. You can't if I met you for the first time and both of our single, yeah, and you're you're validating me, you're giving me validation, and I'm giving you validation that feels good both ways. If there's attraction, obviously. Yes. So so so if we're not in a relationship, then where would I be getting that validation from? I would be getting the validation
Nightlife, Trust, And Jadedness
SPEAKER_05from just whoever I'm talking to who I'm attracted to.
SPEAKER_01But you're single, so you can do that.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. But but you just created this concept of you can't do it because now you're in a relationship. But the reason why you're saying you can't do it, right, is because it is hurting the person you're with.
SPEAKER_01It's just wrong. Like, why would I do that?
SPEAKER_05Who said it's wrong?
SPEAKER_01I feel it's wrong.
SPEAKER_05I understand. So the question now is why do you feel it's wrong? And it can't be because society told you it's wrong.
SPEAKER_01It's not because it would hurt my feelings. I'm speaking just of me. It would hurt my feelings that the some person that I feel that we had a commitment, we had an understanding of that we aren't gonna be doing we're gonna any other people. We're not gonna be entertaining any other people, we're just gonna be entertaining each other. Why is that person seeking validation from someone else then? Why are they flirting with somebody else? It's not like they're validating, like, oh, you did a good job at work and they got a a cookie or something. They're have intentions to have almost a physical flirty type of thing, which I do feel is crossing the line. Because again, I know you feel it's irrelevant, I'm adding irrelevant things, but like what is inside of that person that makes them feel like I made this commitment, I made a con I made a spoken handshake agreement with someone that we're gonna be partners, and now I just feel like I need a little pick me up. Let's go for it. Like, why?
SPEAKER_05Okay. Um what's the reason somebody would eat a cookie?
SPEAKER_01Because they wanted one?
SPEAKER_05Well, why did I want one? Because it tastes good. Okay. It makes them feel good. At the end of the day, anybody does anything that makes them feel good. Okay. The desire to do things is if the thing that they do makes them feel good. If it doesn't make them feel good, they wouldn't be doing it. Yeah? So if I'm going and I'm flirting with someone, the desire for the validation is not because I'm empty inside. It's just because the validation makes me feel good. It doesn't mean that I'm insecure. It just means that the validation makes me feel good. I could not what do I care about validation?
SPEAKER_01Why do you care about that person validating you? Why did you want to go and have that person that isn't your person that you made a commitment to do that? Why why okay?
SPEAKER_05Why does that make you just added this part of like made a commitment to, right?
SPEAKER_01But we're talking about like relationships, are we not? Or no?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, we are talking about relationships. However, the it's something interesting that you just brought up was that when we have an agreement, yeah, the the thing that is hurting you is based upon the agreement you have. So you're being hurt because you thought that you had an agreement that you're not gonna do this thing. And so when the person goes and does it, then therefore they're hurting you.
SPEAKER_08Nah, but that's not a hundred percent of it. Because let's say you didn't have like, let's say you're like cheating, my line is like, you know, making out and kissing. But anything before that is not cheating because technically you didn't do anything, right? So if you're at a party and Vika, let's say Vika's all over me. He's talking about my wife. Yeah. Let's say she's drunk, she has her hands wrapped around my neck, and she's like this close to my face talking to me. But we don't do anything, we don't kiss, we don't nothing. You're just gonna be sitting over there, like, oh, look, Vika's having a conversation with Zach. That's great. Or are you gonna like feel kind of hurt inside? Or dishes. What would be the what would be that's a good word for disrespect?
SPEAKER_05But the question is, why would I feel that way?
SPEAKER_08You're telling you you wouldn't feel that way?
SPEAKER_05I'm asking
Cheating, Intention, And Emotional Lines
SPEAKER_05you, why would I feel that way?
SPEAKER_08Because your wife's like two inches from my face.
SPEAKER_05You just repeated the same thing. Yeah. What the re- Why is it? Why would I feel disrespected? But why would I?
SPEAKER_08Because it makes you look bad. Like everybody in the room is gonna be like, oh, I thought that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_05Let me ask you a question.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't like it even if people weren't in the room, I'll be honest with you.
SPEAKER_05If she did that with her girlfriend, if she did that with Alina, yeah, would I feel should I feel disrespected and hurt?
SPEAKER_01If your wife was by.
SPEAKER_08No, I I wouldn't I wouldn't care if it's a girl. If it's a girl, uh just send me the video.
SPEAKER_05But you see, you see what's happening, right? Different standards for different things, but and that that to me is insecurity, right? That to me is if I went and I felt like a certain way toward towards her doing that to you, right? I would feel like I would ask myself, why is it that I feel this way? What am I worried about?
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because then at that point, I'm worried about something.
SPEAKER_08Not not not necessarily, because people say that it's like, oh, I'm worried she's gonna cheat on me or leave me or do something like this. But also it just makes you look bad. Everybody's gonna be like, damn, Mo's chick is like, look, Mo's like this little simp in the corner doing all these things for her, and look, she's all over Zach.
SPEAKER_01And like she's calling him, like, do you look so hot? Yeah, yeah. And like playing with his nose, playing with my balls, like, oh my gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_05But but what is the problem here?
SPEAKER_01You're okay with that.
SPEAKER_05I'm asking a question. What is the problem here?
SPEAKER_01I think everything's a problem. Like, I feel like it is incredibly disrespectful to do that. I feel like you're crossing a line, and I wouldn't do that to someone, and I wouldn't want them to do it to me.
SPEAKER_08I feel like you're over logicing this into a point where it's like, all right, you're telling me you that wouldn't make you feel cut some kind of way.
SPEAKER_01Because if that's if we could explain why it would, then how could it not? Explain that.
SPEAKER_05Because because I think people have got to a point where they're they've they've taken and and so okay, we're talking on a monogamous relationship. Okay, to be clear. First of all, I'm in an open relationship. So I I for me, any of these things that you guys are talking about is is is essentially just having a conversation with my wife and asking her um, why do you want to do this? Yeah, and then she would tell me a reason, for example. Oh, I just you know, I feel attracted to Zach, for example, and you know, I just felt like like that was hot, right? And so the I I think the the problem with monogamy, the biggest problem with monogamy, is that it has come to a point of attempting to um limit the natural behaviors of human beings, okay? And there are certain things that are just like normal and they're biological. One of them being men are visual creatures, and that's just that's been proven. There's nobody that could argue otherwise. Now you could say that some people are not as um, I guess, uh uh uh they don't have high dopamines or uh a way of feeling attracted to people physically, and that's that's sure. You know, but generally speaking, most men are visual creatures, so they look at somebody and they find somebody visually attractive, and they have the urge of wanting to seek validation, which is if I'm attracted to you, I would like you to give me the validation of making me feel like you're attracted to me. Yes, it's not being insecure, it's just a natural human being behaving the way that they behave. So when you ask a question of, you know, why does a person want to go and seek validation from some somewhere else when you have a partner, yeah, is because that person is visually attracted to this person that they just saw, and they want to feel like that person is also attracted to them. And the the limit that you have put in your relationship at that point is that you're saying that this is wrong. You shouldn't be doing this. And I'm not saying there's yes, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that because everybody could choose where their line is. Yeah. So you're choosing that's where your line is. However, then you're trying to control where the natural behavior of your man perhaps could be.
SPEAKER_02Maybe.
SPEAKER_05Where biologically he's just a visual creature and he finds women attractive, and then you're basically telling him, don't look, don't find somebody else attractive.
SPEAKER_01But what's really happening is attractive, I just feel like it's kind of rude to voice it.
SPEAKER_05See, that's where you and I would defer because I think that I would love for my wife to tell me if somebody's attracted, if she's attracted so.
SPEAKER_01We were discussing about them telling that person and having a flirting situation, and that's where I think that's crossing a line. And I do agree with you, like it's also like it's it's a matter of choice. Like, even like the way you feel, like that wouldn't be a big deal to you. It's and that would make you feel happy, like the validation of doing that. Well, it would make me feel happy, and you are open with your wife, and that's what works for you and your wife. You guys both agreed on that's what's acceptable. And I feel like regardless, no matter what, if it's open or closed relationships, I feel like it's all like again, intention. What both people, what both parties you are one of the few men, which I will say is that's being honest about what you want, what your intentions, what you feel is okay. A lot of men aren't. They have this thing about where they want to put these women in a closed door, but then they could put slang their thing out like it's freaking a girl scout click. And that's where I feel like it's kind of messed up. But even if that's what they want to do, because I've actually I know some guys who it's like they actually do that and their wives are okay because their wives know their role. Even though I don't like it and I wouldn't want it, I still feel it's like it's as easy as picking I like hamburgers and I like sushi. If that's what rocks your boat, that's what rocks your boat. But I feel both people need to be aware of what's going on and quit lying. Like if that's what you want to do, there's a bunch of women that would want to do that, and or men or whatever you want to do. Like, I just feel a lot of people aren't living authentically and actually communicating what they really want.
SPEAKER_08I still don't believe you.
SPEAKER_05About what? About her hugging you and being this close to you?
SPEAKER_08Okay, let's say it wasn't me. Let's say it was a certain person who you are not very fond of.
SPEAKER_05But that's not that's not the same situation because there is there's negative history there. So you're bringing in a factor that is completely irrelevant to this case. Okay, fine. If it was me. That's still. What if it was just like a random hot crush?
SPEAKER_01Um who's your celebrity crush? One of her, let's say her lever, so she's on her celebrity crush and just flirting with them. Would that make you honestly? I probably would be like, go girl. But um here's the thing.
SPEAKER_05Look, like I what I believe in is two people communicating and understanding each other and being compatible and being honest.
SPEAKER_02I agree with that.
SPEAKER_05Those are the things that I believe in. And I think within those uh within those bounds, if if if if you do everything that you say you're going to do, then you're going to be in a safe space.
SPEAKER_02I agree.
SPEAKER_05It is not to say that people cannot make mistakes because people make mistakes, and that's okay. And sometimes people make mistakes not knowing that how big of a mistake it is. Yes. And and I think uh if you're in a relationship, if you're in a marriage specifically, if you're in a long-term relationship, you have to give grace and allow your partner to make mistakes and feel safe. And this is very important, feel safe making mistakes where they they don't feel like if they told you the truth, or if they made a mistake, then they're gonna be there's gonna be retaliation, or there's gonna be a situation where things are gonna be blown out of proportion. Because if I allow my partner to make a mistake, and then we sit down and have a conversation, and she seems uh uh uh sorry and she seems um uh remorseful, then
Validation, Jealousy, And Control
SPEAKER_05then and and and if I understand that she's she now understands that she made a mistake and she's not gonna do it again, then then we could just move on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because then now we have resolved the situation. Yeah. So I I I think that's for me, those are the most important qualities and values that I have. So, so you know, when when you say that like, oh, like she comes up and she does it, like I can't picture her doing that, right? While she's sober, for example.
SPEAKER_08Well, if she's drunk, sure.
SPEAKER_05So so that's what I'm saying. Okay, while she's sober, I can't I can't imagine her doing this. Yes, because in in no way, shape, or form, based upon the conversations we've had, based upon the things that we've discussed and the values that we have and my understanding of who she is as a person, uh, she's not gonna do it. Now, if she's drunk and she did that, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna say, I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna think to myself, okay, why did she do it one? And then two, how do we move forward from here?
SPEAKER_08Because you're not gonna feel like hurt by that.
SPEAKER_01I this is where I kind of want to have his back, where it's like they do have an like I think it's different because we come from more of traditional monogamous backgrounds. He's coming with an open relationship. No, I'm just not it's just true. Like, he has an open relationship, and I feel like they have an understanding where I could kind of see that I'm trying to put my headspace in that room where I'm gonna be like, like, what is he, what are they gonna do?
SPEAKER_08No, I'm not saying she's being honest in doing it. I'm saying you would feel some kind of way about it.
SPEAKER_05I would feel I would be like I would be like, what happened that she's all of a sudden attracted to Zach? Like that's what I would think to myself, and then I would be like, I mean, something must have happened, and then I would just wait until she's sober and then have a conversation. It's just like that, that would be the it's interesting. I was just talking to her right before I before I got here, and I was like, I was having a conversation. She was and we were just having a conversation about something, and I said, and this, and I've said this to her a lot in the past. And this is I I came to this conclusion because and I'll and I'll tell you guys what happened because what you're telling me, it is true, it did happen to me, and I was hurt by it. Yes, in the past, no, no, no, in the past, but what happened was I I grew and I had this understanding of what I and I believe this to my core, and I and I say this to her, and I've said this to other people, and I've probably said this to you at some point. I believe if you allow other people's action to hurt you or control your emotions, then you're no longer in control.
SPEAKER_08But you and you're you're you're acting like you can just decide what emotion to feel, which is not the case.
SPEAKER_05You can decide who you allow and how you allow them to hurt you.
SPEAKER_08Like if someone punches you in the face, you can't just decide to not feel hurt by it. Like you will feel you can decide on your actions and if you will retaliate, but you can't decide if you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_05I think you'd be surprised what your m brain and mind is able to control. I think if somebody here's an interesting, here's an interesting thing. If somebody slapped you in your face, yeah, yeah, um, there are a variety of emotions that you could be feeling. Yeah, yeah. You know, anger, sadness, um, being upset, um hateful, right? All these things. But you're in control of every single one of those feelings.
SPEAKER_08Not of the feeling, you're only in control of the actions you take.
SPEAKER_05If you practice being in control of your emotions long enough, then you would be in control of every one of those feelings. Because it just takes like a moment.
SPEAKER_08You're just in control of like still feeling the emotion, but then deciding not to take an action because of it. But you're not in control of the emotion itself. You will still feel the emotion.
SPEAKER_05If the emotion exists within you because you haven't resolved it, then yes, you would feel those things. But if you had enough experience, then you just when that feeling just wouldn't come up.
SPEAKER_08Alright, I'm gonna come up with a new weight loss diet. I'm just gonna tell everybody just decide not to be hungry, just choose to not feel hungry, and you will never eat, and you'll lose a shit ton of weight.
SPEAKER_02It's working.
SPEAKER_09It's like it's like that you can't, you're not, you're not gonna be able to not feel the longest you haven't eaten something.
SPEAKER_05Um have you ever fasted? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08For like I don't know, maybe like 20 hours, let's say.
SPEAKER_05Have you ever noticed that like after like a certain hour you're no longer hungry?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, but then it comes back. Yeah, it still comes back. Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_09But but if this were the case, this would be the diet that everybody would follow.
SPEAKER_05It's it's it's hard to explain this because I think there is there is there is there's a level of having to experience it yourself in order to really like understand it.
SPEAKER_08Well, I know I know the experience you're describing, but that's just like, yes, if you feel like an emotion for long enough, it will naturally over time kind of dissipate to some extent. But that's not because like you have like taken control of your mind and you are a master, like psychological expert. It's just because like that's just how our emotions work.
SPEAKER_05You're arguing that the emotions exist regardless. Yes and you're arguing that the the the you can't you can't get rid of the emotions, yeah. But but regardless, I I think this is a moot point because it's irrelevant whether or not the the the the emotion exists or not. The the only question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you're in control of it. If I get angry, I could get angry all like somebody can make me angry all they want. Yeah, you know, if if I'm in control of my anger and I do don't do anything in order to seem angry or look angry or try to attack, then it's just what difference does it make whether I feel anger or not?
SPEAKER_08Because yeah, yeah, sure. I agree with that. So I mean that's really all that matters. Okay, so now let's take it to the original argument. So if I'm dating a girl and she's all over another guy, let's say I feel like what the fuck, I feel disrespected, I feel angry, all these things. Cool, I decide not to do anything because I'm have mastered my mind and decided not to do anything with these emotions, but now I'm stuck in a relationship where I'm fucking angry all the time. And that sounds like a nightmare.
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_08So why would I want to be in that kind of relationship?
SPEAKER_05Um, you wouldn't like imagine you wouldn't want to met every guy she met.
SPEAKER_08She's just all over, and you're like, I'm gonna control, I'm, you know, I'm the master of my emotions. Yeah, she can be all over, you know.
SPEAKER_05Because you're asking why would I want to be in that relationship versus asking why do I even feel this way to be out? And this is why when I was asking you the question, why is it that we feel jealousy? Why is it that we feel possessed and that's why is it that you, as you said, feel territorial?
SPEAKER_01Because we had an understanding, just like you have an understanding with your wife that you're allowed to do these things. We had a an agreement that we don't, that that would hurt our feelings.
SPEAKER_06We have the desire to have her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because that's what I would like. Just like I want the cookie, that's what I want. The same way you have the desire to want what you want. It's just what we desire. You can't really question why why do you want an open relationship? Why do you why do you want it to be okay for you know your wife to go up to someone like to know the answer to that question?
SPEAKER_08Okay, but you could flip it the other way too. Which is okay. You want an open relationship, why don't you just decide that you're not going to feel the feelings of attraction towards other girls? I'm sorry, say that you just control your emotions. So you see a hot girl, you're like, she's really hot, and then you can just decide to not feel attracted to her. Emotions are natural, like you said. So of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you couldn't like just like your emotions are natural, so you couldn't control what your argument to the openness is that's a natural human instinct. So why can't you control that natural human instinct?
SPEAKER_05That's where you go into monogamy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_08So whatever.
SPEAKER_01So why can't why can't you do that? Why can't you choose that?
SPEAKER_05Because then you're trying to control a natural way of you're taking away a part of your happiness. Yeah, same thing being a little happiness for you.
SPEAKER_08Same thing if your partner is always all over another guy and that makes you feel angry, you're taking away your happiness by allowing a relationship where she's talking to other guys.
SPEAKER_05But the sure the problem with that, the way that you're phrasing it, is it's just you can be in the fucking Olympics with the amount of mental gymnastics that you're playing right now.
SPEAKER_09We have the high ground mode.
SPEAKER_05No, you don't because because the because where it comes from for you, it's taking away somebody else's happiness in order for you to be happy. They take it to the city.
SPEAKER_01Why is it taking away their happiness? And why would it be if if they're both agreeing not to do it? If they both said we both desire to be monogamous, why would I be taking away their happiness if that's what we both said we want? So then they're just a liar.
SPEAKER_04Yes, because he's lying because that's obviously not what he wants.
SPEAKER_01But again, that's his problem. He lied.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_01So he should just be honest about it and then beans find someone who wants the openness as well.
SPEAKER_05I understand. Yes, obviously. But that's not that's not what the issue is. Okay. You get it's it's interesting because when I talk to people who don't understand this, they they they they they miss a very big
Honesty, Boundaries, And Compatibility
SPEAKER_05factor, which is looking inward of why they feel the way they do. Yeah. I understand why I feel this way, and I understand why I'm doing it, and I understand why it works for me and my partner, for example, right? However, when people say that they want to be in a monogamous relationship, it's it always comes down to the fact that they cannot resolve their emotion of feeling like they are gonna get hurt if their partner goes and gives somebody else attention. That's where the true insecurity is.
SPEAKER_08But I don't like the word people always say like the word insecurity, and I think it's like super overblown because it's like is that insecurity or is that just choosing the type of relationship? It's just calling out on your on you lying.
SPEAKER_01You said you wouldn't do something and I'm I'm hurt that you lied.
SPEAKER_05It's true insecurity. What is it that you're afraid of? And the thing that you're afraid of is they that person who is with you leaving you for somebody else, is taking away the thing that you have with them and giving it to somebody else.
SPEAKER_01It's not that I'm not afraid of that though. If they could take them, have them. I don't want you.
SPEAKER_05I like true. That's not true.
SPEAKER_01How do you know you can't?
SPEAKER_05Because you're gonna because you will be hurt regardless. Because if that were true, you wouldn't be going crazy calling that girl.
SPEAKER_01You're right. I was hurt, but I still let them go. Because why would I want that? That's not what I want. It's as simple as wanting like dessert, like you were saying. I wanted, I I had an understanding, I wanted that, and I didn't get that, so I left.
SPEAKER_05Yes, you didn't want the thing because the thing was that you wanted to be monogamo monogamous, and that person wasn't being monogamous. I understand this. But the reason why you want to be monogamous is because there is I don't know how else to say this because there's only one way to say it. The only reason why a person wants to be monogamous is because they're not secure enough in order for them to trust that the person they're with is not gonna go and be with somebody else. You left that relationship because you realize that he was never gonna give you that. So you left. And that was your standard. If you decided to be in an open, let's hypothetically say you were gonna be in an open relationship.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05For the sake of this conversation, how would that look like to you?
SPEAKER_01I don't know, so I wouldn't really do that.
SPEAKER_05See, like you can't even imagine it.
SPEAKER_01Like it's just such a- But that's where it's like again. I feel like just like you feel like we're going on the extreme of like, oh, everyone needs to be like this. I feel like, again, float your boat. I feel like you're trying to bring us all the way over on the openness.
SPEAKER_08I'm not trying to bring anybody over anything. No, here's here's the here's the issue. Okay, so monogamy, so we have one boundary that we think is like this boundary, if they cross it, we're not gonna be happy. And you're saying this boundary is insecurity, but you also have a boundary. Like if Vika hooked up with all your friends and posted on social media, that would probably cross your boundary. You just have a different boundary that you set that's arbitrary, but you're saying our boundary is insecurity, and your boundary is like because you've mastered like the your mind or something.
SPEAKER_01Or let me do this. Let's take away romantic relationships. Let's say we have a standard of we're all best friends, and we don't like it that if you slap us, we're over. What if I just turn around ha ha ha, boom, slap you? You will, you should be able to control your anger and not.
SPEAKER_03I would control my anger. I would ask you why did you do that?
SPEAKER_01I felt like it. Just felt like it didn't. It gave me validation. It gave me validation.
SPEAKER_05Mo's gonna get fucking punched, I was gonna be like, it felt good. No, it's different if a random person.
SPEAKER_01It just felt good. It made me feel happy. Just like the validation of flirting might.
SPEAKER_05But but if what you said is actually true, then I would be like, What why does that make you happy? And if you said, well, you know, this I I've realized that like why would it hurt you? Huh?
SPEAKER_01But why would it hurt you?
SPEAKER_05It wouldn't hurt me. If you said that and it truly made you happy, I would be like, well, you know, it doesn't make me happy for you to hit me in the face, but like I But why not?
SPEAKER_01Why can't you choose to make it have you be happy?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, control your emotions. Control your emotions. I mean, technically speaking, I probably could.
SPEAKER_08If I want you just dug, I think you like dug in so far this point.
SPEAKER_05But it's true, unable to like I don't think no, I think we're we're adaptable human beings. If I decide that that's what I want to do, I I could. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I would put a doubt, but I'm I don't think I would because for me, that's just not something that would make me happy, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I under but but but it but you're taking it to like a level of like you're saying, but the reason why it wouldn't make me happy, I still understand why it wouldn't make me happy. If somebody's punching me in the face, I don't like it because it's a it's a painful thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it hurts my heart when someone does something.
SPEAKER_05Hurts your heart because it's understanding why it's happening, yes. It that physical pain isn't is not the same as uh emotional pain, those are two completely different things. Emotional pain comes from a place of uh uh certain certain psychological uh upbringing, understanding, and and what society has imprinted in your in your psyche. It that's completely different than emotional pain. I could you you and I might have a different thresh uh pain threshold when it comes to physical pain. You know, there are people who get hurt, can't even uh uh look at a needle when they're getting getting syringe, for example, getting like a um shot or something, whatever. Some people, like I don't I don't mind it if you're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01You don't think the same is for the consciousness and our feelings though?
SPEAKER_05Say what?
SPEAKER_01You don't think there could be the same that same like how there's different thresholds. You don't think there's a few things? I think there is for the consciousness and feelings as well.
SPEAKER_05So yes, I think when I was a kid, I was you know, it was sort of you know that when I was getting a shot or a vaccine or whatever, um I would feel a lot more pain. Now I don't feel anything. But I think that's because I train my brain to be more in control of what that pain feels like and how much of it I allow to control my emotions.
SPEAKER_08Okay, but it still doesn't add up. So let's say, and don't answer this with some kind of like weird wraparound question. Let's say Vika started making out with all of your friends, and she would post Instagram stories of it. She'd have a story just oh hey, Claudio, make out. Hey, Zach, make out, right? Uh every day, news story, new story. And and and you were like, hey, like, I don't want you doing that. Like, I feel disrespected.
SPEAKER_05Why am I saying that?
SPEAKER_08So you wouldn't you wouldn't feel disrespectful.
SPEAKER_05I'm asking you a question. You just came up with the hypothetical, so I'm I'm trying to understand how you would just let that go.
SPEAKER_08And you would just let her keep continue to do that.
SPEAKER_01I think he's asking, how would you handle it?
SPEAKER_05Again, I I would I would have a conversation. I I think you keep missing the tactical.
SPEAKER_01If you have a conversation, then why would you have the conversation?
SPEAKER_05Does it bother you? No, because it would be something strange for her to do. You guys keep missing it. It wouldn't bother you. It wouldn't bother.
SPEAKER_09You're lying.
SPEAKER_05It would definitely bother you when it's me.
SPEAKER_09Like, you just know why it wouldn't bother you.
SPEAKER_05But why does it bother me though?
SPEAKER_09I don't because whatever reason.
SPEAKER_08Why would it bother me? Why would it bother me? Because we're hardwired biologically. It's probably some kind of pair-bonding evolutionary theory thing that when the fucking girl that we have a crush on is making up with some other dude, we feel bad. Like that is what it is.
SPEAKER_01That's probably a literally a human reaction. I can't. That's my coconut.
SPEAKER_09It's like you get hungry because you need food. It's that simple.
SPEAKER_05Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01This is my Jane.
SPEAKER_05It's interesting because the the if if oh evolution. But if you if you look at societies and how the concept of marriage was created and how the concept of um the domination was created, yes, there is biological factors to it, obviously, that cannot be avoided. However, there is a level of asking yourself certain questions that I think a lot of people miss doing. And and people don't want to dig deep enough in order to understand themselves, and that's really where I come from. But even if you understand your feeling, it doesn't stop you from feeling it.
SPEAKER_01Because I understand that pissed me off. I understand I don't like to see that. I understand I don't want them to do that anymore.
SPEAKER_05Understanding why. Not understanding that something hurts you. Yes, everybody understands this. It's understanding why does it hurt you?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so let's. I don't like it.
SPEAKER_05That's not that's not the reason. You just made like what do you mean? That's not the reason why you're not.
SPEAKER_01Well, what do you mean? Why can't I just not like something? Why can't I just not like it?
SPEAKER_05Because there's a reason behind it.
SPEAKER_08But who cares about the reason?
SPEAKER_05You should care about the reason.
SPEAKER_08Okay, let's say I explain to you the science of getting punched in the face. I say, Mo, well, the reason you feel pain is because your dendrites connect to the neurons and that goes into your brain and that mixes with this chemical, and that's why when I punch you, you feel pain. Alright, so you're just gonna let people beat the
Do Feelings Control Us Or Do We?
SPEAKER_08shit out of you, and you're just gonna be like, oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01I just won't let my neurons come in a time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like I understand why I feel hurt right now. I'm not gonna let people beat the shit out of you. But why not?
SPEAKER_09Who cares?
SPEAKER_05Because then I'm gonna look like shit. But who cares? Why do you want to look good? Because I want to look like myself in the mirror and feel good about myself.
SPEAKER_08But why do you want to feel good? Just decide to feel good, even if you have bruises all over your face.
SPEAKER_05Because some things control your emotions.
SPEAKER_08Because facts still exist. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Which is what it's a fact that it hurt my feelings.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Huh?
SPEAKER_01It's a fact that it hurt my feelings. I can't control that.
SPEAKER_08Go back to the Vika posting all of us on social media. You're gonna look me in the face right now and tell me that wouldn't make you feel any type of way.
SPEAKER_05That would make me feel like my wife has changed into a completely different person.
SPEAKER_08And it would bother you.
SPEAKER_05It would not bother me.
SPEAKER_08You wouldn't feel sad, you wouldn't feel angry, you would literally be the fucking robust.
SPEAKER_02And what if she I just don't believe it?
SPEAKER_01And what if she just decided like this is something I'm into now and I want to just keep doing it? Would you be okay with it? If she has that kind of conversation?
SPEAKER_05I think I think yeah, yeah. I think I I think I sit down and I have a conversation and I try to understand her, and I try to understand I think this is what you guys like you guys are trying to like squeeze this like like uh incredibly uh uh uh uh stretched hypothetical into like two seconds of me answering it, but it's like it's it's not that simple because then I have to completely change my value system into like trying to understand why this is happening, trying to understand what matters to me and and if she's still the same person or not, and if our value system is still compatible. So it's just like there's a lot of factors that go into why you would do the things that you would do, but again, the the thing that I would try to understand is why.
SPEAKER_08Okay, let's say she says, Mo, this is what makes me happy. I like the validation I'm getting on Instagram of everybody seeing me make a with all these guys. And she says, Mo, just don't be insecure about it. That's your own insecurity is the fault of why you're you know talking to me about this. Are you gonna still stay with her and be and allow that behavior to continue?
SPEAKER_05It's interesting because like no like being with the person is like, yes, you're asking me this question, and I'm thinking to myself, what what does it really change in my life? You know, aside from like a bunch of people just looking at the Instagram page. And yeah, I think the answer to that question is yes, because I don't think it really matters.
SPEAKER_02I just I don't believe it's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01I feel like also like isn't that kind of similarly? Like, I mean, yes, obviously you're willing to let more things slide, but I feel like aren't we kind of all saying the same thing though? Like we're again, we're making choices, we're making decisions of what we are okay with and what we're not. Whether it's a why or the why is sufficient for you or for us enough. I mean, we're all literally considering and thinking, is that okay with me? And would I accept this? Am I gonna stay in here? Even whether your reacting or your reaction may be calmer than maybe ours. I mean, at the end of the day, we're still gonna go to that person and be like, Why did you do that? Why did you flirt with that person? We're gonna still get a why and then decide from there. I mean, I feel like we're kind of doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_05We just may have I don't think you understand your why. I understand my why, which is like I don't, for example, with the example that he brought up, I understand I don't care about other people's opinion, right? Okay, and so to me when you're asking me that question, I'm thinking to myself, okay, what does it what's actually happening? What is the reason that I would be hurt? And I think people miss this is and this is exactly what I'm telling you, people miss understanding why the thing hurts them. If I understand why something hurts me, then I could dissect the situation and see, okay, what pieces of this do I need to change? Or if there is anything I can even change, and if I can, then I will change it. But if I can't, then obviously I will say no.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, but that's the same as what we're saying.
SPEAKER_05We're saying, okay, so no, but you you don't know the why.
SPEAKER_01How do we not know the why? Like, I feel like you're trying to make our why a lot more complex and we need to break it down when it's not that hard. It is as simple as that did hurt our feelings. I don't know why the fact of a knife hitting me and hurting versus uh a sensation that I can't control that hurt my feelings and warrants a conversation is any different. It's still a feeling.
SPEAKER_05Because when I ask you the question of why does it hurt you, you say because it hurts me. And that's not an answer. That's not a why.
SPEAKER_01I would not like that. I feel like you're thinking we're doing it because oh, other people would think of us weird. No, I'm looking at that person differently now. I don't feel like I'm this is the same person I I get all of those things, but again, that doesn't answer the question of why. How is it not? It's a commitment and you broke it. That is a why.
SPEAKER_05But you created that commitment.
SPEAKER_01You're right. It's something we created together, and now you deceived me. So I do feel like I've been like slated.
SPEAKER_05The question is why do you care about that commitment for you to create it to begin with?
SPEAKER_01Because I want to be with that person of what they presented themselves with. So when I'm seeing that they're not the person that they said they were or originally showed me, I'm gonna have a conversation about it. And if it's something I don't like to hear and I feel like it's gonna keep happening, I'm not gonna be in it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you're not answering the question.
SPEAKER_01How?
SPEAKER_05You're moving, you're moving up the street and then you're like 10 steps ahead, which is I'm still here. I'm still trying to wonder and understand this portion, which is why do you feel the way you do about wanting to be monogamous? Why is it that you want to create this setup of the person only doing the thing with you and not with anybody else?
SPEAKER_01Why do you want to have your person go to someone else? Why do you want to go to someone else? Why do you want to have options of multiple people? Why?
SPEAKER_05Happiness. So why is that? Where does the happiness come from? When is that one is biological emotional?
SPEAKER_08No, no, no, no. Both are biological. Both are biological. Jealousy is a biological emotion for sure. You think that was society jealousy?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_08No, and cavemen, I'm sure, fucking smacked each other on the rock on the head with the rocks when like their girl was like fucking another caveman.
SPEAKER_01Or you got a bigger deer than I did. I'm I'm mad.
SPEAKER_05I don't, I don't, I don't believe that because I was able to control mine. I I felt every single one of those things that you guys have felt.
SPEAKER_01You can, maybe.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you you can control it. That doesn't mean you don't feel it. You can control it because you could understand it. Until you understand it, you can't control shit.
SPEAKER_08I just don't believe you. I think if you is posting a lot of things, I believe that what you feel is what you feel. You would feel it. Okay, take this. This is a great example. So our particular friend that you don't like very much because he was spreading rumors that your wife was flirting with him and all these things. Yeah. Why don't you just say in your mind, oh, that's fine. Like, you know, he can tell people whatever he wants. He can tell everybody that, you know, my wife's super into him. That doesn't affect my life in any way. He's probably doing it because he's insecure, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Who cares? Based on your worldview.
SPEAKER_03I did. What do you mean?
SPEAKER_08Okay, so but you were still angry about it.
SPEAKER_05I wasn't angry because of the thing that he did. I was angry because of the intention behind it. But why does he make it? Because of his intention behind it.
SPEAKER_08Why does that make you angry?
SPEAKER_05Because of the fact that he was fake and he was lying, and so my relationship with him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I don't understand.
SPEAKER_08Okay, if she's saying if she sees a guy, they have this like agreement, they have this commitment, and they're prevent presented themselves as one way, and now they're being fake, just like how he was being fake to you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but my I understand. But the agreement that I have with him, somebody that I'm friends with, yes, yeah, that it's an unspoken agreement. So it's hers.
SPEAKER_01No, mine was a spoken one. We spoke. Oh, it's actually spoken. It's spoken. I'm not gonna leave gray areas. I say it.
SPEAKER_05You're you guys missing the point. We're trying to get it. You guys are jumping ahead into this whole setup. Again, the question is what if I'm at if I'm if this is happening and he's telling me, Yo, why did you get upset? And I'm like, Well, I thought we were friends. And he said, No, friends should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want. And it'd be like, Oh, I didn't know that was something that was supposed to be happening. Yes. You're saying that, oh, it's the same thing. It's not the same thing. How is it not? Because my question is not, my question is not why do you want to, why is it that he should have like I'm not saying that?
SPEAKER_01You're asking why is he being fake? Why is he not a man? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_05I'm not saying that he should he should be excused for anything that he's done. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why do you feel that you need a monogamous relationship?
SPEAKER_01Because I just I don't feel like I need it. That's what I want. I don't need a monogamous relationship.
SPEAKER_05Why is it that you want a monogamous relationship?
SPEAKER_01Same reason why you want your open relationship. That's what you want. We can't open a world.
SPEAKER_05That's not an answer. Same reason. What do you mean, same reason? You don't even know my reason.
SPEAKER_01Why do I want to I want a Chanel bag? Why do I want it? Because I just want it. Why do I want to eat sushi?
SPEAKER_05Just want I just wanted it.
SPEAKER_01That's what I want.
SPEAKER_08If you boil down the why enough, it's literally because there's a chemical in your brain that gets fired off that like makes you feel good. Like that is the end of the why chick.
SPEAKER_01It's the same with yours, same with mine. It literally is the same thing.
SPEAKER_05Okay. This is and this is the point that we're getting into. Unfortunately,
Social Perception, Respect, And “Looking Bad”
SPEAKER_05you cannot break down and dissect why because your answer is just because.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05That's and that's just I can't like I can't I can't argue further than you just don't know the reason because your answer is I just want it. For your is because you want it. It's you don't even know what my reason is, but your answer is that I want it, so then you want it. It just makes no sense.
SPEAKER_08If we asked you why enough times, eventually you get to the point, because I just want it. Oh, why why why do you care if our the guy lied about the Vika thing? Oh, well, because it makes it feel like he's not my real friend. Okay, why do you care he's your real friend? Oh, I don't care. Okay, so then why did it make you feel bad? Oh, because if I thought he was and now he's not. Well, why do you care if he like, you know, bamboozled you like that? Oh, because I don't like being bamboozled. Why do you want to do it?
SPEAKER_05No, it's because you value certain things as a person.
SPEAKER_08Okay, why do you value certain things as a person?
SPEAKER_05Why do you value a person telling you the truth?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, why do you value that?
SPEAKER_05Because if somebody doesn't tell you the truth, you never know what in in what place you're in with them.
SPEAKER_08Okay, why do you care about knowing what place you're in with them? Are you insecure about it? Knowing what place you're in with them? Why do you think that's it?
SPEAKER_05No, I'm not insecure about it. It's a why do you think it's understanding that um you it's understanding yet yet you could be trusted versus not being trusted.
SPEAKER_08Well, why do you care about being trusted?
SPEAKER_05Because if I don't know if I could trust someone, then then there are certain things that I may or may not want to do. And if I can't understand that, I cannot be in control. And if I can't be in control. Because being in control is the thing that makes me feel like I could exist in a peaceful manner.
SPEAKER_08But why do you care about existing in a peaceful manner?
SPEAKER_05Why do you care about existing in a peaceful manner? Yeah. Because existing in a peaceful manner is the way that human beings want to be.
SPEAKER_08So why do you care about being the way human beings are because I'm a human being.
SPEAKER_09Because you want because it makes you feel peaceful. Because maybe not everyone would feel that way.
SPEAKER_05You just answered me with my own answer.
unknownHuh?
SPEAKER_05But at the end of the day. I said I want to be peaceful.
SPEAKER_08Yes, at the end of the day, and she's saying she wants to be happy. That's the end of the chain of the whys. It's always a feeling. It's always going to be a feeling. You want to feel peaceful, she wants to feel happy.
SPEAKER_05No, again, you you skip through a portion of understanding yourself, and that's just, and unfortunately, I this cannot be taught. Clearly. So I I mean, I don't know what else to say. Like you asked me a bunch of no, it's just you ask me a bunch of questions and I answer those to you, but uh and I understand that that you're boiling it down to, oh, I want to be happy and this makes me happy. But this if this is not natural, and it's because there are two things, right? It's what either society has taught you to be this way, or you feel this way naturally. Yeah? You just feel possessive and jealous naturally.
SPEAKER_01But why is it that?
SPEAKER_05I don't think why is it possessive and jealousy?
SPEAKER_08Or why is that wrong?
SPEAKER_05Why is it wrong to be possessive and jealous? Why is it wrong to feel those emotions?
SPEAKER_01And why is monogamy just possessive and jealousy?
SPEAKER_05Um, it's a because because it comes from a place of you controlling somebody else and you controlling somebody else's feeling and you controlling somebody else's action.
SPEAKER_01Who says who? Why would that be the place? Maybe some people's situation, but not everyone's. Do you think everyone's situation of monogamy is like that?
SPEAKER_05Everybody's understanding of monogamy is.
SPEAKER_08But but what still, even with that, like okay, we all have boundaries that we set in relationships because we like certain types of relationships and we don't like others. So, yes, you want to control your partner to be in a way in a relationship you like, or you're not gonna be with that partner because it's not a compatible relationship, because you're not gonna be happy in that relationship. So, of course you're gonna like you can say controlling it has this negative connotation, but like, yes, of course you're gonna want your relationship to be a certain way.
SPEAKER_05It's not controlling that has a negative connotation, it's the controlling something that they're gonna feel regardless.
SPEAKER_01But why is it necessarily control? Because at the same time, if two people are choosing to be monogamous, they're both choosing to not like if we like let's say there was an agreement hypothetically, like we both decided we're gonna be monogamous. Why am I controlling you to be monogamous? You made a choice to be monogamous. So how am I controlling you? You're deciding. We talked about it and we both decided this is what crosses our boundaries, this is what you like, this is what I like. So, how is that a controlling?
SPEAKER_05You're assuming I'm not lying about it?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, because honestly, if we're talking about it, even if that's say you were lying about it, that's still an understanding we have. So again, if that say I lied and said, Yeah, I like monogamy, and then I go and just sling my thing around, I mean, I'm a liar. I I deceived you regardless. But again, we we talked, like, yeah, that's what we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_05Let's say I have How's that control? Let's say I'll tell you. Sorry. Let's say I have uh um, let's say I'm like walking down, I go to the grocery store and I see this like very attractive woman, you know, and I come home and um and I go to the bathroom and I and I close my eyes and I picture myself having sex with this girl and I masturbate. You know, have I cheated on you?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_05Why not?
SPEAKER_01You didn't touch her.
SPEAKER_05I didn't touch her. Now let's say for the for the um next like six months, I keep thinking about this girl, and that's all I think about. Let's say you and I are having sex, and while we're having sex, that's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about having sex with this girl. Have I cheated on you?
SPEAKER_01Technically, no, but I mean, why are you with me then? Go with her.
SPEAKER_05Ah, interesting.
SPEAKER_01So And you lied then.
SPEAKER_05Lied about what? What did I lie about? I didn't lie about anything.
SPEAKER_01We talked about it. We talked that we want to be monogamy.
SPEAKER_05I just saw some girl.
SPEAKER_01I know, but if we're we're coming on the pretext of that we had an agreement of monogamy, we talked about what our boundaries are.
SPEAKER_03You are monogamous. I don't even know.
SPEAKER_01So your your situation wasn't, it was just red, whatever.
SPEAKER_03Huh?
SPEAKER_08You're saying in this hypothetical, he's still sleeping with the same girl, but he's thinking of another girl.
SPEAKER_01No, I know, but are you guys in this hypothetical? Are you um the girl that you're not thinking about in your head, the one that you're actually in a relationship with? Are you guys can are you with you? I'm with you. So what didn't we didn't we like before we were saying that, like we discussed that we're monogamous and this is We are monogamous.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I haven't done anything.
SPEAKER_01You're right.
SPEAKER_03Well, what what did I do wrong?
SPEAKER_01But here's the thing is when you said, ah, like when I said, Oh, I want to be with that girl, and you're acting, you're pretty much saying, like, I'm preventing him. I are preventing him. No, he is, because he lied.
SPEAKER_06Lied about what?
SPEAKER_01He lied to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his problem. He should have been honest. He's preventing himself from not living his truth. That's like, okay, sorry to put this out there, but let's say he was gay and he's thinking of a guy this whole time having sex with me. I'm not preventing him from being with the man. He's preventing himself with being in the man.
SPEAKER_08It's not the same situation. Yes, it is. How is it not? Because because how is it not? It's not she's controlling him. Him making the decision to make a commitment is what's controlling him. That's his decision. Her controlling would be like, no, you can't leave me. I'm not gonna let you leave me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna tie fucking control. I'm gonna find you.
SPEAKER_05Like that's that's control. Of course, I understand all that, but the monogamy is what's controlling him.
SPEAKER_01He didn't need to accept it then.
SPEAKER_05He could have told people he didn't need to accept what he didn't have to do.
SPEAKER_01He didn't say yes, he didn't have to be in one. He could have did what you're doing and be like, I want to be in an open relationship, and then I could have decided.
SPEAKER_05Instead, he decided you said that the person doesn't want to be in an open relationship. I wanted monogamy, and you wanted monogamy.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05And we're together, and I saw this chick, and she was attractive, and I can't stop thinking about her. What do you want me to do?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I don't know about it, so why would I care?
SPEAKER_05So so if I said it to you, if I said six months later that this was happening, and that she I can't stop thinking about her like this is on my mind.
SPEAKER_01Then why don't you go be with her?
SPEAKER_05I can't be with her. It was some random person in the in the grocery store.
SPEAKER_01Well, then why is she still on your mind? It's just some random chick on the grocery store.
SPEAKER_05Like it's I don't I don't know she was so attractive.
SPEAKER_01I but then maybe if it's that big of a deal, you should go look for her. Like I'm that's what I'm saying is like I'm not gonna be crazy, right? I'm not gonna control you and stop you. If that's what you decide, oh my god, I'm obsessed with this girl, find her. I'm not gonna stop you. I'm not controlling you. I'm just saying is we uh this is the entrance, this is the terms to ride this ride. And if you don't apply, then beat it.
SPEAKER_05My point is if the person was thinking about somebody else and was having sex with you, as long as you don't know about it, then it's fine. They just are not allowed to do anything. So they could think about somebody else, they could fantasize about somebody else, they could have somebody else in the.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, what can I do about that?
SPEAKER_05Exactly. So it's just you don't, as long as you don't know, and it's just in their mind, they're not doing anything physically, then it's okay.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying it's like I how would I know? It's not you wouldn't. You're right. So what's your point?
SPEAKER_05My point is that that that's what it is, right? It's like if the person is lying and not telling the truth, yeah, and just keeping it to themselves, and you don't know about it, then it's fine. It's not a big deal. Because as long as you don't know it's not making her feel certain.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05It's not making you feel a certain way, then, then it's fine. You don't care, yeah? It doesn't change the fact that it exists. Okay. And that's the fact.
SPEAKER_01You're right. But once I do, I'm gonna realize that it changed my impression of them because they're lying.
SPEAKER_05Sure, I understand. I understand. But they're lying for a good reason, which is what am I gonna do with this, with this uh fascination of wanting to be with somebody else, even though that I don't want to be with this person. It's just it's just that I'm thinking about it and fantasizing them. Yeah. So it's the the fantasizing of someone else that is happening in your during your relationship with the person is not telling you anything and they're just like keeping it to themselves, and that's okay in a lot of the monogamous relationships. Monogamous relationships are as long as you don't do it's do anything with somebody else, and as long as I don't know the truth, and it doesn't hurt me, I want to know the truth though. Because if the facts do not exist in reality of our life, then they're they're not facts. Whereas I don't live like that. I want to know everything. I want to know everything of like what's what's happening and what she's thinking, and and anything that comes up, right? And so that's where the difference is.
SPEAKER_01But how isn't that not control? You want to know everything now, she has to tell you everything, it has to be run by you.
SPEAKER_05I want to just go out and just
Fashion, Signals, And Caring What Others Think
SPEAKER_05I want to know everything because she doesn't feel fearful of telling me.
SPEAKER_01But what here's my thing.
SPEAKER_05Because if she tells her best friend something, then she could tell me the same thing.
SPEAKER_01But here's my thing. If okay, so we're going back to our um, what's that thing? The like we're back in anogonous relationship. So if that's what you wanted and now because like you were venturing or thinking about something else, now you're fearful, I still don't feel like that's me controlling them though, or like or making them like again, that's on them. I don't feel like it's the monogamy, that's them. They're battling with themselves and being honest with what they want.
SPEAKER_05You're not controlling the person in the sense of you you being controlling, but you are controlling the truth.
SPEAKER_01They are. They should be honest. If they feel they did nothing wrong and it's just a thought, a desire, like it's me thinking, oh, I'm not gonna make it with Anthony Joshua one day, and I'm just thinking of him uh in bed.
SPEAKER_05I mean, or just not gonna, but that's not gonna make you happy. There's not a person with a with a straight okay. This is a very simple one, yeah. If you you put up makeup, okay, you're not feeling good. You're on a period, you're just like fucking going crazy, and you're not doing well. And you know, you put up make you put on makeup and you come and you know, you're crying, I don't know what's happening, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, how do I look? And then he looks at you and he says, You look so hot, baby. You look so beautiful, but you look like shit. You look so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01I'd rather him tell beyond it.
SPEAKER_05See, the problem is this.
SPEAKER_01That's from your past experience with certain girls. I and I agree. But me, you're right, but I that's not me.
SPEAKER_05And that's where you're generally speaking, yes.
SPEAKER_01And that's not for me, though.
SPEAKER_05So, but I understand that. And for some people, might not be the case. With my wife, I wouldn't do that. With my wife, if she says something, I would I would say, baby, I love you. You're you're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen, but I would probably change this. Yeah, yeah. I would do that because I I believe to to that honesty is the the only thing that matters, and I don't want my wife to go out or go anywhere looking like shit. So I'm not gonna have that at all. However, majority of people, generally speaking, want the lie. They ask for the lie, they don't want to know the truth.
SPEAKER_01I agree with that, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so this is then that's the type of society that we live in, and that's why monogamy is, in my opinion, more toxic than an open relationship because monogamy tends to lead the majority of the time to people just simply lying to each other.
SPEAKER_01But it's not monogamy. I feel like neither open relationships or monogamy are toxic. That's just uh labeling what your relationship is. People ruin that. It's not the construct of however you label your relationship, it's what those people do, men or women that are lying. I don't feel like you're gonna be toxic because you're monogamous or that you wanna, you know, do whatever you want to do, or even if you don't want to be in a relationship, you're toxic. I truly feel it's human nature to just do what is works for you. We have a bunch of people who either want to be like we can't dictate what's a natural reaction to people because there's so many people with different perspectives, so many people also with life experience that maybe cause a different, you know, reaction or um control of their emotion or whatever. But I don't feel it's necessarily the monogamy. Again, it's people that fuck it up, just like with everything is they can't be honest. I truly feel like it doesn't matter what you want to do. If people were just honest and said what they really wanted, and I do agree with you, it's actually deep down on why maybe some things make you feel way or what would actually make you happy if they actually sat with themselves and thought about that. I think a lot of we wouldn't have to really deal with a lot of toxic relationships because people would just go or where they're happy and be who they are.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. She's actually right because you're creating a false dichotomy of there's she says she agrees with me, so yes. Well, not really. There's you're saying there's monogamous relationships and there's open relationships, and this one's bad, this one's good.
SPEAKER_05When in reality I'm not saying one is bad, one is good.
SPEAKER_08I'm saying one is more toxic.
SPEAKER_01That's kind of what I got for you.
SPEAKER_08One tends to be more toxic, but you you don't realize like there's actually like a thousand, a hundred thousand different kinds, even within monogamy and within open relationships. Sure. You have, despite saying you have no boundaries in your relationship, I believe that you actually do have boundaries. There are some boundaries, yeah. And those boundaries are arbitrary.
SPEAKER_05That's I didn't say there are no boundaries. You said those things.
SPEAKER_08You said you let her make up with all your friends on your Instagram. That's not what I said.
SPEAKER_05No way you don't have that boundary.
SPEAKER_08Said I would have a conversation, but continue. So within all of these relationships, there's boundaries that are arbitrary. And the reason we set those boundaries is those are the boundaries that make us happy. So in my relationship, I might say, Hey, you can go on a girls' trip with your friends and I don't care. Um, but like, no, you can't like go out with your guy friend who's just a friend but actually has a crush on you. Maybe that's my boundary because one I don't like I don't care if my chick makes out with girls, it doesn't hurt me. So that's an arbitrary boundary that I have set because I don't give a fuck. But if she made out with a dude, I would give a fuck because it makes me feel bad.
SPEAKER_05In one you're worried, and in the other one you're not worried.
SPEAKER_08No, it it it's more so because it would make me feel worse from like number one, it's a bad look. And everybody's gonna be like, what the fuck, Zach? Why is your chick making up with like Ben over here? And number two, because I like it feels like if I lost something. Okay, yeah, other people's opinion. Second, if she left me for a girl, I would just it wouldn't really hurt me that much because I'd be like, Alright, well, she just likes girls. I couldn't have done it. I didn't lose to some dude. Sure. There's not yeah, I couldn't have like got more boss.
SPEAKER_01There's nothing I could do to like change that.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I got more rich. It's just like, yeah, like I'd have the only way I could like compete is like I would have to like chop my dick off.
SPEAKER_05Like that's like something I'm gonna that's exactly how I feel if she left me for another guy. I feel the same way if she left me for a girl than if she left me for a guy.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so you still wouldn't feel like, oh man, this is a bad look for me. No, I don't care about other people's.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't care about that either, to be honest. It's not about a bad look. No, I'm being full of shit. No, I'm being so real. I I it's not even about the option.
SPEAKER_05After knowing me this long, you think that I care about other people's opinion? I agree with him on that. Where it's like it's not really other people.
SPEAKER_01It's like for me, even though you don't like my answer, for me, it is my feeling.
SPEAKER_05It's not that I don't like it.
SPEAKER_01I it's just I feel you deceived me. I feel you lied, especially when you said so. That's what hurts my feelings. Is like I get literally in anger that I'm like, why did you put it back to you?
SPEAKER_08I believe that would hurt you more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't really care so much about the public opinion because personally I feel you made yourself look bad. That was a choice you made. Now people know how you are, especially when if I'm with you, like if and if I'm people are aware, I feel like, well, now people saw your ass. You showed yourself. I'm not gonna feel bad. That's nothing on me. I'm not you you didn't make me lose my worth.
SPEAKER_05That's actually true. I don't know why you think it makes you look bad.
SPEAKER_01I feel like it makes them look bad. So I never cared.
SPEAKER_05I've never thought to myself somebody cheated on somebody else. Yeah, not once I've ever thought to myself, damn, I guess that what I'm thinking. What a loser, the guy thinking.
SPEAKER_08I always feel like, oh, that sucks for the boyfriend or something. I guess I'm thinking more of the situation of like I'm at a party with my girl and she's all over some other dude. Like she's like sitting on his lap.
SPEAKER_05If you're in a monogamous relationship, then I I would I'm not gonna look at you and you're like, damn, like Zach's a piece of shit.
SPEAKER_08Like, what the fuck? No, not that I'm a piece of shit, but like, damn, Zach's girl doesn't respect him.
SPEAKER_01But it's not like that. I'm not looking at in a sense of you, because actually that happened um uh kind of recently with one of my guy friends. Um, he he brought a date, and all like all of us girlfriends were just kind of watching, and like he went really above and beyond for her. I'm not gonna lie, very chivalrous, did was really sweet, and they weren't even like dating. This was just like a first kind of encounter. And she was just really kind of rude, and just and so all of us like sisters were sitting in the back going, stop being so nice. We're like, she's she's being rude to like we were kind of getting mad at her, and we're like, Can we go say something? And he's like, No, don't say anything. We're like, No, like you did X, Y, and Z, you got her this, you got her that, you know, you took her to dinner, you brought her to this event that we're at, like you did all like it was like a big suite and everything, and like she was just really disrespectful and rude and had an attitude the whole time and was kind of trying to like see if she could run him. And like all of us, like we never we actually were not looking at him at all like that. We were kind of like we wanted to stand up for him and we're just kind of going, like, give us the word and we'll kick her ass.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, but you don't think it makes him kind of look like a pussy?
SPEAKER_05No, because I I feel like he's he's if it if it happens continuously, yes, like if you allowed this behavior to happen and you're in a monogamous relationship, sure, yes. Okay, but if you're but if it happens one time, yeah, I know for a fact that that's never gonna happen again because you're not gonna be with that person ever again.
SPEAKER_08Correct.
SPEAKER_05So if it happens one time, no, nobody's gonna be like Zach's a pussy. Everybody's gonna be like, damn, this girl's a fucking ho or whatever the fuck.
SPEAKER_08But why would it make a difference in your worldview if it happens a bunch of times?
SPEAKER_05Because you're push over now. Because then now you're saying. Yeah, but but that's a complete.
SPEAKER_01The first time you're just being a gentleman, you're having decorum and kind of like controlling your emotions and just being like, hey, like we'll talk about it later. I feel like then when it keeps happening and the person keeps letting it like, oh, I'm not gonna say anything,
Final Lightning: Does Size Matter?
SPEAKER_01then you kind of do look like a punk. Yeah, like that's but I feel one time there's nothing wrong with that.
SPEAKER_08You're just trying to- Yeah, one time is like, okay, you got bamboozled, you got tripped by this, like, you know, very like manipulative person or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you've never met a guy who is like just all about his girl. He's like, Oh, she's the best. He plies her flowers like on Instagram every day. She like posts all his flowers, and then like she's kind of like always like kind of like talking down to him and and acting like she's like the boss, and like he's just like, Oh, thanks, babe. Thanks. Like, you don't that doesn't like like you know when girls say it gives you the ick, but that's different though.
SPEAKER_01So that's like again, the guy's aware, he's letting it happen. That's I feel like is totally different than kind of the situation we first said.
SPEAKER_08But but usually he's letting it happen because he's not that good with girls, and maybe the girl's out of his league and he feels desperate. Yeah, and to me, looking desperate makes you look like a clown, kind of. I agree, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_05But then again, it comes down to like just caring about other people's opinion. Yeah, and the bottom line of it is the bottom line is everybody cares about people.
SPEAKER_08I couldn't care less. I I I know you're lying for a fact. I know you're lying for a fact. Why do you think that? Because of course, everybody it's human nature. People say all this shit, oh, I don't care what people think of me. I'm like, okay, so like you wouldn't care if like like if you like brought like a girl around your family, like let's say it was a family wedding, and you brought like a girl, and she like just like fucked up every she showed up in sweatpants, and everybody's like, Who's that girl in sweatpants? Oh, that's Mo's date. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05Like it's not because I care, I wouldn't be upset because I care about other people's opinion, but it would be embarrassing. But I I know that that's not you're you're like mixing up reasons of why somebody wouldn't like something. I just like I don't like a sloppy fucking clown. It doesn't mean because I care about other people's opinion, it's because I have standards of like how I want to behave and how I want my partner to behave.
SPEAKER_08Every time you go out, you just wear the most comfortable shit, which is like sweatpants and like a shirt from like Walmart. Like, why do why do you wear like a certain jacket that looks cool or like a hat that looks cool?
SPEAKER_01I'm not gonna lie, I agree with him on this. Like, there is certain things I will say.
SPEAKER_08I like it because you know other what other people are gonna do. Okay, no, no, no. Okay, no, hold on.
SPEAKER_01I have a passion for fashion, I'm gonna wear what I want.
SPEAKER_08So when you when you watch Netflix by yourself, do you put on full makeup and like wear in cute dress and like everything and you just go watch Netflix in your bed?
SPEAKER_01No, but that's bad for my skin. Zach, exact. Okay, hold on.
SPEAKER_05And then I want to get makeup on my skin. What do you even wear makeup anyway? What looks better? A cockroach or a butterfly?
SPEAKER_08A co uh butterfly.
SPEAKER_05Why? Why does a butterfly look better than a cockroach?
SPEAKER_08Because cockroaches are nasty.
SPEAKER_05Why do you why do you why is that?
SPEAKER_08Again, it's probably a biological feeling of we know that, like, like evolutionary cockroaches carry more diseases than you see it.
SPEAKER_05It's simple science, which is that we're visually attracted to certain things based upon certain characteristics that they have. Okay. It's the same thing with fashion. Like, I'm not gonna wear some fucking shitty ass looking bullshit because it just doesn't look good. But who cares?
SPEAKER_09I care. You care because you know other people are gonna do it.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so then again, why don't like like when you're just like at home by yourself, why don't you wear a suit and a tie?
SPEAKER_01It's not comfortable.
SPEAKER_08Exactly. It's not comfortable when you wear it out with ever uh other people too.
SPEAKER_01It's a setting though, like it's not necessarily like I get where you're kind of coming from, but I'm really not doing it for other people. Cause like I'm gonna be honest with you, like I do dress how I want. Like, even now right now, I feel like a lot of people don't dress up anymore for like going out or like even in settings. So a lot of times I actually have to ask clarification when people are like, oh, we're gonna dress up. Because for me, a lot when I'm thinking dress up, I'm thinking like kind of a gown or like something like that. And I'm starting to realize it's not the same with everybody.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and the the problem is you're mixing up certain things, which is like the thing that looks good and is uncomfortable is has a place, yes, and you have an excuse to wear it, and you just put up with the uncomfort of it, yeah. Versus I'm not gonna sit at home with a suit and and a tie because there is an uncomfortable factor that's that's attached to it. Yes, it looks good, but I also want to be uncomfortable at the same time. I will put away being uncomfortable for two hours of looking good and having variety of changing outfits. But the only But I'm not gonna be at home looking like a fucking uh hobo uh homeless person.
SPEAKER_08The only variable that is different is that there are gonna be other people who see you. That's not that's not true. But it's like your graduation cap.
SPEAKER_01Like graduation cap. So, like technically we're all wearing the same thing, but we add our personality because we like it or whatever. It's it's kind of like the same what we're arguing with the relationship. It's like we just we liked it. It's what makes you feel good and makes you feel happy. Like, I put a crown on my graduation cap because I was like, I'm a fucking princess, I'm the queen, and I liked it. And other people, you know, they put something about their culture because that's what they like, that's what's drawn to them. It's just it's kind of like we said, it's what's visually captivating to you. It's your way of showing your personality, your identity of your hello, this is me, this is what I like.
SPEAKER_08I just think it's very delusional for you guys to say you don't care what other people think. Like, if you don't care about what other people think, then like that's like a horrible way to live life. Like, if you don't care what your friends think, then like eventually you're just not gonna have any friends.
SPEAKER_05If you don't care what like I care what my friends think, but I not with everything.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, like it's like I don't care about the problem is you you guys are conflating it with like the pe and I know there's people out there who over care so much and they're just so worried about what everybody thinks of them, but there's like a healthy amount of like caring what people think about me. No, I agree natural.
SPEAKER_01But you were kind of naming specific topics, like with him, with his wife, or even with us with fashion, and that's where I think we're saying with those topics, we don't care. But I feel like like if it was my family or like if I was being a shitty person to like my people, I would want, I would care to hear what they have to say and have them come and tell me. I do care. Yeah. Um, but would I care maybe with some random person on the street? No. Or like if people are or like if or if my boyfriend is being weird, I wouldn't really care because I feel it's a reflection of him. Slightly, yes, it's a reflection of me, but I feel like if I'm around my family and friends, they know me already, so it's just giving him a bad look.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, like okay, let's say for example, so you're a promoter, so you go to the club and you're kind of like short on girls and you're tired, right? You don't feel like going and texting a bunch of girls who to go to the club, but you care what the owner of the club thinks, because if he thinks that you can't bring girls, you're gonna be out of a job and then you're not gonna be making any money. Okay. So you care what he thinks because of the impact it's gonna have on your life.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's kind of different because it's like you're caring for your job. That's something that would affect me. Uh other people's opinions depending on what isn't gonna affect me.
SPEAKER_05What I care about is me making money. Yeah. Yeah. And by extension, yes, I have obligations. I don't care about his opinion. But you do because it affects your money. You better care about his opinion. But I don't care about his opinion. But you do because in general, I care about the obligations and whether or not my obligations meet the standards of what I agreed to do.
SPEAKER_08And the reason you care about that is if you don't meet the standards, then you will stop making money. But now you're just arguing semantics. But you still, at the end of the day, you trace the line back. It matters what he thinks about you, and you care about that. Maybe it's for this reason over here or this reason over here, but that's only relevant to one thing, which is my job.
SPEAKER_05I don't care about him thinking whatever the fuck he wants to think about my wife.
SPEAKER_01Like if he if he thinks, oh, that person, I don't know, sometimes she dresses cheap and she dates pimps. Okay.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, of course you care about people's opinions when they affect your life, of course. The point being. So, like, let's say you're dating somebody, you might want to look good because you care about their opinion because you want to date them. So you care about what they think. Of course you care what they think about you.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Yeah, I care about what my wife thinks about me.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so you care what other people think about you.
SPEAKER_05Alright, so I would just he changes the complete argument of what people think to like this one thing.
SPEAKER_01Because I'm like, I feel like I did say like we do care, but just for you did say that Mo said I don't care about that.
SPEAKER_05I don't care. I don't care what people think. You literally care. No, I don't I do not care what people think.
SPEAKER_01And he did say he did say he cares about what his wife thinks are his friends. He did say that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you just said that. No, but he's we're talking about general people, though. Your wife is a person. She's one person. She's not people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're saying people.
SPEAKER_08Do you care what your friends think?
SPEAKER_05My friends are not people either. I have two friends.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree with this statement because you're making it seem like people, like general people.
SPEAKER_08Okay, well, now you guys are changing my whole argument. No, you're changing your whole argument.
SPEAKER_05So lose, lose, boo-boos, uh, whatever the fuck it is that you say. Final question. This was two hours, damn. Um uh the size matter. Wait, like, like this is this is a complete different topic. The size matter. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01Um I would say yes, sorry. I do for me. I know it shouldn't.
SPEAKER_05Have you ever been with somebody with micro penis?
SPEAKER_01Not micro, but small. Smaller.
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh. What's small?
SPEAKER_01I'm not gonna say.
SPEAKER_05No, I mean we don't know who it is. No, like what's like what size is.
SPEAKER_01To be honest, it was a decent size. It was actually just kind of skinny. Uh so it was like maybe about like five five inches, but like it was just really skinny.
SPEAKER_05And then it just didn't work.
SPEAKER_01No, I felt bad. It's really nice too.
SPEAKER_05Well, thanks for your honesty. Thanks for your openness and thanks for um letting us into your life. And
Closing Thoughts And Goodbyes
SPEAKER_05I hope you find uh Well, I guess you're not really looking for a relationship, but I guess eventually you find what it is that, you know, makes you happy. And thank you guys for watching. We'll see you later.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me.