Pleasure Without Substances Ft. Moshe & Nela - Ep.185

Special thanks to Moshe & Nela for being a part of this episode of Unattainable Podcast Show 

We dig into what happens when you stop living by default and start building a relationship around honesty, autonomy, and real trust. We talk through sobriety, nonmonogamy, jealousy, cheating, and why “romance” can turn into a contract that quietly eats your values. 
• substance-free pleasure and why curiosity is not a good enough reason 
• microdosing as culture and identity more than proven advantage 
• a committed relationship that is not monogamous and why they avoid labels 
• jealousy as a trigger to study rather than a rule to enforce 
• fairness as the foundation for trust during conflict 
• marriage, personal reinvention, and why some relationships cannot survive change 
• monogamy as sacrifice and the push for individuality inside partnership 
• dominance versus arrogance and how consent changes everything 
• defining cheating as secrecy and bending the agreement 
• staying connected with exes and making living arrangements work 
• Valentine’s Day as performance versus authentic affection 
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Transcript

Pleasure Without Substances

SPEAKER_05 0:00

I enjoy hosting people, learning about them, meeting people that are very different than me, listening to their opinions. I used to be a hundred percent introvert.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

We are partners on our path and if certain desires arise, it's for cultivating a space where there are no restrictions to one's personal license.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Recently we kind of reconnected and Because of a podcast, actually. I don't follow the things that people do up until I separated from my wife. Like my body count was probably four or five, something like that. Um it's five thousand. It's not efficacy based.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

It's really about if you want to make a decision towards having more pleasure in your life or not.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

Love is like very, you know, healthy. You love someone, you care for them. If one says no, and then on top of that, the other, the partner, says, Well, this is important to me, even though you say no. According to this kind of, I guess, paradigm, like that would be okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I have uh full trust in your fairness, which is very helpful. I did only have uh monogamous relationships.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

I consider myself a romantic guy, but sometimes romance is not healthy for us. If you wanna show your love, you must sacrifice your values in sex, for instance. So domination is more physical, right? So in sex, like the the person dominating would be on top is a rumor that I'm FBI. The rumor before that was uh something about me being like a traffic. Will the poison give me a million dollars and I won't be I won't die? Then yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. So I would say no, regardless of it. Like absolute no.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Okay, yeah, I just I don't I don't drink. I've um no drugs, no smoking. And I'm not condoning it, obviously.

SPEAKER_05 2:01

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

You wouldn't be able to convince me anyway.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

But wouldn't even want to try. There's no there's no incentive in me uh like to do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

And then um no caffeine, um, no sodas, no fast food for the past like 15 years, I think. Okay, but those of you at least tried once or sometime. Yeah, like fast food, soda, um, caffeine. Like I had coffee when I was like 21, 20 um uh energy drinks I had up until like 23, 24, I think.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

I used to drink a lot of coffee and I associated with tiredness, so it ended up that coffee now makes me tired. So that then doesn't work anymore.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

And that's pretty much what had happened as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

So it's as little self-destruction for you as possible, and is there an external drive for that to preserve that um sobriety, I guess, and the is it longevity that you're pursuing in Fritz?

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Yeah, I mean it started that way, but it's just uh for me nothing if if something doesn't make logical sense of reasoning, um, then I would look at why are other people doing it. And and when I when I see other people's reasoning of why they're doing it, majority of the time their reasoning is um either pure pressure or um pleasure or pleasure, but not pleasure in a sense of the fact that it is as a result of it um giving natural pressure pleasure, it's it's as a result of their lack of ability to enhance their mind to adapt to the the the setting that they want to be in.

SPEAKER_05 3:33

Yeah, I mean some people may actually be depressed, you know. That's one way. I mean, if they're not, the fact that you never never tried it actually is good because like it's like uh once you once you kind of taste something, now you have the contrast, right? And the contrast in and and relative to the to the substance will make you think that the current state is not as good. Correct. Whereas in your case, you know what's good for real, yeah. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Yeah, that's the example that I always use for people who are like, how do you have fun? Like when you go out, and I'm just like, I don't think you realize I don't know the difference. Yeah, for me for me, there is no alternative. It just has always been my state of mind. So it's like if for for me to teach myself how to have fun, yeah, I had to just adapt my mind to be like, okay, this is the environment, and then you have to figure it out.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

I have a question. Before you die, would you drink? Like, would you try that? No, it's just wouldn't there wouldn't be a reason. You know, tomorrow you're gonna die. Like you're not gonna try to do everything that you haven't tried in life. Like it's not gonna have any consequences.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

But but but consequences is not the reason, right? Like, I'm not doing it because there are consequences. I'm I'm not doing it because I don't believe there is bet there is a benefit. Yeah, it's like it's like it's like if somebody said, Would you try meth? Or like would you try try heroin? Or like would you try uh stabbing yourself with a knife in the heart? Because you know, it's just like the the there's the like to me that those are the equivalent examples.

SPEAKER_05 5:03

But those uh and I don't want to keep you away from this, uh but so tell me to stop whenever you want. Oh no, we're recording, so we're good. Okay, perfect. I love that. Natural. Um would but those things are potentially harmful, right? Um, so if you're about to die tomorrow, there's really no harm. That's why I'm asking.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

The so so so what you just said is like those are potentially harmful, right? Right. There's a there's a long-term harmful, and there's a short-term harmful. Yeah. Which I would argue that this is a short-term harmful. But your argument is that because you're dying, then the short-term harmful would just give you an experience that you've never had before. Without suffering the harm, you know, the harmful effects because you're gonna go anywhere. But the answer to but but the question then would be okay, um, is curiosity worth the thing that you're gonna do? Right? That's really what you're arguing here, is that are you curious enough to do it before you die? Right? And and I would say there are there are a lot of things that I'm curious about, but doesn't justify just because I'm gonna die, doing it would make any sense. And and you know, yeah, and you could go as extreme as like um killing someone, yeah, right? Yeah, and I would never do it, but I'm curious why people who do it and how they feel about doing it, yeah, right, and what the reasoning is on how they feel afterwards. I'm curious about those things. Those are questions in my mind. These are great questions, actually. But why would you not kill? Yeah, but it's just like it doesn't justify the fact that just because I'm gonna die tomorrow, that all of a sudden I'm gonna go around and start shooting a bunch of people.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Because people, even after your death, your family will suffer the consequences. Um, you know, there are there are personal reasons. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

You could come up with a bunch of reasons why, right? But I think at the end of the day, this is this is one of those things that again, the I I don't I just don't have reason. I I was never curious about it. And people participate. This is a good thing, by the way. They're like, Would you ever curious? I'm like, there's nothing for me to be curious about because I see other people, yeah. Right? My curiosity is satisfied. Yeah, I've seen enough people hung over, drunk, throwing up, and even dying as a result of it.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

You've seen the bad effects. Have you ever seen people intoxicated that are uh enjoying themselves and you were like, oh wow, I wonder what that feels like. No, because I have enough fun in order to never ever wondered what uh visualization hallucinations look like, uh how you can, I don't know, uh see uh uh uh noises and hearings. That kind of thing. Like just as a the curiosity to to kind of test out what your capabilities are uh in life, uh it didn't motivate, doesn't attract you, at least personally speaking, uh to partake.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

So um I have a my my first cousin is a Dina Psychology in um in San Francisco, and she I I talked to her about microdosing and um I asked her, I was like, hey, like do you like what do you think about it? Do you think it's like beneficial, blah blah blah? And she was like, well there are studies that like you know helps, etc. etc. And like we went through the um the setup. And she was and I was like, okay, and I and I dove into it and did my research and and one of the things that I realized was that and I and I had this argument with with somebody else that was like I don't see a significant difference in the performance of the people who are microdosing versus the people that don't.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

And that I agree with you actually. Microdosing is a fab.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

It's not efficacy-based, it's really about if you want to make a decision towards having more pleasure in your life or not. And from your point of view, it's either that you do place the value in as many experiences as possible, or you don't. In this case, I think you filter it out per um per its advantages, and it's if it's not advantageous, you do not partake.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

I always compare um uh relationships to drugs, especially when like falling in love, right? When you fall in love, it's almost like you get blind, you get almost addicted to this love. Um so what how do you feel about that? Like, like, do you feel that you don't you see all the relationships that somebody is blinded by love and they just act really stupid uh and not for their you know for their own benefit and they really are almost destroying themselves? Um seeing that, wouldn't I give you the same conclusions that you got from substances?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Sounds like it's not advantageous for you technically.

SPEAKER_05 9:45

And I and I let me let me define the way I say things like in love, I mean like you know, gaga. Sure. Love is like very, you know, healthy. You love someone, you care for them, you can marry them, you can be with them for the rest of your life as soulmate. But I'm specifically talking about in love, you know, when like it's some kind of a vision of a romantic, beautiful thing, you know, the prince and the dragon and the princess, you know.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Yeah. Um it it's interesting you're trying to define that, but I understand what you're saying because I've been there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to make sure. I I've made um the wrong decisions um for the reasoning of I have feelings for this person. And I chose my emotion over my logic, right? And so there is and and and I was always arguing that um the reason why you would do such a thing is because you're counting off account counting on hope to become reality, which is in to some extent could be delusional. Versus saying that if I if I do the logical thing, I for certain know what's supposed to happen. Right. Right. And and and it's and it's interesting because because you know, for as long as humanity existed, right, I think the reason why we grow is as a result of having hope versus the logical things of uh living life. And cope, not coke. Damn it. And of course logic is a is a is a great thing, but I think hope gives you the ability to imagine and dream things that otherwise would be impossible. And is that a good thing? I think it's a great thing. However, I think every person needs to know their line. And sometimes people lose where the line is. And if you do lose where the line is, then you would end up doing things that would be detrimental to your survival or to your ability to um survive uh the the very thing that destroyed you.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Don't lose your line of it.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

So and that is the line between love and in love, right? Right. So there's also a line with substances, you know. Not everybody knows what that line is because they get carried away, just like they get carried away within love, you know. But uh, you know, if you if you have uh a good reasoning skills, which you do obviously, um you know, you can make a point that that can be tried one time, check off, and move on. Don't need to do it ever forever. So no no bad, you know, effect. But at least you have kind of uh had full disclosure, so to speak, of what it is, you know, so you can truly make an uh a subjective opinion if that's something that you don't want.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

Yeah, I unfortunately I not not there hasn't been a single person who's been able to and I sound like I'm trying to like. I get what you're saying. I understand. And and and again, it's just there hasn't been a single person who's been able to um d demonstrate the a plausible reason why what they're doing, whether it's fun or whether it's hallucinating, that would like gave them some sort of a um uh gateway to the future, or whatever it is that you want to say. That and I and there's not a single person who showed me that, and I and I stood there and I looked at them and I was like, you know what, that makes sense. And and and and believe me when I tell you, I've been I've been around all types of people who have done all types of drugs and substance used substances and drank and whatever, and they're just there's just I just haven't been convinced because I look at those people and I look at myself and I look at my life, yeah, and I literally think I I'm just fucking great, and there's no reason for me to do any of this. Sure. You know, so so and and that's not to say say it in a cocky way, because I think some things, some stuff. Yeah, I think it works so off-putting. It works for some I I do think it works for some people, yeah. Right? There is there is there is like I have friends who are very who are who are massive introverts, you know, and and so they drink alcohol to really loosen themselves up and be able to have a conversation with other people. And I totally get this, right? I understand. I just don't have that problem.

SPEAKER_05 14:14

Yeah, I mean it would uh for that example, I guess it would be fine as long as it doesn't conflict with other motives in their life.

SPEAKER_04 14:20

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Which I think majority of the time I've noticed that it does. It does, which is which is the irony in the situation is that like I have friends who wake up the next day and they're like, fuck, I can't do anything.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

We are greedy, you know. People are just we want more, more, more. We don't know what the balance is. We always want to try to pursue happiness, you know.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

Yeah, precisely.

Welcome And Guest Introductions

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Um I'm gonna actually do the intro now. But the credits rolled out. I think I think I think this is a this is a great way to uh obviously begin the conversation. Welcome to Anite and we're glad to have you with us and hope you continue to be a part of our family for the Fort CBL future. And if so, please hit that subscribe button. I am Mohamed Malay here with our great guest. Um please introduce yourselves, where you're from, um, what you do, how old you are, and your relationship.

SPEAKER_05 15:08

Okay. So my I was born in Israel, moved to the States when I was 13, uh against my will, I think, but I'm not sure. Um I lived in New York, I lived in Miami, and now I live in LA. It's been maybe fifth uh 15 years, maybe more that I lived in LA. Uh I'm a surgeon, a spine surgeon. Uh I I think the biggest thing that I can kind of introduce my identity is is that it's very different than it was 10 years ago. Um I kind of followed the I'm gonna make a really long introduction. Do it. Uh I kind of followed the usual standard path, right? Go to school, you know, make good grades, get a good job, and I've done it all, and I succeeded, and I reached the end, so to speak. Um the uh you know, the American dream, so to speak, but it was not really there, not what I expected. I actually didn't feel good about myself at all. Uh so I kind of put everything on hold and did a lot of self-reflection and reprogramming for about five years or so. Um, and then I came out after that five years completely a different person. Looking back at myself before, it was almost laughable. Um so I still do uh my uh practice, I still I still work. Uh I I needed to sustain my finances as well as what I do in life, but I do consider the the more important part of my life is outside of that. I I enjoy hosting um people, learning about them, uh meeting people that are very different than me, listening to their opinions, uh seeing their perspective, uh and also observing how people behave and interact with each other. Uh that is fascinating to me. That's kind of like my passion right now. Um that's who I am right now. I used to be, you're talking about introvert before. I used to be a hundred percent introvert, just like I was very happy being in my room by myself watching TV all day. I probably know every movie there is uh up to a certain year. After that, now I don't actually have any, I almost don't like to watch movies anymore because it takes away my time from doing something which I feel is more important is meeting people. Um and I'm not talking about networking for personal gain, I'm just talking about meeting anyone, anyone that especially a stranger that is very uh that has almost what society uh would uh label as weird or you know shunned from society almost for their crazy ideas. I I like to hear them out because some of them are brilliant and unfortunately they get too much backlash from society. So they kind of you know they get introverted and they don't really share that. Uh it's somewhat of a mutualist mutualistic relationship because they finally get to you know to to expose or vent to somebody who actually wants to hear them out. So and it works so it works well for both of us. Um yeah, that's who I am. Yeah, so sorry for that long one. The more you know, that's what she said.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

And I'm Nella, I'm just a girl. Um I was born in Kazakhstan, the Borat country. Um did move here when I was little, um lived in LA the whole time, kind of grew up in the Western culture, so I do not really identify with the place that I was born at. Um background is in architecture and endear design, but um I kind of got quickly disillusioned with the industry. I don't think uh I chose it for the right reasons at a time. So right now I'm just figuring out where my place in the world is.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Just being awesome. And

Defining Committed Nonmonogamy

SPEAKER_04 19:05

then how old are you?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Twenty-three.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Okay. And which out are you? Fifty. Fifty.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Just as my birthday.

SPEAKER_05 19:10

And you guys' relationship?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:12

Oh yes, we are in a relationship. It's a committed relationship. I wouldn't call it monogamous, but it's a committed relationship. You wouldn't call it monogamous. I would not call it monogamous because we have sex with other people. Okay. But we do it together.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

So you're in a in an Okay, what's the name of that? There's no name for that.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Working, uh there's there's no name. There are working terms that we can say it's not an open relation.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

It's not. No, it's not an open relation.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

And and it's not driven by uh an idea that essentially you just fuck around and go around, but um it it's not about that, more so we are partners on our path. And if certain desires arise, it's um we're cultivating uh a space where there's there are no restrictions to one's personal license. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

And in that case, if there is a desire, then it would be okay to talk about it and so let's say for the sake of this conversation, there is a guy that comes up to you and hits on you.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Right? And then and then you're like, oh, okay, interesting, interesting. You go and you have a conversation with him, and he says, No. Let's say no. You say no. Yeah. Move on and walk away.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah. Yes. No questions asked. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, um, no question asks uh asked to find that. There will be a conversation. Uh just as a preface, this never happens. I'm actually like I have a such uh a bar in terms of meeting people. So in this case, um like I'm a very, very um assertive in a sense of who I actually enjoy spending time with. So um, but that's just that, but yeah, you can take over.

SPEAKER_05 21:04

Hypothetically, like I said, I wouldn't say no. Uh but it let's say hypothetically, in in this type of a relationship, if one says no, and then on top of that, the other, the partner, uh, says, Well, this is important to me, even though you say no, according to this kind of I guess paradigm, like that would be okay. And if it's not okay to the person that said no, and and the person that kind of had the heat of the moment and wanted to do it, if it's not okay for the person that said no, that's his or her problem to deal with, and they have to make a decision. Is there something to continue, or is there something to, you know, change the the the the the rules of the game or or just completely break up? It only works if both parties understand that the individuality is also an Important uh as well as the relationship. The both of them have to be in balance. Um, if it's tilting towards a relationship and there's personal sacrifices, well, that's just a regular relationship that we see all around, right? The monogamous relationship.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Uh tends to lead to resentment a lot of times.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

Yeah, and if it's if it's the other way around, then that's just being single.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

So okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

This is interesting. There's a there's a lot of questions that I want to kind of like go to. I want to um find which one is the the the most ideal way to go there. But before I go there, there's another question. Well, because there's just multiple ways the and I don't want to forget. Okay. So so okay, let's reverse the situation. Have you ever been in a situation where you wanted to you had a girl that you wanted to have sex with, for example. Yeah. And then you brought her uh to her attention and and she said no. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Um, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

Yeah, but um is there so the question is yes, the question is why did you say no? And and then tell me what happened. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I said no, and it is um it is um what do you call that a dynamic thing, right? Because the relationship and where I stand and where he stands uh evolves as we gain more experience and uh in it for me, it is a first experience like that. Initially, um I would say no. Well, I would feel personally threatened, I would feel that again the relationship is at stake, I would feel jealousy, like plain and simple things. And even though we did play around with a lot of girls and a lot of uh like there there essentially was uh no bounds in terms of sexual experimentation, certain girls did trigger me more than um others. And in that case, yes, I would have uh more of a reaction, and um there were uh situational circumstances where maybe like, oh, this is different because you paid like more attention to her, or because you uh spent a little bit more time with her, or because I think the way she carries herself, uh she's trying to make a fool of you, and I don't like uh that she has uh this thing over you. And many things came in play. And um, as time goes, the sensitivity to that um, of course, I think is coming down, as well as just as I begin to understand myself more and where uh all these things stemming from and going back to the general paradigm, it's um you're starting to trust the relationship more and not feeling insecure about it. I I think, yeah. Um we we may return to that because it's um again, it it it's a living thing and can be talked about from from many different ways. But essentially, um the no was stemming from being triggered.

Jealousy Triggers And Trust

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Simple.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Okay. And how long have you guys been together?

SPEAKER_05 25:09

Um more than a half year since November. No, actually not that long, November. Yeah. Yeah. We actually met a very long time ago. Um how long about three years ago, something like that? Yeah, I think we met at LAB and we went over there together. I hardly even saw her. Uh, she was with uh these girls that I know. She was uh one of their friends. And actually, when we came back, is when I actually got to, you know, actually have you know, a good conversation with her, and I was like, holy fuck, this girl is smart, you know. She's so young, but so smart, because at that time you must have been 20. So I was I was with another uh girlfriend at the time, and uh I remember like that she really was impressive, uh her brain was was really impressive, and uh and that's it. And then I probably saw her once a year when she came over for my birthday, um, and then uh recently we kind of uh uh reconnected and because of a podcast, actually. And uh really quickly we you know bonded and you know we really enjoyed spending time together. And of course there's that mental connection that we have, um, but that's not enough for romance, right? Like you can just be friends with a mental connection, so it was more than that. Um and I feel like my you know I feel like I I personally have a very I don't follow the things that people do. I don't look at other people and kind of assimilate. I question everything that people do, including myself. So I prefer this system and I am fair about it. I I try to be fair, but if if I'm not fair about it, it's it's just being like an asshole. Just an egocentric thing, or I just want to have all the power, you know, it's not fair. Um, and I think that she noticed that in me, and and of course, with time you see that that person is has your back even in a conflict. So that person is not kind of taking their side, they're taking both sides, and that's what I try to do. I question myself, am I wrong about this? Uh and I'm I'm I'm hard on myself, you know, when it comes to that. I I don't take advantage of it. If I did, this whole trust thing is down the drain, right? So it wouldn't serve me. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

I have uh full trust in your fairness, which is very helpful in terms of if there is a there's a conversation and if there is um something that we're gonna have to fairness.

SPEAKER_05 27:59

I thought fairness.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Oh of of your judgment and of your fairness, because uh as you said, it's not um in the case of a conflict, it's not like pulling the blanket towards one or the other side, like towards one's egos. Uh I know that whatever it is that we are working through is not coming from a place of uh Moshe just trying to defend himself for the sake of defending himself, and the same I hope applies to me. It is really figuring out where the truth lies, detached from who we are as people, just really arriving together at a point that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 28:35

There will be situations in which she wouldn't even that I felt like she was being unfair to herself. I would benefit from it, but she would not, and she agrees to it, and I don't allow her to do that. And I, you know, so there's been situations like that where you know I actually go out of my way to make sure that the pendulum doesn't swing one way. Does I don't want it to swing my way and it shouldn't swing to her way. It should be a very balanced relationship, otherwise the whole thing doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

Uh have how many relationships have you been in?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Um at least three serious yes. 3,500 to be exact. Three serious ones, you want to say? How long were they? Um a year at least.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

And then what was your how long was your latest relationship before you started this one?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Two years.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Okay. So you were 21 during your last relationship?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Um 2024, I was Yeah. 21. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

So and then that was one year.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

That was no um basically my latest relationship, most recent one, we began dating in January 2024, and it ended in November 2025.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

So Okay, so it's been a year since your last relationship then.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

No, um year and a half-ish. Or yeah, year and November 2025 was uh half a year ago.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

November. Oh. Yeah. Wait, right. You started this relationship November 2025.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Correct. So that one ended and got it.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

So then right after when you ended that relationship, you went into this one.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

It was uh it was, yeah, a transition. Not immediately.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

It's not like right after I broke up, uh we still did deal the next day, but three hours. Um okay. So but but arguably there wasn't any uh significant amount of time in between. So and that was for a year.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

And then uh that most recent one was two years.

SPEAKER_04 30:47

Two years. Yeah. Got it. So so twenty-this until twenty-five, you had that relationship. And you were 20 um you're 23 now. So you were 21 up until 23, you had that relationship at that point. And then and then you had two more relationships before that. And all of those these relationships prior to this were monogamous. Yes. Okay. Um what was your reaction? Okay, uh tell me how how the conversation came up when you guys decided to make it um official.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Um, it wasn't a specific point in time where we sat down and decided to sort of seal that, but it was again an evolving conversation that would naturally come up because um as we started spending more time together, um the um natural way of things of just uh growing closer to each other, um we would yeah, simply spend more time in each other's company, and while you do that through conversation, you sort of feeling out and and confessing halfway how you feel um about each other. And it was a topic that would come up almost all the time, and because relationships are just in general fun to talk about. Sure. Um so yeah, it wasn't like a a certain point that um I think began that, but uh But at some point you recognize that he is looking for a Oh I knew that right from the there was no mystery about that.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Absolutely What made you consider it?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Uh because I was interested in it myself. Um I I did only have uh monogamous relationships, and I don't want to say against my will, obviously no, but it also um it was a result of the fact that that's just the most common uh way to do things, and it's uh just the people that I happen to have been in relationship with and to uh have been in love with, they were um into monogamy. So and if any of them you know were to experiment more, perhaps I would have that experience later, uh earlier rather, but I didn't. So personally, I just um I felt very um emancipated, I want to say sexually, and very interested in trying and acquiring different experiences, which is why in this case um I was just excited.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

Got it. And Moshe,

From Marriage To Reinvention

SPEAKER_04 33:20

how many relationships have you been in?

SPEAKER_05 33:22

Um monogamous ones or just a gender ship? Okay, so I'll just go through them. Uh in college, I was in that was my first relationship. It lasted for five years, uh, maybe four years. Um, and then I was in, I wouldn't even call them relationships. Um, and then I got married. Uh, and I was married for 17 years. After that, I was in uh not well, it was uh I would call this the same kind of committed relationship I have with Nella. Uh and that lasted for two and a half years. Uh then I was in really fucked up two very short-term, I would wouldn't even call them healthy relationships. I didn't know what that was. Not even worth almost mentioning. Um, and then and then they they weren't they were really short-lived. So and then and then Nella. Um, so up until I separated from my wife, uh like my body count was probably four or five, something like that. Um now it's five thousand. You actually know your body count? Lost got it. Yeah. So plus it doesn't really matter to me, so it's not something I, you know, like like I need to kind of keep a tally of.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

It's the pie number, it's infinite.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

It's funny. The uh why why did your marriage end?

SPEAKER_05 34:49

Oh, um, so remember I was saying earlier how I I something was off with the way I saw things uh back in the day when you know uh I was uh I pretty much got everything that everybody kind of look looks for uh in this world, uh at least in this you know capitalistic you know society. Um and but something wasn't right, like I wasn't happy. So when I changed, uh after I changed, I was still very interested in continuing the marriage, but because of my difference, uh I don't think that my wife appreciated that much because she was not very uh okay with the change. Uh she hadn't changed using it. Right, and and I was too um, let's call it flexible. And I'm not talking about sexually at all. I was it was still monogamous the whole time. Um never cheated on her. Uh and she didn't cheat on me. It was not having nothing to do with sex at all. It had to do with more uh freedom of choice, you know, of of any everyday stuff. And you know, we we tried for a few years, you know, to make it work because we both wanted it to work. We we were the best friends, and uh um, but sometimes it's just if you need you need to wave the white flag at some point, and it was just not healthy for us to be together considering how much we failed at reconciling. Uh so you know, neither neither one of us wanted to kind of call the time of death. So so I I had like I needed to pull the trigger, even though I didn't want to be the one. Um, I pulled the trigger, and whether she knows it or not, I did it for, and this is not just a narrative I'm telling myself. I truly did it for myself, for my kid, and for my ex.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

You think if you could go back in time that there was a way you could have fixed and made it work? No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

We did everything possible.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

This is an interesting concept to me because how old were you when the change started?

SPEAKER_05 37:00

It was about, I would say, 10 years ago, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

Okay, so you're 40 years old.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

I'm 50. No, at that point. Oh, oh, at that point? Yeah, I was about 40.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

I don't yeah, not exact, but about yeah, sure. Um and how how old was your child? Oh, she wasn't born yet. Oh, when the change started. She wasn't born yet. Correct.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

We weren't even pregnant.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Okay, and then and then when you got divorced, how old was uh she was about four years old. Got it. Um, so when the when do you remember the exact time when the change started to take place?

SPEAKER_05 37:38

Well, it's a transition over a a span of five years. So uh I remember that it was starting like very in a very subtle way uh right from the beginning, and that's kind of what motivated me to continue with it because I like the direction it was going. But that transition, kind of like growing older, right? Like you see yourself in the mirror every day, you don't see yourself getting old. But if you all of a sudden uh see uh or a friend of yours that hasn't seen you for like a year, like, dude, you got old, you know. So, like that interval of five years, four or five years, um that was very, very noticeable. Anybody that I was uh close with back then would not really uh if they were blind, would not really recognize me.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

Do you think that there's there's this concept, right? Like during marriage, especially marriage, marriages um of our parents or like grandparents, right? Um the concept of till death do us part. Sure. And is and it's a very interesting uh concept to me because um I don't believe that it's realistic.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

I wish it was, right? But maybe sometimes it is, but we shouldn't hold on to it if it's not working.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

It's based on religion.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

Sure. It's also based based on romance, I would say. And I I consider myself a romantic guy, but sometimes romance is not healthy for us.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Same as me, but also the the idea for um getting married because of romantic love is only it is as young as 200 years old. People were not getting married for love before that, a few even a few centuries ago. So just the premise till death do us part is a consequence of religious institutions.

SPEAKER_05 39:27

I see. Yeah, because you are specifically talking about marriage, not just long-term relationships.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

Yeah. Correct. Because so so I've had this conversation with my with my wife with regards to um changing. And uh, you know, one of the things that that sometimes people argue is my my wife is young, so we have a 17-year age gap, and people would say things like, uh, you know, she's so young she's gonna change. And I always argue that you can't you can't really predict when somebody changes. Because you could be, in your example, 40 years old and change. I know that from firsthand experience. Exactly. You know, you could be 35 years old and change, you could be 30 years old and change, you could be 70 years old and change, yeah, and all of a sudden the person that you were compatible with becomes fully incompatible. And and and and and what's what's interesting to me is that um I always try to figure out if there is a way to see that coming. Right? What do you mean? Is is there a way for your partner to recognize that there is a change coming? Did you feel like that there was a there was a point in time that something happened that sort of um uh uh jump started this change as opposed to it just gradually small little things?

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Well, I mean, of course, there's always some kind of a trigger, but the trigger had nothing to do with our relationship. It was more about how of course I saw life in general. Yeah, the purpose of life, that kind of thing. It had I I still love my wife in a way. I still do love my ex. Sure. Um, and I try to be friends with her as much as she will allow me. Um, but you know, it takes two to tango.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Um I'm assuming she doesn't because she's resentful.

SPEAKER_05 41:22

She she she rationally speaking, she wants to. She is not very uh capable, but she tries, and I respect her for that, of of of um of knowing how she feels and and admitting admitting at to herself. Yeah. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Um and presumably you believe that you're a better person than you were before the change. A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

And at what point did

Why Monogamy Feels Like Sacrifice

SPEAKER_05 41:58

you decide that monogamy no longer worked for you? Oh, interesting question. It wasn't during the marriage, it was uh towards the end of my uh uh the next relationship I had, that one that was two and a half years, it started off uh monogamous, but we always kind of had an understanding of that kind of uh almost contract, right? That individuality should not suffer for it. Uh, even though there was no intention of doing anything outside of monogamy, um I realized like you know, halfway through that relationship, that I went straight from my entire life from one relationship to another. Never really uh got to be single. Now, I do have a preference for partnership, I enjoy it. Um, and I at that time at least I wasn't even sexual. Um and I couldn't allow myself, rationally speaking, to not expose myself so I can make an informed decision about what is it like to have sex for no reason, you know?

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Bachelorhood.

SPEAKER_05 43:09

That's something that I just didn't have much experience with. And and that's something that was very important to my individuality and had nothing to do with a sexual drive, at least not in the beginning. Later on, I kind of solidified my my this concept that hey now I I do like it, sure, I can stop doing I'm I'm not you know uh uh some kind of a sexual deviant that uh that's impossible for me. I can definitely do monogamy. I choose not to.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Yeah, I choose not to because I don't I don't want to follow a path in which uh my partner and I are following uh cultural rules, and then and that cultural rule is almost show me you love me. By sacrificing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

That's the ultimate sacrifice that Thears is through. Like that should not exist.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

You should just give your love, and hopefully, that person that receives it would appreciate it so much that to them it wouldn't nothing would be a sacrifice. They would love your presence next to them, and that's what love should be.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Continuously keeping it together.

SPEAKER_05 44:28

It should not be uh contract or demand or it should be natural, it should be coming from the receiving end. The person that wants to give a gift, like does it shouldn't be asked to give a gift, he should do it out of their own, you know, uh voluntary conscious decision because they want to. And the other person cannot be like, Why don't you give me a gift for my birthday? No, it doesn't work that way. If that person truly loved you, they will give you a gift, and it's simple as that. And you don't get it any if you don't like it, then then you just don't see eye to eye, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:02

Sure. I I I think there's a level of um understanding the person's love languages, and I think uh it it sometimes people just don't know, right? Like if I like okay, good example. Like my love, my my wife loves flowers, she's just like flowers, flowers, flowers, flowers, flowers. I think that those flowers are useless and pointless, right? I I just for me, it's just like it's like it has no value. If somebody gave me flowers, I'd be like, what like you don't know who I am. I know we're right. Yeah. And so it it's you know, and one of the things that I've always struggled with is to try to put value in the thing that I find zero value in where somebody else finds value in. So the value is in the receiver, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So so I think in that in that sense is is this this room that we have to give people, which is if they we we have to allow them to not know something, and then once they learn something, if the effort is still zero, then you're like, okay, well, obviously they don't care. Or maybe sometimes people just can't really reprogram themselves quick enough, right? And and so for me, it's like me adding this like okay, once a week you gotta go buy flowers into my schedule. It's like something that I haven't done for the past 37 years of my life.

SPEAKER_05 46:23

It's not that hard, right? Sure, but not asking you to stop like doing something that you love. Let's say she wanted to show your love by stopping this podcast and come home and be with her all the time. Now it's a sacrifice, right? This is not just buying flowers where it does it's not much skin off your back, and you would be very happy to give it to her, and she would love it, and you would be happy that she's smiling, and she would be happy because she will know you love her because you read her love language. But when it becomes unhealthy, is when somebody's demanding or telling you their love language is kind of against your individuality. Sure. And in if you wanna show your love, you must sacrifice your values and a big chunk of your of what you think is important. Now, does that person really love you? You know?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Oh, it's as if they're asking you to submit sacrifice, submit a part of a part of you.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

Yeah, that's not love to ask somebody, that's just lack of confidence. If somebody's asking the partner to show them how much they love them by uh hurting themselves.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Do you which is uh used a very interesting word? Do you think that women should submit to men? No, I I don't. Do you think women should submit to men? Or should we say that? Are you asking should or do?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah. Should um I don't think there's there are any shoulds uh and musts whatsoever that would universally be true. And uh do I think that they should? No, I don't I don't think they should. I don't think that they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_05 48:00

It's uh I don't think they should submit in a sense of sacrifice? No. Not in a sense well that's a sacrifice of you of their you know uh uh self. Like I'm less important than you. That's submitting, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:13

No, obviously they shouldn't. What I'm saying is it also depends on who's asking, if uh it's from a POV of a child in a broken family, and in that case the woman submitting just uh means they're gonna make it to 18. In that case, should or should not. Uh can be argued, yes, okay, she should. It it really depends on a case-by-case basis, generally shouldn't, but some people may say you naturally have a submissive personality. Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Do you naturally have a dominant personality?

SPEAKER_05 48:48

I may appear dominant, but I s I don't think that I actually dominate. I would feel like a bully.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Okay. Do you feel like that he has do you feel like that he is he has a more submissive personality or a dominant personality or just neutral?

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Neutral and fair.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

Okay. Do you find yourself having been with the same type of personalities in the past?

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Okay. Have you ever experienced being with somebody who's very dominant?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

No, I could not.

SPEAKER_05 49:23

You ever have experience with someone who's not dominant? Oh, who is dominant? Well, you said you said that you're not. Not dominant. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm missing that.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Even though I wouldn't classify myself as someone who's aggressive and or dominant and uh, as I just said, leaning towards more neutral or submissive, I cannot stand an arrogant man or a dominative man or someone who just per uh their belief leads life with the notion that they are right and therefore everyone shall follow. I will she will retract.

SPEAKER_05 49:55

It will be like sh like because I I know I could tell by when we first started going out, she was making these like kind of like um uh accent of like uh like a traditional like uh Slavic man who's like uh you you woman, you can you know, like I was joking about it. She was joking about like me men, center of the world or something like that. I couldn't stand that. Yeah, I could tell immediately that that does not work for her, and if anybody ever did that to her, um she will not like it. And why don't you like it? Why would she be able to do it?

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Um I I think I I think a person that carries themselves in such a way is either uninformed, or if they are informed and still foresee to act in such ways, I I I have I want to not have anything to do with that because it is um living a life in a very sheltered almost way where um there's closed-mindedness and it's to a sense being very square because when you don't challenge again yourself and when you are so sure for some reason um that you are right, it really um disseminates everything around that person. They're not striving to learn, they're not open to uh again question their perspectives, they're obviously then not open to even factor in or consider what you have to say or what you have to suggest. And it's just it's um one-way channel, almost. And it's not about growth in that sense. It's it's almost the opposite of growth for me, it's stagnation.

SPEAKER_04 51:40

It it's interesting because I I feel like you're equating dominance to arrogance, ego, and and and and I don't particularly believe that that that they're the same thing. Okay, right? Because you could be a dominant person and allow others to have opinions and hear them out, but at the same time also believe that you're right. Because it it if you're and it's their way or the highway, right? The dominant. Not particularly, it doesn't have to be because dominance doesn't mean that you're you're just taking everybody else's choices away.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

And if you're to define dominance in this case, just so we observe.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

That sounds like very mild dominance. I consider it dominance the ability to make decisions that are as informed as possible, right? Like if a good example of it is if you crossing the street, yes, right, and there are cars coming from your left, and you look to your left, and then you get to the middle of the street, and then there are cars coming from your right, and then you look to your right, and then you cross the street, right? During this process, you believing that you're right to do the thing that you did doesn't make you arrogant, or doesn't make you taking away other people's choices. The reality of it is if you look to your right and then the cars were supposed to come from your right, and then all of a sudden the car came from your left, you'd be like, hey, you were the fucking wrong person in this situation, and I was right because I was passing through doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

And as you were um actually bringing up this example, when you said you believe that you were right, I immediately in my head thought I'm hoping that what I'm doing is going to uh aid me in the survival process while I'm crossing the street, because I I do not in that case believe that I'm right, because it's not whether or not I uh if I do or or if I don't, if some asshole decides decides to like drive down the street on in the wrong lane, I can be right, but he's still gonna ride me over. So and in that case, um I'm always aware of the fact that even though, yeah, there are some rules, the car would be coming from light, the car would be coming from the left. Um, but I cannot be nothing is guaranteed and nothing is certain.

SPEAKER_05 54:03

This this is traffic laws, right? There are rules. There's no there's no there's no subjectivism in it, right? We're talking about a relationship in which one's opinion is more important than another. That's what dominate is. In sex, for instance, domination is more physical, right? Um, so in sex, like the the person dominating would be on top, deciding what f what what uh positions to take, one's pleasure over the other, making sure that the submissive is uh uh feels helpless always, but it's a play, you know, it's it's kind of like a game that has been consented to. In life, though, if that exists, that's like slavery. That should not exist.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

There is there's this concept with women who are submissive where they feel that if they're with a dominant man who they trust that they could just turn off their brain and allow this man to do whatever it is that he thinks is the right thing to do. And that's a choice. Because exactly, but because that is natural to them, sure. Right? And so And there's guys that do that too, the other ones. Of course, no, absolutely, 100%, 100%. But there is but gener generally speaking, that that seems to be more natural for women than it is for men. Now, I bet they differ.

SPEAKER_05 55:30

I would say it's pretty much the same, but but do you think statistically I think women just do it very subtly, you know, women are very good at uh at not making it as raw and obvious as guys do. But I think it's pretty much the same percentage. But you know, who knows? Nobody has really studied this.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

Obviously,

Dominance Myths And Social Roles

SPEAKER_04 55:48

there I I don't think there we would be able to, but but you know, my general sort of sense of uh the the statistics of this, you know, comes from obviously my personal experience. So it's like the number of men that I've met versus the number of women that I've met and how many of these were you know uh telling me that they're more submissive versus them being dominant, for example.

SPEAKER_05 56:10

Usually you probably hang out in a very specific uh kind of family of friends, correct? In your personal life.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Well, not particularly. I mean, I I I meet a lot of people on a regular basis, I mean thousands of people. Do they have a common denominator, so to speak? Not particularly, no. Okay, yeah. Because because especially because I was in nightlife since I was like 20 years old, so I would just meet people from like nightlife is a common denominator, though.

SPEAKER_05 56:35

But there is but but there is Do you know the geeks, the ones that are in academia? Do you have those friends? Do you know, like, I don't know, the the ones in Skid Row that you know the ones I'm talking about? Mafia members. It's easy to say that we have kind of like our sample of very diverse people are uh a good sample of the entire population, but that's I think that's too simplistic to say. We don't really yeah, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

My sample would be I I I would say, you know, obviously like misses like you know, homeless people or like you know, people in the like even like in the military, like I would say like there's a very small percentage of people that are in military that I've met, right? In comparison, like so one day I was like talking to somebody about this. I was like, you know what's interesting? I've never met anybody who was in the FBI, you know, and and in a sense of like I've met people that were in FBI, but like nobody that like I would have a one-on-one conversation.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

Today's your lucky day.

SPEAKER_04 57:29

There's a rumor that I'm FBI. We'll never know.

SPEAKER_05 57:32

Why is that the rumor? It's a funny story. You started it. I didn't realize it, but I guess I I probably started it, but it was a joke. So the the rumor before that was uh something about me being like a sex trafficker, and I was like, it was so ridiculous that I was telling my the person I was with at the time, I was like, you know, people just believe everything, you know. Like, you know, I'm you know, I'm gonna start a rumor about myself. I'm gonna, I'm gonna let me see. I'm gonna tell somebody that I'm an FBI agent, you know, and let's see if that spreads. That one person that I told to somehow obviously was the you know, the beginning of the path that all of a sudden I'm getting phone calls of people asking me about this rumor going around that I'm an FBI agent. Obviously, I said it as a joke. I didn't like it was yeah, it was very obvious I wasn't telling her, hey, go spread this around. It was right, you know. So anyway, so that's like fire.

SPEAKER_04 58:33

That is a similar thing happened to me when I was in middle school. Yeah, because I used to go back and forth to the US when I was a kid, and um somebody, somebody like said something so ridiculous. It was like, Oh, have you ever met Harry Potter? Yeah, and I was just like, I was in the mood of just like being sarcastic with this kid, and I was like, Yeah, he's my cousin. And literally two weeks later, the whole school is like, Oh my god, you know Harry Potter. Can you give me a Hawkboard?

SPEAKER_05 58:59

Did you get ironically he doesn't even live in the US? Did you give him like that dry humor and you never really give him that smile to kind of show him that you're kidding? Or because that would do it. I can blame him for doing that.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

I think it was just one of those reactions of like, I'm just gonna fuck with this kid. Like I I think it was more so I was like, I told him, yeah, thinking that he'll like get that I'm joking, yeah, and then he didn't. And I was just like I'm kind of soaking, but then not realizing he's gonna go and tell everyone. Yeah, so then my best friend's mom calls my mom's asking if it's actually true.

SPEAKER_05 59:36

He says, Give me an autograph.

SPEAKER_04 59:39

So it was just it was so crazy because afterwards everybody started calling me Harry at school.

SPEAKER_05 59:43

So that was when I do the dry human, I do that a lot, and I do it with very extreme kind of jokes. Um, people believe it, and I could see on their face that they believe it. So I just made a rule for myself to always within maybe no more than 30 seconds, you know, put a smile on my face. You know, exactly. Yeah, just to make sure like this doesn't get uh disseminated.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Ease the tension.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

You mentioned that you were in two very um messed up relationships. Yeah. What what happened?

The Hospital Story And Power

SPEAKER_05 1:00:15

Uh very long story, each and every one of them. Um, all right, let's let's go for it. Uh one of them, I wouldn't even call it a relationship, but there was a common denominator to both of them that that they just did not have a good sense of reality versus what is true. Both of them were kind of manifesting their way through life um to a very delusional degree, right? So what happen was um the first one, um, when I first noticed it, like there was a mismatch between, you know, objective things and the way she described them. So, like, uh-oh, I have a problem here because you know, how can you communicate with a person that tells you something that is not true, right? I don't think she meant like harm, like I don't think she was an evil person. I just don't think she understood or realized how bad it can expand and blow up and perhaps even be physically hurting. So anyway, so the first one ended up going to she had she had this uh uh blood in her urine and like stomach aches, and I told her, you know, why don't you go to the emergency room? I told her to go to this particular hospital. She went to the emergency room and she calls me the next day telling me that they want to discharge her. I'm gonna take away all the boring parts, but basically there was a lot of uh disc discrepancies between what the results, the lab results and diagnostics showed, and them just discharging her like that. So I came in and I try to help her. Interestingly enough, um that her own uh ways actually exposed something terrible in that hospital. Uh, long story short, that is actually where the sexual uh trafficking thing came from. To make a long story short, it started with um uh the administration of that hospital telling me that uh I cannot be her doctor, but the reasoning did not make any sense. So at first they said because I'm not the right specialty, but that is not true. Second, they said I cannot treat a family member, but she's not a family member. Then they said they can't I a doctor cannot treat their friend. I'm like, that couldn't possibly be. And I looked at their bylaws and it doesn't say anything like that. So now they're outright lying to me. Now, why do they want me so bad not to be involved? I only realized that later. So going through the medical records, I I realized that it seemed like there was almost like uh some kind of a motivation. Uh, and it's called uh patient dumping. Patient dumping is when a hospital uh would save money by getting rid of a patient that will cost them more money than the insurance will pay. So now this is a theory, right? But that's what it looked like. And the way they were behaving didn't make it look very honest, right? Because when I was, besides the fact that they didn't want me to be the doctor, even when she would ask them to correct mistakes that they wrote in a chart, they were clearly mistakes and conflicting with their other doctors writing things in a chart, they completely refused and ignored her. Anyway, so the reason I'm saying that that relationship was so crazy is because um this lasted for like three days. It escalated to the point that they actually called a social worker because they thought that I was with her, and I guess I was sex trafficking her because she was, you know, she was uh young, beautiful. I'm an old guy. What is this guy? Why is he friends with this, you know, very young, beautiful girl? Oh, that's right, he's a sex trafficker.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

So persistent trying to do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:24

How do you make that, you know, that's that judgment? That's ridiculous. So, anyway, so that didn't work. The social worker, you know, obviously talked to her in private, and like, you know, and then they decided that I was intoxicated, you know. I'm like, oh my god, while that was happening, they literally started changing data. She there was a thing with the urine, like she urine, like the the whole issue was that she was urinating so much, and they actually changed the numbers, they had the number right, and then in front of my eyes, as I'm looking at the computer, they actually the nurse lowered the number just just to make her uh uh uh look like she's okay for discharge. And I was like, you know, I told her, you know, let's just get out of here. Like, this is ridiculous. As we're getting out of here, they wouldn't let us leave all of a sudden. This whole time they want to discharge her, but now they don't want to let us leave because probably because I made a comment of I'm gonna make sure that the world knows about this to the administrator.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

They were blocking the car.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:25

So they, you know, start videoing the whole thing. And during that video, you see, you know, this administrator yelling at the patient, telling her you're not allowed to leave when you want to discharge you properly. She's having a panic attack. She's telling her she doesn't want to stay. They're like, they brought security guards to stop her. Anyway, so my presence allowed her to get the hell out of that place. They came into the elevator with us, they followed us all the way down. Then finally, when we got to the exit of the hospital, I'm like, Jesus Christ, that was fucking Twilight Zone, you know? So we got into the car. We just started driving. And they blocked the exit with the nurses from the floor. They actually came all the way down to block the exit of the car. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, that's ridiculous. And the response was, you try to hit the nurse. And at that point, um, I'm like, these guys are, I mean, it really looked like something from a third world country. You know, I don't know. I don't think even a third world country would do something like that. To me, that looks, it's not evidence, but it just shows the behavior of somebody who's really going out of their way to make sure that I am discredited in one way or another. You know, of course, they took away my privileges from the hospital. But, you know, not that I would ever want to go back there, I never step foot in that hospital ever again. Because they're just, you know, I tried to actually uh file complaints about it to all kinds of um governmental agencies. Government doesn't help. It's a mafia. So yeah, they they are still running the show, you know. So so that's that. But anyway, uh coming out of that, uh um that caused a lot of friction in our relationship because when she would lie, that became a concern to me about what actually happened in that hospital. Did I make right decisions? Because half of my decisions were based on what she told me. So that's how that blew up. Second relationship was it would be difficult for me to say because I don't want to incriminate her. Um, and and that information, I wouldn't be able to tell the story without incriminating her. So you're gonna have to take my word that it was uh that it was not uh a very good relationship. Not for her, not for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:50

Yeah. Um question for both

What Cheating Means To Them

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

of you. We'll begin with you. What do you consider cheating?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Going outside of the trust that you have with the person, going beyond or trying to bend the agreement or essentially betraying the ground that you and your partner stand on and um well hiding it and not uh coming forward with it and yeah, I'm just uh I'm I'm I'm having uh sometimes uh I do pause a little bit together my thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

It's it's interesting to me. Uh-huh. I because obviously you guys' dynamics uh is a little bit different, right? So in a normal relationship, I would say, you know, do you consider flirting cheating?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Which obviously in this particular case is we're talking very literal case of okay. So I know what you're asking right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:56

So so in this particular case, flirting is not cheating, correct? Okay. And then um texting other girls not cheating.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

Well, uh again, with with the preface, um, I I just want to preface that all of these actions and we can say no, they're not cheating, it just you have to factor in that um we are both aware of what's going on. If there is a new element that has been introducted, like if texting girls has been fine this whole time, you carry on texting girls, if all of a sudden um you are going out on two dates this week, and even though you're gonna tell me later, let me know before that now this thing is being introduced uh as a as a new activity, and after we have consensually, you know, talked through that and agreed on that, then so basically the actions are warranted as long as we are on the same page, and to get on the same page, it either has to be already a part of our agreement, something that we have discussed, and if we didn't, then that has to be discussed. And breaking of trust and cheating would be introducing, let's say, this new element or new activity or new action without running it by sort of bending that agreement, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:16

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:17

I'm assuming you agree. Um, I I agree, I would just add that um that cheating is when it's a basically when you're lying. When you're not really hiding something, when you're not sharing it with your partner. So if something, let's say, comes about that that wasn't discussed, right? Um, and you hide it because of your own shame or whatever, um, well, that would be cheating. But if you discuss it, you know, it was like, oh, we didn't really talk about it, but it happened. Let's talk about it now. As long as that person volunteers that information, nobody's gonna insult anybody's intelligence, nobody's gonna disrespect anyone, um, and they're not gonna disrespect the bond that that relationship has. In our relationship, the bond is um is that togetherness, the bond is about trust. Loyalty, the loyalty is in the trust. You know, it's it wouldn't be considered if she, like, I don't know, got drunk and had sex with somebody without telling me. If she volunteers that information immediately after to me, that's not cheating to me. That's actually very respectful.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:32

Interesting. Do you do you agree with the reversal of that statement? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:38

What reversal? Well, if you were to do oh, oh, oh, advice okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Well, yes, such a lawyer. Define, define reversal. Um, at the end of the day, yes, simply put, it's the lack of lying. And if, yes, and um a new element, a factor has been introduced into play, you to um as part as part of the bond and strengthening the bond and the loyalty in that case to the person, you are coming clean with everything that has transpired, and the fact that you're coming back and coming clean and volunteering that information because uh the act itself may have been whatever it may have been driven by, the fact that you are continuing to cultivate that relationship of complete honesty with each other again means you you keep choosing each other and keep uh um walking this path together. So in that sense, um the honesty again is is the foundation.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:37

And and have has any of any of you been ever cheated on?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:43

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:46

I don't think so. Let me think about uh no, I don't think. And presumably you've never cheated. Well technically No, I would say no.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Um I Oh yeah, no for the answer. Uh it once happened on my part, never, never after.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:07

Does he know?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Um I don't know. Actually no.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:11

Let's call him up right now. Would you?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

Um I don't know if I have his number, but let me check.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

Do you do you do are you friends with your um with or do you believe in friendships with people that you've been in relationships with afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Um let's say this with um my most recent ex-boyfriend wouldn't I wouldn't call it friendship, but we are like I can text them and we're gonna be, yeah, polite. And you know, when uh I was moving out and we were figuring out um you know my my stuff and his stuff, and it was it was very like I made sure to get the cleaning into his apartment and ready like it's it it's polite and it's it's good. With with the other axis, considering that uh there was a lot of emotional entanglement on both on both sides, and obviously when when the breakups did happen, uh it wasn't um a very happy event in my life, at least. Um no, I did not stay in contact with them.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:21

Gotcha. What about you? What about me? Cheating? No, the friendship with the people you've been in relationships with. Let's see which ones have been successful at doing the um the marriage for sure. Um the ex-girlfriend for sure. Yep, so yes. Uh actually, even with the first traumatic uh whatever that was, the hospital girl, even her, uh not that I should, it's probably not even healthy for me, but uh like I said, um it's I do see all the good stuff we had too. Otherwise, why was I with her in the first place, right?

Living With An Ex Peacefully

SPEAKER_05 1:14:58

So so I try to give her kind of the benefit of a doubt that she will kind of figure her shit out and and you know understand what actually happened. Um, but so far it doesn't look like it's happening. But yes, I have been maintaining contact with her. The second one was so uh was so uh it went into the the almost the criminal uh level that um there's just no way that that will ever like I wouldn't want to be friends with a person like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

Um and then um I don't know if uh important to mention um one of the exes, we all live together.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:40

Oh, that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:42

I'm sorry, what the the the ex that I was with for two and a half years that uh was after my marriage, uh she lived with us. She's a very good friend. Didn't take it wasn't from the beginning, it took a while.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:00

But let me get this straight. So the okay, so you moved out of your exes and then you moved in with him. Yeah. And was that while you were living with your ex? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:21

Why do you f why do you look so surprised? Because you would think there would be a lot of friction. Correct. Well, I find a lot of pride in myself that and her as well, that there was a. I mean, of course, there were things that we need to talk about, and I also pride myself in good communication, and I want to make sure that both sides are understood. But I'm actually very proud of the of the of that actually exists, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:52

Sure, I think I think there is a level of skill that obviously you're demonstrating to have, which is to navigate um emotional uh um harmony, really.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:02

Sure. It's not that I neither one of us hate each other. Sure, our romantic relationship didn't work out, but that doesn't mean we can't be friends. Um, we still enjoy each other's mentally and and and backing each other up. It's just not romantic. And in a way, sometimes we even share to each other we're almost closer than we were when we were dating, you know, without the sexuality part, without the romance, without the expectation, the jealousy, and all the things that come with you know partnerships when they are not very uh natural.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:41

So the following is not that far-fetched of a question, but I'll ask it anyway. Presumably you guys are not okay. Presumably you guys are not having a sexual uh or she's not sexually involved with you two.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

Oh not regularly, but it's sometimes okay. No, and and not sometimes either. It's just um whatever happens, happens. It's not ruled out.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:10

It's not like yeah, like you know, or whatever the phrase has she has she okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:15

So then she has been involved sexually with you two for the past few months that you guys have been in a in a partnership relationship. Yes. Okay. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I love this. So so I guess my question doesn't go that much to you because I think I I think I understand you. For you, I don't know how to understand myself. I can listen. Reality is ambiguous. Well, for you though, when this was okay, tell me the story. How was it if you if you're able to, I guess tell me how this all came about. The I guess I want to know like how you were comfortable with the situation happening while knowing that they were previously in a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Um I I wanna probably start with saying I was never uncomfortable about it, and I was never uncomfortable with it deeply, at least, um, because I knew Moshe for a few years the same as uh the ex-girlfriend. And if anything, when they were together, it was a union that I would look up to, and um in a lot of ways, if it was exemplary for me, again for like almost a visual board type, like, oh, this is I I hope I'm fortunate. Yeah, fortunate in life where um there is a person, a partner for me that is as uh any as um uh limitless uh I guess in uh in the way they grasp at reality. Well um and going forward, I was aware that they have been broken up when they did break up several times, and by the time when I was moving in, I knew she lived there, and prior to moving in, we actually um had um a nice lunch and a little like catching up because as a person she she's a great person, she's a beautiful person, and um I've maintained contact with even though we were never like girlfriends, girlfriends, but I yeah, I I valued and saw in her that there is there's a lot of experience in life that I was interested in. So by the time that um I was introduced uh to the situation, um, I made sure that she doesn't take it in a way where I'm trying to cross her, where I'm trying to uh do something uh to her that's again unfair or has malicious intent, which it was not about that, and it was driven by just me wanting to uh be with motion, not just to do something bad to her. So the three of us talked before anything has uh anything began, and I made sure to obtain the sort of uh almost blessing from her that if if this will be a situation that is manageable for you and for all of us emotionally, then uh it's okay. And if it's not, let's just try to right here and right now just put it all out there. And that conversation was actually successful. We did revisit that topic maybe a few times, but that conversation was um like frictionless, I want to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:44

Interesting.

LAPD Chopper Bedroom Spotlight

SPEAKER_04 1:21:45

You had mentioned something about um uh LAPD chopper.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

I had a feeling uh that you would want to talk about that. Uh it's a funny story. Uh I love that story. I actually have a video from a surveillance camera that captured it, so it's even funnier to show people. Um basically what happened was um my house also serves as like uh creative space as well as an event place. Um so there were there was no nothing going on in the house at that time. Um I had a date uh that was with me uh in my bedroom, and there was a roommate that was sleeping in a you know room nearby, and somebody called uh the police to report some burglar. For some reason, I guess the burglar wasn't my property, but somebody else was really nice to call the cops to talk about this burglar in my property. But anyway, here I am having sex, but naked with this other girl, but naked, and the room lights up with this like really bright light. And I don't remember my lights being that bright all of a sudden. I thought at first I thought maybe she accidentally hit the switch or something with but but no, it wasn't that, and I'm hearing the chopper, and I'm like, what is this? So I get out of bed, I look through the window, and I see a LAPD chopper with a spotlight, right? And the first thing that came to my mind, he must be just passing through.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:20

But no, he was stationary and he was just shining right into the bedroom. So I thought, well, let's uh like I don't know, I was in a silly mood, so I was like telling the girl, I'm gonna step outside the balcony butt naked, and I'm gonna stand like Superman and we'll see what he does, you know. So I walked out into the balcony and I did that. And he took the spotlight and then he put it on me, probably for good, what would you say? One, two, three five seconds, you know. And I'm just like like this, like I like just didn't move smoking my vape, you know. And eventually I think in my mind, they probably told each other, is he naked? Invading privacy. So, anyway, so they left. Then I get a call from the gate. There's a bunch of cops over there. So uh, so I had to like go up there, but then I I'm still kind of just in my boxes now, barefoot, walking up the driveway to meet them. But then I realized, wait a minute, are they really cops? I don't know. Called 911 myself. Hey, has there been any report of you know burglary? They told me no. So I'm like, then you know what? Can you call the cops? Because there's some people here pretending to be cops. I don't know why I thought that. That was probably fucked up a little bit. Um, anyway, so I go back into the house. I don't go all the way to the gate to greet them because they're like flashing their lights on me. I couldn't really see who they were. And, you know, the way they wanted me to like, you know, I don't know, something I just need to take be careful and you know, do the make the right decisions. Right. I go back home and I tell, you know, the girls what's going on, and then this chopper comes back. Now he's at the motor court shining the light over there. So I had the best idea ever, which never happened. But the idea was I tell the girl, hey, follow me. I'm gonna take my megaphone and I'm gonna go into the motor court and I'm gonna talk to the chopper in the megaphone. As he's talking to me back, we'll have a whole dialogue. Bless you, we'll have a whole dialogue, you know, megaphones. You'll capture on a video, it will be the best video ever. But she was super scared. I was like, no, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want to get in trouble. Come on, like, when do you ever get the chance to do that? So it never happened. Anyway, the I came to the motor court, the uh chopper goes, Hey dude, go to the gate. Those are LAPD. I'm like, okay. So I wave to him and I go up to the gate, I show my license, I tell them I own the place, yeah, and and that's it, and they left. But the video, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:53

Yeah, send me the video.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:54

I can we'll we'll uh add it to the tonic. I can I will.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:59

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:59

That's funny. When you were saying uh I was in a silly mood, and I was thinking, when are you not in a silly mood? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:04

Yeah, that's my benchmark. You have some thoughts about Valentine's Day.

Valentine’s Day Without Performance

SPEAKER_02 1:26:09

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:10

Yeah, Valentine's Day. Why do we celebrate Valentine's Day? Um, so that was that is the day that we kind of picked to show our love to our partners, right? Why? Because we're really busy throughout the year, because what we don't think about our love throughout the year, because what you don't give flowers to your wife throughout the year, you do. Why do we have to follow this random day, not even a random day, a specific day every year to show and express our love? We're not doing it for the love, we're doing it for like to you know, show it on Instagram to show it to other people because other people the next day, what'd you do for Valentine's Day, you know? So that's really why we're doing it. I don't want to take a part in that. And we did have a conversation about it because, you know, it wasn't really her, she didn't see it that way, right? That wasn't my view. And of course, you know, like of course, we were gonna have uh uh differences in values. Actually, that's important because otherwise we would just be clones and boring. Um, so that was something to discuss, uh, you know, and I explained her my position. Um I I don't think there's anything wrong in doing it to celebrate a holiday, but I I I want to not I feel like I I'll betray my myself if I celebrated something just because everybody else is celebrating it and thinking that they're doing it for love and totally not really seeing that they're doing it for that's a bit hypocritical to tell people the next day how their husband uh how romantic he is and what he did for her in Valentine's Day. It's silly. It's like it's a performance, it's not really. I don't want to do performances. I I want to live uh authentically, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:03

And Nelly didn't agree in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

In the beginning, it wasn't apparent to me, but after we did go over it, and I respect that. And I agree with it now.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:17

But before you thought that Valentine's Day it's is supposed to be special for women, or what what what did you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

I was just used to always celebrating it. And I was used to the very um traditional scope of things when it is just like Christmas, just like any other holiday. It is something you celebrate and never question, and you prepare for it and you exchange gifts and like the whole procedure. It was just something that um for me was never again put in a put in a spotlight where I would question it and or I would think for some reason to not celebrate it. And when um I was facing a situation when all of a sudden uh this pattern has been broken, I was taken aback, but then we did discuss interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:06

Why is it that you think this? Because I would just devil's advocate here. I think Mount Tesla is bullshit, but of course uh I I also um want to be myself as an advocate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also want to want to understand where that's coming from because you brought up social media, right? So why not have a special day, but then just not tell the world about it?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:32

Because I don't think that's why people do it. I feel like people do it more because they know it's a part of being in civilization, and they know they'll be asked that question. Um just like if you do a birthday and there's no cake and candles, people will be asking, why not? You know? So I what I just think that that's the cause for a lot of problems in the world. I think that I look at ourselves as as in as the human race as you know, with have seen the movie Idiocracy, you know. I think like that's kind of one of the things that we do. We just follow each other because everybody's doing it, therefore it's right. Um, and and we don't do it with any reason, we just do because everybody else is doing it. It's like like uh blind mice leading the blind, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Somebody came up with it. It's a nice concept, but why does everybody have to play with it? You know, why should it be mandatory, right? Why should a person be reprimanded, not reprimanded, but why in that particular case, when we kind of had this discussion, why was that even a discussion? Like, why would that be considered that I uh don't love her? I didn't forget that it was Valentine's Day, you know, and I I I believe I I made it clear even like a few days earlier, just so it's not a surprise. Um, just uh, you know, because I'm not trying not to hurt anybody, and I do love her, but I want her to understand that my love should be authentic, not because it's a specific day that everybody celebrates. I've I would feel fake.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:27

Yeah, pretty much well, and uh that goes just like it does not mean that um showing affection in any other way or the uh the gestures that are associated with Valentine's Day are out of the question. This is really just a conversation about celebrating on a particular day and engaging in a social social ritual. But if the gesture does feel natural and it's coming from um a place of sincere desire, then it is always expressed and there there is no problem with that. So it's it's just really about the external meaning that's attached to Valentine's.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:06

Yeah, I think a healthy relationship requires like a lot of communication, uh and not just communication, also open-mindedness uh on both sides. Uh if you don't have both sides, then you have somebody dominating, right? Um and as long as you have that, only two choices either you agree, well, you can agree to disagree, or you just this is not how I want it, and I prefer to move on somewhere else. Um that is always a choice. Um but we when we make choices, we nothing is perfectly good and perfectly bad, so we weigh, you know, how much good is it in for me? How much how much do I like this person? How much do I want to be with that person? And what is the shitty things about that person? If the shitty things are low and the good things are high, then it makes sense to stay. But if it's the other way around, or if the person is just a fucking asshole and is making your life like living shit, and there's only one thing you want out of it, it doesn't make sense for anybody to stay. And they should, you know, and everybody should be honest with themselves about you know making that discussion also with themselves. Um it's even helpful to write it down, you know, a list, but you still need to be honest. Pros and cons. Yeah, pros and cons of everything that you don't know how to feel about this. But I wouldn't, I would I don't think that um I think that whatever her decision would be from that day, I would respect it. I never asked her to um believe in my values, but I do need to explain why I have certain directions. Um and that the rest is up, the rest is kind of up to her. The evaluation is on my part because she loves me. I if she does change herself, it should be because she truly understands it, or maybe she can agree to disagree, but at least she knows it's not coming from a bad place.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:12

Yeah. Well, it would either be, yeah, voluntarily if if I understand and I voluntarily decide to take that path, or all of the reasons which again would not just imply sacrifice of uh who I am personally, but would uh signify that this is something again that I agree with in stepping into. So the yeah, the evaluation was uh on my part. So and that's the respect of each other's individuality.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:45

And the love, technically. Yeah. Like it would be more of a natural love, not kind of love that you need to uh uh to be shown because you're not confident in your status in the natural dynamic that you have. The natural dynamic should show the care between each other, and I think just the conversation about this showed that I did care that she does not, you know, misunderstand this that you know of that I'm just being a prick, like that there's a reasoning behind it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:20

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:22

Well, great stuff, even though a lot of people do think I'm a prick. It's never intentional, they just don't understand me.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:32

It happens sometimes. People just have um the wrong impression because there hasn't been enough time in order to um either have the right judgment or they just uh sometimes don't get how other people are different from them. So yeah, thank you so much for your openness and honesty. Absolutely. Nothing but the best. And don't come back ever with your dirty business. Come back anytime. And um I hope that um you both are um successful in in every aspect of life that that you desire. Thank you. Thank you for watching. We'll see you later.