Opposites In Marriage Ft. Kyla - Ep.187

Special thanks to Kyla for being a part of this episode of Unattainable Podcast Show 

We talk with Kyla, a professional political debater, about building a happy marriage with real differences, including politics, faith, and attraction, without turning every disagreement into a power struggle. We dig into separation, trauma, jealousy, and self-loathing, then land on what it takes to choose each other on purpose for years. 
• dating and marriage across political differences by naming core values and irreducible priorities 
• the three relationships in a marriage and what broke during a seven-month separation 
• how shame flips conflict into comfort and why men’s emotions get minimized 
• consent, clear communication, and why “make no’s easy” prevents disaster 
• growing up fundamentalist Christian, losing faith, and rebuilding it after family conflict 
• attraction, “icks”, Tinder reality checks, and why height can be a mindset 
• monogamy boundaries, flirting, open relationships, and defining cheating as sexual intimacy 
• self-loathing, criticism, and the slow buildup of resentment that kills relationships 
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Transcript

Meet Kyla And Her Work

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Kyla from living in Tampa but from Canada originally. I'm a professional political leader. I'm typically close friends with anyone that agrees it with democracy. The best ideas come typically from like uh tension and resistance. We've both had like different issues of like basically baggage from early childhood. If a woman feels emotions, it's more real than if a man does. A lot of men would agree that he should pause to comfort me. Men are very used to accepting like scrapes when it comes to like emotional sensitivity to them. Dating becomes harder for women once they're in like a serious relationship. When people are like, well, what do you personally feel about being gay? I'm like, it's tough because I don't think a lot about it because I'm not gay. Getting catfished is a mindset. Women want to feel smaller.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

But I think smaller is a mindset a little bit. Sexual intimacy. That's like our line for cheating, because we're an alchemist. I think it's very hard to come out of a relationship and actually know like the capital T truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Welcome to Enattainable. Glad to have you with us and hope you continue to be a part of our family for the foreseeable future. And if so, please hit that subscribe button. I am Homemale here with our newest guest, Kyla.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Hey.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Welcome. How are you doing? Please introduce yourself, where you're from, what you do, how old you are, and uh your relationship status.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Kyla from living in Tampa, but from Canada originally. Uh 32 married. Did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Um what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I'm a professional political debater, right, at this point. Okay. I have a company as well that does media stuff, but that's more like behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Okay. So when you say professional political debater, um you get paid debating. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. And okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

So like an influencer, but specifically, I feel like especially as a woman, when you say influencer, everyone assumes you do OnlyFans. So when I say influencer, I mean I do political content, but it's not really ponditry because I don't like have a show where I just sit there and like, here's the news in my opinion. I almost exclusively just debate as content.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Gotcha. How long have you been doing that?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Um, so I've been in content since 2022, but I basically stopped making it for like a year and a half to two years. Um I started working more behind the scenes. There's not a lot of people in content who have professional backgrounds, especially in the streaming space, which is where I dominantly started and mostly operate still in. So um I got a couple of offers to work with different companies and stuff to kind of interface between companies or funders and streamers. So I started just working behind the scenes um and only really started retrying in content like taking more seriously in like September.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Okay. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Of 2024.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Okay, a couple years ago, year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

So the or five, this September, 2025. Sorry, I just forgot which year. Oh, yeah, it's 2026 right now. Got it. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So then um, and you've been married for how long? Eight years. Eight years, okay. And you're 32, you said? Okay. And so you were 24, you got married, and uh what did you have the same

Politics Differences Without Contempt

SPEAKER_00 3:20

views at that point, more or less? Um or have you drastically changed?

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Some are the same and some have changed for sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah. Um, as far as your compatibility with your husband is concerned when it comes to politics?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

He's conservative and I'm a liberal.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Gotcha. Okay. So, which is where I wanted to get to. Um, how do you maintain your relationship being in one that is completely different from your partner?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Um, so first of all, we're Canadian. So a conservative liberal and a conservative, that's Canadian is probably a different than like MAGA conservative now. Okay. Um, so that's probably part of it. But I'm typically close friends with anyone that agrees with democracy. Um, I have lots of philosophical conservative friends and stuff. I don't know, I I'm very big on like um the best ideas come typically from like uh tension and resistance, right? So um me and my husband talk about ideas just all the time and we debate every now and then. Um, but we agree on a lot. And then there's areas I think at this point, being so far into our marriage, when we disagree about something, it's almost exclusively like kind of irreducible prioritizations of certain values, right? He's gonna slightly prioritize other things more than I do as a conservative. And we just kind of see that coming and we're like, yeah, okay, yeah, you're reasonable enough as a conservative, I would expect that conclusion. And he's like, Yeah, reasonable enough as a liberal, I would expect that conclusion. And then most things we're pretty aligned on because a lot of stuff you can just come to from like um shared values. Like the not everything is like this pluralistic battle of values. Usually there's like one or two values at stake there, so it's pretty easy to resolve.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

So once once you recognize that some things are subjective to a point where a person's opinion cannot be changed by an argument.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah, it's like built on like an irreducible foundational like prioritization. Like he values security a lot more, he's a lot more hawkish than I am. So there's some things where he's just gonna be like, yeah, hawk stuff. And I'm like, I'm more dovish on foreign policy. So I think we should try to negotiate more, right? Like on Iran, right? He's gonna be like hawkish on it, and I'm a little bit more like, let's keep trying diplomacy. And he's like, fuck that shit. We did diplomacy. And it's like at that point, it's somewhat irreducible because it's hard to know because we have done diplomacy with Iran and it wasn't working, but it kind of worked, but like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Uh-huh. Okay. So the yeah. I'm I'm trying not to get into the political stuff because then that'll just like open up a whole different can of worms. But uh just just sticking to the relationship aspect of things, then. Um you you guys, so so how old is he? How how how he's 32. He's thirty. So you guys are the same age. So when you were 24, you both got married.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

We're 11 a month apart. So I think actually he's 31 right now. Like he'll be 32 this year. And I I'm in January, he's December, so like 11 months apart.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Oh, so you're older. Yeah. Um, and then how did you guys meet?

Seven Months Apart And Repair

SPEAKER_02 6:19

We met at a high-risk uh youth camp for uh homeless and uh foster care kids. We're both staff.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Okay. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

A Christian camp too. Very wholesome.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Gotcha. Gotcha. And how long did you guys date before you got married?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

A year and a half.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Okay. So you were 22-ish when you started dating. Yeah. And then um you got married a year and a half after, okay. What's what what would you say is like the biggest challenge in your marriage? Um you've had to deal with for the past eight years.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, so the biggest challenge came at about year three, four, year three or four. We actually separated for seven months. Um, and it fundamentally came down to a couple things. We kind of say you've got three relationships in a marriage to take care of. Your relationship with yourself, your partner's relationship to themselves, and then your relationship to each other. And relationships fail. One or two of these three things, or sometimes all three. If it's all three out of three, probably give up on the relationship. But oftentimes, if it's one or two of these things, those have to be corrected before the relationship fixed. So we actually had excellent communication. We had like no problem with that, like those marriage skills of understanding like balance of labor and these sort of things. But we both had like different issues of like basically baggage from early childhood, just like messy stuff that we both on separation recognized was happening. And we like, I think a lot of relationships get into the cycle where like one person's big trigger will trigger the other person's big trigger into like this vicious cycle. So, like in psychology, we often say like an avoidant attacher will always end up in a relationship with an anxious attacher. So the anxious attacher gets clingy and the avoidant avoids, which triggers the clinginess, which triggers the avoiding, which triggers the clinginess, and they they drive each other away. And I think that we had something, it wasn't like an anxious avoidant. Um, I'm not gonna lie, I don't even know if I quite remember what we were doing. Uh, but like there was just this cycle where I was getting increasingly like anxious, insecure, and not recognizing that I had anxiety, and he was getting like frustrated because he was always trying to like take on my stuff. So he kind of was like enabling and really wanting to like take on all of my emotional baggage, and I really kind of hated having that done. Like I felt like belittled all the time. And but it was also undercutting my own like capacity to work through these problems on my on my own, and then he was getting resentful that he was always trying to solve my problems, but I was getting frustrated because I was like, I don't want you to solve my problems. So we were kind of doing this this chase, and so the seven months apart, he could recognize, like, oh, I don't need to like take on everyone's pro like Kyla can be upset and I can be, it's fine. I can just like let her be upset and be with her, but not be upset myself. I don't have to just fix it. Sure. And I it gave me this space to go, I know how to I I can figure out how to like figure out my own problems, and I don't need him to figure out my problems, and it's really important that I don't make him figure out my problems, I have to figure out myself. So that was like a really big enablement and like uh cycle that we had that made us kind of resent each other.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's that's interesting because I had a similar issue with my ex, but the difference was where she was not taking care of her problems. So the problems were just snowballing and and and they weren't being fixed and they weren't being taken care of, so then I would have to at some point do it. Yeah. So it was this challenge of okay, I might as well just get it done sooner rather than later, because later is gonna be worse. Yeah. Um and unfortunately on her end, there was this refusal to to address the fact that she wasn't taking the initiative to take care of the problem. And even if I did allow her theoretically to just do it herself, then she just wouldn't. Yeah. Right. Um which obviously the difference in this situation is you were you actually did try to address those things, and then you were taking care of it yourself and you figured it out yourself, which allowed you to grow.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Well, in many ways, it was funny because I I wasn't a reliant person before our relationship. I actually think because his mom kind of like trained to be such a caretaker, I like fell into a role because I was a very independent, very avoidant, non-clingy person. And then I got into a relationship with my husband and I was like becoming clingy, but I'm not like that in any other relationship. In fact, I'm the opposite. Like, I did I still struggle to be like, I need to communicate this issue to my friend because I know that they would want me to tell them that it's bothered them and like work through it together, not just like cut them out or like just deal with it on my own. So it was a very strange thing where it kind of got built in our relationship, especially because I think he wanted that. Like I think he has, I think a lot of people have this like hero complex and they kind of like teach their partner to rely on them. And then when they get tired of being relied on, at least in the case of his, then he's like, Oh my god, you're so needy. And I was like, What the fuck? I'm not needy, but I had become needy in our relationship exclusively. And so it was this very strange thing where the moment that we got separation, I just like kind of went back to how I was managing before. But then I had to do, we both had to do this recognition and be like, why did that start happening? Right. And so like I had to go, like, oh, actually, I have anxiety, and I didn't realize I had anxiety. So that's something that I was being independent about, but affects my partner no matter what. Like he can't she I can't, he can't shield himself from being impacted by my anxiety if it makes me irritable. Right.

When Her Shame Becomes His Job

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Um, but I also had to do things like um, I had these like I think a lot of women will have this type of sexism towards men and their emotions, where so I was never disgusted by him like being upset or anything like that. But I think a lot of women and men think that if a woman feels emotions, it's more real than if a man does. So say he comes to me and he's like, You're doing this thing that upsets me, whatever. I'm being a bitch in some way. And I start feeling insecure because I don't, I feel ashamed knowing that I'm being a bitch. Suddenly, his being hurt about something I genuinely did that was bitchy, whatever it was, has now turned into him comforting me because I'm feeling ashamed. Right. And I had to go, first of all, oh my god, that's what my mom does. Right, because we do what our parents teach us. But also, secondary, go, but also I'm doing this because I I fundamentally think that my emotions matter more than his because I would never do this with a girlfriend, right? Like I realize I'm like, wait, when my girlfriends bring me things that they're upset with me about, I can just meet them there. It doesn't become about me. But when he does, it uniquely becomes about me because he's a man and I recognize this like sexism that I had towards men and their feelings. And I was like, oh, he can't tell me that he's feeling resentful towards me because I don't make any space for him to do so. Like I really don't. Um, and that was like I think a really, really big breakthrough in like our marriage dynamic. So there was like a lot of stuff during the separation that we kind of figured out, but each of it was like our own separate baggage, and I don't want to talk about like all of his baggage because he's not here to like represent himself. So I'll just stick to mine.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

So but but but you said something very interesting, which was you said you think most women are sexist.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

I think everyone is sexist towards men in this way. Like very few. I mean, I think most people have like scripts and stigmas they attach to you both genders in all ways, but this is a way that I would say I don't think anyone is even aware of this type of sexism. I don't think anyone talks or cares about it. Um I think everyone has this towards men, including men.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

What do you mean including men?

SPEAKER_02 14:02

I think most men would hear that Nick said something that hurt me and I started crying. Nick's my husband, sorry. Right. A lot of men would agree that he should pause to comfort me.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

And we had to realize in our marriage why? When it was his emotions we were talking about first.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Okay. Yeah, I mean, uh obviously I think that that's really depending on what the conversation is, because if I if if we started a conversation with something that was about me and why I'm hurt for something that you did, and then I escalate that argument or conversation, whatever, and and say something hurtful towards you. Sure, yeah. If you do something to hurt me, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

But that's different than me feeling shame about hurting you, which I think happens actually a lot in couples. Gotcha. I find out I hurt your feelings. Now I feel bad that I hurt your feelings. Now you have to comfort me because I hurt your feelings. It's like, wait, hold on. This is about you.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

I hurt your feelings. You shouldn't have to comfort me because I feel bad that I hurt your feelings. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's interesting because you it's it's interesting because I just noticed this. That um I I noticed I I just noticed this happening actually. But I never well, it doesn't rather bother me.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

I don't think it I don't think it bothers most men most of the time. I think it's the lot men accept. I think men are very used to accepting like scrapes when it comes to like emotional sensitivity to them. Um But I think it's something that I've really tried to learn to be sensitive to. Like there's like the classic line of like white women's tears, right? Like they're just super powerful. But they are. They're like, do you play league? Yeah. Okay. It's like the alt, right? Like a white woman's tears is an alt, right? So like I'll even have fights with like my guy friends, and I'll like start tearing up. And then I can see them immediately being like, never mind.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

And I'm like, no, I'm I hurt your feelings. I've I basically tell them, like, ignore my alt. Like, your feelings matter here. I'm just a pussy bitch, which is why I can't stop crying.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

But like, we're keep we're staying focused on your feelings because you're the one hurt in this moment. I'm just crying because I'm like embarrassed, but like, fuck me. Like, I'm the one who was the bitch in the first place. So whatever.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Interesting. Also, I just realized that I misunderstood what you meant when you said do you play league? It's a it's a video game.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. League of Legends, sorry. Gotcha. You're thinking sports. Yes. No, I'm thinking much more than that. I was like, yes. Yeah. That's funny. Increase the autism.

Dating Scripts Sex And Clear No’s

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Um is so so so in that sense, do you think that dating is harder for for men than it is for women?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

I I think this one's uh it depends on the stage. I think dating initially is harder for men by like leagues. But I think dating becomes harder for women once they're in a like a serious relationship. Because I think a lot of men are not socialized sufficiently to be prepared for a relationship a lot of the time. I don't think we raise boys well for the type of relationships that women are distinctly looking for right now in the modern economy. Um so men have to do all the pursuit. Yeah, I would never want to be a man in the like initial stages. They gotta do all the cold approaches, all the warm approaches, all the paying for dates, like they have to throw the net super wide. Um, they have to do all of the like intense pursuit um and be thinking at all times. Like I remember my husband saying like he had this realization when he was like 16 or something. He's like, I could meet my wife anywhere, and I want to be some dumb bum at the grocery store, right? Like, I think in some ways men kind of have to have this mentality of like she could be anywhere at any time, and I have to be ready, right? Which is very intense. Um so I think men have it much more difficult in the beginning intersection. I think women have it a little bit more difficult when we're getting towards the like um later in the relationship, because I think men, men vet once in the relationship, whereas women vet before the relationship, right? So women typically vet their partner by who they go on third, fourth, fifth dates with. But if you've got date five with a girl, it's a pretty high chance she'd just go steady with you, most likely. That is not true with men, right? They'll get to date five, they'll get to two years into a dated relationship and be like, nah, man, I can't marry this girl, right? I think like that's where men typically we see the vetting happening happening. And I think once you're the one being vetted, it's just necessarily more difficult.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Interesting. So you don't think that men already know whether or not they're gonna marry somebody at the first date they meet them? Some do. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Definitely some do. I don't think most do. I think a lot of like men post hoc cope about it and be like, I definitely know. But I think like uh lots of lots of people think they're gonna marry somebody and then it doesn't work out. Um so some men definitely do, especially more experienced men that have dated a fair bit. Um a 19-year-old guy, nah. I feel like every girl he goes, every every first bitch he throws his heart at, he's like, This is my wife, and you're like, nah, she's just some random girl. So yeah, I think that's more of an experience thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Gotcha. Which yeah, makes sense because the more experience, obviously, you have, the more um variables you'd be able to do to gather in order to know whether you're gonna be able to do it. Which flags to look for for you. Um how so how how long were you dating before you got married?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Year and a half.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Okay, so since you were like 20 years old.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

No, no, no. So we were engaged for like three months. Our engagement was like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I I meant I meant were you dating other people before you started dating your husband?

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah, but like barely. I had one like Papua boyfriend that was like big big feelings, but too much religious trauma and autism going on to be serious. He's the only person I've ever slept with, right? So it's like it depends on what you mean by dating. And then I had another boyfriend early on on, but it again wasn't serious. So I was dating, I'd gone on a lot of dates. In fact, I had like after I'd come out of like fundamentalist Christianity land, where if you in Christian fundamentalist land, if you go on, if you express flirtation to somebody, that's basically treated like you're dating, like it's very serious. And if you go for coffee, everyone expects you to get married. So like nobody dates in fundamentalist Christian land, which is very dumb. Um, so when I kind of realized that I actually started going on lots and lots of dates, but it was always first dates, and I was always clear with the first dates of being like, hey, just you know, like I don't sleep on the first date. So if that's what you're looking for, it's not gonna happen. I was very communicative. I also I don't know, I was like I'm just like a girl autist, I guess. I would always like try to pay for 50% because I just like recognized like I'm mostly doing this to like grow myself, like I'm probably not gonna skim it to any of you guys. So yeah. And I went on as many dates as I could. I just like accepted dates. I didn't try to be like overly picky like a lot of girls are, which I'm not saying you can't be picky. Um, I just knew that I needed to experience dating a lot because I was so like repressed and kind of mind fucked from being so fundamentalist and like close-minded for so long.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

It was about 20. When you were going on these dates and there were just one date, was that as a result of you not wanting a second date or as a result of you not wanting to have sex with them?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Most of it was not wanting to have sex with them. Um, because there was a few guys that I went on multiple dates with. Um, so like most of it was not having sex. Usually I just didn't get a text or call back because I wouldn't have sex and wouldn't even kiss them. Like, I just like wasn't super into that. Like, I was be trying to be clear like I'm not really sexually available like at all. I like I was open to the idea that I could meet a guy. On these dates, but like I was still at that time, I was out of fundamentalism, but I didn't even want to have sex until I was married, right? So I was like, I just want to be very upfront with these guys that like I'm gonna be very slow on the intimacy side. Um, and then some of the guys I continued to go on a few dates with, it just like didn't click, um, even though they were cool with like the slowed-down like sexual intimacy stuff. That was like two different guys.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Uh-huh. Why is it that you don't believe in having um sex on a first date?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Um, it's probably hard for me to weigh in now. So at the time, I didn't know yet. I discovered this like two years later. Um, I don't know how intense you want to be. I was actually like systematically sexually abused by my babysitter's older son from like zero to three, and I didn't know this at the time. I just was terrified of touch. Like if people touched me, especially men, I would like have panic attacks, and I didn't understand it. I just thought it was weird. And so that was a big part of it, frankly, is that I was just like terrified of being touched by men. But I didn't know about it because obviously you don't form memories.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Sh how old were you at this point?

SPEAKER_02 23:08

I would have been 21, 20, 20 to 21.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

When this situation happened?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

No, no, no. The raping was like zero to two.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Oh, you got okay, so you got raped between zero to two, which you do not remember.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Correct. I discovered that this was happening because I kept having panic attacks. And when I finally started getting sexually active with my husband, there was like a lot of issues around it, a lot of panic attacks, obviously. I had vaginismus, and when I saw a gynecologist, that's when I was told there is evidence of like scarring and stuff. Oh wow. It was like really, yeah. And so obviously I was like, hmm, well, I didn't do that to myself. So and then I started being like, hey mom, was there any like weird stuff that happened to me when I was a kid? And she's like, Well, you did have this one babysitter that when I came to pick you up early, you were in her son's room and she wasn't home. And I was like, What? And she's like, Yeah, you were seeing them, you were going to them for like I can't remember, like a year or two. And she's like, Yeah, when we were taking you, your brother would always complain and he hated going, and he said he was always sad and then he never got to play with you, and you were always like not getting to play with him. I just like didn't think much of it. Not that I wanted like my poor mother. Um, like she was like, I was checking your diaper, like I was checking to make sure there wasn't any issues, which I can't comment for her either way, but yeah, I I didn't scare myself, so sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

And so at that point when you found this out, how old are you?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

I w had started dating, so 22? I hope the chronic chronology was lining up, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

So you're around 22, you find this out. Is did you ever address this with the babysitter?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

No, I they were so out of my life.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Got it. Yeah, got it.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And he was mentally disabled, like severely, apparently. Okay, like head uh down, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Gotcha, gotcha, okay. Right. So, okay, how have you have you been able to process all this? Now, yes. Okay. So because it's been a decade now.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yes, since I've known about this.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Gotcha. And if you and and I know this is kind of loaded, I suppose, but um if you could give anybody who's gone through similar experiences or somewhat um of similar experience, what would you say as far as processing trauma is concerned?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Um don't let trauma let you make rash decisions. Um like I think some of it led to me like making like rash decisions of like being like mad, like I was mad at God and was like, why wouldn't you protect the sanctity of my body if you've expected me to? Which like made me want to get like into like being more sexually intimate with my husband like sooner than I think we were ready for. Um so like in that way, rash decisions, um, because I just don't think it was good for a relationship. Not because it was like bad that we were having sex necessarily, but because um it's not a good that's not a good reason to get into sex is like because you're mad at God about like childhood abuse. Um and I think just like go slow, let yourself like experience all the emotions, but really have it in your mind that like you uh can overcome it. Like that's just reality, like all the panic attacks that are gonna start happening, like all the sequelae that I had as a result of this early childhood trauma. A it was very in, it was enlightening in some ways. Like there was a relief when I realized that this has happened. I was like, oh, I'm not weird. Well, I am weird, but I'm weird for a reason. Like most girls don't cry if a guy like brushes their knee. But I remember like crying in like grade eight because a guy's like knee brushed me, right? And like had to like run to the bathroom and stuff. And it's like, that's weird, like that's a weird reaction, but I didn't know why that was happening. I I and I was fundamentalist Christian, so I was like, it's probably because sex is evil or something, right? So I just like justified in a really toxic way. Um, but like um luckfully I was with Nick, who was really patient. So if I was like, hey, I'm having a panic attack, can we slow down? He was like, Yeah, of course. What do you need? Um, so finding a really good partner and um kind of just like processing through it, letting yourself feel it, it's gonna like I don't know, it's like grief. Like it's gonna you're gonna think you're over it, and then something about that reality will hit you and it'll suck for a while, and I think you just like have to keep orienting towards like hope and good and letting your body be okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

If you have to choose between being able to remember it and not I'm so blessed that I don't remember it.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yeah, I think it's probably like my body has a lot of like trauma effects, but I don't like live with uh like flashbacks and I've had cli because I've worked in addiction counseling and like with high-risk people and stuff, I've seen people with flashbacks, I don't cover that at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Yeah. Um has so so during the time when you were dating, um when you were saying no to wanting to have sex on a first date, right? Um you mentioned a lot of these people were just like not calling you back or whatever. Was there was there somebody that you spoke with that was trying to convince you to have sex?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Most of them.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Oh really? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

But they were like like they weren't like like it wasn't like rapey, they were just like, but like you'd think about it soon. And I was like, no. And they were like, but like you would though. And I was like, no. But like I'm a pretty disagreeable woman, so I could see that being more intimidating for people who are more agreeable than my personality, but I've got like an autistic dad cop, so I cop dad, so like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

I just was like, no, I'm not planning it actually at all. And so it wasn't a big problem for me.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

It's interesting because I think the challenge is for men, especially when it comes to that, is that there are women who want to be um convinced, for lack of a better word, sort of being um courted and just like, hey, like try to put some effort in, right? Try to make make it seem like it's worth me doing this. Where and that's when it becomes tricky because you never know who's actually telling you no for the sake of it actually being a no versus somebody who's telling you no who wants you to change their mind.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, I mean, my my rule of thumb would be if you're genuinely like a man with autism and you can't, if you because some of the people when they say like no, there's a lot of implied body language clearly communicating, but they're being like, no, right? But if you're somebody who like really struggles with that stuff, I just wouldn't select those partners. Like it's uh it sucks that like that's something that you shouldn't have access to, but I would communicate with people very clearly ahead of time and be like, look, I'm autistic, I can't read this stuff. So if you coyly say things like no, but you mean yes, I'm going with what you say. Because uh nobody wants to be a rapist, right? Um, so it it is very tricky. I wish people were like more explicit, but also all of the neurotypicals, there's a delight and fun to kind of navigating the tension and slight unknowingness of implied stuff, right? And so I think for men there is a certain level of like, I think Nick's rule is he said, make no's really easy, right? Like constantly looking for no cues, and if you're not getting them, like keep going forward slowly, right? So like um, if she's like stiffening up, that's like a pretty clear sign of like something's happening, like probably just slow down, right? Right. Like maybe maybe she's just weird and her stiffening up is actually her saying yes. But if that's the girl, that girl just needs to get better at saying explicitly yes, which I was that girl, right? Because of my trauma history. So I would like get stiff and uncomfortable, and he'd be like, Okay, sorry. So like when me and my husband first kissed, he basically had to go, Do you want me to kiss you or do you not? Because I wouldn't look at him. Like, you know how like when you kiss somebody, you like look at their eye, yeah, their eyes and then their lips and then their eyes and then their lips. I like was so afraid and nervous of it that I like wouldn't look at him, even though I really wanted him to kiss me. And then finally I was like, How come you're not kissing me? And he's like, Do you want me to? And I was like, Yes. And he was like, Oh, okay. Right? So, like, if you're a woman who knows that you maybe don't give obvious implied body language, then the burden is on you to be a little bit more explicit. And in like that would be my view. Um, and so as a man, look for all of the no cues because you don't want a what is it? You get a dissatisfied customer, right? But in this case, the dissatisfied customer feels raped. So look for all of the no cues, and if you're really not sure and she's really hard to read, you probably just need to be explicit and ask. Right. But also try to be more clear with your body language, ladies, or just say, hey, I can't do body language well, but yes, I'm interested. I think the burden should be on both people to communicate and interest.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah. Um, I think one of the issues that I've come across um is sometimes a person also doesn't know what they want and are kind of just like going with the flow of like figuring it out. And that that and that usually happens with more submissive personalities where uh a girl is is on a date or whatever, but isn't certain of like their own values yet, you know, they don't know where their line is, and they're trying to figure that out because of lack of experience. And and and it's and it's kind of hard for the guy to figure out where they need to take it because the comfort level of the person is all over the place, you know. Yeah, so it's it's it's I guess that's what also makes it more challenging in in a dynamic and and that's also another reason why I I hate I personally hated dating because of like that that that just um the the timing of not knowing what the other person is thinking and what their desires are, are they actually comfortable with X, Y, and Z or not?

Fundamentalist Upbringing And Lost Childhood

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah. Um you mentioned something without uh with regards to um Christian fundamentalists, um that's so it you grew up in a family that's like religiously very strict, no Halloween, Harry Potter's banned, uh-huh like very intense, yeah. Uh-huh. How was that like?

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Um, I mean, I my parents came from like the worst circumstances you can think of. Like my parents, so like when I talk about my childhood, I really don't want people to get it twisted that I'm not grateful for my parents um because they had horrific childhoods. I mean, they really did their best to give us something better. Um, my mom would always say, I pray that like my ceiling would be your floor. And I think in a lot of ways they achieve that. It's just sad in some ways because their ceiling wasn't actually that great. Like it sucks being unable to connect with your friends about Halloween, right? It sucks even at being like 32 and people talking about like their Halloween memories. Because let's be frank, like Halloween is like one of the best. I think it's better than Christmas, personally. I've always liked Halloween more. But maybe that's because I never got access to it. But like if it's not the best, it's the second best holiday, right? You get to dress up, you get to do funny things, you get to go out with your friends, you get a fuckload of candy, right? It's just like kid party time. Um and so being barred from that was very um cooling. Like all my friends would think it's weird, even like my Christian friends, because I went to a Christian school for all, but most of them also did Halloween. So it was very um disconnecting. Um, it's very tough to have like three days of your week be committed to church stuff. Um, it limits you on friend time and limits you on school activities, which was really tough. Um, so there's a lot of pieces of like fundamentalist, even like the way that my parents think about finances, both from being, I think, so impoverished in their childhood, but also really big, like Dave Ramsey, like never have debt type people. That it just um there were so many opportunities that we could have just had access to that we just didn't, or fun things we could have had access to that we didn't because it was bad. Like Pokemon was banned in my house, but I was like obsessed with Pokemon. I like I would like sneak out of my house to do Pokemon like crack, like I would like a crack addict on the side of the street, but I'd be like playing my friend's Game Boy, like hiding it from my parents and stuff. Which is like, what a silly thing to have. Like it just creates this weird incentive structure for your kids to like want to lie to you about like stupid, like it's Pokemon, like who cares? Um, but also at the same time, like my parents were doing the best, I think, with like the faculties and the and the parenting that they had access to previously, and kind of having make up a stuff on the fly. And obviously, they thought they were doing best by me because they thought demons were gonna come into the house through portals and fuck up our lives and make us sick.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

So interesting. So then, but but you okay, so you don't believe in those things, but you were still a Christian.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

How does that work?

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Um the the short of it is uh my brother came out gay and I had been going to Bible college. I'm sorry, say that again. My brother came out gay, uh-huh, and he had been working for the church that I was going to Bible college at. So we were like very in the church, and they watched him basically get thrown out by the church in like less than a week. He went from the pastor calling him his son to being told that he's an embarrassment and like not being welcome back. And I was like, wait, this feels strange that all these people that I know of love. So it was very breaking for my faith. Um, and it made me go, like, is any of this real? Because like, say I believe that God is real, but it doesn't seem like it's a God of love. Like if this is how these people act. And uh I I usually say the church almost made me fall away, and evolutionary biology brought me back. But it it's kind of tongue in cheek. I had a personal experience at church on the day where I said, if you don't show up now in a very serious way, I'm out. Um, and the exact explicit thing that I said needed to happen did that was quite remarkable and out of norms for my like typical day experience that made me go, okay, I guess you're real. So for me, frankly, personal experience, um, I think in North America, if you're gonna become a Christian, most people think fundamentally it's gonna be through a personal experience. Which leads to the common question for all the people who go, Well, I prayed for an experience and I didn't have it. I don't have an answer for you, but I'm not trying to convince you to be a Christian. That's why I'm a Christian. That was fundamentally I don't know how not to be.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Um and then I rebuilt my faith from there.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

So I went back to my fundamentals and I asked all of the basic questions. Sorry, I won't being the table. Um, I've asked all the questions and like I've over time kind of re-merged with a f a f Abrahamic Christian Apostles' Creed faith, but it looks it's not fundamentalist anymore, for example.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Gotcha. Yeah. And do you is your brother still religious? No. Okay. And I'm assuming you've had this conversation with him.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah, a little bit. I try to be really gentle because he went through like pretty intense like he went through like conversion therapy. Like he's been pretty abused by the church. Um so I try to be he doesn't need me to sit here and tell him about theology. He needs he needs somebody to like love him in like all the choices and the pathway that he's like on. Um I think fundamentally if he comes back to the faith, that's between like him and God. I think that he could. I don't think there's any issue, but like that that's between him and God. And so we've had these conversations, but I want to be clear, like, none of these conversations are like proselytory. Yeah, because he knows everything. He doesn't need me to tell him about like Job. He doesn't need me to tell him about like Matthew or the gospels. He knows who Jesus is, he was very involved in the church. So I just try to be a good sister.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Just love my brother. Um would you ever date a bisexual man?

Faith After A Brother Comes Out

SPEAKER_02 39:26

I I don't know. I haven't really thought about it because it just isn't relevant to my life.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Um obviously if assuming you are married.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yeah, I know the issue is like a lot of these things when it comes to like what would I personally do, fundamentally like it comes down to like if I experienced it, right? Like, so when people are like, well, what do you personally feel about being gay? I'm like, it's tough because I don't think a lot about it because I'm not gay, right? So I don't like spend a lot of time in the word. I think there's pretty strong theological arguments for why maybe gay isn't being a sin. And I think there's pretty strong arguments for why it could be a sin. And so I err on the side of like probably best between you and God politically, do whatever you want. I don't want the government telling people what to do based on my religion. That's stupid. Um, but I did a bisexual man. I think it would depend on whether or not I finally settle on uh whether I think even though if even if I think being yes, see, now I'm I'm processing live. If I think let's say say I think being gay is a scent, I decide on that personally, and then he's marrying me, then he's not being sinful. So yeah? So yes. Okay, did it. Now I've thought about it. Yes, I would marry a bisexual man. Uh-huh. I don't know if I'd be sexually attracted to him. It's possible. I know some girls get the ick from bisexuality. I've never even thought about it. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

What gives you the ick?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Um lots uh lots of shit. I'm an icked out person, but it's all like stupid shit. This is the problem. Iks are stupid. Like icks are irrational, uh-huh, and I fully accept that they're irrational. Um, so like all of them are like gonna be mean. That's why I hate listing them because every man listens to it and just like deflates slowly over time. It's like, I don't know. Um if he if I have to babysit him in social groups, that's an ick. Not because it's morally bad if you're like introverted or shy. Just don't like it.

SPEAKER_05 41:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

So like if if I'm in a friend group, if I show up to a party, I'm like a big personality. I'm very extroverted. I hate having people attached to my hip. I want to like be able to flow. Gotcha. I want my person that I come to the party with, I want to show up there. I want to hang out with them because we want to hang out. And then if we like get pulled apart, it's totally cool too. And we'll like circle around and check back in and then go the other way and like you know, like just like have a natural flow. I hate being in situations where you bring somebody and you have to stick with that person. Sure. So that would be an ick if I had a partner like that. But again, that doesn't make it bad if you're a person who needs that. I'm just a bitch.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Um, I don't know, obesity. If you're like heavier than me, I get icked out. If you're stupid, like frankly, if I just think you're dumb, uh like poor vocabulary is a bit of an ick for me. But I just want to be clear, icks are icks are irrational, like they're not good. None of these are none of these things that I'm saying are moral claims. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah. Um that's funny. Poor vocabulary. Yeah. That's a stupid ick, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

That's a stupid fucking ick.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Well, I mean, I I understand the the concept where women I mean, which which is which makes sense. You would be naturally more attractive to somebody who shows intelligence rather than not.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Right. And I I don't think that's unreasonable because if I met a girl who's extremely attractive physically, but then isn't able to hold a conversation or just sounds dumb as fuck. Yeah. Right, I'd I'd I'd lose interest as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Yeah, but some people are into that. So I'm gonna yuck people's yum. Like there's some men that seem to like dumb girls, and there's some some girls that seem to not care if like she's got a himbo and power to them. That's just not my thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Uh-huh. Um, you mentioned your ex became gay?

SPEAKER_02 43:04

My ex at 16, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Uh-huh. Yeah. When did when did he become gay?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

He came out when he was 19 or 20, I think. Gosh. He was also raised fundamentalist Christian. Um, and I didn't even know if I liked him because I was so like traumatized and like mentally broken. Everyone in our social group told us that we liked each other, and we're like, okay. And then he tried to hold my hands, and I was like, nope, not feeling this. And I like broke up with him. It was like a four-week relationship.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

That's just the best dating relationship I have, I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

That's funny. Well, when you were dating during the times when we were dating, um, where w were you meeting these people that you were going on dates with?

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Uh, most of them through Tinder, actually. When I was doing like my dating experiment window, that was through Tinder. So, like people I had dated in the past, like I had two boyfriends, so the gay one, the four week boyfriend, and then um another ex that was actually like a genuine relationship. Sort of. Um, those people, one the 16-year-old uh later gay boyfriend was at camp as well because I always worked at camp. Um, and then the other one was at college, and then the rest when I was doing my dating experiment was just through Tinder by and large. But I went on a few dates from guys from college, and then I met Nick pretty soon, so uh camp again.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Did you ever get catfished?

Icks Attraction And Social Energy

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Uh I think getting catfished is a mindset. I assume people lie. Like if you're a dude, assume she's two points less attractive than her photos. Uh-huh. And as a girl, he's not six feet. He's five seven. Just assume that. But also, like, my husband's a short king. I I know mo both of my exes are actually short men.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

But you're also short.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I'm 5'7, so I'm not short. You are 5'7? Yep. Oh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Um I just ever I just have a small bean energy, I guess. Everyone thinks I'm short, but nope I'm 5'7.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I'm tall for a woman. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah. Not super tall, but yeah. So my husband's five's six and a half.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. Interesting. But yeah, I mean, I suppose if you don't mind um height, then then it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

I mean, some girls are I've always thought it was a stupid thing to cut people out. I think you limit your pool a lot by obsessing over a number that you only care about because you're believing the imperial system, anyways. Like, so like people that believe in like do they like the imperial system care a lot about six feet. But if you go to like Europe, they all care about 180 centimeters. It's just like all the shit's stupid.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

It's all made up.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Well, I suppose any form of attraction is, because then I mean it's not any different than you know, wanting somebody who's smart or wanting somebody who has a certain level of income or wanting somebody who has a certain level of um you know the attract uh attractive uh um facial symmetry or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. You know, it it's it's I I think they're all kind of um values that each person has based upon um what makes them tick. So it like to me I I would understand the height thing more so than anything else, just because I think it with women who are submissive, a man who is shorter than than them would make them feel like they're dominant.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah, I think women want to feel smaller, right? But I think smaller is a mindset a little bit. Like there's this weird thing that I'll notice. So most of my girlfriends, for example, they meet Nick. So Nick is this, he's a really thick guy, he's a personal trainer, so he's very buff and like attractive in my mind, obviously. But he's also got this larger-than-life personality, he's very gregarious, he's usually like the glue of any friendship group, he's usually like the charismatic guy, he's the guy that most of the girls have crushes on. Yeah. Um, he's great. And but most of my girlfriends would be like, Oh, it must be so nice, like having a husband who's like six foot. And I'm like, girl, he is five six. Like, you want some cope. And then I'll unironically have other girlfriends being like, Yeah, like it's just tough. Like, my boyfriend's like basically my height.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

And I'll be like, You are five four and he is five ten. Like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 47:27

But he'll be like a quieter, like meeker guy. So I think in many ways, height is a mindset. Like, I I haven't noticed it impact Nick in any way. Like, women are still very attracted to him, they still find him like very gregarious. He's always been very successful with women, and like, in fairness, like he's got a good face card, he's got a handsome face, but he also like has gone out of his way to dress well. He exercises a lot, he takes care of his skin when he started getting acne. Um, he worked a lot. I think my husband said he would cold approach women like every day for like a year straight to just like get over social nerves entirely. Um, because he just thought it was a nerf. And so um part of why he's like so appealing to women is because he figured out what makes you more appealing to women and then he practiced it a bunch over and over and over again. So I do think height affects you, right? If you are 5'4 as a man, you are going to have a worse lot in life. There are some women that just won't look at you, and that and he's experienced with that, right? Like he's met girls his height that just like they only date six foot men and they're really intense about it, and like that just is what it is. And if you're shorter and shorter, it's there's more and more women that will just exclude you. Um, but there are just things you can do. There are women that will still be interested in you, but you just have to be bigger than life in other areas.

Tinder Catfishing And Height Mindset

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Are you guys in a monogamous relationship? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Because for a second I was like, Well, we we're in a monogamous relationship, but we don't like lie to each other about the fact that like A, people continue to find us attractive, and B, we will continue to find other people attractive. We just don't sleep with our people because we're monogamous. Uh-huh. Yeah. So like if girls check him out, I'll be like, you're getting checked out, and he'll be like excited or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

That's uh the what are your thoughts about open relationships?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Um they work for almost no couples, but if you want to try it, I've met one couple that genuinely it works for them, but they're very smart in how they do it. So they open it. If they ever start having marital issues, they completely close it down again. And all of the people that they like mess around with, it's very clear that it's casual. It's never like a boyfriend-girlfriend situation. Um, so I've met like one couple where it genuinely worked, they've been married for like 15 years. Um, and they just go through phases like if they start having more tension in relationship or feeling like they're not spending enough time with each other, they just close it down again. They'll close it for like a year or sometimes and then they reopen it later. But that doesn't work for most couples. Um, and most people that insist that they're opener coping and it's very messy. But again, if you want to do it, like I don't know, power to you, give it a try. Just make sure it's like make sure that the fun that you're gonna have isn't worth the loss of that relationship because it'll damage a lot of relationships.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Irreconcilably sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Do you think that um do you think that it's interesting because if my co-host was here who would have this conversation um about the whole open relationship versus monogamy, but do you think that monogamy is healthy in today's day and age? Uh I think uh Or maybe healthy is not the right word, but it's realistic.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Oh, is it realistic? Yes, but not in the way that most monogamous I I don't think it's realistic long term for the way most monogamous couples work. Because like I said, so like Nick and I are very clear. We like we don't lie to each other. He's going to be attracted to women outside of me. I know that, right? That means he's probably gonna flirt with them. He doesn't buck them, he doesn't sleep with them, and that's like an agreement. But we don't lie about it to the point that like he'll like I'll like see girls on his and I don't give a fuck if he's got like girls on his Instagram. Whatever. He's not fucking them, I don't give a shit. Um, we have an agreement of what our relationship looks like. Um, so I do think monogamy can work. I just think that there's a lot of coping that goes into monogamy. I think there's a lot of like really weird like control behavior around the feared reality that your partner is going to continue to find other people attractive. I think there's a really big lack of trust issue, right? Like a lot of people, they'll hear me like say, like, Nick has women on his phone, or I know that Nick flirts with women, like obviously, right? Like, this is the thing. So do all of you. Every single person getting mad, if you were married, you've probably flirted. If you're a man, you've probably flirted with an attractive woman. If you're a woman, you've definitely flirted with men being married. You just don't go and tell your husband because you think he would get mad at you about it. Nick and I just don't have that dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Give me an example of flirting.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Uh flirting. I don't I don't know. Um people are like tea like teasing and nagging, you guys are like batting and like bumping shoulders and stuff like that. Like, I don't know, flirting. The the way people mean flirting, it just not kissing or holding hands or any sexual intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Okay. Yeah. So like if okay, so would you consider um would you consider the the following sentence flirting? Hey, you look so pretty.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Uh it could be, depending on how it's delivered. If a guy goes like, hey, you look so pretty, and he like kind of like eyes me and like gives me those eyes, yeah, it's flirting.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Okay. But like uh But you're suggesting that that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

But like a man could be like, hey, you look really pretty, and it's like not really flirting, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:35

No, of course.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Okay, so it depends on how it's delivered, but yes, it could be flirting. Yeah, that's fine. I don't have a big deal with it. If a woman did that to Nick, I don't care. I agree, he looks fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Sure, but if Nick is doing that to a woman, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

I don't really care.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Got it. Yeah. Okay, so what do you consider cheating?

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Sexual intimacy. That's like our line for cheating, because we're monogamous. I feel like that makes the most sense.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Gotcha. Yeah. Um, so okay. Interesting. Okay, so I'll I'll I'll uh create a uh storyline, okay. You tell me when cheating happens.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Cheating is gonna be the same. Whatever the couples agreed to is cheating is cheating.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

No, no, I understand. But but in your relationship, okay, in my relationship, yeah. Yeah, I want I want you to tell me when when I've cheated. Okay. And I'm Nick. And so um I have I'm uh a personal um trainer. Yes. And there's this girl that I'm training, and um she's obviously flirting with me, and I'm flirting back, and I'm saying, hey, you look so hot today, blah, blah, blah. Your ass looks great, you know, you're doing great, blah, blah, blah. Uh a couple months goes by. And um, the girl is like, hey, um let's grab like lunch or dinner, let's like hang out. And I say, okay, cool. And I go, we're sitting down, and we're like, Does he ask me first?

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Does he like let me know what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Well, that would be my first question. Does he let me know what's going on? And if he doesn't, why doesn't he?

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Um, because he's he's well I'm uncomfortable saying him because that's this is not him, obviously. No, whatever. This is a hypothetical situation, but yeah. Um so uh yeah, no, the situation is that he he doesn't tell you. And he just he keeps uh that from you because perhaps he is tempted.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Uh that's in the cheating direction. We would have conversation. I wouldn't call it literally cheating, uh-huh. But I like if I if he comes home later.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

But you're very close to the line.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah, like so if he comes home later and he's like, okay, I fucked up, this happened. I would have been like, why didn't you tell me? And if he's like, Well, I was thinking about cheating, then I'd be like, okay, now I don't feel comfortable with this anymore. So we should like talk about it. But like, frankly, like, not quite this exact exact situation, but like there are girls that we are friends with that I know are attracted to Nick that have like asked him to hang out. Um, and he just like communicates with me and goes, How do you feel about that? And we just talk about it. And I go, like, and he's like, Okay, so like say this situation happens and they want to like hang out one-on-one, just watching Netflix in their house. Like, how do you feel about that? And I'm like, it's fine if you guys are like sitting on the couch with space between you, but if she like wants to like roll into you and she's like putting her hand on your thigh, well, now I don't feel quite the same way. Right. And so uh we just would talk about it. That's usually what happens with like when there's weird situations, is we're just like, but one of the benefits is that I think because A, I worked a lot on jealousy stuff because I was very insecure for a while. So like if girls checked out Nick, I would get like jealous. I was like, why am I getting jealous? I agree, he looks fantastic, right? And he's not even he's not even gauging them, he's ignoring them, right? Okay, so I realized that's really silly and just like harmful. And as I've like worked on getting over that to the point where like if a girl comes up to me and is like, I've had girls like be like, Do you want to do a threesome? I like it, it doesn't bother me. I'm just like, yeah, we don't do that, but like it doesn't upset me. And as a result of it, it's so much easier for him and I to communicate and like talk openly about these things, and I think he feels safer too. And as a result, my trust for him has increased.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Why is it that you don't want to have a threesome?

SPEAKER_02 56:15

I don't think I like vaginas at all.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

I don't think I would ever, yeah. I just I yeah, not really into I like I find women attractive, but vaginas kind of gross me out. I'm not gonna lie. I don't know if I'd want to interface with another vagina.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

Yeah. I also don't want to what it know what I think about it spiritually. I haven't like thought about it from a Christian standpoint. I'm like, my knee jerk is probably not allowed, feels like in the direction of sexual sin. Sure. Right. And I haven't looked into a ton, because like frankly, it's like he definitely doesn't want another dick. Okay, that's a no for him because he's like very, very not into dicks. Uh and I'm not super open to vaginas. But like uh I think if it comes relevant to our relationship, we'll probably do a lot of prayer, probably look into our Bible a lot. My suspicion is we'll probably think it's a sin and then we probably won't do it. But if for some reason we decide it's not a sin, then we'd have to talk about it from there. Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh. We have like a really, really open communication about this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

Sure, sure, sure. This is very interesting.

Monogamy Flirting And The Cheating Line

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Um, it's it's very interesting when a um very logical person talks about very illogical things.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Just I'm neurotic as fuck. I just want to be clear. I'm not I'm not special. I'm very neurotic.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Well, sure.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

I just want to be clear. I'm not sp I'm not trying to pretend like I'm the special.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

No, no, no. I'm I'm not I'm not saying that you're pretending to be anything. I I think um I think it's because because to me, the the whole concept of God, right? And and and you I mean for you, you have a very specific explanation for it, which is like you asked for a sign and that sign was given to you, and that was the proof that you you essentially needed. And and and it's hard to argue with that, right? Because it's it's it's purely subjective based upon your experience. People have seen ghosts, right? Yeah, it's like what like I can't tell somebody they didn't see what they thought. No, you didn't actually luck. So so so it's it's I I suppose in that sense it's hard to um to kind of try to argue certain things, especially because it it does become purely faith-based.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

I would argue, so I think yeah, and the Christians are now gonna be like, we're logical. Did you see you said you watched the Andrew Wilson debate? I'm sure you saw me bring up Agrippa's trilemma.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Um I don't know if I particularly remember, but I'm sure it's far enough into to experience it.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

There's this idea, it's Agrippa's or Munchausen's trilemma. It's the same thing. Um, and it basically is this idea that like all systems of justification fail in one of one of three ways, often in three of three ways, which is through infinite regression, dogmatism, or circular reasoning. We don't need to get into it a ton, but essentially, because of my like own pursuit in philosophy, I can actually build a completely logically coherent system that's consistent. I can track it all the way through, I can answer euthanol. Like, because I'm into philosophy, I have answers for all of the logic too. I just because I recognize that fundamentally when we decide whether we're atheist or Christian, it's preference, right? Our like fundamental axioms are kind of preferential. That's why I don't do a ton of like you should be Christian, because I think at that point it's mostly going to be personal experience that like pulls you one way or the other. And so when people go, Well, what do you think I should do if I want to become a Christian? I'm like, probably pray. I don't uh probably pray. Like if you want me to logic you into it, I can I won't actually. I don't feel comfortable doing that, but like, um, yeah. So I just want to be clear. It is, it is metaphysical, it's an unfalsifiable claim. I am engaging in dogmatism. I embrace that. I'm a based giga chat, okay? I own all of my positions. Um, but yes, it is fundamentally um unfalsifiable. I'm doing dogmatism. I would just say to you, you're just doing infinite regression, and that's stupid. It's as stupid as me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

That's funny. Uh what would you say is your biggest red flag about you?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

About me? Um, I mean, I'm a very disagreeable woman. Um, right, like I debate, I debate as a career because my husband was like, we may as well make money from this shit, right? Um, I think a lot of men are like, I really love like fierce, independent, confident women. And it's like, no, you don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

And you shouldn't. Like, not everyone likes that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Like, it's it's a lot. Um, so that's probably the biggest red flag. Like, really gentle men. I've always I had one guy that I was like, we weren't dating, we were like seeing each other for a bit, and I was like, this guy's like too soft and sweet. Like, I would steamroll this motherfucker. Like, that's not a good situation. So yeah, I'm a disagreeable, um, like very type A, very driven woman, which comes with a lot of problems, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Uh what what would you say is your biggest red flag in other people?

Faith Logic And Owning Uncertainty

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Um unwillingness to try.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

To try anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

To try fighting for us. Like I Nick and I, when we got married, I put on his wedding band in the trenches, which is like our kind of like our marriage motto, which is that like I I will be with you in the trenches as long as we're both still fighting. So a guy who will give up when it's tough is like my biggest gonna be my biggest red flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Which I think is is one of the biggest problems in society right now is because people are so um used to the honeymoon phase that as soon as that runs out, they think the relationship has run out.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

I'd argue it doesn't have to run out. I think it's a choice. Like we're best friends. I like I've been away from him since Wednesday, which is like five days. I just desperately want to go home and hang out with him. We're home together all day, every day, all the time, and I just want to be with him more all the time. Um yeah, the idea that the honeymoon phase has to run out is not true. Um I think that's complacent complacentness, and I think that that kills that's like the beginning acid of a relationship. Yeah, he's like my best friend. I always I want to be with him right now. I love him so much. And he feels the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

How do you think you've maintained this sort of prolonged honeymoon phase, so to speak?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

So it was interesting. Um, all this credit goes to Nick. Um, he's just like the wisest guy. But we were dating, it's like uh we were that year and a bit in, and I was moving into that complacent phase. I had a lot of school, I didn't want to spend time with him because I was busy and I had gotten kind of habituated to having him around, and I and he was talking to me. He's like, I just feel like you don't want to like spend as much time with me or not being as intentional. Like, what's going on? And I said to him, I was like, Look, the honeymoon phase always ends. And he goes, Why? And I didn't have an answer. Uh I I guess because I get what bored of you? Like, then why are we still together, right? And I didn't really have a good answer, and I fought him tooth and nail about it for a while, being like, that's just what they say, you know, like basically being like, that's what they say. Um, and then I he just convinced me that like, yeah, it doesn't have to happen. And so then since then, we just I think we just both choose it. We try to be intentional. If we notice that like for some reason we don't want to be around each other, we attend to it and like ask ourselves why, right? And like the way, the degree to which Nick and I want to be together is a lot, but we're like both extroverts, right? So it's like we want to be with people all the time at all times. So I want to be with my favorite person all the time. Obviously, I'm an extrovert. So I can understand different relationships might have different ways that the honeymoon phase looks, where they maybe they need separate times because they're introvert or something. So I don't want to speak my exact situation into other people. But I do think that this idea of like actually enjoying your partner shouldn't fade. Um, we both try to be attractive for each other. It's like something we talk about all the time. Like he'll be like, he's getting a haircut soon. And he wants to know what I think looks good on him. I dyed my hair black because he thought it would look good on me. He was right. Um, you know, we had an awkward conversation two years into our marriage, and he was like, Look, you're getting a little stocky. You need to work out, which was not a fun conversation for him, and it wasn't fun for me, and I was mad and sad and embarrassed, and then I agreed because I was get I was I think it was my heaviest I had ever been. I was like 150 pounds. So I started exercising so I could stay attracted to him, and now it's like a part of my life. So there was just like a lot of intentionality that went into it. And I think we all like start from the precept of like, if I assume that my partner really loves me, then when he's coming to me with things that are of need, I should assume that it's well intentioned. And I might feel some sort of way about it, and maybe it's not well-intentioned, but we should try to interrogate that together. And I just like I think I really trust his character and he really trusts mine. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

Um would do you think why do you think that that people um want to have casual sex right off the bat?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Feels good. Feels good. I think it's a fast dopamine hit that replaces like the emptiness that I think a lot of people feel. Um I think men are horny, quite frankly. And uh mouths and vaginas feel better than hands, typically. Um and if they don't, you're doing it wrong. Um or you've been masturbating too much. Um yeah, it feels good and it's uh it's a replacement. And men are horny, I think are like the really simple ones.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

It's interesting because I implemented this this rule. In um in the beginning of my marriage, or in the beginning of my relationship with my wife, um, when we were dating, which was there's this three-months rule of not having sex. And and and and it's interesting because people think that you have to have sex in order to know whether or not you're compatible sexually with someone. And and I think and I think that concept for the most part, I would say, is is a made up excuse for people to just want to get it over with. Because because sex, just like anything else, could be learned, even if somebody's bad at it. But I think creating an emotional connection with someone in the very beginning of the relationship is a lot more important than the sexual one because the sexual one could just come afterwards, and a lot of the times when you do build an emotional connection with someone, the the sexual connection intensifies as opposed to diminish. Yeah. So um but I think a lot of times for which you're right, I think I think most of the time men who don't want to have that and just you know want to get it over with is because they just aren't particularly interested to have a long-term relationship with the person that they're trying to date. Yeah, and it's just for them, it's just kind of like casual dating and just move on to the next. And it becomes a numbers game. But do you feel like for women has that become the same norm, or do you think that most women are looking for relationships?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

I see a lot of both. Um, yeah, uh, it's tough because obviously I've been married for eight years, so I'm a little bit disconnected from like the average dating woman, and I don't talk to them extensively about it. Um, but when I've watched my friends go through dating, I definitely see when I talk to women, it seems like there are some women that are very casual about sex and they just like sex as an activity. And I think that that's fine. I think if you're that person, you should really make sure to find sociosexual people who really don't get like pussy or dick whipped and it is just casual. Um, I just think for a lot of people, it's not gonna be as casual. Um, and I see a lot of women that feel like having sex early on is the compromise they need to make for a guy that they genuinely want to like potentially explore the relationship with. Like they're I think they're hoping that like their pussy will be so good that he'll just have to date them. Um feels like that happens a lot as well. So I think there's probably both, right? I think most studies show like 10% of the population uh either sex is sapiosexual, so like very hypersexual, very casual about it. They tend to date each other and fuck each other. Um and then the rest of us pleb losers, I think take sex with it a little more seriously or feel more serious. Not take it more seriously, because that sounds moral. Feel more seriously about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

What's the hardest lesson you've uh you had to learn about yourself through your past uh experiences in your relationships?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Um struggling understanding I'm trying to find the language. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm trying to find the language. So I one of my biggest like uh in Christian lands, we would call crosses, like, or areas of sin that I struggle with is and this is gonna sound like I'm a tumbler girl, like romanticizing, and it's not, is self-loathing. So a lot of people are like, oh, she hates herself. Her biggest, like I feel like I'm at like a uh, you know, in a tree being like, my biggest flaw is that I work too hard. Um but it's and I think and I actually think for a while I could cope with the self-loathing because that I like attach like this like humbleness beauty to it to some degree. But as I've been in relationship, I've seen all of the ways that self-loathing. Um and I mean it like a lot of people are like, oh, I hate myself, and then you start talking to them and you're like, these people don't hate themselves, they actually love themselves too much. When I say hate myself, I mean like if I do a good job, to me, it's fluke. And if I do less than like 95%, I'm a failure. And it's like a it's like really hard for me. Like I'm really, really, really self-critical. But also the way that that impacts my relationships means that I'm defensive, right? It's really hard to bring me. It seems counterintuitive because I'm self-loathing, it makes it really hard for me to receive criticism. And I've gotten way, way, way, way better, but especially when I was younger. It's really hard to receive criticism because to me it feels like I'm like, I already don't know how anyone even finds like anything worth. I hate myself so much. I'm in so much like anguish over my dislike for myself. I can't accept another criticism. Like it feels like world-ending to receive another criticism. So you'll actually, I find my biggest sign of true of like genuine self-loathers is like they can't receive criticism a lot of the time because it's like it's like overwhelming. But obviously, that creates a situation where your partner can't ever bring issues to you, your friends can't bring issues to you. It's a huge um burden to bring issues to you. And on top of that, I'm a disagreeable woman, so I'm already like intense, and I'm like, now I'm like, I've not even ever trained for it, but I'm like a pretty standout debater. So imagine fighting me about my problems, right? Like, that's not gonna be fun for anyone, right? Like, I can out debate most people, right? And it's like just because I'm winning doesn't mean I'm wrong. And so I think that creates this really awful sequelae for people to bring problems to me. I think can be really intimidating and tough. And it creates issues where, especially because Nick is a bit of a bottler, he just like never wants to find the right time to talk to me about issues, right? So that's been like again, I don't want to go too much into like all of his stuff, but like that was something he really had to figure out as being like, I have to love her enough to be willing to hurt her. Um, and so yeah, honestly, that's been like my own biggest personal struggle. Um, because it makes it really hard for anyone to bring criticisms, it makes it hard to honestly self-evaluate in a good way or a bad way, right? I simultaneously won't self-advocate for things that I'm good enough for or qualified enough for. I always take business deals that are like so unfair to me. Um, I absolutely let people take advantage of me because I feel like, and I feel mostly gratitude, like I'm like, oh, they're being so nice to me. And Nick will be like, literally, no, they're not, right? But at the flip side, it can make these all all these sorts of problems. So I think, yeah, recognizing that issue and not beautifying it, but recognizing like how it actually hurts people in my life has been really tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

Interesting. Um have you always been like this?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

And as you've grown, you've you're kind of just figuring out your way of hating yourself less.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

Um, yeah, it's kind of like so. It used to be, I used to pray every day that God would change who I was because I hated my personality. Um like so much. Cause I'm like, especially I grew up with like as a millennial, right? So like I grew up when anime wasn't cool, but I was watching like anime and into gaming. Now like stupid Gen Z, it's like all the cool kids are doing that shit. Like, fuck, I got I got ripped out of a generation for sure. But um, yeah, there was just like a lot of stuff I felt shame about, and then I grew up around like just like obnoxious Dutch people, um, and they suck and they didn't like my humor style. Like, I'm like kind of like weird. I make like esoteric, very dry humor, which just didn't click with the group I was around, which is totally fine. Like, just everyone's got different humor, so it just like got very internalized. So a lot of it was like praying that I would be different, and it still like bubbles up now, like I'll have a debate, and if I don't absolutely unquestionably like like basically dominate in the debate, I assume I've failed. Like some of my top debate performances. I literally like called my husband like almost in tears. I was like, I failed, I've wasted $500, and then there'll be like my best debates out there. They're like my two top debates people still cite. I walked out of both of those debates being like, I did a terrible job. So it makes it impossible to self-evaluate. Like I can't, as I'm in the middle of a debate, properly self-assess if I'm doing well or if I need to change something. Because either if I think I'm doing well, I could be wrong because I'm so critical, self-critical of myself that I'm like, don't think you're doing well. What are you doing? That careful, you know, you're never doing well. But also if I think I'm doing bad, I could be doing well. But sometimes when I think I'm doing bad, I am actually doing something incorrect, right? So it's like, it's just like I have like no internal check system to self-evaluate performance, which is like the worst. Yeah, I have to externalize that feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

What's interesting because I was having this conversation with my wife yesterday. She said, um, I said, I said, oh my god, you look so pretty. And she said, No, I don't, but thank you. And I said, Why don't you think you look pretty? And she said, Because I'm not. And I said, I said, okay, well, I think you are. She said, Well, you're my husband. And I said, sure, but other people think you are. And I said, Well, at some point you have to accept the reality that if so many people tell you the same thing, that perhaps they're right and you're wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

So I think it'd be it's it's it's very interesting because I've thank to God, I've never had this issue um of self-doubting, I guess. Well, it's not true. I I've never had the issue of self-doubting to a point of um d talking down to myself um in an unrealistic manner. So like I would, I would like let's say I'm at the gym and I'm being lazy, right? I might tell myself that you're being a piece of shit and you need to get your ass up and like, you know, get going. But it's but it's but but it's realistic. It's never in a sense of I'm doing bad and it's not true. So when I see other people do it to themselves, where the external factors or the external perception is that you are doing so well, right? It's it's it's very interesting because you're saying, like, oh, I don't like I can't tell the difference between when I'm actually saying this to myself and it's actually true versus when I'm just like kind of putting myself down right and it's not realistic. So I and and I'm assuming based upon what you just said, you haven't figured out the answer yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

Not perfectly. Um, I find like obviously being spiritual, when I pray more and pray about this issue more, um, and also of like as a Christian recognize like it, it's actually sin. Like I'm basically telling God that thing you created, by the way, is like just unlovable. And it's like, why are you telling God his like own creation is on like that doesn't really make any sense? I get it uh pride to Christian standards is viewing yourself as anything other than how God views you, right? Um either too high or too low. And yeah, I haven't solved it. Like I've had different dysphorias, like I like my personality now. Um, so that's great. Uh I've never struggled with it in school, but school's more objective, like you get grades. So I know, right? Like I got a 95, yay, got a 85, less yay. Um now it's more applied to like how I manage business debates and some like interpersonal stuff. Like that interpersonal stuff I haven't figured out. And yeah, it's it's it's tough because it's a very high burden to have to externalize self-evaluation to like my partner. Like it's not fair for Nick to have to be my barometer, my own internal barometer of like where I'm at. Um, so yeah, I haven't quite solved that. But usually when my anxiety is doing better, um like when I'm on top of my anxiety and I'm praying more, it's less.

Self-Loathing Marrying Young And Drift

SPEAKER_00 1:19:05

Final question is with regards to the age that you were when you got married. Um, what do you say to people who believe that your um frontal lobe hadn't been developed yet when you guys met? I'm assuming at that time you probably heard some forms of um comments from people saying that it was too early, you shouldn't have gotten married, or it was gonna go to shit. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

Yeah, so I wasn't getting it from Christian land because Christians get married young. Um, my secular friends were shocked. Yeah, they're like, you're really young. I don't know. Maybe it was too young for you. I don't know. We're going strong. Eight years, we have an extremely happy marriage. So like it worked out for us. Uh yeah, lots of young marriages fail. Lots of old marriages fail. I don't know. Um yeah, I don't know, you develop together.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

It's it's interesting. I was I was talking to somebody who was um who's 46, and he was going through this stage of um change in his life. And he said something along the lines of like, yeah, like I was with my wife for like 13 years or 17 years or something like that. And and we got divorced, we had a kid, blah blah blah, and but like I changed so much, and like I just I like the relationship was no longer the same. And um and and and and and it's a very interesting concept because I think outside of the the this this belief system that only change comes when you're young when you realize that older people can also change and marriages could just fall apart as a result of two people changing at any stages of their their life, you've kind of realized that this this whole concept is for the most part bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:03

I think a lot of the reasons people say that their relationships fall apart is cope. Um, and I'm not saying this because I'm saying I have a great marriage and you guys don't say it's cope. I'm saying I think it's very hard to come out of a relationship and actually know like the capital T truth of why it fell apart. Jordan Peterson in his second book actually writes a lot about relationships. And he does actually during our separation, that book was like so valuable for me at least, because he very much has this external look of being like a lot of the things that we blame like as like making marriages fall apart isn't real. It's this other thing. Um, and really try to look for that, right? And this isn't to say that everyone should have my story, right? Like, I think one of the worst things that we do for dating advice is we go, well, this worked for me as a very select individual with very specific types of personalities and preferences, so that will work for you, right? People will be like, Oh, well, I got married at 24. Young marriages are better. And it's like, it worked out for us, might not work out for Jimmy. Like Jimmy might not be ready at 24. We might not have been ready, but it was it worked out okay, right? Um, but I think it's really important. I'm always very worried when people say, but we just changed and just like fell apart. I'm just like, I guess I look at that and I go, why didn't you guys change together? Like, what made it so that you guys it wasn't worth trying to figure out to change together? Like, was the change so important that your partner couldn't come along? It just seems very it seems just so sad to me. It's like you loved each other the whole, I'm assuming for at some point for good reason. Why did that fall apart? And I think when people say like we just drifted apart, it's like they I think I see I see this a lot in like in older couples. They like forget the shadow of like the love that they once felt and they give up on that, and then they say, Well, we just like drifted apart, and they like look at the end point and go, Well, that's why we broke apart. But Jordan Peterson does this really good thing of pointing out, like, in most 30-40-year marriages that fall apart that he sees, the death of that marriage started 15 years ago, right? They just held on for that time. Um, and that makes me very sad. And this isn't to say everyone has to be in a long-term 40-year relationship. Like, some people I think maybe just work better with like 10-year relationships. Like, that's theoretically possible, I have no idea. But I think it's really important that you figure out exactly and precisely why it actually fell apart, or you just carry it into the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:34

Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I say is there's nothing worse than snowball of resentment because that is going to destroy any relationship, regardless of how strong it is. Right. So I think most people just need to figure out their communication, being honest as much as possible, and self-awareness, I think, is is the biggest thing of all. Because if you're not self-aware, it doesn't matter what comes at you, you just you just won't be able to handle it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:09

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right? If you're not self-aware, like some people when their marriages fall apart, I'm shocked they got married, right? I'm like, that relationship was dead on year one of dating. Right. He has just clung to it for a long time because he didn't want to be alone, right? So yeah, I think it's really complicated to know, like, some people like, well, we genuinely drifted apart, and I was right about it. I'm like, I I would just wonder, were you ever like aligned? Or was it like convenient and like you guys clicked? Like, were you ever actually aligned? Like, I think I think don't be so quick, I guess, to assume what killed your relationship. Really look at it. Um, was it your vetting? Did you not vet from the get-go very well? Um, why is change sufficient to destroy something that lasted for so long? That seems strange to me. Unless, like, somebody's like, well, he changed because he like had a schizophrenic episode. And I'm like, Okay, well that's fair, that's different. You know. Um, but yeah, it just seems odd.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

Thank you for coming on the show. Appreciate your inputs and your thoughts and your uh openness and honesty. Yeah. You were great. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks for watching. We'll see you later.