404 - Giving Feedback to Teachers: The End of the Compliment Sandwich

Join us this week on Restart Recharge as we tackle the essential topic of feedback in education with Brooke Conklin, a return guest and one of our very own here at Forward Edge. Brooke, who has helped build and is now leading our certification programs and our Coaching Network. Today she brings her practical experience and insights into how effective feedback can enhance teaching and learning.

In this episode, Brooke shares stories from the field, including a pivotal experience with a fourth-grade team, to illustrate the impact of thoughtful feedback. We discuss how to move beyond simple praise or criticism to foster real growth and development in educators.

We'll delve into strategies that make feedback a powerful tool for improvement, focusing on authenticity, constructive criticism, and the importance of a supportive approach. Brooke offers advice for educators and coaches on how to engage in meaningful feedback conversations that lead to positive changes in the classroom.

Tune in for an insightful discussion filled with real-world advice and strategies that anyone in education can apply. Whether you're giving feedback or receiving it, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways.

The Coaching Habit - Michael Bungay Stanier
The Artisan Teacher: A Field Guide to Skillful Teaching - Mike Rutherford

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@brookeconklin19

Podcast Team
Hosts- Katie  Ritter & Matthäus Huelse
Editing Team- Matthäus Huelse, Jeremy McConnell, Justin Thomas
Social Media/ Promo Team- Alyssa Faubion
Producer- Matthäus Huelse


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Transcript

Matthaeus Huelse: 0:00

Hey there and welcome back to the show. Today we're getting real. We're tackling the tightrope walk that is giving feedback to teachers. You know the drill, you're armed with notes and ready to inspire, but part of you wonders if you're going to elevate the teacher or crush their spirits. We're going to break down what works, what doesn't, and how to make your feedback hit the mark every time. Whether it's using the right words, timing it perfectly, or even bringing other strategies into the mix, we've got you covered. And for those who are new to this or maybe feeling a bit unsure, we are here to navigate these waters together. So grab your notes or just lean back and listen as we dive into the effective feedback and how it shapes our classroom. Back with us today is ever insightful, Brooke Conlin, Assistant Director of Coaching Programs right here at Forward Edge. Brooke has years of experience as an instructional design coach. Now leads our coach certification programs and steers the EDU Coach network. She has not only shared her expertise in Google for education's certified coaching curriculum, but also crafted a curriculum that's reshaping how we support instructional coaches. A champion for professional growth, Brooke has masterminded numerous book studies and continues to mentor instructional coaches fostering a community of continuous learners. Brooke, welcome back to the pod.

Brooke Conklin: 1:18

Hi Matthaeus thanks for having me and thanks for reworking my bio. I would like to highlight the phrase "She has years of experience in the role." let's make sure that no one thinks that I'm like ancient.

Matthaeus Huelse: 1:32

Well in initially it actually had the typo on that said, had year of experience and grammar was.

Brooke Conklin: 1:36

Oh, well, more than one. Less than fifty.

Matthaeus Huelse: 1:39

Yeah, that's where we are. Sweet spot.

Katie Ritter: 1:41

Long time listeners of the pod will recognize Brooke, and we're super excited to have you back on the podcast, sharing your expertise. And, brooke, since last time you've been on the podcast, you've now been working on, certification programs that we're partnering with a few different states. Do you wanna give just a, a quick little summary of that work? That you've been doing because I just, I want our listeners to kind of hear about this additional new insight and perspective that you're bringing to the table here with us on the podcast.

Brooke Conklin: 2:12

Yeah, absolutely. I, I can't believe it's been that long. I feel like so much has happened in a short amount of time. So we, I guess recently, somewhat recently in the last couple years, we've started to expand, beyond supporting coaches through the podcast and through the EDU Coach Network. And we started partnering with state level organizations, in Virginia, Michigan, and Georgia, to offer training, education and connection to their coaches, across the state, to, to help them in their role. So it's been really cool to see and it, it's definitely helped me grow, in my understanding of coaching. Because I think this point you, we've had just shy of 800 coaches go through our certification programs in those three states. So you get to hear from experiences, not only from different coaches, but from different regions and areas supporting different demographics. We've talked to coaches and worked with coaches that are using, so many different coaching models, have different systems for collecting data, have different systems for engaging with teachers. So, just in, in the short amount of time, I really feel like my brain's kind of exploded and just getting to understand all the variations of coaching and, and what coaches do, through these organizations and, and through the certification programs that we have.

Katie Ritter: 3:34

Yeah. Well, thank you and we did have, I know you know this but for our listeners, in case you're tuning in for the first time, or maybe you missed this episode, a few episodes ago we actually had Emily Heller, who is the board chair of VISTI, and Brooke and Emily were, were really instrumental in working together to bring the that first certification program to fruition. So if you're interested in learning more about those programs or how you might be able to help advocate, go back and listen to that episode with Emily Heller. But, wanted you to give you a quick opportunity too, Brooke, because you've just been absolutely fundamental, and crucial to bringing those to life. I'm and excited to hear on this concept of feedback, having to learn how other coaches are giving it, but also giving a lot more of it yourself throughout the portfolio evaluations. Just interested in that perspective that you're gonna bring with us today. So, before I jump into our first question. I'm gonna hopefully not throw you off your game, but, we, I, I just remember we, oh gosh, I don't know when it was, two years ago, year and a half. I just, I remember this somewhat distinct, nothing's that clear in my mind anymore, but I remember this distinct conversation that we had. You were actively coaching at a single school building, elementary school building, and I remember you having this kind of aha about feedback and you really kind of dug in and explored and started reading more resources and trying to understand, giving better feedback. And so if you can also vaguely remember that time.

Brooke Conklin: 5:15

I think, I think I know which one you're talking about, let me know if this isn't what you were thinking. At, at this particular school, I was a new coach. So, I was really just trying to establish, rapport with teachers, build relationships. I wasn't doing much in the, in the realm of offering constructive feedback. I, I was just still trying to get them to like me. So we, i, I was in the teacher lunchroom one day and, and I had been working in the school maybe a couple months. And, , the extent of my conversations with teachers were largely, going in, checking in, clarifying my role, offering praises of, of things that I saw that were going really well. Nothing that would kind of rub anyone the wrong way. And, in, in the lunchroom this particular day, I had this teacher come in and, and she was kind of a hot head in general. There, there wasn't a lot that I think made her happy, but she was venting about a different coach. The math coach. Who, was working newly with the teachers as well. And she said, she's complaining. She said, "The math coach. I don't even know why we're paying her. Why, why are we, we could have hired another specialist teacher. She's not doing anything. She asked if she could come in and observe my class, and I said, sure. She came in, she observed, and all she did was tell me what a nice job I did with X, Y, Z. Why are we paying somebody just to like sing my praises?" And so to me, as a coach that was also in a similar position as the math coach. I found myself kind of thinking about and reflecting on why this interaction went the way that it did. Because I, I don't know that I would've done anything differently if I were the math coach. And, and I had in fact been offering a lot of praise, and, and keeping my feedback pretty positive and, and surface level, because I wasn't quite established in the building yet. And I, I kind of came to understand through reading about feedback and, looking at different examples of feedback and, different scenarios that, feedback really falls. And this is from, oh, what's the book now? I think it's "The Coaching Habit", and I, I'm gonna blank on the author. I know his name is Michael, but he, what was it?"The Coaching Habit." Now I'm having second thoughts. We'll have to clarify in the pod notes, Mike or, Matthaeus, which book I'm talking about?

Katie Ritter: 7:34

Maybe flesh out the thought.

Brooke Conklin: 7:35

Yeah, yeah. I, I read a lot at this time. So they're blurring together. But, this particular author classified feedback as, being one of three types. Praise, which was what myself and the math coach were doing. Coaching, and then evaluation. And so it, it struck me after listening to this teacher kind of vent about the math coach that, the teacher was not seeking praise. The, the teacher didn't want praise from this person. The teacher was expecting coaching. And when the teacher received praise, it made her feel like that was a waste of an interaction, a waste of a time. She didn't see purpose or value in it. So that opened my eyes to start thinking about the relationships that I did have with teachers past and present, and if certain situations or certain relationships were more, or if coaching or evaluation was the type of feedback that those individuals desired. And also made me start to audit how much of my feedback was just purely praise versus like, actually coaching. So I hope that that was the interaction that you were looking for Katie.

Katie Ritter: 8:44

That was exactly the interaction I was thinking of. I love when after working together so long, people start to be able to read your mind, so thank you.

Matthaeus Huelse: 8:53

Did you, did you figure out the book though? Do we know the title?

Brooke Conklin: 8:55

Yes!"Giving Effective Feedback." Yup.

Katie Ritter: 8:57

And I am blanking on the author too, but I believe it's a female.

Matthaeus Huelse: 9:01

Not Michael.

Brooke Conklin: 9:02

I think it is too.

Matthaeus Huelse: 9:03

But giving effective feedback. Yes. I read it on your recommendation, so thank you. I think that's just a really great way to kind of set the stage, because hearing you talk through that thought process and then some of the work that you did with our own team internally at the time, talking through that sort of aha moment thought process of are we just giving praise, I think is where, potentially a lot of coaches might. Find themselves in sort of where we, we found ourselves as we were mapping out, and again, I say we as Matthaeus was mapping out the new season of the pod and some of the episodes that our listeners might find beneficial. We felt like this time of year was a good time of year to be, thinking about how we are giving feedback to our teachers. So, kind of diving in there, and you touched on a point that we're gonna circle around to on the whole, trying to build relationship and build rapport, and how do you balance that act? So, we'll, we'll circle back around to that, that topic. But, in your experience, what is, what is truly effective feedback? So you're saying you were kind of auditing the type of feedback you're giving. So, so what would you say, what is truly effective feedback that can lead to actionable change for teachers in your role as a coach?

Brooke Conklin: 10:20

Yeah, so I, I think it's important to note that all three

types of feedback: 10:24

praise, coaching, evaluation, they're all important. We, we need all of them in our roles. We need to, be recognized for doing good work, for doing things correctly. We need someone coaching us and asking us those reflective questions to, to really think about our practice and our work so that we, we grow internally, in our skillset. And we also need evaluation. And I'm gonna asterisk that nobody come at me, and the comments or, or whatever exists in the blog page. I know that coaches aren't evaluative, but individuals. We need evaluation, to know how we stack up against the standard so that we can identify where we have room to grow. So I, I think first of all, we, we have to recognize that all three of those are, are important. But I think effective feedback for teachers and the role of the coach, effective feedback, really at the core is feedback or conversation in exchange with the teacher that leads to instruction improving. So that can be through praise maybe, but it, it often is through more of a dialogue. It's so feed, feedback doesn't necessarily need to be, a post-it note of things for improvement left on the desk at the end of an observation. Feedback doesn't need to be us saying "You should try this" or "This wasn't quite right." feedback in a coaching sense often is more of a dialogue. And, and I also think it's important to note that for a coach to provide effective feedback, we have to approach it from, from a partnership mindset. Meaning that when we're entering the classroom and we are, are looking at what is, is happening in terms of instruction or the lesson or, or the teacher or the children; we have to approach any conversation where we want to change instruction from this mindset that we are a partner with the teacher, that we are an equal, not that we are there to fix them. So I, I, those are all important things to note, but Katie, you asked about how, how we give feedback to make sure that it's actionable. That was the root of the question. So for, for that point, if we're wanting instruction to change, our, our feedback needs to come from a place of agreement with the teacher. I hope I'll, I'll clarify that here. So in a coaching role, it, when you are meeting with a teacher, when you are looking at instructional challenges or you're co-teaching or you're observing; feedback is rarely received well, if we come at our teachers with you need to do X, Y, Z better. Feedback is typically better received and therefore more actionable. When we approach a teacher and we start a conversation about, what the goals of the teacher are, or what the teacher is seeing in terms of the challenge or the thought process of the teacher. When we start to ask questions and we turn our, our feedback, from a statement into a dialogue, then we start to pull the teacher into our thought process and we open up their thinking. So that they're then inspired to take action and they're inspired to, to be right in there with us, to figure out a better way forward. So I guess my, my short and sweet to that is that effective feedback can take on many forms, but often it's, a dialogue, between the coach and the teacher towards, a new way of doing something or a resolution, or, or problem solving.

Katie Ritter: 13:54

Awesome. And do you have, this might put you on the spot a little bit, but do you have, could you give us like a, an instance or maybe even like a, a very brief like role play scenario of like a tangible specific thing you were giving feedback on to a teacher or a coach and, and maybe some of the actual questions or the actual dialogue, or at least as, as close as possible to like paint that example a little bit.

Matthaeus Huelse: 14:21

I can play the role if we're doing some role play.

Brooke Conklin: 14:22

That might put my, my feedback skills to the test. no, I, I have a, a situation in mind. So I, I was working with, well, I guess the campus was K -12, but this particular team was fourth grade, that I had been having conversations with for a few weeks and there, was a, a growing amount of frustration from the fourth grade team at the misbehavior and chaoticness, the chaos that was the fourth grade students. So my fourth grade team was very frustrated. I was hearing a lot of language, like "I would love to do station work, but my kids can't handle it."" I would love to introduce x, y, z tech, but I know that my kids are gonna be, you know, they're not, they're not going to behave, they're gonna be on other sites.""there's no way they would do that responsibly.""I don't have enough time because my kids" blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There, there were just so many excuses, so much frustration, so much like, emotional intensity about this group of kids. And so, i, I met with the fourth grade team kind of individually, and I asked one particular teacher. I said I, "I, I have some ideas of some things that might help, but I, I've never been with your kids. I have my experience with my own students that I taught, but obviously yours are completely different. Could I come in and get just a better picture of where your kids are at, what they're like, what these misbehaviors are like?""Can I come in and see it sometime? Would you mind if I just like, sat in your room and kind of observed your kids before I start to problem solve with you on, on potential. So solutions", she's like, "Yeah, sure. Come, come see 'em they're a mess." so I, I make an appointment. I go in and I watch her class, and, what I see is that there's clearly a, a disconnect where the teacher is seeing the challenge as the students, student behavior. They also, complain that there is a lack of administrative, responsibility for these students that, they didn't have any support from their building leadership. So the teacher saw it as like the students were the problem. So from watching I, I watch and there, there's no beginning of class routine. The kids come in, there's nothing on the board, there's no like self-starting activities. It's just, basically come and sit down and then start getting in trouble. And then also I saw clarity and directions was not great. The teacher was not providing very clear directions. It wasn't single step directions. It was multi-step directions. A lot of times, stu students were getting lost. That's when the behavior problems started. So as a coach with an outsider's perspective and no relationship to these students, it was easy for me to pinpoint all these things that could be improved. But that's where I think we, we can fall into ineffective feedback pretty quickly. So to approach it from more of a partnership mindset,

Katie Ritter: 17:23

In by, sorry clarify.

Brooke Conklin: 17:24

Yeah.

Katie Ritter: 17:25

In feedback feedback, you mean to go say, Hey, your directions aren't very clear. Hey, you Mm-Hmm. beginning of the classroom routine. Right. And just like pinpoint

Brooke Conklin: 17:33

Yeah.

Katie Ritter: 17:34

to you as an outsider, glaring issues.

Brooke Conklin: 17:37

Exactly, because that, that to me is evaluative feedback, which is what we veer away from as a coach, for me to go in and, and say, you know, you could do this better, this better, this better, while I sit on my ivory tower. So for providing more effective coaching feedback, you, you have to establish yourself as a partner in that problem. and, and you can do that often by questioning, and making it kinda a joint venture. So instead of me going to this teacher and saying like, you know, I think your beginning of the classroom routines are pretty shoddy. I might, on my follow up with her, say,"Hey, like, thanks for having me in. I, I started getting some ideas, but I wanna pick your brain about a couple things.'cause I know I just saw 20 minutes of your class. Can you tell me a little bit more about your expectations when the kids come in? What are you expecting them to be doing? What should they be doing?" And, and so then you're not take, you're not putting the blame on the teacher of they're not doing something right, but you're trying to develop a better understanding. And then that led to a conversation of, well, "I expect them to come in and they're not supposed to be talking and they're supposed to start getting, like, working on their work right away and, blah, blah, blah." So then. I'm able to follow up with that, with another question, and I might say, "Okay, I understand so, your expectation is that like class starts from the minute they sit down, they're not supposed to be waiting on you to get started?""That's correct." And then from there I'm able to follow up with that, follow that up with another question, and I might say, "Okay, I understand so your expectation is that like class starts from the minute they sit down, they're not supposed to be waiting on you to get started.""That's correct.""You know, what would, what would you think of housing your directions here? Or I'm wondering if, maybe visual aids could be helpful. Have you thought about integrating something like this?" and that's a pretty, like, simple solution, but I. Through a line of questioning, you're able to get to the bottom of what the teacher's thought process is. And, and oftentimes teachers in that situation will start to like self-identify, like, "Well, I haven't really thought about what I expect. I just expect them to listen to me." and then you're able to spark a dialogue about why that might not be happening, that that's more teacher led. So, so that, I guess is my example of kind of a clear disconnection where we were able to, I was able to offer feedback, by probing with questions.

Katie Ritter: 20:05

That was a great, very specific example to help people kind of grasp what you mean when you say creating a dialogue and asking questions about it.

Matthaeus Huelse: 20:12

Yeah, I think it showed really well that you're really just becoming a partner in this process. You are not just standing there on the side telling them, this is something you need to work on, this is something you need to prove on, but you are becoming a partner in the process by asking those questions and being, being part of deciding what could be coming up next. I think what is interesting to me is, I mean, as a coach, we'll go out there, we'll have these conversations, what do we do though if we have these conversations frequently? Right. I mean, it might have happened before where I've gone into a room and I've seen something, I've given advice and, best intentions, but it's, it's not landing. It's not, it's

Brooke Conklin: 20:43

Mm-Hmm.

Matthaeus Huelse: 20:44

it's still appearing how, it's still the same issue. How, is there any kind of advice you can give to someone that is giving the feedback but not getting the response, not the action?

Brooke Conklin: 20:53

Yeah, I, I think if. If you feel like you're saying it and things aren't changing, chances are it's not being heard. So in, in that situation, I would encourage the coach to think about, how they can have a more direct line of communication in that questioning. So whereas with my example, I might have asked the teacher, "What do you want to see at the start of the class?" she might have told me, I might have offered some solutions and then it's still not happening. Beginning of class is still chaotic. A more direct line of questioning I could have tagged onto that would've been, "Okay, you're wanting to see your class do X, Y, Z. How are you currently promoting that? How are you encouraging that right now? How are you reinforcing that right now?" And so you're still approaching it from questioning, trying to get understanding, but you're also helping them to see more directly that they might be missing something they might not be doing, which what they think they're doing. I also, if, if you're just feel like you're hitting a dead wall or hitting a, hitting a wall, beating a dead horse to get my analogies mixed up, beating a dead wall. If you're just beating a dead wall, then, i, I might try to flip the script. And, and this is I don't know if we could say, this is purely feedback, more so coaching strategy, but, with my, my teacher that's having classroom management issues and we're not getting anywhere, I might say, you know. I feel like this is still probably like a challenging point of your class for you. Like, am I correct in that assumption? And she might say, yes, they're still chaotic and crazy. Then I might try to flip the script and instead of giving her feedback, I might say, "Okay, I wanna try something. with your class, I, I think it'll work. I don't know. do you mind if I plan the first 20 minutes of your lesson on Thursday?" You observe me and you give me feedback on what I could do differently, to, to better meet your kids or, or give me feedback on what you think I'm doing that would work for your kids and not work for your kids. So if you can put yourself from like the passive ivory tower, feedback provider to in the role in their shoes, and you're seeking their feedback, it can help open their eyes to some strategies that they could try or some things that they could do. And then you're offering for them to give you feedback, which sparks more of a dialogue. So that would be another strategy, if, if you're just not seeing results. You, you could also, the, and this takes a little bit of finesse 'cause you never want anyone to feel like they're less than someone else. But peer observation is so powerful. If you can isolate what a teacher is really struggling with, maybe it's pacing of their lesson. If you can find some way in the schedule to have them go observe a peer teacher that is excellent at pacing, and, and you maybe you watch their class while they go, go do that. Then they can see it in action from a peer, and then you're able to facilitate a conversation about pacing, with the teacher and, and hopefully bring in some of those strategies to their own classroom. So those are all coaching techniques. I, I don't know if they're necessarily feedback, but it's, it's a way to provide coaching, feedback through dialogue.

Matthaeus Huelse: 24:11

I think that was, that was perfect. I mean, those are really great, great ideas and I, we all know that it's easier to find fault in someone else's work than in my own right. So having someone else come in and seeing either me do something or see another teacher be successful, I think those are, great ways to kind of like self-reflect in that moment as well. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like we've, we've mentioned some good techniques. I do like the questioning approach. I do like all of that. But what about, and this is, what about the compliment sandwich? Is it dead? Do we not to do the compliment sandwich anymore? Something nice than something more, I don't know. I need to know.

Brooke Conklin: 24:45

So here's my short answer to that is that I, I don't like the compliment sandwich. I think it's fake. Especially if you're intentionally doing it and I think it reads fake, and, and I think that, we don't have enough time for that. so my alternative to the complement sandwich is, is to invest in the relationship before you start the feedback. If you have a good enough relationship with someone where , they know that you think they are a fantastic teacher, there is no question in the relationship that you hold them in high esteem when you offer feedback, or you ask a question about their instruction, they're not going to doubt themselves because you've already built into them enough that they know you think that they're great. So I, I do incur, and maybe this goes against what I said earlier about the praise situation. We're all gonna be scarred from the math coach, but, at, at the beginning of giving feedback, the best thing that you can do is to get comfortable inserting yourself in situations to give praise. If you're not comfortable getting into the classroom, giving feedback on what you saw in the classroom isn't gonna be comfortable. So if you can get comfortable asking to sit in on, sit in, on lessons to observe, to be a part of their instruction, and then you can get comfortable pointing out very specific things to praise them on, you're gonna build your relationship, you're gonna build your ability to give feedback. And then when you are ready or you see something that you can question to improve the instruction, it's going to feel more natural to you and the teacher'cause you're already part of their instruction and you've already seen all the great work that they're doing and you've already acknowledged that. So I would say to get rid of the compliment sandwich and to be authentic and celebrate the great things your teachers are doing so that they don't doubt, their abilities whenever you do provide feedback.

Katie Ritter: 26:37

That's a great point, Brooke, because I feel like a lot of times coaches avoid giving feedback. That isn't just that praise or appreciation or, "Hey, you did a great job", feedback because they're, they're trying to protect that relationship. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know. I know you kind of touched on it at the beginning, right? Like in your scenario, you had walked in as a brand new coach to this building, so you were really focused on building the relationship. So you wanted to tell people, you know,"Hey, you're doing a good job", versus,"Well, maybe you're not starting your classroom instructions so great." Which to be clear, that's not what you're saying to do anyway. At any point, no matter how long you've known these people but, is there anything else you, you would touch on or a bit of advice you might share to coaches who feel like they're in this, like, limbo balancing act of trying to build the relationship and, and get comfortable with providing feedback as well?

Brooke Conklin: 27:36

I mean, I think the hardest part is getting put well. From talking to a lot of coaches, I see a lot of coaches struggle, which is getting into the classroom to observe and feeling comfortable asking for that, feeling comfortable doing that. So I think that that's the first step. And then the next thing that I would advise if you're having trouble, just mentally being comfortable with providing feedback is to start with questions. True partnership questions, don't come into it with any assumptions about the lesson, about the instruction, about the ability of the teacher at all. Just true curiosities. So if you're in the classroom, you're seeing something happen, be curious. Think curiously about something, and then in your conversation with the teacher, bring up that curiosity and say like,"You know, I, I, I'm really interested in how you've structured your station time. It you, you've kind of approached this a lot differently than I've seen in some other classrooms. Could you tell me more about that?" and you can start a dialogue where, where they're sharing, and then when they do start to express maybe some insecurity about something they've thought of, or maybe they, they honestly like, haven't given any thought to their stations. They just thought that's how it was done. When you see a window to provide feedback, and, and they start to like, maybe invite you to give your ideas. Something that you can do is to offer, to observe, to offer, to see their stations in action and ask them, "Is there anything you'd like me to give you feedback on?" i, that, that is something that's been new to me in working with a lot of the coaches and the coaching certification. It is just the concept of asking. Don't come in there, you know, knowing it all and giving all of your feedback. Ask the teacher what they would like you to see and ask the teacher what they would like your feedback on. When, when the teacher asks for it, it's much more comfortable. To share genuinely like your thoughts around the topic. So that, that would be my, my next suggestion, is if you find the window where they start to express insecurity or hesitation or solicit your ideas, ask if you can come in and ask if there's anything that they would like you to provide feedback on.

Katie Ritter: 29:42

That's great.

Matthaeus Huelse: 29:43

I think you hit that so well. I, i, we are experts in our field in, in some sense, but when we go to a teacher, we need to acknowledge them as the experts in their field as well. Mm-Hmm. And if we come in curious and questioning and wanting to learn more about what they're doing, I mean, I was a German teacher, but if I go to a different class, a different subject, I, I know I have a lot to learn. And if I come in with that mindset of I want to learn about what's going on here and I also wanna give praise when I see some good, that's how I built rapport, because I show that teacher, look, I respect you for what you do. I, this is amazing. And yeah, I think you really hit it on the, on the head on this one.

Katie Ritter: 30:18

Great point. I like the, I like the underline there. Yeah. On the They're a expert too. So acknowledging that goes a long way. were you gonna say, were you gonna ask her a question? Matthaeus.

Matthaeus Huelse: 30:26

I was gonna go into break for a second.

Katie Ritter: 30:27

Oh, thank you.

Matthaeus Huelse: 30:28

Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna take a real quick short break and we're going to hand this over to our advertisers and we will be right back with Brooke Conklin.

Katie Ritter: 30:37

Welcome back to the Restart Recharge podcast, your host, Matthaeus Huelse and Katie Ritter here. And we are interviewing long time, pod guest, Brooke Conklin, offering all things feedback. So Brooke, you have really given, i, I think like just these overarching great nuggets. One, make feedback more of a dialogue when you're in the role of a coach., build those relationships first. Then make feedback, a dialogue, and ask a lot of questions, establish yourself as a partner in the process. So these are, these are great things. I think your tangible example you gave us earlier in the episode, of your situation did a really nice job of painting examples of what you mean by that. For our coaches who might be new to really giving structured feedback, or maybe this just lit an aha and they just realized all that they're really doing is giving, you know, praise, feedback and telling teachers like, wow, I, this was great what you did. Who are going to start to make, make the shift, do you have some tangible strategies or tips that you might give someone to help them? Because I just think of, you know, your, your example of how your teacher, you noticed that they didn't have a starting routine, and so you said, what are your expectations when students come in at the beginning of the room and you making that connection from observation to, question that made it more of a dialogue. I think was really, really key there, how you did that. So I'm just wondering what, what tips and strategies would you give someone who's brand new to that and who might not think as quickly on their feet in that moment to ask that type of a question and create that dialogue? How, how can somebody build up that skillset?

Brooke Conklin: 32:18

that's a great question, Katie. And I do think that coaching, just like teaching is an art form. There, there's not necessarily a list of steps that you have to do to get it right. So I think the, the first thing that comes to mind is just to be aware of, what good teaching looks like. That that sounds like a not helpful advice, but I'm gonna point everyone in a, in, in a direction that'll hopefully helps. So if, I don't know if we show this thing on video or not, but, we'll link it in the show notes. I have a book here, that has helped me. So I'm a former seventh grade social studies teacher. I have only ever taught social studies, so for me, giving, feedback to a math teacher, a science teacher, felt very out of my element. But what, this book does, it's called, the Artisan Teacher, and it is by Mike Rutherford. and on his website it's it's www. Rutherford lg.com. R-U-T-H-E-R-F-O-R-D L-G.com. He has these resources there for, you can also buy the book too. But he has a memory jogger that you can download, that has instructional concepts that I found really helpful in giving feedback as a coach. So things like, neural down shifting, the ability of the teacher to reduce stress and threat in the classroom environment to avoid survival mode thinking and to increase higher order thinking. That is something that like. We, we see it happen. Teachers take these really scary concepts, these very, really abstract concepts, and they, they make them, easily attainable for our students. They make them friendly. That's called neural downshifting. I wouldn't have known that but, putting a name to that gives me something to look for so that when I am in a classroom and I see a teacher who's starting a unit on, I dunno, quantum physics, and they started out with like a comedic clip. I can point that out and I can say, "Hey Mr. Larry, like that was a great job of neural, neural downshifting." Quantum physics seems like something that could be a pretty heavy for your second graders and you, put in that comedic clip and you gave them something to relate to right away. Or ver vice versa, if you are entering a classroom that maybe, you can't praise neural down shifting. You might look at this and you might say, okay, there's a problem with neural down shifting here. Students are having trouble connecting to this. So your coaching question might be, "Mr. Larry. I'm really excited to, to see what comes out of your unit on quantum physics. That's something that's always like, interested me personally. I'm curious, how do you help your students, your second graders, connect to this really complicated topic?" So that is a coaching question about neural downshifting, but you wouldn't necessarily know to point that out unless you had familiarity with these like, teaching concepts. Other ones that, that are something I think we point out a lot as coaching. There is, stage craft, the ability of the teacher to enhance, deepen, or prolong student engagement by utilizing a theatric treatment. We see that all the time, but putting a name to it makes it more specific, and it provides greater recognition or greater clarity to our teachers if we're able to call it by name. Chunking is another one that we're all pretty familiar with. Congruency designing classroom activities that are, are matched to the learning goals. So I think back to the question, just getting familiar with like foundational instructional elements, if you need a place to go to"Artisan Teacher" is a great place. But that can give us a bank of concepts to then be on the lookout for when we are in classrooms providing feedback.

Katie Ritter: 36:00

Say that book name. One more time, Brooke, because I think thats a, great point and I think especially for our tech coach listeners or our just general instructional coach listeners that are supporting K 12 or multiple grade bands, multiple content areas, you know, you mentioned going into math class was really scary to you. I, I think every single one of us who have had to coach grade bands, beyond what we were certified in or content areas beyond what we are certified in, or shoot even the same content area. But a class you never taught, can be really scary to go in and like you're the instructional coach now. So say that one more time 'cause it sounds like this is a great, get yourself up to speed quickly to be able to have common conversations across grade bands and, and content areas.

Brooke Conklin: 36:44

Yeah. It's called "The Artisan Teacher, a field Guide to skillful teaching", and it is by Mike Rutherford., I don't need to know anything about quantum physics or the, the topic at hand, but I can call out some chunking and I can call out some time and timing if I know to look for it.

Matthaeus Huelse: 36:59

I love how it used quantum physics. I feel like that is the proverbial sixth gear of, school learning would be quantum physics. There is only downshifting at that point, I feel like.

Katie Ritter: 37:09

Yeah. I look forward to the second graders. Yeah. Quantum physics lesson.

Brooke Conklin: 37:13

Yeah. I really just thought about like the most complicated thing that I remember about, and seems like it's probably that,

Matthaeus Huelse: 37:21

So, oh,

Brooke Conklin: 37:22

go ahead.

Matthaeus Huelse: 37:23

I have a, I have a quick question. I like how yeah.

Katie Ritter: 37:26

we're breaking this down into actual, approaches that you can use and turn this into things that we can immediately turn into, our coaching habits. What about preparing for a conversation where you're about to give feedback? Let's say you observe a classroom, you've done, you've done the work, you've got your notes. What can I do as a coach in terms of preparing myself before I go into that conversation with my teacher?

Brooke Conklin: 37:46

Yeah. are you think, are you asking like, emotionally, like self-confidence wise, or are you thinking just being ready for it mentally?

Matthaeus Huelse: 37:54

Probably a little bit of both. There's gonna have to be some mental toughening done potentially for us, but it's more about, how do I structure my thoughts? May maybe, what do I wanna think about

Brooke Conklin: 38:02

Yeah.

Matthaeus Huelse: 38:02

before I go into this conversation? Maybe one, what do I wanna write down my notes before I go in?

Brooke Conklin: 38:07

Yeah, that's a great question, Matthaeus. So I, I think the first thing to mentally prepare and get yourself into my right mindset, and we're, we're pretending that we've already done an observation. We've been a part of a lesson. We've co-taught, we we've seen it. the first thing you can do on your own is to make a list of the assumptions you're making. Before you give feedback, because we don't want to bring any assumptions into our feedback. We see maybe, maybe 45 minutes of a full lesson. We don't see the teacher every weekend in their class. We don't see the planning that goes into it. We don't see. See, often we don't see how it ends up. We see a very small microcosm of that instruction. So write down any assumptions you catch yourself making about the lesson so that you're aware of those assumptions. The second thing I would do, is to write down curiosities or questions, that would help me have a more complete picture of the instruction, and even maybe the, of the challenge. So in my example with classroom management, my assumptions might be, that this teacher has never thought about putting directions on the board. That would be an assumption I was making. a curiosity I might have is what does the teacher want the start of the class to look like? Some teachers don't want the class to start until they verbally start the class. Other teachers want the students to get started right away. So that's something that I can clarify to, to make the environment what the teacher wants it to be. So I'm putting my assumptions, I'm putting down my questions;, and then my next thing would be to vet my questions and take out any"you" language, as much as possible. We, if we start asking "Why did you?" or, and I know I already gave an example using a "you" so here I am a, a hypocrite but; if we say, "Why did you choose this?""Have you thought about that?""What are you doing?"" you", if not done correctly, can put teachers on the defensive 'cause now we're, we're questioning their ability. if looking at your questions, if you can turn it in to be more student focused or task focused. So, maybe a better version of my question would've been, "What should the students be doing when they come in?"" how should the students be acting if this were like the perfect day?" or I might address the student's relationship to the learning task and say, instead of saying like, "Have you thought of using more technology to get them excited about learning?" I might ask "How have the students responded to technologies like Padlet or Flipgrid in the past?" so if, if you can take away as much like defensive "you" language as possible, I think that that's really helpful. And then I, I guess the next step is just to have a conversation with the teacher. And, and I would encourage you if it's appropriate, maybe start out by asking them, like, "What would you like feedback on, based on like the observation? Was there anything that happened while I was in there that you would like my, you know, that you would like to start talking about?" Maybe this teacher doesn't care about the start of the bell. Maybe the teacher cares about the middle of the bell. So put it in their plate of where they want to start the conversation. And then, one of my favorite tips that has become more, more emphasized, I guess, in my brain since working with all these coaches through the certifications, is that we as the coach should never be the first ones to insert our opinions, or our thoughts on a matter. So if I'm coming into this teacher's classroom, I'm not gonna start by listing out everything I saw. I'm gonna get their thoughts, their opinions, their perspectives before I ever share anything that ran across my brain. They, they are the expert. They whether they're the best teacher you've seen or not in that moment, they are the expert and they are fully competent of making decisions and they're fully competent of knowing their kids; and I think if we come in with that mindset that it really changes the reception of feedback.

Katie Ritter: 41:57

All Brookie, you know that we end every episode with top three tips, but we're putting a fun spin on it. If you wanna take it with the top three things not to do mix and match. You can do that.

Matthaeus Huelse: 42:10

Yeah, we can, whichever, wherever you wanna go.

Katie Ritter: 42:13

Whichever way you wanna go, you drive the conversation here. But your top three tips and takeaways, giving effective feedback and getting more comfortable, giving teachers effective feedback.

Brooke Conklin: 42:26

That's tough. I was trying to think if I had three of either of those. Never or always. I'll mix and match. Is that okay?

Katie Ritter: 42:33

Yeah, that works. That's why I gave you the options.

Brooke Conklin: 42:35

Okay, perfect. All right, I'm gonna count on my fingers so that I make sure I get to three. So my never is, never assume you have the whole story. There's a lot of insight information that exists beyond what you saw. My always is always maintain a partner mindset. You are, you are in it with them, you're not above or below. Everything you're doing together is for the kids, and you guys are partners in that. my third, tip is to start to identify and recognize the type of feedback you're giving. So that being, are you falling into a maybe too much comfort with praise, and that's the type of feedback you're giving all the time is only praise. Or are you really getting to meaty coaching conversations, and opening up feedback dialogues that way. So, never assume you have the whole story. Always maintain a partner mindset and start to recognize the difference between praise and coaching.

Katie Ritter: 43:32

Those were great.

Matthaeus Huelse: 43:33

Fantastic. Indeed.

Katie Ritter: 43:35

Very great.

Matthaeus Huelse: 43:35

Great. Brooke, thank you so much. You've given us and our listeners so many great things to, to take away from this, feedback is on everyone's mind all the time. We're doing it all the time. So this has, this has been incredibly helpful. Thank you so much, Brooke, for joining us today.

Brooke Conklin: 43:50

Thank you guys for having me.

Matthaeus Huelse: 43:51

And speaking of feedback listeners, if you would love to give us some feedback. Come and join us on our social media outlets. Come to TikTok, come to Facebook, come to Instagram, say hi. Let us know what you're thinking. We would love to engage with you. So

Katie Ritter: 44:04

I'm gonna build on asking for feedback. This is another tip that Brooke has given, not on this episode, but previously. A lot of times you can make feedback, you can normalize it with your teachers by asking for feedback for yourself. In your own work. So I would like to normalize feedback and ask you dear listeners to give us some feedback by rating and reviewing the podcasts. If you use Apple Podcasts, you can go, you know what? I'm gonna take out my phone. We're just gonna walk through it.

Matthaeus Huelse: 44:35

Oh, I got you.

Katie Ritter: 44:36

But if you go to Apple Podcasts where then you find Restart Recharge, you're going to click on the pod, and then if you click the three dots in the top of the show, you should be able to subscribe to the podcast. And if you scroll, I believe all the way down on the information page of the podcast, you should be able to get to the ratings area. So you, you just scroll down past the list of recent episodes and then that's where it will give you the ability to rate and review, and it really helps people find the podcast, understand what we're about.

Matthaeus Huelse: 45:15

And if you listen to our podcast on Spotify, you can look up under the search tab and then click under about where you will see a little star rating and you can leave your opinion right there.

Katie Ritter: 45:24

So if you have found this at all helpful, I joked at the beginning that we had a few people tell us they listen when we were at our most recent conference at FETC in Orlando. But, truly it means the world to us that we are helping create a community and conversation around coaching.

Matthaeus Huelse: 45:40

Thank you so much, Brooke.

Brooke Conklin: 45:41

Bye team.