Pastor Scott, Thaiv, Bryce and Dan answer the question that came in during Zootown's Hell-ology series.
Pastor Scott, Thaiv, Bryce and Dan answer the question that came in during Zootown's Hell-ology series.
Uh, hello and welcome back to the zoo town podcast. This is episode two, hell ology, a conversation. In this episode, we are going to be covering questions and comments that we have received both in person online, uh, via email or text messaging that have come up during the series of hell ology, uh, from our church and from other people watching around the world. Um, so we hope you enjoy the conversation and if you need more information about hell allergy, please visit[inaudible] dot com back slash health dash apology. Uh, yeah, let's get to it.
Speaker 2:Does he town podcast? Uh, this is kind of a special
Speaker 3:One that we're doing because at zoo town, we did a series called hell ology, uh, where we went through three different views of hell, um, which is a wonderful series. Our church was amazing, um, at receiving it. Um, but it was new. Like it's not new in the sense that it's new in Kristen numb, but it was new to American evangelicalism that there traditionally had been three views of, um, of health. So if you're listening to this, uh, we highly suggest you go listen to that series first. And so what we're doing with this podcast is we're going to answer some of the questions that the church sent in, um, to us. And a lot of them were answered in the series, so we don't have that many of them, but there are some that we picked out that we think are important to discuss. And so with us today, I'm Scott clout got Dan DeLong, Hey, Bryce, Derek, and Tai Armour day. Yo. And, uh, yeah, so we did a video shoot of this before just kind of talking logically about where we grew up, um, with this concept, um, and the good things of it, and also the damage that it did do us. And, um, so our goal was to clarify, but also one of our goals is just to allow people to think for themselves and study for themselves. They should study this for themselves and go on a journey with Christ themselves on all these subjects, not just regurgitate what we're saying. So, um, you can never really experienced something until you experience something. So I suggest everyone listening to this, um, kind of researches as themselves. So, uh, one of the first things that was asked, because this is different in American worldview Christianity, um, I, I made a statement that how they wrote was apocalyptic hyperbole, meaning Jesus spoke all things in parables. It said, um, and then you got a course of the book of revelation. Daniel is EQL all those, and people like to take those literal in America, but if you study a world church view, um, and the early church, they, they, they spoken apocalyptic hyperbole. It was like using symbolism exaggerations to describe an event. And that, that caused a lot of people to have great questions because they're so used to being told this is literal. Um, and I'm not saying there aren't some things that are literal. Like, I, I think that's why we have the spirit to know what things are literal and what are not like when God says don't cheat on your wife. I don't think he meant it in hypokalemic hyperbole. I think that was literal. Um, but there's other things that are obviously hyperbole, you know, symbolism and all kinds of stuff. So what are your guys' views on that? Um, kind of maybe just why people want it to be literal or why we've accepted it as literal and the problems with, with that, with both of them, the literal view and the apocalyptic hyperbole view of scripture.
Speaker 4:I think that one of the things that we do, um, oftentimes is we like to assume that the way we do things now is the way things have always been done. And so even just the way we record history, uh, historians would tell you that we've only recorded history the way we do now for the last like 200 years. Other than that, I mean, the way we've been so precise with things, um, I listened to your podcast a while ago and they talked about how, um, only in the last 60 years would you have a business that says we're open until 5:00 PM and you could show up at four 45 and be absolutely certain that they're open because we have that level of precision right now. And that's the way we record history. It's all about like data and, and, uh, um, quantifiable facts and things like that. And that's just not the way the majority of humanity has recorded history. And so there was always, um, there was always an agenda and I don't mean that in a negative way, like there was a reason behind the wa why you, um, wrote things down the way you wrote things down. It was to convey something deeper than just facts and figures, but we don't like that. Like, that's just not the way we operate now. And so we want to put that onto the Bible and the Bible was finished, uh, writing a real, real long time ago, long before we decided to record history the way we do it now. And, uh, so if we don't understand the way it was written and why it was written to the people that it was written, uh, we're gonna misconstrue
Speaker 3:A lot of things or it will just insert our own views of culture is what we do. Yes, I think that's, and that's one of the most hard things to convey to people that like Genesis wasn't written at the time it happened. Exactly. It was written literally thousands of years later, thousands of years later now, do I think it's inspired? Absolutely. But I just, I look at it like the reason that God allowed men to write that way was so it hit the spirit because data doesn't hit the spirit. Right. But to think, you know, and we'll get into revelation, you know, after you guys kind of see your spiel, but it's like, people think God just like we have to have, but don't worry. Cause God wrote it all down for us perfectly. So we know exactly how things are going to happen. And I'm like, I don't think that's faith then at all. Yeah. So what's your view on it? Ty, you have such great things to say about the Bible. I do
Speaker 4:Think good that as people, we have this huge desire to have something that's tangible and in a sense, the Bible is that because we can touch it, we can feel it, we can flip the pages, um, all of those things. And when something's tangible, it's hard not to say it's literal because I'm holding it in my hands, you know? And so I think then we approach the words similarly that like, well, this is standable, this is exactly how it was supposed to, to be. And then, uh, kind of like you guys said with our context, the way that we come at things right wrong or indifferent is the way that we were raised into them. You know? And so our experiences dictate how we approach everything in life. And, um, you know, the way we interpret how someone said something to us or, or, uh, how I read something is going to be highly influenced by who I am as a person, how I was raised the culture I'm in all of those things. Um, so I think that's a big part of it. I think, uh, kinda like you said too, another part of it is whether or not we're writing for the letter of the law versus the spirit of the thing, you know? And so Paul said the scriptures are spirit, right? Yeah. And I think that's huge. And, and we miss that. I think a lot that we want the letter of the law, because then we know ABCD, you know, or, or at least we can kind of construct that from most of the texts and we're on the right team. Right. So easy to draw the battle lines, um, you know, and, and run things, uh, that way when, uh, I just think that it was broader than that. It was the spirit that, that mattered. And, um, the spirit of what was being talked about and conveyed in all throughout scripture. Um, and, and, you know, when you can separate that from the literal, uh, reading of the text, I think you find, uh, uh, God in so much, you know, just in all of it, just, you see them presented in the way that we believe him to be already, that God is love. Um, and it's so much easier to see him as that in the spiritual sense versus the literal text sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I it's like the first thing people say, when you start bringing this up is so you don't think the Bible is true. Right. And I'm always like everyone jumps right there. Yeah. And then I can show you 10 different spots, a hundred different spots where this guy says this, but then this guy says this and it's both true. Cause it's leading to the truth. Jesus Christ. So again, my faith, do I have faith in the Bible? That it's true. Yes. But my faith isn't in the Bible, correct. My faith is in who the Bible points to is in Jesus Christ. And again, we've brought this up so many times, but even, even just look at like the old Testament with, uh, you know, um, Chronicles and Kings and Chronicles was written 350 years after, maybe more with a totally different cultural mindset and a totally different reason for writing that book. And there's, there's a ton of different viewpoints in there. And skip forward to the gospels. The gospels are the same way. Like there's so many different views, you'll read a parable and Luke compared to Matthew, it's completely different with the same theme. So to say the Bible is literally perfect. I just I'm like, I don't know if those people have read the Bible or if they've cherry picked certain verses,
Speaker 4:Well, it puts you in, in my opinion, kind of an exhausting state where like you spend all of your time and energy and emotion trying to defend the Bible, um, you know, as opposed to digging into the relationship that should exist between you and Christ and the spirit and, um, you know, and then that, for me, it allows the Bible to be something that, that, uh, like is an assistance. It helps it, it helps cultivate that relationship, but it's not the basis for the relationship. No. And we've, I mean, it's like when, uh, the disciples asked Jesus, like how do we know the way to get somewhere? And he's like,
Speaker 5:I am the way. And
Speaker 4:Even so even early on, we were looking for roadmaps and things that make things easy and Jesus is just like, no, it's just
Speaker 3:Me. Yeah. Bryce. I was
Speaker 4:Just thinking, um, just in case somebody tuned in that, that maybe hasn't fallen along the whole series. Could you give people like a two sentence? What you mean by apocalyptic hyperbole? Just that it doesn't go over anybody's head.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's describing a major event in a symbolic way using exaggeration. Um, I think ties said, I don't remember if it was you, but you just said like how a kid, um, like even the term a thousand years people think the millennium rain for sure is a thousand years, but the old Testament a thousand years was just a really big way of describing something like God, well time. And you said, maybe you said it, but, uh, Dan, like, it was like a kid comes in and he's like, oh, there was like a thousand kids on the playground today with water balloons. And we get the point, like, it was fun. It was packed, but it wasn't literally a thousand. And I think that's just, again, apocalyptic hyperbole uses the term a thousand generations a thousand days, but it doesn't mean like God's like, okay, 999. Boom. You know, so that's, that's the whole book of revelation Daniel.
Speaker 4:Right? I think so. I think I can, I can definitely see why people get hung up on it. And I think it ties into our, you know, w we're kind of, uh, the type of people we like to decode things. And we like to like find meaning in things it's a kind of goes into like the conspiracy theory culture too, you know, like if you feel like you see behind the veil that nobody else sees, you know, and I think sometimes people approach like revelation in that way where it's like, oh, there's this, you know, there's this meaning here. That's hidden. And, and if I can it, if I can be the one that kind of figures it out there, there's a sense of like power and satisfaction. And, um, you know, throughout time, many, many people have sort of brought forth their, you know, ah, crack the code, you know, I know what's, what's going to happen. And these are the things we look for. And, um,
Speaker 3:You know, like Daniel statue, right? This was this kingdom, this kingdom, the feet, what about the feet? And it's just like,
Speaker 4:And I think people bring that same approach into revelation. And I think, um, it's interesting because I think, you know, people that you read revelation and you read something like, you know, you read about the, the beast and the dragon and the woman. And, you know, I don't know that anybody's thinking like, oh, it means, it means like a literal dragon, you know? Uh, I'm not sure that there's anybody going, like, yeah, Dragon's going to come up out of the, out of the ocean or, you know, it's like, it's, you know, they there's like an understanding that it's imagery in some sense, but then people want to be like, but I know what that means. And here it is ABCD. And, um, yeah,
Speaker 3:Like the throne room of God, even in revelation when he's like, we saw little slain lamb, I'm like, it's so clear, that's Jesus. Right. But they're like the, all the images we've seen, so they'll take that literal. And then they won't take, is there actually four horsemen coming out of the sky? Right. I had to do send me a video of this guy talking about revelation, where he said, like the needle for the, the vaccination, he found this verse in revelation and how, and you're just like,
Speaker 6:Wow, like, yeah.
Speaker 4:Which I think, I think it should just be like, it really should be like something for all of us to just realize that we all, when we approach that need to be delicate in the way that we handle it, um, you know, cause it's really easy to slip into like, oh, I, I see what that means. And you draw, you draw us, you know, the synapses in your brain fire and you draw this conclusion and then all of a sudden it becomes a YouTube video pretty soon. We're all looking pretty crazy. Yeah. And then we put up billboards and, you know, we predict the exact day that Jesus returns, you know, it's like, and I, and I get why people follow that stuff. Like I understand. I think, you know, I, I read all the left, but I didn't read all the left behinds. I think I got to the assassin one as far as I got to the black and gray will cover with like the red, you know, uh, cross hairs on it. And I, you know, like it is, it is exciting. It's exciting to think about it. And, and it feels like it has that same conspiracy theory energy to it that you're like, oh wow, like, yeah, look like we know what's going to happen. Nobody else does, which is
Speaker 3:Crazy because even Jesus, like he only, the father knows. Right. But here's a literal timeline in revelation that three years of this and after this and then seven, and then finally this is going to happen. Right. And you're like, totally. Yeah. It's just
Speaker 4:It's. Yeah, I think, and I think people, you know, we read so, uh, chronologically, you know, cause our minds are just programmed to see things on a timeline from like the beginning of time to the end of time. Um, and, and we missed that. A lot of the Jewish writing, it's more circular. It's more, it's, it's more like, here's the big picture, zoom in. Here's something, you know, here's, what's happening, zoom out. It's like, there's a lot more going on than just like, well, we're going to give it to you in order. And you just put it together and figure out what each of those things weren't people and warn people. Yeah. Yeah. But it's coming. Yeah. And then put up billboards. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that was my that's where I've always said to people like, which do you choose as literal then? So the same people will say women can't preach. Women cannot be leaders in the church. I mean, they can be leading our men back in the kids area, but that was kind of sarcastic dig. So they'll say, you know, right. But then you'll be like, okay, well, Jesus had turned the other cheek and love your enemies. And then they're like, wow. I mean, there is some caveats to that one
Speaker 4:Gear I out, right? Yeah. We're cut your hair. You go, Hey, if you ever looked at a woman with lust. Yeah. Did you pluck your eye out then? No. Yeah. Well, cause that wasn't literal. Wait a minute. What? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So they pick and choose that. And that's where I guess the biggest one that got me is even in the old Testament, how did the Jews miss their own Messiah? Because in the old Testament, it says their Messiah was coming to destroy their enemies. They missed the spiritual that it meant sin and death and Hades. And so that, so my fear then is Christians miss their own Messiah in their everyday life because they're so worried about the end times and this beast coming and all that, that it's like, I think the same way he surprised the Jews that he was different. Yeah. I'm guessing it's not going to go down. Like revelation says, cause then it wouldn't be as surprised. Like how he, like, you know how he is like a sword coming out of his mouth, which is the word of God. Is that the Bible? Is that a literal sword? Or is it the gospel? I mean like, yeah. So I think that's where people pick and choose like no women can't preach. Cause Paul said it right here. Right. But I don't have to love my enemies all the time. You know? So it's just, that's where taking a fundamentalist literal view, I think gets people in, like you said, it's exhausting. It's totally exhausting to try to like map this all out. So, but what that, the reason we bring that up is because that has a lot to do with hell, like to take this literal view of hell, um, is, is why there's so much tension. But even in that, is it outer darkness? Cause that's what Jesus said or is it in the center of the earth? Cause that's what the Jews said. Is it a love, like a fire? Is there a lake of fire out in space somewhere that, so yeah, there's certainly
Speaker 4:Enough images that make it, I feel like it's difficult for somebody who's actually being honest and being true to even their own belief about scripture to say, this is exactly what it is and this is exactly how it will go. Um, I've heard a lot of people competently, espouse that they know, you know, just, just how it's going to happen. Just exactly. And they'll say things like, well, that's what scripture says, but they, but they sort of take all these various imagery, all this various imagery and they lump it all into one version that they accept and that they kind of, you know, that that's, that's how it is. It's yeah. It's definitely a lake of fire or, you know, most people kind of ignore kind of outer darkness and the national of teeth and those other images, most people want to, they want to fixate on the lake of fire because it is, it's the most dramatic and it's the most extreme. And it's also, I think, you know, if, if we really accept that, then it's, it's the one that, you know, I think it's the one that actually punishes people like in our hearts, we want them to be punished where the bad guys really get what's coming to them. Right.
Speaker 3:Because we think justice is leveling the playing field or equally in the scales. That's how we view justice.
Speaker 4:It's essentially like a, uh, an, an eternal eye for an eye to throw to for sure. You know, you said
Speaker 3:You've heard that it was said, but I say, but then he's going to go back to that.
Speaker 4:Right. Or love your enemy, but God won't love his,
Speaker 3:That was in my sermon series. Even like when I said, you know, the lake of fire, it says in death and Hades is destroyed. It's over, it's done the next, you know, the next chapter, but there's some people outside the gate. So it's like, wait, it wasn't, wasn't it, you know? And the left behind series as well, I guess there was some people left over and it's like, well, you're still inserting your viewpoint into that passage. I
Speaker 4:Think that was one of the first things that cracked for me when I was really rested to really bring me to a place of wrestling about hell was when I read that. And I'm like, wait a minute. At the end, there's poor the nations bringing their glory into the city and why do they need healing? And what, where are these people and why are they like, because it had always been so black and white, you're either in heaven or you're in hell. You're either with Jesus or you're burning forever. And I think so then you insert this sort of like, but what about these people? Where did they come from? Who are they? How come they don't fit into my, you know, a or B destination. Yeah. And that was, that was kind of the big thing for me to go, well, I got to do something with them. I can't just, I can't just have them floating out there. Well,
Speaker 3:Apparently they're going into the new Jerusalem and eating leaves for the healing of the nations. So are we taking that literal? Like, is it real? And then even the dimensions of the new Jerusalem, again, this guy, I talked to a lot about it and he's a great guy. I love him. I seriously love this guy to death, but it's like all those dimensions, see, it's, it's literal and I'm like, billions of people can't fit in that city. By the way. Like if you look at the dimensions, other things going on there, I
Speaker 4:Want the shape of the city. It'd be literal. I'm okay with the dimensions expanding to fit everybody. I just think how cool is that description? You know, I mean really, if you just like, think about this like giant cube with like a river and a tree and glowing with the glory of God, like it just it's, it's such a sick view. I'd be totally okay. If that was literal, just eating leaves for healing. I bet it tastes delicious.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of a brief overview of apocalyptic hyperbole and I'm not trying to be mean here, but there's no debate about this. That's how they wrote. Like, that's just, that's the way those people wrote. So other question we got was, and this is, this was answered, but I don't know. Maybe we can go deeper into it. Why did, what did Jesus save us from then basically? Why did Jesus have to die? If ever if universalism is even a possibility, why did Jesus have to die? I did answer that in my sermon, but you guys can go ahead and espouse off
Speaker 4:That. I mean, to defeat sin, death and the devil, right? I mean, that's it. Then I think that that's the, you can make it super simple like that, which is maybe a mistake, but to just go, well, that was it. And then cause then we kind of get to that same space that we're kind of fighting against. Um, but just to show us how much he loves us. I mean, there's like so many things that you could S you could say about why Jesus went, cause we needed a punishment. Not because God did, you know, like those kinds of things. But I think he did you get the space where he defeats sin and death and, but did he,
Speaker 3:Because if the lake of fire, I mean, if hell is all, see the conundrum there, like most Christians would say, well, he did, but he didn't, you still have to believe this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I've totally believe you. I mean, love needs a choice. So we're not saying that, but the same people will say that it's not defeated. So did he fail like partial victory? I mean, it just, you know, the Calvinist view then went into like double predestination and all kinds of stuff because they just couldn't come to the mind, the grips that no, he actually did what he said he was gonna do. And he's ultimately victorious over it and it's, it's done. It's finished. So why did Jesus have to do?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think so. I think when people ask this question, it really shows how deeply ingrained it is that Jesus died to save us from, from God or from God's punishment. Um, you know, and so I think if, if you, if that's where you're at, then, then you're like, that's, that's what Jesus did on the cross. You know, we were under God's punishment and then he rescued us out from under it. Um, you know, that, that's kind of where I think that question lies because, but I, but I think it really misses what, what sin really is and what the wages of sin being death really is. You know, the idea that they've sort of moved all of the consequences of sin into this, uh, apocalyptic eternal space where it's like, you know, the, the separation of the sheep and the goats, if you will, where it's like someday, we're going to stand before God. And that's where sin is going to produce death. And because of that, there's we miss all of the death that sin is producing in our life. Now, you know, all sin, whether you're, whether you get caught in it, whether it, you know, whatever it is, it will, it will produce death. It pay the wages that it pays out is death. Yeah. And that's not, that's not a thing for, in the afterlife. That's a thing that it does right now. And so the idea that, that Jesus saves us from that space, that when he, you know, saved us and calls us into new life, even it rescues us, not just from some sort of eternal afterlife of torment, but, but it actually produces life and saves us from death right now. And I think that's, I think the, for me, that's where that question brought my mind was like, it was like, what do you mean? What is Jesus even save us from like that he's saving us every day from the wages of sin. If we, you know, when we follow him, when we, when we turn to him, when, when we receive his life so fast at confess and, and walk with him. So I, I think that's, you know, there's a, there's a part of it for me. That's, that's kind of where my mind went. I think what Dan said is absolutely true too. It's it's like, get defeated, like what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's better. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But some people I think, yeah. But then the other, the flip side is like, when you think that what he was doing was saving us from God, then you're like, yeah. Then it, it brings up a whole
Speaker 6:Podcasts[inaudible] which we will do. We will tell them that theory. And I
Speaker 4:Think, you know, that's the struggle with a lot of this. I think even, you know, earlier conversation is that, uh, it's pretty easy to just hit the Google box and find somebody's blog that will agree with you at tardy. And I don't think that's real research. So I would encourage people to not just like, find somebody that says, oh, well this, you know, yeah, here, you know, it's not that hard. You can Google it. And there you're going to find somebody who sees it your way. But I think too, you have to dig deeper. You have to really go to the point of reading both sides and, and try to delve beneath the surface with a lot of these things, because you'll uncover that there's a lot of, well, like a lot of good writing on what Jesus saves us from. But if you just think it's only one thing, then you'll find somebody who Googles about it, you know, blogs about it. And you're like, oh, okay, well, well,
Speaker 3:That's the problem. Dispensationalism like, we talked about earlier, mapping it out is they missed the point. And Pete had a great point where Paul talks so much about the, the pinpoint of history, as you said, it's circular, not linear is the cross the resurrection. Yeah. So why is there still evil? Because people don't believe that it's defeated. Yeah. So that's, that's been my entire, at the end of the day, American evangelicalism and other, just Christian beliefs, they believe you still kind of save yourself. Like it's not defeated, right. It's not defeated. You have to do something to somehow. And that, like, if that's, if it's not defeated, why would Jesus even go through that? Why wouldn't he just say, believe these five things, and then it's defeated. So to me it shreds the cross, it just shreds the cross. And what Christ did for us when we're like, and they're like, well, look at all the evil around. I'm like, yeah, because people don't believe that it's defeated. And that that's where Jesus said, you know, the darkness will not quench the light. It will not. But it says there is darkness, but what's light do. It's always pushing against the darkness. And so, but that has nothing to do with what he did. I mean, he defeated death and Hades. And when you say that he didn't like, you have to believe these things, then you're basically saying you saved yourself at the end of the day. It's like your belief saved you. And that's why I think that's heresy. I honestly do, because it's, it's stripping the cross and the resurrection, because this isn't linear. That's why Jesus said now Satan has been cast out now and they kept going back to the cross. That's what revelation is. It's always going back to the cross and you know, don't give an empire, don't give into religion because it's already been defeated here at the cross. And so that's where I just think when, when people, we keep adding to this message, when it's like, no, he did this, he defeated. And I believe the good news he did it and your life will follow. And even if it doesn't, it's defeated and you're living a lie like, Ty, why do you think Jesus had to die? What did he save us from ourselves? Myself.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I don't think I need to really restate you guys did such a good job of that. Um, I just, yeah, when I'm so kind of, um, taken back by the fact that I needed saving from me first and foremost, you know? And so I just that's, that's good enough for me. Yeah. He, uh, he died to save me from myself and death and sin and all that. So, yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, we hope you're enjoying the conversation on the zoo town podcast today. Uh, just quick reminder that likes shares and stars. I don't know. I don't know if he can get us stars, but basically give us a review wherever you're listening to this. Uh, this goes a long way as far as promoting the content into our city and beyond, and we hugely appreciate it. So thanks again for listening and joining the conversation.
Speaker 2:Um, and we will do a podcast on a term
Speaker 3:Of theories eventually. Um, Pete will have to be in on that one cause he's just super, super smart on that stuff. Um, the other question, which is a good one, cause I brought this up was the word eternal that we have translated in English as, uh, as eternal, but it comes from the Greek[inaudible], um, and like Bryce said, you can Google anything and some guy will say, this is eternal for sure. Um, and then other people won't. So that is, uh, that is a tough word. Um, and basically from again, theologians around the world, they all wrestle with this. Um, but the thing that our listeners need to know about the Greek language is, um, the word [inaudible], isn't just a time word. Like we think of everything in eternal, it's more of a quality word. Meaning w it's a word that says like, no matter what happens, you're not getting out of this. Like, God, God is going to finish the job. Like he's going to purify, he's going to restore. And there is no amount of time that's going to stop him from doing it. It's a quality word. Like a refiner's fire is like, the fire will not go out until the silver is totally purified. So we look at it as a time word, but you know, again, theologians will agree on this. It's more of a quality of the work, you know, a quality of something that God is doing. So again, revelation the smoke rises forever and ever and ever. It just means that in Greek to us, that means forever and ever to the Greek. That just means like for all eternity, that is being, uh, ratified, like evil is being done with like it's evil is not going to exist. It's going to go out forever into space or whatever that looks like. It doesn't mean that person is going to be, you know, wrapped for all eternity. And, you know, we kind of talked about that in our homology video. Like that's just odd to think that God would like regenerate people's skin to torture them some more. And that just it's. So anyways, it's, it's more of a quality term. Um, do you guys have any input on that? That's pretty self-explanatory in some ways, but
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think, I think there's definitely, I can see why it's a struggle for people to kind of dig into that one. Um, there was one, one of the questions I think mentioned how, uh, in one verse it's, it's used to describe both, uh, punishment and life, you know? So then the question was like, well, if the punishment is only in their mind temporary, or until it's finished, then what about the, the life like, then it's like, so the idea of being like, well, if hell is only for a season or for a time, then what about heaven then? Does it has heaven just for a season or time? Or why do we take, you know, why would we look at that differently? And I think that's, you know, that's an interesting point to make. Uh, I, I think one of the things that, that comes to mind when I, when I read it is that, uh, is that it's not necessarily even putting a defined end on it. Right. So that's why everlasting kind of works because it's like, well, if it's without end, then we can see how that becomes everlasting. Yeah. Um, but because it's not defined at the end, it doesn't mean that it is without end. It's almost like until it's completed. Yeah. That's a quality term. And so you can, so you can read that there where yeah. Like the, the, the punishment isn't necessarily saying the punishment will last this long, or it's almost like it's going to be there. It's, it's free to be open-ended right. Because it, however long it may take, um, and this would be the point of view that like maybe someone who believes, um, in like ultimate reconciliation would say like, yes, the punishment will be as long as it takes for people to finally come around and receive God's love. And so in that sense, it's, open-ended, there's not like a timeframe put on it, but, um, we would take that without end to mean everlasting as in the punishment will go on forever. Um, so, so I think that's, that's one way that, that you can kind of reconcile the terms without, um, you know, and, and obviously, like I said, it's always tricky because how you approach it, like whatever you bring into it influences how you want to like how you want to see it and read it. And I think you have to really read a lot of voices to kind of get the full picture. Um, cause even that word for punishment, they're Colossus. It's like, that's another one that I think, you know, there's some hot debate on the internet about divine chastisement or retributive or restorative. That's really what it comes down to. And so some people will say, oh, it's not that at all. It's this, um, it's just punishment. Well, you know, dig in and, and, and read it a plethora of voices because there's, you know, you stop as soon as you find somebody that agrees with you, you're gonna, you're gonna miss the depth of it. And I think that's, what's hard for us in, in English, like trying to go back to these words. Um, it's, like you said earlier about the Greek lexicon, where as you see the different ways that it was used, it almost like brings a picture to the word. That's a lot more, there's a lot more depth to it. And then last there's like, mean Lang to the Greek. It means this is that it's like, well, in this case we used that word, you know, or we interpreted it this way and that way. And then as you kind of like start to see it, it's almost like, it's almost like, uh, like those 3d pictures that you had when you were kids, you know? And you'd like, when your eyes go cross, all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, then the picture pops out and it's like, you start to see the picture of it, pop out. As you read more about the different ways that it's been, that has been interpreted and under well, and that's
Speaker 3:Where the Greek lexicon, this is where people kind of, as you said, it's not just meant to define word. It's meant to give you an overall picture of a word. Right. And again, to to think, like you said, at the beginning, we're going to take our American worldview to this, these words and say, well, that's what it means. Well, as I told Ty, the word suite has been around for a long time in the English language. Now it means like, wow, that's awesome. Imagine going back 200 years ago and being like, that's so sweet, you did that. And they just look at you, like, you're like, God horns growing out of your head. Like, are you drunk? Like, are you okay? Like when I lick it, like, oh, that's so
Speaker 6:Cool, sweet shoes. It's not, it's not cool.
Speaker 3:Proved it. Like, remember back to the future when he kept saying, oh, this is heavy. And a doc Brown's like, is there some like weird weight continue
Speaker 6:In the future? Like that
Speaker 3:Proves it right there. So people take this Greek lexicon and they, they, you got to understand the nuance and the slang and everything of those words. And[inaudible] is this, that's what it is. It's a quality word. Right. And, but again, to all these points, we always go back to who do we know as God, Jesus. Right. Jesus is God. And I think, and I had a guy whom I loved dearly say this. He goes, I think Jesus has an alter ego and he's this bad-ass, who's going to come white people out. I know this guy, he wants to go do that because he wants to go do that. He then says, God is going to, so he's basically created God in his own image. Right. And so then I see Jesus and you just see him over and over and over. And the only people he was really ticked off at were these religious people who wanted everyone to burn. Like he wanted, they wanted the Romans to be destroyed. And he's like, no, that's not me. So is he again, like I said, my server, was he going to be Jekyll and Hyde, then all of a sudden flip a switch and be like, oh yes. Now it's time to do this. So there's just so much more going on there with these words. But at the end of the day, I look at the person of Christ and I look at him saying suffer, not the children from coming to me and all kinds of stuff. And you're like, I don't, I don't see him doing that. So there's gotta be something else going on there. Well, I think
Speaker 4:This is why it circles back toward the beginning of our discussion about literal versus the spirit of the thing. Um, you know, when I look at a word like Annie OSS or anything like that, I think of perfection in as a quality of who our God is. Um, you know, and therefore through that lens, I can say his punishment will be for the perfect time. And his restoration will be for the perfect time. And those can be different things, um, because of who he is, you know, they don't have to be all eternity in its most literal American sense, um, being every day for, for ever and ever, they can be for his perfect season or time. Um, and that's kind of been my approach to that
Speaker 3:Kind of like the thousand year rule that we were talking about. Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's just, it's so much different than we view it now. And it's the same with Christ, right? And like when these words are attributes of Christ and I think Christ knows us, obviously he created us. We were just talking about how we love to take things literal. What if he said, what if he wrote it down and said, okay, if you have this many affairs, then you get 150 years in hell. Some people would one that wouldn't stop people, but two they'd be like, I can handle it. I can do it better. I can handle that. So that's why it's such an open-ended thing is because he knew we would want to be like on both ends too, because if you want to use grace, you can be like, eh, I'll still do it. That's not that bad. And that's not good either.
Speaker 4:Right. I, I think the message of the book of job is kind of point poignant here. You know, when you see God has grace and then Jobe sits down and pouts about it, like he's like sitting on the hill, waiting for the firestorm, you know, like, oh, Johnny job or not job. Uh, Jonah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Strike that from the record. Yeah. Jonah, where he's just sitting there like waiting like, oh my gosh, you know what? Like, like, get it started. God, I did my part and I can burn them. And you see it in bringing out the sun and kill me. You're saving these people. I wonder, I wonder how many attitudes there will be. Yeah. If, if it doesn't go down the way people expect it, you know, lights like the best line in the old Testament where Joan is like, I knew you were
Speaker 6:A God full of grace and mercy. You would have grace on them. Irritated.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But, but what, you know, how many Christians, you know, let's just put it out. Let's put the hypothetical out there. Okay. Let's say eternal, conscious torment doesn't happen. Then the lake of fire is something other than what people expect. Why
Speaker 6:Did we do all this? Yeah. I've heard that.
Speaker 4:I've heard that so many times. Well then what's the point? What's the point? And I'm like, I'm like, wow. Like you're literally, you're following God just to save your butt in, in the afterlife. Yeah. That's it.
Speaker 3:Well, that's the only thing. That's the only thing you're getting out of this. That's an American view. We want to be the winners. We want to be in power. We want to be number one.
Speaker 4:We want people that we don't like or don't agree with or think are wrong to suffer. Yeah. It's it's like James and John and they're like, should we call down fire from heaven? And Jesus is like, you don't,
Speaker 3:Which says a lot about the old Testament that those guys that's where Greg Boyd's great where he said, he thinks those things happened. But he goes, I believe God gave the profits a lot of power and they had the choice how to use it or not. Yeah. So they could have used it to destroy people. What if the Elijah and them were like, you know what? You're forgiven. God loves you. You're forgiven. Instead of calling down fire. Like, so I agree with him. It's like in, God's like, okay, well that was your choice. And it didn't move humanity forward in any way whatsoever. So, but then again, we're, we're at this today in America, like God God's shows a nation, he's going to rain down fire. Well, on Vegas, he's going to rain fire on Vegas, but not, not Missoula Montana.
Speaker 6:He ran down a hurricane on new Orleans
Speaker 3:Artists, the whole eighth ward. I mean, yeah. And then like, you're gonna get show grace to the eighth
Speaker 6:And ward. We knew you choke her. It's been
Speaker 4:A while since you're the new owner, hurricane just missed by a little,
Speaker 3:I want to piggyback on what you said earlier, because that was a question. If hell's not eternal, what about heaven? And again, that word is quality. So that doesn't bug me because I think the quality of heaven's going to be sick. So that doesn't bug me when you understand that. But I guess what I said earlier is some people have this view, like we're going to go to heaven and like, we just it's done. And we were like little robots. And I'm like, I think if he's restoring all things that means, you know, Adam and Eve had jobs, they had work, they had, you know, en garden. It has choice. You can't believe in fallen angels who had a choice to either follow Satan or follow God in ha in chose poorly from Indiana Jones. Uh, and then think we're going to get up there. And he says, we're going to be like, you know, like the angels or whatever you're going to be like, I think we're gonna have a choice. Yeah. So I think that scares people because they're like, I just gotta get through this life. And then I never want to make a mistake again. And I'm like, I don't, I just don't do heaven like that. Cause that's not a relationship. Yeah. What's your thoughts in that eternal heaven first eternal? Well,
Speaker 4:Uh, so you know, the, an Irish-ness would talk about how, um, you know, we talk about hell with Gahanna and how the fire never went out. Right. And so, so you use that for these internal, um, you put eternal there and you look at people will throw their garbage into this fire that would keep going. And I, the thing I think is interesting there is that the fire kept on going, but you didn't come back the next day and still find your garbage there. Yeah. So, so just because even if the word eternal is eternal, even if it's ever like, there's a fire that never goes out where, where along the way we got the fact that people that would go there would be there forever. I'm not entirely sure where that would even come from. Um, the other thing I think is interesting is that we, I think the reason Jesus always talked in parables is because you're trying to take an eternal God and put them into a finite language. Yeah. And we've been talking to ants, right. We can only do so much. You can only express so much. And it's like, um, you know, up a photo can, can tell you something about, um, about the way, uh, an event took place. A, um, a painting can tell you a lot more. Yeah. Because it can give you the heart and the X and express it differently. And I think that's the way we're trying to, um, we go back to this apocalyptic hyperbole and we go, yeah, I can only express so much to you. And so this, like, is it eternal? Is it an, isn't it, I mean, what do we, what do we do with that language? Because even in the Greek, even if we could understand it fully, what intended to say, we're still con it's like that we're looking through a glass dimly or whatever that talks about. Like, we can only understand so much. And at some point you just have to trust that God is good.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And what was one of Paul's favorite words? Mystery. Yeah. And that was the apostle Paul. He was like, ah, it's just, I kind of see it, but when I die, I will be face to face with him and I'll know. Yeah. It
Speaker 4:Seems, I was just thinking about how the, how the disciples would have understood what Jesus was saying when he talked about the age to come or whatever, like they were still locked into this idea that Jesus was going to set up, uh, an earthly kingdom. Um, I think when they heard the age to come, they weren't thinking, oh, heaven. After we die, they were thinking like, yeah. Once Jesus kicks
Speaker 6:Back. Yeah. And then we're, we're in the kingdom and we're, you know, we're like his right-hand
Speaker 4:Man and yeah. And so, which is
Speaker 3:Why the disciples said, like, who can I, who's going to sit next to you in the kingdom. Right. They didn't mean heaven. Yeah. And I think
Speaker 4:That's, what's interesting is that we just assume, uh, you know, Jesus' words were so clear that, that they understood, he's talking about heaven and hell here. Um, and yet it appears that they kind of made it through all of that. Still thinking what Jesus was talking about was when he sets up kingdom and Rome and you know that the Jews are back on top. So it must not have been as literal and clear as, as we think otherwise, why would the disciples not have got like, oh, he means like when we die and then we go to heaven and it's like, they were just thinking like, yeah. When Jesus sets up his kingdom, he's going to be like, who was with me and who was against me. And those people are getting punished in Gahanna and we're going to, you know, that, that's how it reads to me oftentimes. And so I'm like, now we're so confident. We're so confident. Like, no, we know what Jesus meant, you know?
Speaker 3:And I'm like the people he was talking to didn't get it. I know they were still, still surprised he died. Yeah. They were like, wait,
Speaker 6:What happened? This is not how the plan works. Just
Speaker 3:A thousand times I'm going to do this. And, but what I love about it is even imagine the questions they had when he walks through the door and, you know, Thomas touch. And he just, he just goes, peace, be with you. And then he goes, just hang around for 50 days. Cause something's coming. And then they disobeyed him then too. And they went fishing, but you know, and then even after that, after they went fishing, he didn't rebuke them for going fishing. He gets, they get to the shore and he's making a meal for them. And it's just, it's so he's so much different than we, we try to put him in this American man
Speaker 4:Ascends to heaven. And they're staring after, in some doubt at angels show up. And they're like, why are you guys still staring in the sky? And I think there's like this disbelief, like, no, we thought now was the time we thought he was gonna, you know, we thought this was it. We were ready
Speaker 3:To go. And here we are 2000 years later, still staring at the sky. Yeah. Hmm. Like waiting this to go down. And he's like, I told you exactly what to do here. Everything's going to be fine. I got, I defeated death and Hades, but yeah, kingdoms now I'm redeeming this place. And it's like, no, if you could just burn this place to the ground and started all over. Like even that Peter verse, this is what got me to, when I was reading that Peter verse that people always use, well, you know, God is just being patient because he wants all to come to repentance. So that's what everyone uses. I'm like, okay, first off, I think Peter was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem there. Like I just, I think he was being, talking about them, but because Peter was a preacher to the Jews, that's what he was. But let's just say it wasn't, if you're being patient for all to repent, then why would you allow billions of more people to be born? Because every time they're born, your patients has to go further because you have to give them time to repent. Does that make sense? Like, yeah. Like when you read that verse, it's like, well, he just being patient for everyone in the world to repent. I'm like, but there's like millions of people being born at this moment. Right. So why wouldn't he just end the birth process and say, okay, this is the end. You got one
Speaker 4:Last, all there is. But so
Speaker 3:There's even that passage, I'm like, there's so much more going on there.
Speaker 4:Yeah. There will never be a time when everyone can repent because there will always be children and babies that are like below the cognitive reasoning ability to repent and yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And that was like, just logically speaking. That was big for me even like when people are like, you know, God's given us a path to salvation. I agree with that. And he's it. But there's tons of people for 2000 years. Who've never heard. And so, you know, what about them? Like it's just, or was, is this going to go a lot longer than we think it's going to go? Like we've got another 8,000 years going down here cause that's nothing to God. Right. Right. So to think like every generation is like, this is the end times. And I go, yeah, because that started at the cross and the resurrection. And I just, again, we just have this such a weird view of time when it comes to this stuff. So, uh, I did want to end with something that happened after the hell ology video, a pastor in town who will rename Nate, who will rename, rename, who will remain nameless, Joe, whatever called me out in a sermon and called our church out. Um, and so I'm going to play this clip and then we're going to discuss it because in this clip he calls a universalism, the worst kind of heresy. Um, and so we're going to discuss it.
Speaker 4:We did make a subtle pitch shift effect on the voice. So as to disguise, uh, the identity of the person in the recording, that's the only change that we made to the recording. Other than that, it's completely, um, off of, uh, their live stream. And, uh, the only thing we would say is that we have no intention of, of starting a war or perpetuating a war with another church or another pastor. Uh, we just wanted to address some of the comments that are made in and have possibly made their way out into the community. Uh, so here's the recording.
Speaker 7:Um, one of the deceptive things that happened, uh, many years ago now was the, uh, the book first came out called the shack, uh, by Paul Young. And it took the, uh, the church by storm. And there was a lot of buy-in to that. And then the movie came out and, uh, no one really knew exactly what he believed doctrinally until he told us. And he wrote a book. Paul Young did entitled lies. We believe about God. And he makes it clear in the book that he wrote that he's a Universalist. And he does, I believe in hell. And he believes, ultimately people all go to heaven. I personally talked to Paul Young and he conferred that confirmed that belief to me personally. And unfortunately he has been one of the men that have, um, influenced, uh, pastor Scott at zoo town. And now he has come out publicly to say he no longer believes in hell. And, um, so I have ordered, uh, 15 copies of this book exposing, and this man wrote a, um, a commentary really on Paul Young's book, exposing why universal is not true. Uh, all, uh, I'll have the books next week. Uh, I would encourage you to buy one if you know, somebody goes to town because, uh, that is not just a doctrine that we differ. That's heresy of the worst guy. And to say that there's no hell goes against everything. Jesus taught, he taught more on hell and you don't have it. So I don't say that lightly. And I don't say that out of any competition. I'm not saying send them here, send them to any of the churches that preach the gospel, where they shouldn't be going there.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So for you listening, I, I take that serious in a sense that, um, that's how people got burned at the stake. And one, it's just a blatant lie. I, if you, he obviously didn't listen to the series. Um, but I do believe in hell. Uh, we believe in hell. We just have a different view of bringing that all together. So that's just a lie. Um, I did call him by the way, and, uh, it didn't get much better from there. Um, but Dan, you were there when he talked to Paul Young, I
Speaker 4:Was there when he talked to Pollyanne how'd that go? Um, you know, it was one of those things where I, it was man, this was over a year ago. It's was like a year and a half ago. Paul Young and Baxter Kruger came into town and did a, um, did a little teaching series thing. And, um, uh, we got to hang out with them for a little bit. And, uh, he, I showed up at, at this place where this event was happening and, uh, and as I walked in the door, you could see this particular pastor just in Paul Young's face, who's like five foot, five pounds. Yeah. All Young's his tiny little dude. And, and I was impressed with his ability to just kind of stand there and take it because the pastor was, I mean, just screaming in his face and kind of, you know, you see, see some of these fights where the people like get their foreheads touching. It's pretty close to that. He's like right up, you know, get his finger up in his face.
Speaker 3:And Baxter Kruger was there and Baxter is not a little guy either. So yeah.
Speaker 4:And, and he just, and basically, uh, I saw Paul Young kind of take the Jesus route, which was really amazing. He didn't stand there and defend himself. He just let him say his piece. And, and then he left and I didn't hear all of, all of the exchange. Um, but as soon as the guy left, they got up and, uh, Paul Young asked everybody to pray for him. He was like, let's pray. Uh, and it wasn't that it wasn't this, like, let's pray that he sees how wrong he is or, you know, how it was like, let's just pray for him. Pray that God blesses that guy. And, or like, uh, your theology can kind of reveal something about who, like who you are and who you see God as. And when, if we're supposed to judge by our fruit, that was a fruit that was like, I don't know I'm with
Speaker 3:Paul. Yeah. Yeah. I guess if I
Speaker 4:Got to pick one of those two, I'm going to pick the guy that was more loving the guy that was, uh, that seemed to act more like Jesus. Yeah. I think what are your guys' thoughts on it? If it, I guess my thought is if, if it, if it was informed, I can understand it, you know, but it just, I guess what bothered me is that I'm like, it wasn't, it wasn't even accurate and there was a lot, yeah. He didn't represent what your views on hell actually are. Um, and so from that perspective, you know, if you're gonna, if you're going to talk about somebody just should be, you should at least be accurate and it wouldn't be hard to be accurate. You would, you were doing it. And I don't know, it might've been, this might've been before midway through my series. So I'm not sure maybe he, you know, maybe he just hadn't got there. Maybe he listen at all. Um, I think, uh, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about universalism in the sense that a lot of people read it, uh, or think of it as, as universalism being, well, it doesn't matter what you do, all roads lead to the same place, you know, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, it's all the same. That's very different. That would be heresy, I think. Um, but that's very different than, uh, than through Christ. All things will eventually be reconciled. And I said
Speaker 3:That in my speech, remember I said, Hammad will bow his knee. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Right. And so, so those are different
Speaker 4:Things. And I, so I can understand how maybe like, uh, you know, you could have a misunderstanding there if you, if you really wanted to. But I feel like the fact that nothing about it was really represented it wasn't, he didn't talk about real universe, like, like ultimate reconciliation through Christ. He used universalism as if in the all roads lead to one place. Since
Speaker 3:I confessed, I don't believe there's a hill. Right.
Speaker 4:He said that, he said that you're, you know, he seemed to imply that you are a Universalist, which was not what you talked about when you espouse your, your views that I lean towards it. I'm sure. Well, I mean, I think, I think most of us have, have that side of us where we're like men, we, we at least hope for ultimate reconciliation. We at least, even if, even if you're like, I don't know that I could say, it's what I believe. You're like, it's what I hope for. I hope God has a way of saving everyone no matter what. So I think, and that's where I was like, it just I'm like if it would have been accurate, if it would have been well-represented, if it would have been, it just came across a slander to me. And I think that's disappointing, but, um, you know, I don't know who this man is. I've never met him. I, I don't want to, I'm not going to judge him, I guess. I just am like, it's, it just made me sad. It made me sad that that's kind of where we're at, where we're like bickering about stuff like that. Yeah. As a church. And I say church, the big church, um, instead of, instead of just doing what Jesus told us to do, so yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, uh, it ultimately, it was just kind of another disheartening representation of what the greater church in Missoula has perpetually done to itself. Um, and as someone who is born and raised in Missoula and his dedicated a fair amount of time to trying to, um, advance the gospel, if you will, in this town, it feels like, um, I've watched so much kind of inner destruction take place, um, that I'm often left with this taste in my mouth that says like, why would anyone who doesn't go to church ever even care what we do? You know? And it just feels like it robs us of our own ability to show the love Christ to each other. If we can't show it to each other, the people we say where we're like in this width, um, why would anyone outside of our, uh, congregations ever be interested in what we have to offer? You know? And, and I fully believe we have the best thing in the world to offer the gospel of Christ and his love and his redemption, um, and all the, the attributes that he is. And we just destroy those the minute we start slinging things at each other. And specifically when it's just, you know, it feels like it's on topics that we're like, that's not the point. And again, I kind of come back to this, uh, like exhausted state. It just feels like, man, if we spent, you know, half as much time actually presenting the gospel as we do, uh, throwing these things around at each other, what could Missoula look like? And so that's, I don't know. That's where I guess my heart sits is it just feels heavy after things like that. And I've seen it, you know, too many times in my opinion too, um, that it just it's tiring. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, and I don't want to take this moment to bash this man. I'm sure, but it's not heresy. I think when, when someone says it's the worst kind of heresy, you don't have a concept of the early church fathers, or even the Bible, like the different spots that we talked about. Um, and that's a big deal. It's a big deal to call someone. He went on to call bill Johnson a heretic too. So I guess I'm in good company, but, um, yeah, it, it kinda, it was just a sadness. Like, do you not have some? And I hear fear. It's like a fear that like, you're trying to draw people to your side, you know, instead of Christ's side. And I guess the one thing I want, no, it's not heresy again. Any church father, if he listened to our sermon series, we mentioned lots of them, the guy who wrote the Nicene creed was a universal list. Um, the AFA nation creed, before that had it in it. Um, but it's more, it's more just like when you get to a point where you say that this isn't the gospel we're presenting at zoo town. I don't know how I can tell people to follow Jesus anymore, which I think is the gospel and the gospel did not mention hell in it that wasn't a part of the gospel. The gospel was Christ was born for a mankind at the incarnation. He died mankind's death. He rose in mankind's place. That is the gospel read acts. I mean, that's how they presented it. And so that's, that's the sad part is when we start, when we start presenting the gospel, as if you don't do this, God's going to torture you for all eternity. I just, I don't see them presenting it that way in the scriptures or Jesus presenting it that way. Um, cause even the sheep and the goats, right? That's about what you do here. That's how, that's how you treat people. So do your work save you or what? So anyways, if you heard this and I don't know, learn, forgive him, I guess. Yeah. God
Speaker 4:For him bless him. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I, I D I just echo that the, the heresy gets thrown around way too much. And I think it's funny. Cause if you look up what, like traditional hairs are, there's like a Catholic version and a Protestant version. And it's basically like the, they're basically like saying, saying each other a heritage, you know? So it's, it's really interesting when you go down the list, you're like, you're like, oh, so if I want to know what Catholics believe, just look up Protestant heresy or, you know, it's like, yeah. And you can see how a lot of it was a reaction to w you know, w when the reformation happened, when there was that time of like, okay, well now we need, we need to like set ourselves aside as distinct. And so, and so they, you know, they very quickly sort of weaponized against each other. Um, yeah. But a lot of those aren't there nothing that that's foundational or that you would, you would die on. No, but you can see them listed as heresies. So I think, I think we just have to be honest with ourselves about like heresy in general. Like it's not a term to be used lightly and it ought to be, um, handled more carefully. I think
Speaker 3:All you gotta do is read what the apostles actually thought heresy was. It was those who denied the resurrection. That's really what it was. And that's the Gnostics, right? The Gnostics and the Jews. And there was minor heresies, but the main thing they were fighting against was those who said, Christ didn't rise from the dead. And so they, they discussed other things and they talked about sin. Absolutely. But they, you know, you never see, you just don't see them throwing that word around like we do today. And again, I'm just looking at like a guy like this being like, have you ever read the early church fathers? Like, is Gregory of Nyssa a heretic? Is it CS Lewis, a heretic? I mean, like, it just, it's just a word that needs to die. And unless if someone denies the resurrection, I'll be like, yeah, that's heresy. Right? Like that's heresy. Um, but yeah, other than that, let's discuss it. But anyways, so that was, uh, one of the results of our hell series, but we love doing it. And we, again, we do this podcast and we do this church for open conversation and dialogue. And
Speaker 1:Our main goal was to present the gospel that Hades has been defeated. Christ is Victor and believe the good news. So thanks boys. Thank you. Thanks.