Join Dr. Rob Sirrine and Erin Lizotte as they discuss the USDA Hop Breeding Program with Dr. John Henning.
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Join Dr. Rob Sirrine and Erin Lizotte as they discuss the USDA Hop Breeding Program with Dr. John Henning.
How did we do? Let us know by visiting https://msu.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_2ctaicwXmWFq0mO
Speaker 1:
This information is for educational purposes only. References to commercial products or trade names does not imply endorsement by MSU extension or bias against those not mentioned. MSU is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer. Michigan State University extension programs and materials are open to all. This work is supported by the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture Crop Protection and Pest Management Program and through the North Central IPM Center. Any opinions, findings, conclusions, or recommendations expressed in this podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the view of the US Department of Agriculture.
Speaker 2:
[inaudible 00:00:44] You're listening to the MSU hot podcast with extension educators, Erin Lizotte and Dr. Rob Sirrine.
Rob Sirrine:
That was good.
Speaker 2:
[inaudible 00:01:07] no sense.
Rob Sirrine:
Absolutely no sense. Okay. [inaudible 00:01:14].
Speaker 2:
John [inaudible 00:01:16].
Rob Sirrine:
Okay. Welcome everyone. I want to introduce you to this third podcast in our... What is it called? The [inaudible 00:01:29] podcast. Or should we-
Speaker 2:
No. It's the MSU Hop Podcast.
Speaker 4:
Sorry. MSU hop podcast. Let's go formal.
Speaker 2:
You guys [inaudible 00:01:37] hop cast was taken. Can you believe that? The hop cast is taken. We know there are better names. We can't use them. So we're all just going to have to [crosstalk 00:01:48].
Rob Sirrine:
I actually thought of that name several years ago before, but... I have it written down on a piece of paper with the date, but... No, today we're very excited to be talking to Dr. John Henning. He is a hop breeder with the USDA Agricultural Research Service and Oregon State University and he has just a wealth of experience. It's a really cool conversation, touches on some of the new technology, the whole breeding program from start to finish, how long that takes, and some of the new cultivars coming down the pike.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think he's one of those industry members that has such a long-term perspective, having been in this role for 25 years now. And obviously we like anyone who releases new hop varieties that [inaudible 00:02:45] growers can grow. So we're big fans of Dr. John Henning, and we hope you enjoy this interview with him.
Rob Sirrine:
Well, it's our pleasure today to be discussing hops with Dr. John Henning. He's a research geneticist at the USDA Agricultural Research Service in Corvallis, Oregon. Welcome John.
John Henning:
Thank you guys for having me on the show. This is an awesome opportunity.
Rob Sirrine:
Well, we've been following your work for years now, the breeding program and with, I guess, the most recent release of Triumph that a lot of growers really, really like I'm told. Can you tell us a little bit about your research program and how long you've been at your position in breeding hops?
John Henning:
Sure, yeah. So I started breeding hops back in 1996 actually. I took over over the program from a fellow named Al Haunold, who had been doing the breeding for many, many years himself. And the actual program itself has been in existence since 1930s, in Corvallis.
Speaker 2:
Wow.
John Henning:
So I've been breeding hops for that long. Breeding hops is something that you have to learn how to do. It's just not as obvious as starting with corn or something like that, or pretty much everything's laid out for what you should do. So it took me a while to get things moving, but I think I'm finally getting the hang of it.
My research program itself also includes a fair amount of genomics work too. And so this involves identifying genes and genetic markers that are linked to traits of interest, including flavoring components, disease resistance, and growth habits. And now we're starting to look at abiotic stress of heat, as well as drought. So it's a combination of both, doing a lot of breeding and doing a lot of genomics work too.
Rob Sirrine:
And is that genomics work... One of the questions we were going to ask is on next generation sequencing, which I know nothing about, is that what you're talking about right now or is that a totally different topic?
John Henning:
No, it does involve the next generation sequencing and even the next, next generation sequencing, which I can explain either now or we can wait until we get to that question.
Rob Sirrine:
Yeah, sure. Go ahead now. Yeah, we're open. We can be adaptable.
John Henning:
Okay. So originally the term next generation sequencing was looking at where we were doing this high throughput sequencing of very short pieces of DNA, a hundred base pair. And then throwing all of those little short pieces together and coming up with consensus sequence data. That was the initial, the first stage of next generation sequencing. The next stage after that, we were able to actually sequence pieces of DNA that were up to 30,000 to 40,000 base pairs, as opposed to that 100 base pairs. And what that allowed us to do is to sequence through areas of the genome that were highly repetitive, and so that repetition was breaking up those small pieces and the computers didn't know what to do with all those small pieces because they looked so similar. What that 30,000 to 40,000 base pair sequencing allowed us to do then was to sequence through the water to hit that island to get to that next island. And so that would be the second generation of this next generation.
And the most recent implementation is where we've learned how to put, if you will, flags along the way of sequencing these long pieces of DNA. And then after the fact collecting those flags and then orienting those 30,000 to 40,000 base pair sequences in the correct area and the correct location. So, with that we can then assemble a whole chromosome at a time. And we have recently done that with hop and so now we have the 10 chromosomes sequenced and all of the genes that are found on hops, we now have that. So it's a pretty exciting time to be working in genomics, particularly in hops.
Rob Sirrine:
So in practical terms, because you have that information now, like you said, you can just pinpoint one of those spots or a flag, I guess you said and say, okay, we want this because it's resistant to powdery mildew or it's drought tolerant. And then you find that in a certain mother or father, and then that's how you look for what you're going to be breeding, or do I have that wrong?
John Henning:
Nope. You've got that spot on. I mean, that's one use for it. The other one is when we make a cross, there's segregation in the offspring for that particular trait and so we can then use that genetic marker to select the offspring that we want to keep, rather than having to put everything out into the field. It saves time as well as money because we figured out it takes about $20 per genotype per year to evaluate a hop plant in the field. And that's really expensive. So any way that we can cut down the number of individuals that we are putting out into the field for our breeding nurseries is a bonus.
Rob Sirrine:
Got it. Yeah. So that would probably be good to explain that whole process and how it's... I think people, when they think about breeding, oh, we just cross some and then the next year we'll have what we want or we'll choose some and then we'll put those... It's not anything like that, right?
Speaker 2:
That sounds great.
John Henning:
Yeah. You're spot on there. It's definitely not that way. It's gotten better, but it's still a 13 to 15 year process from making your cross to actually releasing that variety. And so, I'll go through the process here.
So, year one, we make the cross, collect the seed, and then we treat it with a cold vernalization, which means we plant the seed and get it moistened, and then let it sit for six to eight weeks under that condition and that breaks the sort of dormancy in the seed. And then we bring that out and put it in a greenhouse and germinate the seedlings. And then after about two weeks, we then inoculate them with powdery mildew spores, and we cull or throw out all of the individuals that get powdery mildew with the assumption that anything left over is potentially resistant.
And we actually do that a couple of times with different races of powdery mildew, because there's multiple races. And then once we do that, we're potting up the plants into larger pots and then about May, June-ish, or actually May is best, we inoculate with downy mildew. We basically follow the same process that way. With downy mildew, we don't have necessarily races, but we try and collect a broad representation of the spores from all over the Pacific Northwest and then make our selections there. And then we put them out onto a low trellis, about six to eight foot tall trellis in very close spacing and then we let them grow up and we select for the females.
And then that year we let them over winter again, get natural infection of downy mildew, come back in the spring, and now we're in the spring of that third year. And we, again, throw out any downy mildew resistors, [inaudible 00:12:12] lines. And then those plants get transplanted out into what we call single hill or single genotype nurseries where they're on a spacing of anywhere from five to seven feet apart from each other.
Then for the next three years after that, we are making selections on vigor and hop cone characteristics and aroma, and we'll be harvesting those that look real promising, collecting data on their disease resistance, as well as growth habits. And then after that three years we make selections. So we may have put 600 seedlings out into that field initially, and from that we'll select 25. And that 25 then go into what we call advanced trials. And that consists of about anywhere from 15 to 30 individuals [inaudible 00:13:13] out in single plots or replicated plots. And at this point we can start doing some pilot brewing because we have enough material to actually brew with, with several of our cooperator brewers. And this is particularly with Hop Research Council, but also the Hop Quality Group too.
And then after three years or four years at that stage, and several rounds of brewing, decisions are made whether or not to expand that into what we call elite trials status. And that's where we are growing it out in two acre plots in multiple states. And that then provides about anywhere from four to 5,000 pounds of hops that a wide range of brewers can utilize for their brewing purposes and get the feedback from brewers, as well as the grower who's growing these things. And then finally a decision is made as to whether or not to release it. Typically speaking, if it makes it to that elite stage, we've gone through all these processes and it's more than likely going to be released as a variety. It probably would not just be denied at that stage. So there's a lot of checks and balances along this process.
Rob Sirrine:
So it starts off with... When you say you're making a cross, do you take a male, a known male flower, and then you put that in a baggie with the cone? Or how does that work?
John Henning:
Yeah, sorry. I probably should've mentioned that. So initially what I'm doing is... One of the things I try to do is make wide crosses, meaning that I check the genetics of the male and the genetics of the female and I make sure that they're not closely related or in-bred. And in many cases I already have the pedigree of those individuals so I can tell whether or not they would be closely related. And so the wider the genetic distance between parents, the better the offspring vigor. It's just a basic of genetics that we know. So that's one of the purposes. But the other is that throughout the years we've been collecting data on the male lines as to whether or not they produce females that have, let's say, high alpha acid, or they produce female offspring that are high yielding or other various traits or genetic resistance to downy mildew or powdery mildew.
And so another focus that I've been doing as of late is combining genetic resistances to the different races of powdery mildew into crosses. So maybe I have a male cross that's resistant to race V2, and I want to cross that with a female that has resistance to, let's say V6, which is the virulent strain six.
And so I know which those races are and so I'll make crosses with that. But yeah, generally speaking, we have these little vials, we go out in the field, cut a bunch of arms of male flowers off, and stick them in these real large clear cylinders with wax paper at the bottom and let them sit overnight. All the pollen falls out of the flowers. We collect that pollen into vials, and then we've already bagged our females so that they don't get pollinated while we're waiting for the female to be receptive and cut a hole in that little bag and drop that pollen in and shake it. And away we go, our cross is made.
Rob Sirrine:
Wow, that's pretty cool. And so you're doing 600 of those each year? Or how does that work? Then it goes to 25, few years later, and then maybe you go to what, three or four promising ones?
John Henning:
Yeah, I think in a nutshell. So we're doing 600, or thereabouts, offspring. Typically those arise from anywhere from 20 to 30 different crosses.
Rob Sirrine:
Okay.
John Henning:
Yeah. So we make about 20 to 30 different crosses and then from all of that, we make our selections. And I should add in there that we're starting to integrate the use of molecular markers for our selection as well. So it's not just observations now. So we're starting to move forward in that respect.
Speaker 2:
I think that's such exciting work. I remember we have a similar project MSU was involved in, the RosBREED project, looking at finding those genetic markers for desirable traits in apples. And, of course, that's an even more protracted breeding type horizon then hops are. But I'm really fascinated to hear about the use of those genetic markers and speeding up that process of selection. I'm interested to hear, and I think when we start talking about breeding this topic always comes up, but the applicability of genetically modified crops when it comes to selecting for, or gene stacking for resistance or for tolerance to environmental factors and the perspective on that, or the possibility of that for hops in the future.
John Henning:
Currently, there's no effort to do any breeding with any genetic modification in hop. And the reason for that is the consumer is strongly against it. So, that's the bottom line. And it's not just an issue of, there's a few people that are against GMO hops, it's like it's almost universal here in the United States. So in that sense, there's not really a strong effort to go forward with that. In fact, there's no effort to go forward with that.
Speaker 2:
[inaudible 00:19:57].
John Henning:
But with that said, there are newer techniques out there that people have been reading about and one would be the CRISPR-Cas9 technology. There's some real benefits from pursuing that research, particularly from the standpoint of once we try to identify genes that are involved in different pathways, one of the easiest ways to actually verify that a gene is indeed the gene that we really need to be focusing on for breeding purposes would be a CRISPR-Cas9, where we knock out that gene in an offspring and just see, okay, hey, did this affect what we're looking at? And so that sort of research is probably going to be moving forward. I do know the Oregon State University has recently been awarded a grant to do CRISPR-Cas9 research with a fellow postdoc who has already done this work in other crops, coming to the Department of Forestry, I believe, they're going to be doing that work.
And my colleague, Dave Gent and myself are collaborating on this project, but we're not actively participating in it. And that's that's specifically because of the consumers having some strong issues with it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. If people are interested in learning more about CRISPR, actually this podcast radio lab did an excellent episode on this discovery of this new technology and new concept. And it's really, really fascinating and they do a great job of explaining it to people who are not geneticists like myself. So I was really fascinated to hear about that, and it just seems like there's so many possibilities there. A lot of them in the ag sector, definitely, but [crosstalk 00:22:05] so many opportunities.
John Henning:
Exactly. Yeah.
Rob Sirrine:
It sounds like a different thing than say taking a gene from a flounder fish and putting it in a tomato. If you're talking about like, we think this is the gene that is contributing to powdery mildew resistance in this plant. And then you knock it out and see if it gets powdery. Is that what you're talking about in that [crosstalk 00:22:27]?
John Henning:
Exactly. Yeah. You're not introducing any foreign DNA into something. It's simply, if you will, micro-dissecting a gene either by promoting it to actual express at a higher level or by knocking out the function of it. So yeah, it's some fascinating technology that I could never have imagined 15, 20 years ago.
Speaker 2:
Yes. Yup.
Rob Sirrine:
I've got a question on how has what you're breeding for changed? I think you think you said you started around '96? That's right around when craft beer just was starting to take a hold in the US. Have you seen changes in what brewers are looking for, and growers for that matter, from say high alpha hops to more different aromas? Or what have you seen over the last 20 years?
John Henning:
Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating change actually. When I first started, there was an incredible push to develop the super alphas. The goal of 20% alpha and 20 bales per acre at each bale being 200 pounds, so that was a real strong goal. The other goal was to replace older varieties. And so there was a huge push to replace a variety called Willamette with something that was higher yielding and didn't have the cyclical yield issues that Willamette had, as well as some of the disease issues. And so for years and years, that's all we were doing, my colleague, Steve [Kenny 00:24:30] up at Washington State University and myself. And to replace a variety is pretty well near impossible because every time you make a cross, you lose 50% of the genes or they get recombined and so, to come up with something that's exactly alike in flavor, but has dramatically higher yields or better resistance is pretty hard, pretty darn hard to do.
So that was always a real frustration. Then along came the craft brewers and all of a sudden now they were like, hey, give us something that's different. That's all we want, we want something that's different, that has high yield, that makes great beer and it has to be flavorful beer. It can't just be moderate, like, yeah, that's a pleasing beer. It has to be out there.
And so the interesting thing about hop breeding is that you can make almost any cross and come up with an offspring that's totally unique from anything else that's out there. That's one of the fascinating things about hop is that there's so much genetic diversity even within a cross. So as an example, the cross that I used to make Triumph was a cross that was made in the year 2000 for a high alpha hop. So I used, as the parent, this hop variety called Nugget, that's a higher alpha hop. It, itself, the offspring itself did not approach that 14 to 15% alpha, but the aromas of that hop were really something nice and unique and pleasant and so on, and the yields were incredible. So I held onto it. And then now we are in this craft brewing era and it's a highly desired hop because of those things. But it didn't...
I made the cross for alpha, but it came out as an aroma. I don't know if that...
Rob Sirrine:
Yeah, that's great. I've heard a similar story with, I think Comet, which was developed a long time ago too and people at the time didn't like it because it was too aromatic or something like that. Times have changed.
John Henning:
Well, even before that Cascade, originally. It was made back in the 1950s. And when the large brewers got a hold of Cascade, they thought, oh, this is just too aromatic, we can't use this. And so it sat there for 15 years until, I think, it was Sierra Nevada came along and they tried it out and they thought this is the greatest thing ever and started their pale ale with it. So yeah, there's been some major changes.
Speaker 2:
So when we think about these releases that are those elite selections, as they reach the end of the process, can you explain a little bit about how those become available to growers and what that process looks like? Because I think that's for people who maybe don't know these are public varieties that are being created and so they are a little more accessible than some of the other varieties that are out there that might be of interest to growers.
John Henning:
Yeah. And actually, this whole process is evolving right now because we're trying to make improvements on how these public releases are pushed forward, and ensuring that equal access is available to everybody, and there's sufficient amounts for everybody. And so I had a phone call with industry representatives last week and we were sitting down, okay, how can we make sure that there's sufficient amounts of rootstock for growers once that release is made, and how can we ensure that the release just doesn't catch everybody without any access. So, brewers get ahold of the hops from an elite line and they think this is the greatest thing ever, I want to start buying 50,000 pounds of this. Well, you can't because we only have 5,000.
Speaker 2:
Oh right.
John Henning:
So a lot of mistakes have been made in the past, and a lot of that is my just not understanding processes well enough. And so we're making that better. But I think the process now that we're going to do moving forward is, even before a variety is released, we start notifying people and propagators, hey, this is a line that we're pretty certain is going to be released and it would be wonderful if you could start ramping up production of this. And so they will then obtain clean plant network supplied products that are virus and [inaudible 00:30:02] free and use that as their mother plants and start ramping up these lines so that once it's released they're prepared to give out sufficient quantities for everybody to use. So I think you'll see a better process moving forward, where there's sufficient notification.
Speaker 2:
Well, that's really exciting. I know when anything new comes out, all the growers want to try it, all the brewers want to try it.
John Henning:
Exactly.
Speaker 2:
So it's really fun to be able to test out these new things, to taste these new hops that are coming out. So that's really exciting.
John Henning:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Sirrine:
John, I have a question about [inaudible 00:30:48]. We're really interested in that in Michigan, and I know some of the other newer states that have gotten into growing hops because the brewers are telling us that the flavor is different and that can be good and bad. If you're really interested in getting a Cascade hop that has all the properties and the aromatics that you expect and you buy one from say, New Zealand, it's going to be totally different. I read an interesting interview I think you had with Stan Hieronymus, or at least he was maybe quoting you, where you were discussing why this, what were some of the factors for hops of the same genetics, having different flavor profiles. And I think you talked about the environment and epigenetics and... Oh, something dropped in my office here. No problem. [inaudible 00:31:40] And methylated DNA. And that, can you explain that to the lay person? Because it's something that I thought was really, really interesting, how different genes might be switched on.
John Henning:
Okay. So in addition to DNA, there are other, if you will, compounds that are attached to the DNA and those compounds, they're called histones, they will either break off from that DNA and that DNA then opens up for the expression of that gene or they remain closed so that that DNA, that gene, is not expressed. And the environment plays a huge impact on whether or not those genes are expressed. And so you might have, let's say, just for example, a gene for high linalool in a specific line, but for whatever reason, the environment that it's being grown in, the methylated compound, these histones are stuck there on that gene because of the environment.
And so that high linalool doesn't get expressed there. In a different environment, the environmental factors might be such that the methylation, the histones are opened up and that gene gets expressed. And so the environment is what affects what we call the epigenetic expression of traits. And this is something we even see in humans too. There's longterm effects. I mean, part of the whole study into problems like PTSD are thought to be related to epigenetic expression. And so the environment played an effect upon that person's epigenetics to create this sort of scenario.
But I think it's more obvious in plants because plants are stuck in a single environment and so that's all they can do. So the combination of the epigenetics, as well as the water that the plant's taking up, the nutritional factors within the soil, the day length, a lot of these different factors will affect ultimately the overall flavor of that hop.
Rob Sirrine:
And even light wave length and soil microbes, and maybe not one of those things, but those all... Is there an entourage effect happening?
John Henning:
Yes.
Rob Sirrine:
Yeah, I think that's very interesting. So even if you think, oh, well, there's a correlation between temperature and this linalool like you were saying, well, that doesn't necessarily mean that that alone is causing that. There could be multiple factors happening.
John Henning:
Yes. Yeah, definitely.
Rob Sirrine:
Well, I think that, that is... I love that area and I'd love to do more research in that. I guess just to followup John, what's your favorite style of beer? Probably something with hops I'm guessing.
John Henning:
Yeah. Yeah. But I get asked that question quite a bit and my answer is always disappointing to people because I-
Speaker 2:
Is it vodka? Is vodka your favorite [inaudible 00:35:43] beer?
John Henning:
No, it depends upon the time of the year. If it's summertime I'm going to want a lager or a Pilsner, something light, something refreshing to drink. But as the days get shorter and the nights get longer and colder, I like more of a maltier type beer. And I sometimes even will go out and get a Porter, but I personally, I'm not a huge fan of stouts. There's not enough hop in them for me. It's got to have some hop in it for me to really, really enjoy it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I think you're in good company because pretty much every, all the beer adjacent people we've been talking to, everybody says the same thing. It's like, well, it depends on what I'm eating or what I'm doing.
John Henning:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Those types of things. So yeah, I think that's a great answer.
Rob Sirrine:
Well, that's great, John. Thanks. We really appreciate the time you took to talk with us. Is there anything else that's on your mind that we didn't discuss or that we forgot to ask that you think would be important for our listeners to know about?
John Henning:
Well, sometimes I've been asked the question, what's the most important hop of all time?
Rob Sirrine:
That's a good one.
John Henning:
And that's a hard one to answer. I think the one that had the greatest impact in our current craft brewing industry is Cascade. But certainly, you have to bring into this the whole mixture of Citra. It's made such a huge impact on brewing. And some of the other ones, I don't want to go through and name them all, but... And I guess the other one would be for alpha lines Nugget, because there's been such an effort with high alphas that was the answer back in the early days. So those are some of the ones that I would take are pretty darn important.
Rob Sirrine:
Yeah. I agree with you. Cascade, I think, was one of those that started the craft beer revolution, and then just look at a hop like Citra, which in a relatively short time period has just, number one in acreage, I think, at least in the US now.
John Henning:
It's crazy. Yeah.
Rob Sirrine:
Well, keep up the great work, John.
John Henning:
Well, thank you.
Rob Sirrine:
We'll keep drinking the great beer.
Speaker 2:
If people want to track what you're doing, John, is there a website or something they can check out?
John Henning:
That's a little interesting proposition. I have been trying to get that going, but being part of USDA has not made that real easy. But yeah, we're working on that.
Speaker 2:
All right. Well, great.
Rob Sirrine:
Thanks again for your time.
John Henning:
Thank you guys.
Rob Sirrine:
Yep. Cheers.
John Henning:
Cheers.
Speaker 2:
[inaudible 00:38:51] .Thanks guys. Rob, clean your office. Geez. What is going on over there?
Rob Sirrine:
That was my daughter's easel, it just fell off the couch for some reason. I'm not even [inaudible 00:39:01]. Yeah. I don't know. Probably a ghost.