Ep 154: The Importance of Processing Your Birth Story - Interview with full spectrum doula and therapist Imani Byers-Quarterman

In this episode, Dr. Shannon and Imani Byers-Quarterman discuss the importance of processing your birth story, whether it goes according to plan or not.  They emphasize the need to create a birth plan or preference list, while also acknowledging the unpredictability of birth. They highlight the importance of informed consent and being knowledgeable about interventions and options. They discuss ways to protect your mental space during pregnancy, such as addressing fears, building a supportive community, and surrounding yourself with providers who respect your preferences. They also delve into the process of processing your birth story, including seeking therapy, joining support groups, and using narrative therapy to highlight both the bright moments and the challenges. Processing the birth experience is important for healing and growth. It involves acknowledging the emotions and grief associated with a birth that didn't go according to plan. Writing, therapy, support groups, and movement can all be helpful tools in the healing process. It's important to remember that the outcome of the birth does not define a person's worth as a parent. Words matter, and being mindful of the language used around birth is crucial. Processing the birth story can lead to transformation and a deeper understanding of oneself.
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Resources mentioned:
Ep 113: Interview with Full Spectrum Doula and Perinatal Mental Health Counselor Imani Byers-Quarterman

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:02.804)
Hello, this is the Aligned Birth Podcast. Our birthy topic for today is processing your birth story. This has been on my heart for a minute and I'm really excited to do this as an interview today. So Dr. Shannon, I'm one of the hosts of the show. Rachel is a doula who usually does the show with me, but today we have Imani Byers-Quartermann on and we've had her on before.

but I wanted her on again to talk about processing our birth story. Why is that important? Whether birth unfolded exactly how you wanted or the complete opposite, I think there is something so healing about processing your birth story. And I do wanna touch on, you know, when it doesn't go according to plan, but I wanna talk about how we process it, how we still create a birth plan.

even though our birth preference list will get into the semantics of words. But how we still do that even though we know it may not go according to plan, there's so much in creating that. Ways to process and that's why I wanted to have Imani on today and go through the specifics of that. And I know that's what we're talking about today. And Imani has a perfect skill set that I want for this because...

She is a doula, but she's also a perinatal mental health counselor. And so she can weave these worlds together because I wanted to come at this from not only a standpoint of understanding childbirth education, because she's also a childbirth educator. We're going to talk about birthing from within. She's got the founder of Rebirth Wellness, the co-founder of Rebirth Tribe based in Atlanta. But she's also got the skill set of the mental health aspect of things and how that when we tie that in with the doula work and how...

birth requires a surrendering, a surrendering of mind, body, and spirit, how the mental health tools that she has can play a part in that. And so she's a full spectrum doula, licensed master social worker in the state of Georgia, perinatal mental health certified as well. She's working with birthing from within. We've had her on the show before. She's done so much since we've had her on the show. So I'm sure we'll touch on all of that. She's done well over 80 births now, well over 20 families.

Dr. Shannon (02:26.356)
She's amazing. She's wonderful. She's on the show again today. Welcome my friend.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (02:31.521)
Hello Dr. Shannon, it's always a pleasure to be sharing space with you. Excited to be back.

Dr. Shannon (02:37.44)
Ugh. Yes, I love it. Now, and I was just telling, um, Imani before we started, and then I was like, do you want to add anything to your bio? Because since we've had you on, I know you've, you've done a lot. And we were joking about the, there's several, there's several birth workers that I've had on the show where I sometimes catch myself saying like, oh, you're so busy. And I mean it in like.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (02:48.636)
Hehehehe

I do.

Dr. Shannon (03:03.044)
a good way because you're living out like this purpose and we're talking about how like you're busy but it's filling your cup. It's not depleting and like you're stepping into things and you said you were living in harmony with your purpose. I was like, oh, it's a beautiful way to put it. So you do so much for the birthing community and I love it.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (03:04.622)
Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (03:17.89)
Yes, yes indeed. Yes, I love it as well. And I told you like, yeah, no, keep everything the same. But now I do have my full clinical licensure as a social worker. I'm an LCSW now. I completely forgot about that. And I was like, oh yeah. Well, so that's the main thing. And yes, I did my 100th birth in January, which was.

Dr. Shannon (03:35.4)
See, I knew it. I knew there was something else.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (03:45.622)
beautifully amazing and my first birth that I ever attended was a home birth and so my 100th birth was a home birth and I just had all the feels.

Dr. Shannon (03:54.001)
All the feels.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (03:55.594)
Yes, and a shout out to Moonlight Midwifery. That's who I got to work with for the first time. That was amazing. So yeah, it was just a beautiful, yes. I love, love her energy so much. And yeah, it's been a ride, but it's been such a beautiful ride. I'm so grateful to be able to serve people in this space for sure.

Dr. Shannon (04:02.448)
It's Crystal Bailey, right? Is that who it is? Yeah, uh-huh.

Dr. Shannon (04:17.112)
You're so needed. You are so needed and I love the skill set that you have kind of what we talked about So when we first did okay, so we were your first interview that we did on here. It was um Episode 113 i'm gonna link everything in the show notes that we really went into like your calling How you got into the doula world what that full spectrum doula looks like and then we did touch on Your perinatal mental health aspect, but we also talked a lot about

how to help black women in the birthing community specifically as well too, because there is definitely lacking support, knowledge, everything for that subset. So definitely listen to that episode. Now today, it's like I've mentioned, I wanna go into, I think I wanna start with the potential of like, okay, let's create a birth plan and

Imani Byers-Quarterman (04:46.259)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (04:50.475)
Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (04:57.458)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (05:13.576)
How do you, what are the words that you use? How do you frame it in that it's something where we can release the outcomes? That's something that has come to me. I had, I don't know if you know Amanda Gorman, but she's a childbirth educator as well. She does birthing from within. And when she mentioned that childbirth education class really focuses on not so much focused on the outcomes, like it's.

It's a dip when you look at it that way and I was like, ah, releasing the outcomes. And it reminded me of like all the prayers that you have where you're like, you pray and you've got to like release the outcomes, but you still pray, right? So it's kind of the same thing where you still plan and you still make a preference list. So I wanna go into how do we create that even when birth is unpredictable and what do we gain from creating that plan and that preference list?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (05:51.581)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (06:06.43)
Yeah, and I love that you have been alternating the language between birth plan and preference, right? The language that I tend to use with my clientele is preferences, right? My husband would be the first person to tell you the number one thing I always say is words matter, and they do. I am very intentional about the language that I use with clientele for that reason. A plan makes it seems like this is something that we have to hold to, this is hard, steadfast, right?

But like you are alluding to the beautiful mystery of birth in itself, right? A lot of times what we plan for is not necessarily what we see actualize and come to life, right? And so using the word preferences to be like, if everything goes according to my dream, my outlook, how would I want this to look? This is my vision for what I want my birth to look like, okay?

So we identify our preferences. Now, some parts of that plan, of course, you do have a immense amount of control over, whether it's you're specifically speaking about providers and then baby's care afterwards, generally speaking for that, right? Because things can still even come up after baby's born. But for the things such as how you want the room, the type of interventions that you want to occur during your labor and birth experience,

have to come with some fluidity, right? And so setting the preference, but also setting the tone that these are preferences, these are not guarantees, that has been a huge unlocking and release for my clientele in particular to be not so pressed to have everything go like, I'm checking things off of a checklist, right?

Dr. Shannon (07:36.657)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:58.024)
That's what I was about to say too, because it's kind of like a, there's like a box and it's like epidural, yes, epidural, no, like check yes or no. And it's like, is a little bit more to it than checking the box.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (08:08.386)
Yes, yes, it's a lot more than checking the box. And so that's why I think it's really important as in the doula space. And I'm gonna be honest with you, even my clients that I see for therapy, if we're talking about them preparing for birth, well, what's on your birth plan? And sometimes they're like, huh? If they have a doula, they don't usually say that. But I'm like, well, what's on your birth plan? What are your preferences? What are you anticipating to happen? And how will we navigate through if it doesn't go that way, right?

So yeah, it's deeper than just checking off a box. It's really about being informed. And then that's when we get into the space of informed versus implied consent and things of that nature. So yeah, purposes are important, but it's also important to recognize that the duality is it may not go towards this plan and I don't want this to wreck your overall birth outcome. If that makes sense.

Dr. Shannon (08:43.207)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (09:05.048)
Exactly. Okay, you said a couple things there because I like the aspect of if it doesn't go according to it, like can we... It's important talking about that in that prenatal space and planning because then that can set you up for success in the postpartum to process it. But then the knowledge that comes with it. So...

you're working with clients and maybe you mention something that they don't even know about like what you know, certain interventions where they may not understand. Well, what does it mean to have? Would you want your waters broke? Do what kind of interventions? You know, would you be okay with forceps or vacuum assisted birth? And they might be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. That leads you down that path of informed consent and the knowledge, you know?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (09:59.934)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it does. It is, because a lot of times what we see in these spaces is that people are getting implied consent, right? Informed consent is usually like when they talk to you about, technically speaking, it would be like, talk to you about the epidural, or if you're having to have a cesarean bird, things of that nature. Those are informed consents because you're actively having to read something and sign it. Now, it gets kind of gray when things are like implied.

Dr. Shannon (10:00.27)
I think that's so important.

Dr. Shannon (10:07.527)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:22.388)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (10:26.558)
such as cervical checks, okay, we're gonna go ahead and check you. That's not informed consent. That's an implication that you're okay with this because this is routine.

Dr. Shannon (10:34.736)
This is what we do. Do you know how many moms I even tell them? I'm like, you know, you don't have to have that and they're always like what I'm like, you don't have to you can't if you want That's totally fine. But you don't have to Not fascinating. Mm-hmm

Imani Byers-Quarterman (10:40.97)
Yeah, you don't have to. Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to. It is. And so really this birth preferences guide is really a space of also, it's a tool of empowerment, right? To be able to navigate conversations with your providers and being like, no, I'm actually, I have questions about this. I'm not just gonna go with it just because I'm a first time mom or I haven't had a baby in many years. I want to be able to have a conversation with you about these things.

Dr. Shannon (10:55.857)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (11:02.121)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (11:10.594)
without it being said, oh, this is just what we do. Because sometimes that's not enough.

Dr. Shannon (11:15.956)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Now navigate a little bit of having that preferences list and then it not being so... I mean, we spoke a little bit to the fluidity of it, but having it not be so tied to an outcome. So, and you can even speak at in depth too, if you want to, with a little bit more of like the childbirth education that you do, or, you know, things with birthing from within or whatnot, because that's kind of, again, releasing...

that outcome. So then, is it more of like you have this generalized, this is where I want to go, but we still talk about ABCDE of what could happen? Like what does that look like?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (11:58.746)
Yeah, so for my clients, the premise is nothing is off limits. In my intake forms, I'm very intentional about what I ask them. So I ask them about what their dream birthplace is. So speaking about location. And then I also ask them, what's your deepest fears about this journey, right? Because what I know is as a clinician and then just also just somebody who's lived life, right? People avoid what they're afraid of.

Dr. Shannon (12:19.322)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (12:28.802)
So I want you to pull that out. So we're gonna take the time to pull that out. If you're afraid about cesarean, that might be the first thing we talk about just so that we can clear up any mystic areas for you that you don't truly understand or if you're afraid about pain management.

Dr. Shannon (12:31.841)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (12:42.876)
And not, yes, I was gonna say the pain. And I think sometimes too, not to interrupt, but it's like when you think that if you're focusing on that, like you're manifesting that, like, oh, I don't wanna put that energy there because I don't want that to happen. I'm gonna speak cause that's like how I was when I was pregnant. So it's kind of like, no, that's not it. It's informing yourself of that. And then,

Imani Byers-Quarterman (12:47.214)
Cough

Imani Byers-Quarterman (13:04.59)
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon (13:12.284)
is you can make better decisions. And then it's not so scary. It releases that fear. I'm so glad that that's like what's ideal and what's not ideal and what stops you in your tracks and how can we confront that? Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (13:15.126)
Yes, exactly. You release the fear.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (13:25.134)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely, we have to, you have to get in front of it. We cannot combat what we don't know, right? That leads into like anxious responses. So anxiety, I always tell people is future driven because you don't know what's gonna happen, you're right. So what we're gonna do is focus on this present moment. If everything goes to plan, this is what we're gonna hold to. But if they don't, we need to leave room for fluidity.

This is really difficult I see sometimes for folks who do deal with anxiety or even depression or those who have experienced trauma. I need to know what's going to happen. And unfortunately, that's not a guarantee that we can offer in birth. So I think as a service to our clients, we just let them know, hey, I know what you've experienced. We acknowledge and validate the journey that they've been through to get here.

Dr. Shannon (13:56.597)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (14:19.17)
We're going to talk about things that may make you feel uncomfortable, but please understand that this is not me speaking on it as a wish for you. This is me speaking on it as an intention for you to be aware. So if it did come up, it doesn't completely rock your world. And that's not to say that trauma is completely avoided even if we have those conversations because things can get really, really wild in the birth space, right? Things that you couldn't even think of happening can come up.

Dr. Shannon (14:45.155)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (14:49.13)
Um, and so also being able to have that reckoning and that time to process with your clientele as well, um, about what occurred, what they wish would have went differently versus what did so on and so forth.

Dr. Shannon (15:07.5)
Mm-hmm. No. What are ways to protect that mental space? I'm thinking specifically like prenatally, ways to protect that space, but being open and flexible to letting birth unfold.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (15:30.378)
Wow, yeah, that's a great question. You know, and I was reflecting on this before we talked. It's just like, ah, there's so many things that can be done, right? First, what I would say is there needs to be an excavation of sort of the fears. So prenatally, you have to name it, put a name on it, identify what it is that you absolutely just don't wanna talk about. And this is one of the principles.

Dr. Shannon (15:39.188)
There's a lot I know.

Dr. Shannon (15:49.639)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (15:58.826)
from birthing from within, and even hypnobirthing and things of that nature, you have to talk about what you're afraid of in order to combat it. Because otherwise, there's no way we can do any exposure response to it. It will continue to hold power over you. And you don't want anything to hold power over you in such a emotionally vulnerable space in general. It's physically vulnerable and emotionally vulnerable. You don't need any additional baggage, so.

Dr. Shannon (16:15.575)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (16:27.762)
Excavate those fears and be honest about those fears and talk about the things that scare you so that you can become a form So that fear can't control you other things you can do go to those birth Processing groups. I know for a fact my friends at the Providence wellness collective They do the birth processing groups working from within Atlanta did those birth processing groups? And also building community. So what I like to do for my clients, I don't do it as frequently as I would want

but like have like social gatherings so that they can meet and hopefully find moms that have given birth either close to them or are gonna give birth close to them so they can build connections so people can relate to them. But also being mindfully aware to not take on other people's fears as your own. So being mindful of the things that you take in because it is very, very easy to fall into the trap of reminiscence or that overthinking of things. When you say, oh my gosh, this happened to them, like this could happen to me.

Dr. Shannon (17:14.521)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (17:26.733)
Well, it could, but this is not your fear to begin with. So this is not something for you to pick up in awe. And then also making sure that everybody that is going to be present with you during this journey is in alignment with what you want. So being mindful to not project their stories onto you. Being mindful not to diminish the things that you want and deem as important. And then also people who are gonna use the language and words that make you feel strong and empowered. So creating that list, that's another question I asked.

in my instinct form. What are the words and phrases that make you feel absolutely powerful so that you can overcome it? So that way that's the language that we use, you know.

Dr. Shannon (18:07.664)
I love that asking that language. That's so good. I know. I don't even know. I'm trying to like, I'm taking mental notes. I didn't write it down. I was like, there's every, I can write down everything Imani says. Um.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (18:10.262)
Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (18:15.639)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (18:23.06)
That's so important. You know, I go back to my first birth. I've even changed the language on it as I have processed it. This was 14 years ago, y'all. So am I still processing it? Yes, this is unfolding. You know, things come up as the kid gets older. You know, it's fascinating to me. But I had always said, oh, it was an emergency to Sarian. You know, cause that gave...

Imani Byers-Quarterman (18:37.198)
Thanks for watching!

Imani Byers-Quarterman (18:41.51)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (18:53.204)
I feel like that gave me, that helped me release shame and guilt about how birth didn't go according to plan. Does that sound, does that make sense? Like when you say it was an emergency, it was unplanned. There was a cascade of events. And I think that cascade of events happened in my fear space, right? And things that I didn't confront with that. So as I backtrack and think back on it, and we'll get back, we'll get into the processing the birth story in a minute, but I think

Imani Byers-Quarterman (19:01.953)
Hmm. Oh, it does.

Dr. Shannon (19:24.032)
That was tough, you know, and so it's that whole The words that we use I like that you mentioned And the words that you want to bring forth and being mindful of and who you surround yourself with because it was also In that postpartum who you share the story with and who you're able to be vulnerable with Because you don't want to take on the words that they say either and I'm glad you mentioned that in that prenatal space

Imani Byers-Quarterman (19:38.331)
And I think that's the best way to start.

Dr. Shannon (19:54.512)
because you want to be guard full and protective, but then you want to create that community as well too. So finding those like-minded individuals. I feel like I would add to your list with protecting that mental space too is, and you mentioned this already, but the providers, the people that you have, your clinicians, like those type, not just the other women that are giving birth with you, but having a doula.

doing childbirth education, having that provider that you can talk to that listens to you and respects you, and it's not just feeding you yes or no answers and those type of things. Obviously, I'm gonna say chiropractic care, pelvic floor PT, like some of those other things, but there's also that aspect too of protecting that mental.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (20:24.27)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (20:44.599)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Mandatory. Ha ha ha.

Dr. Shannon (20:50.072)
space because then you hear those nuggets of information. They lead you down paths of support because what I have found with some of my moms when their birth and the reason why I wanted to talk about this is because I do have quite a few moms that birth didn't go according to plan. It wasn't bad. It just birth unfolds, right? And they were the words that I hear from them are that they're so thankful that they had the support team that they did.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (21:08.886)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (21:18.664)
because it was different from their first round and no matter what the outcome was, they felt supported. They felt they did what they knew to do and they felt, I guess that supported is that key word that it keeps coming back to mind as far as one way to protect that mental space. And you mentioned if we have that history of anxiety and those type of things, getting in that counseling, that head space, that childbirth education,

Imani Byers-Quarterman (21:32.13)
Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (21:38.678)
that.

Dr. Shannon (21:47.604)
prenatally can set you up for success in the birth space and then postpartum too. You know.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (21:52.446)
Yeah, absolutely. And I also think as providers, we have to be mindful of, you know, our definition of showing up versus our clients definition of showing up because it can look different. And so making sure that you are really clear and open to their, you know, their statements of saying, you know, this is really how I need it to be showed up for it, regardless of, you know, what

um, maybe laid out and things of that nature. That's a part of building that rapport too, right? So being mindful of like, Oh, well, this is what I normally do, but checking in with the individual, because then it just starts to feel like the numbers system that we make feel like in the medical industrial complex and stuff like that too. And another note to that, Shannon, you know, when you were talking about your experience and the feeling of maybe like shame or guilt associated with it, oftentimes I'll see that come up because women.

especially for us women, right? We really feel like we fail. Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I couldn't do a vaginal birth, right? Like that's a failure. I'm supposed to be able to do this. I failed. And the thing that I tell people when they present with that, right? Because it's a real feeling, it's an emotion. Of course you would feel that way, right? The thing that I tell them is like your body.

Dr. Shannon (22:56.104)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (23:03.582)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (23:15.017)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (23:19.99)
does not fail. If anything, it protected you from something that could have been worse. This outcome happened for a reason, whether we know that identified reason or not. That's not to invalidate your experience and feeling, but it is to release you from the ideal that it had to go this way. Right? So give yourself the grace to know that the body has been delicately and intelligently designed.

Dr. Shannon (23:26.487)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (23:40.128)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (23:48.834)
to do things, but also it has been designed to protect you in moments where things don't go normal, if you will. So to release that shame and guilt associated with how you gave birth, because at the end of the day, you gave birth, now let's take the time to process the emotions behind the way in which you gave birth.

Dr. Shannon (23:58.292)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (24:10.628)
Mm-hmm. No, so this okay. This is a good segue into because I wanted to touch on the language that we use birth plan birth preference why we still go ahead and Create those preferences lists because that sets us up for informed decision shared decision making Protecting that prenatal mental space and those are the main things I wanted to touch on there, but then

I mean, obviously I called this thing processing your birth story. I haven't even gotten to processing your birth story. I'm getting there people. I'm getting there. So now I do want to segue into and what you just mentioned with the shame and the guilt. There's just something about birth that brings it out as far as some of those feelings, those emotions where you can feel like you failed, you can feel the shame, you can feel the guilt.

Dr. Shannon (25:11.665)
how we process that. So I want to go into like how we process the birth and then even going a little bit deeper into how we process the birth when it doesn't go according to our desires. Because sometimes it's, maybe it's not easier to process when it does go according to desires. So what are ways that you recommend just processing?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (25:26.011)
Mm.

Dr. Shannon (25:36.144)
your birth and is it important? Should we do it? Why do we do it? How do we do it?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (25:42.734)
Yeah, it's absolutely important whether it goes wonderfully or not, right? Based on your personal definition, you should definitely process it because it allows you to number one, fill in the pieces. So when I had the clients that had the birth, it was like, oh, it's beautiful. I thought I was doing this the whole time. And it's like, yeah, let's talk about what you were doing in this moment. You know, and it's a nice moment of connection and there's jovial laughing and things like that.

Well, we have individuals who have experienced trauma. And so this trauma can be anything that someone identifies as traumatic for them. But specifically speaking, like any loss, we had an unexpected like transfer, NICU, emergent cesareans, cesarean in general, use of vacuum forces, anything like that can be traumatic because oftentimes all of those things are not things that we are expecting to happen.

unless you're actively playing for those things, right? And so I think it's extremely important, number one, after the birth has taken place, take the time to process with any partners that were present, so spouse, other romantic partners, non-romantic partners, parents, family, friends, take a moment to process your experience. And then number two, get into therapy. So process with somebody.

Dr. Shannon (26:39.835)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (27:06.414)
who has the experience to kind of help you navigate and pull apart that story, your narration. So when we're in a space of processing, narrative therapies are also awesome to use in that space because it allows you to tell your story and then also identify moments where you just like, man, I just really wish I could have went X, Y, and Z and also find those bright moments, right?

Dr. Shannon (27:33.032)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (27:33.098)
Because in every story there are some bright moments and the goal is to highlight those moments but also reckon and hold space for the moments that weren't so great. And then go to a support group because I guarantee you are not the only person that experienced that whatever it is that you're going through. It may be different and unique in certain aspects but there is community out there for you. So tapping in with those free support groups from postpartum international.

reaching out if you had a doula or if you have a chiropractor or doctor, other service providers in the birth space that you built a great rapport with, asking them, you know, this was hard for me. Do you have any other recommendations of things that I can do to really heal from this experience and this journey?

Dr. Shannon (28:22.192)
No, that's all perfect. You know, even in my head too, there's this like perfect birth center created and all your providers are in one building and they're all aligned and mom gives birth and then, and it's a birthing center so she can give birth there. And then next thing you know, she can come in with baby and all the moms are sitting around with their babies and they're talking about life and they're just bonding and like, I have that vision in my head. It's gotta come to fruition, but right. Like it's just that community.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (28:46.246)
Beautiful. That is a beautiful hippie dream. I love that, because I'm a hippie girl. It's just crunchy enough for me, honestly. I love that. I do, yes.

Dr. Shannon (28:51.04)
That's my hippie dream.

Dr. Shannon (28:56.64)
There you go. But it's because we need that community there, you know, and a little bit more with my... So like I said, with my first birth, it wasn't Emergent Cessarian, but like I said, it was a cascade of events that I know led up to that unplanned Cessarian. And then I ended up feeling like I gave birth vaginally and through Cessarian. And it was just, you know, healing process and everything was so intense because it's physical, emotional, mental, spiritual healing.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (29:22.079)
It's wild, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (29:27.176)
And I vividly remember going back to work and it wasn't like a, I don't remember the words that were said. It was a conversation that I had with another mom who was older than me. And it almost had that, I don't remember the specific words. I just remember how I felt. Does that make sense? Like I remember and it had a little bit of like a, oh, bless your heart. Like it was like a, no one expected me. I'm a runner. I'm an athlete.

It's like, oh, I power through birth, right? I trained for that and I trained for this. Then I went completely sideways, which is looking at it and the processing of it. It was interesting that conversation really sticks with me because it felt a little bit like, oh, yeah, I guess it blessed my heart. It didn't pan out how I had wanted it to. Now, I do have a 14-year hindsight is 2020.

because I know I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today had that birth not unfolded how it did. And I look at it in such a different light now, and you talked about the highlighting things. I remember the difficult parts so much and I talk about it in the office. You gotta talk about the difficult parts that happened as it unfolded. You don't project it on people, but in a clinical aspect of things, you can bring it up. But then it's when you can highlight those beautiful parts.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (30:43.234)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (30:52.644)
and what leads you, like the healing properties that can happen with processing the birth story, you know? And I think that's one big thing, not that you're rewriting it and like forgetting the bad parts, but like you said, with like the narrative therapy. And so I know I like to write a lot. So I do a lot of writing. And in fact, I'll tend to write down

Imani Byers-Quarterman (31:01.36)
I'm going to take a few minutes to get back to you.

Dr. Shannon (31:21.796)
real big events that happen. I do a bunch of races. We did an episode two, ultra marathons in birth, because I did a crazy race and we compared it to birth because there were so many parallels. I didn't even realize that Rachel had me do it. I was like, oh wow. I went through like transition and the pushings. I went through everything and it was so funny, but I like to, I ride it out. I don't know, just to get it out. And I also like to do that when it's fresh.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (31:34.475)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (31:49.056)
Because even with some traumatic events that have happened in life, I like to write it out because it's fresh. I get it out because then I don't like I feel like I don't have to hold on to it. Does that make sense? Like I can just if I need to revisit it, I can revisit it in the written word, but I can just let it go a bit in the as much as I try to let it go. Do we ever actually let it go? But I don't know. I wanted to mention a little bit of that too, because I'm glad you do that. You talked about the groups.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (32:04.658)
Yeah. Facts.

Dr. Shannon (32:15.32)
going to therapy, processing it, talking about it with people and making sure you feel comfortable. But I think writing is another good tool.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (32:23.282)
It is, it really is. And you know, sometimes I forget about like my old faithfuls sometimes, you know, cause writing is really big for me as well. And even when my clientele too, this is more so like in the perinatal therapy space, what I will tell them, we do this gatekeeper exercise and it's usually a homework assignment that I give to them. It's based off of my learnings and studies with birthing from within. But basically I asked them, you know,

all these things that you pick up. Cause when you experience trauma, you kind of build these different defense mechanisms and resiliency factors. And sometimes those things serve you up until a finite point. And then instead of exactly, and then they start hindering you versus helping you. And so we do the gatekeeper exercise where I'm just like, okay, I want you to think about all those things that you carried with you to get you to this point. Because now if you're to open your eyes and look around you, you've created this reality in this space.

Dr. Shannon (33:02.852)
Until they don't. Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (33:21.666)
that you wanted to be in. And so how about we write a letter to those gatekeepers, thanking them, thank you for getting me to this point. I no longer need you anymore. So I'm gonna set you down here. It is such a hard thing to do. And it makes me emotional even just saying that out loud. It gives me chills every time I speak. Thank you for getting me here, but your work in my life is done. So I have to set you down.

Dr. Shannon (33:37.96)
I've got chills you sang it. Ooh.

Dr. Shannon (33:47.877)
It's done.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (33:50.042)
and realize that wow, the reality that I've been desiring and craving is here. That healed space, that not forgotten, but forgiving energy. You know what I mean? Um, I'm here now so I can sit in this space and be in the present moment and not allow the things in the past to fully hinder me from living into this beautiful present that I've created. So yes, writing is top tier for sure.

Dr. Shannon (34:17.656)
I love writing. I always thought too because I'm an only child so I'm like I don't have anybody else talk to you, right? So I just wrote a lot as a kid. So I'm like, maybe that's the only reason why I journal but I journal so much you had mentioned too and I want to touch on it as far as the aspect of Things happening for a reason but not that the words that we use are important and I'm glad you mentioned that it doesn't negate the fact that

Imani Byers-Quarterman (34:22.19)
Same.

Dr. Shannon (34:46.404)
It didn't, you didn't want it to happen, right? Like it sucks, like, but when it's almost taking like a 30,000 level view of things happening rather than that, like, I'm in it right here face to face with it. Because that's how I had to look at the birth and how my birth has unfolded over the years, my unpacking and unlayering of it, you know? Cause like I look at it now and I'm like,

Imani Byers-Quarterman (34:48.37)
It sucked! Yeah! It sucked!

Dr. Shannon (35:13.792)
golly, I have so much knowledge to share with moms because I have this with cesarean and then I was able to have the VBAC and what the differences were there and how I supported and all that. And I'm like, but again too, I couldn't have had my VBAC if I didn't have that cesarean. So I often go to that where I'm not trying to be like toxic positivity, I'm not, but it's the framework that changes. I've had, and this is, I mean, I've had to learn this over the years. I love that you're young and you're doing it now. I'm like, oh my gosh.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (35:33.337)
Wait. Right.

Dr. Shannon (35:43.244)
I can change, I can still do better, but understanding, the words matter, but seeing it from a different perspective of a different lens. Sometimes I like to say, I want to look at life through the God lens. I want to see things through a different view. And so sometimes that's where I look at it from is like, okay, it happens for a reason, but I'm not trying to just negate that it happened.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (36:01.833)
Mmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (36:10.806)
negated, right? You have to say that because when people say things like, oh, it happened for a reason, in the moment, it's just kind of like, how dismissive does that feel to say, oh, everything happens for a reason, even though they don't usually have malicious intent, right? They just don't know what else to say. They don't know what else to say. So just like, oh, well, or even the statement of, oh, well, at least you guys are healthy.

Dr. Shannon (36:21.947)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (36:26.652)
Right. They don't know what else to say.

Dr. Shannon (36:36.764)
You're happy.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (36:38.286)
cringy, like that's so cringy. Not because again, it's malicious, it's because you are negating their experience that they had, whether it's intentional or not. And so to be mindful of that. So yes, words matter. I'm a semantics queen, okay? You can say these words, but there may be a better way to say it to soften the blow, right?

Dr. Shannon (36:50.348)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (37:04.61)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (37:05.87)
I think about my great grandmother saying things like, we get more bees with honey than vinegar. So, you know, not toxic positivity, but more of like a commitment to be better, if you will. That's why one of my favorite treatment modalities is acceptance and commitment theory. Cause it's like, this happened, this sucked, how can I move forward from it? Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (37:33.286)
Mm-hmm. I love it. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. I want to, okay, I want to mention one other thing because I wrote this down. And I don't remember what episode number we did with this, but we talked about the ripple effect of birth because I guess we're talking about this in the aspect of like, well, why does it matter how you give birth?

And so not that we're going to go through the whole thing, but there is a ripple effect of birth. There, you know, it sticks with you. I mean, you get you still have the cells of your children with you for forever. Like it, it's a very big event in your life if it does happen. So understanding that the ripple effect of birth can go into how your postpartum is, can go into how you raise your children, can go into

the other transitions in life. And so I guess to just touch on the importance of like, how you give birth is important, but how you feel about that birth is important. And so that's where we're going with, I should have said this at the beginning of the episode, but that's where we're going with like, why do we create the birth preferences list? Why do we care about unpacking all of this and helping you heal? Because birth can, because birth can, it can heal you. Even if it is a tremendous birth, it can be part of.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (38:46.466)
Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (38:53.418)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (38:57.672)
that process. So I know that you, you know, I know that you agree with that.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (39:02.346)
Yes, I do, I do. It just makes me think about so many different things. Like one of the books I was required to read for my initial doula certification was when survivors give birth and how triggering birth can be just in general, especially if someone has navigated through sexual assault and things of that nature, how triggering can be, but also how much of a healing reckoning it can be, even when thinking about things such as like breastfeeding, choosing to or not, you know what I mean?

Dr. Shannon (39:17.344)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (39:20.8)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (39:26.502)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (39:33.391)
I really think that the reason for setting up these birth preferences is not for like these expectations to be met, but just so you can be aware of what it can be, should things be okay? Because oftentimes, I think there is an unlearning that we need to do, especially like in Western civilization. And again, hip, no birthing and birthing from within tap in on this, but.

Dr. Shannon (39:46.868)
Hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (39:58.57)
it's an unlearning that we have to do because we low-key been conditioned, not even low-key, high-key been conditioned to feel like we can't do this without any intervention. And so on a cellular level, we have kind of transitioned as like, you know, persons of humanity. Like I love all things birth Shannon. So I literally watched like everybody, if you are on my Facebook, you saw I posted a rhino, right? But it was such, it was the most undisturbed situation.

Dr. Shannon (40:08.338)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (40:26.154)
The baby came out, the rhino gets up, walks, the placenta, the sack breaks, we're done, right? They just need that moment to retreat in silence and feel safe. And I think if we continue to do the work that you're doing as a chiropractor with this amazing podcast, using your platform to really inform people about what birth is and what it was designed to be, right? I think we can start to unravel this fear, this inundated, if you will, feeling that

Dr. Shannon (40:46.113)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (40:54.89)
I can't do this. And you absolutely can, because you were made by design to do it. You know what I mean? So I think this purpose is kind of gets us back to the like, oh, this is what birth is, and this can happen for me. I am so grateful that we have the option to have OBs and that can handle these emergent situations, but birth in itself is not an emergency.

Dr. Shannon (41:00.783)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (41:16.346)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (41:23.032)
Mm-mm. Normal physiological birth. Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (41:23.774)
Right? It's a natural process. It's a normal, it's a normal process. When things go awry, that's why we have these systems in place to help us. It's super grateful for that. Yes.

Dr. Shannon (41:32.28)
And we're so thankful, exactly. Because I also don't want to negate everything that I went through as well too, and being thankful for how that unfolded. I mean, yeah, the recovery was intense, but it's also like, man, I am thankful that we did have everything that I needed at that point and how it unfolded.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (41:43.254)
Yes.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (41:55.154)
Yeah, for sure. So we give, I give thanks for those situations, but also to letting us know this is what it can look like, and I'm gonna do my best to have that achieved, but also know I'm not fully in control of how things unfold. I have to surrender to the process.

Dr. Shannon (42:00.04)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:04.261)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:13.056)
Yeah, that's, I think that's the biggest, I mean, not everybody is like a type A control freak like myself, but, but when you identify as that type of personality, then it's, you know, you got a little bit to unpacked because birth requires you to surrender. And

Imani Byers-Quarterman (42:23.13)
any because I need it.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (42:40.369)
Oh

Dr. Shannon (42:42.128)
So there's no getting around that but in the most beautiful way but it can be so Transformative I know Okay, so let's go into the specifics of How to process the birth if it if it doesn't go according to plan because we talked about Some of the ways as far as therapy writing Groups

Imani Byers-Quarterman (42:43.086)
Woo!

There is no getting around it.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (42:51.396)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (43:09.076)
There was something else I had in that list too, like movement. Movement can be very therapeutic as well too. And postpartum can be hard because you aren't moving maybe in a way that you used to or that you would like to that is healing for you. And so that can be... Finding new movement can be difficult, but that's also...

I think that's also a healing modality as well too. And I guess I'm specifically thinking of like yoga and breathing through things and like releasing tension as well too. So movement can be a big one. But again, the specifics, we went through those of like how to process it, but if it doesn't go according to plan and we sometimes hold on to that shame and that guilt, maybe this is a little bit more of like what you cover.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (43:39.758)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (44:01.436)
Not everything you cover in therapy, but things that you go through there or how you even Work with or approach your doula clients when you hear certain words and some of those postpartum appointments what? How can we process some of those feelings?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (44:18.474)
I think it's important to acknowledge that birth not going the way you want it to is a space of grief and acknowledging it as a loss, right? I think oftentimes it's just kind of shunt inside like, okay, it happens, but this is a space of grief. And so I literally take them back to the basics. I'm talking like Kubler-Ross stages of grief, okay? And if you're not familiar with Kubler-Ross, she was a hospice nurse that created these

Dr. Shannon (44:29.958)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (44:43.235)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (44:47.99)
this line of processes that you go through when you're generally greeting. It's five spaces that you enter into. And initially it was thought that, you know, it was linear. Well, we've identified now as we've learned, right? It is absolutely non-linear. You go back and forth, fourth and back. You know what I mean? It's all over the place. I can be angry today, depressed tomorrow. Okay, I'm good. I'm in denial. I can't believe this happened. You know what I mean?

Dr. Shannon (45:02.261)
It's like, oh, it's all over the place.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (45:16.118)
You go back and forth through those systems. And so I really do an assessment with my clients and anybody can do this. Cause it's not like a clinical assessment tool, just literally looking at the stages of grief, where are you with this? Asking, asking yourself that question. And if you're a provider asking your clients, where are you with this? Um, I'm here with it. Why am I feeling this way right now? Talk about what's coming up either in speech or in written form. Like you were talking about Shannon, right?

Dr. Shannon (45:16.361)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (45:45.733)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (45:45.834)
Get it out and acknowledge where you are. And I want us to put down that facade that we tend to pick up of that, I'm just gonna put on my cape and keep it moving and keep going and keep forward because I'm a superwoman, I can handle it. Really acknowledge that I'm hurting and it's okay to be in a space of grief. It's okay to cry. It's okay to continuously talk about the story that you're navigating through.

Dr. Shannon (46:01.661)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (46:12.714)
And it is also okay to get additional support when you do all the other things and they just don't seem to be working the way that you need them to. So yeah, that would be my tidbit is to really acknowledge the space where you are from a standpoint of grief, because that is something to grieve. An experience that you were expecting didn't go to plan. It's okay to grieve that, even if you went into it with the open heart and

I can go with the flow and X, Y, and Z, because there's always that little seed of like, that's not gonna happen, right? And then when it happens, it's like, I gotta reckon with this. So really taking the time to identify where you are with things, talk about it, write it out, and give yourself grace to heal in time.

Dr. Shannon (46:47.597)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (46:51.342)
Mm-hmm

Dr. Shannon (47:01.216)
Mm-hmm. Give yourself grace. I know. Heal time. I know. Yeah, I know. It's interesting how birth can like stay with you through the years as well too, you know, and just thinking of because I've got my teenager and he's getting ready to go into high school and so it just brings up a whole other, I don't know, you go and you think about it and it's like, oh wow, remember what we went through?

Imani Byers-Quarterman (47:26.03)
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon (47:29.276)
together to get you here. So it's worth processing though. It's worth processing. Now we did do an episode way early on, we called Creating a Birth Plan episode 11. We probably need to revisit that and just update that episode. Let's see. Anything else that you want to mention in this space of kind of...

Imani Byers-Quarterman (47:37.239)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (47:57.92)
processing your birth story. Anything else maybe that we didn't touch on or you wanted to highlight more? I know we did a lot of good stuff though.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (48:09.89)
This was so good. It gave me a lot of chills, especially if somebody who's preparing to conceive, you know? So, this was really good. I think the main thing that keeps popping up in my brain is like, you are not a failure. Like your birth outcome does not change your value to your children, to your family, for anything, you know? We all have to navigate through hard stuff.

Dr. Shannon (48:17.869)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (48:28.329)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (48:34.804)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (48:39.742)
And sometimes our heart is harder than other times, but you absolutely can get to the other side, right? There is a reckoning that can take place if we're in a space to do it with intention. And so please, please don't hold those things in, acknowledge the things that are hurting you.

Dr. Shannon (48:45.448)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (49:04.542)
and then move forward with hopefully some tools you gathered from here or other community spaces you may be in. Um, but yeah, you're not a failure just because it didn't go to plan. Just had the pivot. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (49:17.392)
Mm-hmm. I know. I like pivot. I like that kind of that overarching theme and I think it's important to I know it's important to mention because and it it's um it's very easy to take on that outcome as your self-worth and identity and so that's where um you know these

Imani Byers-Quarterman (49:31.029)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (49:45.576)
therapy sessions and the prenatal work that you put in and all of that. That's you know why it's so important too. I think one thing the things that I gather from what you have said has been and I like that you mentioned that because and I say this a lot words matter and so being mindful of the words that you say about birth

Imani Byers-Quarterman (49:52.659)
So.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (50:01.13)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (50:07.676)
And being graceful with yourself too, because I still catch myself, I'm like, that's not the best way I can say that. I'm gonna flip that, I'm gonna change that, and I'm gonna continue to work on flipping that and changing that so that it's got a different energy, different frequency to it or whatnot, but that the words matter and the words that people, your providers are speaking to you and into you matter as well. And so not taking on things that you don't have to.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (50:17.128)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (50:36.162)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (50:37.808)
I know that's something that I don't know. I'm glad you'd mentioned that because I hadn't even thought about, you know, yeah, the words are important. Where can people connect with you now? Because and tell me all the things that you do now. I can't keep up with it.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (50:43.868)
Yes, they are.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (50:51.146)
Yes. Damn it! Yes. So, I can be found at birth underscore fear 3.

Dr. Shannon (51:04.916)
Mm-hmm.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (51:06.334)
on Instagram on pretty much my website. You can find me at rebirthwellness.com or birthherefree.com. I am a licensed clinical social worker, still a full spectrum doula, still tapping in with my herbalism. I went down to Mexico and learned how to do traditional Mayan sovada. So I do know how to do those things. We're still working on those offerings, but.

super excited to be able to incorporate that into my practice as another mode of healing for fertility through postpartum. So that's about like closing the bones and stuff like that. So I'm really, really grateful to have that other way to connect with folks. And of course, clinical social work, doing my therapy stuff. So yeah, and childbirth education. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (51:54.9)
Yes. Okay. That's right too. Because you did birthday, I'm typing it out in here so I know I can go through and put all the links. Girl, I can't keep up with it. And you do virtual counseling. Do you mostly do virtual? Only. Okay. Yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (52:03.753)
Hahaha

Imani Byers-Quarterman (52:14.43)
Only for now, for now. I'm looking to get into doing some group stuff in person because that's the feedback I've gotten from folks. They're like, we want to come in person now and felt. So that's in the works, but yes, virtual. And I serve clients in Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina.

Dr. Shannon (52:21.152)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (52:27.184)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (52:35.848)
Very good. Thank you so much friend for being on the show again today. This was so good. I hope it was healing for those who listen. Hopefully someone's just gathered something to like, you know what, I do need to process my birth story or prenatally you're thinking, okay, yes, birth is important. What can I do to support myself like all of those different ways? So yeah.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (52:44.206)
Yes, it was always a pleasure to talk to you.

Dr. Shannon (53:04.616)
Thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. And I really appreciate it, my friend.

Imani Byers-Quarterman (53:13.391)
always a pleasure.