Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Rivalries: Science vs Faith
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We may be dorks for discussing science, but it is a fascinating topic. Most people would probably say that Science and Faith don’t mix, but we hear at CitizenATX are here to explain how they actually work together. Join Matt, Nathan, and Jonathan as they discuss Science vs Faith.
Hello there, welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillett, and we are excited that you are joining us again today on the Rivalries series. We're excited as we've been talking about these different things that are tensions in our lives that battle uh one against the other in faith. And today we're gonna deal with one that I think that probably everybody listening to this podcast at some point has had a debate about, whether formally or informally. Uh but today with me in the podcast is uh Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Hello, Matthew. And then also another Aggie. They just keep popping out. Like it, I mean, it's you guys are like rabbits. You just keep showing up and yeah. But Nathan Wood is joining us on today's podcast.
SPEAKER_01Hey, friends.
SPEAKER_02And so we are excited, though, today, as we are dealing with the rivalry between science and faith. All right, and perceived or otherwise. So, Jonathan, why is it that this is something that we felt like needed to be a part of the rivalries series?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think you said it well. I think uh people see these as opposing forces. I think people see that outside the church. I think a lot of people uh are under uh just a a presupposition that somehow these two can't go together. Um people that that I guess turn their backs on God sometimes will say they trust in science, not in God. And so they think them they see them as two opposing forces. Uh but then also I would argue even internally within the church, I think Christians have had a lot of skepticism towards science over the years because different scientific uh ideas have seemingly, you know, gone against their values or the or even their understanding uh based on scripture. So that's been I think the perception, right or wrong for a lot of people, is that these two are rivalries, both for Christians. I think some people view it that way, is that science can be an enemy against the faith, and then those outside of the faith, yeah, they it can be the obstacle that keeps them from coming to faith.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I think w you know when we get into those there are hotbed issues in there, such as uh evolution and um the beginning of the universe and stuff like that, that kind of create kind of contribute to that. I I have a quote from Bill Nye here, you know, the the because when we talk about science versus faith and most millennials out there grew up with Bill Nye on their television. He's the science guy, yeah. And so one of the things he said is you can believe what you want religiously. Religion is one thing, but science, provable science, is something else. And so you you have this kind of dichotomy, right? That's our million-dollar word there of setting up a again these two things against one another. Uh and so I think that this is a this is a tension that happens for a lot of believers, especially for a lot of believers who work in the area of STEM, right? Uh science, technology, something, engineering, and I forgot medicine. Is that is that the M in there? I can't remember. We're calling mathematics.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We're all in the humanities here.
SPEAKER_03Liberal arms.
SPEAKER_01Well, whoa, whoa, I have a bachelor's of science, I'll have you know. Leadership degree.
SPEAKER_02But so for that, you know, uh let's start talking through this, all right? So, first of all, you know, Nathan, how did how do you see so Nathan, so the so y'all know Nathan is a student minister at our church, so he works with sixth through twelfth graders on a regular basis. Uh and so where do you see this rivalry uh kind of coming up for the people that you work with on a regular basis?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think especially we're just talking about generations, no, it's a little bit different, but the generations that are coming up now with the inform the access to technology that they have, they ask the question why a lot. I feel like when it was a little bit older, it was kind of like, well, it's in the Bible, so you believe it. Um in truth, I think that's what led to a lot of people, a lot of scientists' belief about Christians is that it's just this blind faith that you have that doesn't really have any evidence or backing. And in fact, if you just researched it a little bit, you would know better. Um, and so for kids, I think it's more so just gin genuinely asking why. Like, why do we believe this? How do we why do we believe things like is it pro can we be proven? Is it known and stuff like that? So I think for them it's really just trying to not so much a doubt as it is uh they just genuinely want to know because they can access anything. I mean, y'all remember growing up whenever you just didn't know things sometimes when you had to put in a CD ROM for Incarta? Rich kids had that. He would just ask questions and be like, maybe I'll figure it out one day.
SPEAKER_03Like, we'll go find go find an encyclopedia and photocopy.
SPEAKER_01And then five years later you're like, hey, remember that time we talked about that? I found it. It's here, you know? It's just a different time. Times were hard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I mean, Jonathan, why do you think the church felt uh over time fell into that kind of a role of opposed or antagonistic towards science?
SPEAKER_03Well, because there's things that have been combating, especially, I mean, uh the core of a lot of it is the creation account. I think that's where it really starts for most Christians, uh, where science has become uh uh I guess uh something difficult for people to reconcile there because they see a creation account that communicates one way, but then they hear other accounts uh scientifically that they don't see how the two could possibly go together, namely, of course, evolution. And that when evolution came into the forefront of just recognized within public education and school systems, that changed a lot of things for churches because then uh the argument of an intelligent designer came to the forefront to combat what children were being taught within classrooms. And so I think I think that part is probably why it's such a big big part in the church, is that I guess it has to do with creation. Because that's really, I guess, the epicenter of the argument usually is where where at least where it starts.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think too, I mean, even from like a a historical standpoint, you know, you had, and Nathan brought brought this up about the well, the scripture says this, so therefore I'm not gonna question it or anything like that. I mean, you go even further back to the pre-Renaissance and things like that of where the institutional uh Roman Catholic Church at the time would uh persecute these astronomers like Galileo and Copernicus and others, um, and basically saying that you know the church dogma defines what what science is, not not the other way around. And so I mean for me, I think classically, when you have you have a lot of uh folks coming up in STEM kind of training, but being told this kind of dichotomy out there, because I think a lot of times we look at it, at least in the church world, of well, science started picking on religion, that's where it started. I think for most people coming from a science background, they feel like religion started picking on science first. And um, and so now whether that's true or not, I I would debate that. But I think we I think we have to recognize if we're gonna be talking about why we are in the pla the place and the space we are, um, that there was at least a connotation early on that the that the church and that the that Christian faith didn't want to interact with science.
SPEAKER_03Well, and if I can even fast forward because I I got some great historical context, but even present-day context that leads to the situation in the post-pandemic world, that changed everything. Just in recent history, I believe, as far as where this becomes an issue for many in the church. Because there, of course, COVID became a a reality all across the world and it changed so much. But one of the slogans, as we all know, that came across during that time was trust the science. That was always it was weaponized, actually, and politicized. Uh, but it also was was utilized and argued over within churches because then even that that's just a practical thing that I think has left some scars in a lot of people in recent years because they were told that you either are in faith or you're trusting in science. You're either you're walking in faith and you're going to church and you're going to ignore the whole thing, or you're trusting in science and you're going to go hide in your room and and wear a mask. And so people were given these two things as a mutually exclusive in many ways, where they felt like they had to join a team. And I think it just led to the rivalry, even in modern days. It poured gasoline on that fire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so I think, you know, for us to rightly approach this conversation, one because like to to your point, there's on there's a false dichotomy that's set up. There are straw man arguments of this is you know what the other side is. So for our for our case, as we're talking about the actual rivalry here, um, how do we define what what is science? I know Nathan, you were talking about this before we we got on air. So if we're actually talking about what this character of science is in this rivalry, what is it? What I mean, what what does science see itself as?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, science is supposed to be the study of measurable things, right? You study the universe, but it's in a measurable way, things that you can look at and identify. For instance, gravity. We can look at gravity and know, okay, gravity exists, it's measurable, makes sense. Yeah. Um, but I think a lot of times with it, I think that science is such an aggressively broad topic and it covers so much. And sometimes I think we give the authority to things that are kind of unknown that science has has thoughts on that are not necessarily proven yet, the same authority as gravity, yeah, or the fact that the earth exists or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Like it's I think sometimes we kind of take it out of the uh the correct context.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that that's one of the things that I think is interesting. So you made you made that statement about where we place authority, right? Like, I mean, but at the same time saying that, well, science is the action of measuring the physical world, right? Um, I always think it's funny to think about what the reality, what mathematics is, right? Uh I mean, how are you really gonna go and yell at a one, say, and be I'm angry that you're a one, and how dare you claim to be a number one? It doesn't it sounds like you're a psychotic version of Sesame Street at that point.
SPEAKER_01I don't want us to get too off topic here, but in the society that we currently live in, there are real articles about like is math racist? Because and and I don't want to get into the weeds, but the idea is because there's this belief that truth is relative, yeah, and that uh everybody has different truth, that two plus two four is four for you makes sense, but for me, two plus two might be five. And I'm not any I'm not wrong for believing that this is like a real in our society, it's actually the direction we're going. So even this is getting kind of weird where it's I don't believe in an objective truth, but I can objectively say there is no God scientifically, right? Like it's kind of an interesting time we live in.
SPEAKER_02And I think you're talking about that there is a a major generational change happening where you're coming from generations that said, show it to me objectively versus now I'm going to cultivate and curate my reality around myself. And so, I mean, for the purposes of this conversation, obviously, since we're talking about science versus faith, we're going to try to keep it in that category of, you know, reason and logic. I didn't want to get in the weeds. It was just headbringing. Well, way to go, Nathan. But so I mean, with with that, I mean, Jonathan, how do you, you know, Nathan makes this this statement about aggressive aggressively what was the what was the way you phrased it? That science aggressively measures everything. Um I mean, why do you think that we're in that position in the first place at all? Uh or is that a true statement?
SPEAKER_03Well there's an existential desire within all of us that I think pushes us towards scientific discovery. Every person just innately wants to know who am I, how'd I get here, and why are we here? Like there's those things that have driven, I think, humanity from the beginning. Uh and ultimately I believe through faith that those existential questions are answered through God. But but it it usually leads us to asking all these scientific questions and and the that definition, you know, that the scientist that it's science is that I think you wrote Matt, I saw systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. Even those processes, you know, you could go to scripture, things like Romans 1, where God has revealed himself to mankind through his invisible attributes, that actually God has created science, I would argue, to point towards our creator. Uh, but unfortunately, because of the fall of humanity, it leads us to altering conclusions. But I think that's why are we asking the questions? I think it's because God made us to ask those questions to lead us back to Him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think we I think where we so often fall uh fall short on this conversation is saying is basically placing the ask of the questions and already in a seat of lack of faith, right? I think that's and I think that's where a lot of folks who come from a science-based background would feel like they would be pushed is well, because I'm asking a question about this, or I'm I'm presuming that science has something good to say about the physical world or something val valid, um, that this pushes me into a category of not having faith. And I I think that's that's a major area that has to be addressed first as far as dealing with attention, that it is right to consider faith and science in the same realm. Sure. Um, you know, it it's interesting. Uh Galile, we mentioned Galileo a minute ago. One of the things that he was known for saying is that mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe. And so I I love I love that statement because it, you know, in in one way it's a it it places things in a correct priority here where the creator is still above the creation. But at the same time, the what he what he has done and the way that he has set up the physical universe matters. And it does and it does give us an opportunity to discover the depths of who he is, the invisible attributes, as you made a statement about. And you know, and then on top of that, you have uh verses like Isaiah chap in Isaiah chapter 40, starting in verse 12. Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains and scales and the hills in a balance? Who has measured the spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice and taught him knowledge and showed him the way of understanding? I mean, it's it's interesting that when we consider what we what we tend to do when we elevate science too high is we start saying that we we place God beneath the rule and authority of science versus when in reality it should be turned the other way around, that science itself is a tool that God used in creating the universe.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I always turn back to Psalm 24:1 that we're told the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. So even the scientific discoveries and all these methods and observations that are made, it's all God's. Like it's all created by God ultimately to bring glory to God, and and I believe through the sense of a general revelation of himself to mankind. And he communicates through those scientific discoveries. I I always think back to Psalm chapter 19, verse 1. We're told the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork, and day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, there are no words whose voice is not heard, their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun. And so the the psalmist David, he's pointing towards creation, he's saying, God has laid out all of his handiwork for that purpose, that as you discover and you observe and you and you experiment, what this is showing is that all this came together by God and for God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think what winds up happening too in the tension is that we get to the point where we say, Well, God should be able to be provable by science, right? Because science tends to be true, which is a pretty pretty big statement, and then you get into quantum physics and things like that. Um, because it tends to be true, we want to look at it and say, Well, if if science and faith are going to get together, then God must be provable by science. Now the question is, what does that actually mean at the beginning, at the end of the day, right? Like what what is enough in scientific proof of some of the existence of God so that we can uh you know embrace that.
SPEAKER_03Well, I will also add to that. You can you can go down that road of looking at proof and evidence, but it is a fool's errand to say that I will find undeniable, indisputable proof that proves God. Case closed, this is it, everybody look, just read what I found. It's antithetical to biblical teaching because Hebrews 11 6 says it's impossible to please God without faith. So he requires faith to find him. And so with that, he gives us a great start through science because those things point towards it with evidence. But I think that's that's where I think is uh I guess at the crux of a lot of the argument is from the other side, from say a scientific anti-God side, a side that doesn't acknowledge a God. Yeah, they're looking for something that God said he's never gonna give them of that that that full evidence that's that's foolproof.
SPEAKER_02Well, and why should he, right? Because when we talk about all of the criteria that go into our existence, we I think what is very important, especially back when we get to defining back to defining terms, is that science does not make claims on a spiritual world or an emotional world. Um uh psych um psychology and things like that try to, but even then they fall short in specific areas, um, even specific to uh things like um oh I'm losing the word right now, uh, but doing doing good for good's sake without having an evolutionary um benefit to yourself. Altruism, that's the word I'm I'm looking for. Um and so, you know, Nathan, even even to what you were talking about earlier off air, uh, about the Big Bang Theory, um, there are things that are connected in with that that create problems for a pure that saying that science can correctly measure everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I think so real quick, I thought what we were kind of just talking about, it's interesting, there's a guy recommending looking up his name's Hugh Ross, he's uh astrophysicist, but he actually uh he runs kind of organization, I think it's called Reasons to Believe, um, but he talks about how in scripture you actually find the laws of the universe that science has. So, like Zechariah 12 says he stretches the heavens, and it's this idea that the universe is expanding and stuff like that. So there's some cool stuff in there. Um, and I think an important thing to discuss too, because I think this is so many times brought up, is from a scientific perspective, like listen to Dawkins, like Richard Dawkins' talk. Yeah, faith is always seen as this blind, ignorant faith where you are literally ignoring evidence. And so, but like Jonathan said, you're not gonna find this 100% irrefutable, scientifically proven. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's just you're believing in nothing or you're believing opposite.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't mean the arguments don't slant on your side, though. Yeah. That's the point.
SPEAKER_01And so what I would say, in terms like the Big Bang, there's a couple issues with it. Uh and so the Big Bang is the most established theory that there was this mass that existed and then essentially explodes out at a rate, and over billions upon billions of years, planets form, galaxies form, stars form, and eventually life forms, and then from this very small speck of life, evolution takes over, and we end up, we evolved from fish essentially. This primordial goo made everything. Um, but the problem that uh that the Big Bang can't answer is how did the infinite mass, how did it get there? Yeah, and where was the beginning? And the funny thing is that science would actually point towards there was a beginning that time is not eternal, that the universe has not eternally existed, it had a beginning point. Yeah, in fact, uh it was Albert Einstein who who thought the universe had constantly expanded, and so he actually created a number because none of his math made sense and he couldn't figure it out. And so he created this cosmological quantity to make all of his math work, and then when Hubble discovered, no, there's a beginning, we can see this, and he looked back, he changed because he realized no, I was it had a beginning point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think it's amazing to know that even today, when we talk about the Big Bang as though it's something that would happen way back in history, it's actually still happening in the in the context that the outer reaches of the universe are continuing to expand at an ever uh exponentially faster rate. So, you know, you because that one of the counters that will often happen is this idea of a big bounce. It's like, well, you know, the the universe is eternally expanded and then contracted and then can expanded and then contracted. But the problem is there is no scientific data to actually back that up. There is nothing in the physical universe that can tell us that that is the way that it is. Um and I think that that kind of if we're if as we're talking about the tensions here, one of the tensions that we have to navigate is when science becomes scientism, where it it gets beyond just trying to measure things to becoming the theory for everything, right? Like to to quote the movie. But uh and so I mean to that, um I think that that I think that that would that's what partially causes the problems here is that we try to to make science do try to make God do something that he has not said he'll do, and also to tell science to do something that it cannot do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um it's like when you get to your calculator and you get above a number that it can that it can fit on its screen. It's like, well, sorry, I can't I can't do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, and the irony I think is a lot of people that try to make science do something it wasn't meant to do is what they do is they effectively create a religion of science, I would argue. Because if you think about what religion is, religion lots of times people would define it as it's something that's regarded with reverence and authority. And certainly science becomes that. Yeah uh you know, religion's supposed to give existential answers. Science becomes that for people. Uh that ultimately uh religion gives moral authority, which a lot of people they will go to science to to try to base their moral, uh, moral convictions. Uh and then even things like rituals and worship to the same point. You can make some arguments there that it can become, in some ways, almost ritualistic and and devoted in a sense of worship towards the creation instead of the creator. So it's ironic to me, I guess, in some sense, where people see these two combating. Like if you're on that s on the quote, science camp that that says I'm against religion. Well, it's potentially true that you actually made science into your religion. You just don't realize it. Um To your point earlier, the two aren't supposed to be enemies. Yeah. That holds me. We're supposed to to use science to help us enhance our worship for God, and that's why he gave it to us.
SPEAKER_02And see, I think where I would wind up arguing, at least now, and this actually does kind of go back into what Nathan was saying earlier. Um, I would generally say that the broader public is really not in a space where they personally are saying that science disproves the uh existence of God. Where I where I think most people actually wind up is being afraid of there being a tension between the two and trying to ignore the question of I'm afraid that if I really look into this, then my belief and my token belief in God is going to get shattered and I'm not gonna know what kind of answers. Um and so because of that fear of possibly being let down, I think that that's where the majority of this tension now exists. That I mean, because there are a lot of scientists, one one of the scientists that I you you brought Hugh Ross, uh uh a guy named Francis Collins, who's the head of the National Institutes of Health, one of the uh authors of the Human Genome Project, I mean, he he's a believer and he's not ashamed of it. Uh I mean it it but I think when if you talk to the average person, even in in a church or on the street, about this tension between science and faith, I think it's more fear of the question than it is of an actual solid belief in it that they've actually experimented with and looked into and really asked themselves the questions on. I mean, what what do y'all think? Do you think I'm right, wrong, somewhere in between?
SPEAKER_01No, I think you're absolutely right. I think for a lot of people it's just kind of fear, fear based in like, well, good heavens, I what if I can't answer this question? Yeah, and it's somehow gonna lead you. But I I honestly I think that we don't really talk about that a lot. I think that doubt can be a really good thing. Yeah. I think that doubt can push you to figure stuff out and to go find out, like, well, I need to be able to give a defense of why I believe what I believe. And I need to be able to respond. Yeah. But I think part of it too is just it's uh like we talked about before, understanding you're not going to 100% give a satisfactory answer either way. Because at the end of the day, Jonathan referenced Romans Romans 1, you're dealing with a heart issue. And so there I've seen interviews and I've seen people talk about it. Uh I saw an interview with famous atheists, and he was at point blank, okay. Well, let's say 100% the by Christianity was proven to be true. You know God exists, you know he sent his son, all this stuff. Yeah, would you believe? And he goes, No. So at that point, you're not dealing in in facts or anything like that. You're dealing in a heart issue, and I won't I don't want that. Like I want to be God, I want to make my own choices. And so you can kind of hit that point as well, where some people you're not dealing with an actual quest for knowledge, you're dealing with a heart issue of I refuse to believe this, I refuse to follow this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think uh it is suppressing the truth. It goes back to that Romans 1 argument. That's what we're told is that creation uh says no to the creator and suppresses the truth that was plainly revealed. And it's sometimes it's not so much that God uh hasn't revealed himself to us and that we can't see his fingerprints on this world, it's that we don't like it. Like we suppress it because it's not that we can silence it and say it's not there. We just we just try to make it quieter with all this other noise because it demands a response from us at the end of the day. Um so I think you're right. I think that's a huge part of it too. And I think something else that's a pitfall that people miss that try to create the the false dichotomy between the two different sides. On the science camp, they'll say, Trust the science, trust the science, this is what I put my faith in. Yeah, you do, but also a couple things you have to at least take note of. Science changes constantly. So you're actually putting your faith in something that's moving. So why would you put all your eggs in a basket of something that admittedly is not foolproof? It's changing day by day, year by year, but you're gonna shape your whole life on something that's movable versus the word of God in Isaiah 40, verse 8. We're told the grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever. So you're building your faith on something that's actually less rock solid because it's constantly moving. And I'll add one second point to that too. You are building your life really on the revelation of man, of other people. Because most people, there are some highly intelligent, you know, scientists that are way above, you know, anything I could ever understand. They have an incredible aptitude, they've researched, they've studied, they have degrees. That's all they do. They're scientists. But most people that Nathan's kind of alluding to that reject God and in pursuit, quote, of science, they're just placing their faith in bloggers. Like they're just they're reading people's articles online, and then they're taking that as gospel truth. And the reality is it's like, well, brother, you actually haven't even studied anything. What you're doing is you're taking a leap of faith to trust a higher authority, and that authority is just some guy with some degrees. And and so it's it's it's interesting, I guess, the hypocrisy in that sense.
SPEAKER_02And we all we all want an authority, right? And I would argue that part of the reason that happens is because the church has historically failed to interact with science in a way that actually allows the question to be asked. Um because that where where does that fear come from? It comes from the fact that the authority figures said, shut up and don't ask questions. And I think that's I think we're in a very different environment now. I mean, because obviously apologetics is everywhere, you you know, you have Lee Strobel stuff on ever like books everywhere. But um, you know, that it's just not always been the case. And um, you know, it it is interesting how we also do tend to shadow the th these things that we say are true without saying what our presuppositions are that brought us to that point. And people tend to be we like we like to think of ourselves as not multifaceted, but we are. And there are multiple factors that come into our backgrounds and into our lives that lead us to become the way that we are and make the presuppositions and the guesses that we make because of the way because of a multitude of factors. Some things are learning that we've had, sometimes the way we've been treated by other people, which you you would never have in a scientific paper, but at the same time, um it's part of humanity that that we have a very hard time separating and compartmentalizing uh our feelings about things and our thoughts about things from emotion and science and learning. Like they they we we're people, we ball it all up and then we put it all out there together. Um but again, I think you know, I uh it it is interesting that this is a tension, and if so, knowing that this is a rivalry and a tension, and but also knowing that there maybe it's not necessarily so, how then can a a believer who's a citizen of this world, citizen of the next, how do we navigate the tension, how do we navigate the rivalry in a way that is positive and growing?
SPEAKER_03I think for starters you just have to acknowledge that they're not actually rivals. I think starting there is a good foundation as a believer to say that yes, you can be pro-faith and pursue the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, but also pursue science and discovery and and it's all about channeling those things. So, but I think I think just coming to that conclusion that that science in and of itself is not bad. I think I'm speaking from a Christian perspective, not from the other side, but I think that's a healthy start, is just acknowledging that science is grace that God's given us to point us back towards Himself and also to lead towards advancement of the human condition and and really the good of society.
SPEAKER_02Well, and don't forget what what God's commandment was to Adam at the beginning is subdue nature and have dominion over it. I mean, that's what is science if not that. It's understanding when is it going to rain and how does a what what kind of food does a donkey eat? And I mean, like all this kind of stuff. I mean, to me, that that is part of our created order that we were designed to interact and understand the science in nature.
SPEAKER_03Like I have acid reflux. I am glad that once upon a time somebody scientifically discovered Prilosec. And now I take that every day, so I can still eat greasy food and do what I want. And it's gonna be commercial. But in all seriousness, to that point, like it's like, yes, medicine, science, these things, they are gifts from God that that are stewarded by us, but it just comes to that point of yes, we don't put our faith in that though. It's a tool, it's something that God's given us that that that leads to a better quality of life and glory to him.
SPEAKER_01And my my big recommendation would be uh we had a we had a student come in one time uh and he brought in uh the God delusion, which was written by Richard Dawkins. Yeah. Richard Dawkins is infinitely more intelligent than I am, and he knows in terms of like his knowledge of science and stuff like that. So this kid's like, okay, I want you to answer this book for me. And I'm like, I'm not Richard Dawkins. Like, I'm not I'm not the guy for this. I was like, so I think a lot of times it it's finding people who are intelligent and who also believe in Christianity. Like, it's not like we're all just fools. There are people out there who do this for a living and they are apologists, and it's what they come up with. Yeah, and I think that's important as well. Is like when you're trying to look stuff up and reference it, it's like find equal sources. Like, don't don't go to your to your local friend to him, have him answer Dawkins questions. Yeah, because you're probably gonna get an answer that you want in some of those situations, but instead finding good resources. There's a book I I've got it in front of me. We don't want to get too into the weeds, but I think uh it's the book is Is God Just a Human Invention? It's by Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow, and it is a phenomenal book. And what it's gonna reveal to you is that science is not as settled on some of these things as we would think, and that there is a lot of stuff out there, especially when it comes to the creation account and things like that, where there's actually a lot of signs that point to intelligent design, but it's actually one of those things where it's like you have Dawkins, for instance, admitting biology is the study of life, and it shows that it seems like life was designed for a purpose. Yeah, and looking at the fine-tuning of the universe and going, this doesn't prove God by any means, but it's like if any of these factors change, we wouldn't exist. But he's like, that doesn't mean there's a God, it was just random chance. Like life was always going to happen. So that'd be kind of my advice is like find resources for yourself of people who are responding and they have the same education and same level as some of these guys that you're listening to right on the opposite side.
SPEAKER_02And I mean, I and one of the things, because like I'm a dad of a of a 10-year-old girl, and I mean, she asks me these questions coming from science class and stuff like that. And my my response often is, well, who says that's true? Like, what what what is the proof behind what that that statement was by that other person in your class? Because and and that's why I pointed out earlier the idea of fear, because usually it's the person with the loudest voice in the room that wins the debate. I mean, you look at Christopher Hitchens and you look at his arguments, there's not a lot, I mean, most of his stuff is just bombastic, angry speak, and it's and he'll throw he'll throw uh an emotional grenade into it to try to scare everybody away from saying it, to from combating it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And while it works in debate, that's not how science, that's not how a pursuit of knowledge is supposed to work. And that was one of the things that you said, Nathan, that I think is so important for the people listening on this, is don't be afraid to seek out answers. Like, don't even if you're not a trained scientist, to your point, there are resources out there for you to go and to discover and to challenge yourself to grow. I mean, just because we don't know necessarily the answer to a question that somebody walks up to us right now, that doesn't mean that we can't take 45 minutes, look up some resources, find a book. I mean, one one of the biggest uh things that we have now is the fact that Amazon will deliver these things to your door. I mean, we we have opportunities there to be able to learn for ourselves. And I think that that's oftentimes where the burden needs to fall for believers is learn. Like what what what there's no answer that's so hard that we should that God doesn't give us the resources to pursue learning about it. I I think.
SPEAKER_03I think also I would encourage believers, don't let uh don't let what you may view as as your inability to speak scientifically, um to your point, get educated, but two, still lean into what God has given you in the gospel. And I think sometimes we get intimidated to go back to that same point because we feel like we don't have enough. You already have enough with the gospel to communicate with someone who doesn't believe. Uh 1 Corinthians 1.18 that the word of the cross is is folly to those who are perishing, but those who are being saved is the power of God. And and uh Matt, I saw you make note of a passage that's a great one in 1 Corinthians 2.14 that the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him, but we have the mind of Christ. So God's given us the mind of Christ, but we're told that the natural person doesn't accept the things of the Spirit of God. And so there's also, I guess, that part of just kind of preparing ourselves in a sense, spiritually, when we are going into tough conversations with others, go get researched, go answer questions, go do everything you just said, but also understand that there is a spiritual barrier sometimes to people actually having a reasonable conversation about the reason to believe. Yeah. And that has to be broken down spiritually through the power of the Holy Spirit. And you have to pray for that and and uh and realize that that is that is what you need for to be successful at most.
SPEAKER_02I think like a lot of things in life, it's a both and kind of kind of thing. And I mean, even to what you're to you what you're talking about, uh one of the other passages that I pulled up in in preparing for this was James uh chapter four, verse thirteen. Come now, you who say today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit, yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, if the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that. I think that that is where a lot of our um tendency comes is we we we come into this equation of life with the assumption that I am gonna be here tomorrow and that I do have control over my next breath. I I often think about one of the things I think is amazing is the grace of the fact that we that our heart beats without us even thinking about it. Um I mean there there's there's something to that that that every breath that we take, every heartbeat that we take is not under our control. Um and so there's a I think one of the the spiritual things that you you are getting to and that is humility that we have to get to the point where we understand it's not we're not in charge of this. Um I often look at it from the perspective of why do we watch the weather channel so much? Because we want to have control over the world around us. I want to know that it that when I go outside, I'm not if it's gonna rain, then I'm not gonna get wet. Um but that only works if you have dominion over everything. And and so I think we struggle with that. And so before we close here, then I do think we need to address those then who are who love science and are believers, um, what kind of encouragement can we give, can we give them uh before we sign off today?
SPEAKER_01I say I would echo what John said before. There's not a rivalry. Like God, if God created everything, then God created the laws of the universe and God created the foundation of what we know is to be science. And I would say a big encouragement, because I think a lot of times if you are, especially if you're in college or or you're younger and you're professional and you're in that field of science and you are a believer, most of the people around you, or a lot of people around you, probably are not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I do think we were talking about it a second ago. I I think at the end of the day, it's important to remember the heart of the gospel, which is that we're trying to see people come into the faith. We're not trying to win an argument. Yeah. Um, and so I just started this apologetics class and the illustration it gives us not being a gunslinger apologist, and the idea of I'm gonna learn some facts and I'm just gonna go win a duel. That's not the goal, right? The goal is that we want to see people come to a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, in humility, being able to know it, but also being able to communicate it in grace and the opportunity to bring someone to the Lord and evangelize, not to just go out there and beat someone over the head with facts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I guess as we close, I do have a quote from Copernicus that I would encourage those of you who are of the um if that if that's the field that you in you're in and that's where your aptitude lies, uh, Copernicus said uh to know the mighty works of God, to comprehend his wisdom and majesty and power, to appreciate in degree the wonderful working of his laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more great be more grateful than knowledge. And so my encouragement to you is that just like we talk about every other career out there, of doing whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your heart. It's working for the Lord, not for men, do that in science as well. Understanding that the more that we discover about his world is gives us more ground to be able to give glory in. Um and so that's my encouragement to you that just like uh UT and AM are not a real rivalry. Sorry, I had to walk out of here. I had to do that one time on here. Um, but in the same way, science and faith are not rivals. So thank you for taking the time to join us today on this podcast, and we're looking forward to seeing you next time on Citizen ATX as we continue to deal with the rivalries of our life and our faith. Take care.