Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: The Trinity
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God is one person, but also three people. But how is 1 also 3? Many scholars have tried to reason the Trinity. None have scratched the surface of who God is. In this episode, we talk about the significance of the Trinity. We also review the role of the Trinity in Creation. Join Matt, Jonathan, and Stephen as they start this new series Building on Foundations.
Hello there and welcome to another season of Citizen ATX. We are excited to be with you here on 2026 as we're hitting a new year, new series, new me. And so we are excited for everything that's coming up. With me in the studio as we start our new year is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And also Stephen Vaughn. Hello, Stephen. Hello. And if you're new to the Citizen ATX podcast, we are part of Austin Baptist Church in Austin, Texas. And we do this podcast of Citizen ATX to talk about what it means to be a citizen both of our secular world and of our spiritual faith and how we combine those two things. And so the series that we're going to begin today dovetails perfectly in with that. That as we here at Austin Baptist Church in spring of 2026 have begun a series on the first three chapters of the book of Genesis called Foundations. Each week from stage, uh Pastor Jonathan is going to be leading a sermon series that speaks on these particular topics that arise in Genesis chapters one through three. And what we're going to do in this podcast series is take that foundation, the series is called foundations, and then we're going to build on those foundations. So each week we're going to make commentary on areas that were not able to be covered in the sermon from that past week and hopefully give more clarification to this whole process. Part of this experiment, I'll say I love experiments because it means if it doesn't go well, we're all great. But one of the things that I love about what we're doing with this is also that you as the listener can pitch in questions to this conversation. If you go online to our podcast resource page, you'll all you'll also find a link. You'll find a link uh uh displayed in services at ABC. Um but we'd encourage you if there are questions that arise for you as we continue walking through this series and walking through understanding of the first three chapters of Genesis, we would encourage you to tune in and ask the questions you have so that we can talk about these things together. All right. And so, how we feel, guys. Ready to start? Yeah. Let's go. All right, let's do it. So, first question is a question about questions. When we come to when we come to the book of Genesis and we recognize that in the creation account, uh we have all these problems, all these disagreements, all of these discussions about how things came to be. And so the thing that first comes to my mind is this why doesn't God answer all the how questions when we hit Genesis 1 through 3? I mean, we're talking about the beginning of the world. Uh God is giving his perfect revelation um, supposedly, or apparently to Moses uh here way 3,500 years ago. Why didn't he go ahead and talk about quantum physics and uh the singularity of the Big Bang and how which which did come first, the chicken or the well, I think he actually does say which that is. That's for a future episode. But what did the philosophy and the science of how this world came to be? Why does God leave so many of those answers or questions unanswered as we start the book of Genesis?
SPEAKER_00We'll get to some of those maybe specific things, but I'll say on the front end, I think it's one, I think we have to just come in humbly into the understanding if we really are trying to follow God and trust him in his word, we have to acknowledge that we are not God. And number one, you're never going to get all the answers because you don't have the capacity of God. So I think you have to start there that why don't we get all our questions answered? Well, number one, we're not on equal playing ground with God. I think that's that just has to be understood and inferred from the beginning. You can't handle it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you can't handle it.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly right. Literally. Well, and the word of God talks about that. In Deuteronomy chapter 29, 29, it says the secret things belong to the Lord, and the things that belong to man are only those that have been revealed to him. So God does not reveal everything. And and part of that, I truly do believe is because the creation is not on an equal footing with the creator. And I think we have to remind ourselves of that humbly because sometimes we get that God complex intellectually that, oh, I can get there, I'll figure it out, I'll crack the code, I'll understand everything. No, you will not. But I think there are some, there is still to a level of understanding that you can pursue. Um, so I think starting there, Matt, of just that foundation is important to understand that we don't have the capacity, his ways are higher than our own. But then when you get into what was revealed, if we're now talking about, well, okay, well, then what did he say and what did he not say? I think much of Genesis is also being spoken. We always forget the context of scripture, that this is being spoken to a group of Hebrews that are being taught lies, myths through ancient Near Eastern religion and all the different paganism and things going on in those days, where God is providing clarity in the broad strokes of where did they come from? How did we get here as humanity? And that's why I said on Sunday, I think a lot of it is focused on the who versus the how, and the who points back to him as their creator and ultimately then in that context as their redeemer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you you say that it makes me think of something that frustrates me a lot, actually, when I read books sometimes, is when you get that big cliffhanger and then it's the end of the book, and you're like, oh no, I have to wait for the next one to come out. But it almost feels like that's kind of what God's done here in a way, because it's like he didn't answer all the questions. Well, there's a little bit of a cliffhanger there, and now we get to explore and try to figure some things out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I think it is partly a function of love at the end of the day because there is this opera. I think I think about this in a lot of areas of understanding of God and why why and how he does things, especially with perfect knowledge and full understanding. Um, the reality is we're called friends and not slaves. And so what what number one, the fact that it's addressed at all is something to be considered that there really is not you have we have to ask that question. If we are really are just pure physical biological beings, it doesn't matter where we came from. It doesn't make a lick of difference because we have no control over it, we have no ownership in it. Um a purely physical being is born and dies, and that's it. So eat, sleep, drink, and die. Like that's kind of that's kind of what what a lot of the materialist worldview winds up being. And when we consider the con like a cosmology of it, of the the uh tiny nature of the earth, the razor's edge upon wit of survival on which we depend as a human race, and the reality that there's never been any life found anywhere else in the universe, which we'll talk about hopefully in a next future episode. Um you're exactly right because that that Genesis talks about why why does it matter that you're here? Yeah. Why why would God bother with you?
SPEAKER_00The existential questions, yeah. And that's that's what matters most. I think also it's worth knowing too, Matt, because we're talking about if you're talking about the context of Moses is combating what they've understood that is false, and so he's speaking to that, but then also I think understanding the context of those people. The people 3,500 years ago that Moses is leading did not have the cosmic understanding we have today either. A lot of it didn't read. So once again, if this is God's revelation of himself to a people in a time and place of history, which this was recorded scripture and given, why is he not getting the weeds of all the laws and theories you have? It's because those laws and theories weren't known by man back then either. Like I mean, like that he's not those are questions they weren't asking, also the original audience.
SPEAKER_02Well, it would it would be like asking God, why didn't you, God, why didn't you reveal the Bible in English? Yeah. It didn't speak English. It doesn't make sense. Why didn't you give us a better word? But but it is a it is a historical bias that we carry into things, uh, that we always look at our the things that we would expect and want now, and why wouldn't God give me what I want in a time where it that has nothing to do with me? And the reality that, you know, I I try to remind this to a lot of people when when I'm teaching that you know, in the Bible, one of the major events was the gospel going across from Asia into Europe, because otherwise you don't you aren't here, you're not part of a church, and frankly, no, anyway, that gets onto a whole other kettle of fish. And so historically, the the one of the encouragements I think that we have to take from this is that we have in the account of Genesis one of the oldest historical documents in existence. It is the standard by which we know things that happened from a human recording standpoint. And so instead of us coming from a standpoint of let's criticize and tear it apart and why it's not good enough, why don't we recognize that we didn't deserve to have this either? And if God if if God did not care about humanity, why would he wouldn't have revealed any of this? Um he would have just let us do our thing and and so that so it does speak to that which is problematic for science when it comes to the idea of purpose and why of of nature.
SPEAKER_01And God God also knows the human mind and human curiosity, I think, better than we do. So he knows exactly what things to reveal that will be right, and he also knew that if he revealed too much, that we would probably hang ourselves with that information to be honest. Or you stumble over it, right? Stumble over it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and let's let's move then on to this next question, which will combine uh something that I that uh that I had come up with from this and also one of our online questions. Um and it's that question of what is the difference then between faith and knowledge? Um, if faith is most important, why should we learn about the world at all? And then bringing in kind of the question from online can science and the Genesis creation explanation be reconciled ultimately? So what as we're kind of moving into that track here of philosophical thought of science and faith and how they play together, what what what are we how do how should we consider that, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_00We'll have to kind of probably go with that. There's a lot of layers to that question. So I love to kind of watch her say probably one one piece at a time. Um faith and knowledge, if we're talking about the separation of those two entities, of how do you differentiate the two? Faith, Hebrews 11:1 is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. And so faith in essence is trust. It's it's really an action. I mean, it's something that's us responding with hope and certainty and belief in the things we cannot see, namely God. And so that is an action that that requires that trust. Then knowledge is based off of you know the material world of scientific study and assessment and measurement of physical realities. Faith is focusing on the God that we cannot see yet physically, and that requires being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. And so when you look at the world, and this is what we talked about in the sermon, the things in science and the things that we look at have the fingertips of God, fingerprints rather, of God all over it. And that was the way he created it was to help show us through science. I really do believe that a scientific discovery, evidence that points to a creator within the creation. So it's not that they are combative by any means. I think oftentimes when science is understood correctly, it brings glory to God because it shows his vastness, how big he is, his thoughtfulness as you look through all those things, and it points where there's questions left in science. The void is often filled, it's right there in faith because you don't get all your answers in science either.
SPEAKER_02And sometimes the way that I think about it, and it kind of as a mental picture, is the idea of like a ruler that's uh now one foot long trying to measure um an elephant, right? You take it, you take something that's a foot long and then say, Well, I'm gonna I now need to use this to try to measure what what is the elephant what is the elephant. And if you're if your uh if your view is only within that one foot window, and you're not gonna be able to tell what it is. You can't see the purpose, you can't see the quality. You you see aspects of it, you see characteristics, but you can't see the whole picture. And that's how I see science and faith interacting, that science has a limited scope of view. Because what science is is how can we measure things in the physical universe and then predict how they will function moving from there. But when you have when you say that word physical universe, it can only be the things that are observed, only the things that can be measured. And when you're talking about a God that is omniscient, omnipotent, beyond all time and space, then you're taking a foot-long ruler and trying to have it measure the divine. And it just it won't work that way. And it won't work to the to the level that we want it to. And when when I when I look at that difference between knowledge and faith, um knowledge is that discovery piece, it's understanding of things, but faith is also a is the trust in those and the greater truths that that direct all these things. Um I think that when we throw science out to say that it doesn't work, that science is is a bunch of made-up stuff, that's stupid because it's not it's a measurement system. It's an odd it's a tool that we use to understand our world and our universe. If it's is it gonna rain? Is the earth gonna fall into the sun, like things like that. But when we come to the ideas of faith, it's why do you matter as as a as a person? It's like you're bigger than just a biological be being that's here to reproduce and and um and uh fertilize the ground.
SPEAKER_00I think another difference also would be that science changes, God does not. And I think that's a big thing worth pointing. Um, that so often we put I say we, I'll just talk to the secular world. The secular world will put trust in a movable force, which is science. Um, it constantly changes. That's what makes it science. It's meant to be scrutinized and tested, and it changes over time. But God says that the grass withers and the and the flower fades, but the word of God lives forever. And so through faith, there's that constant, there's there's the certainty to go back to that same word and the definition, versus science, in essence, brings uncertainty. That's the whole point. You scrutinize it and that and that it changes over time with more discovery. Um, but it's an ongoing process. But I do think those are two different things. You know, one you can realize is an immovable force. The other is, yeah, this might be true what we think today, but give it another 100 years and let's see how you feel about that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think about the measuring mechanism of a qubit, right? And I always loved it when I was a kid. I would I would be looking in the Bible and then I'd go back to the the the most in the the the main part of the Bible that nobody ever studies is the uh chart of weights and measure that's at the end of the book. Like, what the heck is a talent? What do you mean, a bushel? But like even when like a qubit, which I guess was a was supposed to be from a man's wrist to his elbow, well it's like how how are you gonna create a measurement system off of that? And when was the last time you heard of anything being measured in qubits? Yet in the Bible, that is one of their measures of of real physical things. That changes over time. Uh you even think in our modern world, do you use kilometers or do you use miles when you're talking about distance? In 500 years, what are they gonna be using? It and it it complicates a lot of these things because we have we have laid a man-made system on top of things that man did not make, and as a result, we get frustrated because sometimes those things that we've laid it over don't play by the rules we place on it. Right. But that's why so much of what when you have real physicists who are really considering in this, so much of what they work with is theory. Right. Because it's not a this will happen every time, it's not a law of gravity where it you drop an apple, it'll fall every time. There are significant areas of science that are still in theoretical, uh uh officially theoretical area because they cannot be absolutely experimentally proven in every potential physical circumstance. Right. And so uh it is that I what what I what I hope people understand in this is when they come to the book of Genesis, again, the purpose was not to give a measurement system to the ancient Israelites. Um it was to give them a do you recognize that you were called out from nothing to be something, and beyond that to have the very spirit of God breathed into you, which we'll you know, y'all will talk about later. But um yeah, that idea of purpose has to be there at the at the front. And and I would say this that when it comes to knowledge, I think God has I like the word you used earlier, Stephen, of curiosity, but that is part of what God's design is for humanity, is for us to discover, to investigate, to ask the questions, which is where science comes in. It gives us the language to be able to talk about.
SPEAKER_00Well, the other place that science comes in that we didn't mention that I think is really important is science helps us actually walk in the decree that God gave to us, which is to cultivate and exercise dominion because scientific discovery leads to knowledge, which that knowledge then leads to action. It leads us to cultivate and and develop. And so science is not the bad guy by any means, but it's not the God. That's the point, is is God put together that resource to us so that we can understand things and then be builders and creators, if you will, ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So then let's ask this question, you know, when we and this might launch out a little bit ahead, but um has God finished creating? You know, when we we talk about that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and we'll talk here in a minute about some of the natures of the trinit the aspects of the trinity that we see there at the beginning. Um has God finished creating, and then why did God create anything in the first place? You know, you talk about a divine being that has all reality inside of himself, why bother?
SPEAKER_00On the has he finished creating, there's there's children that are being born right now as we're talking. So I would I would say no in that sense, where I believe all life comes from the life giver, so he's creating. Uh and the book ends in Revelation 21 with Jesus saying, Behold, I'm making all things new. So that creation process in that sense it's ongoing. Um, what the Bible also tells us is now that creation process is internal, not just external. That the external reality, as we look at Genesis, is when he's creating the cosmos, but now in Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, he creates something new. That's why in uh 2 Corinthians 5.17, we're told that anyone that is in Christ is a new creation, that literally something new is started in my life when I gave my life to Jesus Christ. So he's always working, he's always creating in that sense. Uh, and one day, the heavens and the earth that were created in Genesis 1, we're told will be replaced by new heavens and new earth that will respond in Revelation 21 and 22. So I guess the short answer is no. Um, but but Genesis one is where the Kickstarter is, if you will, where you see and you see the big splash on the scene, which is the cosmos as a reality.
SPEAKER_02It was a social media campaign.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. But but I think oftentimes too, I think this is more just the preacher talk, but I think we get so fixated on that physical creation kind of question and we miss the spiritual creation, and it which is really the whole point of what's how's God creating right now? He's creating people brand new, he's changing them, he's transforming lives. Uh and unfortunately, some people get so fixated on the physical creation they overlook the opportunity for spiritual new creation that comes through trust and faith in the living God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's where that term born again comes from. Exactly. When Jesus is explaining that in John 3, it's it's not a get better, and it's not a a uh create a medicine that will make you live forever. It's no, you have you have to be born, it's uh spiritually born again and born again in the identity of Christ. And so um I absolutely agree. And I think when we kind of speaks that second piece, why did God create anything in the first place? You know, later you will talk about the idea of the being created in the image of God. Yeah. I mean, it's calling alongside creation to do the things that He does and to and to see that move forward. But I'm not gonna steal y'all's thunder for future weeks on that. But let's talk then about another great mystery about the Trinity. Yeah. So I think we I think it it would be good for us to start in a place of defining for the listening audience what what do we mean when we say the Trinity? Yeah. Um and how does that relate here at the beginning of the book of Genesis?
SPEAKER_00It means we live we believe in one God in three persons, which it's monotheistic, not polytheistic. And this is where this is what makes fundamentally the God of the Bible different than the gods that the ancient Near East understood, because they understood a lot of different gods participated in creation and all had these different little realms of rulership and authority. And God reveals himself as the one monotheistic creator, but he's revealed in scripture as one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And and what you see in the creation order is is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together in triune community to bring all things to be, to bring all things into this world. And you see that shown in in Genesis as early as chapter one. I didn't mention the sermon. Some people point towards that name Elohim actually has a pluralistic tense. It's it's a loose connection. Some people see that as a slight nod to the Trinity, even within his first revealed name. But the more clear, explicit connection is where you see God at work in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, where the Father speaks things into creation, the Spirit hovers, and then in Colossians 1 and John 1, we're told this John 1. Uh in Colossians 1, we're told that uh Jesus, that all things were made in him, through him, and and for him. And so, yes, I mean the our triune God was there, he always has been. And in the Trinity itself, though, depends how deep we want to get into that, Matt. I mean, it's it's it's not an easy subject to just come to a I'm not gonna give you a satisfactory one-minute commentary that's gonna answer all your triune questions.
SPEAKER_02Well, if you if you did, that would be heresy. Yeah. And that's and listeners, I hope you understand that. That when it comes to the idea of the actual, like actual true understanding of the Trinity, if you ever hear somebody who says, I've got it all figured out, that person is is a heretic because there have been smarter people than us and the smartest minds in all of Christianity over the past 2,000 years that have made efforts to try to explain it and can't, because every time you do it, you say something wrong about God. And I do I do think that he he did this on purpose because again, when you made that statement earlier about one of the things that science does is it creates dominion over creation. Um the Same thing happens in areas like like uh the Trinity and and some other things where when we fail to have scientific and knowledge dominion over the concept of who God is, it keeps us in our correct place. That there are some mysteries that need to be bigger than us because the more our human our human nature is understanding leads to manipulation. Yeah. And God has no has no interest in that. And I and I don't and I also don't think we're I don't know that we're just even capable of doing that.
SPEAKER_00Well, and look no further than the Tower of Babel in that sense. I mean that was a scientific work. They were engineering, they were building, and they were building to go understand the knowledge and the secrets of God. And God said, No, you aren't. He said, We're not, we're not gonna play that game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we don't play that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's a perfect picture of that same idolatrous kind of desire that's in our hearts that we just we want to know the things of God, all of it. And at the end of the day, we only have that which is revealed to us by him. And I think that just has to be reinforced over and over. You only receive what he chooses to give when it comes to the knowledge of God. You don't get to dictate who he is, he tells you what he wants, and we only have what he's given us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so in the Trinity, the three persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, uh eternally in relation to one another, eternally active with one another, carrying out the will of each other, honoring one another, pointing back to their uh existence, um, but having no different difference of substance from one another. And so if this is the way the the form, I guess for lack of a better term, the format of who God is. Um the qu one of the questions that came online from online was why is it important to understand the Holy Trinity and its role in the creation of the world? Because if it's a mystery beyond what we can understand, why do we even bring it up here at the beginning as we're talking about this and the the that it is an important concept to understand in context of what's happening in Genesis 1-1.
SPEAKER_00One is to worship him properly. I'll just start there. Because I think I think you can't honor God if you if you don't acknowledge him for who he is. And and and this goes back once again to his revelation of himself. So you can't ignore what he's revealed. He wants you to know this and then respond to that in worship. And as you get into the triune uh conversation, which leads to a lot of like, oh my gosh, I d this is blowing my mind, God's like, yeah, that's the whole point. Your mind should be blown, worship me. And that and that's that's that's the point. I mean, that should be the night the right response from it is is one of awe. That's that's what that's what comes from from good theological uh study is awe. And that all leads to worship. So if you don't know who he is, you won't worship him properly. Uh, but then also I would argue you won't understand him in your daily life properly either. Um, because he's a triune God that wants a relationship with you, and then even understand, well, how do I relate to him? Well, partly you have to know how he relates to himself in order to relate to him, but then in your relationship with him, even understanding as you're appealing to the Father through the mediation of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit who's living in you, those things, as those like three sentences I just said, as those things begin to flesh out and you understand what that really means, it gives you new confidence in your faith and new power to understand what this relationship even looks like, what it really means.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it is hard, especially in the beginning of exploring your faith and all that kind of stuff, like as you're learning and being exposed to Christianity and scripture for the first time and this like concept of the Trinity. I've had people ask me like, like, or tell me that they don't really, they're not really at a place where they can believe yet, because they can't reconcile certain things with scripture, like the Trinity or other big topics, right? That we can't answer all the questions. And like, I really need to understand what this means before I can commit to believing in it. And I'm like, well, honestly, I think to an extent, you're not really going to understand it until you do believe in it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an inductive versus deductive reason.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And one guy that was an atheist that became a believer I talked to, he said that he came to the place, and I've heard people say this in different ratios. He said, I just came to the place where if I could feel like 80% made sense, like he got to the place where he got about 80% of his questions right. He said, I could take the step of faith on the other 20. And I thought that was just a good pragmatic way to look at it because it's true, because God gives us so many answers, and you can go into the scientific and the knowledge and the apologetic side. There's a lot of reasons to believe and get to that 80%, but eventually you will take a leap of faith. You're not going to get 100%, and you just have to acknowledge that.
SPEAKER_01And if you do enough exploring, you realize there's actually more reasons to believe than there are in the world. There are.
SPEAKER_02I agree. Yeah. I agree. Well, and I think when when we talk about you you made that statement about understanding the relationship of the Trinity to the different persons that are in it, and then being able to understand that in our relationships in the world. What occurs to me in that is that in the persons of the Trinity, you have Father and Son and Spirit, you have, and then you have many of some of the aspects that we know of these three members of the Trinity of authority, of respects slash love, and wisdom, which then lead us in our lives to the way that we interact in the world. If we're going to identify with the Trinity as our Trinitarian God is creating the world, how are we interacting with our world with power? How are we interacting with our world in love and respect that that go in balance together? And how do we interact with our world in truth? Yep. That God gives us these aspects of who he is so that we can rightly impact and change our world for him. And where we find ourselves starting to get off on that, where we say, Well, we're going to, I'm going to sell off some of the truth so that I can gain more power for myself. Well, then we start seeing how sin comes into the system and and how we begin trying to take it for ourselves. Um and I mean, if there's anything about uh what's interesting about the Trinity, the fact that it is relational but also unit unified is that it's both selfish and selfless, somehow in the same thing, where all glory belongs to its set to God Himself, while at the same time he gives all glory to every member of the Trinity. And so that might sound crazy confusing, because it is, but at the same time one of the things that I find about understanding of the Trinity versus a completely sterile idol kind of kind of God or whatever, is that idea of action, of life, of change, of growth, that you have this unchanging changer that that is constantly moving through our world. And so what that what for me, what that does is when I see this this creation account, I see movement and I see growth and I see risk and understanding and adventure. All the things that we value about life. Um and I think in that we're able to understand better the heart of God, that why did God create something rather than nothing? Because he saw that something was good and better than nothing. And that he saw that the act of creation and the the act of creating a world was what was truthfully good versus the chaos of and of the void, which we'll talk about next week.
SPEAKER_01You know what's beautiful about that, and also why I love this question. Um in the first three verses, like it breaks down each of the three, like each verse kind of represents a different member in that if you look at it. Because like the first one is in the beginning, God created, well, that's Father, creator, sustainer, right? And so I think of well, God's my creator, he's my sustainer, he is my source of life, right? But then there's also number two, uh, the spirit hovers over the face of the waters. Well, the spirit is with me, his presence is with me wherever I go. And then I think of, well, verse three, God said, Let there be light. God is the word, he's given us his word, but he also speaks words into us and life into us in different moments and gives us what we need. That's kind of where I go, I guess, to connect. That's why I think understanding the Trinity in those aspects is you get to see the different parts of the Trinity work in your life, and that's gets revealed.
SPEAKER_00I think something that also should be noted is the big picture is you see the tr the triune God work in perfect harmony and perfect community to create something beautiful. I think it's the point is you see that oneness and you see the oneness working together to create and build. Right. And when you think of where the triune, this is the application of the Trinity, where is there supposed to be oneness and that triune likeness in the world? There's really two perfect, you know, uh pictures of it where it's supposed to play out in our own imperfect way. It's marriage and it's the church. Because in marriage, two become one. And as as you relate husband and wife together, you are also mutually honoring, mutually submitting, and you're mutually serving one another. And you see the same kind of picture there where you actually walk out in that Trinitarian-like relationship to create oneness, and then through that marriage, create and build a home. You're building something beautiful together. The other side of that is in the church, where we are the body of Christ and we are many parts, but we're one body, is what we're told. And even Jesus himself in John 17 prayed, Father, make them one as we are one. And that was his whole point, is he saying, I want the world to see through this body, through this church, the oneness of us, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Because within the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is the Father would decree, and the Spirit would would submit willfully and joyfully under his authority. Yeah. And then the Spirit submitted under the testimony or under the word of the Lord, or under, excuse me, of Jesus, and actually would give glory to Christ. The whole ministry of the Holy Spirit is to bring glory and honor to Jesus Christ. So within that, you see that perfect triune, no ego, you know, mutual submission, mute, mutual uh honor, and also authority that's being exercised there too. And then you look into the church, because the church, we've had a whole podcast about this, but the whole like, oh, authority's bad. Well, it's in the Trinity, and and we're supposed to actually model the triune God. And then the whole submission, I don't want to do what he's at. Well, Jesus submitted to the Father and the Spirit submits to the Son. Because it's the truth. And and that's kind of my point is the church, when it's done correctly, and we're imperfect people, which I fully understand, but we're supposed to model the triune God to the whole world. And I think that's what gets missed a lot is why does the Trinity matter? It's because we're supposed to look like it. Like we're supposed to be a reflection of his glory ultimately to the world that has authority complexes, submission, and honor and respect problems.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that that uh segues us into one last question that was that was brought up online uh for this session. Um, and the the person who entered it online said, Um, I know God created me for a relationship with him, as we've been talking about the trin a lot of the Trinitarian things. Because of the choices I've made, things I have done, horrible evil, evil thoughts, I cannot seem to apprehend his love and walk as a new creation what to do. Um you know, the we were talking about this and and and even it occurs to me when we were talking about marriage, which I absolutely agree with, you know, he talks about the two become one new creation, uh, and the role of the church that's supposed to be unified, uh, unique, but also one. Um, it occurs to me that a lot of people struggle to understand that based on the real brass tacks of life, that marriages break up, that people have bit have been betrayed through various things like that. That there are Lord knows there's a whole whole rack of broken churches out there. In fact, not all churches probably are broken to a little bit extent. And so, how are we supposed to reconcile those two things? Um, that um understanding that how can how how do we get past the personal guilt and um the clamping down on our hearts that sin has done for us to be able to even understand a perfect and holy God.
SPEAKER_00For whoever wrote that uh question, thank you for that. I'll first of all say that. I know that's a very personal, vulnerable thing to say. Um I would encourage that listener and anybody else that identifies with that uh question that you're not alone. I mean, that's that's a very normal thought. Um Paul Paul communicates it in his own way in Romans chapter 7 uh in verse 15. He says, For I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do the things that I want to do, but I do the very thing that I hate. And he's talking about that as a guy who wrote about new creation in Christ. He's saying, Sometimes I feel kind of old. Like I don't I don't think I'm really doing what the right new thing should be. And so if that's you, you're you're not alone. And I think that's why number one, how do you combat that if we're getting to kind of like what do you do about it? You have to hold fast to truth. Like this is why the gospel is not a one-time thing where you listen to it, then just move on. You have to remind yourself and renew your mind, Romans 12, with the truth of God day by day by day. Truth combats lies, and what the enemy loves to do is bring shame and blame and guilt when Jesus already took it all for you, um, and he's removed that. And so you don't have to walk in that anymore. Um, but if you're not being renewed through Christ daily, through his word, through the truth, and through his people, you'll struggle with your own just emotional health in that battle. Now, when it comes to the side of just finding freedom from that, it's a pathway. I think that's why it's also worth being noted. What does that mean to be made new? I am still being made new to this day. I've been put into a new position. I'm made new. My identity's now in Christ. The old is gone. I'm now not the old Jonathan, I'm the redeemed Jonathan because Jesus bought me. So I now have a righteousness that's been given to me, but I still walk daily in some unrighteous things. That happens in all of our thoughts and deeds. And that's the picture of what God's trying to do is He's chosen us as his bride and he's preparing us day by day. He's actually cleansing us and washing us and sanctifying us is the word, till ultimately the day he comes and receives us, and then he makes us new. Right. And so that idea of sanctification, it's a lifelong crawl. And so I can be made new where my standing, in other words, has changed, my standing with God, but my state with God, that can be in flux day by day. Um and that's the reality is you you can have changed your standing. I'm now made right with God through faith in Jesus. But my state is different than my standing. Where today, because of the decisions I make, I might be a train wreck before God and I might feel really bad and I need to repent of some things and change some things, but that doesn't change my standing. That I'm still there. He's just saying, like Peter says, don't go return to the vomit. Like stop it. Or Paul says, you know, you keep putting on the old self instead of the new self. We put on those old garments when God's put on new. And that just comes into the daily decisions of we gotta we gotta work through this thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it's that idea that you can continue growing as a new creation, even if you're sitting in Austin traffic listening to an AM football game. Yeah, I think one of the things that that often happens, and I, you know, I I a lot of this question, listener, is um is connected in with the reality of sin in the world and the brokenness of creation, which will we cover, which will be covered in detail here in further weeks. But one thing I would encourage you about, even particularly when we're when we're considering the Trinity and why it's so beautiful, is that it is that picture that we worship a both and God, not an either or. And that because we so often in this world look to categorize things and say, well, you're on one side or you're on the other side, or things like that. Reality is God is both and he is over all of this. And either you know, we we are in him, and the the choice is not, well, are you gonna be on his side or not? It's gonna be, are you gonna accept what he's done and who he is, or are you going to ignore it? Because it doesn't matter. I mean, ultimately, it doesn't matter which he appear or it it you don't change the outcome based on what you choose to embrace as reality. It is reality and we live in it. Um and when it comes to the idea of a both and God, it's it's that again, he is more powerful than we could ever possibly imagine. He is more loving than we could ever possibly imagine, he is more living and active than we can ever possibly imagine. And as a result, any the uh all the time that we're growing into him, we'll never outgrow him. Um and also you'll never fall below a place that he can't redeem you. Right. And um, and so I want you to be encouraged, friend, that if you were going to put in this question, you're gonna think, well, this I'm I'm living in an either or world and I've screwed up, so therefore I can't be on the other side of this. It's ultimately that God has redeemed you at your worst, and he redeemed you, he also redeemed you at your best. And so as a result, he is calling you to grow from that and to and to come out of places that would demean destroy and diminish you.
SPEAKER_00And yeah. Can I add one thought to that too, Max? I think you said, because you talked about, you said not that you said it well, of accepting that truth that you have to use that word accept. I think it's accept that truth, but then also the other uh verb I'd say that is required is yielding to that truth. Yeah. Because I think that gets into what you're saying there on the closing end of the action steps, because I think a lot of people get frustrated because they accept the truth, it's in their heart, but they're not growing because they're not yielding to the spirit's desire for their life. And and I think that's so much of it, and that gets into the response of where do I go from here? You have to yield to Christ and and also yield to people and his people particularly. Um, and so I would just encourage you if that's you listening to this, you have to abide to have fruit. Jesus says that. And it's abiding in him, yielding to his spirit as he's calling you out on those fleshly things to get rid of, but then also yielding to one another and actually coming alongside other believers to help you walk in that because you're not going to do it alone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and I think of it as the picture, and you've probably many of you have probably seen this meme online, but of the guy riding a bicycle and sticking a stick in the spokes of his own wheel and then the thing falling over itself. I think a lot of us for in our Christian life, when you say the under having the truth and accepting it in your heart, but not submitting to it is exactly the same way. Of you recognize I'm on the bicycle, but I'm going to do something that I know is going to be self-destructive in that, and then I'll be confused as to why it happened. And that's ultimately the reality of it. Submission to that which we know is true is not lessening of self, it's actually interacting with reality in the way that we were designed to react with interact with it. And so, um, yeah, I mean, it it is a different worldview for sure and understanding of it, but I think ultimately when we look at creation, when we look at the perfection that's there, we are growing back into what we were always meant to be. Um, and that when we sin, when we fall short, we are really just doing damage to ourselves and sticking that spoke in our uh stick in our own spokes. So all right. Well, we completely explained the Trinity. Everybody's good. You know, we're gonna uh for all those publishers out there, we will be waiting for our book deal here coming up. But no, we hope that you you've heard this and understood it. You know, this is our best interpretation of how the Trinity is interacting through here through the beginning of the book of Genesis. And if you have questions about this, good, because there are always more questions. And we hope that you know that we're all growing in the same way. And so we hope that as you continue to embrace your relationship with God and your understanding of who he is and leaning beyond just knowledge into faith, that you would continue to grow in that, in that satisfaction of the adventure of what faith is, that as we believe, we learn and grow more. So, friends, on behalf of Jonathan and Stephen, we're glad that you've joined us on this podcast. Next week, we will continue here in Genesis 1, 1 through 3, moving on to this idea of light and how this creator God interacts with it. But till then, thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.