Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: The First 5 Days
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It says in Genesis 1 that God created the earth in all of these days. But what even is a day? How do we have light without a sun? Are dinosaurs here at this point in the story? Join Jonathan, Corbin, and Stephen as they unpack all of these questions and more.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Stephen Vaughn, and we're so glad that you decided to join us as we continue our installment of Building on Foundations. And so joining me in the studio today is Pastor Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Steven. And also joining me today, uh, not for the first time, but it's been a little bit of a little bit of time, is Corbin Smith. Hello, Corbin.
SPEAKER_02Hello, there's a new sheriff in town, everyone. I'm ready to be here. Goodbye, Matt. Out with the old in with No, I'm just kidding. I'm glad to be here. New doctor in the house. That's Matt's taking over. We got some razzle dazzle in store for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so, listener, if you're if you're wondering, where's Matt? Where is he gone? Well, he's on sabbatical, so we've asked Corbin to step in and take over his seat as host. And so, Corbin, welcome in. And I'm gonna throw it over to you. What are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_02Well, we're gonna be talking about the book of Genesis, like we have been, uh, and I'm just I'm stoked to kind of go over what Jonathan talked about in his sermon on Sunday. Uh really hitting quite a bit of Genesis one. When we talked about and kind of plan this out, I don't think I remembered like how much of Genesis one we were gonna tackle because we we did so much like less the first two weeks. Depending on your toe. So I was like, he's gonna keep- I was I was watching, we were we were doing the the winter thing, it was snowed in. Um I hope you all aren't all staying warm, by the way. Um as the ice melts off. And I kept looking over my mind and like, I'm always still going. Not because it felt long, but just like I didn't realize how much text we were going. It's on the record now, Corbin.
SPEAKER_00That's right, man.
SPEAKER_02That's a typical youth passage. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's pre-recorded. We can go a little bit longer.
SPEAKER_02I'm actually, I was taking it, man. It's you you you get your whole message. That's uh yeah, I can go on a whole tangent about preaching like a later service, you get to preach more of your message. That's so cool. Um well, hey, let's jump into Genesis chapter one on that note. Um we talked a lot about creation. Uh we've been talking a lot about creation, uh, but you talked about this some in your sermon, Jonathan. Uh kind of the di debate between old earth creationism, young earth creationism, the Hebrew word yam. Um I I could unpack that all, but I think it'd be better if you did it. Do you want to talk just a little bit, mile high level, about what we talked about there on Sunday?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I tried to condense it, which I'll try, you know, here as well, because you're exactly right, Corbin. There's volumes you can read on this, but but at the end of the day, it comes down to how do you interpret a day? And and that word in Hebrew can be used in different variations in the Old Testament text. Sometimes it is speaking literally of a 24-hour uh sequence of time, but sometimes it just means an extended period of time. And so that leaves interpretive discussion then on what is Moses talking about when he writes this? Is he actually speaking of a literal 24-hour day where God literally made the earth in six 24-hour days? Uh or is he speaking of a uh unknown, lengthier amount of time? And and ultimately the answer that leads you to one of those two camps of either a young earth or old earth interpretation, because if you believe it's literal, you believe it's 24 hours, it reconciles some of the genealogies and things that you put together sequentially in the Bible to then go backtrack to say, well, then Matt means the world's about 6,000 years old. The problem is science says absolutely the opposite. And so then you have on the other side people are saying that's impossible. Science says it's you know billions of years old, but science would be in many people's minds then uh vindicated through the creation account if those days were actually meant figuratively, not literally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well that's that's all super interesting stuff. I know you talked about it just a little bit, uh, but if you want to just walk through where do you land on that issue? I think that's what everyone said. I want you to go on the record now so that we can all crucify you for it later. It's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01I mean I I I do lean towards young earth, which is what I said, but I will also admit on the front end, I have flip-flopped over my Christian journey on this. I have not flip-flopped on Christ, I am firmly rooted in Jesus, but on this issue, as are some other secondary, tertiary matters, I've studied and I see valid, valid points and I also see holes in both arguments. Um, if if I were gonna say, answer kind of the question of why, if it's really bowling down, why have I landed more new earth or younger earth? I think at the end of the day, death and decay pre-fall is a struggle for me. Um, and I think that's really where a lot of the argument is, at least in my mind, to the crux of it for a lot of young earthers, because if you're gonna believe in an older earth, there is an explanation that I understand that death and decay existed pre-fall, but then there's a new form of death, spiritual death, and that came with sin, with Adam, and there on day six, but there was death and decay by an old most old earthers, they'd all say that it had to be for the earth to live forever. There was a natural biological cycle of life and death. I get it, but I just kind of struggle to get there. It seems like the fall in my mind would have a more literal cosmic consequence to then death becomes real for everything. Um I also just tend on a personal level to read and interpret the Bible more literally, just in general. Um that's just kind of how how I read it, right or wrong. That's just how I read it. Um I know for some people they struggle to do that in their mind through just their rational thinking and critical minds. I just lean in very heavy on faith that I don't have to have all the answers, and I can live with that of a little bit of the mystery in faith and just trusting the text at a base level that it means what it says. And it and it and so that's kind of how I get there. Um but all that being said, I could be wrong. I also hold on to that loosely.
SPEAKER_00I kind of I kind of dabble with some of that theistic evolution type stuff in my freshman year of college, and kind of getting into uh did God use evolution or something like that to kind of create the world? And I encountered that same question of how would would wouldn't things have had to die? Wouldn't there have to be because there'd be way too many animals and other things in here? Um and then I was like, Well, maybe there was just one set that was created and they just stayed until the fall of man or something, and I kept trying to like prove it felt like I was proving God with science is what I was trying to do. Right. And it just felt weird. And then I was also like using God to justify my scientific thoughts or reasonings, and so then I was just like, Well, you know what? If uh if if if God is all powerful, couldn't he actually create the world in a week? It's like, well, of course he could. Absolutely he could. Well then who am I to say that he didn't?
SPEAKER_01Or the other side of it I brought up in the sermon too that a lot of people don't consider. I know this is a leap of faith, but it's it's a faith analysis nonetheless. That if God can do anything he wants, could he create a mature-looking earth? Yeah, he could. I mean, at the end of the day, that was one argument too that I think oftentimes don't get said. Yeah. Because when Adam, and we're gonna talk about Adam this weekend, but Adam is not made a little baby, he's made a mature man on day six, and he's created, and God breathes life into his nostrils and he's mature. And so a young earth creationist would also lean in heavily on faith. I'll admit it, it's heavy, but but it's faith-filled that could God create a mature-looking earth as he created a mature-looking Adam? I would say yes, because nothing's impossible for God. Um, so all that being said, do I know that for fact? No. But is it is it is it conceivable by faith? Yes, I really do believe that.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I mean God can do it, man. I think there's just there's so many different even niche versions of each there's not really just two views. There's not. Right? There's exactly right. There's stopgap creation and this idea of like not even just hey, what did God create the earth old, but did God create the earth kind of in segments? And it's not like yom doesn't mean an age, but it means like God did this, and then like God did this, and it it kind of builds on a mature earth over time. There's I mean, I was I was doing some reading before we got on here. I I told Jonathan and Stephen this before the podcast. Honestly, Genesis 1 is intimidating to me. Uh there's so much to answer there. There is uh if we if we take it primarily from an apologetics and kind of what is creation perspective. Uh and so I I think it it actually encourages my faith to know that there is uh a wise person, I'm blanking on who said this once said that that the Bible is is shallow enough for a child to like know the plan of salvation, right? But deep enough that theologians could could split hairs and scientists could split hairs for years and years and years and not even scratch the bottom. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, it's powerful. Um, so it's it's I'm just stoked about the Bible here, honestly.
SPEAKER_01I think well, and I think it's beautiful too that God gave us what we needed to know because on both sides, like it's not a faith crisis. That's why, like, for me, it doesn't bother me as much. Like, I know for some people they just live there because usually they're called engineers and they have to know you know exactly how things all happen. I'm not one. I'm God didn't wire my mind there. Call me out, Jonathan. But I know, I'm sorry for all the engineers, keep listening. But but at the end of the day, my point is this is not a faith crisis. Like, God gave us what we needed to know. And on either perspective, could have it been old or new or young, or rather, based on those interpretations. Yes. And to your point, Corbin, there's so much nuance in it. Uh, some people believe in a young humanity that I alluded to, some believe in an old humanity. Um, some belie people believe in theistic evolution that you're alluding to, Stephen, and and they're going to heaven too. Like there's people that that have these differing views. Now, I will say macroevolution and microevolution are two different things. That's difficult. Um, that that that I think should be duly noted. I didn't really talk about in the sermon, but but it's one thing to believe that a species adapted over time and by God's grace he made it adapt according to climate, you know, within a microevolution view. Right. It's another leap of faith to say a bunch of nothing became something and and we came from monkeys. You know, there's there's there's leaps there where you have to, I think, at some point reconcile some of those things. This kind of gets to next Sunday, I think, really, when it comes to creation of man. But are there is there room for that theistic evolution perspective? There's Christians that carry that. Um I don't see it, but but it's out there, and that's kind of the point.
SPEAKER_00And I would argue even that the micro part, I think it almost takes the theistic part out of the theistic evolution because you're taking God out of the situation to an extent. I mean, you may say that he created the cells and then they just kind of whatever, but I still think his hand would have had to been on the entire process if that was the direction.
SPEAKER_02I think a theistic evolution would. And I'm not a theistic evolutionist per se, but I would say they would probably say that God is definitely guiding that process along just to represent that that rightly. I I guess that that answers one of my questions is is can someone really full-on lean into macroevolution and still be considered like a Christian?
SPEAKER_01I think full on, no. Like if you're if you're leaning into naturalism is what I mean. If you are full on of God did not make me, I I just came out of luck and chance. Because if you're full on naturalism, it comes down to chance. I mean, that's really what it comes down to is that just things just form together, and I'm here because I was lucky to have two thumbs. You know, like it just it just kind of works out that way where there is a living God who who created. I think that has to be acknowledged. Now, did he use some of the evolutionary processes and when you're talking about microevolution and those aspects? Perhaps. Like those things, I think there's room, and that's kind of like.
SPEAKER_02I mean, there's lots of scientific evidence. It's it's we've had some really public cases where Christianity is maybe a bit too dogmatic about this, and it's taking some public throuncings.
SPEAKER_01But where where the line really, I think, falls on a lot of this comes down, and I'm talking about more about this weekend, the image of God. That I wasn't made in the image of a monkey and and I didn't come together by chance. Um, God thoughtfully, I was fearfully and wonderfully made. That's what the word of God says. So there has to be a line in there. And and I do believe there are theistic evolution people that do rightly draw the line to y'all's point earlier, where they do acknowledge a creator, they do believe that we are made in God's image and that God bestowed that image on us in a very intentional way. And it wasn't by chance. And that's kind of my point. If you're all in naturalism, it's just like, wow, it's good to be here. Like it just kind of all worked out, and golly, I'm a lucky man that I'm again more of a spectrum, maybe than a binary, either you're all in on this or not.
SPEAKER_02I think it's maybe a better way to use this.
SPEAKER_01That's what I'm getting at.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's I think that's for me, like, I just don't know where I land on so much of this stuff. Yeah. Because the more I read, I'm like, well, that's a good point. Well, that's a good point. Well, that's a good point. Um, even just looking at the Hebrew for like yam and like what a a day is in Hebrew, that it sounds really neat to say like this this can mean a season or an age, but like 400 out of the whatever times it's used in the Bible, it just means a day. Exactly. So it is, it's hard because language is used in different ways in different texts and different time periods.
SPEAKER_01More to the young earth can't. That's why I'm there. Morning and evening, my friend. Just read it for what it's saying.
SPEAKER_02Well, and on the other hand, though, I do think if if yam can mean season, I don't think it's not literal to then say that's a season. So it's hard to. No, I know. I'm just teasing.
SPEAKER_01There's there's room. There's no doubt.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I'm gonna be I'm gonna weasely be weaselly, and I'm not gonna let you pin me down quite yet. So I'm too young for that. Uh no, I'm just kidding. Uh but I guess the follow-up question that then is this is the burning question on everyone aged two to eighty-two right now. Are dinosaurs real?
SPEAKER_01Well, I saw a T-Rex skeleton in Chicago last summer, so I hope they're real. I don't really know what I was looking at otherwise. I mean, it was huge. It was right in front of me. So um, yes, I mean they they were real. I know this always gets into the question of where are dinosaurs in the Bible. Yeah. Obviously, there would be an answer we'd already know if that was that clear. And and so I I know a lot of people always point towards Job and there's the Leviathan and the Behemoth and those creatures of mystery.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if that's the intent behind the city. It could be a stretch.
SPEAKER_01I would tend to agree with you on that. Um, and and but but we we look for dinosaurs because we can't reconcile it in the story. Now, I think where the explanation is, usually there is an explanation based on your camp, if you're young or older earth. Older earth would say they were dead pre pre-day six, you know, before God created us. Well, day six, you have the living creatures, but before humanity was created, they were gone, you know, and and you could come to that conclusion there if you really did believe in death, pre-fall, pre-humanity, and there was a biological decay life cycle, etc. So that would explain it in an old earth, and there's room for that. The new earth, it's a little more tricky, I'll admit it, because it's not as crystal clear, because then it gets to the questions of, well, were there dinosaurs on the ark? And we don't really have the answer of that.
SPEAKER_02Is that who Noah sacrificed?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And and when were they created? I mean, a young earth creationist in general would say they were created there on day six with the living creatures, because that would be where they would fall in alignment with the beasts of the earth. Um, they would argue, kind of to the point I said earlier, that say they were there on the boat, they were around still and kicking then, that they would have died off quickly thereafter, and most of them would have all died already through the flood and all got compressed there in the geological layers, which messed up the carbon dating. And dinosaurs wouldn't have lived longer because when we got off the boat, God told Noah, now they're all gonna be scared of you and you're gonna kill them. And so of all the animals, and so they wouldn't have survived. If I was scared of anything coming off that boat, probably be a dinosaur. And also I want that thing in the world.
SPEAKER_02I think a way that you can even align again. I'm not sure where I fall with young, young and older creationism, but I do definitely think God doesn't say there's no way an animal went extinct from the time of the fall to no that's a lot of time, yeah. And also, like, death is on the scene. In case you haven't read Genesis 3, spoiler alert, we don't stay in the garden for that long. And so that's the hard part. Uh and it's there are so many smart people that have written about just all these different ideas of we weren't there, so we can't even really know, right? Like famously, again, I don't affirm everything he says, but DJ Bonhoeffer writes this book, Creation and Fall, where he says, we live in the middle of creation and fall uh and redemption. Yeah. And so we can't really know to begin with. And so there are there are a million perspectives under the sun. Yeah. Um, but I guess to kind of turn that then into something that's applicable to our audience, this might be an interesting thing for a lot of those listening, especially those that aren't super dogmatic or haven't maybe read a ton about this before. But why why does it matter how old the earth is? Right? Like, why is that important? Because I I would say it is important. I would say too. Uh, but why are questions like this important? What what theological significance do they have? Uh what practical significance do they have?
SPEAKER_01And it does have importance, so I don't want to negate that. Because I did say on Sunday, I kind of equated it as in that secondary, tertiary category of importance. There's primary, which the atonement. Like we need to kind of understand the original sins, the gospel. There's things that really matter that we really need to get our mind around and be in agreement of. But there's things like this that that there's a little bit of gray and it and it's still important, but it's not also as important. I think that's why God probably left a little bit of the gray on these things. Um, but as far as why is it important or how is it important? I think one, I kind of alluded to it earlier. It actually will say something about how you interpret scripture in in multiple ways, I think. Like I already showed my hand that I I lots of times, most of the time, I know there is poetry and other things in the book, but in general, I read the book in a very literal way. Um and so you see that actually in my interpretation of it. It's it's being demonstrated. Um, people that read things more figuratively uh naturally kind of lean there more on that, as well as in their eschatology. A lot of that stuff is you get into Revelation. A lot, a lot of the same people that are in kind of that old earth camp sometimes fall in the same camps I found in in Revelation when it comes to your eschatology, because they don't read everything as literal as perhaps I do as a in my faith. And so I think it it shapes how we interpret scripture, or at least it's it displays how we are interpreting scripture. Um, I think it also shapes our theology and our understanding of death and redemption.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and and because that that also gets to my point where I struggle with an old earth, is because the fall seems like the fall, and that seems like death, and it seems like this is where things go awry.
SPEAKER_02It's my biggest holdup for old earth Christians.
SPEAKER_01And honestly, it's me too, because I I can read science books too. Like I understand like the scientific evidence of aging of all those things, but the fall, the consequences of the fall, in my mind, it all seems so clean and tidy, just to put it right there. Of death was something that came right there by consequence of sin. Jesus, the last enemy he will destroy is death, 1 Corinthians 15, and all things will be made new. That makes a very clean story. Yeah, um, and so for me, it interprets how you view that, interprets how you view death, as well as the fall, consequently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's good. Does that change the narrative of scripture? That's a hard question. Yeah, right. But I I think it is important. And so I think all that to say, the way we read scripture and engage with scripture is scripture interprets scripture.
SPEAKER_01It does. Right.
SPEAKER_02And so even if you're like, man, what the heck does this have to do with my life? I I would encourage you to take these things seriously because secondary and tertiary as an issue do not mean, therefore, not important issues. Exactly right. And there's some very wise people that have said for a very long time, everyone is a theologian. Everyone is making calls about the Bible when they read the Bible. Even if your call is just, I'm gonna read it exactly as it says, literally, I don't know what symbolism is and themes are, ignore those things. Right? Like even then, yeah, you're making a theological statement. And so I do think it's important that we would understand rightly where we sit as we read, especially something like the book of Genesis.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think uh even how you view it, in some ways, shapes how you view God, or though maybe the attributes you you stress most or think about most in your own theology.
SPEAKER_02We do have uh there's a perfect view of God, and we all have, in our own ways, distortive views.
SPEAKER_01And we do, and and usually our view also is shaped by our view of ourselves and our world, where sometimes those things can misconstrue or shape the way we view God. Like for instance, I'll just say, and this is a blanket statement, if you're a young earth creationist, your creation account then stresses your understanding that God is powerful, because that's the only way it's happened is if God 24 hours, boom, like he just made it happen by his very word. If you're an old earth creationist, you could argue that then you are really stressing one, his patience, because it's taken a long time, his timelessness, his everlasting nature, his wisdom and knowledge to put together those processes and plans to develop for things to grow. And you and even as a guy right now, I could say, I believe all those things about God I just said. But your your interpretation sometimes reveals actually what you're most comfortable about with God, too. It's really your own, you know, maybe stressed points of his attributes in your own theology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's good. It's it does just say, so all that is say, take seriously, reader and listener, what you are what you are reading in the Bible, let it form and shape you, and know that you're you're coming to the Bible sometimes with with your own baggage, right? Your own your own way of doing things. And that's okay, because we can learn from other people that read the Bible differently than us, I think, which is so beautiful and so powerful. Um so obviously that's kind of the theological side of that. Practically, maybe. Uh, is there do you have any big practical notes for whether when you're reading the book of Genesis, when you're reading Genesis one through three, this should change how I live.
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of it, and I was trying to draw some of that even just out of those applications for the days. That's why I preached it kind of the way I did on last Sunday. Because I think without application and without answering the so what question, it's not really a good sermon. I think it's just at that point, it's just a uh it's a seminary lecture or a Bible lecture, which those have per purpose too. But I think if you're preaching, you have to apply you have to have application. I think that's what I was trying to get to in there because you see through the creation account that he's the one that gives life. You you see that he's the one who has all power. You see that his word is the catalyst for change. Like his word is the one that that transforms the creation, and then his word transforms us into new creation. So there's theology all saturated in it because God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. We believe in the immutability of God. He does not change who he was then is who he is now. And so what you'd see displayed in his nature and character are equally true in who he is today in his relationship with us. So I think I think that's a lot of it is is uh seeing God in the text and knowing that's the God we deal with today. And and that that really is.
SPEAKER_02Man, that's so and that's so true, right? Like I think we can make the God of creation very far away. Um and the reality is like through Jesus, through the the the fully man, fully God, person of Jesus, right? We can know God. Hebrew says intimately, right? That's so cool.
SPEAKER_00I like that uh just as speaking from like a fine arts major type person, very artsy. I really love just thinking of God as an artist. And there's actually a song called The Artist. Uh it's a um live church music song, but um man, that song is so beautiful. And it just goes through all the different points of creation and how he had his hand on it like a paintbrush. And um that's what I get out of looking at each of these days, is just literally thinking of each individual day and how I mean you talked about the birds and how many different species there are, and I mean you could even go all the way down to how many bones are in each different animal and how they work exactly perfectly, and like all the things, and and the fact that all that just works together. And when we look like because we were talking about old earth, young earth, when science tries to look at all this stuff and explain it, it's like, well, it has to be millions of years, it has to be all these things that come together, and it's like to me that just even more proves if he did do it all in actually a legitimate week, it's just even more impressive, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's man that again, we keep hitting this this horse, but I do think like I I I connect with stories, like I love stories, and so I I really lean into this idea of like God is a storyteller, like the Bible being a story, like I think there are different things that like God wires us towards. This is so off topic, but I think it's so true, right? Is that the the different ways we're wired help us connect with God and also like lean into our gifts, yeah, right? Like what a gift that is. But to jump back on topic, yeah, and to not be your super drum, this is real theological, practical, to get to a more kind of sciencey question. Yeah, uh how we we talked about the different days of creation. We talked about God creating the sun and the moon and the stars. Right, right? How could Jonathan how how can you have light without the sun, the moon, and the stars?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02How does that work?
SPEAKER_01Well, I believe God created light. You see it right there, that's day one. That's the first decree of creation. He created light. So light as a material substance, if you will, was then created. Now we you also have to understand theologically, God is light, we're told, in 1 John 1.5. And so as a reflection of his own glory, he created this, I believe, material substance, if you will, that was going to be the force of life. Without life, or without light, you can't have life. And so that's the first decree of creation. I also think what's happening in the days of creation is God is preparing a place, which I think there's also that same allegory, that same, that same picture. Jesus talks about how right now he's preparing a place for us in his father's house. What you see in the creation, that's the new creation. And the current in the creation, and when you go to Genesis, God is preparing a place for us too. That's what he was doing for Adam and Eve. And so when it says in Genesis 1, 1, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, I've always viewed that. And I see that as God is in that first moment, he makes out of nothing something. And that something is a foundation, if you will. If I'm building a house, I'll lay some some concrete and put up some uh boards, but it is not habitable. It is, it is not ready. And that's why it also says in the text, it was void and without form. And then the first thing he says to start making it habitable is let there be light. Turn the lights on. And so the lights come on. Now, then from that, there has to be some form of a lamp, if you will, for that light to be useful for his people. And so the sun and the moon and the stars are essential for us to live and exist and for the earth to thrive and for things to grow and and to keep the temperature at a habitable place. And so I always view that of the day four addition there is it's God putting that light into a lamp that will be useful for his people in this house. But then you also have to tie it to the point that you get to the end of the book, which you talked about, the story. The whole Bible's one story. It really is. And it's from one garden to the next, is the way a lot of people describe it because in Revelation 22, there's a new garden, and we're also told there's no sun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so the garden tomb, by the way. Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly right. But in Revelation, there's no sun because God is with us and He is our light. He Himself and the radiance of His glory will actually be what is lighting up our life.
SPEAKER_02Sky's also darkened with Jesus. There's a lot of things. There's some wild stuff in the new heavens and new earth. That's crazy. Um that's so good. Yeah, I think that's that's such a I think that's a question I've struggled with a lot, honestly. And that's that's a very good answer. Uh just this idea of like, man, what does it mean to know that God has designed and even further, I guess, aims for the things he's already created and further intention. Um, and and how much like he treasures us as his possession that he's shaping the earth for that. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, similar-ish question. We talked about birds and fish to end our sermon. Yeah. Um why do birds and fish get their own day? I don't get it, man. I'm gonna be honest. I I don't have a huge list. I'm pretty content with like God is sovereign and I am a fool and it's okay. But I I really just don't get it, man. That doesn't mean it's bad, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but why do birds and fish get their own day compared to just like all the animals at once? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean, one, I'll just say however I answer this will be 100% conjecture. Just be me speculating because God doesn't say why. Yeah. The short answer is it's because that's what God did. And I don't he doesn't really need to be. That's a good enough answer, mate. He doesn't need my defense. But but I will but I will say, you know, of why, if I were just gonna speculate, um, and this is very much speculative. If you go in the sequence there, if you have the the birds, the fish, and then you're gonna have the livestock, all the all the beasts of the land that will come on day six. You also look at how many of those. Like if you think about it, I mentioned this. I mean, there's what, what I say, that I think 30,000 fish species, like 10,000 bird species. He's also kind of working from the canvases as an artist to I see that he's he's filling the canvases that he's laying out. Because that first canvas you have, he separates the water from the water, he's given us the sky, he populates it with the birds, and he separates the water from the land, receding and creating separation where there will be earth and there will be uh and there will be uh the waters. And then what does he do? He fills those waters and then he starts filling the land that's now been revealed and separated. So it also seems like there is kind of a natural order that he is going to, which would also fall in alignment with his character because God is a God of order. So I I do see order in the sequencing, but I don't know why they get their own day. I mean, ask the federal government, they give special days for everybody. Maybe we can get a day for somebody else or for some other part of the creation, but but they they got their own day. I don't know. Birds aren't real.
SPEAKER_02I was like, maybe I shouldn't reference that. It's even if birds are around anymore, they're not the robots. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00It's actually because he wants us to be fishers of men, right?
SPEAKER_02There you go. Hey, there is. God does say be fruitful and multiply to the fishes and the birds. He does. You know, it's no humans on the scene there, and he still has that attention. There's a whole podcast on that, I'm sure, that we could do some research about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that is interesting because Jesus does talk about the birds and the fish just coming off of my mind. Because he talks about, like you said, we're gonna be fishers of men. He points to the birds there in Matthew 6 and uses them as his illustration of how God cares for us. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe birds and fish just have a flower place.
SPEAKER_02Noah, right? Those are the animals that aren't storic. There's layers to this. Yeah, there are probably those. There's lots of conjecture in this. I'm so sorry. I hope none of us ever write a book on this because it's a whole bunch of baloney things.
SPEAKER_01But it does make an interesting conversation. It is.
SPEAKER_02And it's uh things that we should think about when we talk about reading the Bible closely, right? There's there's a lot here in Genesis 1. Yeah. Uh well, I want to wrap us up with this question. This is kind of a big question, but I think it's an important one. And you you alluded to it some in your sermon, and you alluded to it even a little bit recently, right? But we've talked a little bit about these connections between Genesis and Revelation, between the creation and the ultimate redemption that we're we're hoping in. What are what's if there's a couple through lines that you could highlight there, you think are the really important pieces there? Because I think it's an important part of reading the Bible, like we said, as a story, as a whole, a canonical book that God has designed. Not just it's yes, we have individual authors that are inspired by the Holy Spirit, but also the Holy Spirit's compiled this book together for us today as we receive it, right? So why that, or I guess what are the connections, would you say, between Genesis and Revelation?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think at the core of it, you see at the beginning of the end, God is with his people. Yeah. I think that's that's where the at the core of everything it is, is God creates people to be with him, he's walking with them in the garden. Sin and the devil ruin all that, and they're kicked out of the garden. Then everything else from Genesis 3 forward is God getting them back to a garden and him restoring his fellowship the way it was meant to be, but even in a superior way, because now his glory has been revealed through his redemptive plan, and there's a new creation, new heavens and the new earth. Because a lot of people always say it's like one Eden to the next. Yeah. The new heavens, but the new heavens and the new earth are a better Eden. That's what I think sometimes gets missed in that is it's it's the upgraded Eden. It's a better Eden.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's got God creates what's good, and it's part of what's in. Like there's a reason God's calling the stuff good and not sinful when He's creating it. But I do love, right? Like he talks about humanity being very good. Some of that is, I think, of what it means to be made in the image of God is that we have the capacity to create. Exactly. And we'll talk about that. I'm jumping ahead. Oh, you're next we're gonna do that.
SPEAKER_01You're exactly right.
SPEAKER_02But uh I love, oh gosh, um, I can't remember the guy that wrote about it, but he talks about the new Eden, like this garden city, where like all the good things of Eden and all the good things of like like New York City and Austin, Texas, and Dallas, you know, wherever you are, maybe there's not a lot of good things in Dallas. I'm just kidding, I'm from there and I love Dallas. I actually really do. Uh the bad things in Houston. I hate Houston. Sorry to Houston fan. Here we go. Um I'm a Rockets fan, though, which is crazy. On everything right now. I know, I'm all over the place. But but there is this piece of like human creation that is good and redeemed and justified, actually has a place in God's like utopia for all of mankind that knows him and is in relationship with him.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. Well, and and I think what you have to see in the scriptures of the story is that God always wants to tabernacle with his people, he wants to be with his people. And he's tabernacling there, if you put that in a verb form, there in Genesis. Then he kicks them out. Then what does he do? He sets up a plan to tabernacle with them in the tent, and then ultimately in the temple. And then through God Himself, through the Son, who when the Word becomes flesh and he's tabernacling with us, and then he ascends, and now the Spirit tabernacles with us, he's with us uh in spirit, and then Jesus will return and restore that fellowship where we will be perfected like him, and God will be tabernacling with us for all of eternity future in the new heavens and new earth. And you see some of those reoccurring images. I don't know how much we want to talk about any of this, but you see in Genesis that God's with his people, Revelation, God's with his people. But in Genesis, you also see I alluded to it of water that you see, you see water that's being created, and that water gives life, and then you see a river of life there in Revelation. You also see a tree, you see a tree of life there in in uh Genesis, the tree of life returns. You see it again in Revelation 22. And so there's these parallels there that I think are worth noting that God wants to give us life. Yeah, and and and part of that, and not part of that, life comes through relationship with Him, but then with relationship with Him comes joy and the bliss of all of these things that are good.
SPEAKER_02And that's that's the point. Satisfaction from the water of water, right? Yes. I mean, there's just all these layers. Genesis is such a deep. It is such a good book. And I just want to encourage everyone listening. Uh, the reason I think we we're kind of geeking out on this is because I hope if you walk away with anything today, like here, like when you're reading Genesis, read it closely because there's a lot here. And God has formed and shaped this book to edify you, to make you love him more and make you love his son more. Right? Like, even if you just look at the days of creation and they they line up with the I am statements from Jesus a lot of the times to talk about like I am I am the water of life, I'm the true vine, right? I'm all these things, I'm the way, the truth and the life, right? Uh, you know, there's all these different, yeah, just layers on layers, and then it translates to Genesis. We talk about this new Eden tree of life, water of life. Um, so man, my my my hope and my prayer is as as you hear this that you just be encouraged to read well and to let the spirits like speak as you read the book of Genesis and as we gather around it together in the service. Well, um Jonathan, thank you so much for all the amazing opinions you've had and all the thoughts. Keywords, opinions. I'm probably the one like we'll see. Uh but man, I'm I'm just so thankful uh to be here for the first time and to have such an awesome conversation that we've had. Uh but man, I listeners, I I hope that you will continue to tune in and join us for the rest of the Genesis series. That you'll continue to engage in in our conversation that we're having uh with with the Q ⁇ A and stuff that you can you can engage with on Instagram, uh on our website, um, and kind of wherever we are plugging out with QR codes on screen. But we encourage you guys to ask more questions. We answered a few of those today. We didn't talk about it directly, but all these questions really had things to do with the questions we had received. So keep plugging in there. Um friends, thank you guys for joining me today, and I hope you'll tune in next time to the Citizen ATX podcast.