Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: In His Image
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We know that we are made in "His image", but what does that really mean? Is it a physical thing, a spiritual thing, or something else entirely? Being that we are all create by God in the same way, how are we to interact with other "image bearers"? Join Corbin, Jonathan, and Stephen as we discuss what it means to be made in the Image of God.
Well, hello, howdy, and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Corbin Smith, and we are back in episode four of our Building on Foundations series, going through the book of Genesis. With me is Pastor Jonathan Spencer. Howdy Corbin. And Stephen Vaughn, my good friend.
SPEAKER_03How's it going?
SPEAKER_01Good, man. How are you guys?
SPEAKER_00Oh, fired up.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to think of current events going on, anything crazy, having no snowstorms or anything. No, no. Super Bowls looking ahead. This is giving a timestamp for when you guys know this was filmed. It's true.
SPEAKER_00But no one can no one cares about this year's Super Bowl anyway. Let's just be doing it.
SPEAKER_01I want to see which pagans sitting on the state.
SPEAKER_00It's really just America against the Patriots. That's the way I do it.
SPEAKER_01Hey, say I'm talking about a comeback story. There's a sermon in there. I think so. We're taking a few bad ears. But I tell you what, God likes to take junk and make something out of it. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Turn that mess into a mess. That's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yes and amen. Well, hey, we were we were in Genesis 1, 24 through 31 31 last week, and it was awesome. I was really stoked just to be leaning into what really my favorite part, I think, of Genesis 1 is just what God has to talk about when He's talking about creating man and dominion and all these commands and things that kind of come as a real change of pace in Genesis 1. But we have some questions about this. But before we get to that, I do I do want you to summarize for us what does it mean to be made in the image of God?
SPEAKER_00So we talked about how man was different than the rest of creation. One, when all the other things were created, we're told it was good, but when God made man, it was very good. And we're told male and female, he created them in his image. So man, men and women, we bear the image of God. And I talked about in the sermon how there's a lot of ways you can define that. I tried to use a simple definition, right or wrong. It came from crudom. It was uh the fact that man, for man to be in the image of God means that he is like God and represents God, which I think was just a simple, succinct way to put it. Now, then from there it gets into the whole, well, how does he represent him and how is he like him? Which is the complicated part. Um, there's a lot of ways you could talk about how he's like him, but the idea being that we reflect him, that we're we're like him. We talked about that idea of an image that you can see to it in and how do you see God in people? Uh I talked about uh really five categories, but there are more than this, which we can talk about more if you want. But I talked about that idea of dominion, uh rulership, that man, that's what we do on this earth. We have this moral ability that we do think about and are fixated on what's right and wrong. Uh, we have mental acuity, we're able to do things that the rest of creation cannot do. Uh, we have relationships and committed relationships and sacrifice and love and those things that flow through us as reflectors of God. And then uh that spiritual nature, and that was really the biggest thing that I think separates us and differentiates us is that we we are eternal creatures. That that was something I tried to drive home in the sermon is that because we came from an eternal God and we're made in his image, he created us as eternal beings and that we will exist forever. And I think that gets lost a lot in the image of God because I think image of God talk a lot of it's just like, well, what do we do then? You know, it's all like action-based of what are the things, but we'll get there. But yeah, but but more of it's about like who we are. It's the being state. You know, we are we are spiritual creatures. We are made by God who is spirit, and we are spiritual creatures. That's what we are.
SPEAKER_01Well, and there's there's a lot of follow-up questions you can have there. I didn't even write this one down, but I am just curious, uh, then does that mean do dogs go to heaven?
SPEAKER_00That's always a good question. I'm gonna break my wife's heart right now. Yeah, I don't think so. Now I don't think they go to hell, but but I also I I don't know. Now I will say theologically, some people split hairs on this. When the new heavens and new earth are brought up, when you see the prophets speak of it, there are animals there. And so there will be animals. I believe that to be concrete true. Just maybe not mine. I hope my animal's there. Um, but the good news, it's kind of the same argument as like marriage, because a lot of people are talking about like, oh, how can heaven be great if there's not marriage? Or it's the same point of how can heaven be great if my little puppy's not there? It's like, well, I trust God that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor heart of man imagined what God has prepared for us.
SPEAKER_01That's a whole other conversation to talk about marriage and the eternity. I know. There's some really interesting stuff that's coming out now that people are understanding that passage differently, but that's another conversation for another time, probably. Because all these things are shadows of the greater reality.
SPEAKER_00And to that point, that what we love, there's gonna be even more lovely things in store. And I think that's what we have to do.
SPEAKER_01Like it's a different category. That's I think that's God's heart, and it is not you won't see your spouse, you won't see your dog. It's that, hey, like you will be in perfected creation, you'll be doing things like working, you're gonna be busy, right? You're gonna have things to do. Uh, you've got a garden to keep, if you will. Uh well, hey, I guess on the other side or extreme of that question, then, what then makes us different from angels? Because angels don't bear the image of God the same way we do, at least.
SPEAKER_00Um Well, I pulled up uh a verse, David actually reflects on this in Psalm 8, and I thought maybe this would frame the conversation because David says, What is man that you're mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? And then he says in verse 5, Yet you made him a little lower than the heavenly beings, angels, and you crowned him with glory and honor. So then what does that mean? And you know, what makes us different? Angels are created spiritual beings, they are spiritual beings. I told you earlier, we are spiritual people, we're made in the image of God, we're human beings. Angels are spiritual beings made by God for the purpose really to minister to him and for him. Um, we are made by him to be in relationship with him and walk according to his purposes, to bring glory back to him. So there's a relation there, but it's not the same in that we are given these physical bodies. Uh we are given uh this lifespan on this earth with a purpose to walk in relationship with him and reflect his glory. Now, today you look at at um angels, they have this incredible power. That's why David talks about that. You made them a little bit lower than the angels. Uh, they have a spiritual power. That's why also in the book of Colossians, Paul has to actually talk about this that people are worshiping angels in the first century because they looked at them as these godlike, you know, spirits and creatures that kind of feel like because they do have power above power we have right now in our human state. But this gets to the purpose of angels versus the purpose of man. God has given us this purpose to be in relationship with him and also co-reign with him through Christ. And so Hebrews talks about how in chapter two Christ is better than the angels, and because we are in Christ, we 1 Corinthians 6 says that one day we'll judge the angels and we will reign. Exactly, and we will reign with Christ. So there's this kind of both hand state where right now do they have power, they have special power we don't have, yes. But one day we'll be crowned with a glory that's not even our own.
SPEAKER_01We have authority, right? Because we bear God's authority, yes. And God's authority is what is in charge of angels, right, and directs angels. Now that has some some interesting questions that maybe are are are better fit for our episode on the fall about, well, then what what is the difference between an angel and my is like free will, right? What is the difference? And that's that's maybe a very deep theological discussion to have. Uh, but I I do I I get questions about this as a youth pastor all the time about what even really is an angel, you know, and we we could do a whole a case study on this, but I I think a good rule of thumb is to understand that that while like on this earth, right, like we do not have the physical power that is above angels because we are human, we are flesh, right? When we are raised, like we have the authority of like the God of the universe, right? And we we represent really like his spiritual authority if we are in relationship with him, we're obeying him and living in his face. Now, again, if we're in rebellion, right, we are representing our father, the devil, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, but I think you see the heart of God in the two different creations because with us as image bears of him, you see that he created us in such a unique way where he wanted to share all that he has with us, like that idea that he wants to crown us with the glory of Christ ultimately, so that then we would co-reign with Christ and we're given a power and authority that honestly is not our own. Like it's given by him and for him and through him.
SPEAKER_01It's adoption.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That's what it is. It's like we have nothing to offer, and that's why David says, What is man that you're mindful of him? David kind of, I think, in his own limited sense is saying, Who am I? Why would you have this plan for my life and for humanity's life when you look at angels? They're a little more impressive than us right now. What what's what's your whole fascination with me? And that's where it's all grace. And and God, God made us in his image as an act of grace, and now we're gonna co-reign with Christ as an act of grace.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I hear I hear these conversations a lot in the worship community too. Um, like with the there was the whole 20 2000s, 2010s phase where we were all in the I God loves me, I love God kind of worship phase. And there's this popular song that came out during that time of called How He Loves, David Crowder's song. We all know it.
SPEAKER_00Big sloppy kiss, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. Unforeseen kiss. That was my boyfriend. I remember that line. I had a a conversation with actually my pastor's son, who was older than me at the time when I was like in high school, um, and he was like super hardcore, like Calvinist and stuff, but he was like, uh, we can't sing that song how he loves because we're not valuable enough for that God would love us. He didn't love us because we're valuable, he loves us because uh we don't deserve it, but he chooses to love us or whatever. And I'm like, I mean, there's there's a lot. Like, I just choose to love there's some stuff in there, right? But it's like that doesn't mean we can't like write a song about God's love.
SPEAKER_00But I also would push back against the fact that we don't have value. Yeah, because that's the whole point. We do have value. And it's not and it's and it's value that God has given us, you know, from him. Because God is valuable, we are valuable, uh, because God is has all infinite value, and he then made us to reflect his image, which makes us valuable.
SPEAKER_01Well, that actually ties in perfectly to my next question. Uh, does does us bearing the image of God have maybe some practical implications about how we should think about ourselves uh and maybe also how we should think about each other, right? Other humans in general, uh, if we bear the image of God. If we really do, it's really true, which I believe it is.
SPEAKER_00I think it uh it should give us a sense of security, I guess was where I'd maybe start. And this is just for us, we maybe we'll get to the other people next. But I think the most confident people on planet Earth are the ones who know who they are in God's eyes. Yeah. They are um because they're free. That's why Paul's able to say things as for me, to live as Christ and to die as gain. He says, I'm I'm with him. I I don't care. Like, you know, what can you do against me? And that's why he says, if God's for me, who can be against me? Those that really know uh themselves and see themselves in the way that God sees them, they are freed. I mean, they're just freed at the end of the day from so much uh self-scrutiny and fear uh and confusion because their their security is immovable. It's God. And and if you can see yourself the way that God sees you, it it just it frees you, it liberates you. And that's where most people I think get it backwards outside of the faith because they think God restricts, and they think if you come to God, you're gonna be constrained and your life's gonna be miserable and this and that. No, if you come to God, you will be the most free, secure individual on planet earth. And and because you're gonna now be freed from all this junk.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you don't need it. I love to tell our students this all the time. I say, like, Jesus did not die to make you a good little boy or a good little girl, right? Like Jesus did not die to bite to modify your behavior. Yeah. He died to like bring you into a relationship because God says like there are things about you that he loves and adores, and from the beginning of time, he wanted a relationship with you specifically, right? And I think like that's such a good thought about this idea of like the image of God prevents us from being lied to in in two directions. One by being lied to by shame, right? Feeling like I'm distracting the cycle where I just have to earn my way to God, right? Because we'd say, no, like God says this is true about me, he now sees the righteousness of Jesus in me as I'm washed by his blood, right? But on the other hand, it helps us see ourselves rightly in God, that we we are not God, we bear God's image, right? But we can go awry and say, therefore, I want to be like God in ways that I shouldn't be like God. We get Adam and Eve, we get the garden, we get the fall. And I think that's both of those are so powerful and such such good testimonies to the and and I love what you said that that the most secure people that that you know are people that understand who they are in Jesus. Like I think it's so difficult to be deceived by like the lies of of the need for approval of man and things like that. If you understand that, hey, like the wisdom of the world is foolishness. Yeah, it is folly to the cross, right? That's like how secure, not just like, oh, like I can endure all things is Paul and is by extension, like should Christians be, but actually we're so secure that that what the world says is like brilliance, is foolishness to us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, if you're insecure, insecure people are always performing. That's what they do. Um, secure people are being, they're just being, and uh, and they're they're free, they're liberated. But insecure people are always performing for man's approval. You're trying to do something to make somebody like you, to impress them, to earn this or that. And if you don't know the Lord, that's inevitably where you'll end up. You'll end up in that pathway of insecurity. It manifests in different ways. Sometimes it's through work that now I'm gonna put all my my worth in this because I want people to see me this way, because you don't see yourself in the image of God. You want to be in the image of the businessman or the image of the lawyer. For some, it can be literally just parent or or marriage life. Like I'm insecure until I'm called a husband or a wife, and then I'm gonna feel important.
SPEAKER_01And then I'm gonna be like, just get this next stage, right? This next, this next promotion, right? Yes. We can just figure things out with my kids, yes, then I'll be worthy.
SPEAKER_00Yes, right? And that's a lie. And and that insecurity plays on, like the kids part. I'll use that one as this one might sting. I'm not trying to be offensive, but like for sometimes as parents, because we then put our identity in our kids. Like I'm I'm dad. That's my number one identity. That's what some people would think. Well, if that's the case, well, eventually those kids move off, and then you're in an identity crisis. I no longer have security because I don't have kids there, and what happens? Those dads are then, and mothers are then challenging their kids to have kids, so then they can do the dad and mom thing all over again because it's the same cycle. It's like my whole this is the only role I know is to do this. It's the same thing why there's an identity crisis when a lot of men retire because they identified themselves, their security was found in their title, position, performance, etc. Yeah. And and that's kind of my point is God's trying to free us from all that nonsense. That's the whole point. Like those things are all good things we're made to do, but they're not meant to define us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and if you don't know who you are, then you're gonna get lost in that and you will be insecure.
SPEAKER_01And and I'll even say this, like here, this listeners, just because you know who you are in Jesus does not mean you can't fall into these things. Exactly. That's among spoiler, the most common probably sin in pastoral ministry is the sense of performative, like I have to earn this, I have to be good enough. And and and that's you know, we think of like the professional Christians, right? That's certainly true of uh of anyone in the Christian life, is that we can get into this lie where we say, like, I know these things are true about God, and I know what God's designs are for me. And so therefore I have to achieve these things, and I have to do these things kind of as a checklist, right? Or I'm not doing well spiritually, and we're we're placing the work of sanctification and obedience, things we talked about even this last week, right, on ourselves instead of on God. That's a that's a dangerous place to be. Um Well, I I think that's a pretty good base covering on uh on the image of God uh in terms of what we think about ourselves. But then how should we think about other people? Right? Should the way I treat someone else, Christian or not, be shaped by the fact that they bear the image of God?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it has to be. And it and it and it challenges you, all of us, Christians especially, um, because it means that everybody's valuable, which is an uncomfortable thing we don't want to hear. Yeah, because your enemies are valuable. Yeah, exactly. When Jesus says the same thing to pray for your enemies and and love them, uh th those things aren't normal. Um but if you really do buy into the theology of of the image of God, then you realize, well, those people matter too, and they matter to God. Doesn't mean they're justified in whatever they're doing or whatever behavior or ideology they follow, but they were created also by God and for God. And so it it makes makes every single person on planet earth have intrinsic value to their life, which I will also say that when it gets in more to the political side, it's impossible to keep those kind of uh value systems in place in a country without a recognition of God. Because if you don't recognize God, then how can you really come to that same point that all people have value? Because then it they wouldn't without God. We're just all here because some cells came together and this is just what happened and this is life. But if you do believe in God, which we do, it gives now a new challenge to us, and that's really I believe where a lot of things, even in our own country, whether people want to admit it or not, it came from Christian value systems because because it was formulated by that that we're made by God. So consequently, every person does have intrinsic value. Um so on the practical side, it means your neighbor that you hate, or your co-worker you can't stand, or that person from that other religion that you think is threatening, or that immigrant that's coming across illegally. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um, all these people the ice agent, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, like or the ice agent who's who's doing his job. Yeah, they all matter to God. Like they all have value and it it challenges you.
SPEAKER_01And that's I think the hardest thing is we live in a c culture, in a society, where our our opponents, quote unquote, are the people that believe or think differently in this are people to be defeated. They're people to be bested. Uh they're not even people to be convinced anymore. That's we're past that in our society. We the two Americas theory is alive and well, right? This idea that people that believe differently than me are distorted in my brain and they could never come to my side, and so I just have to win. And that's like, man, like that is antithetical to the gospel. Yeah, right. That is that is a lie of Satan that's like poisoning even the church, right? It's poisoning how we engage online, it's poisoning how we think about other people when we see them in the street, right? So when I see someone in a coffee shop that I think looks a little liberal, I'm like, mmm, like, and that's a hard check for me. Yeah, right. Man, if I see someone that I think is a little too gun-toed and republic and that that sets something off of me, then hey, there's something wrong with my way of viewing people that's centered on my preferences, what I think is right, what is right in my own sight, right? And not, hey, what does God say about people? Uh and and them as people to be loved, prayed for, right? Uh witness to. That's a challenge, I think, uh, in a in a world in which, like I said, it's just so easy to view people as just enemies to be vanquished.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'll I'll illustrate to that same point. I remember it was a few years ago in Austin. I needed to go to a coffee house and I needed to go s kill a few hours while I was out, do some studying or something, was too far to drive home. And I came across a coffee house, and it was one I'd heard of, I won't say the name, but but it was it was one I heard of that had good coffee. I pull up to it, huge rainbow flag, you know, out from the window. And then so I immediately noticed some ideological things there probably don't align with my traditional Christian worldview. Sure. And then I walk inside, I would presume, and it wasn't I was safe to assume. And then and then I walked inside. At first I was like, uh, but then I was like, I'll go in. And I just kind of went in. And then I saw two of the baristas were transsexuals, they were uh clearly trans uh folks that were there. And all these things, just in my conservative Christian perspective, make me really uncomfortable if I'm just being honest. Like, you know, like that's that's I know God made us male and female. I know these people uh you know are missing that truth. And I was tempted just to like walk away, like nah, I'll go somewhere else. Like I don't want to be around this. And God really tugged my own heart in that moment of sit your butt down and pray for them. Like just sit down and pray for them. Smile, tip them well, and pray for them. And yes, and and I think, and I don't use that one story to make me a hero because I've done it stupidly other ways, but I think it's such a practical example of like we all have daily decisions like this where we lean in where you're seeing somebody that's challenging you because it's not doesn't formulate and fall clean into your Christian worldview. It's like that's okay in the sense of you can still value them and be kind to them, and you should Jesus models that all Yes, we're just bad, we're just bad at it, including pastors. That's the hard part.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a gut check for us, right? And it's here hear this listener too, and this is something that I I've I've made a rule for myself in is that I just don't even try to engage at all online anymore because I think the easiest place is actually not even in person to dehumanize people. It's over, it's over a screen, right? It's from the comfort of I can I can view this person on CNN or on libs on TikTok or on this and that, and you know, I can see the worst version of a person possible, and I can just like honestly, I can I can get stored up in my heart and built in my heart to hate and angry. And that's not yeah, it's just so antithetical, I think, to to to what we talk about with the image of God. But on the other hand, then it gives us this opportunity if we do this well, we value people in the way that God says we're supposed to value them, we pray and intercede for them, right? God says he's going to use us right to like make the things that we thought would always be dark, turn to light, right? And that is like, where do we really believe God is strong enough to overcome those crazy strongholds? Yeah. And that's I think part of it too, is one, do we trust that they bear the image of God? But two, do we trust that we bear the image of God? And do we trust that we bear the Great Commission, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And do you really want to see God bring that stronghold out? Because there's a lot of there's a lot of Jonah in it. That's right, man.
SPEAKER_01We went to Jonah as students, man, and it's such a like, am I it it's not do I believe God can save my enemies, but am I willing to actually want that?
SPEAKER_00And do I really want it? Because I think we all would say yes intellectually. Of course. Because in our doctrine we know we have to, but but emotionally in our hearts, do you really want that? Like, do you really burden for those people that you really want them to go to heaven?
SPEAKER_01And I think oftentimes, like, man, my own answer is often no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't say that to preach at people and be like, so you guys just gotta do this, but like, man, what does it look like for us to check ourselves regularly and ask ourselves regularly in that? And I think a big movement for me. And that has been, hey, like, is my prayer life centered on other people?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is my prayer life just centered on what I want and what's good for my wife? Maybe if I kids, what's good for my kids or my parents or whatever? Yeah. Right? But it's hey, like, am I being mindful? Am I at least praying for one other person? Right? That's not my immediate family. That's a good, I think, baseline to start seeing God really move in that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I I'll throw myself under the bus a little bit here. But you mentioned the social media thing. You guys probably remember COVID when the whole big thing was locked down and everyone's at each other's throats, and a lot of this was kind of really exploding. Yeah. I so I went to college and I did a my second major was in theater. Yeah. And so I met all these people in the theater community and did all kinds of different things with them and was friends with them and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, COVID happens, and I'm like, wow, I'm like opposite of all of them. And it's like this this separation of time with a person and face-to-face interaction is suddenly exploded our differences so far above our similarities and the things we found in common. And it really like I didn't handle it well in the first hand because I was like, all these people are against me now, and I like fighting them and going all over social media and stuff, get really defensive. But then I started realizing these were like my friends, like not even not even a few months ago, these were my friends, and all of a sudden now we're just at each other's throats. And it sort of I started like my heart started to break for it, honestly, and I started to just pray. Yeah, and I was like, God, just don't let me be this guy that just destroys everything all the time just because of my own pride. Yeah, even though I think I'm on the truth, and I know I'm on the truth in a lot of things. It's like I can't let that just destroy relationships.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think there's a difference between loving the truth and loving being right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that is that's where I I personally will fall into a lot, is you know, even with like my wife, right? When we disagree on something, like, I know I'm right. It's like, am I more in love with like winning the argument or am I more in love with like, hey, like this is what's good and God honoring, and so let's walk towards it.
SPEAKER_00I agree.
SPEAKER_01And that's uh maybe that's a pretty practical example, but I think in general, like with all people, right? I think that's that that that's a heart check to be.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think the other thing I'd add to that too, Corbin, is I think there's a difference between uh loving the truth and and uh living out that truth, those are two different things too. Uh because that's mainly what Jesus rebukes all throughout the gospel ministry, is people knew the truth, the people he's rebuking, they just weren't living it out. And and I think it's in Titus chapter two, I don't have it in front of me, but but I believe it's I know it's in Titus. Paul tells Titus uh it talks about adorning yourself with good doctrine. And the idea being that you wear your doctrine, like it's it's seen there. So this image of God, like that's part of our doctrinal understanding that we're all image bearers, but you wear that doctrine by the way you treat one another, by the way you really uh connect with people and love them and serve them, even the ones that to y'all's point really we have nothing in common with.
SPEAKER_01Just to really drive that home, that Titus verse is Paul talking to slaves. Yeah, exactly right. There you go. You pulled it up. This is how you should treat your masters. Yes, and adorn yourself with doctrine. So all slaves are supposed to act this way and adorn this with doctrine, and that they would be a witness, right? Not because slavery is good, right, but because in the face of evil things, yeah, things that aren't true, right, we still have to clothe ourselves with good doctrine if we're gonna move in a way that honors God. Yep. That's good. Well, to keep moving, uh the first thing that God says to man in this passage, uh, we often we assume it's a command. It's actually a blessing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh what what do you think is important about that? Why does God speak a blessing before anything else?
SPEAKER_00Well, it shows he's for him. I think that's a big idea, because with a blessing comes favor, and so he's he's uh he's uh giving his favor to his to the pinnacle of his creation, which is mankind to man, and he's blessing man. And I think that's that's I think just a foundational truth that God wants to bless us, like we are created in love, uh and and he created us with that loving purpose for each of our lives. Like he's not against us, and he's proven that now we know in the fullest sense, you know, through God's redemptive plan through Christ Jesus. Like he's in the interest in the in the um in the mission of blessing us. And you see it there with creation, and then when uh Adam and Eve fail, you go from blessing to a curse, which the curse we'll get to there in in Genesis three. But then even after the curse is given and justifiably so, God's in the business of restoring the blessing. Like that's his whole point. He's like, I want to bless my people.
SPEAKER_01God's justice is redemptive. It's clo-like even the curse is cloaking the proto-evangelion, right? This idea that like one day the son of man will like crush the head of the snake. Uh that's skipping ahead a little bit. Uh if there's a passage in Genesis that should get you amped, though, that's it. It is. I love that passage. It is well, uh that's I think that's just so important to I think for us to hold on to in the midst of all this. Is we're gonna talk a lot about commands and obedience and those things, and these are really important, but I think this begins first with this understanding that like God blessed first, and that's how we can be fruitful and multiply. That's how we can take dominion. If we're taking dominion and being fruitful and multiplying to honor ourselves and on our own authority and our own power, I think we've missed something important.
SPEAKER_00And I think the it's good for us to re to connect that point, Corbin, to the blessing comes through obedience to his word. That because he is for us and he knows better than us, follow what he says. And this is where it obviously goes awry for our first parents that he says, I'm I'm gonna bless you. Here's what I need you to do. And then they don't, but it's the same thing for us, like God wants to bless you, so listen to him when he's when he speaks. You can trust him at his word.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good. Well, speaking of that first command in the whole Bible, uh, God tells us people says, Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. It's an important command. I think it's worth unpacking. So, so what is it first? Maybe what does it mean to be fruitful and multiply? Like, what is God's design in that? Why is that the first command? Not not it's not take dominion first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? It's be fruitful and multiply.
SPEAKER_00There's some layers we could go to there in depth if we wanted to, but the most basic level, it's you're get married, have babies. Like fill the earth. I mean, that is that is the most basic level.
SPEAKER_01It's not designed for marriage. Yeah, man and woman is it's there's child, children that we've got.
SPEAKER_00It's the institution of the home. And we'll get into that in Genesis 2, more so, when you get to kind of see that micro look at that of really what's going on there. But that is the the creation order. God designed us for man and woman to come together, to leave and cleave and to have children, which is why in the church especially we celebrate children. We celebrate that. We see that as a blessing from God, but also in many ways, it's part of our creation order design. We're called to be fruitful and multiply. And of course, with Adam and Eve, there was a lot of multiplying that had to happen. They are literally the first two human beings. Uh, so they're being commanded to fill the earth. But we see that in our Christian theology as an ongoing command that the home is a good thing. The institution of the home was God's idea. And the way that his vision for mankind is to duplicate ourselves, really, as part of that discipleship model, is the same point of not just procreate, but then also procreate disciples, train them up and teach them the ways. And that is God's desire is to fill the earth with people that would follow him. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Over and over again.
SPEAKER_00It is, and people that would follow him. That's the idea is you're following me, go make some more babies and have them follow me. That's the whole point.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's I think here this listener, right? Like, there are some of you that are likely not married. Right. Right. Like, I don't want to say that, like, therefore, you're not living out the image of God or God's design because you didn't have kids. Um, in fact, I think that that's that should give us some hope. Yes. That there's more to this case of uh of being fruitful and multiplying than just having it's making disciples. It's living a really fruitful life, right? John 15, right? You can't be fruitful apart from Jesus. There are people that are fruitful in the sense that they have kids apart from Jesus. Right. But it says that that's not the full picture. There's more to it. There's a reason that Paul says that things like singleness and and stuff are still God on.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And you can certainly walk in God's will for your life and be single, as Paul said. But I also do want to reiterate just on the marriage and the children part, because I think it's worth stating, particularly in the 21st century, because we're backwards as a society now. Where children are now seen as a nuisance.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, they're a hindrance, they're an option. Like you don't need to or should. It doesn't really matter. If not, if they don't fulfill you, don't do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I do think if the root of that decision is your own selfishness, like your own, then there's there's sin. There's sin involved in that. And I think that has permeated into churches where it's like children are like, well, like if you really want to deal with it, yes, or we put it off until we've actually done everything we really want to do with our lives before they get in the way and they mess up our plan. Like those are honestly, I think, worldly ideological things that have come into church walls because the enemy, once again, wars against everything that could that is good and what God wants. He does not want it. God wants us to grow up, and if God's calling us to marriage, get married and have babies. I mean, these are these are good things. And I think marriage has been devalued in society where why are people not being fruitful and multiplying? Because they're just shacking up and not having kids. And then this happens in churches too. And it goes against the creation order that we want to have sex without the multiplication. And those are problematic issues. Um, and so I think there are some creation order issues, I think, at hand right now that I think shouldn't be glossed over on that one, because I really think one of the biggest issues in Christian society, I won't speak about the world, but in Christian society, is that people undervalue, I think, getting married and having babies. That's become a problem, and it gets put off and off career first, this first. And I don't know where that came from. That wasn't the way God designed us, really.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's ahistoric. Yeah. That sounds weird to say. It is. But and I know as Baptists and I'm we aren't the most into church history ever, but if you look at every other theological position on like what's the point of marriage, right? Like, yes, things like sexual like fulfillment in the in God's design and things like that are nice like bonuses on top. Yes. But every single major theologian views the point of marriage is is children.
SPEAKER_00It's the catalyst of procreation, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01Like part of the covenant is rooted in the creation mandate, be principal and multiply. Um, so that's so good. And I think that's a challenge for us, is like, yes, we absolutely don't want to overpreach this idea that therefore the thing that you are good for is having children. That's all you should do. You know, like that is not your goal in life. Your goal is to know God and make him known.
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_01Right. But in line with that, like part of living that out if you're married is literally that you would make more that they can know God and make him known.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I would encourage young people out there too. If if you're young and you're listening to this and you're not married and you want to be married, that is a noble ambition. Because I think that's the other thing, is a lot of people, and even parents, frankly, parents of young adults have encouraged their young adult children to put off marriage. No, you're too young for that. Don't think about that. Maybe later when you actually make enough money. We're told in the book of Proverbs, I don't have the exact citation, that he who finds a wife finds a good thing. And this is God's design for us. And especially if for the young men out there that might be hearing this, if you have that desire in your heart to be married, even Paul says that to his point. He says he says, go get married. That's what he says. And so grow up, get a job, and get a wife. And like go go do this.
SPEAKER_01Stop looking at a porn, kid.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Just grow up and be a man.
SPEAKER_01That will kill more than anything else, your desire to live out God's desire.
SPEAKER_00And then on the other side, I want to say this for for maybe female listeners. Yeah, to your point, not every woman is called into marriage. I understand that. But most will be statistically. Yeah. And I think also women, I do believe, have been given worldly ideology that having kids or raising children is just a cop-out, that that's not actually the 21st century method. But you said the right word. That is an ahistoric, you know, perspective. Where women that have children and raise children, what a blessing from God. What a great blessing. And I know not all women can stay home with kids and all that, so I'm not trying to paint broad strokes, but I also want to be clear that that if a woman wants to have children, that's a noble ambition. That is a noble ambition. Exactly. We we just gotten so backwards. I don't go, I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01And and I'll say this too, and I do think it's important whenever we say think, talk about like having children and stuff. There are couples that struggle with this. 100% and are struggling with infertility.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And really, like that is a difficult battle in their marriages and their lives. And no, that like that does not mean that God is not looking on you without favor. And does not mean that God does not love you, right? Like God is in control and he's sovereign in those things, and maybe that is not comforting to hear, but uh that doesn't mean that his favor, his love has changed. It's just like that that's such an important thing. I think we can feel shame about like we say, yeah, yes, that's true, then why am I struggling? Exactly. Right. And that doesn't, you know.
SPEAKER_00And the answer that honestly gets into Genesis 3. Yeah, you know, because we'll get there. It's the fall. Because I because I agree, and that's where the heartache happens in all of this, because you're exactly right that he gives these commands of what we need to do, and then because of the brokenness of the world, things don't always operate the way that God originally intended. And I I agree with you, that's a a good point that a lot of people want to do this, and it just it doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's and it is sad, and there's other options and things that could be talked about, but I know that'd be a rabbit trail, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Thing I mean, adoption and all that stuff is great. Uh we could talk and talk and talk about all the different uh ways and and and and forms of talking about fertility and stuff, yeah. Uh the next part of that command is is talking about subdue the earth, talking about take dominion. What does it mean to subdue the earth and take dominion? Especially pre-fall creation, right? Like animals are not on the other team. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So what does it mean to have dominion? How should we think about the earth? Yeah. Um how should we think about nature? You know, is it does it exist as something to be exploited? Yeah. Right? Is that does that mean that therefore I should just drill as much oil as I want and just we're gonna blow all the mountains up and extract the research because that's why God gave them to us? Does it mean I therefore should never dig a hole in the ground because that's bad stewardship?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's complicated. Yeah. Um, well, let's talk about the word subdue first in and dominion, because we didn't I didn't really talk about that much yesterday. Um that word subdue is used different times in the Old Testament. It sometimes actually has to do with going and taking the land with Israel in the book of Numbers that happens where the words brought up the same Hebrew word. Yeah. Exactly. And the commandment get being given to Israel to go take the land.
SPEAKER_01Fulfills the promise that God's already promised to them.
SPEAKER_00To the promised land, which you see the connections here of one Eden to then this promised land and the same connection there where they're called then to take the land and subdue it, meaning subject it so that it would yield a profit to them, to make it fruitful, to make this land work for you. Yes. Um, and so it goes back from the promised land, now back to here in Genesis, we're talking about, where the idea is being given to Adam and Eve that this land is the land of promise I'm giving to you right now. Um, this is for you. I've created it. And I think that same decree is being given to Adam and Eve is to make the earth's resources beneficial for yourself, to subdue it.
SPEAKER_01Enjoy the land I've given to you.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And with that, I think then it then you can infer with that command. That means there's a command to investigate the resources, develop them, uh, cultivate them. Um, and and then that gets into the word of exploit them, you know, because then that gets to the other side of it. I know, and I would say not exploit them. This is where we have to differentiate. Because I think there's there's a difference between cultivating versus exploiting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and and I think it is good and righteous, you know, hence technological development and advances all across the world for us to explore, investigate, and build and create. But then to your point, because of the fall, this gets to the fall, and this is the command pre-fall once again. Because of our fallen nature, sometimes we're not developers, we're exploiters. And maybe, and maybe we don't consider all these things. But then when you get into some things that's complicated, like oil, that's a great example. And I'm not gonna claim to be an oil expert.
SPEAKER_01Um get back to our dinosaur questions. I know.
SPEAKER_00But let's just talk about oil for a minute as a good example. That's a good case study. Oil by us drilling and bringing oil. I like having lights on in my house. I like my car moving. That seems to be a good thing to subdue the earth in that way. But does is there sometimes casualties that come with that in in in regards to wildlife and the creation? Yeah, I think everybody has to acknowledge that. Does that mean we should stop? Is that is it wrong to do it? I would say it doesn't mean it's wrong, but it we have to be at least mindful of the tension there. Of we have to be stewards. And what's the balance there? I think in a broken world, you're seeking a balance that is not crystal clear all the time. Yeah, I think I think that's the hard it's not black and white anymore because the world is broken and there's pain that comes with development that that was not there in the original decree. That's good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I when I hear this, I'm always immediately thinking about hunting. That's like the first thing I think about. Yeah. I I mean I'm a pretty big hunter. I don't get to do it as much now as I well, for one thing, I don't live in Arkansas where there's a lot more hunting, but um, I don't have as much time to do it either. Um but I I wonder, is there even a reason to hunt in a pre-fall version of the earth? Like, do we have to do like what it what does that even look like? Should we all be vegan?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, he told Noah to start slaughtering some animals. So post-flood, I feel I feel great about it.
SPEAKER_01That's a that's a whole I had that as our next question in itself, right? Is if if death we talked about like the most compelling reason for you being a younger creature says that is that death entered after the fall. If if carnivoreness, I don't know carnivore isn't it? Predators and carnivores. Predators and eating meat and stuff is death to food, right? Is that is there something that's like, hey, we're while maybe it's not sin, it's something that's rooted in the fall. Like, are we celebrating this? In eternity will we eat meat?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and I think and I think the in the present world, we obviously feel we can feel okay about doing this because he told Noah to do it. And and then in the world. Yes. Acts 10, Peter says, like, for he tells Noah go kill the animals, then he tells Moses limit what animals you can eat, and then he says to Peter, you can eat anything you want. Yeah, so yeah, so it so we can feel good about eating anything in Christ. But all that being said, it's a good point that you don't see that happening there early. And I think that young earth perspective, I would agree, I think it correlates in my own worldview that death all just kind of came together right there with the fall. And things that were great are now broken. Uh it things are complicated because what did he create? It says right there, I'm giving all these trees to you, I'm giving you all this fruit. These things will you will enjoy them. He didn't say initially, go go slaughter those living creatures. I just the beasts I just made by you. He didn't say that. Um so yeah, death and fall to me all seems to go together.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think like God's command for us is to be fruitful and multiply. It's not to be as comfortable as you can and then multiply. Yeah. Right. And I think sometimes the re the ways that stewardship and and our relationship with nature and and the resources we've been given go off the rails is we say, how can I make myself the most comfortable I can by extracting the most value out of what God's given? And that's just not God's heart towards anything, it's not God's heart towards us. Why would it be our heart towards the things He's given us to take care of?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, that's uh that's a different one.
SPEAKER_00Well, and also, and this kind of gets into my eschatology too, but but would you would you look at the world and how to that point we exercise dominion, but we also do it selfishly around the world and we're exploiting the world. People are always worried that the world is gonna like combust and stuff and all these problems. Yeah, and I'm like, just read Revelation, that's what happens. Like that's the whole point. If people just look to the Bible, like I do think that kind of is the story of the Bible, is we're given this this decree. Now fall has tainted it, and we're gonna squeeze this earth and exploit it and all these things. And one day this earth will, for lack of a better word, combust. It's gonna dissolve, is what Peter says. Yes, like and and all these things will end, and then God's gonna make a new, and he's gonna make a new heavens and new earth, and all this will time with the end go come together at the end of times. But that idea though of also the preservation of this earth, which I think there's a balance there too, where I think for some people that don't have their hope in the new heavens and new earth, they make this world their Eden. And then and there's also I think a godlessness that goes from stewardship to idolatry, where the idolatry is of the creation. Yes, and there's a lot of that that goes on in that's new age spirituality, it is real.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Because there's the extremes of exploitation and idolatry, and probably somewhere in the middle is stewardship, and that's and that's what we have to aim for.
SPEAKER_01I would wager that uh a larger percentage of my own peers that are not believers today have some vague form of manifestation and and spirituality that's tied to things like the universe and mother nature and stuff. More than there are like atheists traditionally. You know, it's just this vague. I guess I guess there might be a God and there's the God consciousness and all this stuff.
SPEAKER_00And isn't it amazing that Moses' people were the same way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Nothing changed.
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, we've been reading 3,500 years ago in the students, and man, like the way that God mocks, he says, You're worshiping gods you made with your hands. Yeah. Right? That's foolish. That's again a whole other podcast and a whole other topic. Uh well, I didn't write this one down, but I do I want to fire off at the hip at you really quickly. Um so Adam and Eve are are formed out of the dust. We read really briefly Genesis 2 7, they're breathed into in life and all this stuff. They're painstakingly designed by God. How is the way that I'm created different than the ways that they are created? Because I wasn't grabbed from dust, at least not physically and literally, right? But we we would say that God created me. Right. How is that different?
SPEAKER_00Well, because we're image bearers of God, we create things. Um we could say that figuratively of the things we develop and the things we build, but also we create human beings. Now, I created, I'll say that word loosely, I'll explain it, three children.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00I needed my wife to do it.
SPEAKER_01We had a part of it, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00My wife and I, we created a very small part of it. Yes. Admittedly, she did most of the work. But we we created three children. But also, I would say I didn't create those three children. You know, there's there's the beef fruitful and multiple. Multiply the creation decree. We obeyed it. And and and God blessed it. Yeah. And he's still the creator of my three children because ultimately he put together that decree, but also the biological processes for procreation.
SPEAKER_01God directs that.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And I do believe that God is over and sovereign of every single conception, every single birth, every single child. And that goes even beyond into the animal life, too. When you watch an egg hatch, I believe God is sovereignly at work there in the big picture of bringing that life into being. And so God's at work, but but we are his workers, I guess is kind of maybe one way to explain it. Um I don't know if that fully answers the question.
SPEAKER_01I think so often I think a temptation, even as Christians, is that we make God far too small, right? And far too like ignorable in natural processes. And he this is like part of the point of Job is he says, Who are you, oh man? Right? Like you want to be God, you want to be in charge, you want to say what's right and wrong. I'm holding creation together, right? Like, not just like, oh, I'm like keeping the roof on. Like every piece and cog and and movement is being directed by God. So it's not just that God founded the process of egg fertilization that results in an embryo that results in a child one day, right? But it's that God is directing the DNA and the cells as they form and grow. Yeah. That is powerful.
SPEAKER_03Psalm 139, knit me together, my mother's womb.
SPEAKER_00And that has to be, and I think it's important for us as Christians to remember that, especially in the modern age, which I know this gets into a whole conversation we can't do all of it on. Yeah, but we talk about things like IVF. Yeah. Um, because you can look at that from a secular perspective and and basically say science is God and the doctor is God, and these things are coming together, and this is just a lump of cells, and these are just things coming together of no substance other than what we define it. We as Christians have to push back against that, that regardless of the agents with that, that fertilized egg, in other words, there's life there. There's life. I think this gets in that conversation then of well, well, where's God in that too? Um, which is admittedly a much more harder theological conversation talking about when does life begin uh and those things with those embryos.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I think it's an important one for us to at least mull over. Maybe we can't unpack all of that today. But if we do believe in the sovereignty of God and that he's the author of all life, then that means that ultimately those fertilized eggs that are then implanted are also God ordained. He's over, he's over that. That you you as a doctor don't get to play God. God is the one blessing that effort and and bringing that life, which then means those are lives that have to be stewarded too. Absolutely. Which becomes very complicated on all the other issues with IVL.
SPEAKER_01For those that don't know, frozen embryos. You're typically fertilizing something like hundreds or plus incorrect eggs. And so the difficulty for some Christians is then hey, if life really does begin, like when God's knitting these lives together, then we're freezing these eggs. Like, are we freezing? Is this the same thing as abortion and so on?
SPEAKER_00It becomes a very complicated conversation.
SPEAKER_01Hear this, listen, it's more complicated, I think, than the abortion discussion. And also, if you were born through like the process of my own. You were made by God. You were made by God and you are a percent and we are glad you are here. 100%. Hear that. Because I think that's something that gets lost in this, and people can get hurt. Um Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And I'm not even trying to badmouth IVF and say it's all wrong either, but I think it's something for us to consider in this conversation. I know today might not be the episode to have a full IVF episode because we've had a full episode here, but I think that's something that we need to consider in our own theology, that if we do believe God is the author of life, then that means life and God Himself is involved in that whole exercise. And that means then there's theological consequences for how we view all those different things, including to your point, the wonderful children that have been born into this world. We have church members that have been born through IVF. I know some here. And praise God. They're made of the image of God, and I believe made by God. But that means we also have to have those other conversations of what all does that mean then morally with some of these other folks.
SPEAKER_01Not even just talking about things like how expensive IVF and stuff is, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Other can of worms, but like, hey, at what point is like should we just be adopting and things like that? You know, it's a conversation, people, yeah. Difficult, you know. I I don't want to step on any toes or hurt any feelings there, but it is it's worth thinking.
SPEAKER_00There's a tension, it's there's just a lot to talk about.
SPEAKER_01And I do think a good place then even to end this conversation is man, like I just hope, if nothing else, that this would just challenge you, make your view of God bigger. Yes. Right? Like, make your view of God that He is encompassing more and in control of more than we can hope or imagine. But that's that's I think all we have for this time. Thank you, Steven and Jonathan, for joining me. Listeners, make sure to keep submitting questions. We have uh a couple of really awesome user-submitted questions coming up when we talk about things like the fall, and we talk about things like uh the rest and Sabbath and rhythms for discipleship, and how does that reflect what God is doing in creation and all this stuff? So just keep leaning in there, keep submitting your questions. We want to keep engaging with you guys. Thank you for listening to this episode. This is an ATX podcast. I will see you next time. This is Corbin Smith signing off.