Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: Rest
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For some of us rest comes easily. For others it is much more of a complicated issue. One thing is for sure...God created us to work and to rest. We see God model that rest on the 7th day of the creation story as He rested and dwelled among His creation. But how do we rest? What are some things that often get in the way of rest? Join Jonathan, Corbin, and Stephen as they approach this biblical command to rest.
Well, hello and welcome, listeners, to the C Citizen ATX podcast. My name is Corbin Smith. I'm the youth minister here at Austin Baptist Church, and we are back in our series on the book of Genesis, chapters 1 through 3, called Foundations, specifically building on the foundations that we've been covering in our recent sermon series. Joining me is Pastor Dr. Jonathan Spencer. Howdy, Corbin. And Stephen Vaughn. Hello. I don't know what should I call you Pastor Stephen Vaughn? I don't know what to call you.
SPEAKER_00I'm not a pastor. I am a minister, but Minister Stephen Vaughn.
SPEAKER_04I love it. Well, guys, man, we are in one of, I think, a topic this week that has really captured culture for the last 10 years. There's a famous book that came out, and I didn't write this down. So you might be like, I've never read this book and I don't know what this is. And maybe I'm talking out of my butt then. But uh The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry came out as kind of a seminal work on what it means to work and rest and be busy and stuff like this. And I think since then, many different churches have had a lot of really good conversations. What does it mean to rest well? What does it mean to work well? So I'm excited to be talking about this because really, as I was kind of being formed in the faith, that's when all this conversation really had begun in depth as I was kind of graduating high school, getting into college. And so uh, listeners, I hope this blesses you guys uh a lot to talk a lot about work and rest. But I think it's a good time even to think about I loved how you began. It's an interesting way to begin a sermon on rest, is to say that our first point was that we were created to work. That's what you said.
SPEAKER_03I felt like that foundation had been laid down.
SPEAKER_04I was like, I was there, but I was like, we're talking about rest. I was like, oh, you know, not that it was bad, right? But why why did you start with work? Because we we touched a little bit on work last week. I think we kind of meant to more, and then it just kind of turned into this here, which I think is really good.
SPEAKER_03But well, it's because I was trying to establish the rhythm. That was what I was really going after was that our week is supposed to have a rhythm, as you see a rhythm there in the creation order, and that rhythm is from work to rest. And that's kind of why I wanted to start that way was everybody loves hearing about rest, but nobody really wants to hear about work. But the reality is you rest after you work. And if you haven't worked, then really you're not ready to rest well. And so you can't separate the two. The two come together because God works and then he rests. Um, and in the same way, we're called to walk in that same uh creative order, the creation decree. And I think it gets overlooked sometimes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Well, and and I love this idea that I think sometimes we like to, because we're compartmental creatures so often, we like to separate like rest or work are these different things. But there is this this really deep, I think, relationship between biblical work and a biblical theology of work and a biblical theology of rest. Because if we're not doing one or the other well, we're not like God, where God can like work without rest. He doesn't we talked about that, right? God doesn't get tired in the ways that we do, he models rest because he knows we need it and because he wants to, we talked about he wants to dwell with us, he wants to tabernacle with us. Yes, right? But but maybe if you wanted to expand a little bit more then on what exactly does that relationship look like. If I'm if I'm not working in a way that honors God, how could that affect my rest?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, one, I think you just from a physiological place, I guess, I would start there that if if you're not tired at the end of the day, you're probably not gonna rest well at night, even just like in the most basic sense. Like I think sometimes people struggle with even rhythms and routines of sleep and just some of the natural processes. And sometimes it's because they haven't had the healthy rhythm leading up to their rest or they really haven't spent themselves in the proper way. Um, and so sometimes it's it's that element of if we're not working right, there's also to that point of the satisfaction that comes through work. Because if you're working well and you're achieving goals, you're finishing your job, there is a sense of satisfaction that comes through the completion of a good job that you were called to that then also kind of puts your mind at rest to go bring back that word. So if you're not working efficiently and you're never finishing anything and you're stretched in 5,000 areas and you're not actually getting anything done, that will leave you in unrest. And so you have to learn how to work, I guess is kind of my point, because the work, the work ties and leads you to the rest. But if you're working improperly, you won't find rest that you actually need.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this is there's a real danger here, and we haven't really touched on this a ton before, but there's a danger of turning rest into escapism. If if rest is not coming from a place of contentment and like, hey, I've worked really well. Right. And so now I'm gonna rest well and rest in God. And said it becomes a I'm gonna rest it's procrastination, right? And I do this all the time personally, so I'm not saying that to like hammer down on anyone. I think that my the my most common it struggles with rest are actually not me not having the time to rest, it's me being like, man, like am I am I resting for the right reason? Am I resting to rest, or am I resting so I don't have to do this thing that's freaking stressing me out and freaking me out? I don't want to think about this right now. Right. And maybe that's a generational thing as well. I think as we've had more instant gratification culture and and phone culture and all these things that are natural, easy pull to plug on any conversation I don't like or any any action I don't like. Maybe that's bred me to be a little bit more like that. But I I found at least for me personally that that's that's a struggle for me. What about the other way around? If we aren't resting well, maybe the obvious one is like it's hard to work well because like we aren't rested, right? Right. Uh but maybe say a little bit more, other than like the physical elements of that. Like, what are the spiritual elements to like a restless life?
SPEAKER_03Well, we work even in our faith. So we're told to actually work out our salvation. Like there's also that side of it, and then faith and work. So if we're talking in the spiritual sense, in our discipleship, we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are our faith is leading to good works. And so in your faith progress, too, there's also that side of it, too, that complacency I think can rob us of the good works, Ephesians 2.10, that God has called us to work to walk in. And so if we're not doing the good work God has called us to, then there's naturally kind of, I think, an angst that comes in the spirit within us, because we're not walking in obedience to do the things we're actually supposed to do, which that angst then can also lead to a restlessness that's in our spirit. Because in our spirit, we have that flesh versus spirit, you know, dichotomy, that that that war that's waging on within us. Our spirit is trying to lead us to walk in obedience to do the things that God's called us to do. Our flesh is pulling us away from it. And so if you're not working and doing the good works that God's called you to, there's a there's a conviction is probably the biblical word, but there's a restlessness in your spirit that comes through spiritual uh apathy, I guess is probably the best way that comes through that. And and where on the other side, when you're walking in those good works and then you're following the rhythms that God has established in your life, you find contentment and you find rest because you're walking in obedience to his will. So it so it carries over, I guess I don't know if that answers your question fully, Corbin, but I think it's it the same principles are equally true in the spiritual realm as well. If you're not doing what you're supposed to do, then you're not gonna rest well. That's the truth.
SPEAKER_04The biggest picture, and this is not a place that we jump to everyone when we think of like not resting well, is like there's a reason in Psalm 23. Like the the God God is making the psalmist lie down in green pastures, he's making the psalmist come to places of rest so that the soul can be restored. And I think when the Bible talks about like our souls and their relationship to God, it's often like like a gardener, right? Like God is this gardener that's growing us and shaping us and forming us. In the same way, like a plant withers and dies if it doesn't have the nutrients it needs, if it doesn't have the light it needs, all these different things. And I'm not much of a gardener, so I couldn't tell you much more than that. But I do think that's such an important piece of of the Christian kind of spirituality is a loaded word, right? But this idea of the ways we interact with God and the ways we rest in God.
SPEAKER_03Um, and when Jeremiah talks about how his mercies are new every morning, it's that that idea that there's work waiting for you every morning. And and if you don't renew yourself in the Lord and you haven't you're not resting in the Lord, you're gonna have nothing to pour out on that work that you have in front of you, and you will burn out emotionally as well as spiritually. Um, because that that goes beyond the sleep patterns. Like you could try to get your seven hours of sleep every night and be emotionally and spiritually. And it is, by the way, you need that, that will mess up everything else. All these other things are all interconnected. But my point is maybe you actually sleep okay physically, but you might be emotionally and spiritually tired all day long. And and and and that's kind of where to answer your question how's this related to the spiritual? If you're not being renewed in the Lord, finding your rest in him, then yeah, the work he has for you ahead of the day, it's gonna drain you. And if you're not filled up, to your point, you're gonna have nothing to pour out. And and so these things work together. You can't work without rest, uh, and you have to have these things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you can see it on people. Yeah, I mean, you can physically notice when somebody's been just overwhelmed and stressed and tired and all these things in hurried. Affects your relationships with people, like we said, we're it's all connected. Um, I I I think of myself even, I have a tendency to want to just fixate on things, and sometimes it's hard for me to like shut my brain off at night and physically get sleep. But it's also hard for me to shut my brain off and spend some time in the word and in prayer with God, and I have to force myself to get there. If I don't, then I end up so overwhelmed that it affects my ability to even do the thing that I'm focusing on. Right.
SPEAKER_04That's right. It's good. So all that to say, rest pretty important in in the scriptures. I'd say we've gotten to a good place there. Yeah. What then are the the enemies of rest? What pulls us away from rest? What are the things that we need to watch out for in our own lives?
SPEAKER_03I think the uh the badge of honor of busyness, um, and and you know, some people might call it hustle culture, you know, where you're always feeling like you got something to prove to the world that's actually not watching you anyway, but but like that I have to like always achieve, always go to make myself look important to others as if that's what makes you important. But we always but we always feel that because we I've joked about it, we all do, that you know, when somebody asks you how you're doing, you it's always one of two things. I'm either good, I'm killing it, or I'm busy, I'm important. Those are the two, those are the two answers we give people conversationally. And busyness is a badge of honor. So because of that, then we feel like well, we need to get involved in 500 things to make ourselves worthy of other people's um relationship, basically, and their attention, which is very toxic to live your life that way. Um, and eventually it will run you dry because the irony is you're not actually winning anybody's approval anyway, and all you're doing is you're self-destructing. Um, so hustle culture, I think on the other side too, that plagues us and and makes it really difficult to rest is also comparison culture because we're always wanting more than we already have. Um, and a lot of this is integrated into social media, into all the things. When we scroll and compare, even if we're not getting on there to compare, we innately compare. That's what we do. Um, and when you do that, you're always seeing the toys you don't already have, or you're seeing the trip you wish you were on, or you're seeing the job that you don't have, um, you see the family you don't have, you see the fill in the blank. And if you live there too much, it just gets you fixated on always doing and achieving. Because it's like, well, I'm not where I'm where they are. I need to get there, I need to do this, I need to do that. And it's okay to have goals and ambition, but there's a once again a toxic line that carries over to where then you're just always chasing the carrot and you're never actually resting because it's always about I gotta get to where these other people already are, versus just being in contentment with where God has you in this season and it robs you of your rest.
SPEAKER_04There are many things we could say there, man. But I just wonder if more often than not our internal voices are telling us some form of if I can just get this promotion, then I'll be worthy.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_04Like we wouldn't say that we'd be like, of course that's not true. But that's how we live, that's how we react when we don't get it. That's how we react when we aren't achieving. And I there's just such a there's a real discipleship disease. Uh I think from even a young age that we have this problem of we're we're we're building young people and even ourselves up today as we get older to say that that your values and what you can achieve, you should identify yourself by what you produce. Right. Right? It's uh there are a lot of smart people that said, How disordered is it that when I think of like when I introduced myself and they're like, Oh, the first question I ask you is, Well, what do you do? Yeah, what my value to you is only in what I what I can do, right? And it's uh pastors, that's true as much as anyone else.
SPEAKER_03True, right? How how many you running in your church? That's always how you start.
SPEAKER_04I was talking to Sebastian say we were at FCA vanigriff, and we didn't say like how many were you running, but we started talking about stuff, and I was like, man, like that's that's disorder. Like I don't know these guys' families, some of them. Yeah, and I asked that about like that's and I I had to check myself, man. Um and so I I do I I think that such a caution is that we can't identify more with what we produce than with what God says about us. And that kind of ties back some to what we talked about last week, because I think when we I when when we identify with what we produce, even if what we produce are good things, if work is a good thing, there's a balance between hey, work is good and it's a part of what it means for me to have my identity in the image of God, versus work is so good that I'm gonna make this my identity, yeah, because then I get some sort of some sort of feedback or some some good things to it to me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, and the satisfaction comes from acknowledging the good works that God has uniquely called you to do and then doing them well and to the best of your ability. But the problem is I think so often we're out of touch with even who we are and what God has made us good at and what we're called to, that we just look at what everybody else is called to and what they're good at, and we just want to do those things. And we because ultimately we we envy, we envy the accolades, the success, the fill in the blank. Um, so those things will just rob you with internal rest. One other idea I was gonna throw out there, Corbin, it just came in my mind. I think what robs us of rest sometimes also is intergenerational conflict. Yeah. And what I'll mean by that is this when it comes to the topic of rest, to your point earlier, you were actually alluding to it, Corbin, with books and when publishing and studies were coming out of this. This whole thing's kind of a newer thing. I mean, really in the big spectrum of of sociology and looking at these things, psychology, it's all newer things where we're talking about these ideas of self-care and you know, and rest. Yes, work-life balance. Like, yeah, you talk to a boomer, they're like, what's that mean? Like, I've never I've never heard of that. What are you talking about? You can rest when you retire. Exactly. Rest when you die, young man.
SPEAKER_04It can almost be a badge of honor to have that mentality.
SPEAKER_03It is, but but to my to that point, though, it's also hard to sometimes find uh common ground in some areas organizationally, whether it be in churches or outside corporately, when you have generational differences where the topic we're talking about right now has not really been championed until probably the last 20 years. And and so when if you're talking about people that went through their formative years of career and all those things, and they basically were told don't rest, they basically were told to do everything opposite of what I just said and what we've been talking about of just grind, grind, grind. When people come back to these rhythms and they start talking about that, it's viewed as soft, it's viewed as a cop-out, as a lack of uh work, as anti-American, it's not capitalistic, it's not, it's not driven, um, it's soft. So that's my point is it's a loaded topic. And I know there's a lot we could talk about that, but I really legitimately think if you're talking about like a Gen Z guy, I'm a millennial, but if you talk about a Gen Z guy and a boomer guy, and they're talking about rest, they have two very different perspectives on that topic, if I'm gonna paint broad strokes, and that will lead to some conflict on this issue of expectations in one's life.
SPEAKER_04And the people that are speaking into you, I mean, I I hope, listeners, that you have older people to speak into your lives, right? But that can also create some challenges when we're talking about things like this. It does. And that's the I think the importance of an intergenerational church and ministry and understanding and and even theology that's spoken into by people older and younger than you is that you kind of get this more robust understanding. So that's a good thought, man. Uh what about we we talked a little bit, I think, about identity and work and busyness. Uh, a common word that's come up in conversation about this is this idea of hurry. You might have heard before someone say Jesus was never hurried. What does it mean to live a hurried life? And and maybe why is that dangerous? How can we avoid it? Is it dangerous? Is it not? Are we making too much out of that? You know?
SPEAKER_03I think a hurried life is really marked by someone who doesn't run their calendar, but their calendar runs them. Like they they've lost control where they're just always moving on to the next thing. Other people's their agendas become your agenda very quickly. You're always taking on more. There's not a thoughtful process to how you're going to spend your day and your week, your quarter, your year.
SPEAKER_04Or it's dominated by other people's plans and things. Well, that's kind of my point.
SPEAKER_03And that's my point. And a lot of it, and you're right, in parenting, there's obviously uh the unexpected things that will always come up a hundred percent. But but I think what also leads to a hurried life is for starters, sometimes people just don't have a plan. And like if you don't have a plan and you haven't organized your thoughts of what you're trying to do methodically, day by day, week by week, month by month, well, then you're always rushed because you just feel like you're just taking on the next problem constantly all day. And so that lack of discipline, I think, can lead to a hurried life. That's okay. Um, but I think beyond that, I think you are correct. Then there's also just the fires, and and there's that saying of, you know, uh, your emergency is not my emergency. Don't make your emergency my emergency. But but everybody wants to basically make their emergency your emergency, especially when it comes into like home life, like you said, or uh even in with the work life, like something that's not on your schedule. You have a plan and you're like, well, this isn't on my plan, but now I have to deal with it because my boss told me to. That's so good. And it disrupts the whole system you just tried to build.
SPEAKER_04We've been thinking a lot about this in students. Uh I love what you said about like discipline. I think even another word, it's a buzzword, but intention. It has a lot to do with the way I plan my schedule and my time and my attention. It's listener, hear this. And we've been talking about this in students just in general with like the Christian life, that you won't wake up one morning and just start pursuing Jesus. That's not going to happen.
SPEAKER_03Exactly right.
SPEAKER_04You will not wake up one morning and start resting. You have to make time for it. Uh it's uh a wise pastor where I was working before this would often say that attention is the beginning of devotion.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
SPEAKER_04And and our attention and the things that we're devoted to, like they're related. So if I'm putting my attention on rest because I'm devoted to God, God says I should rest, right? Then I'm gonna get into healthy rhythms of discipleship and of living. But if I'm not putting my attention on these things that God says are important for me, they're not gonna happen. Right? Then naturally you're gonna be ruled by your schedule. Naturally, you're gonna be ruled by your work. Naturally, it's gonna be like, oh, the kids always have another baseball game, and I'm always gonna have to build my schedule around that instead of saying, hey, I'm gonna lead my family and say, like, in love, no, maybe we need to reorient our priorities here.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04Um So I I think that's just such a uh a challenging thing for us because we even, you know, I'm saying this right now and I'm convicting myself. I'm like, man, like how was I spending my time even last night? Like, was I intentional with where how I was resting? And I guess that kind of ties into not just, hey, are we intentional with when we're resting, but how we're resting. We talked a lot about unhealthy rest on Sunday. What does it mean to rest unhealthily? Like, what is that? Well, we'll talk about positively because I think in a lot of these conversations, we actually don't end up defining rest very positively outside of like just spend time with Jesus. And that's kind of vague. But well, first, what does it mean to spend to rest unhealthily?
SPEAKER_03Unhealthily, so when you think of rest, usually there's two different things you're thinking of. One of the absence of the things that drive you nuts, and then and then with rest also, it's the filling or the abundance of the things that give you life. Like both of those things kind of need to happen in that time of rest. It's an unplugging from the things that are breaking your spirit, but then also filling yourself up with the things that will fill your spirit. And so rest that's done well, I think has both of those parts in that plan, whether we're talking a day, a week, or whatever it is. It's I'm going to remove myself from these things. Usually that involves work responsibilities, et cetera, those things, text messages, phones, social media, yeah, whatever it is. Um, you identify those things that are like draining your life and say, I'm not gonna touch that right now. I'm gonna say no to this, but instead I'm gonna fill up in my life things that will stir my heart for the Lord Jesus Christ and that will fill me up emotionally, spiritually, physically. So that list of the what fills you up, really both lists, honestly, they're customizable based on based on the person, the individual. Um, the things that fill you up, I think is incredibly customizable because a lot of that has to do with how God built you. Like rewired. Yes, because for instance, the most basic example will be an extrovert versus an introvert. Like an extrovert, what fills them up is being around their friends, like having an experience together, having food together, having people over, hosting. Like that's not work, that is rest. Like they want to have a party at their house. They want to have people over. For some people, they're more introverted, honestly, including myself, which I'm actually kind of just barely on the extroverted when you look at a Myers-Briggs spectrum. I'm just barely over the line. But that drains me. Like hosting, that's like work. Like I I know I need to do it sometimes, and it's good to do it. Yeah, but but I sometimes feel like, man, I'm I work with people all the time. So for me, rest is sometimes like get away from people. Like that helps me. And so we're we're all just wired that way. Where you know, we gotta know who we are and what fills us up and what drains us and then plan accordingly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've got two words for you when it comes to bad rest coping and avoiding. Yeah, I think those those are two things. Like it's very easy for you to say, well, things are just not going very well, or whatever, so I'm just gonna fill my time with a bunch of blah Netflix. Yeah. May even be something more serious like alcohol or drugs or something like that. But whatever it is, you're finding an escape to try to get out of the situation, you're calling it rest when really you're just causing more problems, yeah. Ultimately, and then avoiding, which is literally running away from the work that you're supposed to be doing and saying, I'm too tired to do this right now, so I'm just not gonna do it. Yeah. Um, I think that's where we really get into a dark, weird place with rest.
SPEAKER_04There's there is a whole podcast on how that all could even specifically tie it tie into this kind of off off a left field, but like the pornography crisis in America, where like so much of so much of that is that we don't know how to rest well, so we're escaping. That's exactly what we're doing. You're saying this is just something that I'm gonna feel good quickly, and so I run away from it. Uh, and that's also like why I can't do the things I'm supposed to be doing, and I can't, you know, provide good and ordered into relations and things like that in my actual like my marriage, right? Or you know, my my my friendships, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, and I don't think that's another podcast, I think that's this podcast right here because you're exactly right. I think you're hitting on something that's very key. Both of y'all are, and I tried to allude to it in the sermon, but I didn't get the time to camp there. But pornography in in particular, oftentimes we always think that's a sexual issue, and and it is of course a sexual sin, but but oftentimes it's a coping issue to y'all's point. It's what it is. It is, it's a which is tied, I would agree, with what y'all are both saying to a rest issue. It's escapism, it's it's it's ultimately trying to find relief from what is plaguing you, what is what is painful for you, whether that's your marriage, whether that's your work life, whether that's self-shame, you know, fill in the blank. There's all kinds of issues there. Yeah, but that's a perfect example of like bad rest. And honestly, it's the same thing with Netflix. Yeah, like I mean, like I I'm not anti-Netflix. You can watch shows if you want, but but why do people sit there and watch eight hours straight of a show?
SPEAKER_04And I think shows are much healthier when they're consumed in community.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and that makes it a little bit more, yeah, it redeems it some. But but I and I've done it, I've done exactly this thing. I'm I'm bashing by the way. But but I've I've watched eight hours straight of the show.
SPEAKER_04I'm a gamer man, I get it.
SPEAKER_03But but it at the end of the day, that's escapism, a lot of it. And then actually, there's been research that's shown this that you actually feel more drained after you've done that. Um, it doesn't actually help you. Um same thing with video games, like which, by the way, I've played video games plenty in my life. But why are there so many 30-year-olds that are always playing video games for hours and hours the moment they're off work until they go back to work? It's escapism. It is, and they never actually are finding any rest. It's just like it's numbing the pain. It's not filling them up. I think I need to check myself out.
SPEAKER_04My wife's gonna be listening to this and like rolling her eyes. Um, but I do think like there's a there's a balance, and I don't think I either of those things are inherently bad. They're not. But when they rule our rest, they become escape, they become this plug-in, they become this I can transport myself eight hours from now when it's time to go to bed, and then I don't have to think about anything, and I don't have to engage with anything that's stressing me out, and I don't have to rest well, and I can just escape. Exactly right. And that's that's some of that maybe is that our our disorder goal in rest is not to be restored to work well the next week.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04Right? Because I I think some of it is that like in the same way that working hard six days of the week frees us up to rest a full day, right? Not necessarily like mandated 24 hours. I'll talk about that in a second. Sure. But in the same way, like having that rest actually equips us for the rest of the week when it's healthy rest and when it's unhealthy rest, and its goal instead of equipping and shaping and forming is actually consumption, escapism and comfort.
SPEAKER_03Yes. It's like having an injury. Yes, like if I roll my ankle and in basketball and I just put some ice on it to numb it for a little while, that doesn't actually repair the ankle, like all it's doing is numbing the pain for a little bit.
SPEAKER_04Even to flesh that analogy out a little bit more, it's like if you had an issue with your foot or your ankle, and then you're like, therefore, I'm just not gonna walk on it. Yeah, yeah. Instead of getting a boot, right? Like I when I was a kid, I was oh gosh, I was 14. I broke my foot and my toe, my big toe, where they meet. And the the the fear for a lot of doctors when they're treating someone with an injury like that, not that it's particularly serious of an injury, even is that when you walk with a boot, because it does affect how you walk, if you're not careful in the way you walk, you will teach your body to compensate and it will begin to rock walk wrongly. I think in the same way we can treat rest as this thing that's it is trying to address a real need, right? A real injury, a real drainedness, and say, therefore, the answer must be comfort.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04And therefore, the comfort that I have and the things that I want will make me feel good. And we're placing in the same way like with an idol, we're placing something that should be the throne of God in our hearts and saying, hey, this can go there instead.
SPEAKER_03Right. And to and to stay with your same metaphor, what God wants isn't just for you to learn how to walk with the boot, he wants you to get out of the boot and just get back to work. And that's kind of the point. And like, but if but uh if you just are numbing the pain and just saying, well, I'll just put this on there so I can just function, yeah, it's gonna happen. It's not gonna work. Um, and and and and I think it's important to clarify too what I was saying earlier, because you're exactly right. There's nothing inerrantly wrong with playing video games or watching Netflix or doing any of these things, but there's gotta be one, limitations to those things, as as with everything else in life, and then also things that go beyond those things. Like because those things probably aren't filling your soul other than what they might be doing is helping you decompress for a little bit to stop thinking about work. And there's nothing wrong with that. But then this gets back to that whole thing of that's the absence of the things I don't want. But then what's gonna fill you up? What are the life-giving things that you're putting into you? Because it's not that's not giving you life, it's just helping you escape, which that's fair enough. Escape, now fill up, you know, do something else.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I I think I a question that we get us to follow up a lot, especially as a student pastor, is like, well, how much of that is too much? Yeah. And I think if you're really genuinely feeling like you need to ask that question, maybe that's too much. It's like asking when you're not making you ask.
SPEAKER_03It's like asking when you're dating your girlfriend, how far's too far? Yeah, it's like, well, that's probably too far.
SPEAKER_04Uh that's such a good, oh gosh. Geez. That question just gives visceral reactions to not you know, not to be like some of the shames people, but it's just a question you engage with a lot, right? And it's hard. It is, it's a it's a meaningful question. But every dating couple always asks it's the same thing. In the same way, sometimes we don't maybe we don't treat our rest with the same intention that things like dating deserve, right? And things like relationships deserve. And actually, the a lot of those things, again, talk about like the porn thing, they're linked. They are, right? Well, as a follow-up, then does healthy rest mean that I have to sit down for 12 hours and read the book of Psalms or I'm not resting?
SPEAKER_03I hope not. Yeah. Because that's how I rest. Yeah. Um no, I think it's it's one getting to know yourself of what do you need. And some of this, honestly, I think needs to be done in community of assessing yourself. Because sometimes we're blind to really what we need.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Or not.
SPEAKER_03Because it you might think you know yourself. Go ask somebody that really knows you. Yeah. Like, really, like, you know, what do you think on this topic? What do you think is stuff I need to get away from? What do you think would actually fill me up? How do you think I'm wired? Um, to answer your question, does the Bible and God need to be a part in it? Yes. Yes, absolutely. To what extent that's that's you know, based on the person, individual, honestly, and also sometimes seasons of life. Like there's been seasons where I've needed a day of just solitude and prayer. And do I do that every single week, a full day of solitude and prayer? No. But have there been moments where I'm like, I need this? Yeah, I have I have had those days where I need to get away and not talk to a human being. Exactly. And so some of that's getting to know your own soul in that sense and understand the rhythms of of your life where you need certain things to pour life into you. Um, but but in the biggest picture, yes, I do believe in the rhythm of every day you've got to spend time with God intentionally. Yeah. And the time, the time amount, how many minutes, how many hours, it varies.
SPEAKER_04Probably the wrong question. Yeah, it's probably the wrong question.
SPEAKER_03And it also is contingent, I think, also on your work life, your family life. What time do you even have in your calendar? The point is make time.
SPEAKER_04Are you meaningfully engaging with the scriptures? Yes. Right. I think that's a big thing, like when we're reading, right? Or are we meaningfully engaging in prayer? Yes. Right? For some people, that takes a long time. Personally, for me, like when I'm really getting after it in prayer, like, and I don't say that to be like, look at me, I pray, but just it takes me some time. And I had a wise older man when I was at Highland Baptist in Waco that told me, uh, man, it takes me about 30 minutes being silent before God before I'm like, just because and not because like I'm so spiritual, but just because I can't focus unless I'm really like, hey, I've got to stop thinking about these other things, I've got to start casting these other things, and then I gotta really focus on the presence of God, seek him in the secret place, right? And that that changed how I thought about what time should look like being spent in prayer. And it's not so much about how much time, even though he gave a number there, it's more about like what does it take for me to be focused on God and for that to be something that guides me and refuels me and restores me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I get the question a lot of like how do you know when it's a good time to rest? Or like how do you know if I if this is one of those where I need to take like block out a few hours of my time this afternoon to rest, or if it's like a I just need 30 minutes tomorrow morning. And I think I know me personally, I usually catch myself talking about rest a lot when I'm getting to that point. Like I I can notice myself saying I'm tired or I just don't want to do this or whatever. And sometimes it may be a physical rest thing, sure, but like most of the time, I'd say even when it's physical rest, I usually still need a lot of spiritual rest in there.
SPEAKER_03I think I think it does have to be planned, and naturally, I'll admit I'm I'm a planner for those that don't know. I'm I'm by nature type A and administrative and Mr. Planner, yes, nobody can tell. But just because somebody's not that way, doesn't mean they can't build some of these disciplines into their lives. Because I think your point, Steven, of rest, does it have to be planned? Yes, I believe absolutely it does. Um, because otherwise it's not gonna happen. Like in my life, I plan that rest. Um, and I plan it across different spectrums, you know, daily, weekly, quarterly, annually. And what I mean by that is like daily, I have a plan. I wake up at five in the morning every day, and I've been doing it for probably nearly 20 years now. Like, and I wake up at five in the morning, I read my Bible and I exercise because I'm waking up my body, I'm taking care of my body, so it'll grow tired over the day. One, it gives me energy for the day, but then I'll be tired by the end of the day so I can sleep. Then I exercise my soul, prayer, reading my Bible, all those things. I also try to exercise my mind. I even read the news if I can find some time there in the morning to do a little bit of that. But I do those things because now I'm already working hard. Like those things are going, and I've also filled myself up. So then I will be tired by the end of the day. Because when the day's done, I mean, I'm in the mode where if you like text me after 9 p.m., I'm probably not gonna get back to you till about 5 30 in the morning because I'm gonna be in bed after nine o'clock.
SPEAKER_04Good for you that you can sleep better. What's the hardest thing for me? It's just falling asleep.
SPEAKER_03But even that, it's like it's once again a rhythm. Like I get in there and I usually try to read a little or something to wind down. But but if you develop these things, I'm not saying I'm perfect at them and I don't do it every day, but I'd say in bed, I'm usually in bed at about nine o'clock and asleep by 9 30. That generally is how life works for me. But that's a daily plan to go back to that point. That didn't just happen. That was something that was disciplined. Um, and then same thing weekly, like we having a day off. What day are you gonna try not to be on your phone? What day are you like not gonna be answering emails? What day are you not gonna be doing those things? I have a day. Like everybody has to have their day of when that is. I mean then the quarterly, like I put in my PTO in January for the whole year. There might be some differences I do over the that schedule where there'll be some other days I'll throw in there, but I generally try to map out like this is the quarter where I'm gonna take a little breather here and there. So I say all that not to say do it my way, but but I'm trying to point it out it's it's my rest happens because I have a plan. And and like and and and your rest won't happen unless you develop your own plan as well. You have to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I have I have a plan that I follow as well, but I do have some moments where it's just like it feels like there's just so much coming at me that my 30 minutes or 45 minutes every morning is just not enough.
SPEAKER_03Well, and to that point, as Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. And so so your plan, even my plan, it's like I'd be lying to you if I said my plan works every day. Like, I mean, there are some days it's like, well, that plan ain't gonna work. I gotta do something else this morning, and we're changing it. So there's there's flexibility. You have to, it happens.
SPEAKER_04And and I'll say this as a less, a significantly less type A person than Jonathan. Uh this is something like I had to discipline myself into was like learning, and I don't wake up at 5 a.m. every morning. I do wake up early, uh, but I do think that so much of the principle that is even if you're not gonna perfectly schedule out, I'm gonna read from this time to this time and this time, it's hey, I'm still gonna make time. Yes. Even if it's not I'm gonna give myself an hour and hey, I'm going to say that this time in my schedule that I know is coming up that I'm going to be free, I'm gonna say before I get there that this is for spending time with God. This is for prayer, this is this day, I'm gonna do my best to keep this as a day for rest. Right. Uh and I think even just that intention and and in blocking that off, even just a day in advance. Ideally, right, like you have a similar rhythm because it's easier to keep that that discipline, that habit, right? But I think just that intention of I'm gonna block this off and say it's important enough that it deserves its own time. It's so like it's such a gut check to me when our our first response to some of that is I just don't have the time to spend with God. Right. That seems disordered to me. Yeah, you know, and that's hard. That's that's a hard check for me because sometimes I I get there and I'm working in a church and I'm like, man, I was too busy to read this morning. It's like what? Like, I get paid to do this, man. Like, this must be hard, you know? And that's that's such a I think a gut check for us, is the reason that we are not spending time resting or spending time in scripture or spending time in prayer is because we're lying to ourselves that we really have that little margin. Because no, I'm gonna be honest, yeah, unless you are like either in crippling like power power, and there are some cases where it's like, hey, I have to work three jobs, and like I got ten kids. There are real people that are like that, and God is with them in that. We'll talk about that later because I think that's an interesting dimension to the rest. Is what if I really do have no margin? Right, right. But most of us do not have that terrible circumstance of like I just have no, like we're we overestimate how busy we are.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I agree. And and there are some of those circumstances, but I I will say this I think time is the most precious commodity we have. And and when it comes to time too, and I say this, I'm a middle-aged guy. You could call, I'm 41 years old, going on 42. I'm in the middle, I'm an unk in this in this room right now. I'm an unk. Other people, my kids would call me an unk, but in reality, I'm somewhere in the middle. But I but I will tell you, when I was younger, I thought I was always busy. Um, I thought I had no time when I was 25. And and then I look at my life at 41, I'm like, oh, I wish I had that time.
SPEAKER_04I see people having kids, and I I'm often reminded that because I don't have kids, I do have a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03But that's kind of my point. And it's kind of I've I've grown in my self-awareness where it's at that same point when I'm 51, give it a decade, I'm gonna look back at my days right now at 41 and say, man, it was easier back then. Um and and this it just comes to our lives, like the the more you grow in responsibility, and that translates into leadership, whether that be in your vocation or your home, your responsibility in general, you have less time. Like the more responsibility you have, the less time you will have. So if you want to continue to grow as a leader in any of those arenas, personal life, family life, work life, you're gonna have less time. It's not gonna grow, it's gonna shrink. And so if you don't develop some of those rhythms that we're talking about now as a younger person, it's gonna be harder to scale. And so I think that's your point is valid, Corbin. If you just have to make a plan, like it has to, you have to have a plan and just understand that this plan's gonna be harder to execute the older you get. And then until one day you'll retire, and then suddenly you have time all over again, um, where you're empty-nested, you have more time. Uh, but until that time, time is shrinking. You have you have a shrinking clock year by year, usually.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I hear this, like we often say it's because I don't have time, and then we go on vacation and we still don't do it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I know, exactly. Right. You're right.
SPEAKER_04And that's that's a big heart check for me.
SPEAKER_03We all had time to watch Super Bowl. We all have time. If I offered you a vacation today, you'd leave. Like we all we all have time. I agree with you.
SPEAKER_04Uh I guess a follow-up that's kind of related to all this is should Christians keep a 24-hour Sabbath, a biblical style, I'm not gonna work, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, Jesus actually speaks to this point, you know, as his disciples are taking grain uh on the Lord's day. And that's where that whole uh verse I actually talked about out of Mark chapter two, where it comes from, because Jesus is talking about the purpose of the Sabbath, and he's saying that the Sabbath uh was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And his point is that we don't have to be so legalistic on all of these things. That's even what he was saying then is that that ultimately man needs Sabbath, and he and we need that rest. But what happened within Judaism is a lot of things got spelled out to the extra minute detail of everything that you had to do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because they're afraid of going back to the city. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because nobody likes God's wrath. I get it. You know, and then so so they didn't want they didn't want to be punished again. So laws got added onto laws, and things got added. Exactly. And and things got added to where it became more rigorous. So to that point, you know, God's design was for us to have a full day. Now, what does that actually entail? I think legalism can come in very quickly when we start saying the absolute do's and don'ts of this is what your 24-hour period must look like. I think it's a little bit more flexible than that, frankly. Um, but but I know people might disagree on that. And I will say there's some people that practice a lot of the a lot of Christians that will take the Jewish law of these some of these rhythms and things, and they'll institute it into a new covenant faith, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with taking those principles, but it's also not mandated, some of these things of the rigorous detail of these items. Uh, because in that sense, even the Sabbath, like we need to rest. That is a rhythm of creation. Do we have to do it the way the Jews did it on the Sabbath of the Old Testament law? No, sixth day of the week. Yeah, no, like we don't. We don't have to.
SPEAKER_04So I'll say this. I think what does sometimes get silently inserted into thoughts on this is we we think like Oh, because it's not mandated, that doesn't mean it's important.
SPEAKER_03It's true.
SPEAKER_04And that's I I do want to stress, like, in everything that Jesus says about rest, and everything that Jesus says about Old Testament law, like the principles and heart behind them that are good and God honoring are are not things that are done away with. Exactly. Because I'm not taking an ioto, hey, from the law, right? He's fulfilled the law.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04And so that doesn't mean that you don't need rest. And it also doesn't mean that like 24-hour Sabbath is a bad idea.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_04And I would say like it's even more than it's just not a bad idea. It's hey, like I think it's something it's it's okay to say, like, Christians should probably strive for this. Right? Like, that seems to be a very important model of the Old Testament of things like Shabbat, which are huge ways of living for God's people for thousands of years.
SPEAKER_03I would agree. My only pushback on it is like, what does that mean, though, a 24-hour Sabbath? That was what I'm getting into. Is that like how far can I walk from my house? Exactly. And that's those are the wrong questions.
SPEAKER_04Hey, am I am I making a day for us? And that doesn't, like, I think sometimes we hear making a day for us, that means like we said, we're like, oh, so therefore I have to go up the mountain and be monastic and and just read my Bible and pray for No, it's like, man, have people over for dinner. That's what that is what people did in the Old Testament. That's true. Is they had Shabbat dinner where they had all their friends and family. Now that took some weird dimensions as things went into the Second Temple period, and there were some like, how far could you walk, or are you gonna be like jailed and stuff? But it is still important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I agree.
SPEAKER_04It's good. Well, uh, we've talked a lot about the ways we can rest the ways we should rest, uh, and we've been very maybe us-centered. I think one of the biggest barriers sometimes to my own rest is other people. It's uh I had a pastor tell me once ministry would be really easy if it wasn't for all these people. How do we make margin for the people around us to rest?
SPEAKER_03It depends on your context. You know, if we're talking about in a family, um, a family unit, I think you know, knowing your spouse and knowing what they need to thrive. I think I think you serve each other in that way. Because you might have different work schedules, you might have different things where you need to accommodate one another, also knowing how each other is filled up. I I talked about earlier the introvert versus extrovert. Like if an introvert's married to an extrovert, they need to acknowledge that the only way my extroverted spouse is going to fill up is if, to your point, you know, we have a bunch of people in this house. Like we need to do this. This is a way I can actually serve them by accommodating them. So I think serving each other to help them find that rest is helpful. Find out the things that fill them up and pour those things into them. Um, I think also uh, you know, parenting, this is another practical element, helping each other in that sense of rest too. Like, you know, because parenting, when you have kids, it's just a game changer because you lose a lot of time. You don't realize how much time you have until you have children. And the children, children take all the time. Yes, it's it's a reality. Um so you have less margin, and there's different seasons to that of parenthood of how much time they are consuming from you. Like, for instance, in the early days, they're consuming all your time. You are their whole world, and particularly mom is especially their whole world. So then being sensitive to that of how can I help mom rest amidst that, that looks different in that season versus when you have teenagers. So I think being being uh understanding of the season of life you're in, accommodating. And then also I would say for you as an individual, um, understand that your rest will change over time in those seasons. Like going back to the mom, like a nursing mother, young mother, she's probably not gonna have a Sabbath day in the traditional sense very easily. Like that's probably that's probably not gonna happen in that season of life where she can just say, Well, for 24 hours, I'm just not gonna be around my child or anything.
SPEAKER_04Maybe thinking about parenting in a way that maybe God's not placing work in that same category there.
SPEAKER_03True, but it's pretty work.
SPEAKER_04No, it is, it is, but you know.
SPEAKER_03But for instance, I'll just use that as an illustration because this is a good, this is a good, I think, point. I know it's a random one, but it's a good case study. Like, say a stay-at-home mother, you know, so that is her work, you know. That's like her whole job in that sense.
SPEAKER_04And it's value, I mean it's valuable.
SPEAKER_03It's some of the best work you can ever do with your life. And and but to that point, that season, you have so little time because you just have a little human being that's attached to you all the time. So you, in a sense, have to give yourself one some grace. Um that that there's seasons of work that sometimes go beyond what you want to be your normal rhythm. And this would go in the same way in the corporate world too, or work world. I go through seasons of life, I told you all those rigorous disciplines. Seasons where I'm like, I can't do that. Like, like this, this ri this structure is gonna be broken.
SPEAKER_04If I got ten meetings if I have to do it, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And some seasons you just grind where I I don't get to Sabbath a full day, for instance, like it's a half day, or because there's somebody that died and I have a funeral here. Like, I mean, there's there's things like that, things that happen that we have to be flexible.
SPEAKER_04Or hard sometimes. It's okay, God understands.
SPEAKER_03So I think you just have to have a sense of grace for each other and grace for yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I I wanna I love that you kind of touched on parenting here because I think I think some of our unhealthy practices in rest come from when we were children, honestly. And I do maybe it's a challenge, and I know I'm not a parent here, so maybe this will make some parents roll their eyes when I say this. Your kid needs rest too. And and it's a discipleship thing, even a discipleship issue if your kid has no margin in their schedule to rest, you're not modeling that for them. And that's like like you or your kids, like I I'm a youth pastor. I it is my joy to disciple our students. I am not the primary disciple in most of my students' lives. It is their parents, even if their parents don't realize that. And and if you don't model in your own life, hey, rest is important, and you'd also don't help your kid build their schedule so that they don't have baseball seven nights a week, then there's there's something that you know that that will go like they're not gonna value rest, and then they're gonna be like, I don't know why I'm burned out and tired at 14. Yeah, and it's because they've never rested a day in their lives, you know?
SPEAKER_03Exactly right. And modeling it in your own work-life balance because that's the other thing is kids are watching their parents that are working, and if you're working seven days a week and always on your phone and you never take a vacation and you never do any of these things, and to your point, you're never going to church.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you're not you're not in God's word. Yeah, you never talked about God's word with your kids.
SPEAKER_03Either way, you're discipling them. It's just which disciple are you making? Because if you form that kind of disciple, they're gonna be shown that work is king, you know, that work is God, and this is what we strive for, versus establishing to your point some of those rhythms that create margin for time with God and time with people, you know, those things that matter.
SPEAKER_04It's good. And it's and I don't say that to to punch down. I know I'm not a parent. I always have to preface that because I think it can feel like I'm like telling you, why don't you just do this? You know, but it I know that's difficult, but I do think like I I did not I was not raised in a home where those things were very important. And I I look back now like, man, what could maybe have God have done in me if that if like the the the idea of like I should be in God's word had been introduced to my life earlier? If if this idea of like, man, I should find margin for rest, and rest is really important. If that had it would maybe have shaped some of the ways that I was working and living as I became an adult, and it would have prevented some burnout along the way. Yes. I think that's it's worth thinking through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What should we tell a Christian that feels like they don't have the margin in their lives today for rest?
SPEAKER_03They can get there. I I will say with with the with the little added novelty that you already mentioned, there are some people out there, and I want to be sensitive to that. There's some people out there that might be working two jobs, you know, or you have extra things going on, and and I get that. Like there's seasons also in life, and I've been in that world too, where it's like, yeah, you don't get as much time when you're having to grind in that season to make ends meet. And so there's sensitivity to that. I think even if you're in that most tumultuous time, still you got to find some time. It just might be less time in reality. But I think for the big picture, if if you say I don't have any margin, my charge to you would be to create it, just create it. That's your job. It's not my job, it's none of our jobs. Like no one's gonna do it in it for you. And you're the one that has to ultimately establish that. You might say, well, this is my job, and I I and it doesn't give me any time. Well, I'd say, well, do you want a different job? Like, like, I mean, what what what job would would help give you margin? Well, let's go back to the drawing board. What are some things we can do?
SPEAKER_04Is your work making you genuinely unhealthy? I think it's a question that's worth asking. And I don't think that's necessarily like at that point from for most people that would say, like, I just don't have time, but there are some people where it's like genuinely like, hey, yeah, like if your job is asking eight hours a week for you, is success worth sacrificing or worth worth worth sacrificing the other things in your life, right? Like to the detriment of of your relationship with God.
SPEAKER_03And I've known and I've known people over the years that the alter success is a is a tempting idol. Well, and I've known people over the years that have walked away from careers because they couldn't have time with their kids. Yeah. Um, they've changed their careers. I've known people that have gone back to college, you know, and changed career trades and areas because they didn't like where that career was taking them. So I'm not saying any of these things are easy. I know those are all very hard, like life transitional type things, but they are things that you gotta ask where you're saying, if if this is not working, it's not gonna start working by just trying harder. Like if the system's broken, then you have to say, well, then what's gotta give? What's gonna change?
SPEAKER_00And even with that, like if you if you do continue to work lots of hours, I mean, there are other ways to find some margin in there as well. I mean, don't you drive to work. Exactly. Yeah, you know, listen to put put uh God's word on audible and listen to it.
SPEAKER_04It is that lesser to to hear God's word. Just a reminder, most people were not literate for a very long time. And the primary way that people interacted with scripture was audibly in the Sunday service. True, it's a good word. And then when they got to gather with other people from the church. Yep. So it's a good word.
SPEAKER_00And and prayer from your car. I mean, you can do that. You can find time while you're sitting there eating to read through some scripture.
SPEAKER_04I mean, have good friendships, hang out with people, like that's another discipline that we lose a lot, especially as men. Uh, but just in general, I think it's true. We're a lonelier society than we've ever been. And part of God's hospitality and community are holy things. They are markers of like the like the gospel of Luke, marked by table fellowship, right? Like the the the letters of Paul, all about communities that gather together. Uh and that's like then we're like, oh well, it's not that important as long as I can get my personal. It's no like rest in community, right? If you're like struggling to find ways to do it on your own, invite a friend to read the Bible with you sometime. You know, that's we maybe we you balk at that. That's that's changed some of my students' lives. That's just them reading God's word together. Yes, it's encouraged them even to read it on their own.
SPEAKER_00I'll throw this one out as well. And it's kind of a little bit of a rabbit trail, I guess, but singing is also a form of rest. Yeah, worship. It's very healing as well. Um, and to take some of those songs that mean a lot maybe to you and your faith, or just it's a great it says a lot about God and who he is and worships him, that's great to do. Also to do together, we don't sing together enough, other than just at church. I think it's good to do that even outside of church.
SPEAKER_04Corporate worship is important, and I I think singing and and even just speaking to God, what is true about God, is is never a waste of time.
SPEAKER_03Well, and if your habits are destructive too, I would I would answer that that person's question that way of saying get some help. I think I think that's the other thing too, is like you're not you're probably if you really have a broken system and you're looking for some solutions, you don't have to curate all those solutions yourself. Like be vulnerable enough to ask some other people who've lived some life in your church to come alongside you to help you, to get some counsel, because some of the stuff we said might have not hit at all, and that's okay. Get somebody to actually know who you are and what what are you what are your challenges and then let them speak some life into you and and listen. Um, but I think if it's broken, don't try to fix it by yourself. I think would probably be the some of the best advice I would give you is collaborate with some other people and let them. Involve a local church, man.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that's part of it, man. I hope you have meaningful, deep connections in the local church. And if you don't and you're listening, like, hey, like we would love to help you find that. Yeah. Truly, uh being a part of ABC or not. Like, if that's you know, it's just so important. Well, I I know we engage with a lot of user-received questions, and sometimes we don't always say, like, hey, we're we're answering this because it was from a user or user, I guess a listener. Yeah. Listener. I was like a user because of the site we used to submit. Yeah. Um and it's which is just not the right listener or or even the audience from the sermons. Uh, I want to encourage you guys. We have been answering a lot of questions or shaping our questions in our conversation to kind of mold to some of those more questions that have a lot more to do with the topics that we were already planning on talking about. Uh, so keep submitting those questions. We're actually gonna take some time now and answer a few questions we got that maybe don't fit quite as neatly into what we had already talked about, but we think are really good questions that have good ties into what we've been talking about. So Steven's gonna give us some of those now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Alright, so here's a good one. Uh I know Jesus can transform me, but how do I take the step to let him in? What do I do if I feel like I'm not letting Jesus into my heart, but also don't know what's keeping me from him.
SPEAKER_03Asking Jesus into your heart is a a phrase that's not actually in the Bible. So I'll start there. Um and I know and I know that that might sound blasphemous for a pastor to say that out loud, but but that's a metaphor that's been used over the years to describe a transformational experience with Jesus Christ. Um, how do you know that you've placed your faith in the living Christ, or how do you know that you're saved?
SPEAKER_04You're born born again. Yes, born again.
SPEAKER_03Romans 10 9. If I if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Um and what that shows is there's two things there's profession and possession.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um and and and what are those two things? Profession, my profession of faith is that Jesus is Lord, He's my Savior and my Lord. I I call him Lord. But that profession, it's necessary for my salvation because Jesus actually says, if you deny me before man, I'll deny you before the Father. So it's necessary, but it's actually not sufficient. Yeah. Because Jesus also says in Matthew chapter 7 that many will call me Lord, Lord, and I'll say, Apart from me, I never knew you. So it gets to that question that the listener's asking. So you have to have profession, but then also possession. And that's what actually Paul's talking about when he says, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. That is faith and trust. It's it's really belief in your heart that Jesus is who he says he is, that he did die on the cross for my sins, he was raised on the third day, and he can save me. That that's that's that belief system. And so, how do you know that you know? You just I just simply ask you that. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Do you believe that He died for your sins? Do you believe that He was raised on the third day? And have you come to Him to ask for forgiveness and receive that gift? Because really it's that simple. And have you made Him Lord? Have you made Him Lord? And it's that it's once again profession, but then the possession. Like I He's my Lord, I believe.
SPEAKER_04Book of James, right? Is even the demons believe, and that's such a I think we sometimes we assume that like me accepting Jesus into my heart means that I just believe that Jesus is who he says he is. Yeah. And like that's so true. Jesus is who he says he is. Amen. Praise God, he's the Son of God, he died for your sins, rose again three days later, conquered the powers of sin and death, right? But even the demons believe that. They're really mad about it actually. They're kind of ticked.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. That means good things for them.
SPEAKER_04It means like, oh, like, hey, then what do I do with this belief? Yes, right? I place my allegiance, my trust in the person of Jesus in a way that shapes and transforms my life. Not because I'm earning something because of how I'm acting, but because of what I'm believing, genuinely, because it's good news to me, it's transforming me so holistically that it's drawn me closer to God. And some of that is a work of the Holy Spirit, I believe. It is, right? It's God changing our hearts to turn us towards him. But man, if you're asking that question and you really want to turn to Jesus, like hear this, encourage, yeah, encourage yourself. Like if you've placed your faith in Jesus, you make him Lord, like God's not like, mmm, he didn't mean it enough, right?
SPEAKER_03Like And most people that ask questions like that, the question is actually evidence that you're probably saved. Because if you're if you're struggling with that, like if I can't remember how you worded that, Stephen, but it sounded like the in the listener was saying they've they've asked him to be Lord, but they're not sure. It and if you've asked, then he's heard, and the answer is yes. He doesn't turn away people who call upon his name for salvation. And that idea of faith, also, I just have to reiterate, that's that's trust. Faith is trust at the at the core of it. So it's you trusting your life. That's why in church language we say surrender. That's usually the term you hear preachers say. It's it's you saying, Because you are who you are, I now surrender. I'm trusting you with my life, that I'm gonna follow you. And what Jesus gives us in response to that is his spirit. And the spirit of God then lives in us upon that moment, Ephesians 1, you are sealed in your heart with the presence of the Holy Spirit. And then how do I know that I've received him? Is because you will sense him and he will change you. And the transformation to go to the original word, it's not overnight. And I've talked about that from stage because that's the whole point, is then the fruit of the spirit will begin to flow out from you, but it will be a continual progress, uh process, rather. It's not instantaneous. So give yourself some time. I would I would encourage you.
SPEAKER_04Own that like so much of that is up to God, right? Like so much of that is like trusting that God is going to work things in us in his timing. And say that God drew us to himself in his timing, right? Regardless of your opinions on the exact mechanics of salvation, we'd say that God drew us to himself. Yeah. Right. And that's like such an important element of that is that like if you're asking these questions in faith, right? It's because God is doing a work in you.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And so I I say that, especially as like, like, listener, if you're like, I don't know where I stand with Jesus, like here's the good news, right? Like, Jesus really did die for your sins, he really is the Son of God. You really can't place your faith in him today. Yeah. And that should get that like if you're not if you're not that listener to submitted that question, that should get you amped. Yeah. Because that's the gospel. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's great. We'll do one more. Um, so Jonathan spoke in his message about this idea of like idols as an inhibitor of rest and how they can interfere with our rest. Um, for pastors and Bible teachers, isn't motivation, isn't motivation a factor in whether extreme efforts are idol worship or out of love and care for a hearer?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So Paul says, don't do anything out of selfish ambition. So ambition actually can be holy in a sense. You can have a holy ambition or a selfish ambition. There's wrong ambition and and good ambition, is what he's alluding to. So you're talking about motivation of preaching the word of God. Paul also calls out people in the his letter to the Philippians that some are preaching out of false pretense, you know, but they're still preaching the word of God, but it's God's, he says, even. But but even then he's pointing out that idea of motivation. Like, but their motivation's horrible, but they're doing some good work, but I don't like these people. That's kind of what Paul's saying. So when we preach, it's supposed to be motivated by glory for God to bring glory to him and good to his people. That's the whole point. Because it's it's a gift. Ultimately, teaching and preaching is a gift, and all spiritual gifts are given to bring glory to God and good to his people. It's the good for the church for the building up. So I'm not sure if the question is asked. It sounds like the quest the listener, if I'm understanding, is trying to distinguish these two sides of motivation. Some preachers, I would contend, all preachers, I won't say all, because there's also false teachers. That's a whole nother topic. But but all born-again preachers that really do have a gift from the Lord.
SPEAKER_04It's gonna be a fun game next week. We're gonna pick who's the false teacher and who's gonna.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I know. But but if we were just talking about your average born-again preacher, like they were called into service to build up the church, and they started from a sincere place of I want to bring glory to God and bring people to Him and point them to Him. What happens over time is because we're fleshly and we still have flesh in our bodies. Sometimes if we aren't resting well, if we're not checking our spirit, idolatry can actually come in, creep in into our pulpits. And the preaching actually then becomes for ourselves, in a sense, of amplifying ourselves to get the attaboys to lift up ourselves to receive power and authority over a people group. And it become becomes selfish ambition to use Paul's word once again. And so how do you distinguish? A lot of it comes down to fruit of the spirit once again. It's seeing the fruit that's coming out from the work of the individual, not just the obsessed. Yes, not just the message either. That's what I was gonna say. It's character because Paul talks about that. You can actually preach a good sermon that has proper doctrine out of false pretense.
SPEAKER_04The challenge for our idols today, man, is Paul's like, I'm not a good teacher. Yeah, I'm not a particularly effective speaker. And all these guys that are, especially in Corinthians, they're trying to deceive the Corinthians, they are these rock star, like philosophers of their age. And he says, They're grifters, man.
SPEAKER_03And how about that that most of the I mean, you think about the two most famous people outside of Jesus in in the testaments, you're looking at Paul and you're looking at Moses, and both of them were orators that said they were horrible orators. I mean, that's what they were. Both of them in both testaments, they said, We're not even good at this. And God says, Yes, why picked you? In my mind, that's why you did it. It's like, yeah, so they know I'm the one that did it. That's the whole point. And and I think that's for every preacher, even the ones that that can preach the pain off the walls. If people really knew him before Christ, they'd be like, Well, that dude's an idiot. I don't know how I don't know how why God chose him. And God's like, that's the point.
SPEAKER_00That's why like your dissertation, for instance, like the whole soul care thing is so important, especially the further you go in your ministry. It actually becomes even more important the further you go because it's just like you have such a greater tendency to fall into pride and fall into all these other things. And if your motivation is in how good can I get or how big can we get, yeah, or or how much can I do for the kingdom of God, even it it's just success and numbers are great.
SPEAKER_04Like, don't hear us saying that they're not it just gets to your head sometimes.
SPEAKER_00That's not the point.
SPEAKER_04It's the motivation is that you would be growing into disciples that love the teachings of Jesus.
SPEAKER_03You focus on the depth and God controls.
SPEAKER_04I will say to get back to the question, I don't think it's just a motivation thing. Because I do think you can go into service of God as a pastor or not, yeah, with the right motivations, but the wrong belief that God needs me to do this.
SPEAKER_03Yes, that's true.
SPEAKER_04And God does not need you, God does not need me, God does not need Jonathan, God does not need Billy Graham. All right, like the reality is God can accomplish all things himself. He invites us to be a part of what he's doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that's like like that is the good. And that's like we don't have to have this big burden to like defend the scriptures or to like be the perfect evangelist or the perfect preacher. It's like, man, God's word defends itself. You know?
SPEAKER_03And that toxic mindset will lead to a ministry of entitlement over time.
SPEAKER_04Um someone needs me.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Well, and also it leads to sin at the end of the day, because it is idolatry, and idolatry and sin always grows. James one talks about how sin always grows and it continues to develop, and that idolatry will flesh out in different ways. Like I've known, I know of a pastor who embezzled in his church. Um, and he embezzled, got caught.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And when he got caught, the whole why, he felt entitled to it, that the church owed it to him over the years because of this and that. But but it but these are things that breed out from that you know, spirit of idolatry of like the church needs me, they owe me. But let's be careful.
SPEAKER_04Let's say it with that we never believed that couldn't be us. Yeah. Right. And that's true for, I mean, not just pastors, right? Like anytime you see someone fall short in that way, like let's not look and be like, I can't believe it. But it's like, man, let's guard our own hearts in that because that's such a good thing. But oh, to answer the question, right? I think it's not just motivation, it's also, hey, do I have a right view of God in myself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then when those three things are aligned, I think it's difficult to get off track. So well, hey, listeners, I I thank you so much for tuning in with us this week's The Citizen ATX podcast. I want to invite you guys to continue submitting your questions, continue tuning in, continue joining us and resting with us on Sunday morning as we delight in God together. We hope you'll join us next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.