Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: Ground Rules
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Many of us probably have a love-hate relationship with the term "ground rules". The phrase "let's set some ground rules" gets used for a myriad of circumstances from relationships to office life and even in sports. If we are being honest though, we do often need ground rules. God created us to value order and, in doing so, He gave us some ground rules to follow as well. Join Corbin, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss these ground rules and how they affect us in every day life.
Well, hello and welcome to the Citizen ATX podcast. My name is Corbin Smith, and we are back in our series called Building on Foundations, talking about the answers that we uh have about questions that you guys have had and questions we've had in Genesis. Joining me this afternoon is Pastor Dr. Jonathan Spencer. Howdy, Corbin. And Minister Stephen Vaughn. There's a callback. Hey, how's it going? It's good to see you guys. Valentine's Day is coming on. A five-day weekend is coming on. Any cool Valentine's Day experiences? Anything good?
SPEAKER_03I went and watched four basketball games on Valentine's Day and my children. It was very romantic. I was with her.
SPEAKER_02And two sets of grandparents and dead. Great grandparents. It was a big old date. Yeah, with all of us.
SPEAKER_04It's a big old date. I have some friends that they do a Valentine's dinner like all together. Uh-huh. And that just does not sound like what I want on my Valentine's Day, man. I'm gonna be honest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Stephen, what about you, man? Anything cool?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Did the whole, you know, go out to eat thing and got cut out in a storm on the way back. It was great.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we got uh we were we were in the domain. We took a cooking class. That's cool. Did macarons. Nice. Very pretentious in French. Don't ask, we we were talking lunch today about my opinions on French people. Uh just kidding. No, uh they uh we we just a lot of knowledge dropped on us. I uh apparently don't know anything about cooking. Um but uh we had a really good time. Uh but we also got caught in the storm. We were out in the domain and it was pouring rain out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_03It was a good time to be in the gym watching basketball. It's just a minute all day long.
SPEAKER_04Amen. Well, hey, uh listeners, I know many of you may have been out for the long weekend, so maybe this is a good way for you to catch up and kind of recount what we've covered in the book of Genesis while you were away or watching with us online. Uh but we were in Genesis chapter two, technically in five through seventeen. We were really in four through seventeen. Um and uh I looked, I looked back to see what our official slate was, and it was five through seventeen.
SPEAKER_03I know I messed up on that. Four through seventeen. That's my bad.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you're fine. That's my bad. Uh but uh Genesis four through two, four through seventeen opens up with this little line. These are the generations. It's how Moses kind of begins this account or recount, maybe depending on your opinion of Genesis 2 and what it is, uh, of God creating man and woman. Uh why is that little line significant? It does a lot of heavy lifting, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it does, because it's basically transitioning into a narrative where it's going into chapter two following tracing generations, because it begins with the first generation there at the end of chapter one from kind of a 30,000-foot view, you see male and female as created, but there's not a whole lot of details given yet. And then chapter two, it seems like, okay, well, now we're getting to details, and here are the generations. And and Moses is writing a book, and just as a reminder, you know, Genesis means beginnings. He's showing the beginnings, going all the way back, and this is given to the Hebrew people that are in exile, tracing back their people's history generationally, all the way back here to Adam and Eve. So it's a transition. He uses that 11 times. So this is the first of eleven, but it shows how the the book is gonna go narrative driven and really begin explaining the generations of mankind.
SPEAKER_04That's good. I I think it's so interesting. Yes, absolutely. In the writings of Moses, this is really prominent. But it sets up, I think, the rest of the Bible in a lot of ways, and that this is a story of God telling a story in creation through generations of people, right? That's leading up to Jesus. Right. The book of Matthew begins with genealogy, right? It goes out from Jesus and into Revelation. It's this story of God bringing us back to where we've left, back to Eden. Yes. Right? That this generation that began here gets kicked out of here and then gets brought back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I I think I I do we we were laughing about this before we we started recording. It's hard to pinpoint like where exactly is Eden and all this stuff. And I think it's it's for a design, is that we've been kicked out, like we're we're away from Eden. Right. Where the the famous phrase is east of Eden. Right. Right. And so now the Bible is the story that's gonna end one day and us finally returning to this new. I think it's so cool.
SPEAKER_03I think it's a great reminder to us, even as readers, that God has purposes for every generation. Like one of my favorite verses, I say it's one of my favorite, and I probably won't know the exact verse, it's in Acts 13, but it's but it's it's one of my favorite points. I got logos up. It's about David's life. When David when Paul's actually speaking of David, and he speaks of David, that David uh fulfilled all of God's works. Uh David fulfilled the works God had for him in his generation, and then he slept. And so the idea being that David was called to a generation, he did what he was supposed to do, then he died.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and that's really supposed to be the testimony for all of us that we're all born into our generation, and our we are not the only part of the story. Genesis shows us the story's been going on for a long time, and God works his purposes out through our lives in this generation, then we die. And then we go into the 1336. There it is. So I wasn't far off. I said Acts 13.
SPEAKER_04You were pretty quick, too.
SPEAKER_03I was warm. I knew where it went.
SPEAKER_04Command F David, not too hard. David actually not mentioned a ton in the book of Acts. He's not. It's it's an outlier verse.
SPEAKER_03It really is.
SPEAKER_04Uh well, yeah, I think that's such an interesting. I heard uh I I've heard a preacher, a famous preacher. Um you guys have probably maybe have heard of JP up in the Hairsqueak and Waco, who says, you know, the a good aim of a preacher is to preach the gospel, die, and be forgotten. I think that does, that echoes true um in in in the book of Acts, right? And it also, I think, should be an encouragement to us as hearers of God's word and as livers even of God's word, right, is that we are a part of that story, that the biblical account is not done. It's finished being written, right? But it's not finished being lived, right? If we really believe that like Genesis is the beginning and then revelation is the end of this story, and then revelation hasn't happened yet, which unless you're like a super critical scholar and you think that all of Genesis was finished in the second, or sorry, Revelation was finished in the second century, right? Probably probably where you're sitting right now, right? Then that means that you're a part of this, right? You're a part of the generation that's gonna bring about like one day a return to Eden.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? Praise God. Yeah, that's super cool. Um well, we we got into the text uh and and almost right away you you gave kind of a a note on some common language about Genesis 2. Some people call Genesis 2 a different account of the same creation story. You said it's a more in-depth look at the same account, uh, and I think a lot of that debate comes from some confusing things about the the order of creation here. Right. So he talked to me. How Genesis 2 begins in in what seems like a different order than the way that Genesis 1 talks about creation. Why is that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, there's multiple things that kind of stand out in chapter two, just off the cuff. You know, I talked a little bit about one even God and how he's described as the Lord God, and Yahweh comes into the picture where before it's just Elohim, and then you see this personal God and you see a very detailed God and a relational God, where in chapter one you see a majestic and strong and glorious God. Um, you see repetition in chapter one, it's God said, God said, kind of removed, where then chapter two is very hands-on. God is very involved. So some have looked at that saying, well, that looks like two different gods, and then you get to the order of it, and then some of those scholars will say that, well, hold on. Like for instance, when Adam is created there, it says that the plants weren't there and the shrubs weren't growing yet. And then when you read Gen 1, Genesis chapter 1, well, that stuff was all made there, and then Adam came on day six afterwards. So it it seems like it should already be there if Adam's there, and so there's confusion then sometimes on the sequencing of the way things are laid out.
SPEAKER_04It's good.
SPEAKER_03And and and honestly, and there's some and there's there's a lot more details to that where I think some even it gets into how you define some of these things. I don't think they contradict each other. I'll just say that. I don't believe that. I believe it's a more dialed-in focus. But for instance, it talks about in that land, there was no uh bush, I don't have it right in front of me, but that that hadn't sprouted up. Yeah, but no, no, no, it's uh let me it's in verse, I think five, six, I'll have to pull it up too.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, when there was no bush of the field was yet in the land, yeah, and no small planet, the field had yet sprung up.
SPEAKER_03So then so then even then people say, well, hold on, this should already be there if Adam's showing up, then. But then also it comes into then contextually, how do you define land? And if you look at that Hebrew word land, it can be used in different ways. It can be speaking generally or very specifically of what kind of land. So could this be contextually just about Eden, in other words, and this region where God is purposefully putting Adam and where there are already plants in other regions. You know, there's ways to explain. Yes, is he holding back that for the work of man, which is what the text seems to be?
SPEAKER_04I'd never even heard that. Well, I I think the other question is it talks about it hasn't even rained yet. And that's that is an even bigger issue with the ordering. But I think that there's there are a couple ways you can explain explain away is maybe the wrong heart behind that, but there's a couple ways you can understand that and say that this is a unified account. I also think, and and and I come at this maybe from a bit of a different angle, I think you could say that these are two accounts of the same event in the same way that like something like the gospels are different accounts of the same event. Like I think I think the intention of Genesis 2 and Genesis 1, even as the same account, are different. Yes. And that's what I'd say. Like, it's not it's not wrong to say in that way they are different accounts. Because like God's focus is all on humanity and what he's telling us about humanity is true, and what he's telling us about the garden is true. Right. Right. And that these are the things that you need to know for this story I'm gonna tell in creation. And he almost like re-begins the story. If you look at these are the generations, right? It's like a restart to the thing, and then Genesis one is like a beginning to the whole book, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, because the whole book, obviously, the whole Bible is about God at the end of the day, but but in chapter two, the focus God gives of himself is through the lens of man. Like he's he's create he's given a lot more uh emphasis then on the creation of man, and then ultimately what is man going to do according to his purposes all throughout the rest of the book. So I think it's it's just that shift of focus where chapter one, a lot of it is us getting to know God of just who he is. And then in chapter two, it starts then shifting to mankind and who are we made to be, and then how did we mess it all up? Which is then gets into chapter 2.
SPEAKER_04What's the story of redemption? Yeah, and then where do we go from here? The Bible's all about this, right? Yes, yes. I think that's so cool. Oh, and and I think the reason I bring this up is not to like freak you out or be like, there's these, you know, concrete different accounts or same accounts or what I think it's to say that sometimes these differences are brought up as kind of a gotcha to Christians to like freak them out or make them not trust the Bible. And I would say that the original writers of the book of Genesis, right, and the original audience had no issue with this. Right. Right? There was no there there's there wasn't attention they needed to hold. And so I think for us too, we need to say, like, hey, like clearly God has a design in this. This shouldn't freak us out. There's purpose behind this. Yes. Why does God make Adam alone? Because, you know, we we've talked about you we've talked about it in the series, right? That it's not good that man should be alone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right?
SPEAKER_03It's a great question. I I've I've was reflecting on that a couple minutes before I got on this mic. So I was like, that's a really good question. I don't know if I've pondered that really well. But I have some initial thoughts because I I can't and mind you, these are the thoughts of Jonathan. So this is me reading into the text and trying to. I think one, he has to establish Adam first to establish male headship. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which I will actually get into that later on as we continue in chapter two. Because I'll exactly, because I'll argue, I'll talk about you know complementarianism, which we'll get into that future podcast. We won't deal with that today. But the idea that God made man and man and woman equal but different. He made us to complement one another. So part of that though, within that is what was often known as biblical male headship, meaning that the male, Adam, is the head of his household and he is the head of that home. And there's multiple things that point to that in Genesis. But the first thing that points to that is that Adam literally was made first. And to your point, Paul then takes that same argument into the ecclesiology of the church up to biblical male headship of the church. He points back in First Timothy 2 to a creation issue versus just a cultural issue, which is what egalitarianism would communicate in 1 Timothy. And so I think some of that, why is he first? I don't mean this in a sexist way, I just mean this in a biblical way. I think it's to define biblical male headship. Now, what I mean by that for you listeners out there, for all the ladies, I don't think that you're lesser than men. I don't think that you're less in the image of God and men, but I do believe that God has called men to be the leaders of their homes, to reflect his glory there. But just as women reflect his glory as a suitable helper, and we're going to talk about that all next week. I know I don't want to get ahead of myself. But I think that's honestly.
SPEAKER_04We'll have a woman in here that will have better opinions about that.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and we'll talk about men and women and how we're different, and that's not a bad thing. And we'll talk about that later. But I think to answer your question, he had to establish that, and the only way you do that is by creating one first. I think that's part of it.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I think that should actually be an funnily enough, that should be an encouragement to women, because I think sometimes the way that complementarianism is framed is because the men are better or something like that.
SPEAKER_03And that's not the point.
SPEAKER_04That's not the argument Paul's making. It's not biblical to say that, right? It's not biblical to say that men and women have entirely different giftings, right? But it's that God has an order for them to use those giftings to best bring himself honor and glory in creation because God is in control, he's sovereign and he's in charge.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I think there's a second point, Corbin, shooting off the hip of the why, why Adam first. I think if ultimately all of creation is created to bring glory to God, that's why we exist, that's why everybody has breath. What's about to bring a lot of glory to God is Adam finding a helper made for him. And he's gonna start singing, literally singing. He's singing the praises when he sees Eve being presented to him. And so God, I think, in his infinite wisdom, understood by revealing Eve afterwards, this would bring glory to him, and then also good to Adam. Like it's a gift, that gift that then hopefully he would steward, understanding that wow, like wow, this yeah, what a gift, which brings glory to God, and then good to Eve as the wife when she's revered and respected as the way that she was created, which is a daughter of God. It's being presented. And so I think all these things were being set up that way that it wouldn't have come together rightly if they were both created at the exact same time.
SPEAKER_04Well, father doesn't love to give his children gifts, exactly, right? And that's like I think that is a cool picture, man. Ephesians 5 and 6 talks about the marriage literally preaches the gospel to creation. Yeah, right? Like that's the beautiful picture that God is giving to Adam. And so I think that there is some time intention and design in that. But the the reason we ask that, and just in case you didn't your brain doesn't think this way, uh, is God says it's not good that man would be alone. So the question is then, is God creating something bad by creating Adam first? I'd say emphatically the answer is no. Right? There's not there's not some issue there in God's ordering. God has a design in that, uh, and it's centered on these things that God is gonna order all of creation around, which I think is super, super cool. We talked a little bit then about the the name of Eden. Right? The name of the garden itself. Maybe do you want to take a stab at just giving us uh your running definition you used in the sermon?
SPEAKER_03I use the word delight because I try to I try to make things dumb like myself. So I try to I try to dumb things down. Now there's robust commentaries you can read on this, and a lot of uh Hebrew experts that have tried to define this, and I will say admittedly it's tricky for multiple different reasons, but but there's varying levels and spectrum of how to define that word. I think the most frequently used and simple way to bring it back together is that theme of delight. And and and at the core of Eden, I think that's what you're seeing is it's a place of delight, it's a place of goodness. And and that's why I tried to bring that together uh in my sermon on Sunday was pointing out that this is a reflection of God's delight in us as well, that he gave Adam and Eve a place to thrive in. Like he did not deprive them, he gave them everything they needed and more, because he delighted in them and he wanted them to delight in him and the creation that he then uh gave them to steward. So that was the word, right or wrong I used, Corbin. Uh I know there's some other words, if you want to put some color to that, some other thoughts out there, there's other things.
SPEAKER_04There's a whole lot, I mean, the the word is used. So Hebrew is weird because Hebrew has a lot to do with like root words and how words are developed and words are used in different ways over different amounts of time, but there are a couple that are thrown as things like delicate, right? As Merueden. Um there's uh we saw in we talked about this before the podcast, there's one that's I think it's really interesting. It's uh Sarah is talking to I think it's to the angels, um, or maybe it's to her servants. Whenever God says that she's going to have children, maybe it's I can't even it might be to God. I don't have it in front of me.
SPEAKER_03God, yeah, because God catches her laughing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But he's she says, like, will I, Sarah, as an old woman, will I have pleasure with my husband? Like, will I have like sexual ecstasy again? And that's gonna cost me to have a kid. And it's that same word that's a word that's being translated. And so it's this idea of like, does it mean like ecstasy or like delight in like this intense sense? I think that there's all things that kind of contribute to, I think delight is probably the best rendering that we have, but there there is this big and deep picture of like the enormity of of intense like love and affection that God has for his creation. Right, and that's why God does it, right? God doesn't need creation, but he chooses to create it because he wants to know it and he wants to be among it, and he wants to love it.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think that word delight then associated then to your point with sexual ecstasy that was being used there with Abraham and Sarah. I think that's a great picture, though, in that sense, where once again, that was a gift, a delightful gift of sex that's given to Adam and Eve in Eden, like that's given there, and we'll talk more about that next week. Yes, exactly. But it just wants even again, even that the gift of sexuality. That that was a gift of delight that was given by God and for God and for the good of mankind for us to understand and operate in the way that He designed it, which I'll be next to.
SPEAKER_04When we talk about like sexual pleasure and stuff like that, I know in God's design for marriage, like it's a good, God-honoring, like I mean, just natural, natural designed thing, right? And it reflects, like, even not in the same way, right? But God's love towards creation. There are there are theologians that have written about um I I I actually don't know a ton about these theologians, so don't hear this as an endorsement, but they've written about things like the erotic love of God. Now, yeah, it's a little different than what we talk about when we mean that, but there is there's a lot written in the case.
SPEAKER_01Put in David Crowder to do uh shame just a sloppy wet kiss. That's a that's a whole nother level.
SPEAKER_04That's a whole nother level. I think talking, and I think from my understanding, a lot of that it has to do with the way that God like longs for relationship with us and stuff. But I I really I I'd have to read it and then so don't don't take that as an endorsement. Maybe that's reticle and I'm crazy, but fire it off the hip.
SPEAKER_00I even heard some people talk about this early part of like Eden pre-fall, like even like the sunsets and all the other things that we enjoy now were like even better, likely in that time. And the this level of ecstasy coming from just the things you see around you and the way you interact with God's creation is at a higher level, which just kind of like we think about the things we love now post fall, yeah, and how much we enjoy them, how much better are they in a non-fall version of the world.
SPEAKER_03And it all was better because Romans explains that the whole world was subjected to futility and all of that comes every piece of it. Exactly, and that comes down as a trickle-down effect from sin in the garden. And so you're exactly right. Like the most beautiful things that we cherish uh are still a shell of what was experienced then, and then a shell of what we will experience in the new creation, in the new heavens and the new earth, um, which is such a good reminder for us that that it shows the weight of the brokenness that comes from the cosmic weight of sin, right?
SPEAKER_04I think that's like something that some sometimes because we are like big proponents and should be of like penal substitutionary terms, we think of sin so often in like these legal terms with these legal ramifications and this justification ramifications, this like my relationship with God ramification, and that's a big part of sin. It's a huge part of it. But sin is literally it's also a curse that affects everything. It does, right? Like it spreads to all the good things in creation and in life that God made as well as a consequence of our choice. Right. So not only do we have like these legal repercussions ourselves, but we've damaged the good thing God has made in sin. Right. That's that I think ties into this idea that sin always has these like deeper consequences than we even realize. Uh that I think ties in so well to the message of the sermon that you had um on on Sunday. Talk about the necessity of obedience, which we'll get to in just a little bit. But we took another kind of pit stop on the way in the sermon where we talked about Eden and the way it's it's presented in this passage. There's onyx and gold, there's four rivers flowing from a mercy seat, right? There's pictures there of maybe the blood flowing down and all this other stuff, right? Uh we talked about how Eden seems very temple-like. GK Beale, who's a famous theologian, that listeners, you can look up if you'd like, has talked a lot about this too. But what does it mean for Eden to be temple-like?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, a temple is a place where God dwells, where God dwells with his people. And it was unquestionably that it was at the temple. It was the temple. Like a temple later on was constructed uh as a part of God's redemptive plan to rebuild the true temple, which will be once again the new creation, the new heavens, the new earth. But you're seeing it on the other end of the spectrum where that that first temple that was built was built by God. Because also, once again, the word of God tells us that man can't really build a temple to contain God. God created his own temple there in the universe that he was dwelling in with mankind. And I had never seen it before, Corbin, until I was studying last week, but I talked about it because it kind of blew my mind when I talked about how Adam is created. And I've always known he's told to work and keep, you know, but I've always thought about, yeah, work hard, like we talked about last week. And that does, that is true, and that's that's an application. But I had never made that connection there to the priest, where it's the same Hebrew language that's used in Numbers chapter three to talk about the priest, they were given the exact same commandment to work and keep the temple, to go work and keep it. So that idea to me, I think it gives a new profound understanding to the text.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, that'd be worth doing.
SPEAKER_03Well, 'cause cause ultimately that's what he's creating man to do is to work and keep the temple, meaning work for him, but worship him and meet with him and spend time with him and help creation relate to him, right?
SPEAKER_04It's the function even of the temple.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and it gives that picture that we were all created ultimately to be priests. Because we always look to that in the Old Testament and the law that there were these priests, these middlemen, and then Jesus is the great high priest, and now we're a priesthood of believers, but we always think of that as a new idea in the new covenant. It's not. It was a creation idea. God made us to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_04Even in the Old Testament, man, we've talked before, and listeners, if you know me, especially if you're a student, you've heard me say say upstairs before that that the Bible is kind of a story of three gardens, right? It's a story of garden creation, right? Garden tomb, garden temple. But another way to think, I think, of the scriptures is actually it's a story of like a bunch of temples.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? Like it's a temple in Eden, a temple on Mount Sinai, right? Like a temple in the tabernacle, a temple in Jerusalem, a temple in Jesus, right? The person of Jesus, a temple in the church, a temple in Revelation, right? Like there's that imagery shows up all over the Bible. And I think it's important that we pick up on it and we notice it because there's if God is really sovereign in like designing the Bible in a way that speaks his voice to us today, which I believe he is, right? Then that means that God has intention in that. That God has something behind that that's supposed to be forming us and helping us understand like God's heart towards us and God's thoughts about creation and God's thoughts about how he relates to us. That I think is so so cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Well, we talk about Eden then uh as a temple. Maybe one of the coolest parts of this temple, one of the coolest parts of this garden, is the tree of life. Uh we didn't talk a lot about it in this sermon. I know. We kind of just mentioned Genesis even mentions it. I want to live on that other tree. That was the main point of this sermon. And it was, it was, it's the tree of the good and right, I think that you did that. Uh what the heck is the tree of life, man?
SPEAKER_03Right. So I believe it was a physical tree. Um, just like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a physical tree, because they ate physical fruit that came from it. Um so there's these two trees amongst many trees that are that are described in the Garden of Eden. We're told there's many that are pleasing to sight, but then there were these two trees by name. The tree of life, I believe, was a physical tree, but I think it also was communicating ultimately a message. It also communicated the message of eternal life, that God was giving them life, a delightful life to that point. They were in Eden, life full of abundance, and God's desire is for them to remain and abide in that life and have that for eternity. But then when sin comes and they eat from the tree they're not supposed to, they actually are kicked out, away from that tree of life.
SPEAKER_04That's just they can't eat from it.
SPEAKER_03Exactly, because God did not want them to remain in that broken state that came from there. Instead, that tree comes back into the picture for the redeeming.
SPEAKER_04It's a new marker of a new abundant life that God's remade and recreated.
SPEAKER_03And we will be at that tree because we've been washed. That's why I like that Revelation 22 passage I actually quoted during Lord's Supper yesterday, because it says we'll be welcomed back to that tree of life when we've been washed, when our robes have been washed clean, and we're going to be washed through the blood of Jesus, but then we're welcomed back into the garden to be near that tree and we'll remain in that eternal life.
SPEAKER_04The phrase tree of life shows up a very small number of times. It's it's in Genesis 2 and 3 here. Yep, Revelation 2 and 22. And then weirdly, it also shows up in Proverbs like 13 and 15 as this example of like what is good and right about someone, which I think is I think it's I think it's talking about lady wisdom, if I'm remembering rightly. Um so it is, it's it's such a cool I don't metaphor is the wrong word because it is a physical tree, but God has some symbolism involving it, I think. And that's that's that's something that we can look for in so many places in scriptures that God uses real physical objects and stories to also tell like these symbolic, like deep, like thematic stories in scripture. Right. And there's this picture of abundance that's that's marked by God's presence with us that will return when we're redeemed and renewed, and we're able to be in the presence of the tree of life again. Um and there's so many good resources out there online, and I don't I try not to recommend too many things on the podcast. Uh the Bible project, which I know some people have mixed feelings about, uh, but they have an excellent video on the tree of life. When they when they did like a rebrand, I think it was like two or three years ago, they did like it's this beautiful anime, like it gets me amped up about like what creation was and what it will be that I think is really cool. And it also has this picture of like Jesus redeeming creation so that the tree of life can bloom again. It's cool. Um okay, so that's one tree. We also talked about another tree. Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What's going on there? What is what is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, another tree, another physical tree. It was the tree of testing, is really where I tried to land on that. That it was a tree of testing that Adam is told, don't eat from this or you're gonna die. Um and we talked about that of really what's what's the purpose, and and to me, I think it's multifaceted of why it's there. I do think one, it is a declaration that he is God. I think God is establishing that, that he is giving this rule ultimately as a test of you, the creation, will be subordinate to the creator. He's for you, he's not against you, but he also is not you. He's God. And so creating that does you know create that that uh understanding, if you will, that that he is the one that gets to determine what is good and right and what is what is right and wrong. So I think some of that is the declaration of him of who he is, but ultimately it's a testing of will you trust him into this relationship? Yeah, um, will you will you take him at his word that he really knows what is good and evil and what is right and evil.
SPEAKER_04Look at everything I've given you. Like will you just trust me?
SPEAKER_03Just trust me, and which is interesting is we always say, you know, in the New Testament it's all about faith, because without faith it's impossible to please God. But really, you see it all the way back to Genesis, because right there, this was a test of his faith. You know, will you take me at my word that I've said these things are good, live with the good, live in the delightful. And instead, of course, as we all know, Adam did not have that faith and he and he disobeyed.
SPEAKER_04So well, I think there's an important uh maybe caveats on where but disclaimer there that I think sometimes we can hear that language of like, I have to show you that I'm and we can say, like, that sounds like God's being really controlling and weird and prideful. But that's because you gotta keep in mind, first of all, pre-fall, sin's not on the scene. Yeah, right? Like it's not like we we put some baggage on that because of like if someone that wasn't God did that test, we'd be like rightfully like, who the heck are you, dude? That's kind of insane. But God has the right to say those things because they're true about himself. They are right, like that's that's something that we miss, I think, sometimes in the sovereignty and the transcendence of God, is that because God is sovereign, he's transcendent, he's set apart, he's holy. Right, God is able to say these things about himself and say, Hey, you need to follow my decrees and my ways because they're actually good. Exactly. Right? And it's not God like being selfish in that or or or looking out for his own interests instead of ours. God's just right.
SPEAKER_03He is. Well, and that's the thing, even with a sinless Adam, he still lacks the uh the robust moral judgment that God Almighty does. The infinite triune God who always has been and always will be a creation, even a sinless creation, an atom, that does not put him on equal playing ground of getting to determine what is morally right and wrong and what is what is pure and just. And so I think it is a declaration of God being uniquely qualified as the one who is holy and perfect and blameless to determine what is right and wrong and what is morally right and righteous and wrong, because he is the judge at the end of the day. He is the one qualified, he's the perfect judge. Um, and so that tree I think does establish that truth that that is who he is. Um and he says, I'm for you though, to your point. It's not a punitive thing, it's it's just a declaration of I know more than you, also. Like I do know more than you. Yes.
SPEAKER_04This is what Christian is.
SPEAKER_03It's no different than a father with a kid in a sense. It is different, but I will say in a in a uh metaphorical way, when a father is telling their children to trust them at their word on something that that father's for their child, they give these rules for their child for their good, they're flourishing, but the child cannot understand everything that the father really knows. The father is asking the child, trust me, I I really do love you. I'm for you. These this is for your own good.
SPEAKER_04And those fathers, like here's an important piece of that is that like our fathers often do, unless we I mean, you know, maybe that's not true in every case. There are broken father-son relationships here in creation today, but in a healthy father-son relationship, the father provides them ways that show the the the son or the daughter that they can trust that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, right?
SPEAKER_04Like it it is Genesis 2 not an account, right, of every reason that Adam has to trust that this command is good. Yes, right? It's like he's about to give him a wife, right? He's given him purpose and dominion over all of creation.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right. Look at everything I've given you. Look at this land I call delight that you get to live in with me forever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And yet, and yet we still disobey, right?
SPEAKER_03That's how we are, man.
SPEAKER_04It hurts, man. It hurts. Um that's so tough. Well, I think that ties in well to the kind of what the point, I guess, of your sermon was. Uh why does God give us commandments in the first place? Why does God give us rules?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right, quote unquote.
SPEAKER_03I think it's primarily twofold. It's for our good and for God's glory. Um, I think I think it's for those things. In first John 5, 3, we're told that the commandments of God are not burdensome. And so the things that he gives us are ultimately for good, for us and for those that are around us. He's wanting to bless us, even in a broken world where we're given commandments that are tough, you know, that sometimes things are not easy to obey in because we're going against the ways of the world. It's still for our good, and it's for the good of those that will be around us, but it's also for the glory of God because we're doing what he knows is right, and we trust him at his word. Um, but obedience is ultimately an act of worship. I really do believe that. Um, we don't obey to earn God's favor. We obey in response to the favor he's already given us, that we are obeying as an act of worship. That's why Paul talks about to present your bodies as a living sacrifice to the Lord. He says this is your spiritual act of worship. So God doesn't want me just to sing a song, he wants me to just do what he says, like to obey him, to offer all that I am, to obey and trust him, that he is for me, he's not against me. And in those areas where it's difficult, which happens to us every single day, because obedience is not easy either, and Jesus demonstrated that himself. It's not easy to obey. Um, but when we lean in on faith, we find out that his will is perfect and and it is good. Um, and when we can't see it in the moments, we're actually exercising faith in his goodness. Where even when we can't really see it yet, we're saying, God, I take you at your word, and he says, Thank you. That's what I want, is I just want you to trust me at my word.
SPEAKER_04That's good. I think it's it's always really insightful. People say like the first thing is pride, right? That it's people want to be like God. And in a sense, it it's really it's worshiplessness. Yeah. Right? It's like I I know who God is, but I'm not gonna respond to God. And all this abundance that we've just talked about, He's given to me with with obedience, because I think like may maybe I can figure this out a little bit better. Um I think another another really important kind of facet of obedience and God's design for things like commands, it's almost oxymoronic, it's freedom. Right? Like God's design for us is Christian freedom. There's a couple of very famous pastors that have talked a lot about this really 10, maybe 10, 20 years ago. Mostly John Piper is a famous example of this. Um but this idea that like obedience is freedom because sin is bondage, right? That's what the Bible talks about. Sin is sin, sin is chains, it's slavery, it's this thing of like, look, I'm free to do these things that I'm trapped in, right? That I can't stop, that I can't pull away from, right? Uh, but real obedience says, like, no, like the ways of God don't keep us stuck.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think that's so cool. I think it's powerful, man.
SPEAKER_03The Christian life is the most freeing life in the world. It really is a life of liberty. And and God does what he instructs us to do, truly is for our good. Um, and I think that's what we also miss is how much liberty he really gives us to make everyday decisions. Even you see with Adam right there, he's given him a decision. He really is.
SPEAKER_04A lot of ways to honor God and get into that.
SPEAKER_03And he just told him to work the land. Like he didn't say, like, you gotta go start planting this crop and do this and that. He gave him a lot of liberty there. He just said, Go do these things that you were created to do.
SPEAKER_04That's an insight into the will of God, I think, in some sense. Like, I think sometimes we and that the Puritans are misrepresented a lot in media. They're talked about as like these boring grab people. They're like some of the most joyful people ever, if you look at what they've written. But we we kind of have this idea that like Christianity is this puritanical, right? Like, I must figure out the exact will of God and be very boring as I accomplish it. And that's not God's design. No, right? Like, what if you read, and it's that's such like a common, I think, criticism of Christianity is that like I have to have these rules and structure, otherwise, like, and that's why people you know follow Jesus, right? And the reality is like that's such a misunderstanding of what what Jesus is all about and what Christianity is all about. That it's that these these designs and rules are not meant to be this rigid structure of earning my way up to God, right? Right, but it's this this this pat this green pasture, yeah, right, that God's making us sit down and saying, This is good for you.
SPEAKER_03And I think if we're all being honest as we are processing this too, when we like Adam, we've because we are Adam, we've all done this, when we know what God really wants us to do, as revealed in scripture or through conviction of the Holy Spirit, and we know it and we don't do it, and we do the opposite for a season in our life, which we all could go down the list where we've walked in the rebellion. I would just ask you, Christian, how did that season go for you? Did you did it did it really lead to life for you? Was it good for you? Was it helpful for you? Are you happy you went through that season? I think we all, myself included, say, I wish I had listened to God before that, because that that did cause some damage. And praise God, He's redeemed it through faith and God's now turned it into a testimony. But at the end of the day, those are things that God doesn't want us to have in our lives. And that's where that faith statement, that faith has to come from us of God, I'm trusting you that you are trying to help me avoid a wreck. And when we don't trust him and we go blatantly the opposite direction, we find wreckage. I mean, at the end of the day, that's what sin does in our lives is it it does steal, kill, and destroy. Um, and so I think for all of us too, if we're just looking at a life experience, or even for the unbeliever, if there is an unbeliever listening to me, if you're living your life opposite of the will that God would have for you, as revealed in scripture, to your understanding and certain things, I would just ask, how's it going for you? Like, are there pain points for you in those areas? Because most likely that that stuff does come when we go the opposite of what God wants for us, it brings pain. And God's trying to bring delight to go back to that word. He He doesn't want that pain in our lives.
SPEAKER_04We I I think I've talked about this a couple times. Uh we recently and students went through this series on Hosea. Uh we talked all about idols and all about how, like, two two pieces of truth, right? One, like, idols exploit us, right? Like, that's their goal, right? Their goal is that idols would trick us into seeking them out to give us the things that God can give us when they can't give those things to us. And they they leave us trapped, they leave us feeling stuck. But the other piece of good news, and hear this, right, is not just for non-believers, like I know even me hearing that sermon, I'm like, man, there are things in my life that like I need to apply this to. Right? There are the places in my life where I'm living in sin, right? And I I think every Christian that's like honest with themselves as they're listening, they're gonna say, hey, there's there are places here that like this kind of message is speaking to. Is the good news is that God responds to the faithlessness of his people, not with like abandonment, but with adoption. Exactly. Right? With like I'm gonna redeem you, come back home. Right? Like the story of Jose Ango. Yeah. And I think that's so powerful, man. And I think we could feel we could feel stuck in shame when we get stuck in these things.
SPEAKER_03And it's I think it's worth noting too for anybody that's listening that we all are all we all are disobeying. Like I'm disobeying. There's things in my life unquestionably. I'm sinning today. There's things, and what actually scripture shows is sometimes we sin and disobey, and we don't even know we're sinning or disobeying. Yeah. That's why David says, search me to the Lord. He says, Revealing, help me. Yes. He says, Please show me the things I don't even know about. And and we sin against God more frequently than we really want to admit. Um, because a lot of things we sin in, and lots of times it's even at our subconscious level where we're just doing it naturally from our flesh, and we don't even know we're doing it in our thought patterns or our actions or our habits. And all that being said, I say that not to shame someone, but to hopefully bring a spotlight to God's goodness and grace. Because he sees all those things, he sees the secret things, and yet he's still calling us and he's saying, I love you, I love you, and I've already forgiven you in Christ, and I I still have plans to hey, will you go down this pathway instead? So the picture of God is not one that it should come across as uh mean-spirited, which is usually how people think of when they think about rules. Right? Yes, exactly. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Uh Flanagram Cotter has a famous story that like we think of God sometimes as a God that gives and takes turkeys away, uh-huh. Right? That like if I disobey God's gonna take away this. There's a whole short story. So that's a niche reference. So I forgive me for that. That's good. But uh I do think it's it's it is like we we view God as like this vindictive guy that's like looking to just get us. Yeah, let's just knock God's heart towards us, you know.
SPEAKER_03The best example of that is what's known as common grace, which I know you know this, but common grace differentiated from saving grace, meaning the common grace is what all of mankind is enjoying right now, like everyone is lost people right now. How do you know God is loving and good? There are lost people that will curse God with their mouth today and say he doesn't exist, and and yet he's not smiting them right now. They're just breathing his air.
SPEAKER_04Many of them are wealthy, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and they they're breathing his air, having sex, enjoying food, doing all the things of the world. And he's patient with them, he's loving to them and still calling them, you know, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And so God is so kind. I think that's just so missed out there. Is the common grace that's bestowed on this whole universe is evidence of God's grace and loving kindness towards our disobedience. Because a lot of those people never repent and turn to the Lord, yet He gave them all that time on this earth and all of that common grace, which is just a reflection of his goodness.
SPEAKER_04Such a good thought. Well, we could talk about this, I think, forever and ever and ever, really. It gets me amped. Uh, but I know that we had a few more really awesome user-submitted questions that maybe didn't have a ton to do with stuff that I come up with for the podcast today. So I'm gonna punt to Steven. Yes. Steven's gonna get us a couple of those awesome questions, yeah?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. This one maybe we can go through pretty quickly. Um the difference between Yahweh and Jehovah. So, why did Yahweh get popular in the 1800s? And um, why did everyone say Yahweh as the correct pronunciation before uh or Jehovah, Jehovah as a correct pronunciation before Yahweh?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I would love to jump on this just because um I maybe Hebrew is just fresher for me. I'll say please take the lead, my friend. Uh Yahweh is is a is a rendering of a Hebrew word. Uh Hebrew words don't have vowels, and in the 1300s, Jehovah was like the translation that English speakers used for the same word, Yahweh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because of their understanding of vowels and Latin, and they combine some vowels and letters, because it's it's it's Y uh uh Y W H or whatever it is, uh or YHW, whatever it is. Uh I'm blanking on the the order now as I say that. And I don't have the Hebrew in front of me. But the yeah Jonathan's looking it up. No, I'm having to like type it.
SPEAKER_02It's it's Y W. Hold on. Yeah. I'll f I'll find that out. It's why it's Y's and W's and H's.
SPEAKER_04Forget the order. It's it's Yoh. And so it sounds like Jehovah, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Or you could more accurately under Yahweh. Right. Right? Because the way that uh the way that you speak the those consonants in Hebrew, it just happens to like that that is the more accurate way. In the same way, like if I said uh gracias or gracias, right? Like that's that's technically the same word in Spanish. Right. Right? It's just a bad way of pronouncing it. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and expound on that, you're doing a great job, Corinne. I better give you this other layup since you uh uh alluded to the abbreviation, which I I typed it out so I could see it. It is Y-H-W-H. Which I was like, all those letters don't really. But give tell them why. Why was it abbreviated that way in that sense?
SPEAKER_04Uh well, uh for for one, you you're not supposed to say the name of God. Yeah, yeah. There you go.
SPEAKER_03That's what I wanted, I wanted you to point out.
SPEAKER_04And and so it's really all of Hebrew is modeled after like religious observance. That sounds weird to say, because like we have like we use English and we shape it into like our Christianity and our spirituality. But but Hebrew is so linked to the Jewish people and this faith of Yahweh worshippers that their language is like formed around. It's so interesting. I I had a professor at True Seminary where I attended a seminary, and he just got me so amped about all this stuff. Um and uh just this idea that like there's such a deep reverence for the name of God. Yes, and they don't want to take that name in vain, that they'll they'll translate it in other ways, or they'll say Hashem, the name is what it means. Um when they're reading the text, so then the text will be there, it'll be Yahweh, it'll be the name of God, but they'll say instead Hashem or Adonai, Lord. Yes, right? And so when you see the Lord, all caps in your Bible, right? It's that's the name of God, and we're kind of paying homage or honor to that in the same way.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I think that's so good that you you mentioned that, Corbin, because I think I know this is a rabbit trail, maybe a little bit from the the question, but I think it's worth to worth establishing that reverence word you use there. Because I think we miss that oftentimes in the English vernacular. And I'm not saying we have to start following all these Jewish rules. I think we can call him the Lord God and we can call upon his name. But at the same time, what was established there within Judaism was that divine reverence towards his name and who he is, which even gets back to that other point of just him being the creator of the larger discussion and him being the one who made us and that reverence that was meant to be had there. Yes, and it was being established there in the garden where once again he's welcoming man into his presence, he wants man, but there is also that understanding of I'm God, and you're not gonna be able to grant it. Yes, I'm God in vain.
SPEAKER_04I think that should be our heart, and that is like it is rightly identified that like we shouldn't be taking the name of God in vain. Yes, and that's that motivates this entire discussion, right? Which kind of goes to the umpteenth ext extreme with Fair Saic Judaism and all. this other stuff. But it is like I think so often we we belittle the belittles, maybe we minimize taking the name of God in vain. Not just like, oh I I said the J word or the G word when I shouldn't have, right? But it's like we we we say that things were of God when they're not of God, right? Or we we you know say like, oh I've been praying about this. You know, we lie about like our prayer life. Right. Like there's all these different ways that we can I think take the name of God in vain that are that are really like it's a warning to us.
SPEAKER_03Well and even just encouraging like our kids as I say this as a parent. It was fresh in my mind as you were talking a few days ago I was walking in the neighborhood with one of my kids and we were going down the street go play some basketball. And I heard some other kids, they were all there, just neighborhood kids, good kids. I'm not trying to villainize them but they're like talking like little kids and they're probably 10, 11 years old and I just hear one of the kids just scream, oh my freaking and he said the Lord's name in in vain and he's like screaming at this other kid.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. That sounds weird to say but when I was in fifth grade I swore like a sailor.
SPEAKER_03Exactly well I'm glad he said freaking but but but but he but he said the Lord's name in vain and I heard that and and to that point actually to your point you're even making right now, most people would not even notice that because because he didn't go for the F bomb. Yeah but he went for the G bomb and that's kind of my point and where where and that's the bigger bomb. That's the bigger and that is the bigger bomb. And honestly that was a teaching point I then even had on as I was walking with my son I just said hey just so you know buddy we don't talk like that and here's why because it's one of those things where I just wanted him to understand like that name needs to be revered. You don't have to be scared to call upon the name of God. We're called to call upon him but but we don't make his name small because he is not small. And and so I think there's there's some of that I think that lack of reverence and respect that it's just kind of gotten into us I think and I say that personally as well that maybe we miss that but it's a good question that listeners asking Steven because they're asking in regards to what do these names even mean and and why does it matter.
SPEAKER_04It matters he's God so he's revealing himself to us to get back to the original original question the reason it changed is because Hebrew scholars said hey this is probably a more accurate rendering especially in the last like what it started in the eight the 18900s but especially the last 50 years or so you probably hear a lot more about the word Yahweh instead of Jehovah. But there they are just different renderings of the same name there's not a different meaning there's not really even confusion about what the word is it's just how to say it because Hebrew ancient Hebrew is a dead language. Yes well said by the way those wondering it is YH W H, also known as the tetragrammaton yeah it's tetragrammaton and it's it's I should know it's been too long since I've rushed on my Hebrew it's it's Yold oh gosh I really got it come on. No I'm not gonna do all that because I'm gonna say something wrong and miscarriage just becoming an old pastor like us. It happens very quickly it happens very quickly that's the beauty of young clouding churches that we've been in in classes recently enough but I'm gonna I I want to survey a Hebrew and Greek class soon. Yeah I think just because it'd be good to brush up use it or lose it. That's right my Bill Mounts is online for free I'm serious. I'm serious really even for non-seminary grads it's it's very accessible stuff. Nice he would he loves to teach people it's cool.
SPEAKER_00Shameless plug look it up all right here we go so to what extent is the authority or dominion that uh God hands over to us and does this mean that we have authority over Satan?
SPEAKER_03Good question. So all authority that we have is only borrowed. I will start there God has all authority over heaven earth and under the earth and he has all authority God has established authority systems here in this world for the prosperity of mankind and the good of good of society. The authority we carry we're in 1 John 4 we're told he who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. So then authority that I carry the only authority I have is the Spirit of God within me. That's that's the authority the power comes from him. It doesn't come from Jonathan it's it's it's God. And so and the authority positional authority we carry this gets in the creation part which I'm guessing where the question was to exercise dominion that was an authority given to us as mankind to steward the creation and to develop it cultivate it bring resources and good that will come from the land that is an authority given I believe by God to humanity. That's why we're at the top of the pyramid that's why we're at the top of the food chain. It's not because we got there or we got lucky um it's because God placed us there that we are over the creation. So that authority though was given to us I always say it's borrowed by God because God gave that to us. We didn't like fight to give that the humanity was given that authority over this creation. Now when it comes to the devil and all those things that's what I'm talking about is it's spiritual authority that comes once again through God, through the spirit of God living in us. We actually have no in our own flesh, we have no power or authority over Satan. We cannot overcome him on our own. That's why Paul always says you're either a slave to God or you're a slave to your sin because ultimately if you're not in Christ he has you he has your number um that's why Jesus also calls Satan the ruler of the world because Satan is ruling and reigning on this earth of the fleshly sense and he's wreaking havoc. Jesus has now redeemed us through his body and blood and we can receive his spirit to regain authority over the enemy and over these things. But the enemy's still at work. So I don't know I know it's a lot of preacher talk there to say at the end of the day the only authority we have it's not through our own flesh and blood is through the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God that He's put in us and and and that's that's how we have in a sense is is quite a bit of authority transitively right and Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. But it's handed to us. That's what I'm trying to get at because I do and this is where maybe it's me just going on a rabbit trail here. I think sometimes we try to act like we're very mighty in our own flesh.
SPEAKER_04Like we try to act like the point of Christianity is the authority and victory you might have heard this that's what I'm getting at. There are there are traditions that are thriving in modern Christianity that Christianity is centered upon authority it's centered upon victory it's centered upon deliverance etc that are like biblical concepts that then are are used in ways that are not biblical.
SPEAKER_03A common word is anointing is talked about in especially Pentecostal circles uh in arch church circles uh is is talked about maybe it's um I don't want to say unbiblical because I'm not trying to like really lob rock it gets there quickly it doesn't have to be because to your point we have a lot of authority that's given by God not not by ourselves but in that sense we also God is not our puppet either like we don't have authority things to God that's my point in the way that like you don't get to tell God like what he's going to sometimes we talk about prayer in some unbiblical ways.
SPEAKER_04Yes and the book of Titus says that you should declare these things with all authority and stuff like that but it's talking about like to other believers that we should be declaring good doctrine and things like that. And sometimes we take some some verses out of context to say some things that maybe aren't biblical.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's that's what I'm trying to get at the heart of this because I don't have I can't make God do what I want him to do. He's still God and I'm under his authority. He's given me authority through the power of Jesus Christ through the Spirit of God who lives in me. But at the same time to your point Corbin that's what I was trying to allude to is a lot of those movements where it troubles me because I think Christians are set up for failure where now they think they're Superman and they get to tell God what to do and he'll just do whatever you tell him to do all the time. And if you just hard enough well and Jesus also who has all authority and he walked in in perfect relationship he and the father are one he also said Lord let your will be done and not my own so he submitted to the authority that that really was not actually what he was shooting for in that moment in his flesh is what it appears. And so to that point I don't know if that fully answers the question Stephen but but we don't have to fear the principalities and works of this world even though Paul does say that's our greatest enemy is not flesh and blood, but those principalities and spiritual forces.
SPEAKER_04They can't have stronghold in you if you're a believer and I'll say alongside this it's also true like Jesus has like faith size of mustard seed right you can move mountains right but but I would say that it's important that we understand when Jesus is talking about prayer in that way, he's saying that if you have real like genuine like deep powerful saving faith, your prayers are going to begin to line up with the will of God. Yes, that's good. Right? So what it means to pray in the spirit in that way is to pray like like with groanings too deep forwards God would you control the desires of my heart so that as I pray like I'd be praying your will.
SPEAKER_03Yeah right as I pray your will things would happen you know but I will say this and this might be too personal but I have felt spiritual oppression at times um in tangible ways. Yeah uh dreams yeah like that's warfare yeah it's it's demonic devastating dreams I've I've woken up and it doesn't happen all the time I'm not trying to sound weird but it's happened a few times in my life where I've woken up and I've just felt a pressure on me and I've prayed in those moments and it goes away. It goes away and so there's also that side too where I say that to say that that wasn't me that like made that stop. It's God but but that was God's will also to conquer in that moment too so those are things that I think we don't talk about enough. I don't either because you then you'll sound like a spiritual wacko if you start talking about these things too much. But to your point Corbin there's I think a spectrum there's a spectrum there of there's the exploitation of these things and then there's on the other side the ignorance of these things where we just say none of there's none of it there.
SPEAKER_04We make Christianity about experience about feelings sometimes to an unhealthy degree and that it can be really flashy and I think that's that's the danger of like unbiblically talking about these things like authority and and declaration and deliverance and all these things that like there are biblical concepts of yeah anointing is a big one right but just I think being really cautious like let's not go beyond what the Bible affirms.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00We'll hit one more okay so I've had some atheist friends ask me why God would even create the know tree of knowledge of good and evil in the first place. Yeah. What do I say to them? Also how does it glorify God for us to be tested only to ultimately go through suffering? To only be tested to excuse me to be tested but so basically why would God test us when he knows that we're gonna fail and it'll end up leading to suffering.
SPEAKER_03That's a good question. These are deep ones the the first one on the tree I feel like we already kind of answered that to it of why but the suffering part of the why of why did he put it there if he knew it wasn't going to work out. Yeah which which is a great point that we haven't really talked about yet because in the book of Ephesians we're told before the foundation of the world Jesus Christ was the solution. So before the establishment of Eden God knew in his foreknowledge I do believe believe that in his sovereignty he understood what he was doing and also what was going to happen afterwards that Adam would sin and then he would send the new Adam in Jesus Christ to redeem. I believe that was God in his perfect sovereignty understood where all this was going. Yep so then the question is well why even bother with all of it I don't think it was a divine game he's playing I think it was done out of love that that it's a declaration of his love for us that he wants us so much in relationship with him and he cares about that of love and yes he will receive glory in that love it will bring glory and honor to himself as the creator but also the redeemer of us but he did these things in relationship he doesn't need us but he wanted us we kind of talked about that a little bit with the Genesis one uh idea and so I think yes did he know all this was going to happen yeah I believe that um why did he do it? I think because he loves us and he wanted us and he knew even with our own failure that was gonna happen he would redeem us and then he would have his perfect will done through us. So I think there's love in there. Then you might say the second part of that question was that what if he knows there's gonna be suffering that comes through all of that that's a great question. This gets into the whole more the bigger uh question of just suffering as a whole the whole argument of the odyssey and I think the suffering argument's tough because how's he going to get there from A to Z? Yeah there's gonna be a lot of pain like that's that's a reality there. There's gonna be a lot of pain and that's really what the Bible describes as pain after pain after pain and then we're dealing with that pain too. A couple things I'd say to that one we trust him with that pain because he entered into that pain with through Jesus Christ. Jesus suffered so how can the fullness of the human experience he loves me if if this he knew all this was going to happen anyway. Well he walked in it himself Jesus Christ put on flesh and he entered that pain and he went through the sufferings of this broken world with us. He also carries us through that pain. Now we have relationship restored with him and he helps us he redeems that pain he actually brings good from it and then he perfects us in that pain. Because I think that's a lot of it too that we miss is that he is actually growing us and maturing us and preparing us for all that is to come through this. And one day he removes the pain. The pain will be gone and this is where I think sometimes it's hard in our lives because life is hard and it's harder for some people and some people go through a lot of suffering and they're thinking this seems very cruel it is hard and I'll never negate that but I will also remind you this is not the end of your story. And and the life we endure say you live 90 years of hard life which some people do on this earth of really hard life our life on this earth is a blink in the spectrum of eternity and and in the spectrum of eternity you will be without pain and without suffering. That is the new creation in Revelation 21 and 22 and we're told all the tears will be wiped away by God himself so there won't even be tears anymore. So sometimes we have to contextualize the pain understanding the bigger picture what God is accomplishing and he's gonna give us that life of delight which is really his desire for all of us in love. That's what he wants for us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and ultimately I mean I when it comes to talking with atheist friends like at some point you explain all that stuff to them right and you kind of get a catch one too but at the end of the day you gotta believe in something right and if if you're gonna think of this idea of eternity and whether or not we go to dust and just nothing or if we go like we believe where it's either heaven or hell wouldn't you rather be on the side of of like heaven and like believe in something outside of just a bunch of dust?
SPEAKER_04Yeah I and I think also maybe to to reframe this question I think this question comes from a misunderstanding of like what Christianity is claiming about God. Like Christianity is not claiming that God is subject to our moral judgments. Christianity is claiming that God is perfect and good. That's where we start. And so we start with God is perfect and good his decisions are right right and then we operate from there and we say so therefore I'm not judging God based upon this idea of did God you know if God knew I was going to suffer why did God place the it's hey we know that God is good and and we know that we we can know God is good because while there is unjust suffering in the world no one suffered more unjustly than God on the cross. Exactly right felt the weight of the sin of the world made it a way that all people no matter the unjustice of their suffering could be brought to right relationship with it with him again through the work of his son. Right that even we talk about like even people in remote islands that have never heard of it like that there is a moral law and a moral fabric that Romans talks about that says that hey even these people can realize something's wrong and I need a savior and that God uses those things to draw people to himself.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Right and so I think sometimes we we talk about the tree of the garden and we talk about sin and we say that therefore that means that God it's God's fault. And the Bible definitely does not make it no it's never his fault.
SPEAKER_03And I think and I think hopefully most people would hear that that it's not his fault where people I think struggle with this question both in Christian circles and outside the Christian circles is even if it's not his fault, if he knew it was all going to happen, why would he let it play out this way? And that is a tough question I'll admit and this gets into God's plan and this gets into the sovereignty of God which is an uncomfortable topic but but there's that Deuteronomy 2929 verse I I I've referenced sometimes that the secret things belong to the Lord. And sometimes we're never going to fully understand the vision, the plan, all of these things. We get to see the story as revealed to us. So but motivation that behind all this I still believe is love. I believe that is the motivating cause of why then why would he go through all this love. He loves you that much like he created you're a love story and creation he's telling a redemption story in creation he knew that's right for that he knew you'd he knew we'd all fall and he still loved us and then he knew that he would find the way he already had the way decided how to redeem us so that we could walk in his love. It's all motivated by love and ultimately through his love goodness for us because we will receive all that God designed there and more of that delight and that's a gift from God and for us that we get to enjoy and it's coming but on this side it's thorns and thistles baby and we'll talk about that in Genesis three.
SPEAKER_04It's it's hard right now the hard part that that we wrestle with and I'll I'll wrap with this because I know we're running a little is this idea that like God's response to suffering isn't just like I'll make it end. It says in the meantime like here's here's the hard news like pick up your cross and follow me. Yep exactly right right like God's design is not that you would live a painless life right but that you would be redeemed to a a this beautiful picture of life with God in eternity through what he accomplishes even though he's not the author of your suffering. What he accomplishes in your suffering because he's sovereign and because he's good and because he's telling this this beautiful story of redemption and restoration and all of creation that I think is so good.
SPEAKER_03That's good.
SPEAKER_04Well listener man I I I thank you guys so much for for tuning in to the Citizen ATX podcast this week. I ask that you would continue to submit some really good really hard questions for us to engage with and answer. We'll be back next week talking all about marriage I believe which is going to be so exciting. It's a picture of the gospel being preached to creation so we hope that you will continue to join us week in and week out as we discuss these buildings on our foundations. See you next time this is an ATX podcast