Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: Satan's Punishment
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Who is this serpent that tricks Eve? What even is a serpent? Did they have legs before the punishment? These and so many other questions are answered on today's episode. Join Nathan, Jonathan, and Stephen as they discuss Satan's punishment and how it plays out in our interactions with Satan today.
Hello and welcome everyone to the Citizen ATX Podcast and our series Building on Foundations as we take a deeper dive into our foundation series. We're teaching on Sundays, looking at the first three chapters of Genesis. My name is Nathan Wood, and I am not Corbin Smith, who is your typical host. Corbin is currently on his way to Guatemala for a mission trip, so make sure we'll be praying for him. And I'm stepping in to host uh today. And I gotta be honest, it feels good. A lot of power, a lot of construction. Strong, strong start, Nathan. Uh and then joining me today, uh our pastor and fearless leader, Dr. Jonathan Spencer.
SPEAKER_00Howdy, Nathan.
SPEAKER_01Hey, hey. And then up uh last but certainly not least, we have Stephen Vaughn uh with us as well.
SPEAKER_03Hello.
SPEAKER_01Uh excited to get into it. You know, this last Sunday we looked at Genesis chapter 3, verses 14 and 15, dealing with the curse of Satan. Uh and Jonathan, you did a great job of breaking all this kind of stuff down, uh, but wanted to take a look at a little bit deeper into some of the stuff that we didn't necessarily have time to get into on Sunday. So to start things off here, I'm going to read verse 14, and then I'm going to ask you a question coming off of that. So verse 14 says, Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you will go, and dust you will eat. So I have kind of two zoological questions for you here. The first is, what does God have against cattle? And number two is, does God permanently alter the anatomy of the serpent? So take it away.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's more of an indication of what he has, you know, against Satan, against the serpent, more than he has against cattle. I mean, he's he's cursing him. We're told the serpent was more crafty than the other beasts. And so now he's going to be more cursed than the other beasts as well. There's kind of a correlation there, I think, in the way it was written. Um, but yeah, I mean, obviously the God is not happy with that snake. Um at the end of the day, and whether that is a snake physically, I know that gets into that question of, you know, was it was it a reptile? What kind of reptile was this before? Clearly, the devil is speaking through some kind of serpent. We most people would suspect it was a snake, looking at that figuratively in the language. And when he's speaking that curse against it, it's indicative of what that serpent did. And now keep in mind this is seemingly a living creature that's there that Satan is speaking through. Um, and there's a curse that's placed on Satan, but then there's also, it seems, a curse placed on the actual species in a sense, right there, which gets in the question of that was it a literal change that he placed on this animal creature, or was it figurative and symbolic in language of what he said? Um, which there's two different sides, Nathan. I don't know if you would say it differently or if you have a different perspective on it, but a lot of people, commentators will look at that and they'll either one think it's literal, where that that snake had legs beforehand, and now he's saying you're going to crawl on your belly in humiliation. So that species is now carrying a curse that ties back to Satan into the garden as a consequence. Others would state that it was already, as we understand it today, on its belly, but now symbolic meaning is given behind the way it was designed to now carry that message with it that it's crawling on its belly uh as a reminder for what the devil did right there in the garden. So I I think there's room either way, whether it's literal or symbolic, but I don't know if that answers the question anything. But I think that's what the issue comes down to is what is what did he mean by it?
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think honestly, if it was me, I would probably pick both. I mean, I think both can be true, because I think it does say on your belly you will go, like you're gonna eat dust, which is an odd thing to say if it was physically already doing that. If it was physically already on its belly, then what's the point of saying you're gonna keep doing how I did the thing that I designed you to do? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. So I think you have to have the physical alteration. Although it does bring into that question, if you're Adam and Eve and you're sitting there and like you're almost like it's like wait till your dad gets home, you're like waiting on the consequence to come, you know, and you just watched a snake get turned into from having legs or potentially wild take dragons. It was flying, we don't know, right? But you see this snake that was doing something different suddenly is put down as a snake that we would know today, like that's gotta be like, oh, oh no, it's coming for us.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it also makes a lot of sense of how snakes are now treated just innately by human beings around the whole world, like whether you believe in the Bible or know the Bible or not. Most people are are already uh against snakes in general. Snakes kind of carry a bad vibe in general with humanity. Um, when you look at just how history is played out. And then even beyond that, though, this is what kind of gets the connection, though, going back to your original question. There's a snake depicted in the new heavens and new earth. I didn't bring this up in the sermon, but I just pulled it up because I thought this would be uh in alignment with the conversation. In Isaiah chapter 65, the new heavens and new earth are depicted by the prophet Isaiah. And there's a scripture there that talks about animals that then will be in conflict because of this world and the brokenness of this world, and they will also fear mankind after the flood. That's a whole nother conversation. But then there's this new harmony that's going to be restored between man and animal in the new heavens and new earth, the way that it was established there in Genesis 1, 2. But in Isaiah 65, verse 25, it says, The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, speaking of the future eternity, and lions shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food, which is really interesting because you see like a rest restorative message of animals are all going to get along and we're all going to be cool together. Oh, but those snakes, they're still going to be eating that dust. They're still snakes. Which is kind of an interesting picture. And I've read that because you could read that one of two ways. Does God then keep that curse, if you will, as a reminder on the serpent in the new heavens and new earth, as a constant reminder to the fulfillment there of this promise that that that was an eternal promise placed on that, and it'll be a constant reminder of Satan's defeat? Or was the snake made just to crawl on its belly? You know, and is it still crawling on its belly one day in the new heavens and new earth? I don't know. And it had that symbolic meaning with the message uh there that's tied with it. So it's an interesting verse. I don't know if I have a firm conviction 100% on what that's trying to say. That's partly why I didn't preach it because it also is in the rabbit trail as we're on right now. But it is interesting that it's brought back up showing a fulfillment, though, that God said, This is the way you're gonna be. And then in the new heavens and new earth, that's the way he still is, which is which is pretty wild that the serpent is on its belly eating some dust.
SPEAKER_03It also plays in, like I think of it from uh, because we were gonna talk next week about all like the man side of that, the human side of the punishment. And like Adam and Eve were kind of like a representative of us in a way where they were the ones that sinned, but it was really representative of all sin of all man, right? And all the punishment. But it's like, is that like a representative of all snakes and all of their punishment? It's like like because they didn't do anything wrong as a snake, it was just correct, it was just Satan himself, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that was uh so that that actually brings up one of the questions that was asked was basically why did God punish the creature whenever it was basically just a vessel that Satan used, as we see in the book of Revelation, uh, in order to tempt Adam and Eve. So why was the creature itself punished eternally, is what we're looking at here, whenever it was Satan who was the one who basically did the wrong?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think there's a consequence that came with sin, if you will, of punishment that came to all of creation. So I would actually take that off even beyond. While there is a curse that's being given there to the serpent, there's been a curse that's been given to all of creation, where even to that point, the livestock and all the others, they all get sick and they die. You know, they all have issues too, and all this trickles down to the impact of sin. So I wouldn't necessarily delineate those two, where I would say all of you know mankind as well as all the beasts of the field and everything, we're all living under the weight of that sin, of that curse and the penalty that comes with that. Um, that word that's spoken, the indictment towards the serpent, um, you know, that's that's according to God's sovereign will to speak specifically to that serpent. It was uniquely used um by the devil, and so God is now sending a permanent message that that goes back to ties to that point, to that uh moment in history when sin was introduced into the world through a serpent, through the devil speaking through him. And God chose to do that. I think the bigger question when we ask those questions of what's fair with God and why would he do that? I always try to stop myself and just say, well, if we really want what's fair, everybody's dead. Like I mean, really, because I think that's where a lot of the argument always comes from is that it's us trying to play justice games with a just God, and we're we're the ones that are unjust. We're we're the ones that are off. And I think we have to kind of remind ourselves of we can't we can't question his ways because it's all grace at the end of the day, that he let it live and that it's still crawling on its belly, and we're all walking in his common grace as well, that we're all breathing his air. Um and so I think it's just a a good reminder for us that it's it's hard to question him.
SPEAKER_01Well, and honestly, uh the Bible will be a lot shorter. Genesis three, they just get killed. Yeah, for beaver. And there you go. That would be fair. That's the end of it. Well, and I think also, I think even in there, you see, though, because we you talked about this, and we'll talk more about Satan here in a little bit, but you talk about how Satan, uh how he ultimately will be defeated, like how ultimately Jesus is going to return, he's gonna be cast into the lake of fire. But the Satan, the serpent gets to be in the new heavens and the new earth. Yeah, yeah. It still exists, right? The snake still exists, it is not done away with, correct. It is not destroyed. So even though it's the animal itself was like you can see this view of its body being changed, of it symbolically representing something, it's allowed to be in a perfect heaven and a perfect earth later on, which I do think is an important point to put in there as well. Um and then speaking of God's justice, because you did a great job talking about um that first point you had was about how God is just, and you talked about kind of the three subpoints that go with that. Um, but it seems like in our culture today, we have a, especially in Protestant churches uh in America, we have a lot of emphasis on God's love, uh, and a lot of times very little emphasis on God's justice, but God is both. He is perfectly just and he is perfectly loving and kind. Why are they both necessary together? And then after that, uh, what happens whenever we tend to lean too far into one and ignore the other? What ends up happening?
SPEAKER_00Well, the two are tied together because I would argue justice also ultimately is an outflow of love. Like love ultimately motivates even even justice. Um because it'd be unloving to turn a blind eye against unrighteousness, against evil, against wicked. Um, the loving thing to do is to deal with that problem and not let that go, not let in this say, in this case, the devil go get off the hook. You can't do that. That's an unloving act. So um love doesn't turn a blind eye from those things. It would be unloving to leave no consequence for uh for horrible, egregious acts. But God is just as a reflection of his love, and because he's loving, he now uh enacts justice where he will uh bring good from those horribly wronged situations. Um when you separate the two, it does get muddy and it gets weird real quick. Um I was trying to think through this. You know, justice without love, really then you lose the heart and the kindness that's motivated, the righteousness. Um if you want justice without love, that can become very selfish very quickly, because the love really, in my mind, brings in a lot of the righteousness into it, that it's motivated motivated by purity and love. But if you have no love in the situation, then then you're just becoming punitive. You're punitive and there's nothing uh good in that. Then that justice can become very selfish and self-serving very quickly and err on the side of unrighteous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I mean I agree with that. I think I think that's spot on, and I think with God, yeah, it's like you talked about you have to have both. And sometimes people really like to hide from the justice of God, but it's like it's like you said, it's to be loving is to be just. Yeah, right. It's like having a kid. Well, the most loving thing I can do for my kid is to correct my kid if there are to be justice with my child. However, if I am only justice and no love, then I'm just basically an abusive father just constantly tearing my child down and destroying them as opposed to gentle correction and consequence. But that is part of raising kids that you have to have that consequence that comes with it. There's no consequence, there's no change behavior. Right. Um, and also I think it plays into as well you don't have the redemptive story if you don't have both. Yeah. Uh if God is perfectly just, like we talked about a second ago, the Bible ends in Genesis 3, right? We're done. Uh, if God is perfectly loving, well then there is no there is no real restoration of relationship. The wrong has not been righted. Um I think that plays a part.
SPEAKER_03There also isn't a good definition of love without God. Yeah. Like, like realistically, our if we were gonna put a superficial idea of love over that, then sure, maybe we would think that God should have just let us all go and just restart and make a make a new society that didn't sin ever or whatever. But it's like that's not really part of his loving nature. In fact, the beauty of his love is that it rolls rolls so deep that he sent his own son to die on a cross for us. I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_00His love is way deeper than we can even imagine. Right. And and I think when people try to remove love uh or have love without justice, if they would uh if they even would argue for such thing, I don't know how that can I don't know how you can demonstrate love without justice. Because then you're being unloving to towards those who have been wronged. And it and it's and it's it's unkind. And really to your point, Stephen, it probably comes to a misunderstanding of what love is, because most people equate love ultimately just to feelings and those kind of things, and it's goes beyond feelings because in love, sometimes we do the things that feel hard, the things that that that are difficult, but it's motivated by love. And and so I think in that sense, when you look to the justice of God, it's actually in Ezekiel, I don't have the passage there, but it says that the Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked. It says that it's in the book of Ezekiel. And so I think when you're talking about the feelings of God, he doesn't he doesn't delight in this. That's what the word of God tells us. But he is just and he is loving, and it and he cannot turn that blind eye there. And if he does, then suddenly he is no longer loving. It's unloving to just uh look past the ways of the wicked and do nothing.
SPEAKER_03It does make me think, like, with Adam and Eve having lived prior to sin being in the world, right? So they got had a different relationship with God beforehand. Did they view that then punishment differently than we are now? Like because they saw a different version of God, or I get not really a different version of God, but they had a different kind of relationship with that.
SPEAKER_00They experienced him uniquely. I think I think that's fair to say. I I mean it's hard to say it's all conjecture because we don't know what what exactly they said. That's what's the hard part with Genesis is you get so little, like you get the broad strokes, you don't really get to all the details. I I mean, my on my just pastoral reading of the text, I think they expected to die. I mean, that's why they ran, and that's why they covered themselves up and they hid. Because I mean, they knew, they heard from God, they knew the word that you're gonna die. Um, Adam heard it from from the Lord. Eve even repeated it to the devil herself, so she knew also what God had said. And then when they ate the fruit, they hid because they thought they were gonna die. And so the fact that God then pursued them, covered them, and then sent them out uh without killing them, I wonder how they responded to all that. To me, that's all grace. And and the way they responded, I take that as is in faith, in faith and repentance. Even though you don't see a quote sinner's prayer in Genesis chapter three, what I see is faithful obedience. They don't fight back, they they they take the punishment, they receive it, and they leave the garden covered um through the blood of those skins, and they are now walking in faith, doing as God called them to. So I think I think they give a good example actually in a um you know, in a non-detailed way is probably the best way to put it, where I think the implications are there as it was. It was it was faith and repentance in that sense of they're walking in obedience to God after disobeying.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think also I think today we have a very different view of basically God's sovereignty and God's control than people did in biblical times. Because if you go read through the Old Testament, how do you see God described by the people who are living in what many people would say is like the mean God phase, like the phase of God where God was just killing everybody and casting disease everywhere? But if you look at how the Israelites talk about God, it's it's loving, it's kind, it's merciful, your law is a delight. Like all the language that is being used is praise language, even though they're the ones who are suffering. And even in moments where they very physically face the consequences for their rebellion coming out of that, the prayer is not, oh God, why would you do this? It's like God, you're good. Like, and so I think that kind of shows that they had a different view of the idea of justice. But I think today, I think for a lot of people, they love the idea of the God of love because you and Corbin talked about this a little bit last week. It's uh I can sin and God has no problem with my sin. Yeah, right. That basically God's gonna love me no matter what. Uh, and if God loves me no matter what, then I don't have to change, I don't have to repent. There is no fear of God. It's you know, it's the whole daddy God thing, right? Like, no, it's just my bestie and I like having a conversation, and we lose that fear uh of God and of his wrath because his wrath is real. Um and I think that that's why we're told as believers to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. You're supposed to remember who God is in both characteristics.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. And then in that theology, I would argue you don't really have a love for God, you have a love for yourself. Yeah. And and that, and that is kind of the warning in scripture is that many will be lovers of self, and and that's what you're doing is ultimately you're putting yourself on top of the pedestal and making the ground rules accommodating for yourself versus submissive towards a God who's your creator and ultimately your redeemer as well. So I would agree it's a selfish, that's a selfish love.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um okay, we will continue on. In verse 15, God says, I will put enmity between your offspring and her offspring. Uh, and I guess the question is um this idea of enmity between uh Satan's offspring and the seed of the woman, uh, in what ways does this describe kind of the ongoing conflict between like good and evil throughout history? But then also how do we see that playing out today?
SPEAKER_00Well, it goes on continually up to this day, because the idea being is that there's gonna be some that are gonna follow the ways of the devil. And that's why I read that that verse of uh 1 John chapter 3, verse 8, that says, Whoever practic who makes a practice of sinning is of the devil. And so that idea that the scripture says it's an uncomfortable one, but it says that we're born into this world enemies of God, that we that we are actually following the ways of the devil, even though we might not say we're yeah, we're not doing occultic weird things, but in practice we're following the ways of this world and we're following the ways of the devil, turning our back against God and living according to our flesh and desires. And so everyone in that sense, you know, is that offspring born into this world where we are opposed to God, but then he says there's there's gonna be someone who's gonna come from the offspring of the woman who will be the redeemer. And then those who choose to follow the redeemer, Jesus Christ, they're rescued from that. Now, those that that don't and keep following the ways of the devil, there is an ongoing, constant battle that that is gone on now for millennia for all of human history, where you have principalities, demons, darkness, spiritual forces, all the things out there that are leading people to do what Satan did as well, which is oppose God and work against his purposes. Um, this is why there's so many people that are not neutral, but antagonistic towards the church, antagonistic towards Jesus Christ, that that are warring against his purposes. It's because ultimately in their hearts they don't know it, but that is what they're doing, is they're following the ways of the devil. Um, and the solution is the offspring of the woman. It's it's Jesus Christ. But there is a real ongoing battle. Jesus talks a lot about this. He talked about in Matthew 13 that parable of the weeds, and he's talking about how believers they struggle with this, that there's all these weeds, you know, essentially around them, and why. And that was the whole point of the parable is it must be so until until he returns. There will be those who are bearing fruit, those who are walking with the Lord, that'll be right beside people who are not. And and those weeds that kind of choke the life out of you and that are challenging you and your faith and all these things. Um, but this is the way it is, is there's going to be this tension in the world to your point that um those who love God and those who oppose Him will both fill the same earth. And we're and we're gonna be doing life together and there will be opposition.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think even in that, even the people talks about false teachers as well, like people who are very clearly uh they know, like I don't think they're confused, they know that they're not teaching the truth, but they're misleading people, right? They're they're perverting the word of God, they're perverting the word of the scriptures in order to kind of push forward a certain ideal in there. And I think that's absolutely a part of it. And I guess part of the question is then if we are saved, so as believers, we still wrestle with the flesh. So, kind of how does this enity work out in a believer's life today, like from a personal standpoint because obviously we know we should be opposed to the things of the devil, but we still sin, we still struggle. So, how does this work out in our lives today, like personally?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Well, because we we say no to the things of the flesh, and the devil also ultimately I'll still go back and say start from here, the devil has no power over us anymore. Because you're born in this world a slave to your sin and a follower essentially of the ways of this world. Uh you're an enemy of God. That's the way the word of God describes us. But when you are born again, you've placed your faith in Christ, now the power of God, the Spirit of God lives in you, and He's regenerated, He's transformed your heart to give you new desires. Where if you're a born again believer, you don't want to go back into those old ways. There's nothing in you in your heart's heart that wants that. Now, sometimes we struggle in that Romans 7.15 way that we don't understand our own actions, for we did not do the things we want to do, but we do the very thing we hate. So we war against our flesh. Sometimes we do fall back into those traps of the devil. But even in those places, I I would contend, Nathan, if you're a born-again believer, you're not content where you are. Like even when you're sinning and you're messing up and maybe you're following those old ways, you're miserable. God won't let you live comfortably in your in sin as a born-again believer. You're not happy with it. And so hopefully you don't stay in it too long and you have that moment, you know, like the prodigal son, you come to your senses, you're in the pig in the pig slop and you decide to knock it off and go back to the Father and walk with him faithfully. But when you get there, I guess the point is you are gonna struggle, you are gonna fall, but but it's different because that is just more so you being drawn in and tripping up in your old behavior and you're fighting against it in your heart versus someone who's has no fight in them at all. They're just following the ways of the world because they are of the world. They're they're not transformed, there's nothing that's changed in their hearts. They're just living as one of the offsprings of the serpent because that's what they are. I mean, they have they have not had their life transformed by Christ. And so there is a fundamental difference, I guess, and a lot of it comes down to heart tension, I guess, is maybe the way I would say, where when we struggle and when we fall, we don't like it, we don't want it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's an interesting kind of pull, I guess, because um that that where I get pulled in this direction of uh basically blaming that my sin should have been on you know something else or someone else or something like that. And and I have this weird like tension of it wasn't my fault, it was Satan's fault for putting this idea in my head, or this other person's fault for putting this idea in my head. Um and I think it kind of becomes a cop-out. It does it's like this weird thing where I'm like, I should have just taken the ownership of my own sin that I did. Yeah. Instead of, you know, it creates this weird balance and tension that goes on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I'd say two things to that. One, I want to go to the idea of the enmity. So I was I looked up Galatians 5, uh, it's verse 16 and 17 says, but I say, walk by the spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh, for the flesh, that's its desire against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, for these are in opposition to one another, so that you do not do the things that you please. So this idea of in the believer's life, you have the spirit and the flesh. And it says there, they're in conflict. There is no peace. You cannot be walking in the spirit and also walking in the flesh. These things don't coexist. So either you're gonna be feeding the spirit or you're gonna be feeding the flesh in your life. I think that's an important thing. But what you just said, Stephen, I think was an important point. I think this is a good, this wasn't really in our notes, but I think it's a good conversation is what is the difference? Like when does sin become sin, I guess? Because is it let's say, for instance, you are walking down almost like a David and Bathsheba thing. Now we're gonna ignore the fact that he was where he wasn't supposed to be, but he walks over to the side of the roof and he sees a beautiful woman bathing on the roof, his first thought is lustful. Now, did he sin the second he walked over and saw and that lustful thought popped in? Like, sure, that's sin, but is that him sinning, or is that just the flesh happening in his body? And then does the sin come in for like the real continuation of sin whenever he keeps looking and invites her over? Because I think there's a distinction between the flesh acting out, where you have that moment of rage, frustration, lust, that you're not trying, you're not looking for it. It just kind of happens. And then the sin in intentional habitual sin, where you think up new ways to invent and create wickedness, where you are trying to find ways to engage in it. What would you think about that, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_00Uh James 114 says uh each person is tempted when he's lured and enticed by his own desire. So, in that in that example you give, that first glance to see a beautiful woman using the example of David. We all just as men, or you could play the game, also vice versa, on the other side, but as a man, I'll speak as a man. Men see beautiful women everywhere they go. Like they're gonna see a beautiful woman. Women are beautiful, and they might see someone there, and as they as they as there's literally a person in the room or across the street or whatever, that first look, that's part of that's just being human of you notice somebody there. But to your point, Nathan, a lot of it comes down then to what do you do and how do you respond to that? Because the acknowledgement of beauty is one thing. Then to get that second glance and then feed that desire and enticed by your own desire to then feed your flesh to then lust and look that second time or third time, whatever it may be, then yes, you are you are immediately stepping into sin. You are because you're you're uh being enticed by your desire and you're gratifying that desire ultimately through through sin. Um so I think it comes down to that. It's it's what do you do? It's so often not just the when a situation comes across, that those are going to come across. You're gonna be tempted. It's how do you respond? But I think also I also want to add this. I think a lot of this time we always make this conversation about like those horrible sins that we're all ashamed of that we shouldn't do. I don't want us to forget that like John the Baptist called the Pharisees sons of the devil. So I mean you can also go on the other side of the self-righteousness, because ultimately sin is anything added to faith, really, at the end of the day. And the for the Pharisees, it was sinful for them because they were trying to gratify their flesh by earning a righteousness they could not carry. Like they were trying to trying to show themselves as better and more holy and righteous through deed. And that was the work of the devil. It was ultimately them elevating themselves to a place of righteousness that they could not earn. And that literally is really what the devil did. He tried to elevate himself to a place that he did not deserve. Um and so that's why I would also say this. I think it's both sides of the argument when we talk about, you know, dealing with the devil and dealing with this enmity and all this stuff. So often we always point towards the heinous sins, and usually we don't look to the more evident sin, which oftentimes is self-righteous and legalism in church circles, and that also is the work of the devil. It's the same thing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03And Satan and his punishment is also a part of like our story as well. Because like his his situation, it goes into like this enmity and this this constant tension between us. And even like I some of you listeners, some of you may notice in your Bible that this section of scriptures like has a different formatting all of a sudden. Um, in some of our Bibles it has that, and some of that is like a historical narrative type thing because this is part of the original like Hebrew historical narrative. But I was thinking, like, why is Satan's punishment part of that? Why wouldn't it just be the human punishment that's part of that? And I was like, I wonder if that's because of this enity between man and Satan, that that is actually supposed to be part of our tension of living on this earth, that we're always having being tempted into certain things. Part of it's we get ourselves into it, part of it's also Satan is playing some tricks here and there, and he's getting us to do things we shouldn't do and trying to get us away from the purpose that God has called us to.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I think I think he came first in the order because he was the origin of the problem. I mean, because the problem even predated Adam and Eve. You know, it it goes back to his original fall. So I think he had to be listed first, um, because ultimately it made sense. But to your point, there will be a relation going forward where he's gonna be active and and the devil demons, their works and their effects will have uh issues on this earth and ultimately dominion on this earth that that people will have to then deal with going forward.
SPEAKER_03And people like the Hebrews even noticed how important that was, though, that they put it into their recorded historical like event structure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think and part of the reason you see it in there too is, and this kind of leads into that next part, because part of that, the enity that comes there is verse 15. Uh, it's also what uh a lot of Christian scholars say the the proto-evangelium, right? And it is this idea of the first gospel because and Jonathan, you you talked about this in your lesson that in this, while you see the curse of Satan, you also see the promise of redemption. Yeah. That before mankind's even really dealt with in terms of their consequence for sin, you see God's redemptive plan already comes into this. And so uh I want to talk a little bit more about that. What kind of a hope should that give believers today? And even what kind of encouragement do you think that gave believers throughout the history of like the Israelites and even the early church reflecting on this idea that God's response to sin is yes, to curse the snake, but then it's to basically promise Jesus immediately after that that you get into the redemption. Now, while that is a curse for Satan, for us it's the good news. It's a blessing for us. Um why what what kind of a response should that promote in us as believers?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it it reminds us to use that word that we're blessed. Because to that point in Genesis 1, he creates Adam and Eve and He blesses them, we're told after He after He creates them, he blesses man. And then here He curses Satan. And the point of that cursing is to re-establish the blessing that he had for man, which was ultimately to dwell with him and into a joy all that he made. Um, and so I think that's really encouraging to us that the cursing of Satan doesn't have to rob us of the blessing that God has for us. Like God made us still to be in relationship with him and still to do those things, to exercise dominion, to subdue the earth, to be fruitful and multiply. Like those creation decrees are still God's desire for us, and God made us in his image. We still carry his image, even though it's distorted because of sin, but however, it's not destroyed. And so I think that's the picture is that God is ultimately trying to lead us back to a place of blessing. I think that's what we should read into that is is wow, he didn't give up on us. And and ultimately he immediately offers the solution, and the solution will come through as a good father dealing with the problem that that plagued his children, uh, which is the devil, and he brought all this in there, and he's cursed him, and one day he'll restore us fully into that blessing. But I hope I hope it encourages people. I mean, that's the whole point, is it should. And I think it's so fitting a lot of people miss it. I mentioned in that sermon that Genesis 3.15 really is like the turning point of the whole Bible, because that that literally that one verse, then from that point going forward for the rest of Scripture, it could all be understood as just God delivering on that promise of that one verse. He it the one verse of first fifth verse 15 is the turning point. And then from there forward, all it is is it's just the details. How did God actually do it? And and it's explaining it through the rest of scripture, but it is a huge promise that I think hopefully should encourage us that God cares that much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not only that God cares, but I think too, I think sometimes our response as Christians, because they're like you talked about this before, you you're not going to be comfortable in your sin. And so when the Holy Spirit convicts and you get a recognition of like, oh, I'm a sinner, a lot of times for people who are have done those things in their minds that are truly heinous, they've done these really terrible things. And I think I I love the passage you use for 1 Corinthians that no temptation has seized you except what is common to man, because our default is to kind of believe everyone else has got it figured out. I'm the only person who's still screwing up. Like I'm the only person who can't figure this out for some reason, uh, and that I am unique in my wickedness and my sin. And sometimes we can get this idea in our head, hey, we've outsinned, I've outsinned grace. Like God regrets saving me. Um I I'm outside of this, like all these promises of God may not apply to me. And it's like, y'all, God, before the foundation of the earth was laid, Christ agreed agreed to be a ransom for your soul. You know what I'm saying? Like, God's not confused or fooled whenever you do something. It's not like he said, Oh, I'm gonna save Jonathan, and then you do something, and he's like, Oh, wait, didn't see that coming. Like, I don't know if I can still do this. It's like whenever Christ died on the cross and was raised from the dead, it was for our past, present, and future sins. Um, and so we have been made righteous, not because we earned it or because we deserve it, but rather because of how good God is. And for me, that's kind of the hope that I look to in it is that I'm not surprising God with my wickedness. Now, I don't want to be wicked, like that's not a desire I have, but when I mess up, God took that into account and he still saved me.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um now, the proper response for me then is not to go, well, I guess my sin doesn't matter, you know, continue in sin so that grace may abound, right? But rather to just turn that reverence back to God that how good and how loving is God, that in the midst of humanity's first real rebellion, he responds with grace.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, it was always his plan, which shows the heart of God at the end of the day, too, is one that he's he's bigger than Satan and he already knew how this was going to end before it even started. Um so he already knew it all. And then to your point, he'd already thought through how he would redeem us. And so he created us before he created us, he knew how he was going to redeem us, which is says a lot about him, but also to your point, a lot about his love for us and his purposes for us, how much he values us and actually wants us, yeah, um, even though he didn't need us.
SPEAKER_01So this is a question we were gonna get into a little bit later, but based on what we just talked about, I feel like it fits well right here. We were asked uh the question of so we talked about how God knew this was gonna happen. Yeah, but the question is if the earth was created as perfect, why basically does God even put the tree there? Why is Satan allowed to tempt mankind? Uh and why does God allow that to happen? When he could have just kind of left it as perfect, like why why is that a thing that happens?
SPEAKER_00Well, the tree we talked about that a few episodes ago, so I don't know if I'll go fully into the tree because we did do a whole sermon on the tree. But I mean the tree ultimately is presenting a uh choice at the end of the day, and it's and it's God in his moral perfection. He is not forcing himself, you know, into relationship. He does give that decision of, I want to bless you, all this is for you, but this tree does establish that that ultimately this is a choice, and true love does offer in that sense that choice, that agency to choose. And so the tree's there as far as the devil and his arrival. Um, ultimately the devil betrayed God. And you're right, he got thrown down to earth, and why to earth, you know, particular. Um, that was God's prerogative. Um, at the end of the day, part of that also is this was ultimately another testing for mankind through that, that the devil chose he had God, he was walking with God, and he chose, I'd rather be God. And so he got thrown out from God's presence to the earth, and he's now tempting Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve basically get to make essentially the same decision in a sense of am I just gonna walk with God and trust God, or am I gonna just try to be God and call the shots and do what I want and see if I can find all the knowledge and wisdom he has. And so even Satan being sent to earth was a test. I mean, it really is a test in that same way for Adam and Eve. Um, but as far as the why, it's because the Bible tells me he that's why. You know, he he sent he sent the devil to earth at the end of the day. And what you see through it, actually, you do see in the big picture that God had designed man to have dominion over the earth, but man did not say no to the devil. So then the devil takes dominion of the earth at that point forward because man gave up, relinquished that right that God had made it made him for, is now handed off to the devil for a temporary time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think uh I think on on top of that, whenever you uh whenever you look at it, that's kind of a misnomer that sometimes people have, because if you look at it from like a Hollywood perspective or story perspective, there's this idea that that Satan and his demons are down in hell. Yeah. Uh and that basically whenever it's like that's where they're partying, but it's like, well, no, we're told he has dominion over the earth and he that he's on the earth. Um and so I think that's an important reminder. That was also part of the question there was basically what happened to Satan and his demons. Like they were cast out of heaven, uh, but they are they're on earth. They're around us. They're around us. And and it comes to that last question we're gonna talk about here in a second, but it it when God, when Jesus ultimately returns, he's gonna cast them into the lake of fire, right? Like that's the ending. They will be sent to hell, yeah. What we would call hell, right? But they're not there yet. Yeah. They're still on this earth wreaking havoc and messing with people and doing all the things that Satan does.
SPEAKER_00Well, and what's crazy too, how this gets in the weeds, but you know, the revelation also points to there's a special kind of like demons and special level of bad boys that are that are locked up right now, that that will be released during that tribulational period of time, that will bring hell on earth. Um, and so there's even that side where God is actually restraining, I believe, right now biblically, you know, a level of of evil that will for that short period of time be relinquished on earth as an act of judgment during those seven years that will then precede Christ's return. Um but as for today, you're exactly right. I mean, the the demonic forces are at work all around the world. And Jesus himself calls Satan the ruler of this earth. Um, and and a lot of that you go back to that idea of dominion. God gave Adam dominion. He said, Rule, rule over this earth. You're my representative on this earth. And then he chose to follow in the footsteps of the devil, and now the devil becomes that ruler of the earth, and he's wreaking havoc all over.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, you see it in Job too. That's the whole idea. He goes up into heaven. He's like, Hey, Job only loves you because you gave him everything. Yes. And God lets him go and basically do a lot of the evil things to Job, you know? Um But so I guess here's a question talking about Satan. Uh one of the questions we have then is you mentioned the defeat of Satan, how ultimately he will be destroyed or suffer for all eternity. Right. Um why is there no redemption offered for Satan and his demons? So mankind rebels, we get grace, we get a chance at redemption, but Satan and the demons, it seems like they never get a shot. Yeah. Uh so why is that?
SPEAKER_00It's a good question. And I I'd answer it in a couple ways. Um, one, I kind of said this earlier, but I think it's still, once again, a helpful reminder. Questions like this are always rooted in, they come from a place of God owes us something. That's like the that's the presupposition behind a question like that, is that I'm entitled to grace. I'm entitled to some kind of salvation. And the word of God says we're not. It says we're all dead in our transgressions. So he doesn't owe Satan a second chance. Honestly, just like you and me, he doesn't owe a second chance. He he chose to give us a second chance in Jesus Christ. But but I think it it gets into a weird place if we start talking about God owing people things or that it's unfair, because he is just and he doesn't owe us anything. So I would always start there of, you know, why does he not? Well, he doesn't owe him anything for starters. But then secondly, this gets into more of the speculative side. Satan's act was very, very egregious. Adam and Eve's act was also egregious, but I mean, if we're talking about Satan and the demons that followed, that's a different level, I feel like, of betrayal against God. That these are angelic creatures. These are these are uh creatures made to serve him in his heavenly court. I mean, they were serving in heaven, uh, not just on earth, but you think about the throne room of God in Revelation 4 and 5. You talk about the things they have seen and the and the time they had spent with him. Um, they were created higher than mankind in that sense. Um in Psalm chapter 8, it says that we're made just a little lower than angels, even though we carry the image of God. We don't carry that power, that sense of what they have right now here on this earth. So that he was given all that power, all that access, all of those things, and then basically said, Forget you, I want to be in charge. That is a special level of just heinous treason against a holy, righteous, perfect God. And so I I to me, I think why is his consequence so devastating? It's because the act was so devastating. Um, and is there a turning back from that? How can you turn back from that? And also, secondly, where in scripture do we see any revelation of repentance coming out of Satan? I've never found that text where he's like, oh, I'm so sorry, God. I don't I don't think that's there because it never happened. And once again, God knows the hearts and minds of all people. And I don't think there's anything in Satan that is repentant whatsoever. I think God knows that. I think also his level of transgression was higher than anyone else's. And so consequently, he has a special place in hell, you know, in the the lake of fire, and he will be put there justly and eternally by a holy God. And and I don't think any of us can or should question God's perfect judgment in that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, I I'm I'm right there with you. Because I think if especially at how the Bible describes Satan, that you know, that he was leading worship, that he's up there by the throne, that he's he's physically, he is seeing God in a way that humanity has never seen God. Um Adam and Eve got to this idea of walking in the presence of God in the garden, right, in a unique way. But even angels have seen God in heaven in a way that basically living humans have not seen. Right. Except maybe John. Maybe John, whenever John was looking in the revelation, outside of that, he got a sneak, which probably was terrifying to look at. But you you see that there, but you don't see it. So there's a very unique thing, and I think you touched on the very good point there that a lot of times I think this also goes in the idea of the look focusing only on the love of God. There's this idea that, hey, God owes me something. Yeah. And no, he doesn't. God, if God gave you what you deserved, you'd be dead, you know, and so there is that idea too. Um, and I think on top of that, it gets into what you mentioned. There is no idea of repentance in Satan. Satan's entire MO is to still to this day continue in trying to lead people away from God and lead them into basically either could not following him or a following of basically Satan's ideals and Satan's values.
SPEAKER_00And because we trust the word of God and we know it's true, because all the prophecy has been fulfilled up to this point, the prophecy yet to be fulfilled, what does it depict Satan and his? His last final days there in Revelation, leading a final rebellion after he's been restrained for a thousand years, and Jesus is right now ruling and reigning on earth as he is in heaven, with Christians in glorified bodies for a thousand years reigning on earth. Satan's tied up for a thousand years. The moment he's loose, what is he going to do? War against God, war against Jesus Christ, and try to defeat him one more time. So it's like it's like God sees that. That's who he is. And that's and that's ultimately what's exactly going to happen because all of God's word, the prophecies have been true. That prophecy will be true as well one day. And God will be justified. Because it's like, yeah, that's that's not really somebody that wants redemption. That's somebody that just wants to be king. And for that, yes, he deserves the judgment that's coming to him. And I don't think anybody should lose sleep over that.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think uh so this this actually leads into one of the questions that we had asked was does Satan know the ending, basically? Like whenever he is cursed in Genesis 3, does he know ultimately that, for instance, Christ is going to come and that Christ is going to die on a cross? Does he know that ultimately he will be defeated? Or do you think Satan has this idea in his mind that maybe he can pull something off? Or, you know, is he trying to create create as much chaos as possible? Or do you think he know he think he in his mind believes something different?
SPEAKER_00I think what he knows now is different than what he's known over the course of history, in a sense, as far as the details. Now we have the full revelation of God's word, and it's revealed to us, and I believe it's revealed to him, then consequently as well, that all of creation has been given this revelation. So I think he knows where this story is going. Um but if you're going back all the way to the original word in Genesis 3.15, could he see the full picture of what all that meant immediately? I don't I don't believe so. Um, because he's not omnipotent, he's not not omniscient. I think he he was hearing that and he knew it was bad news. Um but then you also connect the dots to even like in Revelation 12 when you get the imagery of the dragon against the woman. Um and so you see that there was even war then is seemingly where it points towards Israel, points towards even towards Mary. I believe it's a double meaning there, um, where I think the devil was aware Jesus is coming, when Jesus was coming, and I think he didn't like that, and I think he warred against that. And you even see the spiritual forces at work, even uh around the picture of like Herod trying to then murder all those babies. These are all things that I believe were demonically inspired even from the moment at the beginning when when the incarnation happened with Jesus, and then when Jesus is on this earth, he is tested and tried directly by Satan. So he knew who Jesus was. He knew that he was on a mission. Now, did he fully understand everything and how it was all gonna work? Seems like no one else really did. I mean, because even Paul talks about how the mystery has now been revealed, where Paul then does a lot of that apostolic work of connecting the dots of the Old Testament to the new and to the Messiah, of how all this stuff is being fulfilled, where there was a little bit of lack of clarity, if you will, um, as people were processing that in real time. And I would tend to believe that Satan maybe was processing too, and and so I don't want to give him too much credit where he knew every detail, but was he aware that this was not good news for him? Absolutely. Like I think he absolutely was aware of that, and he knew who Jesus was, and he was trying to stop him in some way, in some form or fashion.
SPEAKER_01Which is why you see the temptation of Jesus. Exactly. It's like, yeah, he if he knows no matter what happens, this is like it's gonna be a thing, then he why is he trying to tempt Jesus away? Right. Uh and then I think also the other very, very clear logic is if you know that the only way that God can accomplish his plan is through Jesus being crucified, well then you just wouldn't have him not be crucified. It's like, well, just don't kill him and we're good. So that death has to happen. And so I think Satan thought, like, oh, I'm I'm killing the Son of God. Like, look at me. It's this victory, but then that's where you see Paul, I mean, hit him with the oh, death, where is your sting? Like, basically, do you even do you even lift, bro? Like, you can't you can't handle this. And so I don't think he knew what was coming because he there's no way he could. Um, and I think in the same way today, if I had to guess, I think he I think, like you said, I think that he knows that something is coming, but I think in his mind is it's basically, is there a way trying to create a way out of it? Basically, it's a way I can still fight back. Is there a way I can still do all these things?
SPEAKER_00Because he never trusted God. That's kind of the point, is from the beginning he didn't trust God, and that's what got him thrown out. So even now when God has revealed how this is gonna end, do I believe Satan knows the the story of Revelation and how it's described there in scripture? Yeah, I would like I would tend to believe he's probably read that scripture by now and he knows he knows how this story's gonna end. Um, but does that keep him from fighting? No. Um because also I think he's so arrogant, I think he probably in his mind thinks he can somehow overcome uh God, which was was that was his original transgression. Like he thought he was better than God, and so he's gonna die with the exact same sin, and he's gonna die with the exact same transgression. Um so it's it's tragic in that sense, but I think that is what how the word characterizes him.
SPEAKER_03And it makes you wonder if he had some sort of knowledge before the fall, like before he led that whole rebellion and everything. Uh you would think uh obviously angels get some sort of revelations from God, right? Like Gabe Gabriel was given orders to go talk to Mary and that sort of stuff. So they have some sort of heavenly knowledge, perhaps stuff that we don't even know about the end times. And he's been cut off from all that, right? Because he he led the rebellion, he's been sent down. So the i I would argue even that some of the angels in heaven know way more than he does about how all that's going to unfold in the end. Yeah. Um, maybe even details, who knows? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think also Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1 18 that uh the message of the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Well, Satan is clearly perishing. So it's like he can read the same thing that we can read, and he can get a very different view. In the same way that atheists can read the same Bible that we read, but they get a very different word. They get a very different response out of it than we do. Yeah. Um they don't connect the dots in the way that we would connect the dots.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think that's a great, that's a great point because a non-believer could read the message and the promise of condemnation for those that are outside of Jesus Christ. They can read that and be like, I'll take my chances. Yeah. You know, that happens to to humans all the time that reject Jesus Christ. So to that point, is it crazy to think that Satan would think the same? Yeah. Um, you're exactly right. I think it makes a lot of sense. And that's also makes sense why then there will be offspring of the serpent, because you see the same heart that's being displayed on both sides.
SPEAKER_01So I think that there, I think it's a a good distinction there too, is I think that when people are born, you know, and you have this idea of original sin, that you're born, you walk in your sin. And it's almost like being like an agnostic versus an atheist. I think that there are people who legitimately have their hearts and minds set against hostile to the things of God, and people who are more of just in basically a state of sin. Yeah. Where it's not necessarily they're actively trying to rebel against God, they just are living in a state of sin versus there are people who truly do like, oh, I believe that this is true. I'm just I'm hostile to it. Right. You know, or I'm just opposed to the everything about it. And so I'm going to be active against it as opposed to I'm just walking in rebellion. I think there's a distinction in those things too. Yeah, I think in terms of the mindset.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. It's a mindset, but that's the hard part is people don't know that they're in rebellion when they are. And that like Ephesians 2, 1 says that you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh. And so the scripture says that basically we all walked this way, following the course of the devil. Um, whether we knew it or we were trying to do it, and that gets that point of inherited sin, where it's like, well, we were just by nature, we all are by nature sinners. And in that sense, by default, we are following this course of action. Some of us with more animosity than others. Right. Um, and levels there is a gradation to our sin. Not all sin. All sin is equally forgivable. Not all sin is equal. And the Old Testament speaks to that. There are different levels of egregious sin. So some people have differing levels of sin, but we all follow in that pattern until Christ breaks the curse, until you ultimately choose to follow him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think I I think that's a good thing to touch on right there, because you just mentioned it. Because a lot of people hear it all the time, like, oh, all sin's the same.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I I think it's a mistranslation of James too, when he's talking about judgment, and he says, hey, if you're guilty of breaking the law, you're guilty of breaking the whole law. And so it's one of those things where you have the spiritual consequence of sin is similar in the sense that it leads to death. Right. But actual sin itself, there are differing levels of sin. Even in the law, you see that because not everyone gets killed for everything. Exactly. Like there are some things that are different punishments, and there are different things, and even like the seven deadly sins, and what it says, hey, these are seven things that God hates, you know, and it's like it seems to be like a greater level of like issue. Now, can you explain that nuance a little bit? Like, what's the difference you think there?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think you said it well. I think it's just that, and and honestly, our conscience even reveals this. Like, even in the way we set up systems and order in society, not all uh broken laws are the same. Like there are different consequences for different levels of acts. And that's really a reflection of the moral law that God has given through Scripture. Because to your point, in the Old Testament, there's all those different levels of penalty because they ultimately the retribution and the consequence for an act is tied to how much of an impact did you make? How bad was that that sin? What kind of level of devastation did you bring? And then that will bring a consequence with that. And so that's the point. I think you're exactly right, is there is a gradation to sin. There's different grades and levels to it. Now, in the New Covenant, what we're told is all sin is equally forgivable by the Lord. And that's the good news, and that is grace, that it doesn't matter who you are and what you did. Uh Paul says he's the chief of all sinners, yet he's forgiven as an example for all of us that we can be forgiven too. But I think it is important to differentiate those two things because I think you're right, we have to understand there are differing levels out there. But when it comes down to someone going to heaven or hell, it just comes down to are you a sinner or not? And in that sense, it's like, yeah, well, we all are. And so even though Hitler might have sinned way worse than you, um, and I don't doubt that, there's still there still is the reality that we're all sinners and and he's perfect. And that and because of that, there's a consequence that carries. But it doesn't mean all sin is equal, though. There are differing levels and there'll be different levels of punishment. That's also described, different levels of punishment and rewards. Those that are in hell, there will be differing levels of punishment according to their egregious acts. And then in heaven, there will be different levels of a reward according to your faithfulness. And even in that, you see God's justice displayed in the scriptures that it is accounted for.
SPEAKER_01No, I think that's a that's a really good word because a lot of times people get confused on that. Um well, yeah, I think that it kind of wraps up everything that I have. Any last thoughts?
SPEAKER_03I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all good. Good. All right. Well, listeners, we hope you uh enjoyed this episode of Citizen ATX. Uh, it's been a pleasure leading out this week. Excited to have Corbin back next week. Uh, and then next week as well, I will be back uh to uh take on more of a role because I'll be teaching this Sunday, looking forward to looking at the curse of woman and the curse of man. So uh tune in next week. We'll be excited to have you. Y'all have a good day.