Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Building on Foundations: Thorns and Thistles
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We see the consequences of the Fall everywhere. Some of these consequences are obvious...sickness...death... But what are we to make of the things that aren't expressly stated in the curse? What connections can be drawn from this passage to other passages in the Bible? Join Nathan, Jonathan, and Corbin as they discuss the curse of man.
Well, hello and welcome back, listener, to the Citizen ATX podcast. My name is Corbin Smith. I am back after a week where I did not go to Guatemala. There's a lot of lore behind that. But we are we are excited to be back in our Building on Foundations series, where we are building on the foundations we're laying in our sermon series, Foundations, about the Book of Genesis. Joining me today are Pastor Dr. Jonathan Spencer.
SPEAKER_02Aldi Corbin.
SPEAKER_00And Pastor Nathan Wood. Are you pastor? Minister? I'm a pastor. Thank you very much. I was ordained. Yeah. Amen. Pastor Nathan Wood. Steven's here too, but he's not on Mike. So he gave us a thumbs up. We're glad you're here. But man, we uh we had some light work this last week, guys. Uh but before we get there, spring break happened. Any anything cool? Anything fun going on for y'all spring break?
SPEAKER_02We went on a little family road trip, nothing like bonding for about 10 hours together in the car. It was great. That sounds like my personal nightmare. No, it was fun. Forced, forced family fun. We went to Dallas to see family, then we went to Houston to see family, then we came back to Austin. Caught a Rockets game. Hadn't been to the Toyota Center in 15 years. So that was fun.
SPEAKER_00It was fun. Shangun is uh yeah, complicated, overrated.
SPEAKER_03I got to enjoy the adult spring break, which is where you work like normal. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Have y'all seen that? Uh it's like this is good. And this girl is like talking to her coworkers, she goes, Oh, so what are you guys gonna do for the summer? And they're like, What do you mean? She goes, Well, we have summer break. And they go, Oh, no. What are you supposed to look forward to? Uh I do I get lucky because I work with students, and so I do I get I don't get a full break, but you do get like a little downtime between camp and everything for that. It's definitely a blessing.
SPEAKER_03My kids did get strep throat over the weekend, so we have that going forward as well.
SPEAKER_00I don't have strep, but I have oak allergies and it's hitting hard right now, y'all. And so uh forgive me for my lower register of voice. Uh the the eighth grade girls gave me a double take on Sunday because they heard me talking. They're like, who is that? Right. Uh so we were in Genesis 3, 16 through 20. Was that 16 through 19. Through 16 through 19. I referenced 20. I referenced 20. Uh that makes sense because we didn't talk a ton about kind of the layers of 20, but we were in Genesis 3, 16 through 19. Nathan preached, if you weren't with us, uh and we kind of picked up right from the Proto-Bee Evangelion all the way through the curse of man and woman. Nathan, do you, in your best words, really quick, just want to summarize where you were. We're gonna have a lot of people that are out because the spring break gets out.
SPEAKER_03No, absolutely. Yeah. So basically looking at uh last week we had looked at God cursing the serpent and cursing Satan through that, and now we're gonna get to the consequences for uh Eve and then for Adam, or I should say for woman and for Adam, because at this point she has not been renamed. Uh and so God lays out two things uh for her where he talks about her pain in childbirth. And we talked about how in the Hebrew he uses the word pain twice, but in the Hebrew there are actually two different words. One's like a physical toil, and then one's an emotional. So this idea that from basically pregnancy through bearing of children, there's gonna be pain and struggle, uh, that you're gonna push back against that headship of man was the second part. Uh, and then for the men was that there was gonna be toil and thorns and thistles and pain associated now with his purpose of work in the ground. Uh, and then from there also we see a physical and spiritual death that's gonna come through that. And so after we got done talking about all that fun stuff, we then pointed ahead though that hey, Christ redeemed, and we went back to that Genesis 3.15 that before we got to the consequence, God had already laid that way for redemption to come in. So that's a very important part to focus on as well.
SPEAKER_00I appreciated the way you framed it kind of from five areas that sin is we've talked about on the podcast even recently that sin like literally corrupts and infects, it's like a disease. And then we have five cures that God's gonna have like at the end of all things where he's going to not just redeem us, but redeem creation, which I think is so cool. But uh speaking of sin kind of infecting everything, uh, a beautiful thing is childbirth. Sin has even touched that, uh, which is crazy. Uh, why is that the first consequence for humanity mentioned? Do you guys think? Is there any intention in in God leading off with childbirth there?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would say, well, number one, I think that he deals with the woman first because she was the one who ate the fruit first, right? Uh and I think that if you look at it, men and women, while woman was the primary recipient of what God said, men and women both struggle in their roles now as a result of sin. But the only thing, like that is one that women can do only is give birth. Like, men can't give birth. So that is a very unique tie to her purpose and her ability uh to create life that men do not have. I think that's just a physical reality as well in there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's also a connection point to where the curse he gave to the devil was actually related to the woman, because he said, I'm gonna put enmity between the woman's offspring and your own. And so he gave the promise of salvation. We talked about that a couple weeks ago, through Christ, and that salvation would actually come through the offspring of woman. So it's interesting that he does go then from Satan to woman to then talk about childbirthing, talking about that and and talking about how there's gonna be pain in this, there's gonna be beauty in that salvation will come through it, salvation to the world, but there will also be pain through it, through as Nathan talked about through all the things. The ramp of the world.
SPEAKER_00I'm saving you for this, but there are still there are still some consequences.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think he could even then tie into what is it? Is it Luke 2 where it talks about Mary being pierced? Like she's gonna be pierced. Like that's where she's told that basically as she watches her son die, yeah, um, that she's gonna experience a torment in that as well.
SPEAKER_00That's good. Um well, I I guess kind of a follow-up to that. This is a complicated one. I did send this out before, so you guys are not fully firing off the hip. Adam and Eve seem to know what childbirth is here. Biggest issue that is no children have been born yet. Right. That we know of. That we know of. That we know of. That we know of. So my question is: is this just God has kind of told them what's gonna happen? Is this there are other children that have been born besides Cain and Abel? Does this mean that Genesis is not necessarily being chronological here when it's saying that maybe, hey, some of this child stuff is happening pre-fall? Uh does this mean that God's created other humans that are there in the garden and that's where human is humanity is populated from, right? Like what do you guys think?
SPEAKER_03I would I would go with I don't think that God created other humans and play some of the garden. I think there is a very real and literal connection back to Adam and Eve for all the promises for Jesus. So it'd be kind of odd if you had the other people who were just kind of randomly there. Now, in terms of did they have other kids, the hard part is we just there's a lot of things we just don't know. Yeah. Because they were put in the garden and they were told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And we look at it and we go straight from that to eating the fruit, but we have no idea what it's like.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't seem like it's just like a day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we don't know how long that process went for them. Uh and so, yeah. And I think also you gotta understand, like Moses, when he's writing this, he has a goal, and his goal is to point back to the hereditary line that led to Christ. That is a genealogy. And so that's why even you'll see you see Cain and Abel, and then you see Seth, and then we're told that they have other sons and daughters, but we just don't know who they are.
SPEAKER_02And it gets to the other point of even in chapter four, when Cain kills Abel, then he's worried about all these other people that are gonna kill him.
SPEAKER_00Well, also they go and take wives like right away after that, right?
SPEAKER_02Like it's uh So the question who are all those other people? But then that also gets in the question of you know how many other people then were populated. Were Cain and Abel the first ones to that point? And then were there others that we just don't know about that were populated around that? Was he a forward-thinking visionary that just knew where this was going? And he was talking about future people that would be versus were presently. I don't know. These are all questions we don't know. Uh so it's just it's it's a good question.
SPEAKER_00They got that real dynamic leader, Cain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. I know, I know. But I I mean, at the end of the day, we don't know. I I I always I've said this before, I like to read the Bible as it's stated, as it says. I try not to read things into the text that aren't there. Um so I read it as Cain and Abel were the first ones listed, so Cain and Abel. Um, but that being said, is it impossible? I would I would agree with some of y'all's sentiments. We just don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think also it would get into a kind of a weird spot too with the fall if there are other kids, because it's like if there are other people, because it's like, well, they didn't do anything wrong, so why were they kicked out of the garden? Why or are they still hanging out in the garden? You know, it's like it would get you into a weird spot, right? Of like, how do you handle that? Because Adam and Eve are facing the consequence, but what happens to the other people who didn't do anything like that?
SPEAKER_02And it gets into the whole doctrine of sin to your point, of sin as hereditary and then being passed down. So the the if those other ones didn't have it genetically passed down, then why would they be culpable to man's sin?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I would say on one hand, like God doesn't seem to have a problem like holding that intention with like humans are still responsible, even if it's not like, you know, I I don't know. Why would they have the earth cursed though if they weren't actually part of the I'm not necessarily of the camp of there were other humans, I'm just saying I think that there are a lot of things. And I think we we there's two things I want to bring up here. One, like I think it's important that we have an answer. I don't think there's a necessarily a right one. You just need to have like a reasonable answer to this question because there are people that read Genesis all sorts of ways, right? Something we haven't talked about in time is there is a huge percentage of Christians that read read Genesis allegorically, yeah. Right, especially the first really three chapters of Genesis, and they'd say that those are real cosmological realities, but they aren't like a literal story. And obviously, we come to that from a different perspective, being a Southern Baptist, by and large, believing in things like inerrancy and things like that of scripture that sometimes are pretty contradictory towards this idea of an allegorical reading of something like Genesis, where it's so foundational. Uh not that that's not possible to have a reading anywhere else in scripture with that, but still. So I think having having a good answer to why we believe that this is a literal story is important. And it means we need to understand the details. We don't have to have a full apologetic answer for every piece of this, but I do think it's worth thinking through. But I love what you said just now, Nathan, about um Moses being this author that has an in, in a sense, an agenda, an agenda from God, but an agenda where he's trying to communicate not even just the genealogy of Jesus, but also the story of Israel as a nation to the people of Israel. Right? That's something that I do think gets lost in this, is some of why we have these kind of jump cuts in the story of Genesis, is because Moses has an intention that's given to him by the Holy Spirit because he's writing inspired scripture. Uh and so I think we can get frustrated sometimes. We're like, why don't why isn't it just easy? Like, why don't we have all the answers?
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think you even see that play out throughout scripture because like you'll see like how quickly the Israelites will go from like worshiping God to just like completely forgetting that God's a thing.
SPEAKER_00It's like And there's jump cuts and that's how I'd say like the Bible doesn't read about like or write about like the good times very often because the the the the the arc of the story is not about an overall sense of faithfulness, right? It's an overall sense of rebellion that needs redemption, you know? So that's that's such a good thought, man. I love that. Uh well, childbirth, obviously very important. Uh you guys are laughing because you know the doozy of a question about to get you to. Um I just like that transition. First Timothy 2, 13 through 15. We've talked about it a little bit on the podcast. I'm gonna read it for us right now. Uh it says, uh I'm gonna actually start at verse 11. It says, Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control. That is a complicated passage to read exegetically. It's difficult to interpret. It's Paul himself, when he's writing this Timothy 8, roots this passage in what we just are talking about and reading. What the heck does Paul mean there?
SPEAKER_03What's going on, guys? Yeah. Well, I would say uh a couple things. One, there's a reason why even Peter said sometimes Paul writes things that are hard to understand. Uh because this is probably like, if not the most, I would say top five most debated passages in all of Scripture because there's just so much, like, what could he mean by this? I do want to point to one thing before we get really into that, because it does say in there it says that Eve was deceived, not Adam. Yeah. And so that does I want to point out that Adam obviously still sinned as well. He just willfully sinned. He knew what he was doing and he chose to do it. Whereas Eve was deceived by the serpent. That's important to point out. The second thing I point out in there is you have to take into the context of what he's saying. And so when I look at this, I really don't think I think you'd have a hard time getting to the point of saying that Paul means that literally women will be saved, like their eternal salvation is secured by the act of childbirth. Because I think that if you argue that way, you get into a contradiction of his own teaching that we're saved by grace through faith and not by works. Uh, but it would also mean that women who cannot have children uh are then incapable of being saved because they cannot physically complete the act. And then it also, what about women who die in childbirth? Because he says childbirth and if you continue on in all these markers of the faith. So it's like, well, what happens if you die in childbirth? Have you actually accomplished your purpose then?
SPEAKER_00There's another layer even to that, I think, with like Paul, we forget about Paul's main teaching around marriage, is actually like, I think it's good that you remain as you currently are unless you burn with passion. So Paul definitely is saying that there is a good and right way of like celibacy, right? And so that runs into some issues if women have to be saved specifically through childbearing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I agree. What I think also what has to be first said in this, because that passage is twofold. Like on the front end, it talks about what we've already talked about on this podcast of biblical male headship. And it's specifically focusing on within the office of pastors, uh overseers, elders, whatever word you want to give it, which is all the next chapter in in that letter. So it's talking about biblical male headship, which I think it is worth noting before we get back to childbirth. He does point male headship within the home and within the church, the the home of the body of the home of Christ, the body of Christ. That uh men, biblically qualified men are called to lead. And he points to that to a creation issue. And so that's that's where I think. Yes, and we talked about that weeks ago when we were talking about in the confines of marriage. This is actually within church leadership, is the confines, is really what the purpose of this passage is, but but it's pointing towards this in regards to Adam and Eve as the uh case study of why this is the way. It's the way God made it pre-fall, is is what he says. But then from there, he then mentions the fall, as you mentioned, uh Nathan, and then he talks about consequences and he brings up that childbearing issue. It says she will be saved through childbearing. And and I would agree with everything Nathan said. Obviously, this isn't about spiritual salvation because that would be running in contradiction to everything Paul has already written. Um that word there for saved, it comes down to what does that mean? And is he speaking of spiritual salvation? And there's a lot of commentaries that can be read on this, but that Greek word is used many times in the scriptures, and it's not always regarding spiritual salvation. Sometimes it's just talking about being rescued, it's talking about being preserved, it's being saved in a physical sense, you know, other ways.
SPEAKER_00Well, sanctification is used. Like there's not really different biblical categories because they're wrapped up together. It's the same word in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02And so then that means there has to be that means there is an outlet that Paul's alluding to outside of just spiritual salvation justification, because we know justification comes through faith. There's multiple ways you could explain that. One I've heard over the years that I think is interesting is that you know he does say in there, you know, that Eve uh Eve was deceived first, all the stuff you just talked about, and kind of sound Debbie Downer on women, in other words, in that point. But then he says she's gonna be saved through childbearing. That word saved, it could be understood that she'd be rescued from that stigma of her of her uh sin, that she's remembered for sinning first, but she's gonna be saved from this through childbearing, which then is the connection of the curse to her sin. Um so the idea that that it's ultimately being preserved from that that curse, that that she's not gonna be remembered for this forever. Instead, she's gonna be remembered for bringing Christ into the world through the lineage uh and the offspring of the woman. So it can mean different things, is kind of how I would word it, I guess, simply. And what does Paul mean? It's a little bit of a mystery, but I think we all know what he does not mean is spiritual salvation. I think that's what we have to agree on, is that's not the point. That he's not saying that to your point, Corbin, women are only going to get saved if they get married and have babies. That would not make sense.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think there are a lot of different ways to even read that. They're like, where I think you can't even read this as Paul is saying salvation because he means salvation, but he's talking about for like it's in the context of he says in verse 13 for Adam was born first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. It doesn't then say yet she and immediately switch it to all women. Like it seems like it's he may even be talking about Eve there, where it's like Eve is placing faith in God's promise by having children. Remember, Proto-Vangelion from last week, right? And so by and that's why he then goes on, he says if they continue in faith and love with self-control, right? So if they are believing in God's promises, they're saved through this, right? And so it's not necessarily the childbearing that's doing a lot of the work there. And we just hear that because we hear some ways that this passage has actually been misapplied in the past, where it's like, therefore, you have to have kids to be saved. And that's like not biblical, uh, in any sense of the word. And so uh yeah, definitely a lot of ways. Again, one of those where I I think there's not necessarily one strictly one faithful answer, but I think we do need to be able to say, This is a difficult question, right? You said rightly, like there are a lot of debates in the Bible. Most of them are about like the placing of the word the, right? It's not there are very few places where it's like truly contentious interpretation, right? Yeah stuff. And it's really most of it today that we find in at least in the evangelical like orthodox spaces, is uh is has to do with women in ministry stuff. Yeah. It has to do with this this passage, right? Like it's a lot of it is there. And so it is, it's important to know what you believe about this passage.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, and I and I do think, and this is I kind of thought this is not the childbearing part, but I you'll often hear you know people who are more egalitarian. Yeah, you know, the the view that they'll take is okay, well, everything that that's being talked about by Paul, it's contextualized to the to that history, what's happening in that city, what's happening in that church. And this is kind of the rebuttal to that because it's he's talking, he references creation. Yeah. He doesn't reference like, hey, the temple they do this, so we're gonna be differently. It's literally, hey, Adam was created first. Uh but in in context of it, I there's a I was looking this up and researching it a little bit, and what I came across was I thought something I really liked that talked about there is a difference between being saved through something and being saved by something. Yeah. Right. And so the through here is not that you were being saved by it, but rather it's like you're going to be saved even though you're enduring it, if that makes sense. Right. That you're gonna endure this curse, you're gonna endure the pain, but you're saved through it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, well, it means you're progressively coming to experience the all aspects of your salvation too, with that, in that sense, where I would argue too, like thorns and thistles, I know we haven't gotten to the man's curse yet, but you're experiencing as you're toiling as a man and enduring that curse, if you will, of the ground, you are experiencing salvation, not through your work, but you are seeing God work through that and and the redemption that comes through that of the work of your hands is now being redeemed, and God's giving you purpose in your work. And so to that same point, I think you know, women do uniquely experience God in that sense through through childbirth, through that whole miracle. And and it there is part of that where I think they are progressively coming to experience all aspects of what that means, to be to have God reconciled, have themselves reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ and how that curse is now lifted. So I think it's just it's a complicated thing, but I think you're right. Salvation, it doesn't have to all be justification. I think you said earlier, it's more about the sanctification, Corbin, than experiencing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think, yeah, again, lots of good ways to take this. I have the I know I'd say I don't have the Greek pulled up in front of me, I do, but uh there's just I'm honestly too sick to even go into all that right now. Uh and so we'll figure it out uh and and come back to you next week and have a definitive answer about this is exactly the correct thing. We've answered it for the church forever. Uh I will probably not be on the podcast, and I'm okay with that. It won't be on there, but you're just gonna have to trust us that it happened. Uh so we went on from there, and I am gonna skip over. We've talked a lot, I think, already about the kind of the second element of the curse there. We've talked a lot about what it means for like resistance in the household and why like women push back against male leadership, and male leadership is sometimes sinful, right? And I think we've talked about that a couple times the last few weeks, so I want to keep moving. But we do move on to the curse of man. And this is where toil enters the scene in the garden. Uh you actually you mentioned some interesting things about toil, but at first, I guess like when we say toil enters the scene, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, so actually it's interesting in the Greek, it is the same word, that word toil, which it's interesting that in 316 it's translated to pain, but in 317 it's translated to toil. Because it's actually the same word in the Hebrew there, which it just it means suffering. It means toil and pain. Uh and so the idea here is that now, whereas once Adam worked the ground, and we can assume rightfully that because it was pre-fall, that it was a while, it might have been like a physically weary type of a task, it wasn't like uh making him exhausted. It wasn't hurt, it didn't, it wasn't painful, it wasn't like a struggle that came with it.
SPEAKER_00It's like if you this is this is like a lame analogy, but if you work out and you like working out, not everybody does, but if you like working out, there's a good feeling from exerting yourself and like doing the best you can. And I think like there's definitely that element there. And you're gonna get good sleep.
SPEAKER_03Like if you go and like you do good work and you actually weary yourself, like you're gonna be tired. There's a difference between that and like this is miserable. Like it's sweating, and you're you know, it's like there's actual real strenuous labor that goes into this now. So there's that pain that's gonna get associated they didn't have before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's good. Well, um, I guess to to keep building off that, you mentioned um, I don't know if you even remember this. It may have just been in second service, I don't even know if it was in both. But you talked about how because we don't grow stuff, we aren't maybe like super connected to this picture of what toil can be. First, like maybe why why why would someone that is like connected to something like food, right, and growing things, why would they be more connected? And then two, do you think like, is there something that we've lost? Like, should we be more connected to those systems? Like, do we understand the biblical narrative better? Right? Like, if we have maybe not like we're not farmers, but like we're gardeners, right? And stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02All of us do it again. Communal living. That's never gone wrong.
SPEAKER_00I saw this quote the other day, and I can't remember who it was by, but it was it was such a bar. This is pretty unrelated, actually. It's just it has the word gardener in it. But it's like God has made death a gardener. I think that's such a cool bar. Fire, bro. It is. It is.
SPEAKER_03It is. Um yeah. Well, I think I think going into it, I think one, I don't think you have to be tied directly to what Adam was doing to understand what this concept is. I mean, literally, you can go the next chapter, and Abel is a shepherd. Abel's not a farmer, right? And so I think you can see you have to be physically tied to it to experience it uh in that way. And also, if we were gonna make that argument, well, then all the farmers today better stop using combines and machines. You better start just going back, you better get the oxen ready and pull out the old stone pickaxe and get to work. You know what I'm saying? And so you kind of see like that uh that if you were gonna go into that, that that kind of a mentality behind it. But I will say it's actually an important question. This goes back to the childbirth thing, but there have been people over time who have said that women biblically should not take epidurals because you are basically diminishing God's curse. Like you're you're you're not fulfilling what God said you were gonna fulfill by taking an epidural. Yeah, it's God's design. It's like, well, in that case, turn off the combine and get to work with your hands, man. Like get back out in the field if we're gonna go with epidermis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I don't think you necessarily have to be physically tied to it because I think spiritually, I think it was also it's a spiritual and an emotional toil that comes on top of a physical toil as well.
SPEAKER_00Going to work stinks, even if you're not farming, right? Like we all I I know that feeling, right? There are morning, I'm I'm not, if you can't hear telling, I think I mentioned already, I'm not feeling that great. Like I woke up and I was like, ugh, this morning, you know? That's part of toil, right? It's the circumstances and the hard parts of life that that make it things that even we're supposed to find some fulfillment in. It's like, ah, even this is broken, man. That that does stink. I do think though, there is some value in having some sort of connection. I don't think you have to be a gardener or something like that. But I think understanding like the difficulty that goes into doing, like, even in the last hundred years, the developments we've made in agricultural technology and things like that make it so much easier. It is still like not profitable, even to be a you can't support a family unless you are like a multi-million acre farmer or you're selling things at farmers markets for ridiculous prices. Like you can't be like a traditional business and be a farmer because it's so hard to grow things.
SPEAKER_02Well, what I think's fascinating, excuse me, on the other side of it, when you look into more of an urban context, is how you can't escape that curse either, though. Because even though you fast forward all these thousands of years and we're not growing our own stuff and we're not dealing with that, it's still hard to feed a family. Yeah, yeah. Like it's still like and people are in debt, and it's just a it's a struggle to make ends meet. And then you always like finally when you feel like you get ahead in life and maybe you got that raise or you had that unexpected blessing, then something breaks. You know, somebody's going to the ER or there's some unexpected bill. And it's just like these are just this is the curse. And it's like we've always told ourselves we'll escape from it, and we can build some utopia universe if we just have enough control in our lives and enough money and enough this and that. And it's it's a fallacy, it's not true. It's like it doesn't matter who you are in what urban context you're you find yourself in, you have the same rural lesson. It's like thorns and thistles, this does not work, and you're not gonna get what you really are looking for.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. I'm gonna I'm gonna pause that there because I want to come back to that. Yeah. Because I do think it leads to an interesting question. But before we move off of labor and toil completely, you've talked, I think very rightly, there's a lot of frustration in thorns and thistles and toil. How how do we how do we engage with like those real frustrations? Like, how do we talk to ourselves when I'm like, man, I'm just fed up with work? Right? Like, like what is the right response there uh on an individual level?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think I think well, two things. One the reality that you have to work as part of the toil. Like you're gonna have to work to eat. Even Paul said that if you don't work, you don't get to eat. You don't get to eat, you know what I'm saying? And so that's a reality that exists. But number two, there's a personal side of it, and I think we have to be careful that we don't sometimes ascribe to God what we do to ourselves, that sometimes it's like maybe you're not in the right career, maybe not doing the right thing. But even if you are doing what you need to do, and there's that toil aspect that comes into it. I think what Paul talked about in I and I quoted it in Colossians 3, 23, and 24, that whatever you do, work, work heartily for the Lord, like that he's who you're working for. I think that's important because in the context of that passage, he's even bringing up slaves. Yeah. And he's like, hey, if you're a slave, like you you can't change the fact that you're a slave, but you can work really heartily as for the Lord and serve the Lord in this. Like, and that's that's literally the word he gives is whatever your task is.
SPEAKER_00In the face of suffering, in the face of injustice, right?
SPEAKER_03Even that's yeah, it's work heartily for it. I mean, because you're serving the Lord, you're not serving yourself.
SPEAKER_02And what I think you also have to just remind yourself through that is that God has you in that to shape you through all that, through the thorns and thistles. And this gets to the redemptive part of part of Christ. That, you know, I know Nathan preached on all this, that ultimately through Christ, we can experience God amidst this curse, and God removes the power and the strongholds of the curse, because we experience life amidst the turmoil. And uh Peter, I pulled up in 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 6, he says, In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold, that perishes through it, is tested by fire, that it may be found uh to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. And so he's pointing towards all trials and tests, which really this all falls under the same umbrella. It's he's saying, These things, God's putting you through it to refine you. And and and really you look at that that imagery of gold and precious metals, and how do you refine gold? You turn up the temperature and you remove impurities. That's what you do. And it's the same kind of picture in our lives. God puts us through the thorns and thistles and all those impurities, all the the painful things, because it actually brings those impurities in our heart up, you know, to the forefront, and it's visible through that trial. We're exposed. And then God's desire is that he would wipe away that impurity, that he would make us more like Christ through it. So you have to, I guess you have to just remind yourself, Corbin, to answer your original question. What do you do? I think you just have to remind yourself that God is not mean, He is, but He is wanting you to go through this because He's trying to shape you through this process.
SPEAKER_00God's not mean, but He is sovereign. Yes. And I think that's something that we do get a little uncomfortable with is like God has allowed like the consequences of sin to remain. Yeah. Because He has a purpose in that. Exactly. And that doesn't make God the author of sin, that doesn't make God the author of suffering.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00That's not what we're saying. But there's a very clear biblical case to be made that God allows things like suffering and toil and things to remain because that is his means by which he's going to redeem and purify his people. It is that he purchases them with Jesus, amen. But that he's working out their salvation so that at the day of resurrection they'd be brought to like they they would go before the throne of God and they'd be blameless and spotless and made clean, uh, as especially as that work is finished, like when we die and get to be with God.
SPEAKER_03And I I think it's a really important reminder, like that right there for us today, because we live in a culture and a time in humanity where we live in the age of convenience, where everything is about making your life as comfortable as humanly possible. I remember the toil and the struggle of you said to go drive to a store if you wanted to pick something up, but now it can just be delivered to you. It's like literally everything we do. I'm a survivor, you know? But everything but everything that we do though today as humanity, it's designed to make your life as comfortable as possible. That's true. And and so we kind of rebel against the idea of discomfort, but no one grows in comfort. Like you just don't. You're not sharpened, you don't get stronger, like you're you're not changed, you don't persevere. You can just do scroll and distract yourself all day long. But at the end of the day, no real progress is being made in your life whenever you have nothing happening.
SPEAKER_02And the presence of the curse is supposed to point us towards hope for for the new heavens and the new earth. And that's kind of the point, too. I think if you didn't have that, or if it you lost sight of it, you got so comfortable, you would miss that bigger story of scripture, which is this is not our home, this is not our final place, and this is ultimately we're just passing through the world as it is today, but it makes us long for heaven. Like us living with thorns and thistles should make us not happy and make us long and groan for heaven. And that's the idea, is what Paul's getting to in Romans 8 when he says, even all of creation is groaning, that this this stinks, this is not good. And and and that's what God declared right there in the garden that this isn't good. This is this is broken, and now we long for what he has for us for the future.
SPEAKER_00You said uh a line that I I resonated with, right? Like an apologetic for this all being true is that all of life is us trying to fix basically the boo-boos caused by these corruptions of the world. Yeah, right. That we work because we don't have food readily available to us, right? That we our professions are all centered around things like I'm gonna be a doctor, right? Sickness wasn't a thing, but I'm gonna be a doctor, right? I'm gonna be a farmer because it's hard to grow things, I'm gonna be a businessman because I need to acquire resources to provide things and disperse things, and uh it's there's no bounty readily available to me. That's all these these all of our jobs today, it's crazy, right? Like I'm I'm a Mason or I'm a you know HVAC guy or whatever because I'm building a home that can cause that someone doesn't have shelter inherently and they don't have it in a safe place inherently, like it's every single piece of our life is centered around fixing these things, providing solutions, you know. Uh but I guess that constant presence, I think something that I see a lot from Christians today is like sort of an apathy to those realities. Um have we grown too numb to the consequences of the fall? Do we not care enough? What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_03I I would say I think there's some people probably um who've hit that point, but I think really for a lot of people, I don't know if that numb is the right word. Because I think that most people, uh Christian or not, you don't have to, it doesn't take much for you to see the world's broken. Like it doesn't take much to recognize, hey, this isn't right, this is what it should be. I think that reality is there for most people. I think what I've seen, and we kind of talked about what Jonathan just said about like the need to essentially it points you towards your need for God, it points you to intervene. I think for some people, what we often see is the adverse effect where they see the suffering and it points them to, well, where is God? Why is God? Like, how could a loving God allow the suffering that we see? So I think it actually it ends up working itself out into uh almost like an atheistic argument against God is well, the fact that we see suffering and that God has not made our lives on this earth perfect would point to the fact that is God actually even real.
SPEAKER_00Is this not because it's not my standard of good? Yeah, yeah. And it's a very subjective standard. If God is real, he must be unjust, right? It's these things that are placing our judgment and human morality and human standards of what is good and what is not upon a wholly separate set of our God, you know.
SPEAKER_02I think it's interesting too when you consider your question, Corbin, of like who's the one you're asking, I guess. Because you know, the whole have we become numb? I I would argue maybe in an American context, it's more just entitled and spoiled. Because I think contextually in our society, we've had about a hundred years of unprecedented world prosperity, you know, in our nation. And and because of that, generationally, we've been raised in comfort with very little pain. I mean, and I know there's some people that have more pain than others, and I'm not trying to negate listeners' pain that's listening to me. But if you're just looking at world history in like America for the last hundred years, we've been killing it. It's been pretty good, it's been pretty solid. And and even where things this, there is thorns and thistles still, but are you talking about the thorns and thistles that our ancestors had? No, like it really isn't. We've had uh uncomparable convenience brought to us uh in America and in our society, which then leads ultimately to a natural spoiling of us. I mean, I just really believe that. That in this I'm preaching it myself, that we don't want to be inconvenienced because we've been told we shouldn't. Um we want everything to be instant and we want all gratification now because we've been trained, that's how the world operates. So when we don't get what we want and we can't get what we want, because the world is indeed still broken, then we get mad at God as if we were entitled to it altogether. And it's like I do think there maybe is a a cultural problem that we have here where we are intolerant of pain, maybe in our society, because we haven't gone through pain, um, like other parts of the world. And and then we blame God for the pain when the reality is if we're really put on a bigger global vision, we are enduring way less pain than many people all around the world, and we're acting like a bunch of entitled two-year-olds. And and we just miss that. Um, when you consider one out of seven Christians around the world are persecuted right now, and you consider what we go through in in as a society that we complain about in our culture, I just sometimes wonder how how I wonder if how we view reality as actually fair in a more global perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's good. Well, and it's I think some of that what I was trying to kind of get at is that those things are supposed to be sad and they're supposed to be frustrating. And I think maybe numb is the wrong word, but I do think you're right, like that we assume that they shouldn't be a part of life. Yeah with you explaining the way, or even like some people are gonna disagree with me on this. I think I've mentioned this to you guys before. I get weird about even like what we call like a funeral celebration of life, just because like death is supposed to be sad, yeah, right? It's not how things ought to be, right? Like there's all sorts of and you know, I don't have a bone to pick if you did that for your family, and that's that's great, whatever, you know. But I do think like we have this fear of acknowledging the reality of suffering. Yeah. And that the point that like God says, like, hey, this is going to be part of the world for a while. And I'm telling a story of redemption that's beautiful, but it takes time, right? Not because God couldn't step it all away, but because God says that this is the most perfect story to tell. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know? Um well we also I I'll add to that too, Corbin. I think one problem that people have is they think they're the only ones going through suffering. Because we've now in a modern social media world, no one's posting their suffering. I mean, in general, it's the highlight reel. That's it.
SPEAKER_00Look at my divorce guy, check it out.
SPEAKER_02My rebellious teenager, my broken marriage. Let's take a picture. Well, and because of that, because you only see everybody's highlights, you're always the only one, you're the one that thinks you're the only one that has the valley. When the reality is everybody is in that, but we put on that victim mentality because we think, oh, we're the only one that God is punishing. He's smiting me and no one else. And it's like actually, you're just looking at false reality of everybody else. You're reading the headlines and you're not actually reading the fine print of people's lives. But it sets unfair expectations in through comparison.
SPEAKER_03And I think a lot of people too, they ignore their own part in it. And I think that's a big issue for a lot of people. It's that victim mentality, like you talked about, but it's the it's like, oh, well, all these people have left. And it's like, well, maybe you're the problem. Like maybe you're the reason that that happened, like to some of these things. You know, it's like at a certain point we have to recognize we make mistakes and we do things that we shouldn't do. And sometimes we ascribe to God what we do to ourselves. Oh man, I'm exhausted. Why will God not give me rest? And it's like, we spent four hours looking at your phone before you went to bed last night. Like maybe you're part of the issue here. Like maybe it's not God's fault that you're tired. You're not going to sleep, like you're not resting.
SPEAKER_04That's good.
SPEAKER_03You know? But I think also, and I mentioned this in the sermon, in order to have good news, you have to have bad news. And so, like, this is the bad news. And the bad news points you towards your need for the good news. Uh and so I think that's an important aspect of it, too, is that you should recognize it.
SPEAKER_00I uh I loved what you said, kind of talking about like fundamentally we deserve death, right? Like, that's not a very modern take. Like, we don't like that kind of language when we talk about our responsibility and our condition. Even in churches today, we get a lot of people that get uncomfortable when you say things like, hey, like, you're basically sinful, right? Like you were you were born sinful, right? And you need redemption, even if you didn't do anything wrong, right? Like you've inherited a sinful condition. Um and I I had a mentor uh who is uh a boss of mine, I guess not the last place I worked with, but a place before that. And he would he would sell this to his kids all the time. It just blew my mind. Uh but whenever his kids go, that's not fair, we're obsessed with fairness. He goes, Oh yeah, well, what is fair? And his kids would sign, they go, fair as hell. And so it is, we we we in many ways are a culture that's obsessed with our idea of fairness, and our idea of fairness has very little to do with us engaging in any suffering or anything that we view as this, even like minor slight against our our view of like what we deserve or what's fair and things like that. And it and it is, it's a very American phenomenon. I mean, you don't hear a lot of people in the Middle East today going, well, that's just not fair. They say, no, it's just like please stop bombing us, right? Like stuff like that. That's heavy, but you know. And it is, it puts into perspective. And I don't say that's uh to punch down. I think sometimes we can get in these cycles where we're like you it's not your fault you live in the first world. Like it's a it's a blessing, right? Uh but I think do you think we we we could do with some perspective every now and then? Uh I think the global church has something to really speak into that that we don't talk about a ton. I agree.
SPEAKER_02And you have to be and you have to look for the perspective, I think, because so you're exactly right that we shouldn't feel bad that we live in America. I'm I thank God I live in America. I'm a proud American. I'm glad to be here. But but all that being said, I think if if you live in your own little echo chamber all the time, this goes into any any arena of life, you're you're gonna lose perspective. And this goes into global aspects of just looking at the geopolitical landscape of society. Like if you only live in your own bubble, you're gonna miss the blessings that God has given you uniquely in your own land. Uh and then to your to that point, even beyond that, even just getting outside of your own little group. Like if all you're doing is looking at everybody else's blessings in your own little area, you're just trying to uh you know keep up with the Joneses, it's like, well, then you're not gonna be happy. Yeah. Like maybe look at around the world at how many people have less than you, and maybe that'll change your perspective.
SPEAKER_03And I think too, this is the reason why you see scripture, it constantly points to this idea of take every thought captive, deny yourself daily, take up your cross daily, have have be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Like that's all of these things, it's the it's the human condition. And if your prescription to the human condition is just I'm gonna try harder not to be like that, it's not gonna be very successful for you. What needs to happen is you need to be transformed by the gospel. Like that's the reason Christ came, was not so that not so that you could be a better person, but so that you could be transformed by the redeeming work of Christ. Like that's it's I think that's a very important detail.
SPEAKER_00It's a distinction even there that, like, yes, like transformation does make us in many senses more morally right in that like God sanctifies us, right? But it the point of sanctification is not just that you be a better person. And I think that's a misunderstanding. And there are people that walk into church doors all across this country every single week, and that is their understanding of Christianity, and hear that like if that's your understanding of Christianity is just that God died to make me a good person, you're going to hell, right? That's not the gospel, right? And it is, it's such an important, like, we have to be very careful and check our hearts because we can say, like, I don't believe that, and functionally, it's like this is what I seem to be living, is that I'm earning something or something like that. Um but man, I I love like what you said just about echo chambers. I think so often we think about echo chambers in this sense of like political echo chambers, or like, you know, especially like you know, left versus right, right, or something like that. I think that there is a real thing like a class echo chamber. Right, not to get a little too like Marxy on you or anything like that. That's right. But it is like if all the things you do are spend time with rich people, or all the things you do are spend time with poor people, right? Like you're not getting a full picture of like the reality of the human experience. And there's a reason for those of us in America, this is more common. The Bible says, like, blessed are the poor. Right? Like there's a perspective that comes from dependence.
SPEAKER_02Why James also says don't give favoritism to the rich people. That's right. It's like it's like God made us one body. And to that point, there's nothing wrong with being rich or broke. At the end of the day, I mean, people are going to be on different ends of the spectrum. That's just the reality of life. But but it's you shouldn't be defined by that. But but the pro unfortunate reality is we by nature, you know, birds of a feather will flock together. And and but what that can do is create really toxic wastelands on both ends of the spectrum, which I'm glad you brought that up, because on the poverty spectrum, if if all you're if you're broke and all you are is with other broke people, probably what's gonna happen is you're gonna have very cynical, a very cynical perspective on everybody else that is above you. It gets into that whole Marxist mindset of what you were alluding to. But then on the other end, if you're a very rich person, all you hang out with is rich people, you're probably gonna be really upset that you're not rich enough. And then you're also because you're gonna be comparing to people that are always richer than you. And then you're probably also gonna have less compassion and care for those that have less than you if you're only around people that have as much or more than you. Um, you become lost in that reality. So it's just it's our perception becomes our reality. And and and so everything you can do to open up your perspective is good. That's why I believe church is one of the greatest gifts of the world for many reasons, but this is one of them. It actually opens up your perspective.
SPEAKER_00The most radical thing about the New Testament church in the time in which it was formed, is there are many things, right? But easily is the the the breaking down of class walls.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a slave and a slave owner supposed to get along.
SPEAKER_00That is something that's lauded in our society. Yeah. It is. Like we love that in American culture, right? Like the idea of someone they like was down pulling themselves out of their bootstraps, or even just like the idea of like there's a place at the table for everyone rich or poor, right? It's a very democratic ideal. That is a shameful thing in Roman culture, right? It isn't a shameful thing to have to do to spend time with slaves. Yeah, right. And and James, right, I love that you bring it up specifically. Calls out, he says, hey, you're not letting the poor people eat with you.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00That's he says that's sin.
SPEAKER_02And what we do in the West instead is we'll put on philanthropic fundraisers full of rich people helping poor people, but never actually spending time with the poor people themselves. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00That may cost some pushback. And I'll challenge, if there's a lot of pushback in you right now, I would say that in the same way we talked about in the sermon, that there's the Bible says you're gonna have to push back to things like Metalheadship. The Bible would also say you're gonna have to push back if this is the thing you struggle with because you can't serve God in money.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell And to be clear, I've been to rich people philanthropy. Fundraisers, many of them, and it's not those events are not bad, but they're not. But so so I'm casting stones at myself. There's nothing wrong at going at those. My point is but it cannot replace. That's the point. Like if this then makes you feel like you've done something or that you now know people that are different than you, it's like, no, you don't. Go have a conversation with them. Go have a Bible study with one of them at your church of somebody that's completely different than you, and let that change your perspective. That's a lot harder work.
SPEAKER_00I think even more than just, and I I do think like absolutely changes our perspective, but it's not just a lens of our self-actualization. Like the point is also that we're just supposed to be in fellowship together. Yes. And there's something that even today is inherently radical with like someone that does not look like they have a lot of money, engaging with someone that looks like there's there's a witness to that of like there's a power here that's breaking down the dividing wall. Absolutely. That's the testimony of so much of the New Testament, especially like the book of Galatians, right? The book of James, right, is that partialism is dead, right? The gospel unifies, right? We have a new king. Let's go and serve.
SPEAKER_02And we're all broke without Christ. That's right.
SPEAKER_03And they were all broke without him. In that same diversity, outside of just poor and rich, it's also just like we see different cultures. Like, how many cultures do we have represented just in Austin Baptist Church? I know. And how amazing is it that we get to worship people who they grew up in Africa, they grew up in Asia, they grew up in a completely different culture, but we can all come together on Sunday morning and we can serve the same God, we can worship the same God, and we can all be united in ministry. And I think like Bible fellowship groups, you can look at them and you're gonna see people in that room who have completely different perspectives and different ideas than you. And there's something so beautiful about that, about the intermixing of culture. So I think that's important to talk about too, especially because there is like now a push in some more extreme right-wing Christians that's like, oh, hey, no, like white, like American exceptionalism and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Now you see things like, I mean, anti-Semitism in the church is almost like I almost said commonplace, but unlike becoming pretty common. Yeah, it's even not just the church, just in culture in general, it's becoming common. And so it is, there's definitely places where this is this is really common for thousands of years.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_00There's some good user-submitted questions if we have time. Uh the ones for this week weren't that related, so we may we may dig those up. But we'll see. Yeah. But I want to, before we get done uh with the the questions I prepared, I have one more. Uh, and I'm gonna kind of reframe this because of everything we talked about. We talked a lot about um kind of the reality of of poverty and the reality of suffering, and we're saying that these things, God has purposes in them. I think that sounds well and good until there's this very complicated question of then what is the church supposed to do about suffering? What is the church supposed to do are we just like we have used some of that language for better or for worse? Of like, well, God has purposes in it, so just like endure it. And I don't know if I would tell like someone that's struggling with some of these things, just endure it. So, what is the church's role in engaging with the consequences of all things like poverty, things like disease, right? Do we have a responsibility to make them all better? Do we have a responsibility to to teach people that the gospel should just overcome all of that, and therefore you don't need to worry about like what is I'd say those are probably two extremes that are both not right, but where are we supposed to fall?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think in that, I mean I think it pointing back to James when he talks about faith and works, talks about, hey, listen, if someone comes to you and they're like, hey, I'm cold and hungry, and you go, I'm gonna pray for you, that's useless. Like, what did you do for them? And so there is the look ahead, but I think the church is called to try to help meet the needs. And you'll oftentimes, and that's one of the beauty, beauties of church, and we don't talk about individuals who do this, but I know Jonathan probably knows far more of these stories than I do, but I know so many stories, speaking of just people who have money and people who are poorer, of some of the rich people in our church seeing suffering from someone and anonymously giving money to support them and to care for them. Um, and so I leave the church and as a whole, but also as individuals, like we're called to meet these needs, like Jesus talked about a care for widows and orphans. Like speaking about Rome, they would literally, there was a it was one of the habits they had is they had a child they didn't want, they would just put it out on the on the they'd leave it out to die.
SPEAKER_00And that figure of speech genuinely there won't be a big thing.
SPEAKER_03Genuinely they would leave it out to die, and Christians would come and rescue those babies. And so for a while it was actually one of the attacks on Christianity was that we were eating children. But really, we were like the idea of adopting a child.
SPEAKER_00Is those children were raised, actually that became one of the greatest apologetics in the ancient world for like this is a categorically different kind of faith that is changing everything about these people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And there's a reason why we, for instance, you were going to go to Guatemala and build houses and also share the gospel. There's a reason why we send we see we send missions teams around the world to plant what to put down wells, to provide medical missions. They're opportunities to then teach about the gospel. And I think that's the important thing to remember those. We can't separate the gospel from the humanitarian act.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I and I think I will say though, uh, in the same vein, we also don't make the gospel a condition of like us showing mercy. Correct. And I think those are the kind of two, the tensions we hold there. Is that and that was a hard thing for us, right? Is if you haven't heard, this is a good time to tell the story, I feel like. I didn't get to go to Guatemala last week. I was stuck in an airport for 28 hours total, over three days. Uh it was a nightmare. There were 5,000 cancellations where we were trying to fly out of with a group of 12. You can't really go on standby for a flight to Guatemala. It doesn't work like that. Wouldn't have been able to get there until like Thursday or Friday morning. We were supposed to leave Saturday morning, didn't work out. Uh but I've been telling the students this, like God had a purpose in that. We were still able to use our resources to bless the family that we were going to go get to minister to. They have a home now. It's a testimony to God's faithfulness in their lives, and it is preaching the gospel to them, right? Uh but sometimes I think we think it like the act of mercy has to look like how I want it on my terms, and it has to be clean and eat in a way that I can appreciate. And that's a challenge to that, is that God's will and ours are always the same.
SPEAKER_02Well, and also the our benevolence and our care and compassion, we're not the star. God is the star. That's the point. God doesn't need you. Yeah, we're we're making God the star through that act. We're saying, because this is who he is, this is what I'm doing. And so to your point, it's not about us getting all the credit. That's why even Jesus talks about that of don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that we don't need to have all the spotlight in all this. But but I will uh go back to kind of your question there. Jesus also calls the church uh the salt of the earth. And so we preserve that which is good. And and I also think it it's worthy of noting that Christians, without Christians throughout the last 2,000 years, the world would be a much darker place than it is today. Because when you look at the the the front grounds of all these things y'all have kind of talked about, the medical advancements, education, fostering, adopting, all these kind of compassion care things, you look at Christians leading the way across our globe, and that is a fact. Um so I don't think that that Christians should carry any kind of shame that like in the sense of like, oh, the church does nothing. The church does a lot. But when I'm talking about the global church, you get rid of the global church, havoc will come all across the world.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't say specifically like to stick up for the American church. Yeah, there have been some gotchas, some very famous things on TikTok about like, oh, like this lady's calling churches to see if they'll give her formula, right? To see if they're a faithful church or whatever. It's like people are saying, like, well, we have organizations that will do that already, like let me point you there. And it's like, that's not a church being unfaithful, right? Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well, I think there has to be discernment though. Like, because I I've worked at churches and I've had I've had benevolence calls, and there are people who have genuine needs. I remember this is a personal story. I remember being in college, you know, we lived at a house that was right across from like a low-income housing, and we would have people who would come and knock on our door, and at one point actually walked into the bathroom. I was taking a shower, and that was a fun story. That's crazy. But had a woman come up and be like, hey, I need money for diapers. And we said, We'll take you to HEB, we'll buy you diapers, we'll buy you groceries. She goes, No, I'll just take the cash. And it's just like, no, like that's not how this works. I'll but I'll go buy you food, I'll go buy you the diapers, but I'm not just gonna give anybody who walks up to my door cash all the time. It's an individual. So the church, I think, like you said, they have organizations that number one, are meant better, they fund that are better suited to serve that need. But there is also an element of discernment because there are people who do make a living from just calling churches and asking for benevolence and just asking for money.
SPEAKER_00I think that there's there's some layers there, even with that, where like a challenge for us is like on one hand, we want to be really wise to money, but when the Bible commands us to like, hey, like if someone like asks you that you give rightly, it doesn't say like as long as you're sure what they're gonna spend it on. And that's the other side of that that we get a little uncomfortable with sometimes, right? And I is is we do sometimes have to be like, hey, like, God, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna use this somehow.
SPEAKER_02Well and it gets and it gets into ultimately, I believe, living a spirit-filled life. Because I think I think it because this gets into a legalistic discussion very quickly, because anything plus faith is legalism at the end of the day. And so the Spirit of God leads us, He's the Spirit of Truth, and He'll lead us, I think, to righteously give what is already His that He's entrusted us. Um But at the same time, I don't believe that we are called to give every need, everything we have. That's right. Because also, to be fair, also biblically speaking, uh all of us are called to be stewards and we have needs. For instance, I have four needy people in my own house that I know God's also called me to provide for.
SPEAKER_00The Bible would condemn you not providing for your family at the cost of other things.
SPEAKER_02So it's complicated on that. And then also support the church, not as a pastor, but as a Christian. I believe I'm commanded to support the church and the work of the church. And so there's things like that that make this more complicated. And I will also say this is what I think just needs to be reminded. There will always be more needs than the church can meet. There will always be more physical needs, material needs than a church can meet. There will be more needs than a Christian can meet, which means then we have to have discernment because we acknowledge this world is broken and we are the salt of the earth, doing our best to preserve, but we cannot make it new. We cannot we cannot transform this world. And so we're gonna do the best we can by putting on band-aids and asking by God's grace, will he redeem and spiritually save through all this. But we can't put that undue pressure on ourselves because I think and this gets to the skeptical world where people look at churches or Christian agencies, well, they don't do enough. Well, what is enough is always my question.
SPEAKER_00Statistically, that's just that even that idea is just foolish to me.
SPEAKER_02It is, but it also comes down to then ultimately what is enough? Because usually if they're really boiling it down, it means they're not doing what they want them to do. But but but the reality is probably that organization or church is doing a lot of other things that they feel led and compelled to do. And so it gets into once again that spirit-driven discernment.
SPEAKER_00And I think there's I will say, in Ferris, there's a both and there that I do think that there's some real criticism sometimes for the way that stewardship is done in churches. Oh, of course. And I say that like as someone that lives and works in the context of a local church. Yeah. Right? Uh, but there is like even from like some theologically sound churches, right? There's not even some, like a lot. You know, even I'm sure there are times that we miss the mark, right? I don't think we do. I'm not I wouldn't be working here if I thought we were, you know, financially unfaithful, right? But it is like I think we have to take those criticisms and say, hey, sometimes there's bad actors in there, but also be willing to be like, you know what, but like we can own this more, we can be more faithful with our money, and we can be better students. I agree.
SPEAKER_02And we had a whole podcast on this a few uh months ago. If anybody wants to listen to it on charity partnership we were talking about. But I will say this I think it comes down to there's a difference between uh transparency, accountability, like you're saying. Those are good, healthy, godly things that I think every church member condemnation or accusation. Yes, versus just conspiracy and cynicism, which is which is we're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00Just got a secret Range Rover or whatever.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But I will say you get into that, and the the question that I think it has to be turned back as on Christians a lot of times it comes to is this like, okay, well, getting into the debate of well, should the church have why put lights in the worship center whenever we could have given that money to a charity? Yeah. Why why have a microphone whenever we could have just done it?
SPEAKER_00It does actually talk about this, right? It does in the New Testament with Judas. He says this could have been given to the poor.
SPEAKER_03That's the thing. It's like you can you can go to an extreme where it's like, okay, but like how much of your money are you then being generous with as a Christian?
SPEAKER_02I had a great conversation with one guy one time because he was bashing that the church gave donuts. And the church gives donuts, and our church gives donuts. Just like pretty much every Baptist church on earth gives donuts on a Sunday morning in some form or fashion. But he did that whole same argument of why weren't we giving this to the poor? And I just I looked at him and he was wearing like a polo brand shirt. I said, Well, why is your shirt polo? Like, why didn't you buy why didn't you just buy like a Haynes t-shirt, you know, that was a three-dollar shirt? Why didn't you give all that money on that hundred dollar polo to the poor? And he's like, Well, that's not what I'm talking about. I said, No, that's exactly what you're talking about, is the exact same standard. Because I said, if we're doing that, this gets to be a really ugly game of why are you driving the car? Could you not just Uber and sell that car and then give all that money to the poor? I was like, if you go down this slope, it is slippery and you will not like where this leads. And so it's it's a difficult point. And and uh, but I go back to what I said earlier: accountability, transparency, yes. But then on that other side, conspiracy cynicism, no. Those are unhealthy things. Um but all that being said, that's quite the rabbit trail from the I know. Yeah, we kind of we would have to do that. Honestly, I have no idea how we got here anymore.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think just this idea of like uh what what is the church's responsibility in responding to the curse to the reality of sin infecting the world that causes suffering, right? I I'll let you say I think the scriptures are clear that we have a place to engage with suffering, right? But that the responsibility of healing and curing suffering is not on the church. So we're supposed to be radical and obedient.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think and and one we goes back when you brought up this question. You know, you talked about this idea. Well, we can't just take sometimes tell people like, hey, just get through it. But there is a reality for some things that it like, and we don't talk about this thought with prayer. It's like there's a reason why Jesus prays, God will your be done and not mine. Is that there is that reality that like there are people that we will minister to who will just suffer. And like, like, and the gospel is not that, hey, your suffering on this earth is gonna get better. It's that something better is coming, yeah, right. And so that you can endure this. Like, Paul did not have a fun life whenever he was whenever he was doing his ministry. It wasn't an enjoyable experience for him. Like, go down the list, like shipwrecked, stoned, beaten, like all imprisoned, like all these things. But all of it in the midst of that was, hey, you know what? At the end of the day, I'm gonna serve God through this. And I think that's the important perspective is like once again, it's not about alleviating your source your symptoms on this earth all the time. It's an important part, but there are elements that we just can't fix. And so instead, what's let's fix what we can, but let's also point ahead to what's coming. So that's the heart.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, again, maybe it's a cop out to say, but like the most of the time with difficult questions like this, it's more about our heart, heart posture and obedience. It's like, hey, like God is not looking for you to just be good enough. Right. Like God is looking for you to just hey, like be faithful and obedient. Right. Like try to follow God's will to the best you can in this. Right. And God's gonna work out the rest, and He's gonna lead you for listening to the Spirit like we say we are. Um Well we have uh a few user-submitted questions that I would love to wrap with. I don't know if we're gonna get to all of them. There's some from last week that are really doozies, but I'll start with maybe more of a quote unquote softball. What we talked about a curse a lot. What is a curse? Right? Like what does that mean, really?
SPEAKER_03Let me give you like the uh the systematic theologian uh kind of definition that it is a divine declaration of judgment in the imposition of negative consequence due to sin and rebellion. Yeah. Like that is it's God's judgment on something. That there, hey, there's a curse. That is like there's gonna be a consequence to it.
SPEAKER_00Nathan's face is in the dictionary next to that. He's got his thumbs up because he just wrote it for you. So that's good. It's bad news. That's the non-scholy.
SPEAKER_02The non-scholarly definition is bad news. Bad news from God.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, that's good, right? Um Well, uh a couple of the other user ones we had submitted, I think we we touched on before, so I just want to fire them off the hip. We got again, did Adam and Eve go to heaven or hell? We answered this two weeks ago. Heaven. Yeah, we did. We'd say that they believe the promise here ties into what we answered earlier. Um what point of creation did Satan fall down out of God's line of angels? That's an interesting question. We're not really sure.
SPEAKER_02Anybody got a hot take?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it would have come before humanity was created. Yeah. Now, the hot take, I don't want to take too much time here.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_03Is there there is a whole debate about what actually caused Satan to fall. Yeah. And part of the debate is that was that Satan knew that ultimately God was going to create humanity and that humanity was going to have a unique place as image bearers. And so legitimately his rebellion was basically that humanity was going to steal the glory of angels, right? That humanity was going to get a unique position amongst creatures.
SPEAKER_00There have been a lot of tested answers to that question of why.
SPEAKER_03That's a that's way out there. Like it's not a question, it's not crazy, right? But it's like, but it's that's not like we can't back it up biblically. But I think it I think there's some truth to it. Like there's a reality because something caused Satan to stumble and fall.
SPEAKER_00Well, we we talked about it, we said in many senses that we we kind of came with this answer of it's it's pride and like Satan wants to be God, wants the possession of God. But I do think like there's some more web room there to understand that there are a lot of things that can drive that like deep of a decision. Like we do we tend to make Satan not to sympathize with Satan, right? But we make him a one-dimensional character in the Bible. And I think the story of Satan speaks to there's a deeper story there of like there's a lot going on. Um I think that it is a pretty good idea, like thought. Uh it's just not a biblical necessary. Like anti-biblical is the wrong word, like it's not like sin.
SPEAKER_03We don't have backing for it, right? Like it's this.
SPEAKER_00A lot of conjecture, a lot of tomism right now. Yeah. You know.
SPEAKER_03Second opinions.
SPEAKER_00Well, um we got some interesting questions last week. I don't know if you guys saw these in in the emails we had with Steven. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to run them by you if y'all are okay with this. We can we can cut this in post if y'all are like, I don't want to talk about this. But I do think it's an important topic. And I actually mentioned this to you earlier, even that I think it's an important thing to be talking about in the church today. Um there's a lot going on in the Middle East right now. Uh how should Christian this is so unrelated to our earlier topics, but how should Christians regard Israel? How should we think about Israel? We talked a little bit about there's a rise of anti-Semitism around today.
SPEAKER_02Um we've talked about this. I'll I'll reference back some old podcasts if y'all want to listen to it. Actually, we I did a podcast on this when uh the Gaza War broke out a couple years ago. How should we regard Israel? I do believe that we should regard Israel as God's, there's a promise. There's a land and there's a people and there's a promise. And and the people there, I know this gets into the replacement theology. Some would argue that the church is Israel essentially, and it replaced Israel rather as God's covenantal people. Through Israel, God brought the Messiah into this world. Jesus wasn't Jewish, Jesus is Jewish. He is a Jewish uh God man that is a savior of the world. Um, and so with that, we esteem Israel because God promised ultimately to bring salvation into the world through Israel. Jesus will return to Israel on the Mount of Olives. Uh, we will be a part of the new Jerusalem where He will rule and reign, uh, and there will be new heavens and new earth. All this is to say that God made covenantal promises in the Old Testament to Israel that I believe are irrevocable because the promises of God are irrevocable. They always stand. Um, and so with that, you read Romans 9 through 11 and you look at passages like that and you see that God has great plans for Israel that are to come. I preached through my take on that. A lot of that comes through the book of Revelation and ultimately when and how will this awakening happen. I would just argue that God's promises always stand firm and always stand true. So do I believe that God has promise and a special plan for that land? Absolutely. Um, do I believe that's where the world began was in the Middle East and it will end in the Middle East? Absolutely. I believe that all the stuff is biblically stated. Um do I believe that God has covenantal promises for Israel still yet to be fulfilled, some that that we'll see play out in the end times? Yes. But do I believe that Israel has sinful, broken people in there that make bad decisions? Yeah. I do believe that. Do I believe the government of Israel can be criticized? Yeah, I do. Um and and with that, I don't I don't think you have to then feel like you're a bad Christian to uh have sometimes criticisms for for diplomatic policy issues. But what we cannot become is anti-Israel and anti-Semitic, as you said earlier, because ultimately God has covenantal promises for Israel. So I mean, we pray for the peace of Jerusalem. That comes out of the book of Psalms. We we want to bless Israel. I do but hold fast to that promise in Genesis 12 where God tells Abraham that he will bless those who bless him and curse those who curse him, speaking of Israel. So I believe we should absolutely be supportive of Israel, but that does not also mean we can never criticize um diplomatic or policy decisions. I'll just state it that way.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think you you hit rightly, there there is there are kind of a breadth of opinions that are orthodox, like faithful opinions on the necessarily the role of Israel in things like the end times and and what grafted in means, and what what degree of promises have been fulfilled to have in like the cross and in the church. Right. And those are some honest, like fair questions to ask. Uh and I'd say like I probably lean more into fulfillment, not a replacement theology, a fulfillment theology. I told you this before. Um but I do think like even if you lean more into that kind of end of the theological discussion because of how you read things like Galatians, God still clearly has future promises for Israel. Clearly, like God has a special place because he chose them out of all the people on the earth. And so to then say, like, therefore I can be anti-Semitic when our Savior is Jewish. Yes. It's like uh that's just dumb to me.
SPEAKER_03Literally watched a podcast where they actually were like, I mean, was he actually Jewish? You know, it's like can't we really say that?
SPEAKER_00That's why we're engaged, it's because this has become maybe more in church like theology circles, more common. But it is, and there's a political discipleship issue in this country where like people are listening to political figures for their theological takes. Right. There are some disgruntled political figures who don't like Jewish people or Israel because of their opinions about things like the war in Gaza or excuse me, things like you know what's going on here in the States and interventionism and stuff like that. And so people are are angry, right? And so I think it's worth addressing.
SPEAKER_02I I agree. And just without Israel, just to remind everybody though, without Israel, you have no salvation. Without Israel, you have no Bible. Um, without Israel, you have no second coming of Christ. That's where he'll return. And I also will say if you if you look to how do I know God has special plans for Israel, we are still talking about Israel in 2026, that it is the most oppressed the Jewish people are the most oppressed people of human history in a nation the size of New Jersey, yet the whole world centers around that small little land and that people group. Why or how could that be possible? Maybe it's because the Bible is real and the story there is true, and these are God's covenantal people that He has special plans and purposes for, and the devil hates it. And so I think all that means to say, I would echo your sentiments, Corbin, that there's no place for anti-Semitism. And there's no place, I believe, either, for I guess, questioning that God has plans and purposes for Israel.
SPEAKER_00I mean, if you read the book of Isaiah and Jeremiah, like clearly there are some things there that's all there. Even if you believe that's where I come in an understanding from that is not necessarily that people will be saved on account of their Jewishness, but it's that God's going to save people because they're going to come to salvific understanding of who Jesus is, because God is faithful. And we're seeing that now, even there is a move of God that's happening in the Lord's. There's a move of God that's happening, and in spite of real serious, like vehement pushback sometimes from Israelis, there is a move of God. There is ministry that's happening, there are people that are being saved left away. And so we continue to pray for that. I do think an interesting follow-up question, this is where we'll end, uh, is this was asked alongside this is does the nation-state of Israel today, does that differ from the biblical kind of lamb promises of Israel? Like, is is the Netanyahu-led government the same thing as like what we talk about when we talk about like the Davidic kingship and stuff like that?
SPEAKER_02So the Jewish people are a people. Yeah. They're a people. And so when you look at the nation-state of Israel established in 1948, that is a nation that was established after World War II in response to once again the mistreatment of the Jews, to the genocidal treatment of them, which once again I believe shows God's sovereign favor to the Jewish people, that there still is a Jewish people and that they haven't been exterminated, even though for thousands of years people have tried to terminate them, and they just haven't quite gotten it done yet, nor will they ever, because God sovereignly rules and reigns. Um so, with that, the nation state and the government. Um that was established in 1948. Now, the people, the Jewish people, many of them reside right there in Israel. They do. I've seen them. They're also all around the world. I've been there, I've met many of them. I've seen them over myself. I've been to these places. And so the Jewish people, yes, I believe God has a promise for the people and for that land. But that promise for the people and land was still there even before 1948. In 1948, the nation-state of Israel was birthed, um, led by governing democratic rulers to this day. But is Netanyahu the same as King David? No. No, no. Um, so there's there's also a difference there. But but um this gets into what I was saying earlier, then of what can you critique in foreign policy? There's room to critique in foreign policy. I think for the Christian, it's fair to do so, to look at things with a discerning heart. All that being said, I will say for the record, I think Iran has been an existential threat to Israel and to us for the last 50 years. Um, and and I think it's tragic that they're led by uh the Islamic Republic there. And I think it's evil and it's deplorable what they've done for decades there. And I believe, I hope and I pray that a weakened Iran will lead to the flourishment of not just Israel, but the Middle East and the world as a whole.
SPEAKER_00Flourishing of Iran, right?
SPEAKER_02And and what why does God give the government? 1 Peter chapter 2, I believe it's chapter 2, Romans 13. It's to restrain evil and to reward good. That that is one of the primary purposes for the government. And so when I look at Iran being restrained through this, that to me is a good thing, worth celebrating, that they will be a weekend state, however, all this goes. And and will the people then be freed to be liberated and enjoy freedom? I hope and pray, but also this gets into biblical history. I believe there's going to be conflict. There's been conflict since since the days uh before Israel in that land to when God made a promise to a guy named Abram and he gave him a son named Isaac, and then there was another son named Ishmael that he sent off. And and since then there has been turmoil and there will continue to be turmoil. The book of Revelation tells us till Jesus returns. And so it's gonna continue, but could there be a season of better peace because of this? I hope so. I pray so. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00I've said this before about like many things, but if you're worried about something in the state of the world or the church, the good news is you have a very clear avenue to affect change of the world uh that we often diminish and say it's just like this thing that we do. And it's prayer. Like you can pray for Israel, you can pray for Iran, you can pray for the people there, you can pray for peace, you can pray for Gaza, you can pray for the people of Palestine, right? Like that is a real uh response that we should have as believers that we should be actively praying. When we talk about growing numb to the effects of the curse of sin, war is an effect of the curse of sin, right? Like, let's pray that God would redeem that and and and restore people and and and repair homes. I think that's such a good thought. Um any other closing thoughts there? I know that's like way off topic, but it was a good question. We had a little extra time. So we've we've hit some light reading today, right? Just you know, male headship and pain and childbirth, and what does it mean to be safe with each other? And also, what about Israel and Palestine? Lots of fun. Man, well, listeners, I hope that you are just not indignant in your seat right now. But uh no, I'm just kidding. Um, yeah, that's right. That's right, because we're right about everything. Uh Amen. Amen. Uh but man, listener, I I hope you have been uh enjoying tuning in with us. We love the the questions you have been submitting, even if they are not crazy on topic. I think they are interesting and we want to engage with them and kind of uh use this as a resource to to engage in discipleship with y'all and just say, hey, how can we better follow Jesus together? And so we just want to encourage you to keep leaning in. We have what, two weeks? One week left in this series? How many?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, one more. One more. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00One more week left in this series. Uh, we would love to keep hearing your questions on the book of Genesis as we wrap it up on Palm Sunday next week and we stay in the book of Genesis. How exciting that's gonna be. I think that's gonna be a doozy, and I'm looking forward to it. But we hope that you will join us next time on the Sizin ATX podcast.