Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Soul Killers: Pride
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Worship is the way that we show our appreciation of the Lord for who He is and what He has done. It is a moment where we set aside our own thoughts, worries, burdens, and interests; to glorify the Almighty God. But what is the opposite of worship? That would be Pride. Pride happens when we begin to turn from worshipping God and instead start to worship ourselves. Join Matt and Lindsey as they discuss the harmful effects of the Soul Killer: Pride.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we're glad you're joining us as we continue our Soul Killers series. Uh each week in the series, we are coordinating with the messages that are happening at Austin Baptist Church and talking about the opposite of the spiritual pathways that people walk through as they're growing in spiritual discipline with what we call soul killers, the things that instead of bringing life, tend to take it away. And so today in the conversation, I have with me my friend Lindsay Werner. Hello, Lindsay.
SPEAKER_05Hello, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, glad you're here joining us today. Uh Lindsay is a licensed professional counselor and also a worship leader here at Austin Baptist Church. And so, you know, Lindsay, what about a little bit of background here, you know, kind of just to color, color it in for the uh listening audience. Like, how long have you been doing licensed professional counseling? How long have you been helping lead worship?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's a good question. I've been a licensed professional counselor. This will be 15 years coming up. Uh, so it's been a wonderful journey, and I've loved being in that career path. Um, worship leading, I've been doing that since I was in junior high. Can you believe that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I led worship for our my fellow junior hires.
SPEAKER_01Fellow teens.
SPEAKER_05Fellow teens. And I'm pretty sure I nailed it back then. No, there you go. Yeah. So, and then, you know, as I got to college, I did our college band. And then we've been in Austin for a you know, a long time since college. So um, I've been able to sing at a bunch of different churches here since then. So it's been fun.
SPEAKER_01And I find it interesting, you know, and we were talking before the podcast on this, that when it comes to worship, which was the spiritual pathway that we uh spoke about at A at Austin Baptist Church yesterday, um, for many of us, well, no, I would say this, for all of us, we're we were worshipers long before we were professionals. And, you know, when we talk about expertise in these kind of things, I think sometimes people approach that idea of the spiritual act of worship as, well, it's just somebody up on the stage, the person who has a good voice, the person who can play piano or guitar or the spoons, whatever, you know. That yeah, spoons would be spoons, bluegrass.
SPEAKER_02Super sweet.
SPEAKER_01But they but that that's that that perception that people get is well, if I'm not a professional at this, then I'm not really worshiping. And the reality is we're all professional worshipers long before we're professional anything else.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so when we came to this part of the series of talking about the idea of worship as a spiritual pathway and considering what the soul killer was that we identified for it, um, we've identified pride or let's say pride slash anxiety, right? And so, I mean, what what led led you, Lindsay, in that in this thought process to thinking, yeah, if I if I'm thinking about the thing that happens that's the opposite of that discipline of worship, why is it pride or anxiety that people is the soul killer that rides along with worship?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so when when I think about worship, I think about being open and connected to God that I'm I'm able to see and visualize everything He's done for me and and just have that deep connection. And what gets in the way of connection on a human level and on a spiritual level is that anxiety. We get, we get self-protective, we get distracted, we get um, you know, we get anxious about the connection. Like, do they like us? Do they not like us? Do they love us? Do they do you love me? Do you love me not? Um, and so that still happens, I think, in that worship space where we humans show up. God's the same, he's not showing up differently, but in our experience um or in our distractions, that's why I use the word anxiety a lot. I'm like, we just get self-protective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean, when we really, when you really think about the core nature of that, where and because some people will say, Well, I'm, you know, I'm an anxious person. How how can that be pride? I think I'm not thinking very well of myself here, you know. I'm scared of, you know, either singing badly or or messing something up or committing myself to something that will then let me down. But I mean, it's still there still is the nature of pride in that because we are thinking about ourselves first in the in the conversation of how can I protect my own heart? How can I protect my own uh identity or vision that I have of myself? Because when we really think about what is pride in general, even for those that we would say we would label as, quote, prideful, even in the worship sphere, well, it's all about me, it's all about my voice, it's all about all that kind of stuff. Again, it's uh why this functions as the opposite of uh the opposite soul killer to worship is that worship is designed to draw adoration to God, no matter who it is that's giving it to him. Um pride says, I'm turning my focus inward on myself.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, in counseling, we also talk about the the coin of pride and shame. So that's one one side of the same coin. Right. Um, and as you flip that coin, you can have a false sense of humility on both sides, a false sense of humility, like I'm not good enough, which in light of the gospel of God's word, he's not saying I've created something not good enough. He says, It is good. I've created it in my image and and I've created it for worship and for joy. Um, though we need God and want God, that doesn't mean he is ashamed of us. Yeah. Um, so I think we can flip-flop between those two.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think it also bears us, you know, rewinding a little bit because some of you who may not have um who may not have heard the sermon from yesterday talking about the nature of what worship is in general, um, the idea of ascribing glory to God, you know, there is the real the reality that um, and the Bible backs this up too when talking about um our lives being our spiritual uh sacrif sacrificing our lives on behalf of God is our spiritual act of worship. Um that our worship goes beyond just singing and it goes into, you know, the way that we serve, the way that we love, the way that we we do our normal professional lives working with excellence, as we are we're um it says in Colossians, um whatever your hand finds to do, work at it with all your heart is working for the Lord, not for men. Um the the reality is of it that worship can be a whole lot of things, but specific for our conversation, um, because you know we were in a church and all that, and you citizen ATX, you uh ostensibly are worshiping in a church somewhere, the singing is a part of this. And so, Lindsay, I mean, uh is it fair for us to call worship a discipline in general? Like, I mean, are we getting out over our skis here a little bit by saying, oh yeah, worship is a spiritual discipline just as much as prayer or fasting or solitude, silence, these other things that we're gonna be talking about?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, I th when I think of the word discipline, I think it's going against our normal state of being. Um, like we need something to counteract that. And no blame, no shame, but all of us have a fight-flight response that we are we are kind of constantly reacting to. It is our state of norm. And in neuroscience, we call it that we're hardwired for negativity because of that fight-flight response. Um, though we're not created and designed to thrive there, that's where we tend to live. And so worship is one of those most amazing, cool ways to get out of that fight-flight response and to get back into the joyful living that we are destined to live. Um, and worship is a huge pathway for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, so then if that's the case and we've and we recognize that we're building ourselves up in worship or strengthening in it, uh, how then does that that that pride slash anxiety soul killer um function? Like what how does how does it you know, even in a context where we might find ourselves singing in a in congregation in a church, how does I mean, I don't know that for most of us the idea of pride or of shame just even enters into it? It's like well, I'm reading, I'm singing the words on the screen, or I'm at least observing it. I enjoy I'm enjoying the aura of the music around me. Um, so how is it that this pride slash anxiety um functions as a soul killer?
SPEAKER_05Well, I I think it kind of keeps you on the the outskirts of the relationship. Um, so when I think about even from a worship uh leading perspective, like entering into the heart of worship, I I too can just sit there and sing songs and listen to the click in my ear and and know where I'm supposed to sing and for the all those things.
SPEAKER_01And for the non-worship professionals, click is the the things that you guys have in your ears that's telling you here's the beat, here's the maybe explain that a little bit for them as well.
SPEAKER_05Yes, it tells you where where to be at all times. Um it's it keeps you right on beat. And if you don't have it, it's kind of a crazy wild mess up there. Um, but yeah, so we have all these instruments that can help us execute excellent music, but you can do that and not have a heart of worship at all. Um, so I think it's the distraction piece. It's it's that which you're focusing on is that which you can adore. And and if we're not focusing on God as the center of that, then we're gonna adore something else, whether it be the the notes that we sing or the to-do list in our head or whatever the distraction is.
SPEAKER_01For our own dignity.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Uh so pride can get in the way. And and I think, you know, the artist world in general is a competitive kind of world. Like when we start singing, I think we recognize, oh, you know what? I might not be as good a sister over there, or you know what, I might not be good as I might not get it. Or I, you know, there's all sorts of insecurities or comparisons or really silly things that can get in the way of a heart of worship moment, even in a big old church family.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. One of my favorite things is whenever a uh a worship leader tries to get the congregation to clap, um, and then listening to a room of people who have no rhythm. Oh, yeah. It's like, oh, it's oh brother. Yeah, all right. Well, we'll we'll give this a shot.
SPEAKER_05But but there is there are clapping congregations and there are non-clapping congregations. And I think it's best that way. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01Don't don't don't force an elephant to try to fly.
SPEAKER_05Be yourself.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that uh kind of brings up a good point too that you know, we were talking before we got on to the recording about the role that neuroscience has in this. And I know that's a particular passion for you, yeah, is you know, seeing these ways that the uh the scientific world, the way that our brains wired and are worked interact with the spiritual disciplines that we do. And so in this case, talking about uh neuroscience's role in pride and shame, I mean, what what is it that what observations, what connections have you seen there that in particular um worship addresses and and how how that balance goes?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So I mean, if you think about being in a car and you can be in drive or you can be in reverse or neutral, you can't be in all locations at the same time. The same with your brain. Your your brain is in a fight-flight response, or it's in a better head space. So when you're stuck in one head space, it's very hard to just operate from a worshipful heart or have this experience or emotional connection to it because your brain is stuck in a different space. So why worship is so powerful is because it signals to your body in all sorts of ways through the auditory process, through the verbal process, through a memory center. Like we sing songs that we remember that bring us back to old form truths, to old form stories, um, to God's word that is timeless. And through that process of focusing on what is true, what is noble, what is right, admirable, love lovely, and praiseworthy, we can start transforming our mind because we're thinking of truthful things. But the art of singing and the art of hearing it and the art of the music and the beauty around us actually gives us a little nervous system blanket that just wraps us up so it can actually elevate your brain in a different way. It really can change your brain. It is crazy, but it's so cool how it works.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's kind of like uh, I mean, as a mental picture, like putting on scuba gear to go in the water. It's like you can be effective of going in the water if you don't have scuba gear, but you're not gonna go very far. And you're not, it's you're you're not gonna be able to get to where you want the depths that you want to get to. Um, and it sounds like that with worship, that's one of those things that we do spiritually that it gives us the ability to to swim in waters that might normally be too deep for us. Um Absolutely and and also just too deep for our personal perspective of who we are, of our identity, of of what we what what and who we think we are.
SPEAKER_05Um Yeah, case in point this morning, I had a conversation for 20 minutes, and it was a relatively negative conversation. And in my mind, I was like, I I I know this is not truthful, God, I just need to trust you. And like I was thinking all the good things, but my heart was just so discouraged from the conversation. And so I was just like, I need to pivot here. And so I put on a worship song, and you know what happened? My whole stance started to change, and I was like, okay, I'm I'm not only thinking and combating truth, it's like I found a powerhouse to combat the truth with and the rhythm and the the calmness of the songs and the sound of it, plus the the powerful truths of the song just grounded me again. Um, so it's just really cool how I I think God specifically designed us to understand and innately get music in a way that calms us down and brings us joy and peace and and brings glory to Him.
SPEAKER_01Well, and one thing that I would be curious about on this, because I I think some of those who are are here in this and they're hearing, you know, talking about re-tracking your mind toward a positive direction and you know physically changing where your mind space is. Is that idea there might be that idea of, well, are you just saying to fake it to make it kind of thing? Of well, you know, um what is is it illegitimate to do that kind of thing? I I mean, because I I I don't think so. But at the same time, when we talk about, well, um, we want to grow in a in this discipline, are we just faking it to try to make ourselves feel happier? I mean, I mean, maybe this is maybe this is more of a uh um what's the word? Like a justification for a cynical person. Oh, it's just and and and I do know that having talked to different people in church over the years, there is that thing of, oh, these they sing all these happy songs just to try to make themselves feel better or whatever.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But no, I mean, what what would be your response to that?
SPEAKER_05Well, I I'm thinking of a couple of things. I don't know if it's right or not, but I'm I'm thinking of a couple of things. And one of those is suffering is really a challenge. And and it's really a hurdle you gotta go through. And it's and I really dislike it when people think that church is like, oh, happy place. You just forget all your problems and God just wants you to smile. Like, that's not even like we have a uh an example of a son of God who grieved, who was sad, who had we have so many examples of Christians in the Bible who were depressed. I mean, there's a lot of emotional turmoil that's faced in the Bible, and so we don't just sugarcoat that with a smile on our face. However, there is something in neuroscience called neuroplasticity. And there is your your brain can change over time with habits, and it takes you replicating those habits for them to actually transform your mind. So you may not emotionally experience something beautiful and positive the first time you try it, just like when I go for a workout, I don't like it the next day. Yeah, it feels real bad. Like I do, I feel sore, I don't want to do it again, but I knew it was good for me. Um, it may not be a negative experience when you worship, but it may fall a little flat to your point. Um, and it's one of those disciplines that as we practice something, we become in our in a in the neuroscience world, we create new pathways. And the stronger that pathway is, the stronger the emotional experience can be. But it does sometimes, because of suffering, because of a lot of circumstances, I believe there it is normal and natural for us to feel a disconnect from emotion and our head knowledge a lot of the time in the spiritual world.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think part of that is related to the fact that we don't practice the worship, uh, worship by lament.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. Preach it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I mean when you look in the Psalms, there's a ton of them that are not real positive. I mean, you look at the book of quote lamentations, the whole thing is a giant sob story. But I mean, the but the reality, what what's actually important?
SPEAKER_05It's important to lament. And we don't do it when you don't do it. You're not actually allowing your body to physically go through what it's designed to do to grieve.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's one of the things that that when you were talking about the role that we when we're bearing these things into worship, it kind of reminds me of that when uh in the book of First Peter it says, Cast your anxieties on him because he cares for you. You know, you made that statement that sometimes in churches we the churches get the connotation of just forget your worries and problems and then just act like everything's okay. The Bible never says to do that. The Bible says bear you bear them to him and then he takes the load from you. And that like part of the act of worship is taking the things that we are grieved about or are hurting about, being honest with God about them, and then lifting them up and letting go of them. Because uh what one of the things I see that happens a lot of times with people who are bringing suffering into the church is because they have so much uh embraced that as their identity, and back to the neuroplasticity thing where I can only think of myself as a victim, there is a fear, an insecurity there of if I let this go, I don't know what I'll be holding on to at that point. Who am I even anymore? If I'm not this up identity that I've I've leaned into for so long. Um I think that's one of those beautiful things about worship that it doesn't matter who you are when you're coming in, God stays is the Jesus as uh Hebrews says, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. And so as we come and we bear those things to him, I mean, he desires us to change. Um we don't come into worship because we don't want to change. Like that's a that's a that's dumb. But that is, I think, the mentality a lot of us come into that worship room with is you know what, I'm gonna come in here and I'm gonna be fine. I'm gonna worship God. It's going to be a what do you call it, the cherry on top of my spiritual experience, right? Of well, I'm just gonna get in there, I'm just gonna praise God and blah, blah, blah, because everything is great. And it's like, well, you know what? Things you can't ever things can't ever improve until you recognize that they aren't okay. And maybe the problem that's not okay is the fact that we're holding on to our own sufficiency and uh in the presence of a God who is all sufficient.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I mean, trust is a hard, hard thing, you know, especially if historically you haven't had someone on earth who has shown you a really good trust, yeah, or or that you can lean into that. Um, so I I think there's a wide array of reasons why people struggle um in in that space. Um, and I do think that those hardships, uh just speaking personally too, I do think those hardships, though I I don't like them. I'm not gonna say I've liked any of them. At the end of them, as I look back, I can say that God has grown me in ways and shown up in ways that I truly didn't really imagine in a positive way.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you didn't have control over the ways that he was gonna act in the midst of those situations, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I I think when we're focused on the outcomes and our prayer life is focused on God fixing something a specific way, that can that that's gotten in the way of my own worship for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh whether that be pride or or being freaked out, I know both are probably true for me at times.
SPEAKER_01Um well, and it's true also that in the psalms, you made that statement about the the role that that people who have committed abuse or who have uh have done things to break relationship. A lot of the psalms are about evildoers and about the psalmist trying to come to grips. How can a good God allow evildoers to exist in the world? And a lot of times what winds up happening is the content of that psalm is asking God to to bring justice, right? Again, and taking our hurt and then uh replacing it with trust that God will move on our behalf. And um you know, I think uh again, most of the time when we talk about this idea of pride and stuff like that, it comes back to self-sufficiency. It's I d whether because I don't trust that my needs are gonna be met or because I don't think I need anybody else to help my needs be met, it gets in the way of worship, which in its basis is adoration. And um and so then how do if we recognize this that the pride slash anxiety is a soul killer in this uh in the sphere of worship, what are some ways what how how do we fight it? How do we fight against the soul killer of pride and of anxiety in the midst of worship?
SPEAKER_05Well, honestly, I I think the the first step and and most things that I talk about with my clients, with myself, is uh observing it. Um I think so much of this goes under the radar unnoticed. Um
SPEAKER_01Well, so what do you mean by observ observing it? Does that mean standing in the worship and what and watching it or observing?
SPEAKER_05Yes, just observe. No. Just observe other people worship and then you will find your worship ways. No. I just getting a bit more attuned to yourself. I I I don't think a self-awareness is something that we really like to do because it's a very vulnerable place to be, is maybe looking for ways that we're not fully satisfied or looking for ways that we're not fully right or we're not fully okay.
SPEAKER_01Or patterns that we have that are hurting ourselves.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, or others. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I think those are all very, very difficult. If I could tell you the amount of times that I've walked a very older person through, tell me your thoughts and your feelings. And they really struggle to identify their thoughts and their feelings. It it's it is so common. Like it is not, it is not normal for most people to be like, you know what I have? I have this thought and this feeling. And I know that's untrue. And this is how you regulate that. Like it's not, that's not the normal way humans go through the world. They go through the world with a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings that they don't recognize are affecting the way that they're talking to themselves. And then they don't recognize that that is navigating and as a guidepost for behaviors going forward. Um, so in my world and in my my understanding, if you can't observe it, it is extremely difficult for you to even know what to change uh because you have no idea. Yeah, you're just fighting some sort of ghost behind you.
SPEAKER_01Well then, so what's some what are some methodologies by which you would um encourage people to have that kind of observation of that that self-introspection?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, the first thing I'd say is your presence with God is essential, whether that be in a large group setting, and and you can find that, but it doesn't matter who's around you, you have to have that personal presence with God. And and I love this exercise. It's called God's Gaze Upon You. And you really just sit there and you contemplate if if God were looking at me, what would his face look like? Would he be looking at me with a smile of delight? And when I ask people this question, it is insane how many feel judged or not good enough by God. And I was like, oh man, I'm so excited to tell you that is not the truth of the gospel. Like, I'm so excited to tell you that is not true. Um, but their their observation of that can start catapulting them into all sorts of hard places that they've never gone before and recasting actual truth in their life, and it sets them free from all sorts of stuff. It's one of the most beautiful things to watch.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and that was one of the one of the points that I had thought about in this also for fighting the soul killer is this will sound weird, but embracing the awkward. So you know it. I mean, it we we spend so much of our time in our life avoiding awkward situations, awkward conversations, uh, looking awkward in front of our friends or family or coworkers or whatever, that that whole process of of self-observation is completely external. What do I look like to other people? How am I being perceived? How am I am I, if I can't do something excellently, I'm not gonna do it in my own terminology, I'm not gonna do it at all. Um, and one thing I found that is true, really it's gonna be true for all of the disciplines, also, is that if we are not uncomfortable in the practice of our faith and our practice of these spiritual disciplines, then we're not doing it right. In the same way that if you go to the gym and to your example earlier, you go to the gym and then you feel fine afterward, you probably didn't do it right because nothing has changed, nothing has grown. Um, and a lot of people go to church like they go like going to the gym and feeling just fine afterward because they didn't actually stretch themselves. They didn't actually, and you know, to the point of the whole uh neuroscience piece, there was no vulnerability there, right? Because ultimately at its core, awkwardness is always is always stepping into vulnerability with something with something or someone outside of your control.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I love what David says. He says, Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts. And if there is an anxious way in me, lead me to the path everlasting. And so it if I'm not asking that question and and being willing to go there, I cannot take myself somewhere I'm not willing to go. Um, so you you can be resistant to that process. God's not resistant to it, he's open on the other side. Um, but we can be very resistant to that process because we're not ready for it yet or we don't want to. And so it you're right, it does take us getting uncomfortable to get to a different place.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think kind of the middle, the middle image I get is of a person climbing up on a diving board and going up to the edge and looking over, understanding what it is that is could happen, what it what's going on around, but either because you're afraid or because you haven't trained yourself, you turn away and walk back off. Um because ultimately anytime that we're anytime that we entrust ourselves to God in any kind of spiritual way, we are we are at risk. You know, you're at risk of being hurt, of being disappointed, of well, at least in your own mind, doing it wrong. But, you know, there is that that reality of scripture where it says there is no fear in love because uh love casts out uh perfect punishment. Yeah, perfect love casts.
SPEAKER_05See, you got it. You got it. Well, we together we got it.
SPEAKER_01I was trying to paraphrase it and then I just mangled it. I I went up to that diving board and I jumped and I hit my head on it on my way to.
SPEAKER_05It's not about perfection, friend. You you had the sentiment.
SPEAKER_01Which, as it happens, is our next point. The other part of uh develop fighting this soul killer is also gonna be making a plan that sometimes we can help, we can grow by creating a plan to move forward and grow better than just letting it go and seeing what happens, right? Like again, back to the gym analogy. If you're not marking how much you're lifting, then you're not gonna ever know whether you're getting stronger or not. Um, and that idea of progress before perfection is absolutely true in worship. I mean, how how have you seen that come through in your life with someone who, or have you ever seen that as a worship leader, where somebody who wasn't coming from a perfect place was not honestly even very good at singing, but was still practicing the discipline of worship in their life?
SPEAKER_05Um my dad is very tone-deaf. He's like really Dad, I love you, but you're not a good singer. And he would get on this podcast and he'd tell you he's not. Um so I think again it comes back to the heart of things. The thing I learned from my dad the most, the most tone-deaf person I know, is when his choir teacher told him, if you can't sing well, sing loud. And it's about making a joyful noise. So the moment you make it about something else is the moment you trip up about it. Um, now I feel like I I cried when I was seven because I was sitting next to my dad and I could tell that I could sing and he couldn't. And I was upset for him that he couldn't sing. I was like, Well, I'm so sad for you. But then at the same time, I was like, Oh, I have I have been given a gift. And part of worship in my personal life and in me personally is refining that gift, and I delight in doing it because I delight in being able to execute it the best of my abilities. So there are a ton of musicians. Um, you are not innately able to play a guitar, you're not innately able to play something, or innately sing or lead worship is different than just singing.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05It is a craft that you cultivate, and so I get real inspired by worship leaders that cultivate the craft, they cultivate the worship.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's and that's just generally, you know, us bringing our best to God. Like we want to, we want wherever God has gifted us and is challenging us to grow in. But you know, one of the things that that I that I've observed as a pastor over the years is I find that the most authentic worship in churches is our babies. That when you have a baby in the service that just starts talking, that's just starts having a time, or if you have a uh an uh individual with special needs that's in there who's just singing and doesn't even maybe make make sense. But man, those but why why do I identify that as worship? Because they are singing they are singing from their heart, they are offering up something that may not be refined, may not be awesome, but because of who they were created to be, they are living in that identity without shame and um unabandoned, yeah. And most of the time I see because you made that statement about the somebody saying, Well, I can't sing. I mean, the the amount of times I've heard that said over the years, I mean, it it's as much as I've heard people say, I just don't know how to use technology, which usually is an excuse not to learn how to do something. I mean, it the the the thing, if you listener, are in that space where you're not a good singer, that is awesome. Make a joyful noise, get out there and make up for what might be tone by being volume. I I I think I think it's interesting to think about, even from the role of what choirs are. Choirs don't always have all good singers in it. I mean, sometimes there are just meh singers in there. But what I have found is that the quality of a choir is more is more uh contingent on the amount of people that are in the choir singing together than on how great everybody is in it. I mean, there is there is a power, even even you consider in scripture whenever the angels appear uh to announce Christ's birth. I mean, it didn't say that they sang the the thing that caused them awe was not, oh, well, it's a sweet, it was just a sweet, perfectly harmonized and all that kind of stuff. I bet I honestly think it was pretty loud and scary. The guys fell as though they were dead. But that's the reality. There is power in that, there is beauty in that when we when we're functioning in the way that God called us to function, when we're worshiping in the way that God called us to worship, regardless of whether your tone is great or not. I mean, what is it that that Christ asked for over and over in scriptures? Just obedience, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think he'd give us all the same gift of the same perfection of voice, if that's what it took to be worshippers. But he gave us different gifts and different skill sets to refine one another and to use different spaces to to bring worship, not just through singing, although singing is a part of it. Yeah. Um, but worship is I love that Romans 12, one, you know, it's it's a spiritual act.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean, you even think about it in scripture when it says that uh if if uh these others don't worship, even the rocks will cry out. So I guess that's that is a good test point for someone who's in a church setting. Can you sing better than a rock? I mean, maybe. I don't know. Are we talking about Scott Stapp here? Are we talking about Creed? Uh no, that's a joke. But but ultimately, you know, the quality of your worship is not dependent on the quality of your voice. Um, just in the same way as your quality as a father and a husband is not dependent on you being the best father and husband in the world, but do you love your family and are you willing to sacrifice yourself on behalf of them? I mean, it it it's we we put so much pressure on ourselves for that perfection, and it keeps us from experiencing the joy that that uh Christ designed for us. Um all right, so Lindsay, we're kind of here at the end of the conversation. Um any other thoughts that you have on this role of um the soul killer of pride and shame or pride and um anxiety as a soul killer toward that spiritual discipline of worship.
SPEAKER_05I would just encourage you to find a way to worship the Lord in your own private space this this week. Um use your words, sing it out when no one's looking, uh, garden it out and sing it out, walk it out, sing it out, uh explore creation and understand the vastness and the beauty that God's created around you to help you get back into that space. Um, because we really we were created to worship and it's a part of who we are. So I just encourage you to do that. And and the more we are attuning our hearts towards that, everything else aligns. Everything else fades in the background.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And one last thing I would add into that, like with bearing that, and um Jonathan brought this up yesterday in the sermon that if you're not worshiping the other days of the week, you're not gonna be worshiping on Sunday. Bear your burdens to the church, like bring them with you. I know sometimes people say, Well, forget it, just leave it at the door, whatever. It's like and they say, That's what I love about the church, you can just leave it. It's like, well, no, you're you that you're you're holding that back from God. Like you're you're you're you're taking something that is important to you and saying, It's not important enough for me to give it over to God, or I'm not important enough to offer this burden up to him. That when you're singing in the these songs of worship, are you actually are uh in your mind's eye, are you cat are you taking that anxiety and are you casting it upon him? Sometimes we need that. We need to create these mental pictures in our minds of doing these emotional actions. Sometimes that can help, but the other part of it is just just sing, just like get give God a chance in the context of this.
SPEAKER_05That's the discipline part of it is showing up even when we don't quite feel like it. Yeah. Um, the emotions will will follow eventually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, Lindsay, thank you for joining us today on this. I think we have we have dealt with that soul killer. We've killed it and killed the killer. Um, but we're so glad that you joined us for this conversation. And we hope that you, listener, continue to walk with us on these spiritual pathways as we talk about these ways that God wants to build us up in uh in Him and through these spiritual disciplines, while at the same time um separating from ourselves these soul killers that would bring us down. But on behalf of Lindsay, myself, our producer Stephen Vaughn, thank you for joining us today on the Citizen 8TX podcast, and we'll see you next time.