Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Soul Killers: Apathy
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week we covered the Spiritual Pathway of service. What is the opposite of service? Apathy. Join Corbin and Jonathan as they discuss this Soul Killer, and how it affects our daily lives when we choose to avoid service.
Welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. We're so glad you've chosen to join us today online for another installment, another episode of our Soul Killer series. I'm Pastor Jonathan Spencer over at Austin Baptist Church. And I'm here with me in the studio. Our student minister Corbin Smith is with us. What's up, Corbin? Prodigal Sun Return. We thought we lost him, but we reeled him back into the studio, and we've got a lot to talk about today because Corbin, there was a new sheriff in town in the poultry.
SPEAKER_02We had some razzle dazzle in front of Austin, I'm just kidding. Yeah, we were we were all in for student Sunday, man. It was such a blessing.
SPEAKER_01Well, you did a great job, man, and so did our students. And we'll kind of explain. If you weren't here on Sunday, we'll explain kind of what happened there. But uh Corbin's gonna be able to carry us through today's episode and kind of put some legs to all the stuff that we talked about yesterday in church. But kind of recap of what we're doing. If you maybe you haven't been listening to the series on Sunday mornings, we're doing a sermon series called Pathways, and we're looking at the different pathways uh that God has provided for us to walk in a relationship with the living Christ. And so, how do we actually build in that relationship? So often we always talk about how we have a relationship with Jesus. We're getting practical of well, how do you walk in that relationship? How do you grow closer? And we're discussing the different spiritual pathways that God has provided to us for us to walk and grow closer to Him. And so yesterday or on Sunday, with the time we're recording this on Sunday, which was yesterday, we talked about the pathway of service and how ultimately that grows us closer with the Lord. But you might remember this sermon series is called Soul Killers. And the reason why we're talking about that is on the podcast, we're trying to look conversely to the other side. On Sundays, we're providing a pathway encouraging you to walk down it. But on the podcast during the week, we're going to talk about instead of a uh pathway that would lead to soul care, really other pathways that would lead to soul killing.
SPEAKER_02To show you how to apostasize.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. No, in all seriousness, these pathways, they they they're kind of the other option that you can choose the pathway we're advocating for, or often if that pathway is rejected, we find ourselves on another path. And the pathway we're going to discuss today is apathy, which really all of us kind of have a choice to either walk into kingdom service, we'll talk about service, or if we neglect that pathway, usually you f we find that pathway of apathy. And we want to talk about really how that can be destructive ultimately to our own spiritual development. But before we get there into all that stuff, Gorbin, let's just kind of start on the base level. Recap Student Sunday. Uh if you if you don't mind, just kind of talk about the theme, what all happened, really the big picture of what that looked like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, first of all, I mean, I guess if you don't know what Student Sunday is, Student Sunday is when we have our students take over basically every area uh of the church. They they put on a lunch. We sp we fed, I think the the final head count was around 400 people. Big old lunch. About a little under half of the church on Sunday. And so uh they they take over and and serve every year. Uh really it's normally in the first uh week of May, so you can mark it on your calendar for next year if you already had lunch plans this year. Uh but uh we thought it was really fitting, I guess, to kind of tie in and even involve our students in the life of this actual sermon series, which I think we haven't done in the past necessarily, uh, on this idea of service. And so we we talked about and they lived out this idea of one, like we're serving here on Sunday, but two, like what does it mean and what is God's design for us to serve? How does God use, shape, and form us through service, and why is service important at all? And so we had two students, Raymond and Annika, who absolutely crushed it, and they shared kind of partly their own testimonies of coming to faith or or of a process of kind of like how they came about to be involved in the local church and things like that. Uh, one was more, I guess, more about their actual salvation story, and one was a little bit less. Uh, and then they also talked about how God used service to either mature them or just for for Raymond's story, which is if you haven't listened to please go back, it's so powerful. Um struggled with so many things like anxiety, abuse, um, yeah, suicide stuff that was just his story is so cool. Um but uh God used someone else's service, right? The the time they were willing to invest him to to change Raymond's not just like his life, but his eternity. Yeah. Uh which I thought was so, so cool. And then from there, I I had the easy job of it's so easy on students that I did to teach because you just have to teach the Bible. You don't have to come up with some like story or hook, right? Because you've just heard these awesome stories of why service is important. And so I got to talk about 1 Corinthians 12 and spiritual gifts, which is maybe not somewhere we go, I think, right away for service, because we we normally just use that as like a spiritual gifts list. But if you really read the text, that's it's more about like this idea that the the body loses out on something when you aren't using your gifts, when you aren't serving. Yeah. That actually all Christians are spiritual and have gifts, which I thought was so.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I like the angle and you kind of reiterated it right there that you went with the sermon because you talked about missing out. Because I think oftentimes when we talk about this the this topic is service, I think most people at church, Christians, we've kind of heard the talk. We know Jesus served us, we're supposed to serve others, and then we leave feeling guilty if we're basically doing nothing. Yeah. And you you took it, I think, in a positive angle where it wasn't a guilt trip. You really discussed really you're missing out. Like it's not it's not that you're missing out on checking the religious box, you're missing out on the spiritual experience and the growth that can come through service. And you said this, Corbin. I might not be quoting it perfectly, but you said service is God's practical pathway to spiritual maturity and fulfillment in your life. So expound on that if you don't mind. How how does serving ultimately spiritually mature us and bring that sense of fulfillment into our lives?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good question. I think on one hand, like all obedience does mature us. Uh and I I did I mentioned it in the sermon. I I I I appreciate that you pointed out how we framed it because we tried to frame it more positively. I think often it's a negative framing. Yep. Negative in the sense that, like, don't you need to do this or you're bad. Right. Which is like, in some sense, this is true for obedience. Like, it's a like if you sin, that's not good, don't sin, right? And it's hard to read the New Testament and not say, like, I should be served. Like, there is a real command in there, so hear that. Uh, but positively, like, the Bible talks about when we do uh things that partner with God in our lives, God uses that to sanctify us. Uh really, it talks about in the Bible using it to save us altogether, not because our salvation is through those works, but because salvation in the Bible is is one word that talks about both our justification, our made-rightness with Jesus, right? Uh, the work of the cross on our behalf, and also then the now what? Right. So, like what does life look like today? Because our salvation, it says, is being worked out with fear and trembling as we obey. And so part of God's design for that is that we talked about in the sermon, God gave every Christian gifts, things they're good at, things that they can connect with, things that they're passionate about. And as we live and make culture and exist in the world, if we're doing those things well, relying on the spirit that lives with us, right? Because we talked about that, was another big point, is that Christians they don't serve sometimes because we believe the lie that the Holy Spirit isn't empowering us. And actually, every Christian, if you're in Christ, one has gifts and two is empowered, right? And so as we like partner with God in that, God grows us through and he makes us more like Jesus. And he also makes us realize where we're deficient. And if you've ever taken the time to like really seriously serve, not just like not that those things are bad, but not maybe not just like, oh, I helped out at a community center one time, but like, oh, look, I have a regular pattern of service in my life. You could testify to one, like God reveals things in us that are deficient in that often. But two, like uh the biggest wins of my life to this day are still when I was like an unpaid small group leader.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_02And like I do ministry full time, I love what I get to do. I see some crazy life change now, right? And and still some of the biggest things we're in eighth grade small groups.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think that's so key because I I could, and I know both of us are coming at it from vocational ministry uh positions, so we we are blessed to be paid to work in ministry and to serve others. But before that, we all had that same calling too, where we all did it for quote for free. You know, this this isn't just a job, it's it's a calling. But I but I love in the church where from my seat I get to lead a lot of people who are professionals. They're called into a lot of different arenas and they work and they have their nine to five, whatever they're doing. But I've known very uh, I'll just say successful people in their different fields, whether that be medicine, law, politics, whatever it may be. And to your point, Corbin, what really lights them up is leading a small group on Sunday or greeting at the doors or you know, taking care of that widow. And it's amazing how those things, to your point, bring them spiritual fulfillment where they have careers that others would be envious of. And they're like, you know, what really lights me up is third grade Sunday school. Like I love that.
SPEAKER_02And I think it's it's so powerful. Like I did use that word fulfillment, and that can get a little bit shaky. We talk about finding our fulfillment in something, like a dangerous ground to be in. But I think like rightly, like if our fulfillment is in Jesus, and part of what it means to be saved is that we are empowered and we have gifts, and that God created us, Ephesians 2.10, with good works set before us.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Then part of what it means to be saved is now I'm gonna go walk in these things, and God's gonna see this is the fullness of life that you can have with me. Because I think so often we're like, I get saved, and I kind of sit in the pew and like praise God, and the gospel is true, and I'm like, I just don't really know what to do. What now? And we kind of we have this high moment maybe of a salvation, uh, maybe especially as like if it was like something you came through through youth group or as a young age, and then you feel kind of disconnected. And many people, it's because their faith is not embodied.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Like their faith is this very heady thing, and there's nothing they do with it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And and the New Testament over and over and over again is describing like faith is something that like it does stuff. Yeah, it works, it it works out our salvation, right? It partners, it helps the poor, right? It builds up specifically in the first Corinthians 12 passage, it builds up the body, the church, right in love is what it says.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's talk about then because there's you said it, you know, there's many that misunderstand service, they see it as legalistic or overbearing or just you know a killjoy that's gonna rob them from all the other things they really want to do with their life. And when that happens, if you don't serve, the word we're using for the sake of this podcast on the opposite end of the spectrum is apathy. Um so I kind of want to ask that question. I'm curious to get your take on it. Why is it then, if if the word of God is clear about service and the work it does for the kingdom and the work it does in us, why are so many people in church? Why are they apathetic? Why do they choose apathy over service?
SPEAKER_02I think uh I I laid out so the way I framed the sermon even was that there were three kind of lies and three truths. The truths come from the passage that Paul's talking about when he's actually he's actually talking about speaking in tongues, but there are these principles about service as a whole and about spiritual allegiance as a whole that kill some of these lies. And the lies we believe is one, that we're not spiritual, like like I said earlier, that we're not empowered by the Holy Spirit, two, that we don't have gifts, and three, that service is gonna be a waste of our time.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so we think because we don't have a good theology of how God uses the service in our lives, and we don't we haven't experienced it, so we haven't tasted and seen that it's good, right? We're like, well then that's just another thing to add to my checklist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. And they kind of roll their eyes and like, I guess I'll do it like maybe once a quarter. When my church is doing like a big push for it, right? But service is in a regular rhythm in people's lives, and in the same way, disciple making often, which is very, very linked to us using our gifts, I really do believe. Yeah. Um is very rarely a part of uh an apathetic Christian's life. And so the people will sit and they'll be like, it's not like because they're evil, right? But it's just because they don't know any better, or because no one's no one's invited them to serve, right? And that's maybe a failing of the church is that we're not equipping and empowering people to find places to quickly plug in and start.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think that for sure happens, especially in churches, because lots of times we can outsource all acts of service to the quote professionals. You know, they get paid and compensated, like me and you, people that that are on the payroll where they do the service, and then we've trained the church to do the consuming. And so some of it I think is bad habits culturally that have gotten into churches. I also will say, Gorbin, one thing you said in the sermon that I thought was really helpful and insightful that sometimes we just brush over. You gave an application point there towards the end of you talked about how ultimately first come to know Christ. If you want to experience Christ through service, because you said I don't remember your exact line, but you said basically service without the gospel is is not transformational, it's weak.
SPEAKER_02Service divorced from Jesus doesn't have any power. That was your term.
SPEAKER_01And I and I agree with you on that, but I but you gave that exhortation of you know, rather than focusing on the deed, first focus on Christ. And if you need to come to know Christ, experience Him, then serve. Um, and I think that sometimes what happens in church and you were spot on, is we just reduce Jesus into just a religious checklist. If I'm going to church, I'm gonna hear that message, I'm gonna sing that song, and then I'll even feel good. Yeah, and then maybe I'll even serve at a place and all those things, but they've never experienced Christ, so it's of course they're apathetic, in other words.
SPEAKER_02And a harsh, a harsh way of framing this, and maybe I will say maybe a more biblical way of framing this, is i if a Christian is apathetic to the point where they are unwilling to serve, maybe they've misunderstood Jesus. That's an un and that's an uncomfortable place for us to sit. Uh but but I do think I I have a hard time reading passages like John 15, passages like Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and saying that like oh, like my life isn't supposed to look radically different from the people around me and this way that I'm really serving. And also that the church shouldn't shouldn't look so radically different from the other communities around it, that like it's a body is what this passage says. It's a b it is this organism that's building itself up. Uh and that's that requires service, it requires the body to do its job. It does.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think I think another key thing I was thinking on this topic is I think sometimes people stumble into apathy because they're not doing the other pathways we've already talked about. Because really, service, I believe, it's an overflow. You know, to your point, even used in the illustrations biblically, of you come to that living water and that stream is moving, you know, you're you you're experiencing Christ and we're experiencing him through all the pathways we've already talked about in this sermon series. But if you divorce yourself from those disciplines and you're not that stream is not moving and active, it becomes stagnant, like your faith is stagnant. And then you can't serve out of the overflow because much of our service is about ultimately Christ is filling us up all week long and we pour ourselves out on others, and it's a natural byproduct of that spiritual enrichment that we're already experiencing. But if you have no, if you're not being filled up, of course you're not gonna have the overflow, in other words, um, and that desire to pour out into others.
SPEAKER_02And I will say on the converse of that, like we have to be careful because I think a lot of Christians would say, like, I served a lot for like a very short season when I was young, yeah, or when I was a certain age, and now my time is done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02And that's I love, I love here, I I know people that listen to this podcast that have told me that before. And I love you. That is not biblical. It's it's just not.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me let me ask this question because it's you're actually touching on an area I wanted to get to, which is great. Is it good or right to still serve when you don't feel like it? So, so because you're you gave a good illustration of somebody that's done it for say 10 years and they're tired of it. Yeah. And like, I don't want to do it anymore. Um, is that is that okay? Is that good?
SPEAKER_02I would say you don't have to serve the same area for 10 years. You should grow in shape and form just like your life grows in shapes and forms. Uh I do think though that if you're asking, like, should I only serve when I feel like it? The answer is no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because our our feelings are just deceitful. Right. Again, like it's it's it's a harder application point than it is a text point, right? Because like in the text, if you read the Bible, it's very clear, hard is deceitful above all things. More often than our flesh wants to do just what the flesh wants to do. And so what we can do is sometimes we can even make service self-serving, right? Which is like the challenge of Matthew 6, right, is that our spirituality can build ourselves up, right? And that we can be these whitewashed tombs that outwardly look very good, but we're really doing it for ourselves. Right. And so it's what I think a lot of people get into is they they fall in love with service when like they get recognition or they feel like they're getting something out of it. Uh and those are good things, they're things that motivate us to serve, but they can't be the point.
SPEAKER_01I agree. Well, I think I would also add to that, Corbin. I think the key is sometimes we've um narrowed our focus of service that we qualify service only by a programmatized position. Where I'm only like I'm tired of serving. When I hear that, what they mean by that is go back to my earlier illustration. I'm tired of teaching third grade Sunday school.
SPEAKER_02Like that's okay.
SPEAKER_01Like and I would agree with you. And and to that's my point is I think those seasons come where we get tired of certain programmatized positions of service, and maybe we need to take a break from that seat to go get filled back up or to serve in another area. But the Christian calling of service, we are called, I believe, to find those roles in the church, the formal roles, but you can serve in informal roles and you should all day, every day of your life. I mean, one way you serve at church is by simply greeting people around you and making them feel welcomed by by listening to someone who needs a little bit of extra time, by holding that door, by cleaning up that mess. Like there's so many things that people do all the time that they are serving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, they just don't have a cool title with it. So you always are called to it.
SPEAKER_02Some of the issue here is that we sometimes we divorce programmatized service from discipleship. And those things are not really separate. And again, and they like if you look, like people are using their gifts, and as they use their gifts, they're making disciples. I talked about the Sunday, it was a it was actually off the cuff. I did not plan to address the media team, and I pointed at the same camera, different guy filming, I think, both times. And I said, like, you can make a disciple. That's that maybe throwing media team on the bus to assume that's not like what you assume of as a disciple maker, but like you can make disciples on media team. Like we have kids in youth group that are fringe that may just never connect with students. Yeah, but there are kids I know and adults I know today that are in church because someone saw that and they said, you know what? You can come serve with us on the media team, and I'm gonna invest in you. And they become lifelong Christians because of that. And they become disciple, devout believers. I know I can think of a couple guys that are parents that have healthy homes. And right, that's really what they grew up doing in churches. And so I do think that's something that we have to be like really mindful of is services is as much about really like using your gifts programmatized in the churches, it is like you actually are using your gifts just to serve people and love people and and and make disciples. And so you don't need to be a Sunday school teacher. We talk about spiritual elitism being this place that Paul is addressing. Yes, it's in one sense like we don't want to have to be professional Christians, but in the New Testament here in the book of Corinth, uh Corinthians, in in for in in the church of Corinth, it's not just like paid people that are being exalted. It's people that have the flashy gifts, the higher gifts, which Paul actually lays out, he says what the higher gifts are. It's things like speaking in tongues, which is the big concern in in 1 Corinthians 12, but it's also things like teaching and leadership, yeah, right? That we say, like, yes, obviously the church needs those gifts to survive. God, God needs people that are gonna speak through the Spirit of God, right, to for the church to survive and to remain faithful and apostolic and all these things, you know. But the church also needs people that are willing to open a door, yes, right?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And it needs all of those people to be willing to not just be married to their position and not even just married to their gifts, but being married to using everything in their lives and those things to make disciples.
SPEAKER_01And I'll also say, and this is coming from somebody who has public gifts, and I do kind of guess fall in that category, just the way God's uh positioned me over time. But I will say this I've learned that you'll never really be able to serve over until you first have served under. And a lot of people aspire to be teachers, which is not bad, but James 3 says you shouldn't because you're gonna be held to a higher standard. And then in 1 Timothy 3 1, we're told it's a noble desire to be a to want to be an overseer. But then there's a whole list after for verse 2 through 7 of that text, which is all about character. It's like if you want to do it, great, but here's what you better be above reproach in all of these areas. And so I just say that to someone out there like if you aspire for the public service and the public gift, it's not necessarily a bad thing because God's word said it's not. It says it's a noble desire to be an overseer, but you have to ask your heart first, do am I willing to serve under? Because if you cannot serve under, I don't believe you're ready to serve over.
SPEAKER_02It's a bad understanding of authority among other things.
SPEAKER_01It is, and God will protect hopefully his flock from you. Because you're probably not prepared for it.
SPEAKER_02A powerful quote I've heard kind of in line with this, right? That we're often we're educated or equipped beyond our level of obedience. Before we can even hope to use gifts in those public spaces, right? And I think that falls into also this idea of like I hope what people don't walk away from when they hear the sermon is therefore I can only serve if it's something I feel like I'm gifted at. Because I think that betrays then it's what serving is about I'm doing good the things that I'm good at, uh and I'm I can only do these things that I'm good at, and they only things that maybe make me feel fulfilled. And it's the hard in this is one, that you have gifts and you have something to offer we miss out when you're serving. But two, that this is all motivated by the true things about Jesus. Yes. And as it's motivated by the true things about Jesus, even the hard things that we're like, I don't like greeting people on Sunday morning. I I'm gonna be honest, guys, I am maybe the awkwardest human to ever live. And I get nervous about every introduction, I'm like, I'm gonna say something weird, and I'm sorry. Uh but I I have to go out and I have to greet people every Sunday. I have to, I get to, right? It is a game of the way.
SPEAKER_01Well, but and by greeting people, you're actually not only are you serving, but you're also teaching through that others that see someone of a public position doing something that's quote lower on down the chain, that actually preaches in the same way, in a lesser way. But of when Jesus is washing feet, it's the same idea that it doesn't matter who you are, you have to be willing and able to serve in all of these capacities. And by doing the lesser, oftentimes that preaches the loudest. And I'll I'll illustrate just quickly with this. I remember when I was a youth pastor at another church, we always did a big beach camp. And we would go there and it'd kind of be an all hands-on deck. It was a huge church, huge camp. And you'd have all the staff there from the preachers, the teaching pastors, higher-ups to little small youth interns like I was when I started all those things when I was starting a ministry. But I would watch and the guys that were on the stages preaching to thousands of people on the on this week of camp, you know what lots of them were doing? Carrying water jugs on the beach, and like not no one even knew who they were. The kids didn't know who they were. They weren't, they weren't in some flashy suit and looking sharp. They were doing grunt work.
SPEAKER_02Dressed down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they were. They were doing grunt work while the youth pastors were being exalted, while they were the heroes running the camp. You had the other ones serving under their leadership.
SPEAKER_00That's good.
SPEAKER_01And to that point I'm trying to make, it's like that preached, that alone is like, yeah, well, he's serving under, and it makes sense that he also then therefore can serve over. Um So anyway, it's I think you're right. It's not always about whether we feel fulfilled, it's about how can I glorify Christ through this and how can he shape me through this act of service to look more like him.
SPEAKER_02And that fulfillment, again, it does come, but it comes with the right heart and service. Like if we're all empty service is a real thing. Um and so yeah, just being careful with that. I think an adjacent point to just what you're talking about that I do just want to speak out is I think it is a red flag when you see a pastor that isn't willing to serve like that. And that's a more and more common thing. Or we have pastors that aren't really pastors, they're teachers. And teaching is a part of pastoring. But Jonathan, you we had lunch today, and you said something that's like that's twenty about twenty percent of the job of pastoring is writing a sermon. Yeah, it's pretty much. About twenty percent. Yeah, I think some people just like they see they seem content to to serve and live under authority that is basically like a glorified TED talker. I agree. And that's tough, right? Because it's some of the culture of as in the broader church of service has been lost because we've traded it, and I I think I can't remember if I even said this. I planned to say it, and then I don't know if I did, but there's something so disordered in our Christianity when not only are we okay with a body being like all parts of the same member, but if the body is just all mouths or all stomach, it's all about consumption. Yeah, and it's not about anything else. Because like consumption and like content and those things, like they're not, they don't have no place in the church, they're important. Right. But if they become the point, in the same way, like if speaking in tongues became the point, or if just opening doors, if we were all just really excited to open doors at churches, and that is why we got up in the morning and then we're like, now we gotta do everything else. This stinks, that would also be weird, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so they need more than a greeting, yeah, for sure. Well, let's let's talk a little bit about apathy then. Um, you know, because we've hit service pretty hard here. Let me let me ask this first question, and it kind of ties in a little bit of what we're discussing. Um, can you be apathetic? Because I know we're talking about a dichotomy, really, we're presenting of service and apathy, but I would argue you can be apathetic even in your service. Um, and I so I guess that the question is, do you agree with that? Do you think you can become apathetic in your service? And if so, how do you break free from that? How do you fight fight out of that rut?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think you definitely can. I think, again, like not to go back to a passage I didn't preach on, but Matthew six, we've been talking about the students recently. We've been talking about the Sermon of the Mount as a whole for the last I think seven or eight weeks. Two more, which is crazy. Um, we've almost gone through the whole thing. But Matthew six, the the later half is all about this idea of like a self-serving spirituality and and the ways in which like we can do things for the wrong reasons, and the the heart behind what we do matters, and I think we can grow apathetic uh when when we begin to lose like the heart behind why we serve. Um, and that it's not just like malicious, it's not always like self-serving, right? But it can just be like again, because I think I just have to do this. Um, it could be because we have lies about that. It's it can be because we don't have people in our lives that we're willing to tell. Yeah, hey, I'm feeling a little burnt out or struggle. Like, that's like I think the the horrible way to take this message is to say, therefore, I can't ever tell anyone if I'm feeling burnt out on service. The point is actually that we're supposed to build each other up in love, right, to help bear one another's burdens so that we can serve more faithfully and more effectively and make much of Jesus together. And so I think absolutely you can get apathetic in service. Uh, and I think the guy gives us some pathways in community to fight that. That's why Paul doesn't talk about this as an individual thing. Right. It's a corporate as the body builds itself up and loves, and as the body suffers, all suffer together. Right. And so practically, what does that look like? I think people that are frustrated but kind of just show up because they feel like they have to and they're really bummed about it, and you can tell they're bummed about it. Right, like that's an obvious example, but I think it can also be like, man, uh someone that like a teaching position is an example, right? Where like outwardly I'm teaching, but inwardly like I'm living a life of secret sin. Right? Like that can look like apathy. Um apathy can also though just look like I just don't want to do it. Yeah, you know. Uh and so I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of show up and I'm gonna kind of pretend like I'm working, but like I'm just gonna kind of sit here and you know. So there's there's probably a b uh a couple other better ways to think about that.
SPEAKER_01And but Well well, I think it just gets into the whole, it's the same problem we have kind of in every area of religious life. Ultimately, you can be apathetic in any of them and you can go through the motions of worship or Bible study or even prayer, you know. I mean, there's a lot of things we can just kind of go through the motions of, and so it it's a hard one because the only one that can really diagnose it is the spirit of God within you to reveal that to you that that you're going through the motions, dude. That's good, even though you're here.
SPEAKER_02Well, check your heart, right? Like they should be. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's what I'm getting at because you have to, you have to, I think it's something that has to be spiritually discerned because outwardly you might be front-facing, like, and I'll even illustrate myself. I can go up on a stage and preach a pulpit, preach a message from the pulpit, and everybody will think, man, that dude is all in right then. But my heart could be far off, and no one would know that other than the spirit of God who would give witness inside of me.
SPEAKER_02And here's there are every single preacher feels that sometimes, right? Like, that's the reality when you go teach every week. Is now there are levels in which that becomes unhealthy and even at some point disqualifying, but there is the reality of like some like when you're when you're teaching or like some or when you're serving your week, you're gonna feel maybe apathetic about it at times, but it's what we do with that apathy, and and if we bring it into the light, and also like if we're asking God to change that in us earnestly, like do we really well? I think it's easier though to define apathy by defining service positively, because I think I'm struggling to kind of put language to it because I think positive service looks like prayed-for service. Yeah, it looks like service that's really seeking the will of God, uh, and not just as like a buzzword, but like saying, like, God, like this is open-handed. If it's supposed to succeed and be good, let it do that. And if it's not, then let it crash and burn. And being like truly okay with it, not being empty words when we pray that. Um, I think really seeking after, like, hey, how can I connect whatever mundane thing I'm doing? The facing famous example is Brother Lawrence, right? Yeah. Washing spoons, right? How can washing spoons further the gospel? Right. And he becomes this famous monk that like there's all this stuff written about him. Uh, you can look up Brolaw, Brother Lawrence. Uh, I went to a Christian camp that named a cabin after him. Yeah. So I know his story very well. He's an OG. Uh he's great. Um, and so I think it's more about the heart that we do. As are we working heartily as for the Lord and not for men? Are we saying that this is because I need to do this and I'm doing this because my volunteer coordinator or the pastor that asked me to do this will be disappointed in me. Exactly. And that's the other thing, is like sometimes we can become apathetic because our ministries are personality driven.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's not because of Jesus, it's because Jonathan asked me to do it. Right. That's true. And that's like a dangerous look. I have to be very careful that I'm not asking too much of students because students, like, not because I'm some rock star guy, but just because I'm willing to spend time with them and invest in them, students connect with me. Yeah. And so sometimes students will do things I ask because I like Corbin and I want to do what Corbin wants me to do, right? But that's not really discipling them, that's not forming them. Yeah. And so I have to be really careful there.
SPEAKER_01Well, I would encourage, I'd say it this way, though I've I've said this before, um, not on this topic, but on a lot of things. If you're if you're listening to this right now and you're trying to assess yourself, or maybe you are serving, but maybe your heart's not stirred the way it used to be in your service, uh, and maybe your apathy's creeping in the door. I would I would encourage you to look inward, look upward, and look outward. And what do I mean by that? I mean one, look inward. First, check your heart and you pray, like David, Spirit, reveal, you know, in my heart the sin. Search me, O Lord. Exactly. It's is the is the word of God. He said is to reveal in me what's going on. Um, and if there is sin or things that I need to confess that are robbing me of my joy right now, then you look upward. And what I mean by that is you look to God in your service. I think what a lot of people do when they're serving at church, they make the mistake where it's like, I'm doing this for God. Yes, you're doing it for God, but you're kind of needed, but you're doing it with God and through God. And so, like one practical thing to do, and I try to do this on Sunday mornings as well, is even when I'm at church doing things, the short little prayers in the middle of your day of service goes a long way because you're reminding yourself that God, I need you. God help me as I'm going in this room, God give me this word when I get on stage. Just the simple God, here we go. I need your help right now. That that awakens your spirit to this is not me clocking in for God. I'm clocking in with God that He's here with me. So you look inward, you look upward, and then look outward. And what I mean by that is so much in service we make it very selfish in our lives, like because it's all about I know we I'm glad you brought up the word fulfillment. Sometimes we get the wrong perspective of that, and it's like it's all about I'm not getting this and this and that. If you look outward in your service and not make it about yourself, but just say, God, will you show me three people to encourage today? Will you help me just find three people in here? And then follow up on the side. And then you follow it, and then God didn't show me so because I don't have to. And this is what I do, and I don't do it every week perfectly, so I don't want to pretend to be some saint where I get it always right, but I have gotten this right many times, where I'll ask that prayer, and then I will simply just be intentional to your point, Corbin, of just go up to the person, hey, you're doing a great job greeting. Thank you so much for what you're doing, appreciate that. Hey, I just want to let you know I saw that, and I really appreciate what you're doing. Either do it in person or write them a note on on Sunday afternoon when you go home where you saw somebody serving, doing something to church, and just saying, Hey, God worked through you, thank you for that. That will rock their world. You don't have to be the pastor of the church to do that, but but it will also remove that apathy from your spirit if you'll look outward. So, anyway, I'll move on because I know we probably need to lay the plane here in just a minute, but I want to I want to kind of close on some of these thoughts about apathy. Um, Corbin, what do you think are some of the things that make us apathetic? So if we're trying to remove barriers, so if we're all saying apathy's a bad guy, don't let it creep into your life. What do you think are the barriers that usually get us apathetic towards service?
SPEAKER_02Uh rest not being a good rhythm. Yeah. So we work and serve from rest and into rest. Uh we've talked about that recently, so I don't I don't feel the need to explain too much about that. That's good. Um, but you can look back to our Genesis series if you're curious. Um I think this is uh again a harsh one, maybe, but I think if we don't really love the gospel, uh and I I say this like we can fall out of love with the gospel even though we still believe it. Right. Uh so does it affect us emotionally, does it move us? Not that the gospel is centered on feeling, uh, but I do think like the gospel should elicit a response and the people that champion it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Like if we're saying this has changed my eternity, then when we hear it, it should create and do something in us. Uh and so I think, man, asking God to reveal that kind of love for you again, this thing I have to pray often. Um, but man, it gets me amped. And it's I had a a mentor and pastor in Waco John Durham that like does this so well, and it's like cool to see him like almost tear up every time he really talks about the gospel. Uh now you don't have to be like weeping and crying, man, but you should just get amped for the things of God. Right. Dude, like you should. Uh I think you could read the testament and be very comfortable that we should be excited about this thing we're saying changes everything. Um other ways you can get apathetic. I think if you don't have people in your life that are that are encouraging you, um, that are that are that are spurring you onward, uh, Romans 12 is the other passage I was considering, kind of going in and preaching this. And it says we should actually be outdoing one another and showing honor, uh, and that we actually spur one another on, almost in competition, not in like an unhealthy, like one-upsmanship way, uh, but in like a, hey, like, man, he did this good thing for God. Praise God, like let's see this done. Uh, and that's part of what it means, I think, is to have people in your life that you can really wrong run alongside, not just like people you say hello to. I do think we we distort community in the church a lot and we say it's just supposed to be my buddies. And it's more than that. It's just, it's just much more than that. Um, and it's something that uh if you have spiritual friends like that, you know you have them. If you don't know you have them, then you probably don't. Uh and so I'd encourage you to seek that out. Like help us seek to help you seek it out. Uh partner with a local church. Uh I I don't know if we have a ton of listeners that maybe don't go to ABC, but we probably have a few. So if you're not here, find wherever you are, attend a local church, and find people that are gonna invest in you and sharpen you in that way.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I'd add to that list, you know, maybe a couple things of what fosters that apathy in us. I think I think it's related. You said rest. Um, I would also say busyness on the other side of that too, because that can cause a lot of apathy. And what I mean by that is that we prioritize other things above kingdom service. Um, and that one is a temptation in our world where we're all drawn to 500 other things that are interesting and calling our name and calling our service. Um, like there are a lot of people that serve in a lot of ways outside of the local church. And to your point earlier, you know, there's a lot of ways, you said in the sermon, a lot of ways to serve, but it's not going to transform you in the way that when you use your spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ. And so I think some of that busyness of create margin and prioritize the church and create the opportunity to serve. Um, and then the other thing I would throw in there, this ties into being saturated with your life and the gospel, is I think a personal insecurity will breed apathy in your life because you preached again uh against some of these ideas, which I appreciated of people thinking they're never good enough, they don't have anything to offer. The more you read the Bible, the more you'll see who you are in Christ. That it'll transform your mind to see yourself the way God sees you. And when you see yourself the way God sees you, you realize you do have value, you do have purpose, you do have calling, you do have gifts. And so it comes back to that place of why do we get apathetic? Sometimes it's not only because we don't see God for who he is, but we don't see ourselves for who God made us to be. And and if you miss that, then you miss all the good works and all the calling that God has on your life. So gospel saturation to be inspired, as you said, but also to be mobilized, I would argue.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it's even viewing that on both ends of the spectrum, actually, like the Bible also says don't view yourself as more highly than you ought to.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Right?
SPEAKER_02So it's careful because I think what we can do is we can be like, I'm a rock star, God needs me, and then I don't feel needed anymore. Well, I guess I'm not gonna serve, and this stinks. And uh, you know, we like to be driving the boat instead of God. Uh so I think that's that's definitely a a smart point there.
SPEAKER_01Well, we'll wrap with this one. I'll I'll kind of give you a closing thought, uh, Corbin. If if somebody's listening to all this and they say, All right, I am a little apathetic, I need I've gotten stagnant, I want to walk on this pathway. What would be a natural first step? Say somebody's listening to this and they aren't even 100% sure what their gifts are, they don't really know where they would be passionate about serving, all this is foreign territory. What would you advise them just pastorally? It's somebody that wants to take a step.
SPEAKER_02There's good, there's three things I would pray to God. Uh first, I would say, like, if I don't know my gifts, guide, like help me to see my gifts. Point like the the Bible says in Matthew 7, it says that uh if if you who are human know how to give good gifts to your children, right? If you don't give your kid a serpent when he asks for an egg, right, then how much more when you ask God for something, will he give it to you if you need it, right? And the Bible says we do need to know our gifts and we do need to be. So God's gonna reveal that. It might take time, it might be an opportunity for you to step into, right? Uh two is like God not just revealing my gifts, but God give me places to serve. Uh and help me, help me to be diligent in seeking this out. And then third, and this is one we haven't talked about at 10 today, God is there places in my life I'm serving two masters. Uh, because I think one of the things I I love what you said is we can have kind of an unspiritual service. Man, like if my life is more tethered to my kids' football booster club, yeah, or my life is more tethered to uh my dance class, or my life is more tethered to uh my my job than it is to serving the things of God. That doesn't necessarily mean even necessarily in time, right? Like I don't want to put like a legalistic requirement on there, but like, is the is the direction of my life in two places? Yeah. Because if my heart is pointed in two directions, the promise of Jesus is that things are gonna break down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so we have to be very careful that in in our desire to worship, our created nature to worship and to use our gifts to worship God. That's what service is, really. That we aren't worshiping two things at once.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh I think that's that's a big one. It's God, would you reveal that in us? Uh, because I think those are the the beginning places is I think when we start to claim times back from the idols in our life, we begin to say, oh no, I I can make service work. Yeah. And actually it's worthwhile to make service work.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um I agree. Well, I hope, I hope, listener, that you will take that step and uh take that step into service. And, you know, as a recap today, we do encourage you to walk on that spiritual pathway of service that that will take care of your soul, embrace soul care, and avoid soul killers and that soul killer of apathy that will rob you of the joy that ultimately comes through being transformed into the likeness of Christ. And that transformation uh is married right there. It's a part of the process, married to that idea of kingdom service. So if you need help in that avenue, you're trying to find a place to serve, trying to identify those gifts, contact your minister, contact a pastor, whether it be here at Austin Baptist Church if you're local, or find a local church somewhere. And uh our hope and prayer is that you will take that next step on this pathway. And by doing so, you might grow closer to the living Christ. So thank you for listening today. Thanks for joining us on the Citizen ATX podcast. We look forward to seeing you back next week.