Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Soul Killers: Independence
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When you think of independence it tends to be in a positive light. A child getting independence and starting life on their own. "The Declaration of Independence" and a nation declaring its freedom from an oppressive government. However, we don't always see the down side of independence. Join Jonathan and Matt as they discuss this topic of independence and why it is such a Soul Killer.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we're glad you're joining us as we continue our series Soul Killers. If you have been following along here at Austin Baptist Church, each week we have been talking about uh spiritual pathways that people can follow to grow in their faith and in their spiritual disciplines. But alongside those spiritual disciplines, we've we've also identified habits and practices that serve as soul killers, things that that do the opposite of what spiritual disciplines are designed to do in our lives. And so this week as we continue this series, uh I'm welcoming Jonathan Spencer with me to the studio. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And so we are jumping in today on the soul killer that accompanies prayer. And so uh where I want to start on this is asking that question uh because you you made a decision to do the pathway of prayer specifically this past weekend on Mother's Day. So why is it that you chose to uh build up that pathway specifically on Mother's Day?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's been well documented and you know said that there's great power in a praying mother. And so I think there's uh a lot of great examples of that in Scripture, even though we didn't go anecdotally into that. There are famous mothers who prayed and made spiritual impacts on their children in the Bible. But I think I think that topic of prayer is uh very pertinent to a mom. Uh that's something that I know moms spent a lot of time on, more than we probably realize as as Christian children, uh, how many hours really our mothers have prayed for us. So I thought it'd be very relevant for a mom. Uh and then also when you get into prayer, you know, and that was a lot of what the sermon was, was how the sir how prayer shapes us and how it changes us. And and I think some of the challenges that moms have too, and I addressed a little bit of it in the sermon, anxiety, for instance. You know, I was able to speak to that, which I feel like that is a relevant topic in the life of any mom. It is for fathers too, but I think particularly with moms, because they just tend to care more than us. Yeah, they anxiety is just a real thing. And not that uh prayer is the only way to combat anxiety, but it is one of the major ones that's outlined in Scripture. So I thought it would be a relevant sermon as well.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, and that's absolutely true. And so then as we've just as we've tried to discern what the accompanying soul killer, or I say accompanying, maybe the opposite of correspondence. Most of the stuff is kind of like uh you know two sides of a coin. Um we landed on the soul killer of independence. So let's go ahead and start unpacking from there. Um what how is uh or why why is prayer the opposite of independence? Like why why would we choose something like independence as a soul killer in particular?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Because it's really the opposite of prayer. Prayer is all about dependence, and that's really the point of prayer is that we're dependent on God and we need him, and so we commune with him uh through a primary avenue of prayer. But if you are prayerless, most likely you are not living your life dependent on God all day, every day in the way that he wants you to. Instead, we naturally drift then towards independence from God, where we are making decisions in our own wisdom, we are uh making our own plans according to our own will. And so those things they kind of relate to one another, where I believe God's calling us to have a dependent relationship on him. Um, but if we are not communing with him in an active way, we are prone to drift towards independence away from him in the day-to-day life.
SPEAKER_02Well, so one of the big questions I'd have on that as far as like getting kind of to the practical points of it, you know, we we we often in church say, hey, you need to depend on God and um we need to in our daily lives, you know, give us this day our daily bread. I don't know part of what you talked about in the sermon on Sunday. Um so what does that actually look like though? Because I mean, realistically, I think we can all affirm yes, we need to rely on God, and yet it seems like a hard thing to really grasp whenever we're we're talking about real actions that follow through with dependence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, because it is, it's not something that's developed also overnight. It's not like you do one thing and then suddenly that intimacy and that communion with God is is completely transformed overnight. It's a process of growing into that relationship with Him. Aaron Ross Powell And real quick, the question when you say communion, what do you mean by that? I'm talking about in fellowship, walking in step with God in fellowship and in that intimate, active relationship. And so observing and acknowledging the presence of God in your life, hearing and discerning uh from the Holy Spirit speaking into you, um, it's it's just walking in step with God, really. And my point is that that takes time. That's not an overnight thing, just like any relationship, you know, if if we even want to try to put it into the context of a marital relationship, I'm married to Bethany and we have a level of intimacy right now, 16 years into our marriage, that was not there on the first date. You know, there was not, we had not walked together long. And and now when you've spent nearly 20 years together, there's a different level of intimacy there. And so, um, and to that same point, God wants us to build up our relationship with Him. And one of the primary channels is prayer, and and to I guess go back to your question of, you know, how does it function? I think there's intentional times of prayer, and that's a lot of what Jesus was pointing towards right there in in the Lord's Prayer of go find a place, shut the door, and that's the discipline of prayer where you are creating time. But then there's also just the daily ongoing practice of prayer where it's just short prayers. Um, I've said it before I've probably on this podcast too, but there's short prayers that I'll pray in my mind and heart all day that no one will ever see and no one will ever know. Um, for instance, walking into a room, if it's going to be a tough meeting, God be with me as I go in. And just simply literally that one sentence.
SPEAKER_02That's the same prayer we pray every time before the podcast. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Pretty much. And you know, Carrie made a lot of money selling that song because we all understood that we needed it, but to that point when I already know God's with me, in other words, Matt, like a God lives in me. But by me calling out to him as I walk into a difficult room in my own heart, Lord, here we go, I need you. That's me actively acknowledging his presence in my life and making myself sensitive and available to his spirits leading. And so some of it's just those little prayers while it's also the longer discipline prayer, which is kind of more what I guess Jesus was focusing on that passage. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Well, and so in that, um, as we're as we're talking about this nature of independence, I think one of the first questions then that comes up is wait, isn't independence a good thing, right? Like we, you know, we here in the United States of America celebrate the Declaration of Independence and Independence Day, and we watch movies about aliens called Independence Day, you know. Like so what what why is where are we drawing this that independence is a soul killer? Uh and what what do we mean is there a is there a line between healthy self-sufficiency and the soul killer of independence?
SPEAKER_00I think it depends also how you qualify independence and freedom. Um, you know, there's a difference between a a state, you know, having independence and and uh and having rights for us as individuals. Yes, those are noble things, I think, with biblical uh biblical underpinnings behind them. But when it comes to just us as individuals and our relationship to God, independence is not what we're called to. We're called to dependence on him and in relationship with him. Um in fact, we're actually called to die to ourselves. And so really the idea of independence and do what you want and and everything's on your own, really the Bible sends a message quite the opposite that we're called to die to ourselves, follow him, and that we're called to be connected to him and also connected to others. And so the life is supposed to be a interconnected life, in other words, a relational life.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, I think that hits one side of it to the lit like to the uh almost libertarian side of it of do what we're doing. I know you'd get to libertarianism. You always want to create a crazy old militia manager. But no, uh but seriously, but the when we when we talk about politics kind of mirrors a culture, mirrors a uh uh a uh uh ethos that we have that we carry in ourselves. Um because on one side is that, the other side is the responsibility factor where people say it's irresponsible to be dependent on things. I mean I think I think in our context, when I uh as a parent, if I hear that somebody is dependent on somebody, you know, it's kind of like, well, go get a job, right? I mean it's the it's the why why do you have to be dependent on people to to uh take care of you uh take care of you? And so I think that honestly, as much as the the be free, do what you want kind of thing, I think one of the big areas we struggle with in this actual soul killer of independence is develop a lifestyle where you don't need anybody or need anything. And so where where does that come from? Like what what is that how does that piece bubble up whenever we're like because I mean I think a lot of really solid Christians struggle with that issue of of independence.
SPEAKER_00They do because we prioritize, I guess, what uh you know what we would value as external independence, financial freedom. You know, we don't want to be dependent on any other man and uh and making our own plan and doing all these things. Really the point of dependence when you get into a biblical perspective, it's focused on the inner man, it's focused on the inner person. Usually when we think independence, we think outer things, like I have my own home, I make my own decisions, I run my own company. Those are kind of the independent thoughts. But when Jesus talks about dependence, it's focused on the heart and on the inner person. When he says, Apart from me, you can do nothing. The idea being that you're not gonna bear any kind of kingdom fruit or kingdom impact and have uh eternal long-term fruit without the power of Jesus Christ working through you.
SPEAKER_02So do you di you think uh Jesus differentiates between the inner and the outer man on this?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we're all one. So I don't I don't necessarily want to say that, but I think I think that the point is the man, when we talk about independence, I think we're fixated on external realities of I want to have I want to have X amount of money in my bank, you know, I buy this, so I can be independent from any pressure of life, um, those kind of things. Where I think what Jesus is looking is for the inner transformation of the person um ultimately, and that's why he's saying you can't be transformed without him, like you have to be. And that transformation will then lead to external results, to your point. It's all connected.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I I think there are a lot of people who make that disconnect where they think, well, internally I'm dependent on God and in prayer and things like that. Right. But when I get to my my business, it's eat eat or be eating.
SPEAKER_00He wants me to go do what I want. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and what I think it all honestly is almost a misconception in pe in people's minds of because I because I see that a lot in in church life where people will they grasp a spiritual concept, but they don't allow they they ignore that the actual carrying out of action in their lives does not reflect that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it what's funny about it is that that outer man, the outer the outer um expression of our of what we're doing actually gives a bet a better test of what we really believe than what we think we believe about things. And so, I mean, I see what I I hear what you're saying on that. I think because it's me, I I consider about it from like the book of Book of Acts and Acts chapter two, whenever they uh it says that the early church sold every the people that were there sold everything they had uh or sold sold their property that made them money and income so they could feed feed and care for the poor in their midst. Um and you know, it's kind of a a uh a uh highly, highly um contentious thing, especially as people consider well capitalism versus socialism and things like that. And so um but I I guess where I'm getting to on that is you know, when we talk about independence and talk about independence as a soul killer, I think we gotta be honest about about getting to the core of the thing, right? Like, why is it that I ha I feel this need to be completely financially independent from anybody else in the world? Why is it that I need to not have relationships in my life where if I if I'm struggling, I I can go and ask them for something. Right. And I and I'll be just honest, speaking from again, myself, that I struggle with that. I have a hard time if I'm going through something difficult, asking somebody to help, because in my mind, this great virtue is ha not having need of other people and things.
SPEAKER_00So well, I think it's I think that what's holding us back though is it's it's lordship. I mean, it's it's a lordship complex. And that's and I think that's why Jesus is pushing us to the Lord's Prayer, is because all of us have by nature a lordship complex that we want to control, we want to rule, we want to dictate, we want to reign, and we want things to go the way we want it to go. And and the point is, is once again, we die to ourselves and we are surrendering to the will of God through Jesus Christ. And that's why prayer is such a big part of this, because if you if you stop disciplining yourself to pray, you will just drift towards the flesh, towards the outer person to go back to that same illustration of that's how that's in my flesh, that's what I am. Like all of us are. Like apart from Christ, we just want to rule and reign and dictate and be in charge, call our own shots, and put ourselves number one. I mean, that's that's ultimately our fleshly instinct. And so if you don't crucify that flesh daily by coming back to prayer, reminding yourself that you really are a dependent creature on God, then you're gonna start walking according to the flesh instead of according to the spirit.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think about the parable that Jesus told, one of the few where he actually called somebody a fool when he's talking to the parable of the rich fool. Uh, and in the story, uh what it says is that the guy says, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm well fed, I s I I've done all this stuff, and so I say to myself, self, let's build more bigger barns and things like that. And then uh the response of God on that is you fool, tonight your life will be depend demanded of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But there is that point there of where is the corruption in that man's heart? It's in the I have no need of anything. Yeah. Um, and I think you're absolutely correct, that Lordship piece. Uh and in fact, during the sermon, you made a statement about something, I think it was talking about prayer, but this idea of crying out to the Lord, things like that. And I was just thinking about the nature of that, that we just don't, at least in in our context of the way that we do worship at our church, there's not a lot of crying out. At most, there's a mumble of assent that can kind of sometimes happen. But it's like in the Bible, you see these people who, when they have that ex that experience of spiritual need, they cry out to the Lord, right? Right. Um and I think we get afraid of that because of the control factor.
SPEAKER_00But I think it also shows you how much culture plays uh into how we express ourselves. Yeah. Because to your point of this whole conversation, you know, we are by nature Western individualistic Americans.
SPEAKER_02Get in your house before you talk to in your neighborhood. That's not your neighbor channel.
SPEAKER_00We are trained independents, you know, from a young age, and and we are um trained to not put our guard down, to only show strength, and and any kind of weakness must be hidden. And so it does show you just the complexity and the differences versus when the text is given to a group of people that they were by nature more communal. They were together, and they by nature had a lot of needs. Like they were poor, broke people, most of them. Yeah, and they understood what it meant to be just destitute without anything. And so they wore their emotions culturally on their sleeves far more than we do. Yeah. Um, and sometimes we have to remind ourselves that that's actually in us. We've just probably buried it through culture and tradition over a lot of years.
SPEAKER_02And because of fear, right? Yeah. Because we don't want to be weak. We don't want to be the person that lets other people down. Um, we want to be the person that people turn to for strength. And it what's funny is in our lives, most of the time, the people who are the most willing to talk about their weaknesses and talk about their areas of dependence in in a realistic way, not in a way of complaining, but just be being real about hey, you know, I depend on God for this. I don't I I don't gin this up myself. They tend to be the people that those who have need go to. Um and so if if our tendency is to drift toward independence, what markers can we see that we're sliding that way? That if if if the soul killer of independence is starting to take root in our hearts, what are some markers, Jonathan, that you would identify in people's lives and say, oh man, this is this is becoming a problem for me?
SPEAKER_00I think there's natural signs of drift. Um one, I think your lack of connection to God's people. Um, that happens where you know sometimes it might just start literally with just some church attendance. You're just not around church very much. Um but then there's also the side of you might be at church, but you're actually known by nobody at church. There's that sign too, where I think independence is demonstrated or or evidenced, I should say, through I think a lack of interconnection within the body of Christ. I think when you see that, you're like, yeah, that's probably a red flag, that's a sign. Um, I think also sometimes there's symptomatic things that can come out in us. And I'm not to say that anybody that exhibits these things is independent from God, but I'll just make a list because we're speaking in general terms. When we see an uncanny amount of anxiety and stress that's in our lives, um, which does happen a lot. Um, not to say that does that mean does that always mean your prayer life's horrible? No. I don't want to overstate it, but could it mean it? Yeah, like it could mean it too. And and I also have found that that people that are more disconnected from God, meaning they don't routinely follow any form of disciplines in their lives uh of spiritual nature, there is anxiety and stress and things that seem to uh accelerate, that go up in their lives. And and there's actually social research that backs this statement up, too, that it there is a correlation.
SPEAKER_02Well, and why is that? Because they're putting the pressure on themselves to fix their problems. That's where the anxiety comes from. What do I need to do to avoid bad things happening?
SPEAKER_00And they're missing out on the transactional piece that comes through prayer, even though I don't want to call prayer a transaction, but there is that element when we're told not to be anxious about anything, but with everything through prayer and supplication, present your request to God, and we're told the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will come upon us. And so um people are robbed of that peace. Some of the most peaceful people I know are incredibly prayerful people. And I don't think that's just a blind coincidence. Um but also I will say this too. I know there are prayerful people. There's always going to be exceptions out there that still deeply struggle with anxiety. Yeah. So I don't want to overstate it, but if we're speaking in general terms, yeah, prayer will make an impact, I believe, on your on the anxiousness level of your life and the stress, where this might h offend a few people, but I'll just go ahead and say this. Um I think sometimes in a modern day, and I'm a guy of all guys that has talked plenty about self-care and all those kind of things and the importance of counseling, and I'm for all of those things. But I think sometimes in my generation we've overcomplicated things too, where we always want to diagnose and we always want to see a professional. And I would just go back to the basics of are you getting sleep, working out, eating okay, and praying? Like, are you just doing some of the most fundamental things? Because oftentimes what I think we've missed is that we missed out on these most fundamental things of just having an active relationship with God in a disciplined way. And so much of life I think can be uh combated just through these disciplines, through these pathways that God has given us, but we try to divert going on those pathways and find a new pathway um to meet the need once again in our own independent way to then take care of the issue that God has said is I'm right, I'm right here, I'd love to help you with that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I certainly think it's uh it's probably a both and kind of thing because one one thing that is for certain in it is that if you don't have those regular disciplines in your life, you're certainly not gonna be doing yourself any favors to reducing anxiety and and honestly just living with a realistic perspective of the world. Um and so I mean I I think like a lot of things, you know, combining discipline with the other resources that are out there, correct, and not looking to one or the other as just a well, this is gonna fix it, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say it this way though. I would say if you don't start with the biblical pathways you've missed. Now, the biblical pathways aren't always the only remedy, in other words, where there might be other pathways that need to go beyond. But I think if you're looking at your life and we're talking about these symptoms, if you're seeing some of these symptoms in your life and there is no engagement with the pathways, that is a sign, start there. Um and then of course, if you go there and these things aren't working, that's where I would agree with you. There is the both and approach. But I think I think there is no avoidance of the sacred, is what I'm trying to say. That I think you have to intertwine that into your pathway towards freedom.
SPEAKER_02Now I want to focus in on something you just said though, because you made that statement that if you start doing these things and they're not working, and that's an inter interesting way of phrasing that, right? Because I think a lot a lot of times when it comes to the issues in our lives, if we come at it with discipline after the fact, we get discouraged because it doesn't fix the problem. That's a good word. It's it's not like, oh, my toilet's broken, so I'm gonna go and fix it, right? Right. And sometimes we look at I think we look at pro no, not sometimes, most of the time. I think we look at prayer, fasting, solitude, sorry. Like whenever we get into disciplines after the problem has already started, we get discouraged because we're not seeing the results that are there. Yeah. Uh and the same thing is it's true for counseling. You know, when we talk with counselors, one of their biggest frustrations is that people who are already in crisis are coming to them and expecting after after two sessions to be have an issue that's fixed that's been going on for 15 years. Um it's a it isn't it's something that we need to be aware of, I think. What is the is the goal to and again this relates back to that soul killer of independence, is the goal of the discipline to not have need of anything to to eliminate the problem or the pain, or is it to align ourselves with the heart of God? Exactly. And so I I think I think that's listener, that's an important thing for you to recognize because th throughout this series you've probab I would I would hope that you have been getting to experiment. With these disciplines. And you may be feeling in some in some ways a great payoff of what God's doing through it. And for some of you, you might just be saying, man, this is this is hard. It takes time. And I'm not really I'm not really feeling it yet. Right. But what I would encourage you is that consider your priorities. Consider, all right, what is it that I really actually want to accomplish by doing this? Um because if it is about fixing an issue in your life, I think you're going to be disappointed because ultimately the discipline, there are spiritual disciplines, these spiritual pathways are designed to grow you with God, not with fixing your way through the world. Correct.
SPEAKER_00So well and I and I think that word fixing too, I think all those are valid and wise points. I think uh going to the point of the quick fix too, because I think if you have if you have anxiety, for instance, in your heart, just stay on that topic, it's okay for you not to want that there. You know, it's okay, it's okay for you also to say, I do want this quote fixed. Like this is not healthy. I believe God knows that's not healthy in your life. And and I think it's okay to say, I do want this fixed, but but the key is to your point, most fixes also are not quick, to stay with that same word, where we want quick fixes, where also a lot, a lot of times when we look at the inner person, not just anxiety, but now paint and broad strokes across areas, the problems that plague us were formed usually over years of lack of discipline or bad disciplines, to even use it conversely on the other side of doing the bad things for the inner self. And then we have that kind of come to Jesus moment where we realize this is getting me nowhere. I need to quote, fix this to use that same word. Right. So then we'll start doing those things, but it's not getting us there quickly enough. And what we usually miss is that those years of learned bad behaviors will take years to combat and to reshape and rebuild you. So I would encourage the listener, be patient. But then on the other side, when I was talking about it's not fixing you, I think this is also worth clarifying. When you spend years using that term loosely, but when you spend a lot of time in the disciplines and staying with that topic of anxiety, you're still sensing, man, something's not right in my spirit. Um, that's why I say at that point, now you know, okay, well, I've been doing these things and I can't pray away my anxiety. And yes, and that that is the case for a lot of people. We've talked about that on this podcast, and that's why we are pro counseling and all the other things. But I do really think it's important for us to clarify that if if you're unwilling to do the spiritual legwork on the beginning, you're never going to find your full pathway to healing. Um and sometimes we try to forego that discipline, once again, to get the quick fix of let me get three counseling sessions and get this all to go away.
SPEAKER_02Or we change some of our behavior, but not ultimately the behaviors that led us there in the first place. That's the symptomatic stuff. You know, the sill the silly example, again, I I just love throwing myself under the bus here, but it's like, you know, I started going back to the gym recently. Um but at the same time, the other day I ate a full medium Pizza Hut pizza. So, you know, I'm going to the gym doing that, and I'm like, why am I not losing weight? Well, this other things have to change. Which, you know, maybe going down to half a medium pizza is a good idea. But but I mean, just but being honest with a lot of these things, you know, I think uh where we have to change our mentality on it is that disciplines are they they go in concert with one another, but also we have to change the if there's behavior that led to something being in our lives, then we also not only have to do the disciplines, but also start changing the behaviors that caused us to slide into that in the first place. Right. Um and so I mean there and there's absolutely room for things like that to uh to talk about like even if you wind up seeing a counselor for something, you know, to talk about what what is it really that got you here into this mindset? Like what what is it that that made you feel start feeling like this that then you just in order to make life easier, you felt like I need to be an independent person. And so then that changes all these other things. And so um one other question that I had on this is that back to the kind of the the drift toward independence and markers there. Do you think generosity is a part of one of the markers that people are should be considering? Like if if there's a if there's some kind of issue in generosity for them, does that relate to independence at all as a soul killer?
SPEAKER_00Or well, I think generosity will flow out from a prayer-filled, spiritual filled life. And so I think I think if there's a lack of generosity, generosity ultimately is just a it's fruit, it's fruit coming from us of uh of a transformed heart doing transformed things, which is basically letting go of money freely as God directs. So if there's never any generosity with your time, talent, or treasure to use the trifecta, yeah, I would say that's probably a symptom showing that there probably is something going on in your heart, and and maybe it is. Maybe it is that you haven't leaned in into a dependent life on God, making yourself fully accessible. Um, and instead maybe you're in a protectionist mindset where it's just all independence of my direction and my kingdom come, my will be done. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And well, and ultimately when you talk to people about lacking uh why why they're not being generous in whatever moment, it's it's usually not because they don't want they don't have in their mind this idea that I don't want to be a generous person. It's always, well, I've got this project in the works right now, and so when that comes through, then I'll feel safe enough to be able to do this. And you know, when we're talking about depending depend the dependence of prayer versus the independence against prayer, one of the best ways you can feel independent in prayer is having a solid bank account, or frankly, having a struggling bank account and still being afraid of practicing a the calling to generosity that God calls you to. Um because again, it's it's it's it's interesting how um, you know, in life you can have a small bank account and be generous to the to the percentages of what you actually have, and it hurts and it's hard, but it's rewarding, right? Yeah. But it is a discipline as a part of the of that independent uh about being dependent on God, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's because all the hard things ultimately require faith and trust, which that trust and that faith is built and cultivated through prayer. That's one of those pathways that helps build up that faith, and then that will overflow into some of those actions. But I think it's generosity, and it'd be a lot of other things. I mean, I when you were talking about generosity, it made me think of the same metaphor with having kids. Most people usually have the same mindset. Well, we'll have a kid when we get to this place or whatever, and talking about a married couple that's trying to decide when when's God leading them to have kids. Usually they have in their mind, well, we got to get to X number in the bank account, same things. We've got to have certain size house, this and that. And it's like all the hard things in life, there's never a good time to do them. That's why they're hard. And and I think and I think that's just a good point to reinforce to anyone. Maybe it's not money or family planning is your issue, but I just want to remind you, anything hard in life or everything good in life that's gonna do something really transformational in your life or others, it's gonna be hard. And it's never easy to do the hard thing. Um, but that's why the power of prayer going full circle to that, that's so important because God builds up your faith through that. He's reminding you of his presence in your life and he's realigning you to his will to where then you're saying, yeah, it doesn't make sense, but God. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this and take the step of faith.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then God rewards that faith is what I've found time and time again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, so with that then, what can we do to fight independence as a soul killer? I know we've talked about prayer in general, but are there any other habits or um directives that we would want to look toward to help build that idea that to fight against that soul killer of independence?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell, you know, one thing I I wouldn't even necessarily plan to talk about it right now, but we had a staff chapel this morning and I was reading Psalm 1 and I was talking about the idea of meditation, because it's right there in the text that you meditate on the law day and night is what the psalmist writes in chapter one. And I was talking about this because I think meditation is one of those things that gets lost in our everyday life because it only sounds like an Eastern religion idea and or yoga, and we're just like, what does that even mean? And how's that apply? But that idea of meditation is saturated throughout the scriptures, and really I see it as that bridge between your Bible intake and your prayer life. And I think sometimes people have weak prayer lives because they haven't caused or they haven't created time to meditate on God's word, which then cultivates prayer in your life. Because as you meditate, you are pausing, reflecting, um, dwelling on the truth that you're reading. And we've already talked about scripture reading on this podcast, but that will transform you as you're dwelling and having a purposeful conversation, thought process with God according to his word, that then feeds into your prayer life. Because I think a lot of people that struggle with prayer and trying to figure out how do I fight back and do this, it's hard to start a prayer life. It really is. Like, and so it's like, how do you get momentum in there? And I think one of the catalysts that can help give that momentum really is meditation of read God's word, ask for the Spirit to reveal a word to you through that, a verse, whatever it may be, then spend some time thinking about that word, about that scripture, talking to God about just that one word or that scripture. What does it make you feel like slow yourself down basically to ponder and reflect because God just spoke to you through that scripture? And then as you've after you've worked through that process, then you can start talking about all the things on your heart that are ultimately relevant to that word that was presented to you. But once again, it comes to that commonality of time, like time, time. You have to slow down to undergo those disciplines uh that I'm already mentioning that even kind of precurse the discipline of prayer. It's Bible intake, it's meditation, and that leads into prayer. So um, how do you fight? I mean, I just would start there. You just have to you have to control to the best of your ability your schedule.
SPEAKER_02Which is interesting. You know, you're talking about that, and even with the psalms, I know some folks who will, you know, will take the psalm and it's part of their meditation and then pray that psalm and try to place themselves in the shoes of the psalmist, of the songwriter. How do I feel about this? Why am I expressing to God? Things like that. Now, granted, that will get a little weird if you're talking about the bathing your feet in your enemy's blood piece, but you know, we're just gonna skip we're gonna scoot on past that. Yeah. But uh, I think another thing too, uh, because you made that statement earlier about community and communion there. You know, I think a lot of what independence does to our souls is it causes us to close up the areas where we have where we have fears, where we have hurts, uh, where we have insecurities. Um and so I think one of the things that that I would recognize as a as a fighter of independence is choosing to uh communicate and be open and and vulnerable in inappropriate channels about fears, insecurities, hurts. Um if we're able to do that, then because I think sometimes we we don't want to express these things because we're afraid we'll either be looked down upon or be seen as weak or be seen as dependent on other people. But in reality, anything that we hold on to there winds up dragging us down and being baggage itself. And so I think that idea of not just being in community with people, but establishing and again I I'm appropriate channels like you know, young single men don't do this with young single women. Like it's it's a it's some that's a whole other kettle of fish of uh trans transference into intimacy. Um but but finding people who um who you can entrust that kind of stuff to um can help a lot with the understanding of hey, I can't do this on my own. And and you know what? God doesn't want me to do it on my own. Right. Um God didn't make me to do this on my own. And so I I think that's a large part of what that intentional community can look like. And I do think it might be good. I know and I know we've been going for a bit here on this, but Jonathan, as far as for people who are wanting in this series, the spiritual pathways, we've talked about community a lot. But what about for the person that says I'm having a really hard time finding my way into a church community? And I I come to this place that's full of people who seem like they have it all together. I know I don't have it all together, but I don't want it the first thing I do to come in to be talking about all my problems to these people. What how does a person actually get in get engaged in a community in the church in such a way where they can get to this level of trust?
SPEAKER_00I think it's it's just intentionality, number one, you know, get to know the organization of that local church. How do people connect? If it's a healthy church, there are going to be pathways of groups, of some kind of support system in place. So sometimes it might even be a precursor to that if you're new to a church, is literally set up an appointment with one of the ministers or a leader there and just have a candid conversation of where you're at, what you're looking for, you know, how do y'all build community in the church? Learn. And then from there, based on those systems, because every church will have different systems of on-ramping and getting people engaged. I I would encourage you choose one of those on-ramps and then commit to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and commit to it for a while, like for a long time. Once again, it's like the counseling metaphor. We always want the quick fix. Um, and community is not born overnight. And so does it what does it mean? It means being a group every week, you know? It means probably being the proactive awkward one asking one or two of them if they want to get together outside of the group. Same thing to build that relationship further. Um, because I think a lot of problems we have comes from that insecurity that we want to be pursued, we fear pursuing because we think we're gonna be rejected. I would I would equate much of church um perspective of us looking for a church, much like looking for a significant other, as far as like a I'll just speak as a man. When when as a man before I got married, yeah. When you're when you're trying to date a woman, every man comes to the same place at some point in his life. Am I gonna be more comfortable being lonely? Um, or am I or am I willing to actually make myself a little vulnerable and ask a girl out and and have my heart broken potentially? And we all have to eventually suck it up and say, Yeah, I hate being lonely. Um I think I'm gonna pursue and ask somebody out. And I think the same kind of thing comes into the whole idea of finding a church community, is you have to come to that place of, oh, I'm tired of this. I'm gonna make myself a little vulnerable here. And I'm gonna ask this church out, you know, in that sense, if I'm gonna pursue and I'm gonna ask and find a way that I can build that relationship. Um, and I think God will bless it. But I guess I hope that's helpful. It's just that I think so often we just sit back and just hope, kind of like we hope, oh, well, I hope God will send me a perfect wife that'll just like somehow come find me somewhere.
SPEAKER_02And then how mean would that be for God to send somebody a perfect wife? Why would we do that to her? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00But I think there's so many like passive men, this is me on a soapbox, they're just like hoping, man, some woman's gonna find me and God's gonna send that one to me. It's like, or you can have your eyes open and go pursue. And and uh and it's the same thing like for a church. There's a lot of great churches. Go pursue, go find one.
SPEAKER_02Well, and one I think wise piece of advice that I've heard people give before is that if you are visiting in a new church, give it like three months. Yes. So I mean, because one thing peop someone might hear that and say, Well, I guess I gotta go to one and stay there forever. And and there are some times where you're gonna get into a church community and either because of theology or because of various uh leadership stuff like that, there's it's just not a fit. Um and so it is helpful to give yourself a little bit of a, hey, you know what, I'm gonna give this, I'm gonna be here for three months. It's gonna see me through a season in the church. I'll be able to really get an idea of this. However, you still, if you're gonna commit, you still got to commit at the end of that period. So um you just gotta be prepared for that. But I I've found that for some people having an actual goal, yeah, okay, this is what I want to try to do. And then if I still feel an unease in my spirit about this, then I may go try to go somewhere else. And so um, but I think you're absolutely correct that church is kind of like a middle school dance. Everybody's looking at each other and wondering why they're not having a good time.
SPEAKER_00Who's gonna yeah, who's gonna ask me to dance? It's like you go ask them to dance, you you go build the relationship. Go do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, uh so uh one last thing before we sign off today is kind of the the opposite side of that then, with the uh for uh we made that statement earlier. What kind of markers would I be able to expect if I'm sliding into independence? What kind of markers can we expect if we are doing this well? Are there in are there any um characteristics or things that we could we uh can see developing naturally in our life as we are doing this well?
SPEAKER_00Transformation will happen in your life. I just kind of we could qualify that a lot of different ways. But because I was talking about the main point of the sermon is God wants time with you and God wants to transform you. And so if you're praying and you're actively involved in that discipline to go back to that word, I do think over time you'll begin to see transformation. And and I talked about in the sermon ways he transforms us through that prayer, but I'll just say it this way in a more general sense. You'll see that you're not the same person you were before. Um, and your heart will start to desire the things God desires, and you'll start to uh despise the things that God despises. And and so your heart will begin to be transformed. And some of that can even be displayed through general things, like for instance, there will come the day, and this might be hard for some of you to believe if you don't go to church much, where if you're living a disciplined spiritual life and you are actively engaging God all week long, you're gonna look forward to going to church on Sunday. That's not gonna be like a, oh, I have to wake up and go. There's a genuine excitement. I'm gonna go worship with God, worship God with other believers and see, see my friends, see my community. Um, those are transformational things that are happening because people are being transformed all week long by the living God. Um, so I think that the way we treat people, the way we see people, those things will all be changed. And even beyond that, I do think there's some of the symptomatic things that I was alluding to earlier where I believe you will experience more peace in your life. Um hopefully, Lord willing, you'll be able to sleep well. Um those things. These are all just kind of the basic symptomatic things. Um but I think they do come from a a soul well taken care of and and that God usually rewards us with those things when we are walking in active relationship with him.
SPEAKER_02Well and I think also for people that I've seen do this well, I I've seen when they hit uh reaction mode, what they reach for initially changes, right? Yeah. That instead of, you know, if you're a stress eater reaching for the thing of ice cream, there's a you know what, God, how can I how can I occupy my mind in a better way during this time period? Uh if some if you're facing an actual catastrophe or or uh a death in the family or something like that, instead of a immediately freaking out and trying to figure out a a safety plan or uh or another plan, it's a stop, I'm gonna stop and ask God to give me wisdom for how to deal with these things. Um I think a lot of the the signs of real life change come in your reactions. Yeah, and um because you can't you don't always control what your reaction is gonna be, but if God's doing that change there, you'll you'll start seeing the muscle memory happening.
SPEAKER_00You will. And you'll sense him in your life where you're not even having to uh make a conscious decision. You're just more controlled by the spirit, in other words, because you're yielding yourself actively to him every day. Um and I would agree with you, some of the strongest people any of us will ever know, the ones that are not as easily rattled, not to say they'll never be rattled, but they're not as easily rattled, is exactly the prayerful people. I really do believe that. Um, because God's prepared them for the moment through the prayer they've already had earlier the earlier and all day long.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think about it when uh God's relationship with Adam and Eve wasn't a come and apply to me to for me to interact with you. It's a walk in the garden. You walk in the garden together, um, and it changes the way that your perspective of God works. So, Jonathan, anything else before we close off for today? All good. All right. Well, friends, thank you for joining us for this Soul Killer series uh as we continue uh walking through these spiritual pathways. And again, our encouragement to you is that the best way to learn about spiritual disciplines is by interacting with them, by challenging yourself, by growing in them, bringing people around yourself around yourself to help keep you accountable and to encourage you. Um let's start by doing. And if uh if we as a church can be of any help to you, feel free to reach out at to uh info at AustinBaptistchurch.com or through direct message at our Instagram at Austin Baptist Church. But otherwise, friends, we hope that God continues to reveal Himself to you as you declare your dependence. See, see, then got a pun there. Um, but that you declare your dependence on God through through a rich and vibrant prayer life. So, friends, thank you for joining us today, and we'll see you next time on the Citizen ATX Podcast.