Citizen ATX
Citizen ATX
Soul Killers: Indulgence
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There are many vices in the world that will quickly bring us to a place of indulgence. These things are often good on their own, but with too much attention they can become a distraction from the purpose that God has called us to. Join Jonathan and Matt as they discuss this last Soul Killer: Indulgence.
Hello there and welcome to the Citizen ATX Podcast. My name is Matt Gillam, and we're glad you're joining us as we conclude our Soul Killers series. Each of the episodes of this series, we have been following along with the sermons going on at Austin Baptist Church as we've been talking about spiritual pathways. But each week in each episode, we've also been looking at the corresponding soul killer that goes alongside that spiritual pathway or spiritual discipline. And so this week we're going to be talking about the soul killer of indulgence. And so with me in the theater is Jonathan Spencer. Hello, Jonathan. Howdy, Matthew. And so, Jonathan, let's just start from a place of definition. What do we mean by indulgence? What does that word even mean? Because I I I don't know that I use that word often outside of describing a chocolate commercial or something like that. Something being indulgence.
SPEAKER_02Well, to indulge, uh it really means to allow yourself to uh receive something enjoyable or pleasurable, I guess would be a layman's definition I would give it. It would just mean to allow yourself to have something enjoyable in your life. I think that's the way we usually characterize it. I'm sure there's something much more academic than that. But I think I think at its basic place, what what the the paradox or I guess the uh the continuum we're trying to present is there's that side of fasting, which is the d denial of those things. And then indulgence on the other side is the embracing of those things that will lead to pleasure and enjoyment.
SPEAKER_00Is there a level of degree there in that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_02And and and that's where I guess it gets into the whole topic of really how much is overly indulging and how much is too much. Um you know, God does make things for us to enjoy. It's good to enjoy his good creation, and that actually can become a work act of worship in and of itself. But there also is such a thing as overly indulging and to the point where where it's uh not in a God-honoring way.
SPEAKER_00Well, and this was popularized in a show called Parks and Wreck of the treat yourself, right? The the day where you do whatever it is you want because you want it, and which I don't get the economics of that, but at the same time, I I think like every uh advertisement for a spa that I've ever heard or seen, um, or like I said, chocolate commercials, things like that, like they they dive into that idea of indulging yourself, right? Um and it's it's interesting because it's almost like in those kinds of advertisements, when they talk about indulgence, it includes this idea that, hey, your life is tough and difficult and bad things happen to you, so you you are warranted in doing and participating in this and in overdoing it here, right? Um I mean, so any thoughts on that? I mean, is that Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_02I think I think it's meant to be medicinal in a lot of ways. It's therapeutic that we indulge to numb pain or to you know somehow give us a reprieve from whatever is plaguing us. I think the other thing that comes when you think of indulging is the idea of yielding to your desire, like that that that's always a good thing. Um, because that's why oftentimes, from your from your point, you know, the marketing side, it's always trying to lure that desire in you for something that you're wanting and encouraging you to yield to that desire because that is the best thing for you. And the Bible teaches actually the opposite that sometimes yielding to our desire is the worst thing possible for us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think about it like those giant toberones they sell at the airport. Yeah. It's like the size of a bazooka, and nobody in any context would ever need a toberone that big. Right. And yet it looks good. I'm gonna be on that plane for three hours. I need something to do, and so maybe I'll uh go after that uh tree-sized toberone.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, so then let's talk about this because the whole series is called Soul Killers, and each of these weeks we've been talking about things that uh diminish us, uh that especially in our spiritual relationship. So why is indulgence, as we're defining it, a soul killer? Like what what I mean really, if it really is the case that you worked a 60-hour work week in that gummet, you wanna you want to indulge in a little bit in a well not a little bit in a pint of ice cream, right? Like what where is why why is it that a soul killer in particular?
SPEAKER_02I think it just comes down ultimately to uh an issue of uh lordship, really. Um and the reason I use that word is is ultimately as Christians, we're supposed to yield our lives to the control and leadership of God. That ultimately uh that He is the one in control, He's the one that we are following, it's His will for our lives. Um we're called not to be mastered by anything. Um that's why I brought up that verse in 1 Corinthians 6 12 over the weekend where Paul talks about how I will not be dominated by anything. And that's the point is he's saying, I only want to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. And so you have that kind of dichotomy where there's the biblical life that we're called to die to ourselves and follow follow Jesus Christ as master and lord. But then on this side of indulgence, what that teaches is you are Lord and and cave to whatever you want, to that carnal desire. And the Bible says sometimes our carnal desires aren't actually what our master wants from us, and that's where the the issue becomes a problem.
SPEAKER_00There is an irony there because you know you're talking about that in the the terms of control and making decisions for yourself, and yet indulgence seems to be a setup where you're not making decisions, you're kind of just diving into it. But then also uh there's another question in there, like we talk about uh the fruits of the spirit, one of them is self-control. So are are we supposed to be in control of ourselves or are we not supposed to be in control of ourselves? Because if it's a fruit of the spirit that I'm practicing this kind of internal self-control in what I'm doing, and then if indulgence is giving too much control to ourselves, what what how does that that weigh out?
SPEAKER_02All all acts of obedience, I would argue, it's grace-driven effort. That's what it is. And what I mean by that is it's an act of grace through the power of the Holy Spirit who's enabling you. It's that enabling grace that he's giving you the power in this case to exercise self-control, but it also is you yielding yourself to his power in your life. That's why I use that word effort, that's a grace-driven effort that you need God to do it, you can't do it on your own, but you also have to step up and submit that desire to the Lord so that he can work through you. So it's not like you can just push a button and push the God button, and then he just does it all without any kind of toil or effort on your part. So it's it's kind of that both and approach where I think we have to make conscious decisions, but God is the one who's given us the power to do what he said we can do, in this case, have self-control.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's uh interesting, uh, even in the consideration of what self-control is defined as, it's not defined as a spiritual discipline, it's defined as a fruit of the spirit. Yeah. So is that is there a reason for that? Like, um, because I mean, and and does that play into our conversation here at all? That, hey, you know, when we look at this idea of control and the idea of self-control, it's termed in the Bible as a um, even though I think elsewhere it does kind of talk about like a spiritual discipline in some ways, but at least in Galatians 5, it makes the statement that it is a fruit of the spirit. So should we make any kind of a distinction there?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it it is a fruit, um, but that fruit then helps us exercise discipline, in other words, because the two are related, that we cannot control and rule over our flesh in our own carnal, earthly, worldly state. Like we we we are all slaves to our sin, Romans chapter six. But then when we give our lives to Christ, we're made alive in Christ. And now the power is put in us where we have a power of self-control. We're no longer we are no longer being ruled by our flesh. Christ rules over us, and he's given us power through his spirit to overcome and to make good, healthy, god-honoring, and human flourishing decisions. But now that we have that capacity of self-control, that then leads into the discipline acts that we know will be fruitful and helpful for us and others. So I think they're they're all married together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's kind of a supernatural quality to that. And it it kind of also speaks to the scripture that says that uh those who don't believe will be surprised that you don't run with them into these sinful things because they don't have that spiritual fruit of self-control there, at least in the same ways we're we're terming it here. Because I mean, I think that is an important thing for you to understand, listener, that you know, when we're talking about the grace of Christ, it doesn't make any sense to not indulge in things based on your biology. Um there is something about that that is nonsensical, that is or I shouldn't say nonsensical, but it's outside of your natural inclination. Um and so anyway, I think that's an important distinction. And so with that, there is a question I made that statement earlier of degree, um, but there's also this idea of okay, so we're not supposed to indulge in things, then does that mean that the opposite is good? That if we if we uh self-deny, or uh I use the the term hyper I practice hyper asceticism. Yeah. Um but self-denial self-deny is a bit better. Um if we so we're not supposed to uh um to indulge in stuff, so does that mean that we should practice radical self-denial? Um because if one is bad, then wouldn't the other one be even gooder?
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, I think it depends how you define radical, because some people would call things radical t nowadays that I would call just biblical, you know, as far as denying your flesh and your your sinful instincts. But I I know what you're talking about is the you know the the hyper asceticism to use the to use that term you used earlier. Um and that is a whole nother level of crazy than I think you have to get into.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay, and and I'll I'm I am leading this a bit. There there's a there's something I'm thinking about particularly. Um but you know, historically you had uh sometimes in the church these people call self-flagellators, people that would take whips and would beat their the beat their own backs, make themselves bleed, because they looked in the Bible and they said, Well, this counts me as uh suffering along the same kind of sufferings as Christ. And if I'm supposed to be doing that, but I'm not suffering, then am I doing something wrong? And so they would cause pain to themselves so that they could basically manufacture that su uh suffering alongside what Christ did. Right. And it wasn't just that. I mean, you'd have these uh hermits that would shut themselves up in caves, and uh and actually I saw some of these when I went to Kiev. Yeah they had this underground crypt complex where these there'd be a hermit go into a cave, they would seal it up and leave a hole that was about eight inches wide so that they could get food and water through it, but they never left otherwise. I mean it's it was crazy. And and so I mean, I think that's the historical precedent, but you know, there there's another side to this where that that I think is more relatable to especially you listeners in this time, and it's things like cutting and things like um anorexia and starving yourself and bulimia. Like you know, we talk about this self this radical self-denial piece as being crazy, and yet these are things that we still we do see out there. Um and I guess kind of the point that I'm leading to is that self-denial is to that level is uh exactly the same as overindulgence. It is. And and so why would you why would you think that?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's ultimately it's uh it's you exercising control in an unhealthy way on the opposite end of the spectrum. Um and and it's also in a it's also anti-gospel in the sense of the reason why you're doing those things, particularly when you were alluding to especially some of the early church traditions of that, where you get those examples, um, it was them punishing themselves for their own sins where theology teaches us Christ was punished for us. Um so we don't have to atone for those sins.
SPEAKER_00And and one hint is that a lot of this stuff and historically is was heresy. They believed that they had to punish out the pain or punish out the uh sin in their lives so they could become perfect like God. Right. And that is a basic heresy of faith.
SPEAKER_02And that is the difference between, for instance, biblical fasting versus, like you're saying, whipping yourself, because biblical fasting is not about punishing yourself or starving yourself. Yeah, those those things the disciplines are not about punishment, it's actually about experiencing God. That's the point, is you you are not punishing, you are leaning into God to experience more of Him. So if it comes from a punitive mindset where you are full of shame or self-loathing and you're doing all these things, that's that's a very anti-gospel mindset where you're you're you lack that true understanding of grace and really what that means. Um, and then also there's a self-righteousness that comes into that component too, where people that would follow within those camps of of the early century church that you're alluding to, they were seeking to purify themselves and distinguish themselves basically above everyone else, which really underneath all of that piousness really is a layer of self-righteousness and insecurity and insecurity, yeah, absolutely. And so none of those things are godly and virtuous according to the word of God. So so it it it's combative to that point of what really God is looking for us. It's it's really once again, like you said, it's kind of like indulgence, just on the other side of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because the motivations are the same. I'm going to control my life, the things that I want. And it it's also honestly kind of superstitious at a point when you go the other way, because it becomes a well, if I do this, then God will do this for me. And what's ironic about that is that we do have examples in scriptures of people scripture people who did that, but usually they were pagan idolaters, like the uh the uh priests of Baal uh that interacted with Elijah. They thought I'm gonna cut, I'm gonna we're gonna cut ourselves so that our God will pay attention to us. Um and so I think there is a level of insecurity there that that craves that control um that creates some of those issues. And we'll we'll talk a little bit more about that, I think, um down toward the the the end of this conversation. But so if if that extreme is there of um so the extreme self-denial is not the way to go, and the I mean obviously extreme indulgence is not either, then how can a person regularly fight the soul soul killer of indulgence? Um like if if we're talking because I mean we're not talking about hey, I'm gonna set up a seven-day fast, right? I'm gonna m make this big old thing, and you talked a lot about that in the sermon. So what for the for the average Joe Christian, what does it look like regularly to combat the soul killer of indulgence?
SPEAKER_02I I know on the opposite end of the spectrum is fasting, which is what I talked about in the sermon, but that's really just one way. Um I would argue any of the pathways really kind of help you with that of overcoming um that side of indulgence, because on indulgence, you're going after essentially carnal, fleshly things to uh help you cope with your pain, help you to numb the world. And ultimately, God is the one we need. He's our our strong and mighty fortress. So the the solution in many ways is saying no to the things of this world and then saying yes more to him, which is yielding your life more so. And how do you yield? Oftentimes it is through these individual pathways and and and those different disciplines to use that word. Fasting is the one I focused on because it is such a uh it's on the same topic. It's pretty apparent. Yeah, it's it's on the same uh, I don't know what the right word would be, but on the same spectrum essentially, because if we're talking about over consuming versus under consuming, it's kind of that same continuum. So fasting, I think, is one of those um helpful reminders when done correctly to remind you that that Christ is Lord, He's who you need. Um, these other things aren't gonna satisfy you. They're not gonna ultimately numb your pain, they're not going to do that. Jesus is the one who heals.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I think making a concerted effort by enacting some of those disciplines. And I think fasting is just a very practical one. I know I talked about in the sermon, but just committing to do a 24-hour fast every now and then, whether that be from food, I talked about, or I talked about other things. Social media. Yeah, because they're those are the same things we indulge. We don't have to indulge only on food, we indulge on everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so pick something else that you overly indulge in. I've got kind of a funny example of this. I don't I I Stephen, why do I throw myself under the bus every time? Stephen Vaughn is our producer and he always laughs when we talk about these. But um so I recently came off of a sabbatical, and one of the things that I committed to do uh over the course of the sabbatical is I deleted Facebook and uh Instagram off of my phone. I mean, I still kept it on my on my computer so that I could post things and things like that, but it's different having it on your phone versus having a computer. Well, do you know what I did then? I found myself crazy scrolling LinkedIn. I got real into LinkedIn. Oh man, I was all about that CEO life and efficiency and AI and stuff like that. But it was funny because you know, you think, oh, it's just the the form of the thing. It's oh it is Facebook, it is Instagram, it is TikTok, whatever. But it wasn't that. It was that craving of I need information, I need stimulation, I need things like that. And really that was what I had that was what had to be addressed was not the the avenue or the channel, but the thing that was driving me to that avenue of the channel. And so I had to limit myself. I think I at one point also took like LinkedIn off my phone because you know I had to get off of that. But um, but it is interesting because I think when we talk about fasting, we we focus so much on the form of it of how long and what things do you cut out and what what things it's without ever addressing the real issue underneath. And you I mean I know that you you spoke about that quite a bit on Sunday, even particular to if you're fasting to lose weight, well there's your sign, you know. Like but the um but that is the reality of it that you know w we have to point beyond just the action to the the motivation to the spirit to the to the thing that has to change, right? Yeah and and it ironically, it is an idea of giving up of control when you go without something because you are relying upon God for that, like the birds, like the flowers, like you know, like Jesus when he says uh man does not live on bread alone but from every word that comes from the mouth of God.
SPEAKER_02And by giving up that control, you're actually claiming your self-control. That's kind of the irony of the statement, is you're actually letting go of that controlling thing, controlling compulsion, and you're now exercising self-control, saying, You're not my master, I will not be owned by you, and instead I'm now going to yield my life to this. Um and it and it also means I think there's times and seasons for all that. That's why I also stressed in the sermon that it is a voluntary act, it's not, it's not meant to be something that you have to do constantly all the time, and we don't have to be guilty going back to your, you know, the asceticism side of where you constantly live your life in that avenue where it's like, oh, I always have to be doing something, punishing myself. That's not the point. It's voluntary, and oftentimes I think the spirit even prompts us on when we need to be doing these things. Um, but it is helpful, and without it, you're not gonna really, I think, grow in that in that fruit of self-control.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I do wonder, uh I'm trying to think on this. I don't have the data in front of me, but I wonder I wonder because you made that statement about how often it talks about fasting in the Bible and gives commands on that. How often does it give commands to feast and to celebrate?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think about the fact that the Passover they didn't celebrate it for really long periods of time. And um I mean, that was as big of a problem, if not a bigger problem, than their scheduled fasts. I mean, because I I I see that in the in the minor prophets when it says I I despise your feasts and your fasts and all these different things.
SPEAKER_02But the irony is like the fast and the feast of the Bible, as you already know, both of those ultimately were aimed at they're both aimed at the same point. Fasting and feasting both are about bringing glory to God. And and that's the point that when you're feasting in a biblical sense, it's because you're celebrating something God did in your life, in the life of Israel, in the case of many of those feasts. It's like, wow, remember what God did. Let's praise him for that. Um when we feast and in the indulgence side, uh, usually we're not celebrating God. We are oftentimes loathing ourselves. Yeah. Um, you know, it's it's a completely different picture there, but but either whether you fast or feast, it's supposed to be for the glory of God.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's funny. And when I was in college, I uh I was thinking on this topic, and I think I was even I had even been reading Richard Foster and this uh celebration of discipline and this top this idea of celebrating, you know, the what's given, the providence that God gives. And I got Taco Bell on a Sunday afternoon, and I went home and I sat down. I'm like, you know what, God, I'm gonna worship you in this Taco Bell. I'm gonna I'm gonna eat eat eat this quesadilla to the glory of God. Like, and it sounds silly, but it did, I mean it rather than just stuffing my face, it changed my outlook on it. I was able to worship God for the good thing that He gave. And yes, Taco Bell can be good, all right. So all of you haters out there toward the bell, back up, but uh do not do not take what the Lord calls good and call it evil. Um, but I mean the it was an opportunity to teach me on that that it was that I wasn't like stuffing my face, I was eating just a normal meal, but the the the emotion of feasting and that that discipline of celebration, which is one of Foster's big pieces, uh it it doesn't have to be overdone. It's just doing it to the the utmost of what it was created for, right?
SPEAKER_02And and in really ways, in many ways, that's what you know, even a biblical just prayer, what we exercise as a prayer before a meal, essentially is the same thing. Yeah, it's it's just honoring God and celebrating God, thank you. There's food here I get to eat, and this is gonna be awesome. And I and it's okay if your food tastes good. Like it, you know, that's something to celebrate in that sense of not only did you give me food, this food's gonna be awesome. Thank you, Lord. You know, you're you're very generous with me. That's supposed to be the heart behind the prayer, but we usually miss it just with you know religious uh acts and rituals.
SPEAKER_00Well, and we also try again try to take control of it for ourselves, and the there's the whole principle of it's not a party if it happens every night kind of thing. And there is something to be said about storing up for a good occasion. Um, but again, I mean it's it's interesting to me how much of this. This actually comes down to that idea of control and being able to cultivate and curate our own environments. And so one question I have uh coming from the sermon also on Sunday is what is the line between private deprivation and public communication about it? And in particular, you know, even the base text that you used, you talked about from the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus said, don't go around painting your face like you're all sad and stuff, and you know, just go do it in private. Well, if if we do that, which we should do that, uh fast in private, how then can we with a good conscience communicate about that outside of just our personal experience?
SPEAKER_02Well, one thing too, I'll add before I even answer that question, I want to reiterate, I said it in the sermon, there is such a thing as public fast, too. Like Jesus is speaking in the context of a private fast, but there were public fasts that happened in the Old Testament and New. And so there are seasons for a public fast, meaning we aren't doing this in secret, we're actually doing it together as a faith body, as a faith family for a specific purpose where we're seeking God's face on fill in the blank, whatever that issue is. So that can be done good and righteously. I would say it also should be done biblically, really, with the leader of that faith family probably leading and shepherding that exercise together. But when we get into the private fast, going back to the point of that text of Jesus, there are gonna be probably some people they're gonna have to know. Um, particularly, you know, for instance, if you're married and you're exercising a fast, it would be biblical and fine for you to tell your spouse, because it probably means guess what? You can't eat with them for a little while. And they live with you, and they're gonna know that. And they might even need to help you, maybe not eat in front of you or or make it easier on you. Um, this is kind of an uncomfortable topic of fast, but I'll bring it up because I didn't say it in the sermon. There's even a sex fast that's listed in scripture between married adults in 1 Corinthians chapter seven, it actually says, you know, because it's talking about how not to deny your spouse physically and that we're supposed to continue to come together as one. But it says, except for a season where you are mute by mutual agreement choosing to abstain once again to lean into the Lord. So that that's a perfect example of that was a form of fast, you know, that some people were doing apparently back then in the first century, where but they were publicly sharing that with their spouse of hey, I'm in a season, I'm leaning to the Lord, I'm abstaining from these things in that case, including uh sexual activity with their spouse. So I think you it's more of a need-to-know basis, I guess, Matt, it would be my best word of encouragement is tell those who need to know that it might impact them or they might impact you. And then if you're gonna open your mouth beyond that, it better be because it's to be helpful for someone else rather than bring the spotlight on you and your experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I I think about it also in the context of younger people hearing about it. And we made that statement earlier about eating disorders where it can be very tricky for some people of, you know, I I hear this this grown-up talking about this, so does that mean that it's okay that I shouldn't eat for and I mean there and you may and we do reference this always about the medical side of this, but there is a burden that goes there that be with the way that we talk about this, are we also talking about it in the context of what is God teaching us through it and and redirecting away from just the activity but to the spiritual reasoning behind it. Um and I mean the same thing for uh sexual fasting as well. I mean, there there's a very important caveat on there of this is for a season. Yeah, it's not a good one. It's not forever. And and uh and but what that does is it says, hey, this is for a purpose. This is not just because, uh not because I want and in the context of what he was talking about and uh Paul was talking about in Corinthians, yeah, part of that was um the the temptation that they had was because there was the temple to Aphrodite in that city, and because there was cult prostitution, some of the Christians were battling with that idea of, well, I guess that means that I have to be chased in order to be a Christian, and I I can't have uh relations with my wife anymore. Well, I mean, that's a problem. And and you know, again, don't call things that God says are good is evil. Right. Um and so uh yeah, and I I I think it you're exactly right. Where are we drawing the attention to? What is the purpose of us sharing about it? Is it practical or is it from the from the side of uh drawing attention to what we're doing and looking for a cheering a cheering section?
SPEAKER_02Well, because people do need to hear, in a sense, from other Christians about their prayer lives and their fasting lives. And Jesus speaks about both of those in Matthew 6, and in both of those passages, he talks about the necessity for a private prayer life and a private fasting life. But the way we disciple one another is we do talk about these things because we're teaching one another and exhorting one another to do the same. So that's why I say it's not wrong to talk about it. I don't think that was Jesus' point that you can't tell somebody ever that you fast. It's just once again, it's heart motivation, and then what's the right context? What I've seen that's that's irked me over the years is I've seen pastors uh write and preach about really braggadociously of how long they fasted. Yeah, you know, that I've done a 40-day fast and let me tell you how I did it, and this is what I got to. Now, once again, I'm not the thought police, the heart police. That's God. He knows all those things. I don't. Um, but as I'm listening to that and I've heard different communicators over my lifetime, I instantly just kind of have my spidey sense go off of like, I don't know about that dude. Because the way he's speaking of it, it's coming off just very self-serving, yeah. Um, very, very uplifting of himself. Um, not to say it's wrong for him to bring it up, but maybe the spirit can bring you up to bring that up to a preacher to share that with a congregation. But once again, you got to be careful of what are they gonna walk away with from this? Is it is it they're gonna be like, wow, my pastor fasted for that amount of time. He's a he's a hoss, man. Look at that guy.
SPEAKER_00He he knows how to get it done. I think more of the time it's hey, I should go buy his book. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, I need to go, I need to go learn more from this guru.
SPEAKER_00Um is that mean? Is that mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that but that is the danger of it all because that's the way it usually will be heard. Where I think, though, if it's in a small group, if you're talking one-on-one especially, yes, share your stories. I think that is fantastic, and you should.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it what as this ties in with all the rest of the pathways and disciplines, it's accountability and it's the ability to encourage and hold one another up. Because as you may have mentioned, uh, fasting is just one of many in here. We're talking about prayer, we're talking about scripture reading, we're talking about confession. And the reality is God does create us to live in community with one another, but also not to cast pearls before swine is another another piece to that. And so I do think that what this drives us to is, you know, when you go into a fast and you are battling for it, it's okay for there to be people that you talk to and say, Hey, can you pray for me? Can you encourage me in this? Because, you know, I feel pretty isolated when I'm when I'm the only one who that I know that's not eating at this time. And so I think that there is a very real, and it's a it's a way you can it does also help make that relationship more rich because you're talking about your need with other people, with other trusted people. Um and so another question that came up for me during the message um is that biblically, usually when you see a fast declared in scripture, it's connected to mourning. Uh M-O-U-R-N, I-G, so grieving. That you know, usually it's like some someone has died, um, there's something terrible happening to our country. You think about uh Nineveh when uh after Jonah said you guys are all about to get cooked, and they said, Well, we're gonna put on poor clothes and we're going to all fast, and you're and you're also gonna make your animals fast. Imagine that, keeping your dog away from food or a horse or whatever. Um, you know, and so generally in scripture, I don't I I I can't think of a time when it was something that was a good thing that was happening that fasting was happening. And so you have that on one side, on the other side, we're called to be people of joy. So then how is it that this action of mourning should interact with it with the joy in a Christian's life? If we're supposed to be joyful in all sorts and give thanks in all circumstances, then how does fasting come into that?
SPEAKER_02Like well, because fasting is meant to lead you to joy. I would I would word it that way, because fasting it's difficult. Like that, like I think it's it'd be disingenuous to just say uh the Spirit of God is gonna make it to where you're not even gonna feel any physical hunger. You'll feel some physical hunger, or to your point, if you give up social media, you'll feel some withdrawal. You know, those things are gonna happen. But all that being said, it's the fact that you trust and you know that it's gonna lead you to joy, uh, because ultimately the joy is found in the Lord. And that's the one who you're who you're seeking, where you know, Nehemiah talks about that that the joy of the Lord is our strength. And so as you lean into God, you experience that joy. I really do believe that, and that sustains you because the point of it is ultimately to draw you closer to him. And and the way we draw ourselves closer to him is by denying the things that are creating distance and feeding the things that are creating intimacy and our spiritual walk. And the two old words were mortification and vivification. So when you are fasting, you are mortifying your flesh. You are basically killing that carnal desire for that season of time. But mortification should be complemented by vivification of the things that you are also feeding your soul at the same time. So you're not just starving yourself, you are feeding yourself the goodness of God in intentional ways, and that will lead to joy as you experience Him, would be what I would argue.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think something that bears mentioning here and in and specifically to the idea of mourning is in the Americ in our American culture, the idea of mourning itself is not a discipline that people are taught, right? I mean, I think I I think about if you go to a um a funeral in an in another culture, a lot of times you will have people who are just actively um you know, that's what they do, they're professional mourners, they do, they do stuff like that. Um and so why why this comes up to me is that you know, sometimes I don't think we know how to deal with the negative things. That I mean I think about ecclesiastes, and it's a time a time to to dance and a time to mourn, a time to to celebrate and a time to wail, you know. All there's a time for everything under heaven. Um but we have so leaned into the be happy, be joyful all the time. And part of where I'm coming from on this is that uh uh when when when I was in youth ministry, a big question came up of what to do with people what what what is going on with folks who are either self-mutilating or cutting. Because a lot of times people will say, Oh, well they're suicidal. And it's like, no, they're not suicidal. Um the reality is when you really dig into it, you have and and the reason why this comes up to me is you've you said this multiple times, that idea of numbing pain, that instead of dealing with pain in healthy ways of of expressing it through mourning or fasting, uh instead they're they go for other ways so they can feel something, right? That if our if our goal is to only be happy or joyful all the time and it is an evil to feel or in in interact with pain, that numbness i is what people that I've found that that deal with these kind of things that that's how they have to fight it. And and I I guess why why I'm saying why I'm going into this is that I I think people can r are seem to be more ready to celebrate things, at least in our context, than they are to mourn things. But both are equally important in in our life. And so I mean, do you have any response on that or any any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's a cultural thing to your point. Um you're not gonna get many followers through your mourning, and you're not gonna get much applause through your grief over something broken in your life. Um you know, and we always want to present ourselves uh in such a positive way, and largely I think this has to do just with the in our context in the modern times, you always are presenting yourself. That's the other side, too, is like you think about ancient cultures, they had their communities, they had the people they were around. We are around thousands of people all the time through, once again, LinkedIn, Instagram, all the stuff. Like we are always presenting some aspect of ourself to tons of people. Um, even if you're not a quote social media star, you're always acting and presenting yourself. And so we're just, I think we're just too scared to be vulnerable of the things that we feel. And to your point, mourning and grief, there is a time for that and a season for that. And and it's a rightful response when we when we have made poor decisions in our lives um that have led to egregious consequences for us and others, there should be lamenting, there should be mourning. There's a whole book called Lamentations in your Bible exactly about that point of bad decisions led to bad consequences, and it's a book full of grief. And so um I think we just have to remind ourselves of that. That once again, we're not we're in this world, we're not of this world, and it's okay it's okay to be honest in that sense. And if fasting happens to be one of those disciplines that helps guide you through that morning to bring you to joy, praise God. If that's the right avenue, maybe it is, maybe it's not. You should talk to somebody about that.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think you hit the nail on the head in the context of the sermon too, talking about specifically these public fasts, that it is a response of feeling sad about the fact that your n that your community, your nation, whatever has turned on the Lord. Right. Um, you know, that that idea of when was the last time you actually prayed or uh cried over your own sin, right? Because that's what a lot of the lamentation is, is man, I I really screwed up. And I, you know, we I deal with this with with my kids to an extent sometimes, whenever they misbehave or they do something they know they know is wrong, and then it's like, I'm sorry. It's like, you're not sorry. But then there are the times when they get caught doing something and they really do feel real remorse for it. And it it I think it's important you can't as a parent rush them to, it's all okay, sweetie, don't worry about it. It's like sometimes it is a hey, here's a clarification. These are the consequences of what has happened because of because of what you've done, and we're gonna mourn that, right, and then we're gonna move on from it. And um I think so much of our culture and so much, so many of our lives of those who'd be listening have been defined by ignoring those things that are bad and skipping straight to it'll be okay. You know, fasting tells us sometimes it's not okay. Right. And some and maybe though maybe in those moments we should be turning to God, recognizing that our not okayness is only something that He can address. And so anyway, that that's something that kind of stuck out to me in the context of even this whole conversation that you know there is space in the Christian rhythm of life for mourning, and uh to the extent that it should be somewhat regular.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I I do I I just doubt that that's really something that people regularly interact with.
SPEAKER_02Paul, it made me think of Paul when when you were talking about all this, he brought up this topic in his in his second letter uh to the Church of Corinth, in chapter seven, he starts talking about actually grief and sorrow, you you might remember, and he talks about he differentiates what he calls godly grief from worldly grief.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's that idea once again of response to sin, and he's writing to the church because they're grieving, they're mourning, because he basically wrote letters saying, knock it off in five thousand different ways of where you've gone wrong and you're messed up and church, you're out of control. But then he says this about his own word that he sent to him. This is uh second second Corinthians 7 9. He says, As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting, for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. And so that that's really his point is that it stings, it hurts, but I rejoice. And his joy is not in his mourning, his joy is in uh is ultimately in the joy that he knows is before him, that ultimately joy is now around the corner because they've honored, they've they've recognized their grief, they've recognized what's wrong, and God can work through that. So it's just a process, um, but trusting that that joy is on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, one thing that I that I wanted to address before we uh sign off from this series, and also to sign off our series on a positive note, because it's pretty heavy stuff. Um, you and I talked about at uh at one point when we were talking about the spiritual pathways, that particular uh discipline of celebration. And so I do think that this would be a good spot to address that shortly of is there a spiritual discipline of celebration? And what it can we in a short term identify what that looks like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that that's super helpful. And I don't I wish we had more time to do a whole sermon. It was one of the ones that I guess got cut out of the list because it was a short, concerted sermon series. Celebration, I think, is really important. It's also something we don't do. It's also biblically mandated that we're called to rejoice and celebrate what God has done. In the Old Testament, it got regulated in part through, like you mentioned, with feasts and things that were put together of certain acts and rituals that they would set aside time and places where they would simply celebrate what God has done. Um in the New Testament, when we look at the church, we kind of lose some of that ritual and tradition. We are told, uh, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. And there's and there's reason to celebrate and ways to give Him glory, but we don't necessarily have those feast rhythms and the things placed in front of us. Um where in the Old Testament, they'd build monuments, they'd have feasts, they'd have reminded in their backyard. Yeah. They build they'd plant a tree. They'd do things to help them remember God did this, let's celebrate that. Um, and and it would keep them moving forward, walking in faith. So I think in the in as New Covenant believers, we just have to set intentional ways and times to celebrate. Rhythms, right? Which yes, which oftentimes I think comes there's different ways you can establish that. I think annually it's important for you to do that. Some of that can just come through the calendar as you approach through the holiday season. That's a natural, timely moment. But also in your own time, I mean, if you're a goal setting person, it's good when you are creating goals and visions for next year to pause amidst that and celebrate what God has done before you start moving on to the next things that you hope he'll do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I would actually argue that, you know, because the idea was that the holidays were going to be that, these whole these holy feasts and all that. But the problem is because they got so culturally ingrained. They got hijacked by secular culture, then you know, it got lost. And so uh I would actually argue find a time in the calendar that is a less celebrated time so that then you won't be dealing with the uh expectations of everything around you to do or or be at certain places, and then you can dip you can in an orderly way celebrate what God's done in your life.
SPEAKER_02Because the precursor to celebration really is reflection. Absolutely. Um and so you have to have time to reflect, which then how do you reflect? Then this gets into more disciplines, silence and solitude. That's usually a key part of your reflection, uh, praying, fasting, all these things go together. So you have to create space, one, to reflect so you can even recognize the goodness of God in your life. Because if you just go so fast through life and you just move on from one mission to the next, you'll miss it all. And then you'll wonder where was God, and you'll get resentful the first time something goes wrong, and you'll you'll miss the 500 million ways that God has been so good to you all year long. And so I think creating those rhythms, um, some of it can just come through journaling week to week, day to day, writing down some of those blessings. But to your point, Matt, I think creating finding the soft spot in whatever your schedule is to just do that. Yeah, um, do that in an intentional way. And I think that will help you with all these other things too, if we just if we pause and we celebrate. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, we've covered everything there is to cover. And then and also, friends, this does uh constitute this will be the last of our spring semester episodes of the Citizen ATX podcast. Um so, Jonathan, any as we're wrapping up the series, any last thoughts or um or questions or or things that are on your mind?
SPEAKER_02Uh my only final thought I'll just say I know we covered seven different pathways. Just take a step on one of those paths. Don't let it become a legalistic list that now I got to do seven different things all the time. Just pick one. Pick one and do it. Do one thing. Take one step at a time and just see what God does from there.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, thank you, friends, for joining us on this series. We we do genuinely hope that as you have this time of reflection, this opportunity to look back on your life and the practices that you do, even as we enter into the summer season, our prayer for you is that you would find life-giving practices through these different pathways and that you would allow God as your savior and your redeemer to help you fight those soul killers that would diminish and demean you. And so, friends, thank you so much. We hope that you will uh uh connect with your local church family here in these coming weeks and that you would worship together, be challenged, be grown together. And our hope is that you would live lives that are rich and that point toward the kingdom of God. And so, on behalf of Jonathan Spencer and myself, we are glad you've joined us, and we will see you next time on the Citizen ATX podcast.