Your Kid’s Bookshelf Needs a Makeover: On Diversity, Belonging, & Empathy | Amber O'Neal Johnston

A single comment from a curious child—“We only study white people”—sent Amber O’Neal Johnston on a mission to rebuild her family’s learning around story, dignity, and depth. On this episode of The Brainy Moms Podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy sit down with Amber to unpack how a balanced bookshelf can change the culture of a home and the character of a child. Using Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop’s mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors analogy, Amber shows how to choose books that reflect kids’ lived experiences, open honest views into other worlds, and inspire real-life empathy that carries beyond the page.

We talk about practical ways to curate without censoring. Amber’s rule is brave conversation over banned books: preview when you can, invite your kids to bring you the sticky parts, and ask sharp questions about author intent, historical context, and your own family values. You’ll hear how this approach trains discernment for the teen years, when kids meet complex ideas without you in the room. We also dig into why diverse stories matter for every family, especially in communities that still feel segregated. Familiarity breeds friendship, and literature can be the first friendly bridge.

Then we pivot to pace. Amber guards margin so her kids can be bored, curious, and creative—because that’s where the magic lives. She makes a compelling case for a slow childhood and wide learning: linger in topics, pair fiction with primary sources, visit local history, cook the food, and let questions lead. Instead of climbing faster, go broader and deeper, and watch confidence and empathy grow together. Her final nudge is freeing: you are the special sauce. Lead with what you love—tech, nature, handicrafts, or culture—and let that authentic passion shape your homeschool DNA.

If you’re ready to raise thoughtful, joyful readers and make your home a place of belonging, press play. If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more conversations like this, and leave a review to help others find the show.

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The Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore and Sandy Zamalis. Dr. Amy and Sandy have conversations with experts in parenting, child development, education, homeschooling, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and advice for helping parents and kids thrive. If you love us, add us to your playlist and follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

Welcome & Newsletter Invite

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, Smart Moms and Dads. We are so glad that you've joined us for another episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast brought to you today by Learning RX Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore here with my co-host, Sandy Zimalis. And before we get started with our guest, I just want to remind everybody that we have a monthly newsletter. And so if you want more from us, go to theBraandymoms.com, sign up for our monthly newsletter. It's completely free and it's full of resources related to our topics that we cover on the show. We dive a little bit deeper with resources related to the topics that our guests talk about. Um, and so we always just have fun-free stuff for you guys. So brandymoms.com, sign up for that. And now our conversation today is with Amber O'Neill Johnston. Let me tell you a little bit about her in case you don't know her yet. Amber is an established authority on including diverse voices in traditional curriculum and infusing culture and love for others into an intentional home environment. She's the author of the book A Place to Belong, celebrating diversity and kinship in the home and beyond. And she also wrote the book called Soul School, taking kids on a joy-filled journey through the heart of Black American culture. And she just recently edited and released an anthology called Homegrown Guidance and Inspiration for Navigating Your Homeschool Journey. I love the title of the book, Homegrown. So Amber's here today to talk with us about the importance of infusing culture in education. Welcome, Amber.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 1:37

Thank you so much for having me.

Sandy Zamalis 1:40

Amber, we're so glad you're here. To get started, why don't we jump in with our listeners and share a little bit about your homeschooling journey? I loved in your book, Homegrown, where you kind of talked about it. It wasn't really your idea at first.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 1:56

No, definitely. I am the child of two public school principals. And my husband and I both graduated from public schools. And we had planned, you know, to put our children in school, maybe private school, I'm not sure, but definitely homeschooling was not on the radar. And um, when our oldest was four, and you know, think we were starting, we're starting to think about kindergarten and all of that. My husband let me know that he wanted the children to be homeschooled. And I started laughing because um he's a big jokester, and that was so such a ridiculous thing for him to say. Um, I thought he was making a joke, and he later let me know, I'm actually really serious. And I was like, oh, okay, well, that's not gonna work. And you know, I was giving him all the reasons why, like, that's not me, that's not what we're doing, that's weird, we're not weird, um, all of these other things. And um eventually, you know, we went back and forth. It's kind of hard to compromise. Sometimes it seems like there's some things, there just is no compromise, either you do or you don't. But he came up with one, and that was he asked me to give it my all for one year. And if I didn't like it and didn't think it was right for our family, that he would never ask me again. And so I took him up on that. I thought that was like a really wise approach. And by the end of that year, I had fallen head over heels in love with the homeschooling, and um didn't, you know, I never looked back. So our children are um we have two teenagers, 16 and 14, and we have a 12 and 10-year-old, and all four have been homeschooled from the beginning.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:35

I love that, and I love that he was willing to go from hey, this is what I want to this is what I want you to try.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 3:45

Yeah. It was definitely, it was so smart because it gave me uh, you know, a way to say yes without committing myself to something long-term that I didn't think I would enjoy at all.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:58

So, as this um well-known expert in uh the cultural aspect of education, how did that become something that you were passionate about? What did you notice? What what made you say, hey, there's a gap here?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 4:18

Um, I think for me, it was not something that was on my radar at all. Um, but my oldest daughter, um, through a series of conversations and situations, she started becoming a lot more aware of um the fact that she was different, you know, and she'd say, Mommy, we look different than other people. Why do they have hair like this and we have hair like this? Why, you know, she's just asking a lot of questions. Why is our skin brown? Um, and we were talking about all those things. And um, you know, it came to a head eventually at one point where she told me that, you know, black people never did anything or they don't really know anything. And I asked her why she felt that way. And she said, Because you said that we study important people in school and we only study white people. Um, and so that was, I felt like a huge moment for somebody so little to say that and to have that realization. And of course, that was never my intention, but we were using the books that I saw everybody else using, and they were really good. Like that's the thing. It wasn't like these weren't good stories, they were great stories. Um, and so I realized that sometimes omission can speak just as loudly as something that you may say aloud. Um, and so I had to take a moment and think about what messages I was sending my own child through our um educational choices and the things that she was learning about. And that's what started the process for me. And I've been learning alongside my children. Um, my biggest issue is how could I teach them things that I don't know myself? And so we've kind of gone through this journey together.

Dr. Amy Moore 6:00

So I wonder, um as you began curating resources for this journey, did you think that the books and the textbooks and and the curricula that was out there was it skewed um towards white culture historically all along? Was it scrubbed, right, where it downplayed anything negative about white culture, and how if there aren't resources that would tell you how it actually happened, how do you learn how it actually happened?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 6:48

Yeah, I would say I found some of everything. You know, there were things that were overtly negative towards people of color, you know, they were mostly older books, which in in my you know, kind of area of homeschooling, we we love classic books. We read a lot of older books, and a lot of them just naturally have insensitive language. So there was what was being said, but there was also an absence of people of color. It was almost like these stories are existing in a time and place where nobody else was there, or it was a situation where if they were there, they were enslaved or fighting for the basic human rights. So there was no place to smile or to have a family or to love your grandmother or to be fully humanized. And so um, those were the stories that I started looking for. And, you know, they I I follow this um this account called the historic uh homeschool historian, and she talks a lot about the difference between um facts or um things that actually took place and history, which is an interpretation of those things that took place. And so I started looking for facts. There's certain things that just happened. Either it happened or it didn't happen, it just happened, and we started there, but also I started looking for different um historical representations or different historians who are bringing their perspective. And I tried really hard not to just pick one, even if the one that I saw was making me very comfortable. But just the thought of, okay, well, this is where they see this. How does someone else see this? And um, doing all of this kind of on a child's level wasn't easy, right? So we were looking at, you know, some original documents as well and seeing what do those, you know, how do those speak to us. And we visited a lot of historic sites and, you know, we were reading books. But for me, it wasn't my goal in the beginning, wasn't so much to let my kids know the absolute hardcore truth about every single thing, as much as it was to say that there are a lot of people, and uh we're some of those people, and we all have stories, and our stories overlap, you know. My children are also American. So American stories are our our stories, and we're black, and black stories are our stories, and you know, they're southern. I always say I'm not, I'm not from here, but they're southern, you know, the South that tells stories, tells its own stories, and those are part of my children's stories. So we talked about how stories overlap, but um, I really was looking for feelings and and um like kind of that inside feeling of valuing themselves and valuing other people over the actual facts in the beginning is what was most important to me.

Modern Literature Beyond Identity Boxes

Sandy Zamalis 9:42

It sounds like you wanted to really incorporate a lot of perspective too. Um, that way you were trying to see history through lots of lenses.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 9:52

Yeah, I think that that's still very important to me. And to look outside of just our own context as well. You know, I think it was difficult for me to tell my children, you know, okay, let's start with slavery, let's jump into it. It's like, no, that that wasn't where I wanted to start. So we went back and we were talking about Africa and the kingdoms and kings and queens and all of the things that happened and the families there. And, you know, we we we started there, we talked about modern day African countries and the children who live there today. And we kind of brought it forward to the US and we talked about, you know, hard things that did happen, but at the same time, these are actually people, right? So they weren't just this or just that, but they're people who loved others and and had hard times and and good times as well. Um, so yeah, I think storytelling became vitally important in our home and it's remained so.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:54

So then what does that look like in modern day uh reading and literature?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 11:00

So for us, um, you know, I'm looking for some of the most valuable books um that I I really enjoy bringing to my children are books where um there are different types of people, but the book isn't only about that. So there might be books that have black people in them, but the book isn't just about I'm black today. See how black I am today? I'm I'm doing black things, you know. It's just it's just a book. It's just a story about a person and they're doing their thing. It's a coming of age, it's a mystery, it's a fantasy book or whatever it may be. Um, and not just, you know, I use black people a lot as an example because it's so comfortable for me, but I really mean that about everybody. You know, I just want the children to read about different types of people, and I don't want them to overthink that. I don't want them to be like, now I must read a book about a Hispanic person. I just want them to be curious and to enjoy stories and to enjoy learning about all types of people. And I teach them, you know, to see uh aspects like I mean, I love Jane Austen, and I could make a whole argument of how I see myself in pride and prejudice. And most people would be like, What in the world? How can you see yourself in that book? And so I I don't I'm not teaching my children to separate everything into race or ethnicity, but rather to see what the connections you can make in someone's story, whether it's fiction or nonfiction.

Dr. Amy Moore 12:29

So what I'm hearing you say is that it is important for kids to be able to see characteristics of characters that reflect something in themselves. Um, but those characteristics don't have to be related all the time to skin color in order to have that benefit.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 12:50

Absolutely. So sometimes, you know, like one of my daughters is more introverted. So if she's reading a story about an introverted, you know, woman, she connects with that. She understands what that feels like, that you're not in a bad mood or you're not standoffish, but that you're just kind of quiet. Um, or, you know, when my boys hear about someone in a story who's homeschooled, they start jumping up and down screaming and running around the house, Mama, mom, they're homeschooled, they're homeschooled. And, you know, it's just, it's just a a shot of joy to say, you know, to see something familiar about your life in in story form. Um, I think is important. But yes, of course, you also want to hear about people who are are like you, who look like you, who maybe come from the same places as you or who have had similar experiences culturally too.

Sandy Zamalis 13:43

You make a point that there are no books off-limit in your home. Um, that banned books is as not a thing in your homeschool culture that you're creating. Expand on that for us a little bit in terms of like how do you approach that with your kids, especially if it has been a banned book in the past. Mm-hmm.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 14:06

The reason why I said, you know, I don't have to worry about banning books or taking books off the table, it's because we talk about everything. So there are quite a few books that I wouldn't want my kids to read by themselves or just go off and read and not have any discussion with me about it. If that were the case, then I would have a long list of books that I wouldn't want them to touch. But for us, we are just talking about all of these things. What is it that makes us uncomfortable about this book? What is it that, you know, if this book was written today, would they still say that? What do we think the author was trying to say? How, you know, how does that make us feel? Are we using our 21st century mind to judge a book that was written in another century? Is that right? Is that wrong? Um, is that racist what they said? Or, you know, or how do we feel about that? Was it necessary for that character, you know, to be realistic about what was happening in the story? I mean, all of these types of things that we can talk about, um, and obviously in an age-appropriate way. So for me, it isn't so much you can't read this book. I may say you're not ready for this book yet. Um, but I think everything is available to us, you know, when we're able to talk about it.

Dr. Amy Moore 15:25

Yeah, I like that approach um because I think it's important to be open to all possibilities when you're having a conversation, right? To be able to say um what is that person's perspective or what was the motivation behind um that narrative. Um, because when we can explore another perspective, then it helps us to understand ours a little bit better too, right? Like to be able to say, okay, I kind of see where they were coming from, but I don't agree, and here's why.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 16:01

Yeah. And I've said that many times about a book, you know. I'm just like, I don't like what this author has to say. I disagree. I don't think that this is right, you know. But and then I and to be fair, I also have teens. So what I'm where I'm headed with them is very different than perhaps when I, you know, they were all little. Um, because I'm I'm recognizing that they're interacting with the world apart from me. They're becoming their own people, and I want them to be thinking people.

Sandy Zamalis 16:32

Amber, I love that idea of trying to keep it as a family discussion, um, that you know, especially with reading. How do you manage, you know, what if you have a voracious reader on your hand and you can't keep up with the amount of material that they're pulling in from the library, for example. And do you guys have an open discussion about books? Um, do you check in with those books? I know as a parent, sometimes it was hard to keep up with what they were reading so that we could have those kinds of meaty discussions.

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Amber O'Neal Johnston 17:08

Oh my goodness, this is this is like a whole thing for me. But yes, multiple voracious readers who like to read different types of things. Um, so I do a couple things. One, we have a robust home library that I've really vetted and researched and read reviews and gotten recommendations from people that I trust. And for the most part, if it's in our house, you're free to go for it. Um, so that leaves them a lot of latitude within what I've already. So it's kind of like a checkpoint is what even comes into the house in terms of what they're pulling from the library or like the Libby app or something like that. Um, I will do reviews, I mean, read reviews and things like that, or authors that we're familiar with. But I realized very early on, I can't catch everything. I'm not gonna be able to clear the road and pathway of anything that my family may ever find um, you know, less than what I would want them to be reading. And so we work at it from another direction, which is come talk to me, you know. And and, you know, sometimes we laugh about it. My 14-year-old daughter, I bought her a book once and it had great reviews and and all the things the reviews said were true. It just left some stuff out, namely that every other word is the F bomb. Um, so she like came and brought me the book and she was like, Mom, there's so much cursing in this book. Like she's like, I know like a word here or there. She's like, the whole book is just like an ongoing curse word. And so I was flipping through it and I was like, oh, they didn't, I they didn't put that part in the review, you know? And we laughed about it. And she told, of course, a million people, my mom bought me this cussing book. Um, and sometimes it happens, you know, I missed the mark. I'm sorry. Uh, but I for me, it's more important that the children are willing to come and tell me what it is that they're reading. And for for them, I want to see like, do you want to keep reading this? Whatever it is that you kind of that made you feel like, let's go talk to my mom about it. Do you want to keep reading it? Why or why not? Or do you want to put it down? Why or why not? And we can talk about that. Um, sometimes I have a really strong opinion, like, I really don't want you to finish reading this, but I'd like for them to come to that conclusion and based on our family values, why you may want to stop reading something versus me just telling you you have to stop. Um, because then it feels a bit punitive that you came to talk to me like I asked you to, and I took it away if you were wanting to continue. Um, so there's no, you know, hard rule for it, but it gets sticky. It happens a lot, actually. I've had to grow, right? I've had to grow as a mother and to realize that I I'm not always going to be in control of every single thing that enters into my children's purview.

Dr. Amy Moore 19:55

And I think you have done a beautiful job explaining um how when you have created this environment of discussion, when you've taught your kids how to think critically about what they're reading, then that's applicable to any book that they read, right? It's applicable in life in general. And so that that's the goal of our parenting, right? Is to disciple our kids, to teach our kids. And so um, we shouldn't have to police every word in every book if we have laid the foundation that you're describing.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 20:34

Yeah, and I think that's where it's very important because those years, those early years where you're um teaching them, it pays out for you later when those same kids are growing up and they're comfortable coming to you and being like, hey, get listen to this. What do you think about this paragraph? Or like, wow, there's some stuff in here I didn't, I don't think, I'm not sure you knew about, but like, you know, or maybe we'll read some of it out loud. Or um, I remember, you know, my daughters wanting to read this like popular romance book, and they were talking about it amongst themselves, and I was overlist, I was overhearing them or listening to what they were saying. And I was like, I think I want to read this book too, you know. And so I started reading it alongside them. And, you know, it was it was actually a really good book. I could see why they liked it, but I had to join in the conversation, you know, roll my sleeves up and let me jump in here and see what's going on. Um, and I got to see a lot about what they're reading on what they're interested in these days and all of that. So, you know, it's we just take it as we go, but I do think that that groundwork of having an open discussion as the general default for your family, it will allow you the latitude to be able to read widely.

Mirrors, Windows, Sliding Glass Doors

Sandy Zamalis 21:52

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Dr. Amy Moore 23:12

So I want to talk about this idea that you have that books can be mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors. I think that those are kind of classifications that are easy to remember. So can you talk a little bit about that and how you define those and why you chose that uh concept?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 23:34

Yeah, so after my daughter kind of made me aware that our school was a little bit out of whack there with our books and what we were reading, I started researching like what's going on and how can I change this? How can I fix it? And I came across the work of Dr. Rubin Rudine Sims Bishop. She's a retired professor at Ohio State, and she had written a paper about this. And so the idea that books are mirrors, meaning that children can read books, or anyone, not just children, but any of us can read a book and connect to some aspect of that book where we see ourselves in one or more of the characters. We recognize something. It feels like home. It feels familiar. It could feel intimate to us. Um, and yes, for my daughter at that time in my family, that needed to be books with black characters in it because that was the issue she was having. But since then, that's expanded into everything. For some children, they need to read about adoptive families. They need to read about families whose grandma lives and, you know, lives with them, or families in an apartment in a big city, or whatever it may be. And we also need books as windows. And those are books where we're we're really learning about how someone else sees the world. We're looking out the window and we're watching how they operate and what their experiences are like. And these are things that are different than how we may grow up or how we live. And finally, the sliding glass door, it's really a very magnified window. It's so this window is such a good book. This book is such a good window that the child not only is learning by watching, but they actually see themselves in that story. And so, my favorite example for the sliding glass door, I was reading an interview, and a teacher said that her children in her class had just read Wonder, the book Wonder. And in that book, um, Augie has a he has a physical difference in his facial, a facial difference that makes him different, look different than all the other students. And um, so she said her student came and said, Yeah, I was in Walmart with my mom and I saw this boy in a wheelchair. And before, you know, I would have just looked the other way and looked away from him and kept walking because my mom told me, don't stare at people. But then I thought, well, Augie wouldn't want me to look away. So I just went up to him and I was like, hey, man. And he's like, hey, what's up? Not much. All right, cool. And then I kept walking. And he came and told his teacher, he's like, so I just went up to him and said, Hey, what's up? Just because that's what I thought Augie would want. And he just wants to be normal. He doesn't want you to look away. And so, you know, when the teachers relating that, I'm like, that's the sliding glass door. Because this child not only read the book Wonder, but he thought to himself, the next time I see someone who looks different or with a physical difference, I'm not gonna shy away. I'm just gonna walk up to him and act like he's everybody else I hang out with. Um, and so I think that that's kind of the miracle of literature in that way.

Sandy Zamalis 26:28

It really gives empathy, right? You you get exposure to so many different kinds of perspectives that it helps to build that um sense of empathy and to be able to kind of live vicariously in someone else's shoes, even if it's just in a story, so that you can process how you would do it differently or or what you would do the same, or um just seeing someone else with new eyes is a way to grow internally. Yeah, for sure.

Why Diverse Books Matter For All Families

Amber O'Neal Johnston 26:58

And I think that's I mean, uh, if you think about it, it's a it's a huge gift to us to have something that's readily available, at least in our nation, readily available for free, you know, if you want it to be, are these stories and these books that can introduce us to people and ideas that we would not otherwise be exposed to.

Dr. Amy Moore 27:20

So what do you consider your mission? Like, what are you most passionate about here? And so what do you think that you want the world to know about this?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 27:33

Um, I'm most passionate about sharing this idea that our bookshelves, I mean, all books just are mirrors or windows, right? Like I know one day somebody told me, she's like, I disagree with it. I'm like, there's nothing to disagree with. It either is or it isn't. You're showing you something about someone else, or it's showing you something about it's revealing something about yourself. That's what it is. Um and so I just want to bring awareness to people to balance your shelves for your kids, you know, your literal shelves or just your book list, because um, I operate, and my family operates in a community in which, you know, our stories aren't usually told. And if they are, they're very, very limited. And I don't want that for any child. I don't want it for my own kids, but I don't want it for yours either. Um, and so whether your shelf is a little light on mirrors or whether it's light on windows, or, you know, we're we'll we're each in our own place in this journey. Um, I just I guess want to bring an awareness for people to pay attention to that and not to overlook the value and importance of hearing stories for our kids and also for ourselves. Um, so and of course, I have a particular mission of sharing um black American stories with people that are, especially those that are filled with joy that maybe others hadn't heard of or aren't as popular or talked about as often.

Dr. Amy Moore 29:01

So this I I'm not sure how to word this, so just kind of stick with me here. Um when we talk about the importance of seeing ourselves in stories or in characters, um, and from your your personal home, from your personal mission, you know, oh initially you guys were looking for big black stories that that your kids could resonate with. So how would you encourage white families who are not diversifying their bookshelf? What would you say to those homeschooling moms about why it's important um for them to also read stories about black families or stories about Hispanic families? And what what will what will be better um for their kids by doing that?

Guarding Margin And Slow Childhood

Amber O'Neal Johnston 30:02

Well, I think one is relationships, right? And so the that that's the most important thing. For me, at the end of the day, I'm looking for all of our children collectively to have an easier time coming together and having genuine um relationships with each other. And um part of that it needs, we need familiarity. And so for some of us, our geographic contexts give us that familiarity. But for a vast majority of us, you know, a lot of parts of our nation are still very segregated. Our neighborhoods, even within diverse towns, are still segregated. And and um, we're not, you know, we can't fix the whole world all at once, but we can expose you to these ideas through a story. So um I often tell people too, like a lot of times my white friends have been hesitant to really bring up diverse stories or share these things with their kids because they're like, well, there's they're not thinking about that. My kids just see everyone all the same. And I would argue, no, they don't. And the reason I know that is because they're asking my kids questions. The things that you're not talking about at home, they're like, why is your hair curly? Does your skin, does the brown rub off? How does it feel like to be, you know, from Africa? They're not being mean. They're asking all these curious questions because no one's talking to them about these things because they're saying, oh, they're not thinking about it. They're working out their curiosities with other children and putting them in those positions to have to do that teaching that their parents should be doing. So I work under the assumption that just because a kid hasn't asked you about it does not mean they're not thinking about it. They have eyes, they can see, and they are thinking about it. Um, and so, like, let's dive in and make it joyful and normal to talk about it. Um, so I know, you know, it was probably the same for you guys when I was growing up. It was like, don't say anything about the way someone looks. So it's like the girl with the blue shirt and the red thing, you know, like I would never be like the Latina girl, you know, because my mom would be like, we don't say that, you know, and it was this this is a bad thing to notice the the obvious. And I think I've turned that over on its head in my home to say, like, obvious, the black dude right there with the sneakers on, you know, or you know, the blonde girl, the white girl over there that had the blue eyes, the pretty blue eyes down the street, you know, and we just, it's just like normal. It's not good or bad. We're not, we're not adding or taking away from it. We're just observing and expecting to see different people and to be around different people. And we're expecting for the relationships to be strong and good and healthy. Um, and so that's what I'm really ultimately after. It's not just to be smart and to know about other people, but it's to know about them so that it'll be easier for me to be in relationship with them.

Dr. Amy Moore 32:51

I really love that. Um, when I was in grad school back in the early 90s, I'm old people, I know. Um uh we had to read White Teacher by Vivian Paley. I don't know if you're familiar with the book, but it was an autobiography of a kindergarten, a white kindergarten teacher who taught in um a very diverse school. And she thought that she was doing an amazing thing by pretending not to notice differences in color and skin color, and by treating everyone the same and by talking with the students, her students, about how everyone is the same, we're all the same. And she came to this realization, you know, throughout her career that she was actually doing everyone a disservice by saying we're all the same, because then we weren't she wasn't not we, she wasn't celebrating what was different about them and honoring that. And so I think what I as I reflect back on that, I think that it's important for us to celebrate how we are all alike, right? To celebrate our humanity, um, but also to be able to speak freely and allow kids to ask questions and be honoring to our individual skin colors and backgrounds and cultures as well. So I love that you point that out in terms of relationships.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 34:30

Yeah, for sure. I think that's I think like we were made this way intentionally and um that there's no nothing to feel bad about for any of us, right? And so I think if we think about the moving forward in a way that every child feels honored and and feels good about the way that they were made, um, I think that's when we'll we'll be winning. And I talk about this a little bit in my book, A Place to Belong, but I found that with my own kids, um, the more comfortable they felt about who they were, the more open they were to reaching out and being friends with people who are different. And it's almost like uh it's counterintuitive. We sometimes we think like, well, if I make my kid feel really good about being, you know, whatever, or you know, to a white friend, then be like, oh, if I if my kid feels really good about being white, they're not gonna want to be around other people. And like, no, they're gonna feel really comfortable. Like, yo, I feel great about who I am. Let me find out about you. Um, versus I feel bad about myself, I feel guilty about myself, then they're more closed off. So um, I think that it's a win-win all the way around.

Sandy Zamalis 35:36

Let's switch gears a little bit. You talk about one of the things that you love about homeschooling is having the freedom to prioritize free time. What does that look like in your? I just love that you put that in there because that is so true. Um, you have to develop that free time to be able to have these discussions we've been talking about and to have space. So, how what does that look like in your family?

Final Advice And Where To Find Amber

Amber O'Neal Johnston 36:02

Um, it looks like me vigilantly standing guard over our margin. And I cannot rest on that job even for a second. It will get sucked up so quickly, and it's happened to us so many times with one more good thing. It's just this, it's just that, and they're all good things. Um, what I have found is that um I value creative space, I value leisure time, reading, family discussions, I value home cooked meals, that I enjoy cooking, like I enjoy sitting there and chopping that and and baking certain things. And um I I didn't want to be a homeschooler. That part is true. Scott brought that to the table, but I did always want to be a homemaker. Like I always dreamt of making a home, and I want to have time to do it. Um, and what I found is when I don't vigilantly protect that, we start having this on Tuesday nights and this on Mondays and this on Wednesdays from 10 to 2 and this on Tuesdays, and I'll say, Oh, it's only an hour, right? Nothing's only an hour because you got to put your shoes on, you got to use the bathroom, you got to fix a water bottle, have a snack, you got to get there, Atlanta traffic, you got to reverse it, they gotta put their shoes on, come back. Then they're gonna want you to bring like a pine cone and bring an empty white t-shirt for tie-dye day. And it's like, what in the world? Can I just pay? Can I pay extra to not bring anything? You know, so nothing's only an hour. Everything has time to go that goes with it. And so um, I first noticed this when we went out of the country. We're world schoolers, and every couple years we'll go spend a few months in another part of the world. And the first time we went away, I saw we had it was there was so much joy in our home, our home away from home during that time. And I was like, wow, this is what it's like to wake up and not have to be somewhere, do something, go somewhere, pack a lunch, do the and I said, when we come back to the United States, I'm reclaiming that. And I have. That was years ago. And um, yeah, it's just become one of our family values.

Dr. Amy Moore 38:08

We went through seasons of public schooling, homeschooling, online schooling, unschooling. So we've done it all, right? Um, but I was laughing because I was the mom who just said, please let me write you a check. Just let me write you a check. Like, I can't cut that out. I can't bake that, I can't make this happen. Like I'm a working mom, please let me just write you a check. And I think, I think public school teachers appreciate checks, but I always felt kind of guilty about it, right? Because here's these room moms who are, you know, cutting everything out and copying everything and baking everything. And I'm like, here's my check. That's why I laugh.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 38:46

Well, it's okay because I'm the stay-at-home mom and I'm also like, uh-uh, girl, I'm not going to do all that. You know, like it's just like I think easy is the way, and you know, I make a joke. Uh, our homeschool group one time had this really fancy winter wonderland party. There was stuff hanging down from the ceiling. The centerpieces were top-notch, the menu was to die for. And as we sat there watching the kids run around the play and burst balloons on the floor, I looked around and realized we did all of that for ourselves. The kids don't care. They don't care. They don't even know what the centerpiece was that we stayed up all night, literally, we didn't go to bed, making these centerpieces and then hanging snowflakes from the ceiling. And they then they're like, Can we go outside and play? And I said to myself, and I'm not gonna keep doing this. I'm not gonna keep putting this much effort and time um just to like impress other adults and say that it's for kids. Um, instead, I'm gonna focus on the, you know, kid experience, if that's what we said we're doing. So maybe that's just a cop out, but I was like, this is just too much. We've gone too far, people. Um, but yeah, that downtime, it's not just because, you know, it I guess it could sound like I just don't feel like doing stuff, but what it is is that's where all the magic has occurred in my family. That's when I my kids have opened their hearts up. Um, that's when they've made really cool things, when they were bored to death. And just I'm like, well, it's 10 a.m. I don't know what to tell you. You know, you're bored. I'm sorry, make it work for you. And then by two, three o'clock, I'm seeing these amazing whatever it may be. And I know that that on the other side of boredom is discovery and breakthrough. And I want my kids to have that time to get to that point.

Sandy Zamalis 40:32

You talked about the gift of giving your kids a slow childhood. Um talk about that a little bit more.

Amber O'Neal Johnston 40:41

Well, you know, that's not how we started. My husband and I, you know, both have MBAs and we're like, you know, harder, faster, stronger. Like we come from smart stock. We're gonna have smart kids, you're gonna, you know, get straight A's and get full ride scholarships. And, you know, that's kind of the background we entered into this with, even with homeschooling in the very beginning. It's like, let's part of the reason my husband went to homeschool is like because our oldest is so smart. Little did I know everybody says that about their kids. Um, and uh, you know, she can move faster, accelerate beyond what the school, you know, would be able to do with her. And we start down that path, but I'm a big researcher too. And I started reading books from all these different childhood experts who, by the way, disagree with each other later about older education methods, but they all agreed that in the early years, slow is the way to go, linger, play, free time, outside, nature play. And I was like, so even these people who all disagree later what older students should be doing, they all say the same exact thing. I'm gonna listen and I'm gonna take heed to this idea that slow is the way to go. And and we did that. Um, and you know, we slowed everything way down. And that didn't slow down their learning. It just meant that we were moving, um, we were doing a lot of more expansive learning and not just moving to the next higher thing, higher, higher, higher, but like going wider and really exploring more deeply and giving the kids time to meander and valuing things other than just the books. And obviously, I love books, but you know, there's so much more to learning than just books. So yeah, I am a convert from type A high achieving to the thought that really achieving wholeness of life is is the real winning thing there.

Sandy Zamalis 42:39

Yeah, and sounds like balance, right? Being able to balance it well.

Dr. Amy Moore 42:45

Yeah, and that has been a theme through several of our conversations in the last couple of months, that going wide recommendation um and just being able to sit in that space and and discover so much more about this this uh a topic um than just getting through it. And so I love that you uh continue to revisit a topic that we've enjoyed hearing multiple times as we've talked about homeschooling advice. So speaking of homeschooling advice, what would you like to leave our listeners with that you haven't gotten to talk about today?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 43:22

Um, I would just say that, you know, I my thing has been books and the mirrors and windows and someone else's thing might be entering really hardcore into technology, or someone might be a phenomenal with handicrafts or nature or whatever it may be. Um I think having something that's important to you and sharing your passions, your ideas with your family matters more than the actual topic itself. Um, and just, you know, I I like to say that you are the special sauce for your homeschool. So you don't have to try to like, oh, that's that's really good. It's awkward for me. I don't understand. It or I don't feel passionate about it, but I'll do what this person's doing because it will never work. Um, but what is it that you want to sprinkle all over your family and to leave, you know, as your legacy with your children? And I think that whether you homeschool or not, whether you work or not, um, those are things that only you can do. It's like your fingerprint on your family. So just um don't underestimate yourself as your most valuable homeschooling tool.

Dr. Amy Moore 44:28

Great advice. Where can our listeners find more from you?

Amber O'Neal Johnston 44:34

You can find me at heritagemom.com. It has my books and all years and years of blog posts and articles and things in the shop. And I'm on social media at Heritage Mom blog.

Closing Remarks & Newsletter Reminder

Dr. Amy Moore 44:46

Fantastic. Amber, thank you so much for being with us today, for giving us a little bit of that free time that you were just talking about to share your wisdom and experience with our listeners. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, for sure. So, listeners, thank you for being with us. Um, remember, if you want more from us, sign up for our newsletter at theBraindymoms.com. You can find us on social media at theBrainy Moms, and you can find more from Sandy on TikTok at the Brain Trainer Lady. We love it that you choose to spend this hour with us every week. We hope that you feel a little bit smarter after being with us today. That's all we have for you. We're gonna catch you next time.