Rethinking Organization for Disorganized Kids | Dr. Rochelle Matthews Somerville

Does your home runs on constant reminders, never-ending rescuing, and last-minute scrambling for missing shoes, backpacks, and sporting equipment? Then this episode is for you! Dr. Amy and Sandy sit down with Dr. Rochelle Matthews-Somerville, a special needs education consultant, homeschool advocate, and mom of six, to make organization feel practical again for real families raising neurodivergent kids with ADHD, autism, learning differences, and big emotions.

We dig into why saying “they have no executive functioning skills” misses the point, and how supports like labels, visuals, family calendars, and simple routines help kids build planning skills and follow-through over time. Dr. Rochelle shares a powerful communication reset: stop asking for “clean” and get specific. Her zone method turns room cleanup into clear, doable steps and helps kids experience success instead of overwhelm. We also talk about why a parent’s favorite system might not fit their neurodivergent child’s brain, and how to keep testing strategies until you find the match.

Then we zoom out to the middle school handoff when parents stop being the external brain and kids suddenly carry a full load of schoolwork, chores, and activities. We cover writing everything down to expose overload, using framed choices to reduce power struggles, and teaching consequences as cause-and-effect rather than punishment. Finally, we address emotional regulation at the learning table: when frustration melts the day down, it may be time to adjust goals and rebuild skills before pushing academics.

Subscribe, share this with a homeschool parent who needs hope, and leave a review so more families can find these executive functioning and homeschool organization strategies. What’s the one daily routine you want to make easier this week?

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The Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore and Sandy Zamalis. Dr. Amy and Sandy have conversations with experts in parenting, child development, education, homeschooling, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and advice for helping parents and kids thrive. If you love us, add us to your playlist and follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

Welcome And Newsletter Invite

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, Smart Moms and Dads. We're so glad that you've joined us for this episode of the Brady Moms Podcast brought to you today by Learning RX Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore here with my co-host Sandy Zamalis. And before we introduce our guests today, we want to invite you to sign up for our monthly newsletter. Just go to the BradyMoms.com. You can sign up. It's totally free. It's full of resources related to the topics that we talk about on our show. We take a deep dive into some of them in the newsletter where we can't do it actually live. And so free stuff at brainymoms.com. All right. And now our conversation today is with the amazing Dr. Rochelle Matthew Somerville. Let me tell you a little bit about her in case you don't know her yet. Dr. Rochelle is a special needs education consultant, a homeschooling advocate, mother of six, and she is renowned for her expertise in supporting families of children with unique learning and behavioral challenges. As the president and CEO of EFM Educational Consultants and team leader of the Special Needs Educational Consultants at HSLDA, she has dedicated over 25 years to empowering individuals with disabilities to become competent lifelong learners. She has a master's degree in special ed focusing on autism and Asperger's and behavior disorders. And she also has a PhD in psychological and cultural studies, concentrating on learners with severe communication disorders. Her extensive career includes roles as a university professor, a K through 12 resource teacher, a countywide autism specialist, and educational consultant across public, private, and homeschool settings. So she is here today because we met her at the HEVE conference in Virginia last year and could not wait to have her come on the show. She's got a magnetic personality. I know you guys are just gonna enjoy this next 45 minutes with her. Welcome, Dr. Rochelle. So I have to tell you, so we were at the Heave booth. We were in our booth, and people kept coming up to the booth saying that you had sent them over to us. And so Cindy and I said, we need to go talk to her. We need to go meet her because who is the It was like four or five people that yeah, and we're like, wait, what?

Sandy Zamalis 2:26

We didn't have a workshop. Who are you talking about?

Dr. Amy Moore 2:28

Yeah, we got to go meet this doctor who keeps sending uh kids to us. And so we came over to your booth and you were not there, but your assistant was. So she had this exuberance that was magnetic and contagious. And the more she talked, the more I kept thinking, can I hire her for me? Like I want this person to come work for me. How can I steal her? Dr. Ochelle is not gonna want me to steal her, but I love I mean, we left there going, who is she? She's amazing. Anyway, so then you show up at our booth 10 minutes later. And I think the same thing about you. You guys must just have joy-filled conversations. Your culture in your workplace together just must be so full of joy when you both exude this just happiness and um magnetism. And but what it what it is is love. Like we don't know you very well, but there's just love all over you.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I truly appreciate that because that that's the that's the heart of what we do. Um, and this is why I do what I do.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

All right. Well, we're so happy you're here.

Meeting Dr Rochelle And Her Work

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. I have followed you all for so long and I so enjoy these talks. So the fact that I get to sit here and have a conversation with you all, this I get the treat. So I'm excited. I'm excited about this.

Sandy Zamalis 4:15

Welcome, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Let's kick off our discussion. So, when we met you at He last year, your talks were powerful. So much so that we had people coming to our booth and just showering you with praise. So, let's talk about how you got started in helping uh homeschooling families, especially homeschooling families with special needs kids.

How She Started Homeschool Consulting

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Absolutely. So I am an educator by trade. Um, and my the first half of my career, of course, was at the university level. Um, and as you said, I have six kids. And so um I was at the university until number five, and then um it was kind of like overflow of the cup. I had to decide one way or the other. Um, and then my oldest child was school age, and I I have a passion for learning. And so at that point, um, he had so many rich experiences. I wanted that love of learning to kind of keep going. And so that's what kind of gravitated um gravitated my husband and I to think of homeschooling. And so I started homeschooling him, and we were very outside of the box. I would um I would work during the day, and then we would homeschool at night. And so we we started uh, it was it was very non-traditional, and then I had my daughter. Um, and then you know, homeschooling was the best thing in the world. Um fast forward, then I had the twins, and then number five, and I thought, okay, wait, whoa, you know, it's getting a little much. Um, and so uh I continued to homeschool, but I brought all that expertise to um to the homeschool world. I thought, well, you know, what am I gonna do? I was I was the coordinator of the special education department. Um, and so I began to uh pour into pour the resources basically into um the homeschool world. We did classical conversations for the longest time, which we still do, uh 19 years later. And so um I began to help families figure out how to make their homeschool work, especially for those that had neurodivergent kids. Um and then from there, what I noticed was is that um there were lots of neurodivergent fam uh kids um and their families wanted to homeschool, but it was always that they didn't feel equipped or whatever. And so that's how I found my niche by supporting those families. And naturally I came to HSLDA to just kind of extend my reach. But that is basically how I have um, I'm gonna say fill my cup by not being in uh university life. I fill my cup with pouring into families, and so that's kind of how I got there. And um, God has shown me a little bit of neurodivergence in my own kids. And so I've been able to fill my cup at home too. And so my professional role of my professional training has never really stopped ever inside and outside the home.

Executive Functioning As A Trainable Skill

Dr. Amy Moore 7:12

Yeah, I always joke that uh we have a living, breathing psychology lab um in our own home, you know, because I had three neurodivergent kids and I am neurodivergent. So um I think we kind of develop um our areas of focus and expertise and passion because we live and breathe those areas, right? And so you have this talk um called Umganizing the Disorganized Practical Tools for Kids Who Can't Find Their Shoes. And I so related to that when I saw the title of that talk. Please talk a little bit about that. Why do you do a talk called that? Why did you name it that? And then let's let's hear some of those tips.

Finding Strategies That Fit Your Child

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Absolutely. So that one stems from, of course, um executive functioning. Um, and of course, executive functioning right now is is my baby. Um, I have a couple talks on that. And um, I I think that executive functioning right now is like this big monster to a lot of families. And uh recently I've had a lot of families that come to me and they'll say things like, my kid has no executive functioning skills. I I need help. And so I think there's a there is um a lot of information that needs to be passed on to families about executive functioning skills. It's not you have or you don't have. And so um, at the same time that I want to give information to families, I also want them to make light of the fact that we all have executive functioning skills. It starts very, very early, um, ending from working memory when we start working with very, very young kids and um and organizational skills. It's not something you have or you don't have. And so that one actually functions on um focuses on organizational skills. Um, but it's not, it's it's not a big dirty word. We all use supports, right? Um, we have environmental supports, we have traffic lights, we have stoplights, we all use them. Um, if I take everybody's cell phone away, how well will you get to the place where you need to be? You know, we all have supports. I would not do well without them, right? But for some reason, it's it has become um almost like we foresee it as a something bad if we need to put supports in place for kids. And I try to show families, it's not a bad thing. When you are young, um, when kids are young, what do we do? We put up a shelf and say, here's the shoe organizer, let's put our shoes there. Those are supports. Like it's not for the kids, the family needs it, right? In your silverware drawer, you put a silverware organizer. This is where the forks go, this is where the knives go, this is where the spoons go. That's just supports, right? To show everybody where things go. There are things that we can do for families to organize the whole family. And a lot of times um you think that you that there's the one child that needs these organizational supports because it looks like um dysfunction for the child. But so I work with families to help them understand. So I also I want to make light of it in one sense. So that's where the title came from, because I don't want it to be this big scary monster. And I also want the families to know um, I want to normalize the fact that disorganization is real, it's real for all of us. Um, and I I want the family to understand that you are not alone. We all lose our shoes. I mean, I'm I'm telling you, one's outside the other day. I walked in the house and one's at the front door, and I'm like, where is the other shoe? You know, I have the mat there, but I only see one shoe, guys, you know. We are all dealing with the same thing. And so I think if we can kind of normalize some of these things for families, because I think a lot of times when families are dealing with a lot, they feel like one, I'm the only one. And then when you put all of these supports in place, it's like my kid needs so much. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. The family just needs a couple uh, you know, supports and strategies in place. Put a couple visuals. How about a family calendar? You know, so you all know where you're coming and going. Um, an organizational bin here, you know, there's toys everywhere, you know. If we all have a schedule, we all have schedules that pass each other. My girlfriend just texted me this morning. She's like, Have you heard of this app? The schedule sink. And I'm like, I sure have, you know, but but just little things like that can just sink the whole family. And so I love the for families to have that aha moment. Um, it just makes my heart beat so much faster. And so that is literally my life work to have those families just kind of sink and just I'm like, ah, you know, so and I love I I love the um, I I love making the titles. You know, I spend a lot of time on the titles because I just want families to know you're not alone. And it is okay, you know, to bring the stress level down. It is your kid is just a kid, you know, and it's okay.

Sandy Zamalis 12:16

One of the things I find is that a lot of times parents they get that stress about the executive functioning issues because their children don't have uh what they deem as common sense strategies um to manage their life, right? Uh, but they miss the point of it being a trainable skill. Like we need to actually train our child to develop the skill to be organized. And, you know, I know for some families, uh, one of the things that we try to help them see too is that maybe mom or dad's organizational strategy is not what the child is gonna do best with. So we've got to come up with some other strategies that maybe will be followable by that that particular child because that kind of speaks to them and the way they see the world and how they're gonna function more efficiently. Do you do that with parents? Do you help them see like your way is not necessarily the only way?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yes. Yeah, I love that, Sandy. Um, and that's that's huge because I tell parents all the time, um, think of yourself as the clown because you are gonna have to do some magic. Like you are the magician. Um, I have a kiddo who, for the longest time, um, I am a person who likes to organize with colors. Like everything is color coded. And for the longest time, I wanted to color code. I had his notebooks color coded, I had um the room and the organizers, everything was color coded. And finally, um, when I say I invested some time and money, I mean I was we were going, going, going, and nothing seemed to work um for years. And and I said, and finally, when he was in middle school, um, and I guess he found his voice, he said to me, Mom, um, I see the colors, but colors are like the same level. It's like when I look at line paper, like you you keep telling me to write on the lines, but the lines are the same level. It's all the same level for me. And I sat there and I really, I really listened to him. And I thought to myself, wow, like it's I get it now. I get it. So all the things that I give you that are color don't work. And I had to ask him a couple of times because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I hear what he's saying, but wait, I everything's color, like everything I give you is color. And so I had to realize that colors work for me, but colors don't work for you. And so I had to realize that just what you're saying, Sandy, um, you have to keep going until you give the kid a strategy that works for him or her. It's not you. So our role as the parent is to give the child lots and lots of tools until they gravitate to one that works, that aligns with what they find um that's a match for them. Because it may not be a match for me. Don't stop with one that works for you as the parent. You got to keep going for one that works for the kid. And don't be upset. Because listen, I was in my feelings for a while. I was in my feelings, but I had to get over it.

Dr. Amy Moore 15:18

Yeah, I um I when I was getting my PhD, I was trying to um, I was actually teaching community college at the same time that I was getting my PhD. And so I had to organize. I have I have a wicked case of ADHD, Dr. Rochelle, if you didn't know that. So I had to keep, I had to organize what am I teaching today, and then what are my own assignments today? And so I had this color-coded clipboard, uh, you know, with uh the months printed out and these color-coded, you know, prompts for every single day that absolutely worked for me. And when I tried to share that with my oldest ADHD child who was, I don't know, maybe late elementary school at the time, he thought I was crazy. There was no way that he was gonna operate with this color-coded clipboard that mom uses, right? I mean, it's pink and purple and green. And and so I I get it when you say I was kind of in my feelings. I'm like, but why? I have an ADHD brain too, and it works for me. Why don't you want to do this? Um, but one of the things that I was thinking as you were talking about organizational skills, you know, I have an early childhood background. And so if you walk into any accredited early childhood classroom, what do you see? Very clearly labeled areas, buckets, shelves, not just labeled with words, but with the matching photograph, so that we can help kids very easily know that there's a place for everything. And when it's time to clean up, that is exactly where it goes in this bucket, on this shelf, in this area of the classroom. So, why does that not translate to our child's bedroom? Right? Like, shouldn't we be carrying over those concepts that we're using as educators? Why are we not doing that as moms and homeschoolers as well? Right? Wouldn't that be, it doesn't just have to be in a learning environment. Wouldn't that be helpful in the in the bedrooms as well? Because those are the ones that look like, you know, fireworks went off.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Exactly.

Clear Language And The Zone Method

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I love that. I love that. And you know what? That's a good, that is a that's a good point. And listen, I uh my background is early childhood too, and I never brought that home. You know, I I and I took off that hat and it was like, woof, I'm done, you know. And and a lot of uh a lot of it, like I said, is family. It's a family process, you know. Um training, training is huge, you know. You mentioned training, um, but it's not training the child, it's training the whole family, right? I have a role in my child's dysfunction, right? And so I have a role in my training of the dysfunction of my family. And so we have to all get on the same page. And this is why when families come to me, I make it clear I'm gonna serve the family and not just the child, right? You can't you can't just serve the child because the child is in a system. And so um, you let me let me let me look at the whole system and how and how well you do, and I make sure that I pick out these things are great. I love how you are so well organized, mom. Let's take some of that organization and see if it works for the family. How does the family fit into your organization? You know, because you can't walk into a house and the mom be super organized and she's super organized kind of in a bubble. And then the rest of the family, and and mom's issue is that the rest of the family is chaotic, right? You gotta, how does your organization fit into the family organization? And so, you know, um you have to, you kind of have to look at it. And your organization as one unit doesn't have to be the same organization. Um, I love your I love your analogy because my kids' bedroom is a hot mess, you know. But um, I had to find a different organization system. Um, and what I ended up doing is I I would we have to be careful with our language, because I remember um what we say, I would go in my son's bedroom and and I'd say, go clean your room. And and he'd he'd go in there, he'd clean, and he'd say, Mom, I'm done. You know, can I go play? And I'd look and I'd say, Your room is a mess. What are you talking about? And he'd look and he would really get upset. And I just couldn't upstand. I would get upset because he didn't do what I said, and and it was just it was a battle. And so then finally, I'd say, What did you do? And he would point to one thing he picked up in his room. So from his perspective, he did what I said. He cleaned up, and I said, Okay, I get it. So I took a picture of the room clean. We cleaned together. I took a picture of the room. I drew, uh, I drew um I one line straight down, one line um straight across. So it was a picture of his clean room and had four squares on it, right? And they were zones, zone one, two, three, and four. Okay, that was it. And so now when I walk in his room, I say, you know what? Zone one, two, and three look amazing. Do me a favor and go and tidy up zone four. And now we're on the same page. But my language is different. I am specific in terms of what I see and what I'm communicating. And so sometimes I think, kind of like what my husband would say when I say, the kitchen is a mess. What what do you mean? And and he would have just finished cleaning it, but the only thing he didn't do was rinse out the sink because when he cleaned, like all the food from the from the dishes he cleaned are still in the and for me, I'm like, no, the kitchen's not clean. Okay, so I have to change my language because the kitchen was clean from his perspective, but you didn't know rents out the sink. So he's like, Well, tell me what you want. And so I think it's important also that communication piece when we are looking for something specific. Um, it's kind of like when people come to us and say, My kid is a mess. Well, that's that's not, I need more information, or my kid has no executive functioning skills. And so I think that communication piece and helping families communicate better with what they want, because you can only get what you need if you can communicate what you're looking at and what you need. And so I think helping families to do that too is huge. I get so excited when I work with families because I just think that what they need is so attainable, but helping them to articulate that um to each other um is is the challenging part. Not fixing a kid. None of these kids need to be fixed, none of them, and that's what gets me excited. I'm like, yes, I can help you get there.

Sandy Zamalis 21:50

So I love thinking about this from the perspective of that training piece, obviously, because you know, we love that cognitive training side of things, but like in thinking of It in terms of helping families develop the skill for their student. One of the pitfalls that I feel a lot, and we're I was a homeschooling mom, so you know, I I definitely failed here too, is that sometimes um we tend to we are their executive functioning for a very long time and then we hand it off, like, okay, it's your job now to to get your things done and and plan your time and and do what you need to do to be successful. But there's a transition period in there that sometimes gets lost. Um, of how do we transition from me as a parent, being their executive functioning, planning their day and figuring out all the steps to then having them have ownership and the ability to do those tasks and things that they need to do to reach their goals and the things that they have planned for themselves. How do you help families see that in like the school side of things? So there's the chore and the living and the organization, family organization side, but now also the academic and learning side.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Absolutely. I think that is that's a great question. And um, I am an advocate for writing things down because sometimes we as families, we as parents, are so overwhelmed that we don't even know what we're giving our kids, right? But when you write it down, you make it tangible. Um, I'm gonna give you an example. Um, because I have six kids, I have to be somewhat organized. I'm gonna say air quotes. You know, and so one of the ways I organize is at the beginning of every year, um, I would write down for my kids exactly what they were doing, like what curriculum they were doing, what subjects, what they were, what what they were using. And so my youngest child at the time was 10. And so when I got to him, he's always the last because he's the easiest. You know, you're 10. I'm you know you're just you're doing whatever, okay. And and I know that I have to really, really help him out because he's the youngest, okay? So I did everybody else, and you know, and then I got to him and I was listing out the books he was using, and I literally ran out of paper because I had him doing so much, but I didn't realize that he had more than even the twins that were in high school. And I'm like, whoa, but I didn't realize it until I wrote it down. Like he had so many curriculums that he was supposed to be working from. And and I ended up having like five different English, and I'm like, wait, why, why, why? And it was all because I had never committed to actually choosing. So I had just decided, okay, well, you're gonna do this and this and this and this and this. And and I just forgot to make a choice. And so I just put them all in his bin. And he was just working from all of them. That and uh, and so I am an advocate for writing things down because sometimes I think we get lost. And and what I also I believe that knowledge is power. And the other, um, and so therefore, I think it's important to help families understand that the reason why middle schoolers seem to look the most disorganized is because of that transition that you're talking about between when we do everything to when they we give them things to do. And that tends to come between that elementary and middle school. Um, so we're we're kind of walking them through everything, and then all of a sudden in middle school, you know, they they they they become where also part of it is them where they want to become the big kids, um, and they start wanting more responsibility. And and we we hand it over. But when we hand it over, it's like, you know, it's not one at a time. It's like, oh, you want to be a big kid, here you go. And you know, we just literally throw it at them, everything but the keys, right? But we don't realize what we're giving them. Um, and so the responsibility that we give them is a lot, you know. Um, it's little to us. Okay, now I want you to um you know you can fix yourself your own food. Now you can get yourself your dress, you can pick your own outfit out, you can, you know, navigate through your morning routine, you can, oh, and if you have siblings, you can, you know, do some things for them. And and it, it's like, whoa, wait, hold on. A minute ago, you were doing all this for me. You know, oh, we haven't talked about school yet. You know, you're navigating your own self through school, and oh, wait, you've got siblings, you can help them too. Okay, so now you've gone from helping me do everything to now automatically you've got at least about 20 tasks. And if they play some sports or extracurriculars, and I mean, we're talking about, we don't even do that much as adults, but yet then all of a sudden we slap a label on them of being disorganized. Whoa, but that's not fair. So sometimes when you write it down, write down a schedule or write down exactly what it is they're doing, that's super helpful. Because then even you, as the parent or the adult will say, Okay, wait, I couldn't even handle that. Like, there's not that many hours in the day, right? And so I am an advocate for writing things down and actually seeing them, even when you want to track progress. You know, give a give kids things slow. Make sure they're accomplishing them successfully, and then add to it so that they see it as a win. Like, you are nailing this, you're doing an amazing job. Let's add something because you are doing phenomenal. Don't make it a punishment so that you have to scale back because then it will all they then they will feel like um growing up is actually a punishment. Like, I don't want to be an adult, like adulting is too hard. Like, we don't want them to think that. We want them to feel good about growing up.

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Choices Consequences And Family Goals

Sandy Zamalis 27:23

One of my colleagues um has a great system to help kids see it visually too. Like sometimes I think kids need to need to see it visually. Like, okay, um, I've got this assignment that's due at the end of the week, right? But I've also got co-op, karate, and like put it all like just on a week, just a week's calendar of like, all right, this is the time you have in the day. They need to be able to see that time so that they can figure out and plot and plan, well, when am I going to work on this particular um thing that I need to have done by the end of the week? And sometimes we miss that as parents. Like we don't necessarily we think that they see it and then understand it, but they don't. They actually need that visual representation of their time so that when they're plotting and planning it out, especially if we want them to have ownership, um, they've got to be able to figure out, like, oh, I can't do that on Tuesday. I have 40 things I have to do on Tuesday, I'm gonna have to do it on Monday. Yes. Homeschool OT is for families whose children want to learn and participate, but struggle with what their days require. Things like starting work, staying regulated, writing, reading, or following through on plans. Created by occupational therapist and homeschool mom Sarah Collins, homeschool OT helps parents understand why these challenges show up by breaking down executive functioning, sensory processing, and motor skills in real practical ways. Through the OT is in podcast, parent coaching, and targeted classes, families learn how to turn that understanding into strategies they can actually use in their homeschool day. Because homeschooling is not alone schooling. You can find support, resources, and expert guidance at homeschoolot.com. And now a word from our sponsor, Learning RX. In second grade, Isla was struggling to read despite being pulled out of class to work with a reading specialist. Progress was slow and Isla was frustrated. She hated to read, and it was a battle to get her to pick up a book to practice reading every evening. Her Learning RX cognitive skills assessment provided insights as to why, despite consistent reading interventions, Isla struggled to read and spell. Her assessment revealed significant weaknesses in memory, auditory processing, and attention skills. See, to unlock reading ability, it is critical to address underlying deficits and cognitive skills. Isla's Learning RX training targeted these weaknesses and her reading has taken off. At the beginning of second grade, she was reading at a kindergarten level. After brain training, she is now reading at a third grade level. Isla now loves to read and is devouring books. Your child may not achieve the same results as Isla, but the team at Learning RX would love to talk to you to see if cognitive skills training might be the next best step in your child's reading journey. Visit Learningrx.com slash the Brainy Moms to learn more and receive a cognitive skills assessment with a consultation for just$99. That's LearningRX.com slash the Brainy Moms.

Dr. Amy Moore 30:33

Can you share a little bit about how much room there is for compromise? And when we're thinking about how do we help our children learn to become organized, is part of that process helping them rack and stack priorities and understand the why behind some of that? You know, when I work with families, so often I get pushback things like, well, they just need to do it because I told them to, right? That's a very common phrase, right? Like, and then you're just creating a power struggle. So what is your what is your approach and what is your advice for how to work in that uh area of uh cooperative cooperation and compromise and like doing it in terms of meeting family values and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, yeah. So um there are some some families that say I need my kid to be obedient. Obedient is is the priority. And I agree, obedience is the priority, but what is your goal? Is your goal to have your child obtain more responsibility? Okay, that's the short-term goal. What is the long-term goal? Do you want them to be independent adults that are self-sufficient with and they're able to independently navigate life? Or do you want your kid to be obedient because those are two different avenues? I mean, you can get your kids to do anything you want, they're little, but that's not necessarily going to lead to the long-term goal of them being able to be independent. And so it depends on what your goal is. I mean, I I have that conversation with them. So you tell me your goal and I can help you get there. But but being obedient is not necessarily going to get you to the your end goal. So we have to talk about short-term goals and long-term goals. And usually that that will rectify that I need them to be obedient. I I I hear you and I agree that children should obey their parents. I don't think that they should be disrespectful, but they can be obedient and they can also, and you can also compromise because a compromise can be um when you give a when you give a child a choice, there could be two choices that you've decided to give them. So they it's not an open, you don't give kids open-ended choices. That's, you know, what do you want for dinner? Don't give them that choice. If you have two things in your refrigerator that you're willing to make, those are the options they get. And the reality is, is that even if they're too non-preferred, if they choose one, kids tend to accept the choice that they have made. You made the choice. And you chose liver, even though you don't like it. So then you have to live with your choice. You know, you don't like it, but you chose it. And so uh we're gonna live with your choice, and then tomorrow we'll make a different choice. Tomorrow, maybe we can go out and get something that you prefer. Tomorrow will be your choice of a meal and we'll we'll we'll go get it. But or next week. But make sure when you give them a choice that they can that that whatever they choose is something they can have. But you to avoid the confrontation, you never give them an open-ended choice of something they can't have. Do you want to go to the show?

Dr. Amy Moore 33:52

You have to be able to live with with the options that you're offering.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Absolutely.

Sandy Zamalis 33:59

And I love that. I love that um it incorporates that autonomy of your child too. Like they they should have some control in their world, even if it's just a framed, you know, choice for the day. Like these are the subjects we need to get done for today. Which one would you like to do first? Like, we're getting these four. I'll allow you to pick the one that we're gonna do first today and kind of go from there. I love that kind of principle when we think about giving them that agency to have some control over their life each day.

unknown 34:34

Absolutely.

Dr. Amy Moore 34:35

Yeah, I learned that the the m best way uh to get that compliance um I was to say, hey, before four o'clock today, you need to do these things on this. I don't care when you do them, but before four o'clock, they need to get done. Um, and what do you think should happen if they don't get done by four o'clock?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Right. I think I think investment in whatever they do is important. Not only that for right now, I also think it's a life skill. I mean, it gives them it gives them the understanding that um that when people when people uh uh especially little kids, they don't also always understand that consequences are not punishments. And that makes that distinguish distinguishment for them. When I when I decide to speed, a ticket is not a punishment. A ticket is a consequence of my actions that I have chosen. And so if you choose to do something that you know is not right, it's not a punishment if you get caught. It is a consequence of your actions. And so I think what you just said, Dr. Amy, is really important to help kids understand that consequence. And I think we need to frame um more things like what you said, because I think it helps kids long term. And I think the more time we invest in our kids and giving them autonomy and giving them choices and giving them the space to be a part of their own decision making when they are young. Um, I think that helps them to think. Because I think we need to create thinkers, little people that grow up to be thinkers. We can't always control them because then later on they're not going to think. They're not going to be able to think on their own. And then they have difficulty when we give them responsibilities later on. They're not able to think about how can I organize my day when mom or dad do it for me, and then it's my turn. Well, I don't know how to do it because mom and dad have always done it for me. And so I think things like that really, really help with that transition. Um, and and during that transition to to give them autonomy to make some choices. I think that's super important.

Sandy Zamalis 36:53

Do you tweak any of your message with families for special needs students in particular? Like it's one thing to think about it from, you know, kids that maybe just have some executive functioning pieces that they're working through. But what if there's deeper needs there that we're trying to build that independence and autonomy and they just need more scaffolding and support? What kinds of baby steps or things do you help families kind of see um to help those kids grow too?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Absolutely. Um, so the first thing is is that I I do tweet the message, but I think that my underlying tone in the message is the same because I think that we need to approach all kids is that first of all, they are kids first, and then they come with they come with like a shirt. Okay. You have a kid and they're wearing clothing. I think that's kind of how I see disabilities. Um, you know, you're a kid, and then you have all of these things that prohibit you from showing um, you know, what you can do a lot of times. You have nonverbal kids. I believe that those nonverbal kids, they they have lots of thoughts that somehow, if they don't have a correct system um that allow them to communicate what they want to in full sentences or full ideas, um, they still have ideas that you have to give them a platform to make choices um and things like that. So that um so I believe that there's still a lot of executive functioning skills that you have to work on and other and other behaviors like that, but I still think that they need choices as much as possible. And I do understand that um intellectually, sometimes those choices have to be made, but as much as possible. I think that families, the first thing they should do um when kids are young are learn your kids as kids and as um and as students, right? And I make the distinction between the two. As a learner, who is your kid? What is your kid like? Um, what motivates your kid? Um, what um, for example, how do you reinforce your kid? Um, what makes your kid how do how do they do motorically? Or, you know, how do they do choices? Um, so that is twofold. You know, as mom, what motivates my kid? Like, how do I get them to do something? How do I get them to clean their room? Like, what do I need to do to get you to clean your room? Is that allowance? Is that time on your technology or you know, whatever? That's different from um getting you motivated to do your work independently, right? I don't always want to be the one to force you to do your work. What does that look like? Is that um giving you breaks because you need a brain break? Is that um giving you less? Are you motivated if I say, here's a page, you can do every other problem in that? Um, so what are what how does your student learn as a learner? And I think I think families need to really separate those two sometimes, especially for students with special needs, because too often we group them together and think that you just have one child and that um because they won't perform in one environment or in one situation, that that's just them all together. Uh, and so I think that once you learn your child as a learner, you can use what you know and and um present some of that in terms of the choices and how much autonomy and and what what you how you scaffold them in terms of allowing allowing them to make the same type of choices you would with other kids.

Dr. Amy Moore 40:24

So one of the challenges when you have a child with learning struggles is that there's a frustration tolerance issue, right? And so talk a little bit about the emotion regulation piece in learning and what parents can do when they see that frustration level rise, that temperature rising. Um what are your tips for helping kids uh learn emotion regulation?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

So emotional regulation due to due to academics.

Dr. Amy Moore 41:03

The frustration, right? You're at the table, it's too hard, and um you know that reaction can be explosive um in in children with big emotions, uh ADHD, autism. So how do we lower the temperature on those explosive emotions when they're frustrated when they can't do something?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Well, first of all, I I revisit the goals.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

What is the goal of what are the goals for the family? Um, because sometimes with kids with big emotions, um, I have families just reset. Um, what are the priorities? Because sometimes academics is not always the priority. And unfortunately, um families are so focused thinking that school means academics. But when you homeschool, we're talking about life. Like the goal is to create these kids so that they can function in life. And if big emotions are prohibiting you from getting through a school day, then the academics is not your priority, right? We need to make a situation where they are okay, whether it be something internal or something that's frustrating them. And so that may be that we are reducing the academic load. Is the academic load not appropriate, right? Maybe they maybe you do need to adjust it, but but maybe we need to work on emotional regulation, maybe something emotional, giving them strategies, giving them ways to communicate. Um, and so twofold there. Um sometimes when you see your child frustrated or upset, there's there is an opposite reaction that you either get frustrated with your child, um, and and the tension between you two kind of makes the situation worse, or a lot of times families also will want to um coddle their family, coddle their kids to the point to the point where it's non-productive. Nothing is happening. Um, so I I encourage families again, use different strategies because this is the time to lean in and teach your kids strategies. And so we revisit goals again. Is it that the goal right now needs to not be academic? We need to shame, we need to, we need to turn the page and create other goals that give kids life skills that will deal with the academic regulation piece. Is it that we need to bring somebody else in and assess and then maybe bring another specialist in to help us brainstorm um some other life skill goals or deal with the emotional piece? Um, but but but I think the bottom line is that I think sometimes if you have a kid with big emotions and it is bigger than um bigger and it's pro prohibiting you from moving forward academically, there probably is something that needs to be done that refocuses what your goals are because they may not just be academic. And so I always keep that on the back burner for families that. You should be able to work on academics without always stopping for emotional regulation.

Dr. Amy Moore 44:07

But I think that's a great point, too, that you that you're releasing parents from that idea that this has to get done and this has to get done now, and my child is falling apart, and now we're not going to cover this part of the curriculum today. And so for you to say, families, you have the freedom to pull back a little bit and say, what's happening here? What do I need to adjust to set my child up for success? Right? Is there a gap in the skills that my child has that's keeping them from accomplishing this task, right? Is that a cognitive skill deficit? Is that an emotional skill deficit? Is this an organ organizational piece? Did they miss some level of instruction two days ago that they need today? Right. It's an opportunity for the parent to say what is missing here. And and and that's okay that we're going to take the time to diagnose what's missing.

Sandy Zamalis 45:07

We have to be detectives, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah. And I and I think I think the other thing to remember too is that this is why, you know, traditional education models fall short of meeting the needs of diverse learners. But um, especially learners with, you know, learning differences or executive function challenges, um, or even you know, non-traditional learning styles. But when you homeschool, this is why we homeschool. You know, it's not all about digging in and having to turn a page and beat a clock and having a certain time frame. You know, you can individualize and meet your child's needs. If they need support with executive functioning, that's where you go. If they need support with emotional regulation, that's where you go. You have time to individualize whatever your child needs and avoid those um rigid systems that keep you focusing on things that are not the priority of your child. And so um, that whole idea that one um education system fits all goes out the window when you choose to homeschool. And so this is why I I would not look back. You know, I have six very, very different learners, and I just have no idea how we would have made it had I have chosen to put them in school. I don't I don't think we would have made it.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore 46:24

So what are some um resources that you recommend? Where do you send parents when they are struggling? Where should they start? Who should they ask? Talk a little bit about that. Because that's the space you work in, right? Is is pointing parents in the right direction.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Yeah, absolutely. So um, of course, I'm gonna say um HSLDA has a plethora of resources. Um they have some amazing articles um um with lots of resources on their on their website if you are a member. Um so you do have to be a member to access a lot of their resources. Um I I have tons of resources on the EFM, EFMeducation.com website. Um, and anybody can access those resources. Um there are articles on there and the spin-off articles where there are tons of resources depending on what your interest is, whether it be executive functioning, you're just starting. Um there are resources if you have learners that are graduating and you're kind of looking for that transitional support. So, regardless of what you're looking for, um you can kind of find resources. Um you all have amazing resources. I'm not gonna over overlook that. So you gotta stop there. Um, but what I what I always say is uh regardless of where you live, find your village. Okay. You cannot do this alone. Do not try to do this alone. People who are successful do not do this alone. I just look at people all the time trying to navigate any of this by themselves, and I just cringe and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Um, and people assume that because I got a terminal degree and I've got a PhD and I do all this and I and I create resources that I do this alone, and I say absolutely not, not one day. But let me tell you, when I started out with my son in kindergarten, I was, I have to say, I did start off a little arrogant. I'm like, I don't need anybody. Oh no, I'm gonna kindergarten I have him in kindergarten and we were treading alone. It took me all of two weeks to be humble. You hear me? Two solid weeks. Okay. And I was like, where my people, I need people, right? Okay, we do not do this alone. And I have successfully homeschooled for 19 years in a village. So find your village. There is a village, regardless of where you live. Um, so so find people because the people um are going to be able to help you find the resources in your area. Um, and that's really, really important. You know, when you decide, and your people are the people that when you decide, this is it, I can't do this anymore, those are the people that are like, well, wait, here's the resource. Those are the people that push you back, right? They're not the people that say, yep, put them in public school, right? Those are the people you push out of your circle. The people that the people that you need close are the people that keep pushing you where your goals are. If your goal is to continue to support your learner in the home, then those are the people you keep in your inner circle. You know, there there are reasons to, you know, to um to go to different programs and and that's fine. But the people who you want close to you are the people who are going to continue to show you and support whatever your goals are. Those are the people you keep close.

Dr. Amy Moore 49:45

So I say find your village. Great advice.

unknown 49:49

Dr.

Dr. Amy Moore 49:49

Rochelle, thank you so much for being with us today, for taking time out of your busy schedule to bless our listeners with some really valuable tips. We we've been looking forward to this conversation with you. And so we're so excited that you finally got to come share uh some time with us. Uh, we would love it if you would come back for another conversation. I know that you like to talk about um that next stage of adulthood, early emerging adulthood, and how success doesn't look the same for everyone. And so we'd love it if you would come back and spend uh an entire episode just focused on that with us, if you're willing. I'm putting you on the spot while we're live. Um Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

I would love to do that. And you guys have blessed me with the conversation. I absolutely love, love, love you all. And so thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Amy Moore 50:40

Oh, well, thank you for being here. So we're gonna put links uh in the show notes, listeners, so that you can find all those resources that Dr. Rochelle mentioned, so that you can find her if you want uh to read more about her and get more from her. Also, if you want more from us, remember to sign up for our monthly newsletter at theBrainyMoms.com. You can find us on social media at the Brainy Moms. Please subscribe to our YouTube uh channel at the Brainy Moms Podcast. Um, and you can find Sandy on TikTok at the Brain Trainer Lady. Look, that's all we have for you today. But we hope you feel a little bit smarter after spending this hour with us. We're gonna catch you next time.