Can Exercise be Harmful? Orthorexia with FitPro Jennifer Hicks - Episode 47

In this weeks episode, we chat with Canadian NIA instructor Jennifer HIcks
We talk about
👉🏻 Jenn's history with exercise addiction and an eating disorder
👉🏻 How she was able recover and start finding joy after a very unhealthy relationship with movement
👉🏻 NIA and what it is and how that changed her relationship with movement
and more

Jenn Hicks is a Black Belt Nia instructor and Size-Inclusive Fitness Specialist who has taught all over the world. She was named NOW Magazines' Best Virtual Fitness Instructor for 2020 and recently became a Nia White Belt Trainer. Trained in Classic Nia and Nia MoveIT, Jenn customizes routines for every class and helps attendees modify steps or movements whenever they need a little extra care. She values and teaches weight-neutral fitness classes that follow HAES principles. Jenn works with neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals including people with eating disorders, body dysmorphia, brain trauma, mental health issues, and dementia. She is currently studying to become a Personal Trainer with CanFitPro.

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From the episode:

Megan Jane Crab - "Body Positive Power"

Sonya Renee Taylor

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Transcript

 Welcome Jen to the show. I'm so excited to chat with you and get to know you a little better too. 

Thank you so much for having me, Christine. I appreciate it. 

Yeah. So I really want to start with your story and how you got to where you are today. So why don't you share with our listeners kind of your journey?

Of course. Yeah. Well, you know, growing up as a kid, I was probably the least active,  there was not an athletic bone in my body, my  way of being in the world. And my sense of self-worth was really tied to my academic performance. , so I really heavily concentrated, I think, , that was the natural path for me.

, So the fact that what I'm about to tell you next happened to me is, is really. Quite astonishing. , in my, uh, mid, mid twenties, late twenties, , there was , an illness in the family and, , I didn't realize at the time, but I was really anxious about that illness. And

the way that I turned to, um, manage that was through exercise. So I began doing a lot of running and weightlifting and swimming, all kinds of different types of activities that I previously had not really enjoyed. , and they sort of, I guess, quelled that anxiety for a little bit, , however, before long.

I guess I was also managing what they would now call orthorexia. So sort of this obsession with health and nutrition and food. , so combine those two things led me to a diagnosis of anorexia in my late twenties, , which was really. A strange phenomenon for me at the time. I think I having been a chubby fat little kid, my, you know, my entire life.

 The fact that I wasn't, I didn't set out intending for this, but the fact that my body was shrinking was actually. In that I had been given the message all throughout my life. That being thinner was better. This was something that was pleasing to me. So it was kind of confusing at the beginning when, , family, friends, my doctor expressed concerns, , about, about my rapid weight loss and my continuous exercise.

 The exercise really. Out of control, , to the point that I was leaving work in the middle of the day to exercise, I was leaving the house in the middle of the night to exercise, lying to my husband, , about it. And, , just really wrapped up in this idea that I could control my body. , so it led me to.

Too. So not very good places, mentally, physically. , I ended up being put on a medical leave, , from work and I like any other kind of addiction. I couldn't stop. I was addicted to the, the endorphins, I suppose, and addicted to what I was able to control through the exercise. And, , and the anorexia. 

Wow. So much to unpack there because you know, we always look at exercise as, or maybe even the messaging is always, that is so helpful. It's, it's good for you, but it can be very harmful and dangerous and unhealthy when it becomes that obsessiveness. And it's just, it's just so hard to manage that when you're in the throws of it all.

So how did you find your way. Out from being so obsessed and having this disorder to where you are now , 

 Right, right. Uh, well, it was a long process. I think my dismissal from work, uh, was sort of my rock bottom. , and I had some choices to make at that time.

Going to spend my time. I was encouraged to seek sort of more medical attention, , by going to an outpatient program and something, I mean, I have this very strong sense of intuition, this, , really loud, inner voice that said that, um, kind of a rigid model I was being rigid. Enough with myself. I was punishing myself and I didn't want to enter into that, , kind of a scenario.

So I guess my creative nature came out and I designed my own treatment program. , I took meditation classes. I took singing classes. I took art classes. , All kinds of things, , group therapy, psychotherapy, , but really tapping into my creative side. , so I guess that in itself led me to Mia and I do credit both my psychiatrist and Nia for having, um, giving me a way out.

Really, it was a gradual process, but I would pinpoint those to, uh, have called them interventions for me. They were, um, for, for, for getting me to where I am today. 

So for those that are not familiar with Nia, can you explain what Nia is? 

Right. So Nia is a 35 plus year old fitness and lifestyle practice. , that was created,  by the founders, Debbie roses and Carlos Rosas, who were at the time.

This is sort of the mid, early mid eighties at the time were  running a very successful aerobics business. And, , we're finding that they themselves were getting injured, , along with their teachers and their students, and figured that there, that what they were doing was kind of mechanical and rote.

And so they stepped away from, from that gave up, , the successful business to research. What other ways can we move our body, ,  that center around joy that aren't harmful, that don't cause injury. So at the end of an extensive period of research, they put together a different movement forms from the martial arts.

The dance arts and the healing arts, and sort of packaged them together to create Nia, which back  , in its infancy was what,  was non-impact aerobics. Nia, N I a M. Now we don't refer to it in that same way. Um, but. It was intended. It was designed so that we are really respecting the form and function of our bodies, respecting how we're designed to move.

So there's no jumping and pounding, compromising, , joints.  And we say, That we want to move, , in ways that feel pleasurable, not painful. , so that's what the movement focuses on. And I think that whole notion of pleasure in movement was foreign to me. , in that the exercise was really a function of manipulating my body prior to me having met Nia. And that the, the whole piece around respecting one's body, , I've never been taught to respect my body

definitely is a foreign idea. So, 

yeah, it was like, this is a good concept. And why has it taken me until my thirties for, for me to discover that? Yeah, I do deserve respect and this was, you know, I'm talking my discovery predated Facebook. Okay. So there were no body positive communities or anything like that in, in, at that time.

So this was revolutionary. 

Yeah. So, so different. Yeah. Really 

like. It taught. It forced me to be in my body and not in my head. I mentioned previously that I identified with being more academic oriented, which  means I really lived from my neck up. I did not ever live in my body. So this was really teaching me like, no, , when it hurts modified, don't just push through it.

Don't just, um, soldier on, which is how I lived my entire 

life. I think we've all been taught that whether it be just like you talked about the messaging, that's just like ingrained in us. And the reason even why Nia was started because in the eighties it was just so much impact. And so much of that go, go, go mentality, work harder.

Again, that it doesn't really serve us. And I love what you said about that. It respects our body's way of functioning, as opposed to. I guess the messaging we've all been taught for so many years that we talk about so much on this podcast is that we've just been taught to just shrink our bodies or reshape our body in some way.

And, , I think we all spend a lot of time in our head because we hear this messaging all the time. 

Oh, yeah. And the messaging who controls that? I mean, it's the diet industry. It's fashion magazines, it's capitalism. They want to sell us a product to change our body. When really, if you listen to someone like Sonya, Renee Taylor, we are inherently divine.

We, we have, you know, we are born with that divinity and it's our outside environment that is bombarding us with this messaging, um, that, that takes that away. So with problems 

that we didn't even know, we had, I think about when you're young and you're a little kid and you don't even think of. You know the shape of your body, you're just using your body and you're having fun and you're playing.

And at some point we're taught this messaging and all of a sudden, like you said, it's capitalism, they're trying to sell us something and trying to tell us and shoved down our throat that we have a problem when maybe we didn't have a problem. 

No. Yeah, no. I mean, it's, it's normal. I'm a woman in her late forties.

It's normal to have chin hair. I don't need electrolysis. You know, I don't need to pay someone thousands of dollars to manipulate the fact that my eyes are, you know, gravity's taking my, my eyes down. Um, it's. Part of embracing just who we are. And, and this has been, you know, such a journey with, I have so many, I'm grateful for so many authors and content creators, and who, who just share.

I mean the first, the first book I ever read about body positivity was, uh, by, um, Megan, Jean crab, um, it's called body positive power and she was speaking a language that I didn't know existed, you know, and, and that really helped me question where these messages are coming from and who they serve. 

So with so much of that noise, that's out there.

Did you find, like you started with this book? Like what, what did you find helped you shift to kind of quiet the noise from diet culture and to take this more body positive and weight neutral approach. What, what shifts had to happen in you that maybe you can share and help some lifts? 

, well, , it all starts from within essentially.

And so I had to look at unpacking some of my aunt internalized fatphobia my internalized, you know, I'm, I'm working on it every day. Um, the, the judgmental part of me that, that looks at people and make snap judgements, , So I I'm working that like I'm a work in progress, definitely. , but , it's those kinds of, , self-reflections, I think that are so important.

It's not, uh, you know, I have some control over the way I think, and perceive my, uh, about my world. Um, and. What I don't have as much control over capitalism. I mean, I can play my part in, in, in pointing it out, but what I can control is how I think and be an example to others. 

Yeah. I think that's where a lot of people miss, like miss the mark in this work is they don't start with themselves.

And there is so much, I mean, it is a practice like, like ni is a practice. Like yoga is a practice. It's it is daily work, you know? Reach this point and you're like all done. I'm perfect. Now, especially because of how bombarded we are by this messaging. So I think a lot of people don't start with that unpacking of what.

Is in themselves and we're all, we all have our own biases. We all have our own background that made us who we are. So it's really important to start with that with, with 

ourselves. I think so, too. And you know, I feel grateful now to be alive in a time where we have social media and where. And not only do we have free flowing information, but I have the opportunity to cure rate what I'm exposed to.

So my Instagram, you know, I consciously made the effort, uh, years ago and continually do so now . I am a white woman with a lot of privilege. I don't need to see a lot of other white women with a lot of privilege. I would like to learn from and be exposed to, uh, black people, indigenous people. Um, I'm a CIS hetero woman.

I want to learn from people who have different life experiences. From the queer community from the BiPAP community, like from the disabled community, like I want to be exposed to this, uh, which is what's so incredible about platforms like Instagram and tick talk is that they can really be tools, positive tools for change.

Yeah, I think all the time we hear all the negative things about social media, but I think it's so true. If you, like you said, Curie, what you want to be exposed to, regardless of where you live. Like you could live in an area that is predominantly everybody like you, and if you only expose herself to that, You really don't, you really don't learn anything.

So having that exposure, having social media, bringing that exposure to you, all these different backgrounds and ethnicities, and it's just, it really is a positive thing. I, again, I think a lot of times we focus on the negative, 

definitely in that and that we have control and what we're you're exposed to, um, starts to.

Uh, what, what did someone, when my students said to me, when I learned something new, I am no longer the same person. If you think about it, you know, if you think about neuro, uh, neurology, I learned something new. I've got new synapses firing. I'm a different person because of this beautiful new piece of knowledge.

Oh, wow. 

That's really good. Yeah. Think about that along those lines. Yeah. So let's get into, , choosing. Like a shoe choosing who we're talking about, choosing who we're surrounded by, on social media. Let's talk about then now as a, as a, maybe as a participant that wants to get into movement. Cause we talked about how maybe harmful movement can be, tell how it was definitely very high-impact in the eighties.

How important is it for someone to look at? The maybe the fitness module, like the modality they use or the coach or the instructor. , how important is that in helping find movement that does feel good, that isn't harmful or, you know, a lot of stress on the body that really serves us? 

Well, I think. You know, it's all about choice, right?

So in, in Nia, we talk about choosing a sensation, choosing joyful music, choosing whatever it is in your life. Taking the opportunity to choose and just like you and I may not like the same Netflix shows, or we may not like to read the same genre of a book. Why should we both like the same kind of fitness?

Why should we both have the same, um, connection to any kind of movement form that that's ridiculous. And I feel like. The messaging in the past has been, oh, you don't like sports, what's wrong with you? Or,  try this class. You'll like it. How did, how does anyone know what I like? Right.

It's it's like I have such a unique individual experience and. What's really important. I think to acknowledge is that there, and you I'm sure have spoken about this on your show. There is a very real phenomena of Jim trauma, sports, trauma, um, physio, head trauma, where people have disturbing experiences in movement spaces and it can happen.

Anywhere.  So I think it's really important for people to be selective and to really choose what's best for them. , you go to a class and it doesn't work for you.  Maybe there's give it a few, a few tries to see if, if it, if it truly does work for you, but maybe it's at the end of the day.

If this doesn't serve you find something you love, maybe it's table tennis. Maybe it's walking your dog. Like why do we have to be so elitist about thinking that there has to be some, , certain way that people move their bodies? Like we have bodily autonomy. Like we, we want to respect how our bodies feel and no one.

Us can ticket, you know, an individual can say how their body feels. So move it accordingly, move it in a way. Maybe you love cleaning houses. Like maybe that's how you love to move your body. Amazing. Yeah. I mean, let's talk about the, the opposite, which you, one of your guests, uh, Reagan chestain has talked a lot about the moral superiority that seems to come with, um, movement practices.

Like I am not a better person. Is since I teach Mia or I do Nia, you are not a better person because you own a gym.  We're all equally valuable and worthy people, whether we move our bodies or not. So 

true, so true. I think that's just very culturally what we've been taught, just like all the other garbage that someone is like superior because they run 10 miles every day, or because they, you know, XYZ because of their workout routine.

When all, all forms of movement are. Are are available to it. So anyone and no one's no one's obligated to, to move their body either. I just always like to encourage people to explore it because it's a great way to find joy and to, , improve your health in other ways, other than shrinking your body. But if there's no more obligation and people do, I think, as a gym owner, like you mentioned, I own a fitness studio and people just think that.

My mission is to get everybody fit, get everybody in classes. And first not everyone's a good fit for the movement that I offer. I want to offer movement that is available and accessible to all, but it may not serve everyone. And, and there might be something better that makes them feel more connected to their joy in a different modality, right.

Or in a different, just, just different movement. And at the same time, No, one's obligated. Someone could love dancing, but right now it just doesn't serve them. They have a lot of other things going on and maybe at some point in their life, they will come and be a client. But again, I think that a lot of people do kind of put that, um, kind of tell people that you should be, you should be working out and really.

People have bodily autonomy, as you mentioned. So, 

yeah. And I don't know about you, but I don't like to be told what to do to make my own choices. Right. And, uh, you know, don't get me wrong. Nia is entirely about joyful movement. And for me it's been a practice, like you said, it's been a practice to let myself go there emotionally to let go of some of the.

The gym trauma or the experiences from the past. Um, and I think it's brilliant. I just, uh, I want to be level headed and think, you know, I work a lot with people with dementia, teaching them, Nia, um, and I'm constantly reinforcing. You don't have to do what I'm doing, you know, do what feels good for you. Um, take a break when you need to eat, listen to your body, drink water, you know, really make choices, um, that, that suit you in the moment.

Yeah, I love that. And if anyone is interested in learning more about Nia, when to put, uh, not only the information about Nia, but you have a wonderful YouTube channel and other social media places that people can find, uh, what you're doing. And connect with you more. And before we close out this episode, I want to ask you a few quick fire questions.

And I think one of them, I know what the answer is going to be. So we'll start with that one, the favorite way to move your body. Hm, Nia, I figured as much. And do you have favorite music that you like to use in Nia or just in general music that you like to? 

I listened to such a wide variety of music from classical to J-pop to reggae, to it all.

You know, I get something out of all of it. 

And your favorite way to practice self care. 

Um, don't judge, 

no judgment, never any judgment here, 

never. At the end of the day, what I look forward to is looking through 

tick-tock. Oh, I, I, I concur with you there. And I think my husband would say the same because he hears it on a loop.

Right. Cause you sign them on your life and it's the thing he's like, what are you listening to during that off? 

I just find it's, you know, surprising to me what, um, a caring, connected community and really supportive, supportive community, um, Tik TOK is and the talent. Yeah. That's 

a lot of talent. There's a lot of really interesting things.

People always again go to the negative with social media, but when you curate you follow the right people, you will curate yourself a wonderful entertaining and sometimes even enlightening experience with Tik TOK. I agree. I agree. So let's, um, also finish with one last thing. Um, Guilty pleasure. Maybe something that you've binge watched television could be a book movie.

Most people with COVID have watched a lot of television on Netflix or Hulu or whatever the streaming services are. So we always like to find out there's something good that you would recommend for listeners to 

watch.  Well, this sort of predates the pandemic. It's a show I lost touch with and then picked up again on a it's a podcast called she's all fat. And, um, they did several seasons. Uh, there are unfortunately no longer, uh, producing the show, but excellent, excellent resource and entertaining. Eye-opening um, just love it. So it's a real community. Oh, 

great.

I'll definitely post that in the show notes and I might need to tune in to that as well. So thank you so much, Jen, for taking the time to connect and share your story with listeners. And I'm sure people listening right now will go over to the show notes and click on all your social links so that way they can follow and connect with you.

So thank you so 

much. Wonderful. Thank you. I appreciate it, Christine.