Beggars Telling Beggars Where to Find Bread: Faith on the Front Lines

The Rundown: In this episode, Josh sits down with Jared Altic, a veteran police chaplain and host of the Hey Chaplain podcast. They dive deep into the often-overlooked world of law enforcement chaplaincy—from delivering death notifications to supporting officers who see the worst of humanity.

They discuss the theology of trauma, why a "safe" childhood isn't a spiritual disadvantage, and how the church can move beyond shallow support to truly partner with their local police departments.

3 Key Takeaways:

• 1. The "Beggars Telling Beggars" Mindset: Jared and Josh discuss why the church isn’t a country club for the perfect, but a hospital for the broken. Effective ministry (and parenting!) requires the humility to admit we are all just "beggars telling other beggars where to find bread."
• 2. Resilience vs. Calluses: We often think we need a gritty testimony to be tough. Jared breaks down the ACES (Adverse Childhood Experiences) score and explains why a safe, loving upbringing isn't a weakness—it’s the foundation for the resilience needed to help others in crisis.
• 3. Practical Support > Cookies: Want to support your local police? Stop guessing. Jared challenges listeners to move beyond dropping off cookies (which often get thrown away!) and instead ask the department what they actually need. Whether it’s funding a vest, a radio, or daycare for a single mom in uniform, true support solves real problems.

Links & Resources:

• Check out Jared's Podcast: https://heychaplain.buzzsprout.com/
• Mentioned in this episode: Jimmy Carr on "Low Stakes" living vs. Fatherhood.
• Scripture Reference: "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) – Loving the unlovable cop.

https://www.missionsent.org/

Transcript

Content Warning And Setup

Josh 0:00

Hey everyone, it's Josh. We don't normally do this, but I want to give you a warning real quick. This episode is going to deal with a little bit uh more mature content. Um if you are someone who struggles with anxiety and depression, um things of that nature, we're gonna get into some things um in this episode with a special guest and how we deal with it. So without further ado, let's jump into it. You're listening to Practically Christian Podcast, taking all that information you got, all the brain, and giving you real practical application. Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of Practically Christian Podcast. Today, Debbie is not going to be joining with us, but I am joined by Jared Altic of the Hey Chaplin Podcast. Um, Jared, how are you?

Jared Altic 1:01

I'm doing well. How are you today?

A Death Notification Gone Wrong

What Chaplains Do On Scene

Josh 1:03

I am good. And I know we talked, you know, beforehand, but we're just gonna get into this. So my background for people that have been listening for a while, I'm sure you already know I am former army, I am former uh law enforcement. Um and although like my favorite thing in boot camp was Sunday mornings, because on Sunday morning, any soldier who wanted to could go to service with the chaplain. And for that 40-ish minutes, it's the only time I remember not caring how long the pastor preached. Um because as long as you were in there, you weren't getting yelled at, you weren't getting smoked, you weren't getting any of that. Plus, it gave me that like semblance of being home. Um and then when I transitioned into law enforcement, and this is the story I was gonna tell you. So we uh in Volusia County in District 4, especially, we were super busy all the time. And there were a bunch of calls holding one day, and I saw a call in my zone that came up, and it was a telephone-handled call. So I was like, look, I'm gonna handle this call on my way to my next call, and that way by the time I wrap this up, I'm already where I need to be, and I can just jump the next call too. And it was just an attempt to contact. So it was a call from an uh, I think it was sh I don't know, somewhere up north, maybe Chicago or something like that. Police department, just looking to talk to these people. So I I I was like, you know what, I'm gonna handle that call. I jump on. I was like, they were like, hey, we need you to go to the house and just attempt to contact them and tell them to call detective whatever. And and I was like, okay. So I walk up, knock on the door, someone answers, and I'm like, hey, I'm Deputy Lively with the Volusia County Sheriff's Office. Uh I need you to call detective whoever. Here's his number. You guys have a great day. I turn around and I am walking back out to my car and I hear this blood curdling scream. And I was like, something's not right on that. And at the same time, my sergeant calls me on the radio and went, Did you just go to that call? And I was like, Yeah, why? And he goes, That was a death notification. And and who I you know, these people, their daughter had been involved in a murder suicide with her husband. And and my sergeant pulls up behind my patrol car, and he's like, We don't handle calls like that because we want to make sure we have the resources here, like the chaplain, and you know, and he was going through all these other resources, and I was like, What is a chaplain gonna do here? Like this is like you know, this is heavy duty stuff, like and so as a chaplain, can you explain a little bit about like how your role plays in all of this? Because I've dealt with you guys and I had no idea.

Jared Altic 4:16

So I actually teach death notifications at our police academy, and uh, and it's something that I've done, goodness. I don't I used to keep track, and so I'm in the hundreds now of death notifications. And so so the way a chaplain can be used is that um the officers the officers have a lot that I can't do. They have a lot of their job I don't want to do. I'm not a sworn officer.

Josh 4:48

Right.

Jared Altic 4:48

Uh but I've been doing funerals and grief counseling for years, for for you know, probably 20 plus years when I started, I'm over 30 years now. And and so, so I've been through this and and I've had specific training on how to do death notifications because you can't really do a good death notification, but you sure can't, you sure can do a bad one.

Josh 5:14

Yep. I've done that.

Jared Altic 5:15

And there are all kinds of ways to confuse the situation. The example I always use is if you go up to the house and tell them that that you know Bob died, well, I'll guarantee you that family has a Bob scene, you're a Bob June, you're a Bob the Third, and another guy named John that they call Bob just for fun.

Josh 5:35

Right.

Jared Altic 5:36

And and so you could you could traumatize someone even beyond the trauma that they will naturally go through by confusing who is actually dead and and in what circumstances and that kind of thing. And so clear communication and compassionate communication, and then helping to bridge the gap from they are utterly alone and have just heard the worst information that they'll ever hear, the worst news that they'll ever, ever encounter. Getting from that moment of loneliness to whatever their support network is. That could be friends, family, um, you know, maybe they have church or some sort of religious, they got a they got a pastor or a rabbi or something. Um, maybe, maybe they have a psychologist, maybe, maybe they have a neighbor. I had that one time where it was the neighbor who was the long-term helper for that person.

Josh 6:33

Wow.

Jared Altic 6:33

But getting them from absolutely alone to what is their long-term help, their support network, getting people from that, you know, bridging that gap is crucial. And so you can teach police officers to do this. And I that's what I do. I at the police academy, I teach a class on how to do this. But that being said, here in Kansas City, I tell them, look, if I'm on call, if I'm the chaplain on call, call me out. I will make the knock for you. I will, I will do the notification, I'll knock on the door, I will ask, you know, who are you? You know, because we'll know we know who we're looking for. We know who we know who died.

Josh 7:13

Right.

Saying It Clearly When Someone Dies

Jared Altic 7:13

So I'm gonna confirm, are we at the right location? Is this the person I'm trying to talk to? I am not gonna notify a 12-year-old.

Josh 7:21

Right.

Jared Altic 7:21

I need to talk to an adult. Um, I need to make sure that we can bridge any language barriers. I'm I'm going to clarify who the deceased is to them. Do you have a son named such and such, born on this date, uh, whatever the circumstance may be? And and then I'm gonna rip the band-aid off and tell them your son died today. I'm not gonna say he's missing, he passed away, he's not with us anymore, because that confuses it.

Josh 7:51

Right.

Jared Altic 7:51

And so, and so I'm gonna get right to the point, and I am going to rip the band-aid off, and then I am going to work. I'm going to engage them and work to move them toward their long-term support. Now, I have had people slam the door in my face. I mean, that that has happened. Um, it's never we've had we it hasn't happened to me personally, but we've had another chaplain who had a gun pointed in his face. Um we've had all kinds of reactions. Uh, a lot of times it's overwhelming grief and shock, and we move in to try to make sure there's not going to be a health emergency. And and if we're sure they're stable and if we can have some assurance that they're moving on toward friends and family and other people who can help. You know, a friend, friend, family, faith leader, that's a good way, a little mnemonic device to remember it. Uh, if we can get them to a friend of family or a faith leader uh person that they can then be in good hands to get to the next day. Um, that's important. Uh we usually have to communicate, okay, well, what's because it's not always our agency that handled the death. Sometimes we're notifying for somewhere else, right? Just like your situation. And so we need to get phone numbers. Um, if they need to move a body in or out of the country or from one state to the next state, and there's transportation involved, or if they just need to go get the body, and and really they don't go get the body anymore, but you know, you'd have the body moved to their funeral home. Um, but if they are, you know, having to do some logistics, that's important to talk about. And there's a small list of other things that that we would be concerned about. But that's something that I can step to the front and handle this and engage these people and juggle all of these sensitive things. And my officers can stand there and look pretty. And and it's not that it's not shocking or difficult for them, but having to tell someone that their 16-year-old didn't come home last night because they were killed on the highway by a wrong way driver, right? You don't want to have to do that, and then also do all the other things that police officers have to do.

Shock, Safety, And Support Networks

Josh 10:02

Right. And and so, yes. And like you were saying, because this is something I wind up preaching a lot in my sermons, it just comes out naturally, is we get so comfortable in life and and what you were just saying, that we don't realize that every single one of us, our entire life, can be flipped upside down with one phone call, with one door knock. And and I I just don't think we as people do a good job of like you just said, a 16-year-old hit and killed because of some not even anything they were doing wrong. Nope. And and I go, and as someone in your position, you're the one delivering that news. So you're the one that people are going to immediately I don't want to say aim their emotion at, but I mean that's the easiest way.

Jared Altic 10:48

That's accurate.

Josh 10:49

You know, that's accurate. You know, and and go even though you may not have known these people, you're gonna take the brunt of it. And that like how do you handle that? Like, I know but getting them to that support, but in that moment, especially, how are you handling because you're a pastor as well.

Jared Altic 11:11

Right.

Josh 11:12

Like you're not just so right.

Jared Altic 11:14

So I'm a I've been a pastor, uh, been at the church I'm at now for over 25 years. Congratulations. And I've been in ministry since since I was a senior in high school. Then I went to Baba College and and all that. So I've been involved in in ministry for over 30 years.

Josh 11:29

That's awesome.

Jared Altic 11:29

And so some of how you handle a crisis like that is conditioning. Um, it is easier to go through a crisis that you've got a prior experience with than to go through something for the first time.

Josh 11:44

Right.

Jared Altic 11:44

And so, like I said, I did funerals for 30 years. I I was I was have been around death. I have seen dead bodies, I have been in the room, in the hospital room, and people have taken their last breath. I I have seen the dismembered bodies of car wrecks, I've I've I've seen all of that stuff already. Um, I've I've been at suicides, I've I've you know, I've I've done all of this enough times that I'm not going through it for the first time. Now that's not the only way to be traumatized, but that is that is a profound one, you know, to have experienced something bad for the first time. And so, and so dealing with grieving people through working funerals is also, you know, a a way that I'm familiar with this stuff. I am 49 years old, and and that is a different place in life than my 25 or 30 year old officers.

Josh 12:43

Right.

Jared Altic 12:44

Um I I've I've you know, I I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two.

Josh 12:50

Right.

Bearing The Brunt And Building Resilience

Jared Altic 12:50

And so and so there's a difference just in my stage of life. And then also, um, I don't know how familiar you or your audience are with an ACES score, A C E, that's your adverse childhood experiences score. It's sometimes used when you maybe go to a psychologist, they'll do this as a um yeah, what's the word I'm looking for? With when you're just getting introduced to them an intake, it's an intake test where it's just 10 questions. During your childhood, did you go through any of these 10 bad things? And they give you a score one out of 10. It's very simple. But it's the 10 most common bad experiences a child can go through. And those 10 are pretty gruesome bad stuff. And if you have a higher score, even a middling score, a four, five, six out of ten, that can affect you for the rest of your life. Uh it can, it can literally put you in a higher risk for things like cancer, let alone mental health problems or something like that. Uh, those childhood experiences hurt you. I have a score of zero. And so I I had a very safe childhood, very loving, supporting family. And so there are some ways in which just my upbringing puts me in a slightly better position to take some of these things. And some people say, Oh, no, no, no. You need to have have been roughed up so you know what it's like. Uh, I don't think so. I think as a child, it's better for a child to be safe and secure. 100%. Um, you know, i it it's it's a it's a weird justification because you hear this sometimes from parents who are getting divorced. Like, well, now that we my kid has gone through this, it'll make them tougher. No, it doesn't. It makes them wounded.

Josh 14:39

But see, it's the same, and and I've never even thought about it like this. Um, but it's the same thing, like with Christians. We want this nasty, gritty, God save me from you know, crack behind the building testimony where I sit here and go, no, no, no, for my children, here here's the testimony I want. I was born and raised in church, and you know, Jesus just grabbed a hold of me and I never left.

Jared Altic 15:02

Yeah, yeah. Your kids, under the best of circumstances, are still sinners. Right. And and I like to say that as sinners, we are all kind of like the old um cartoon character Wally Coyote, always blowing himself up on accident.

Josh 15:18

Right.

Jared Altic 15:18

He can he can be standing on top of a pile of dynamite with a TNT plunger and he's about to push it down because he doesn't realize where he's at, and he blows himself up. That's how we are as humans. We don't need the spiritual enemies to trip us up. We can trip ourselves up.

Josh 15:37

Amen.

Jared Altic 15:37

And so, and so and so if we can destroy our own lives under the best of circumstances, why put a kid behind the eight ball or or why excuse the fact that they were traumatized or saw terrible things or had adults bail them during their childhood years?

Josh 15:54

Absolutely.

Experience, ACES Scores, And Trauma

Jared Altic 15:55

Why excuse that? That wasn't any kind of advantage, that was a disadvantage. And so I've I've benefited from having very good Christian parents who protected me from a lot of that stuff. And that doesn't make me bulletproof now, but but it does make me a little more resilient than I would be otherwise. And so I still have to I still have to guard myself. To go back to your original question, I have to talk to people. I tell my cops all the time, you need to go talk to people, you need to to sort this out, uh, you need to unpack and unload these things. You can't bury them. They'll be like zombies. They will stay, they will, they will not remain buried. They'll crawl back out and come get you when you're when you're least when it's least convenient. Right. So so you need to go talk to people, and that's what I have to do. Uh I have a group of people around the country, some here locally, some far away. And I can go through a difficult call. Uh, we we've had just the last few weeks, we had a dead baby call. We had a a Domp call where an individual died alone and we didn't find them for a length of time, and the body was in a bad state. We we those those have all just happened recently. So after those calls, I I clear that call and then I make a phone call to people and just say, hey, here's what's going on. This is what happened, this is what I saw, this is what I felt. I think I'm normal, I think I feel okay, and they'll ask me questions and they'll ask me, okay, well, since that call, um, you know, you know, how are you eating, how are you sleeping, what's your baseline, you know, they'll check on me. And so that's just what I want my police officers to do, so I need to do that also.

Josh 17:36

Right.

Jared Altic 17:37

And so it's a combination of my background, my place in life right now, the experiences I've had, and the techniques I currently use and keep on using to try to stay healthy.

Josh 17:49

And I and I think that's honestly whether we're talking about cops or whether we're talking about even I think more so with men, um, just in general, where I go, we're so afraid of looking weak, or we're so afraid of being the weak one that we do that. And and this is something, again, that it comes up more Sundays than I want to. When we when our people are coming into church and everyone's like, hey, how are you doing? Everyone knows the right things to say. And and I go, but we're lying. And some of you, you were just arguing in the car in the parking lot, and then you walk in, you're like, Oh, everything's great. And it's like, you know, you're stripping all of the power away from this when you're afraid to let people into that.

Jared Altic 18:36

Yeah, in church, we need to have a humility that we are not a country club. We are more like a hospital. Yeah. We are we are beggars telling other beggars where to find bread.

Speaker 1 18:49

Absolutely.

Jared Altic 18:50

And so, so get over yourself and get over the nonsense that you are are above it all because you're not. You are hurting. There are people in your family who are actively causing you pain right now. Um, it's okay. We didn't ask you to be perfect. We already had someone who was perfect, and he died on the cross for us. And so, and so we we don't need you to be perfect. Uh, we need you to be earnestly seeking him with everything you have.

Josh 19:20

Yeah.

Jared Altic 19:21

But but but we don't need you to be perfect.

Josh 19:23

Because, like you said, that's like you making that phone call when you clear that call, that allows you the opportunity to process and move through. I'm not saying like immediately you're all good. But I you know you know what it's like to walk into the house and you have all of this on your mind, and now okay, now you gotta give everything for the family. Like, how do you make that switch?

Jared Altic 19:50

When I walk into my own home, you mean?

Josh 19:52

Yes, sir.

Don’t Bury It: Debrief And Talk

Jared Altic 19:53

Yes, yeah. So so my kids are all reaching adulthood. I still have one in high school. I have five kids. And um, I don't know if I've always done it successfully. Um it's it's a lot, and and really I think I'm talking more about just being a church pastor. Um you know, I'm a I'm a I'm I'm a minister in a church and I work six days a week and and sometimes it's 10 or 12 hour days.

Josh 20:21

And no, no, it's just the 30 minutes you're preaching, right?

Jared Altic 20:24

Oh, for mercy's sakes, that's such a joke. Oh my goodness. The the the 30 or 45 minutes that I'm preaching on Sunday morning is is the closest I come to vacation uh a lot of the time. Because I love I love preaching the gospel or teaching a Sunday school class. Yeah, but but the rest of the time it's very difficult and it takes away all my emotional energy. I am at the point of decision-making fatigue. I I come home and I'm exhausted. And I at times I've I've still been good to my family, but wasn't good to myself, and my my weight would get out of control, or or just my health generally would be bad.

Josh 21:09

Yeah.

Jared Altic 21:10

And so so that's that's been a an ongoing thing. I'm actually here, I mean I'm 49 years old and and I'm probably the healthiest I've been in my adult life right now.

Josh 21:22

Um congratulations.

Jared Altic 21:24

Well, uh, you know, praise the Lord because because I I I don't know that that it was I I don't know I that I should get too much credit for it. It has been a matter of giving things that I did not want to let go of over to God and saying, you know what? I don't have to be the person in the driver's seat. Um I don't need God as my co pilot. I need him in control, and I just need to get out of the cockpit and go back to the back of the plane and fold my hands and let him take over.

Josh 21:58

Amen. Yeah.

Jared Altic 21:59

And so And so my effort to control everything, my effort to to make things look good, I think have only hurt. And as I've matured, I think I've learned I've through you know discipling, through godly mentors and and good lay leadership here in the church, I think they have have taught me and had given me permission to let go of some of that and to be, like we were saying a few moments ago, to be more transparent, to be more humble, to be more honest about our real position here in life.

Men, Church, And Honest Community

Josh 22:33

Yeah, because again, at 3 a.m., you know, you you go to these calls. You don't always have like like my wife is that person I go to. And you know, she does amazing at it and all of that. But like, especially when I was a deputy, it's 3 30, 4 o'clock in the morning. Like, I'm not making that call home. And and I had a really hard time with, you know, because the guys you work with, you all have the same mentality. You know, so it very much becomes bury it, keep it buried as long as you can. And like you said a little bit ago, what we don't realize is is it comes back in ways, one, you weren't expecting, and two, when you were not expecting it. Because as long as you're strong enough to hold it, you can, but it's when you're not strong enough anymore, and that little what do you want for dinner question comes up, and next thing you know, it's a three-day argument because you're actually trying to deal with this stress and trauma and all of this from back here. And and you know, you mentioned mentoring and like I think that's something we're missing nowadays. Like discipleship and and discipleship is that it's messy, it's awkward, it's you know, dirty, it's beautiful, and it's amazing. And I just think too many of us move past that discipleship process.

Jared Altic 24:00

And you know, we we just want to get the get out of hell free card. Yeah, and then and then move on with our life and muddle through. And that's a cry and shame because God has made you a new creation and he has has given you the opportunity, even on this side of glory, he's given you an opportunity to to really have a new start at life. And it's not that everything will go away, you'll still bear the consequences of past sins and past brokenness and broken relationships, but there are things that can be renewed, and there are things that can be um, you know, old wounds and calluses that can be made new uh and and healed. And so, so I I just yeah, it it it we we shortchange ourselves by ignoring Christian disciplines and that kind of thing. We're saved by grace, but but and God gave us an opportunity to grow and to to live a life different than the way this world lives it.

Josh 25:00

And I I just think so many of us don't look at that as a starting point, we look at that as the final point. Like I would remember taking people out to the jail, you know, and it's like you're dropping them off, and I mean it got to a point with some of them where it was like, all right, I'll see you next week. Thanks for the ride back out here. You know, it's like you know, you don't have to make the same choices, right? Like you can do different, you know, and unfortunately, you know, in in prison reform and all that is is a totally different topic. But I mean, when you're talking about 75% rate of recidism, and you know, three-quarters of the people are coming back, obviously, but the church, like you just said, the church is the same way.

Jared Altic 25:44

Because well, and so and so are my cops. Um they they just assume that the job is supposed to beat them down and make them cynical and steal their joy, and it didn't. And it'll just cost, cost, cost. And a lot of them do feel called to it. Because the ones who don't feel called to it will will will find their call, even go somewhere else.

Josh 26:08

Right.

Jared Altic 26:08

But but the ones who feel called to it, they're like, well, this is my lot in life. I am going to do this for 20 or 25 years, and then I'll retire with a good pension and die young.

Josh 26:20

Yeah.

Jared Altic 26:20

And and probably go through two or three marriages and be estranged from my kids and not have any close friends. And that's what my lot in life is. That's how that was my effort, you know, my the my reward for my efforts to to keep civilization on track.

Josh 26:37

Right.

Jared Altic 26:38

And and that doesn't have to be that way. And so as a chaplain, that's the other thing I do. I'm a one is that crisis response on scene at three in the morning for those citizens, uh, crime victims and family of crime victims. But the other hat that I wear is for the police officers.

Josh 26:56

Right.

Home Life, Health, And Letting God Lead

Jared Altic 26:57

And so as a volunteer chaplain, I go into the station several times a week. Uh, I am doing ride-alongs. I'm doing like 150 to 180 roll calls every year. Uh, we have three um three patrol divisions and three ships. And so, you know, that you know, I'm getting into those ship into each roll call a time or two every month, basically.

Josh 27:22

Right.

Jared Altic 27:22

But I've been doing this for 10 years. And so there's officers who who I'm the only one who keeps coming back and checking on them again and again. Lots of people on this dream tour wherever will check on them once. But but the chaplain has been in their car, he knows their supervisors, he is familiar with department policy, he understands the procedures, he he knows them both in uniform and out of uniform. And if they needed to talk, they have EAP, they can go to their family doctor, but they might come talk to the chaplain. And and that includes the ones that are not remotely religious.

Josh 28:04

Right.

Jared Altic 28:05

Uh, some of my best friends at the department are are convinced that they are atheists. Now, I don't know if they really are atheists. Uh, they seem to talk about God more than the religious cops do. And and I'm not sure that God actually believes in atheists. So uh I I I think that they think they're not religious, right? But they do want someone who understands. Now what so the chaplain does that where I connect with them and offer that to them um as a as a ministry, as something I do for free.

Josh 28:40

Yes, and and for people listening, if you don't like unfortunately, being a cop is really hard because unless you're talking to another cop, you already know people aren't getting it. Because the things you're dealing with, the things you're seeing, the people you're around, like you are surrounded by evil, 12 hours, eight hours, depending on you know the department, but every from the time you go 10.8 till you go 10 7 at night, like you you just it's something you can't really even put into words. So to have a resource where you have that outlet, like that that's huge, like huge.

Jared Altic 29:20

Somebody somebody who knows the jargon, like you just threw out a couple tin codes. Um to to have somebody that understands the language and has smelled what you've smelled, seen what you've seen, um, that decomp I was talking about a minute ago. I hope your audience is okay with me saying that. No, yeah, but but but it's someone who died, they've been dead for a week, and they died in front of their space heater. And so they were pretty well cooked, and that house, you could smell that house from down the block.

Josh 29:51

Yeah.

Jared Altic 29:52

And and the family's desperate to get in there now that they know their loved one has died, they want to get in there and you just can't. And you have to tell them as they weep and wail that they can't go in, but you can smell it wafting out of the house. You know that that's not right good or safe or right for them to go in there, and it's a death investigation. And so there is some consideration where, hey, this body does have to have a post-mortem, and we don't want people in there slobbering and crying and touching whatever. So there's so many factors to consider, but you're dealing with stuff that that if you've not stood ankle deep in the snow with people crying and snot running down their faces, and the smell of a deep decomposing corpse wafting out of the front door, if you've not been in that, you don't know.

Josh 30:43

Right.

Jared Altic 30:44

And everyone who has been in it knows that's a unique situation that just a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of people will ever experience in their whole life.

Josh 30:52

Yeah.

Jared Altic 30:52

And and if you've not been there, you don't understand.

Josh 30:56

And you don't want to be able to do that.

Jared Altic 30:57

And so to have Right. So but to have a helper who has been there, I think is the secret sauce. I think that is the the the the trick that that makes a connection. And and I man, if I had 10,000 more police chaplains, I I'd have a good start.

Mentoring, Discipleship, And Renewal

Josh 31:17

Well, and let me let me ask, because that does like go into this last thing, you know, because I know time is ticking. But what can people because we like to end every episode with a challenge for people? Like, here's one thing you can do, you know, to change. So when it comes to this, all right, and I know like, especially for law enforcement right now, with the defund police and and all of that craziness. What is something that people can do who aren't, you know, because for to be a chaplain, I mean, there's there's training that has I know, you know, here you you had to have an MDiv and you know there was a lot that went into it. Um, but what are things that people can do? Not just like a one-time, like, hey, we brought cookies up. Because I'll go ahead and tell y'all no one's eaten those cookies because we don't know if you're poisoning them.

Jared Altic 32:10

Like oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's an unsealed container of food, that's probably gonna end up with the trash can.

Josh 32:16

Yeah. But what is something that people can do? Because we're not in the fire department, no one likes us, you know. Like what are something that someone could do to go, hey, I'm gonna make a couple levels, a couple levels for you.

Jared Altic 32:30

One, if for your police specifically, go ask them. Go ask them what do you need? Because some people will donate like a tin of popcorn or they'll bake cookies or whatever, and that's nice, that's appreciated. Come still dislike that. I mean, thank you. Uh thank you. Hey, you thought of me. I appreciate that. Um it's not very engaged though, because what if your local department, especially small departments, and most police departments are small departments? Uh, not everybody can be NYPD and LAPD and whatever. Most departments are tiny. And so, have you asked them, what do you need? What if what if instead of giving popcorn once a year, you spent the entire year raising some money, a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, and you bought something for them that they actually need. Some departments, they it it is incumbent on the officer himself to buy his own body armor.

Josh 33:27

Oh man, that's crazy now.

Jared Altic 33:28

That can that can be yeah, that can be eight hundred dollars for one plate. You know one in front, one in back. So, so what if you your your small department only hires a person once every year or two? So, what if you raise enough money so that every new hire had those rifle plates in their vest?

Josh 33:44

Right.

Jared Altic 33:45

That that would be a meaningful contribution to the peace of mind of that officer and their families.

Josh 33:51

Yep.

Jared Altic 33:51

What if instead you've got some young uh female officers with fam with children and what they need is help with daycare? What if you offered a three-month daycare um uh scholarship and donated that to the department? What if you raised some money to outfit a vehicle or a radio or something else that that could be upgraded or purchased that can't normally, you know, they had to trim the budget this year, and so they're gonna lose this, but you're going to pay for that. You cannot guess at what those specific needs might be unless you go ask.

Josh 34:30

Right.

Jared Altic 34:30

And so, and so every small town in America can go do that and say, hey, you I know the town budget, the city budget, the county budget, they they have to cut back here, but our church will raise $3,000 and you guys can have this piece of equipment or or whatever, because this is what you've asked for, and we're gonna partner with you on that. That would be a way to show you actually support the police.

Josh 34:56

Right.

Policing Doesn’t Have To Steal Joy

Jared Altic 34:56

Um, another thing you can do at a more uh you know, 30,000 foot level is are you willing to love people who are who are unlovable? Because a cop, even though we like the idea of cops and knowing that we're safe and secure, a lot of times when you actually meet a cop, they're grumpy and mean and not very nice to you. And and my question is, do they have to be friendly or doing you a favor or cutting you a break in order for you to love them? Or can you love the unlovely? Can you love people who have not deserved it yet, like God loved us?

Josh 35:32

Amen.

Jared Altic 35:33

And so I go into the station and I see cops that are some of the most wonderful people you'd ever meet in the world. I also see cops that are not very good coworkers, I see cops that are not very good family members, right? I see cops that are just difficult to get along with, or at least they're at a stage in their life right now where they're difficult. And so, can you love people who are unlovable? A cop will push you away to see if you can be pushed away. And so don't be surprised that you engage the cops and they're and they're kind of unfriendly to you. Sometimes they're so used to being treated badly, they just like to not have to go through the whole dance. They just want to get it over with. Which side are you on?

Josh 36:14

Yeah.

Jared Altic 36:14

Are you talking nice to me now, but are you going to run away as soon as things get ugly? So they'll try to push you away to see if you can be pushed away. Can you love those people? Now that whether that applies to cops or or whoever, I think we're called to love our enemies. And and that's what Jesus taught us to do. And sometimes our enemies are people who live in the same town, people who we need, people who we depend on, but they're not very nice to us.

Josh 36:43

Right.

Jared Altic 36:44

So can't we love those people? I think that's a question we all need to ask ourselves.

Riding Along: Caring For Cops

Josh 36:49

And there you guys go. Those are the two challenges you have this week. Like, and actually do it because it does you no good to have information and not do anything with it. But at this time, Jared, like like we discussed, I got a couple of questions. Now, I don't want you to think too much into them. And like I said, I'm ready. Some of them were based off of just research, so you may not even be familiar with either of them. But being from Kansas City, some people will erroneously believe that you guys are the barbecue capital of the world. Now, I would argue that the South just in general is. I know most people would throw Texas in that, or the Carolinas. Um, but I did find these two restaurants, and and I just want to know if you had to pick, would it be Joe's Kansas City or Arthur Bryant's?

Jared Altic 37:39

Oh, leaving out gates.

Josh 37:41

Okay. Or a third, okay, other, yeah.

Jared Altic 37:43

Yeah, or or Jet's back. Yeah, we have we have uh a surprisingly large number of fantastic barbecue restaurants. And and specifically, um, Arthur Bryant's invented burnt burnt ends. If you've ever had those little chunks of meat, delicious heaven. Those burnt ends were invented decades and decades and decades ago at a restaurant in Kansas City, Missouri. And so, and that restaurant still stands. It's amazing, it's fantastic. They used to have a second location out by where I lived, and man alive, I I could go there every time. So, so it's pretty good. But honestly, if I have somebody from out of town and I'm gonna take them to a restaurant, I'll take them to Joe's KC. Uh Joe's KC, they have multiple locations also, but that is amazing barbecue.

Josh 38:32

Right.

Jared Altic 38:32

Um it it it we didn't invent barbecue uh here in Kansas City. We just perfected it.

Josh 38:39

I I will give you the burn in's all day. Like, man, because that was what they gave you just when you were standing in line, right?

Jared Altic 38:45

Like back in the Yeah, oh it was free handouts back in the day. Now now it's one of the more expensive items on the menu.

Josh 38:52

And it's it's funny because brisket used to be a throwaway piece anyway. You know?

Jared Altic 38:56

Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Josh 38:58

And then, all right, so when we look at chaos management, you have five kids, like you said. Yeah. What is harder? Dealing with five rookie cops or five kids?

Jared Altic 39:13

Oh, I'm tempted to say the cops, but the kids are harder. Um the cops ultimately are adults, and and as difficult as they can be, as difficult to love as they can be sometimes, uh, they're adults and they're working a job and they'll go home. And some of them go home and they're completely different people when they're at home, and that's a good thing. And so, so I I it's not really that difficult to work with work with cops, and I love police officers. Your kids, your kids are tough because you have so much invested in them. I mean, it it is your personal legacy at stake. And so you want them to turn out well. And the frustrating thing is you might have a kid that you're like, hey, you know, the two of us apparents have got this figured out and we're clicking and we're getting traction. And so you turn to your second child, and the second child, you do all the same things, you use the same tone of voice, the same parenting techniques, the same rules, but for whatever reason, you start losing traction and it's not connecting, and you don't know why. And it's so it's like, what's going on here? And you thought you were a brilliant parent until you had child number two. And and then you have three and four, my first four were boys, and I thought we'd seen the entire spectrum of personalities and needs and responses to us without wow, we are parenting experts. And then child number five came and she was a girl. And I find out that my boy spectrum is way over on one end, and she's an island all by herself, and everything we thought we knew was was challenged. It didn't go out the window, but but it was severely challenged because because it is so getting stuff wrong.

Josh 40:55

Yeah.

The Calls You Can Smell

Jared Altic 40:55

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so ultimately, your children, that is a much bigger challenge. It is the most difficult thing you'll ever do in your life. It is the most expensive thing emotionally, financially that you'll ever do in your life, but there's nothing more rewarding. I think that it is ultimately a mistake to deliberately choose to be childless. If you if you are childless because of circumstances, that's one thing. But but if you're like, no, I I am married, I am healthy, I could have children, I just don't want to. Right, I think that is something you should pray more about. But I I think that we're designed by a creator to be procreators.

Josh 41:41

Oh, yeah.

Jared Altic 41:42

And and and it is the most meaningful thing you will ever do. And ultimately, I had someone say to me one time, you know, they wish they had had kids because their Mercedes could not hug them back when they were 80. And I'm like, wow. True, wow, that is true. And so so if you want nice things, don't have kids or pets. But having nice things is not the be all end all that people make it out to be. Having kids is is absolutely profound. And there's a British comedian, um what is his name? He does talk shows and game shows, and but he just recently had kids in the last few years, and he's just in the last couple of years started talking about how he um how how his view of having kids is changed his whole world. He thought he thought he was doing things smart, but but really what he found out was he was playing at the low stakes.

Josh 42:40

Oh, yeah.

Jared Altic 42:40

By having by having children, he's now engaged in something meaningful that will last beyond his life. Yeah, definitely. What is that comedian's name? You'll have to add it in post.

Josh 42:51

I will, because I'm not 100% sure.

Jared Altic 42:54

Yeah, oh my goodness, but but that that's profound, and I think that's what we all experience once we have kids.

Josh 42:59

Who do you think is the best fictional TV cop or movie?

Jared Altic 43:05

Oh I don't know. I do watch some cop TV shows and and define best, because cops come in a thousand varieties and the cop that is best at catching bad guys or stopping the terrorist or crashing down through the the skylight as he repels out of the helicopter is not necessarily the best cop at investigating a crime or or keeping the peace in a small town. Those are different skill sets.

Josh 43:37

I agree.

Jared Altic 43:37

And so there have been famous cops that may not impress you immediately. They're not going to be played by the action hero, but but maybe go all the way back to really old school, like uh Andy Griffith in the Andy Griffith show. He was a sheriff. Yeah. Um, and oh police work was not one percent of that show. But Maybe that meant he was such a good cop that police work didn't have to be the main focus.

Josh 44:05

Yeah.

Jared Altic 44:06

You know. So so yeah, there is so depending on which category, you're gonna get a different answer for what category of cop you're talking about.

Two Challenges For Listeners

Josh 44:13

See, and I give you credit for even having all of those answers because that was one of those things I just I never could after being in law enforcement. I I just my my wife is really big into crime shows and and I know when we were emailing back and forth, we were talking about it. I can't watch it. Like if it's the realistic ones, I'll get nightmares because you know it I've been on those calls. Um you know, and then if it's the fictional ones, you know, the law and order and stuff like that, I I get angry because I'm like, that's not how that works. That's not how that works.

Jared Altic 44:46

They get so many things wrong. Yeah, yeah, I'm not even a cop. And I look at that, I just um it's my dad worked for the airline growing up, he's an aircraft mechanic. And so when we'd watch a TV show or a movie with an airplane in it, he's like, That's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. You know, the exterior was this type of plane, but the interior is a different type of plane. Yeah, he he just he just noticed all these things. I'm that way now with anything law enforcement related, where even though I don't work in it exactly, I work alongside of it, and I'm just like, wow, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. And so a lot of shows I just don't really watch them anymore.

Josh 45:18

Yeah, it just it it I don't know. I go, well, that's a violation of the civil liberty, like that's a violation of rights. Like you just threw your whole case is gone now.

Jared Altic 45:30

Yeah, that evidence is not admissible. Yeah.

Josh 45:32

Right. But Jared, I thank you so much. As uh what is it? I I know we have Hey Chaplin podcasts. Is there anything else?

Jared Altic 45:41

Uh heychaplin.com, H-E-Y, Hey Chaplin. It'll be on the show notes. That'll take that'll take you to a page where you can link and find the podcast all over. If I'd I'd really like to have people give it a try. It's it's made for police officers. Uh, but I think a lot of people listen in because police work is interesting and the kind of things we talk about are applicable. If you can go through a difficult call as a police officer and hear me interview police officers from around the world, talk about their difficult calls. Yeah, if if you can learn something from that and then apply it to your own career, to your own life, uh, I think that that's valuable. And so I get a lot of people who listen in to Hey Chaplin. It's a once-a-week show, there's no commercials, it is a free service that I provide because I want police officers to be encouraged.

Josh 46:33

Yeah. And they need it. So yeah. Well, I appreciate so much of your time. Um it was really like from listening to your past couple episodes to actually getting to talk to you, it was surreal for me. Um and and I go, I don't I'm always starstruck when I get to like talk to somebody where I'm like, oh, I heard their podcast. And and so, you know, I apologize for any awkwardness.

Jared Altic 47:00

Um, no, no, you did a great job. Yeah.

Josh 47:03

So until next time, thank you for listening. We love you, we thank you, and we can't do this without you. See you guys later.