#224: Why Imperfect Recordings Feel More Alive | Abby Griffin on Creative Truth (Recording Studio Rockstars)

What if the best mix isn’t the cleanest, but the truest? In this podcast takeover, Lij Shaw (Recording Studio Rockstars) dives into a standout conversation with engineer, songwriter, and producer-in-the-making Abby Griffin to explore how “being the weird girl” can be a creative superpower, and why the moments you capture now may matter more than perfection later. From choir training and vocal anatomy to tape love and AI stems, Abby brings a sharp, generous lens to making music that feels alive.

The conversation starts with foundations you can use today: training your ear with tools like Pink Trombone, choosing mics for the job (vintage U87 clarity vs 414 warmth), and recording drums the simple way, two mics, tight kit, one great bar, and tasteful overdubs for fills and transitions. Abby maps out a low-stress workflow for song-first productions, where loops carry pocket, and a click becomes optional. Along the way, we swap gross mic tales and gig-life realities with a wink and a wince.

Songwriting sits at the heart of everything. Abby’s “song seeds” method, notes app phrases, moleskin pages, and free-writing, pairs with alternate tunings to break muscle memory and unlock lines you can’t play in standard tuning. They unpack “show vs tell” with Taylor Swift’s plain-spoken detail, Shakespeare’s sonnets, and the poem Two-Headed Calf. The aim isn’t to prescribe feelings; it’s to stage scenes so the listener writes their own. A moving centrepiece: Abby’s family recording made days before her grandmother passed, a time capsule that proves how capturing the chapter can matter more than polish.

Tech doesn’t replace taste; it supports it. AI stem separation shines in pre-production and post, voice-memo overdubs turn ideas into demos, and tape, hardware or plugin adds character where it counts. Pat Metheny’s advice threads through it all: be yourself from day one and let the work find its people over time. Abby’s take is simple and brave: match your freak, protect your rituals, and put the moment first.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Listen to Recording Studio Rockstars

Follow Abbie Griffin

Chapters

• 1:21 Festive Intro And Episode Setup
• 3:17 Why This Highlight: Abby Griffin
• 4:00 Abby’s Core Advice: Embrace Weird
• 4:01 Sponsors And Course Plugs
• 5:34 Meet Abby: Studies, Influences, Goals
• 10:27 Touring, Cities, And Finding A Scene
• 11:50 Choir Lessons And Vocal Anatomy
• 13:32 Pink Trombone And Training The Ear
• 15:42 Groove First: Minimal Drum Recording
• 17:15 Looping Drums Without A Drummer
• 19:53 Growing Up With DAWs And Mackie
• 21:52 Vintage U87s Versus Modern Mics
• 25:04 Mic Choices For Voice And Guitar
• 27:50 Budget Studios And Smart Upgrades
• 30:10 DIY Sounds And Character Over Cost
• 32:08 Gross Mic Tales And Live Realities
• 34:14 Strength, Yoga, And Creative Focus
• 36:59 Burnout, Routines, And Resetting
• 40:23 School: Finding Production, Not Tech
• 43:51 Bands, Goals, And Group Dynamics
• 47:25 Songwriting Roots: Beatles To Taylor
• 52:12 Show Vs Tell And Lyric Imagery
• 57:19 Pat Metheny: Be Yourself Over Time
• 1:02:33 Capturing Family And A Final Take
• 1:06:50 Rituals, Notes, And Song Seeds
• 1:11:02 Tunings, Voice Memos, And Overdubs
• 1:14:48 AI, Stems, And The Modern Producer
• 1:19:26 Tape Flavor, Plugins, And Process
• 1:22:49 Five And Ten Years: Choosing A Life
• 1:26:13 Final Advice: Match Your Freak
• 1:27:49 Where To Find Abby And Closing

Transcript

Marc Matthews: 0:53

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews. Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for music creation and production. Whether you're crafting your first track or refining your mixing skills, join me each week for expert interviews, practical tutorials, and insights to help you level up your music and smash it in the music industry. Let's dive in. Ho ho ho, welcome folks, to the Inside the Mix podcast. A big festive welcome to you, the new listener. And of course, a big festive welcome to the returning listeners too. This episode is the second installment of my favourite podcasts that I'm sharing with you. And this time it is my good friend Lidge Shaw at Recording Studio Rockstars. Now, Lidge featured on the podcast episode 168, and it's titled Mastering Music Production Insights and Strategies with Lydge Shaw Recording Studio Rockstars. And uh go and check that episode out because we talk about things along the lines of mixing essentials, mixed templates, creative lyric writing, effective workflow tips, and stress-free recording. And this episode I'm going to share with you a highlight, a highlighted episode, if you will, from Recording Studio Rockstars this year. The episode I'm going to share with you is episode 520 of Recording Studio Rockstars, and it's with Abby Griffin, and it's titled The Next Generation of Songwriting and Recording. In this episode, I'm reading from the description here, Abby shares her personal journey from falling in love with music, inspired by artists like Joni Mitchell and Taylor Swift, to navigating the challenges of the industry, the music industry. Abby opens up about a songwriting process, the influence of her family and life experiences, and how technology is transforming the way we create music. Most importantly, Abby emphasizes the importance of staying true to yourself, couldn't agree more, and embracing your individuality. That's enough for me, folks. So here we go. This is episode 520 of Recording Studio Rockstars, Abby Griffin, the next generation of songwriting and recording. Enjoy.

Lij Shaw: 2:58

This episode of Recording Studio Rockstars is brought to you by Isotope, Native Instruments, Atom Audio, and SAE Institute. You're hearing my voice right now, mixed through Isotope, Ozone, and Velvet on Atom Audio monitors and headphones. Make sure to get my free mixing course at Mixmasterbundle.com, and please check out our awesome sponsors using the links in the show notes. And please like and subscribe to this YouTube channel because it's a great way to help support this show. Now get ready to rock. You get to go back in time and you get to find young Abby and say, Listen, Abby, normal. I've come back to give you this one bit of advice. Here's the single most important thing you need to know to be a rock star of the studio yourself one day. What advice do you feel like you'd like to go back and give yourself if you could?

Abbie Griffin: 3:49

Be the weird girl. Embrace being the weird girl. Like they call you Abby Normal for a reason. Nobody who has ever been anything has been somebody normal. And I think like being the weird girl, you've got to really embrace that and not even let the be yourself, but be as weird as possible and have fun doing it.

Lij Shaw: 4:23

I'm Lyd Schum and this is the podcast created to help you become a rock star of the Recording Studio. From synths to strings to studio guitars, Complete 15 has it all. Native Instruments flagship bundle gives you everything you need to create pro music in any genre with cutting-edge instruments like Contact 8, Massive X, Battery, Guitar Rig, and Session Guitarist for lifelike electric and acoustic guitar parts. Use our code ROCK10 for 10% off at NativeInstruments.com or get started with Complete Start totally free. Howdy Rockstars, I'm Lyd Shaw, your host, and welcome back to Recording Studio Rockstars, bringing you into the studio to learn from recording professionals and sometimes aspiring recording professionals so that you can make your best record ever and be a rock star of the studio yourself. My guest today is Abby Griffin, an engineer, singer, guitarist, and bassist, and a student of recording arts and production at Montclair State University in New Jersey, where she studies audio engineering, post-production, and live event audio. At 22 years old, she says she's already been performing for nearly two decades. She loves to make music and has released her first record live from Oni's House, inspired by Joni Mitchell, one of an artist she's a big fan of, to quote her greatest inspiration, her musical grandmother, quote, the saddest yet happiest songbird you'll ever meet with that smile, quote. Um, I met Abby at Nam when she attended a meetup that I hosted for recording studio Rockstars. Um, we were also hosting one from working class audio and mixed down online. And um, when she came up to me and said hello, the first thing she said when she came up was that she was a fan of the podcast, and so was her dad. And I for me, it's so cool to hear that the podcast is reaching a wider and a younger audience, and it's able to inspire and help those who are just starting out in their music and audio studies and career. And today we're gonna find out what it's like to be a young student of recording, to be a musician and a songwriter. We'll find out what she's learning in school, what she thought she needed to learn, and what music means to her. We'll also discuss where she thinks music is headed from the perspective of the next generation of music makers that are going to ultimately shape the future of music. We'll also explore the rapid changes in music technology with AI and how the definition of a producer is evolving for the next generation. Please welcome Abby Griffin to Recording Studio Rockstars. Abby, are you ready to rock?

Abbie Griffin: 7:16

Yes, I am ready to rock.

Lij Shaw: 7:18

How do you feel about that? I mean, you've been listening to the podcast, and now I'm asking you personally.

Abbie Griffin: 7:23

That's kind of crazy. And on my drive down, too, I had a couple episodes playing.

Lij Shaw: 7:27

Oh, did you really? Now it's me. Do you remember who you were listening to? Um I know it's that's throwing you under the bus right there already.

Abbie Griffin: 7:34

It was like a whole, I think I listened to just the your top um couple videos. That was my first drive of um, that was like probably the first three hours of 16. So I liked camera maps.

Lij Shaw: 7:49

So you are in New Jersey, but you've come down to Nashville for a visit down here. You're going to check out some places, meet some people, and um we get to have you on the podcast, which is really cool.

Abbie Griffin: 8:00

Yeah. And I was on a little uh tour expedition. I wasn't gigging myself, but I was like managing one of my friends who's an artist. And so we went to Penn State and then we went to Oberlin College, and then from Oberlin, they went back to New York and I drove down here.

Lij Shaw: 8:16

Oh, that's cool. I've got a niece who's graduating from Oberlin, so I'll be up there for a graduation ceremony. Oh, cool, yeah. It's it's a cute little town. It's a beautiful place too, yeah. So uh why checking out all these different different stops on the way? Are they um is this like next plans for you as a student?

Abbie Griffin: 8:34

I think well, so a little bit. I am feeling a a kind of a pre-post grad dread because I've I have a lot of older friends that have like just graduated last year or maybe two years ago, and they're feeling the post grad stress, and I always try and um you know jump the gun for everything. So I'm feeling the post-grad stress when I graduate in May. Um yeah, but I'm kind of figuring out where I want to place myself, like live, and then see what kind of industries are around any place, basically. I went to Nam, California, yeah, and I went to you know, San Diego around there and LA, Anaheim, and I felt the energy there. And so this whole, you know, next semester for me, like from January to May and the summer, is for me to explore different areas to see what the music scene is all around the country. Um, maybe I kind of want to go to Spain and see how that is, European market. I don't know.

Lij Shaw: 9:53

Yeah, do you like Spanish music?

Abbie Griffin: 9:55

Yeah, and my dad speaks Spanish, and so I I taught I knew it know a little bit though.

Lij Shaw: 10:02

I'm trying to learn it a little bit because I want to do some traveling too. Yeah, exactly. You're the third person to say Duolingo is has his students I'm writing it down finally.

Abbie Griffin: 10:12

Literally, yeah, you gotta. The owl, he's a little scary. Oh, there's an owl? Yeah, he gets aggressive if you don't do your lessons. But I've been basically trying to see what kind of vibe I feel the most resonates with me because I always was a New Yorker-nothing kind of girl. And then I went to California and I'm a little uh I I think I'm questioning my New York-ness.

Lij Shaw: 10:38

You know, New York is loud and it draws a lot of attention and it's a wonderful place. But um the world is a big place and there's a lot to explore and discover. So that's pretty cool.

Abbie Griffin: 10:49

And I'm learning that. And I never really went very many places. I went a couple places in high school for choir. Like I I went to Disney, I went to Chicago, Montreal, and I loved Montreal. Chicago, not so much. Um, but I really like seeing the different types of people that are around and seeing who I resonate with and what kind of energy speaks to me the most.

Lij Shaw: 11:12

Okay, cool. So you started out, you were doing the choir thing. Um now, as a singer, uh, what kind of stuff did you feel was useful about studying vocals in that way and how has it helped you?

Abbie Griffin: 11:24

So I think I didn't realize what was helpful for me when I was going through it. Um but now looking back, I think my biggest takeaways are learning how the voice functions like physically and like how resonance works. Uh there's this one website, it was like it's like the pink something, but it you can move around the pieces of the voice. I wish I knew what the website was called, but you can like move the tongue placement and it s sounds like how it would sound in somebody's mouth. It's a it's an app. It's a website, I think.

Lij Shaw: 12:05

Wow.

Abbie Griffin: 12:05

Yeah. And it's like the pink noise.

Lij Shaw: 12:08

So if you're trying to figure out how to do a certain um vocal tone or sound, something you maybe heard before, you can go try this out.

Abbie Griffin: 12:17

Yeah. And what do you think it's called?

Lij Shaw: 12:19

Do you remember? Well, you just keep going and I'll I'll I'll like, you know. It's like the I use the power of the AI to find it as a pink tube voice website.

Abbie Griffin: 12:30

I don't know. But it looks weird. It sounds weird, and it is weird, but it's so informative on how the anatomy of the voice works and like how dropping and then moving up your larynx and then um, you know, soft palate rising, lowering, and tongue placement can all affect a vowel sound.

Lij Shaw: 12:49

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 12:50

Um, and that's really important when you're doing different genres of things. And I knew it was important when I was, you know, studying the lab.

Lij Shaw: 12:57

Pink trombone, is that it?

Abbie Griffin: 12:58

Pink trombone. Look at that.

Lij Shaw: 13:00

Amazing technology. Right? It's my new AI assistant. Yeah, yeah. And there's one another one that says uh vocaberia is a voice training app awesome, offering custom lessons for pitch and feedback. So this one it says it says pink trombone. This interactive web-based application simulates the human vocal tract, allowing users to explore how different vocal tones are produced. So it's funny, you know, it's like, you know, you think about like AI stuff, which we'll talk more about that here in a bit too. But but we think about how it's, you know, we're training it to do stuff. And now here's an example of it's actually training us how to do stuff. Yeah, exactly. So maybe that's a good, maybe good part of the feedback loop.

Abbie Griffin: 13:40

It's like integration of technology with the human body, literally, and then how it's informing us uh intellectually.

Lij Shaw: 13:49

Yeah. Okay, so now choir, stuff I remember about choir was um so so specifically I remember learning things like blend your voice with the other voices, don't be louder or too or quieter, you know, try and be in there. I remember learning things about, you know, hide your consonants and your siblants and things like that. Um and I don't remember what pitch things I really learned. I feel like that's just sort of you you just sort of learn it. Although I do know a big challenge in choir was knowing where your starting note is. Because if you don't have a reference beforehand, you're like, where am I supposed to be?

Abbie Griffin: 14:34

I luckily had a really good couple of choir teachers, and they would train us on like um pulling like audience, um, and so auditing your starting note before singing. Audiating.

Lij Shaw: 14:48

The auditor.

Abbie Griffin: 14:48

Yeah, the auditor. That's like my I'm gonna use that. I don't know on what, but that's a good one. Do it. I'll write it down. Um but audiating like um A440 in our brains, and that's what we would start like our warmups on. Um and then What does that mean? So it means like hearing the note in your brain and making the um it was kind of like that that mind-body connection before you actually sing and release the note. So your positioning in your body, like vocally through the pink trombone aspect, would form the note of the A, whatever it was. Yeah. Um, and then she would be like, all right, audiate the before, and then cue us in, and we would all go and cue and sing the same note. Well, with with within octaves, you know, for the yeah, I think it's interesting.

Lij Shaw: 15:50

And and what's fascinating to me, you know, I've been doing this for so long, and and yet still I feel like I'm just like a beginner student all the time. So, like learning things like, you know, you you you're familiar with the term like A44, A440. You're like, oh that's that's A, that's like your tuning reference, you know, the tuner, make sure it's in 440 or whatever. But you know, when do you stop to think about it? Like, what exactly is A4040? And it my guess is it's probably um smack dab in the middle of the human voice range, right? Pretty much probably why it's relevant.

Abbie Griffin: 16:25

I think so, yeah.

Lij Shaw: 16:26

Because every instrument is relevant to the human voice, you know. It's it's lower than what the human voice is, it's higher.

Abbie Griffin: 16:34

Or like how the violin encompasses the exact quote unquote like tambourine range of the human voice. Yeah, and then you'll notes in there too. Well, if you think about like the operatic sopranos and stuff, that's really right within their range, too. Um, and usually it's it's pretty much within like a soprano twos-ish range. Um, but that's why like lead lines for fiddle and violin and like you know, that that kind of thing, strings can make you so emotional because it's the instrument that closely most closely resembles the human voice.

Lij Shaw: 17:07

Badass. Rockstar, you see why I wanted to have Abby on the podcast after meeting her. Um because I like your enthusiasm. Like you seem very um, you seem very clear on your interest in this in music and everything and to be driven. So so for example, we were at the meetup and you were asking about mastering, and I was like so much.

Abbie Griffin: 17:27

I like word vomiting at you. I was crazy anyway.

Lij Shaw: 17:32

Well, it's all right, it's all right, but but my point is like, you know, you mentioned that you were doing production and stuff, but you needed a good mastering engineer. I was like, I just I just met him, you know, I was just chatting with an engineer here, and of course, and so I'm like, You want to meet him? It's like you're like, sure, great. And so we go over and I introduce you to um um uh Brandon, I think it was, right? And so uh, and so you know, then you meet him, and then you're like, What kind of stuff have you done? He's like, Well, we just won like all the Grammys for everything, you know. You're like, Oh, I was like, oh cool, yeah, yeah, but um, but it's cool to see that kind of enthusiasm. And I've I've seen enough of it in the music business, or at least in my experience, to know that the thing that carries, I mean, talent has got to be there, but the definitely big, big driver for what carries people from the beginning to you know, great amounts of success is just simply the the desire and the motivation and the um confidence, you know, being willing to, you know, self-believe in what you're doing and and go for it.

Abbie Griffin: 18:37

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 18:37

Well, fingers crossed. Carry on, carry on.

Abbie Griffin: 18:39

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 18:40

Um, so all right, so those are some fascinating things about singing in a choir now.

Abbie Griffin: 18:44

And sight reading too.

Lij Shaw: 18:45

And sight reading, right? Okay, so you really learn how to do that.

Abbie Griffin: 18:48

Yeah, and even like I'm not the greatest reader, I do most everything by ear anyway, but when needed, I can really like lock in and it's almost muscle memory at some points for sight reading certain things. Guitar gets really hard, but like for rhythm sight reading for when I played drums, I didn't realize that I had like that sight reading chops kind of in my act. Uh yeah, a little bit. I really miss playing drums. I haven't played in a while, but I like it.

Lij Shaw: 19:21

Well, then you're off to a good start because uh one of the things that happened to me and probably happens to a lot of people is the moment you start building a studio, you know, maybe you start out with being interested in one instrument, but then now I've got some different instruments in the studio. I'm like, well, I'm gonna learn how to play this, I'm gonna learn how to play that. So, you know, sitting down, uh I always was really fascinated by learning how to play drums. So I'd sit down and start playing a lot more bass.

Abbie Griffin: 19:46

It's hard. You have like all your limbs going octopus arms at once.

Lij Shaw: 19:49

That's true, yeah. And then also like learning what kind of stuff actually helps the song versus just gets in the way. And the more you record stuff and produce, the more you have a sense of that. And then you know, then you'll sit down at the drums and like you might surprise yourself. You might find that you have a much easier time playing to a click track and playing a simple, awesome part than a drummer who doesn't know that stuff yet does.

Abbie Griffin: 20:15

Yeah. Or like uh creating space within the track of things to add versus things to take away. Like I remember we were doing scratch drums for one of my friends' songs, and I was hearing something in my head that was very different than what she wanted, and I was like, Oh, we don't have a drummer in here. And then I was like, wait a minute. I forgot that I took drum lessons, so I hopped on and then it was scratch. We didn't have the mics set up for anything, so we had two overheads and then like a in-between mic and maybe a snare. Um and I played the groove and she was like, That's exactly it. I didn't know I had that in me, but I think it's really good. Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 21:00

And I And was she supposed to be the drummer, or were you you just didn't know what you were gonna do?

Abbie Griffin: 21:04

We were only doing guitar vocal that day and we were doing scratches for Three of her songs because we wanted to do like a little EP, but she didn't have any real demos besides like voice memos. So I wanted to get her in, and we were talking about like uh the kind of vibe that she wanted. And so we really had one song that we were focusing on, and that was the song that we ended up, you know, adding more parts to. Um, but we didn't know where that was gonna take us, and we just wanted it to be uh uh like a a let's see how we work together tracking day. And then we started to get going and the ideas kept flowing, and then she was like, I think I really we have to decide on a drum thing. And I was like, Okay, let's see. And we were talking and talking and talking, and it just ended up being like, you know what? We have to lay down something. Let's let's go in. And we had I had my two engineer team, and I was like, How many mics do we have? Can we kind of mic up this like terrible, disgusting drum kit that's in the school studio that like it's not tuned, it's terrible, but it was there for us to kind of get the framework of the song. And so we talked about it. I hopped in. I only did four passes of it, and I did something a little bit different every time.

Lij Shaw: 22:22

And then we got into a lot of these kind of you mentioned being interested in sort of um muted drums, I think was the term you use, right? Yeah. When we were walking around the studio earlier, yeah. And so, as opposed to like rock drums, which I think rock drums kind of need to sound like a confident drummer in a real drum kit in a real room a lot of times. But for the songwriter-y stuff, it's much easier to get away with away with um, you know, something less demanding from the drum kit in terms of I don't want to m that to be misinterpreted, it's still gotta feel great.

Abbie Griffin: 22:56

Yeah, but it has to have some nice lay-down rhythm.

Lij Shaw: 23:00

Yeah, but like you could you could kind of pillow up the drums and put mute the snare and keep it tight and and a couple of simple mics. Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 23:08

I think I had my phone in my wallet on the snare. Yeah. And I might have been using, I have like these light pink jazz sticks. Yeah. And so I was going really light on it. We wanted like a I don't remember what kind of vibe, but it was like that kind of bedroom pop Claro. Um, what else? Like uh Gracie Abrams almost. Yeah. Right, which is much simpler than some some little shuffle kind of energy, not very many symbols. I think I used the bell of the ride, and that's that was probably it. Yeah. And I did some um a lot of my jazz drumming is from my um my drum professor. I wanted to do like just basic rock drums, and he made me learn like rhythms, and a lot of which was on the uh rim of the floor tom, and so I would I had like cross stick action, some bell action, some um rim of the floor tom, and then you know, a couple little fills. Yeah, but mostly it was like auxiliary percussion using the drum kit, which was cool.

Lij Shaw: 24:14

Right. At Isotope, mixing and mastering just got even smarter. Velvet gives you silky vocals with siblance learn DSing, dynamic tone shaping, and D-Click, all in one plugin. And Ozone 11 now includes clarity, upward compression, and AI-powered stem focus to help you master like a pro. Use code ROC10 for 10% off Ozone or any of Isotope's incredible plugins at Isotope.com. And now have you tried building loops from that stuff? Because that can be like incredibly powerful too. Yeah, a little bit. Like the the the simple act of having some something mic'd up, you know, like you could have one mic. You could have two mics, you could have one in front of the kick and one on top above the drums in the snare, and that might be all you even need. Yeah. And then you just play like a couple of simple beats, loop it, you know. Um, you can really build the track cool that way. And the nice thing about doing that is if you get something that feels kind of right, all of a sudden you don't need a click track to play everything to. Like that's the thing that just puts everything in the pocket.

Abbie Griffin: 25:24

I am not good at following the click track for the whole song. I am so terrible at it. So that's exactly what we did. I played it for the verses, and you know, I did three repetitions of the beat that I had going, the whatever rhythm. And then I had a different one for the chorus, a different one for the bridge. Smart, you were thinking ahead. Yeah, yeah. And I tried going through it. That's why we only did it four times, because the first two times, my engineers, they were like so mad at me. They were like, Abby, you're not following this click track at all. And I said, Okay, just put me in for the verse. Okay, just put me in for the chorus. And then we only did, you know, eight bars of each rhythm, and then we looped.

Lij Shaw: 26:04

I mean, you'll be amazed. You can you'll you might find that like one bar of everything is and each part is all you need.

Abbie Griffin: 26:09

I think we ended up cutting it two and then repeating because I could not stay on the rhythm because I'm not a drummer, but I could do enough.

Lij Shaw: 26:18

But I think this is great because there's so many people um, you know, who are listening who might be in that boat where it's like, you know, there's a it's a common thing to want to record more music. Maybe all you've got is yourself to get it done. So how are you gonna get it done? And you know, we can lean on tools like um, you know, addictive drums and logic drummer and all these other things. Kyle, but but they're also limiting, you know, they're also like they're it's they're both pretty amazing and kind of limiting because you know, you don't have quite as much control over the feel, the subtleties of of what it does in a way that you do when you just can you know play one bar of something yourself. Yeah. So so to that point, um, maybe we should talk a little bit more about that. But a couple of ideas that come to mind for me are what you said, which is like go play along with the verse, and you're just looking for like one good bar that you can. Exactly. Um, you can always use the tools to tighten it up just a little bit more, and that's effective. And then go play in the chorus where the feels a little different, and you can do one of that. If the symbols are a problem, like if you're like symbols don't, you know, because one bar you might you don't want a crash to happen every one bar. So you can just overdub the crash and stuff like that, or you can even overdub the ride.

Abbie Griffin: 27:35

Exactly. Um I don't think I even used the symbols at all. They put me in for different fills, and I would go back over for like the transitions between verse and chorus. Exactly.

Lij Shaw: 27:46

That's what I was gonna say. That's so brilliant. You already got the idea figured out.

Abbie Griffin: 27:50

Locked in.

Lij Shaw: 27:51

So then you just like, yeah, you just take those loops, play along to it, or um just play another pass and just do transitions or whatever, or just just put an empty hole at the end of the verse going to the chorus. And that's like just do a bunch of them and then comp in the best one, and there's your drum fill going from one second.

Abbie Griffin: 28:07

Advances in technology, you don't have to, you know, cut the tape. You can whatever uh go around your project.

Lij Shaw: 28:15

You're going way back if you're gonna if you're gonna reference tape and like as if like you know, boy, things are easier for Abby now. I mean, you know, tape's gonna be a big thing. For me with my long uh tape's been gone for for quite a bit.

Abbie Griffin: 28:27

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 28:28

Um well, no, it's still good. It's still here. Sorry. I would I would like it. I would like it. It's still here. I'm just saying that like, you know, you grew up uh where well let's talk about that. So like at 22, when you first, you know, what do you feel like is the stuff that you grew up with? When you think about like the way things used to be, it might be a tricky question because you're also aware of how it used to be before you were music.

Abbie Griffin: 28:54

Like personally for me, um my dad had a little baby home studio.

Lij Shaw: 29:00

Okay, cool.

Abbie Griffin: 29:00

Um still does, but it's it's you know, caught up with the times now.

Lij Shaw: 29:05

Your dad, who's also a fan of the podcast. Hi dad.

Abbie Griffin: 29:08

Hi dad. He's gonna be he is 100% gonna be watching this, probably on repeat.

Lij Shaw: 29:13

I've got I'm drinking uh in honor of that. I'm drinking from the mug with me and my daughter today, which is she actually looks a bit like you and this one right there. Although we're making goofy faces.

Abbie Griffin: 29:24

No, that's me and my dad too. And you have a beard in that one. My dad is like king of beard, yeah. Yeah, right. Um, so he started with um he had Daws and things, and he had his like little Mackey mixer, 16 channel, whatever. Um, and he had like a a mic setup and everything, but we did a lot of CD stuff and he did a lot of CD burning. Right. And well, so I was born in 2003, and the reason why is still rocket CDs at that point for sure. Yeah. And two decades is because there's recordings of him doing mic tests in his studio with me as a little baby singing, like um, with in the headphones is like the um karaoke track of part of your world from The Little Mermaid or Pocahontas or Cinderella songs and stuff, and so he would do like his mic tests with me as a little kid, and it was definitely so if I compare that to now, it was a lot more um slower kind of. I don't know. Um we were just talking about how digital studios versus analog is like you have a whole new set of issues. And to me, I mean, I know I was a little baby, but even when I was like in middle school, I don't really know if we had that kind of the same kind of problems and the same kind of advantages because we did a lot of he recorded into a DAW too. Um, but my dad is like anti-digital mixer still to this day. Yeah, he like hates them.

Lij Shaw: 31:02

Um so wait, so but you might be using or he might be using a computer to actually capture the music and play it back, but he's using it more like a tape machine. Yeah. So then so then is he mixing it back through the Macy mixer? Yeah, which is a great sound. I mean, it's the funny thing about this stuff. Like, I remember the Mackey mixer comes along. We get really excited, we're like, holy shit, you can get this cool mixer, and it's you know, uh kind of generally it was affordable back then. And um, and then you use it, and I was really excited. I had I had my 1604 and we had a 3208, I think it was, or something at the studio at Alex's Great. And then um, and then then it's passe, and then it's when you're in the computer, it's like, ugh, that's an old Mackey, right? Yeah, and then it comes back again. And then it's like, oh the Maggie, what we do, what we think it was so cool, you know? That's what my dad says every time.

Abbie Griffin: 31:52

He's like old faithful, they always come back to it.

Lij Shaw: 31:55

Exactly. Yeah, one of the things that that got me re-interested in the Mackie was uh when a friend of mine was pointing out that that was like the Daft Punk sound, all the early Daft Punk records. That and uh an Elise 36. What was it, the 3630? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, Rox, there's just been a minute since I said some of these model numbers. Um, you know, it's just a good reminder. Now, um, does that give us all permission to be pack rats? You're not there yet, but you you might be down the future, you know, and like have basements full of gear we're not using because it might come back around one day.

Abbie Griffin: 32:31

Well, that's how my dad is. Yeah, like the shelves of stuff. He has 29 guitars, and so it's got me beat. Really? Well, he he's a freak about it, that's why. But he has like so much stuff that my mom was like, Mike, can you get rid of that, please? And then within the last year or something, I've used it in every like shoot or in every You're using all the stuff. I literally use all of his stuff, and then he's like, see guys, I told you.

Lij Shaw: 33:02

That's awesome.

Abbie Griffin: 33:02

I don't I don't know if you should subscribe to that, but all right.

Lij Shaw: 33:06

Well, so tell us about some of the old stuff that you really like. What have you been digging? What do you what are you pulling off the shelves?

Abbie Griffin: 33:12

Well, this is this one's gonna be like a pretty basic one or like a fan favorite. Um, but he had these vintage U87s that say made in West Germany, and I like had no idea about them before I went to college because I like knew some some audio things. I knew a lot of from in front of the mic, not necessarily behind the scenes. I knew a lot about the live stuff, and I did a lot of theater stuff, but he had these mics in the cases, and I was like, Oh, those old old microphones and the whatever, and the cases are like, you know, the foam is disintegrating, and um then when I needed mics for things at school, I was like, oh, uh U87. Oh, wait, there's a U87 in this old shoot with Elvis. Oh, Whitney Hu. Oh. Oh, and then we used it, and then and then you go open it up back at your dad's house. And I was like crumbling the holy crap, this is the vintage, you know, matched pair, whatever. Um and the and the crumbling foam syndrome is the worst. Dirty melt on your face. Then you're like, what do you have on your neck? Yeah, and it's black pieces of the headphone foam. But the same thing happened with these too. You would open it up, like it's these old, disgusting, beat-up cases. Then you open it up, it's like a beautiful, like, amazing. They're one of them is a little more beat up than the other. Um, but I remember using, we went into the studio and we compared the new one, the you know, newer-ish 2015 model of the U87, which is very different from the old one, like character-wise. And I was like, My dad has had these, two of them, and he did not let me use them. And then I went back home and I asked him, Dad, hey, uh, do you think that I could like maybe borrow the U87? He was like, You could have one. You can use one. Come back to me. If it's anything is damaged, anything is dirty, you will never be able to use it again. And now we're pretty chill. We're pretty cool.

Lij Shaw: 35:20

So, what do you how do you describe what it is about a U87 that you like uh other than pictures of famous people using it? Is there some is there a way you would describe what it sounded like to you?

Abbie Griffin: 35:31

So for me, the hot take, I don't know if it's my favorite vocal, Mike.

Lij Shaw: 35:39

It doesn't have to be.

Abbie Griffin: 35:41

I like I think it's like an industry favorite, but I don't know if it's like for personally my voice, if it's the best, or in general, I think it's a good um, like not baseline, but I think it's really clear. I think the clarity, like on the high end and your kind of transient level, you know, that end of the spectrum is really clear. And yeah, the frequency response, but also the color of it is has got that condenser clarity, open air kind of sound. So everything just sounds really clear and really well translated.

Lij Shaw: 36:14

What kind of instruments sound good to you on that? Your acoustic?

Abbie Griffin: 36:18

Because some vocals do.

Lij Shaw: 36:20

Some vocals do, yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 36:21

But I usually like a warmer vocal sound, so like a 414, which is also maybe a hot take. Um, or the the Austrian audio OC 818, yeah, which is you know 414-esque. Yeah. That has become my next new favorite, but I think the 414, yeah, it's good on vocals. And then the U87s are really good on like overheads, I've been hearing. Um then guitar acoustic. Because we I had done like a lot of pencil condenser, you know, small, small diaphragm condenser things on acoustic guitar, which sound really nice too. And I've done like a couple trial runs of certain acoustic guitars with U87, and I think acoustic guitar is really, really nice, you know, mic'd up on the 12th fret.

Lij Shaw: 37:13

Um 87. Yeah, so I pulled up a frequency chart. I'm trying to I'm trying to really demonstrate my ability to screen share in a moment's notice here.

Abbie Griffin: 37:23

Exactly, with the the at the 10-ish K.

Lij Shaw: 37:27

Yeah, so this comes from the record recordinghacks.com site. But um, you could see these different uh frequency responses, and I don't know if that's the standard roll-off there or if that's with a roll-off. Um, but I'm guessing this one maybe is with a higher roll-off if it has different roll-offs. And then you've got this 10k boost, so that kind of clarity, which isn't necessarily what you might want as a female singer, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe um, because I feel like sometimes the mics that appeal to us for different use cases are like um uh, you know, a woman's voice maybe has highs in it, and so we want to mic be shrills in the other parts too much high from your mic, you know. Whereas a male voice might not have the highs, so we might like the highs. Exactly. The other mic.

Abbie Griffin: 38:18

I haven't done too much with male voices in the studio, and that's kind of like I I feel like I need to experiment so much more with different types of voices because I've had a lot of types of female voices, and not so much in the male category.

Lij Shaw: 38:34

Well, and that makes sense. I mean, you know, you start out, I think, by uh working with and recording the people that you know, your friends, yeah, because they're the first people you get to.

Abbie Griffin: 38:42

And I have a lot of male guy friends who are instrumentalists that are like really good.

Lij Shaw: 38:46

So we've been So they don't want to sing, they're not ready to sing, but they're ready to back you up on some instruments.

Abbie Griffin: 38:50

Yeah, or they're ready to like, you know, sit in the studio with the drum kit, test out things for hours, but trying to get somebody behind the mic, a guy to sing, has been hard.

Lij Shaw: 39:00

Um, so now do you have a studio of your own too? Or you have something that you call yours, which you're using to record and make music right now?

Abbie Griffin: 39:07

Well, that's been like my newest expedition to find somewhere to ha call home base, kind of. I've been floating around um, you know, Montclair and New Jersey, northern-ish, to figure out places to go and like, you know, somewhere to work out of as a producer. Because I I'm you know, straying from the engineer kind of aspect because I know that I want to be a little more heady, a little more creative, a little more um that kind of thing.

Lij Shaw: 39:36

But I think it's really valuable to know the have the laptop and some kind of of course. Yeah, what what app do you like to use to make music right now?

Abbie Griffin: 39:44

Well, so my like basic setup is literally my HP laptop, which Windows. Um some people might uh disagree with that, but that's where I started. That's that's a that's a my dad thing too.

Lij Shaw: 40:01

Um is a Windows I don't really know what the dollar goes a lot further when you go Windows.

Abbie Griffin: 40:06

And like the upgrade like DIY do yourself version of like if I needed more RAM or you know drive space or anything. Um Scarlet 2I2 plugged into my new upgraded. I got Genilex, um, what are they the the 1030s?

Lij Shaw: 40:26

Um those are great.

Abbie Griffin: 40:28

Yeah. Those I bought off a reverb, and they're two different um generations, but they're the same model, but two different generations. So the switches are like on the opposite side, the screws are different. It was like whatever, but it's a good way to start. And I've I talked to one of my professors, and he was like, that's a great investment if you start off with the with whatever Gen Elixir you're gonna have them for the rest of your life.

Lij Shaw: 40:52

But if you think they're not really matched, you can always just flip flop your left and right every once in a while. Just kind of I think they're pretty good.

Abbie Griffin: 41:00

They're like pretty even. Um, just visually, maybe not. Um and then I have my mics like switch around. I had the road um What is it, the NT1?

Lij Shaw: 41:11

Um classic starter mic right there.

Abbie Griffin: 41:14

Yeah. Yeah. That was a yet again, my dad, uh Chris's gift. Um, I was like, I need, I need something, please. I need a condenser because I was just using the scarlet, the one that comes on the the student kit with the headphones and the everything.

Lij Shaw: 41:27

And you got your uh your eye on any um upgrade mics in the future one day?

Abbie Griffin: 41:34

Well I'm I want to get some 414s and I want that to be my go-to because I think that they're they have presented themselves to me in the most versatile manner because I've done you know things with toms and guitar cabs and bass amps and overheads and vocals and acoustic guitar all with the 414. Um and I think that that's a good they're not the most expensive, but they're very versatile. And so that would be my next go-to. And I think it's a little similar to how the NT1 sounds.

Lij Shaw: 42:11

Dreaming of a career in audio or the entertainment business? SAE Institute Nashville, in the heart of Music Row, offers hands-on programs where you'll learn on professional grade gear with industry pros, learning through real projects, not just lectures. Explore studio production, live sound, audio for film, and a whole lot more. Or take the entertainment business program to learn about contracts, promotion, and more. With diploma, associate, and bachelor's programs, there's a path for you. Book a tour today at nashville.sae.edu or call 615-244-5848. The 414. 414's a classic mic. It's a great, great choice. Um there's a big difference between some of the newer and older ones. And I have an old B U L S one, which is uh pretty darker, sounds really beautiful on voice sometimes, you know. Um and then, you know, some other similar mic options. You messed m uh mentioned the Austrian audio, so that's that's another great one. And the um the Lewitt LCT 640 TS is another, it's similar to the the 414 in that it's got that versatility. But um, you know, in probably half the price of those two are the Roswell Pro Audio mics, which um don't have the switchability if you want like polar patterns, polar patterns and stuff. Some of uh I'm trying to remember some of them do, like I think the um the Delphos does, uh, but they can sound really great too. And then Jay-Z microphones is another fun one. These are these are both mic companies that I'm very familiar with.

Abbie Griffin: 43:52

Lower price points?

Lij Shaw: 43:53

And there's a ton out there too. And then um Vanguard. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, I've heard great.

Abbie Griffin: 43:58

Oh, I think I stopped by them at the show.

Lij Shaw: 44:00

Yeah, Derek uh has been on the show as well. So um those are those are great mics, and they're they're well within the uh cool, you know, affordable range for for studios too. And it's all relative, you know, everybody's version of affordable or expensive is just totally relative.

Abbie Griffin: 44:16

Well, when I'm on that that post-college student budget. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lij Shaw: 44:20

And you know, in the end, you know, it's all about like how you use the stuff anyway. It's yeah, we're listening to the music.

Abbie Griffin: 44:25

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 44:26

Um, so you know, do you have some examples of musicians that have made records with um low budget gear um that you're familiar with that really got you excited? Anybody that really inspires you?

Abbie Griffin: 44:40

Honestly, oh my okay, this is kind of straying for the mic thing, but Lazy McAlpine, her engineer, found a toy guitar and like filled it in with resin and put pickups in it, and like, you know, took literally thrifting toy guitar from the goodwill or wherever, and used it on her album and the song that I was listening to before Spring into Summer, that low end, I'm pretty sure he used it on that one. Um, but the her most recent album, there's like this saturated, warm, beautiful, distorted guitar sound, and it's made from a homemade DIY toy guitar electric upgrade.

Lij Shaw: 45:25

Wow, that's cool.

Abbie Griffin: 45:26

And that that is the thing that most prominently sticks out to me. I know there's a lot of other things that I've listened to that are lower budget.

Lij Shaw: 45:33

And there's that difference, or there it's not difference, but like there's that awareness of um DIY home building the instrument, because you know, in that case, we're just trying to make a sound that we like. Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 45:44

And um either less expensive uh or you know left of center, you know, unusual thrift store find recording gear, microphones or you know, tape machines or that's it's definitely like a different beast when you're thinking of you know, recording gear versus instruments, because instruments could kind of be anything, I think. Um in a way.

Lij Shaw: 46:13

Right. You can go play uh sounds out of the kitchen.

Abbie Griffin: 46:15

You could spoons, like that's an instrument. Like they you have spoons players in bluegrass bands. Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 46:21

Um and the cool thing about uh singing too is you can just there's so much expression in the human voice. You can make so many different sounds and you can evoke.

Abbie Griffin: 46:30

Well, I think like thinking outside of the box is really important to do, even if you're doing uh like stuff with mics and recording. I think instruments is really important to do that. And I think like that's you know, you don't need the top of the line, you know, player series, whatever, guitar. You don't need your, you know, I think things are unique in that way if you get the top of the line, top-notch thing, but um what's really unique is the character of everything. And so, you know, lower budget mics or even stuff recorded like Billie Eilish, she sits in the studio next to her brother and records on a 7B. So like that's the sure SM7. The sure SM7B, yeah. And it's it's like so it's that's not as you know low budget, but it's a basic mic. Or she does literally a 58 with a windscreen on it, just sitting there. Um, and that's what she did for a lot of her most recent album and like her song Bad Guy, and that was a lot of it's it's just her in the studio. If you listen to the isolated vocal tracks, um it you can hear the bleed from the speakers.

Lij Shaw: 47:40

But because uh headphones, necessarily.

Abbie Griffin: 47:44

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 47:44

That's cool.

Abbie Griffin: 47:45

Sometimes on some stuff, but yeah. I think and that is like, you know, those shore mics are your like even your 57s are your um, you know, in economy stable dynamics, yeah. Yeah, dynamics. Um they're like basic. Everybody uses oh, throw a 57 on it. Oh, we could use it, yeah, yeah. Who's you've got an extra mic? It's probably a 57. Yeah, it's been run over four times. It's or like the 58s in the old in your bars in uh open mic kind of atmosphere. They're dented in. They're like bring your own mic cleaner. Yeah, exactly. I when those windscreens never washed, ever, probably. Yeah, they don't even know.

Lij Shaw: 48:26

I've got a horrible story about that. About I have taught so many people.

Abbie Griffin: 48:30

I was like, Do you know that you can unscrew it and take it off? They were like, What are you taught? Don't break it. And it the whole thing comes off. And I'm like, You're supposed to watch this.

Lij Shaw: 48:40

Yeah, you want to hear the gross, my gross story. All right, so we were doing we were doing a song, uh, it was called the chemistry song in in my band in college. And um Rich Scubish sings all these great funny lyrics, and at one point he's singing a song about like mixing all this stuff together as a chemistry student, and then he ends up with a test tube full of air. Last like that's the punchline. And so we're doing the um, and I'm singing harmony with him, and I get to the end, and just before he says air, I thought like, oh, I'm gonna make like an air sound. But instead of blowing on the mic, I inhaled, I was like, like that, and all the stuff that was in that mic came right out of it, right into my mouth. That is so disgusting.

Abbie Griffin: 49:26

Oh god.

Lij Shaw: 49:27

So lesson learned.

Abbie Griffin: 49:29

You actually actually that's really gross. Yeah, it's really gross.

Lij Shaw: 49:35

But I did it for the team, you know. I took one for the team. Now everybody knows. Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 49:38

Now that I'm now never doing that.

Lij Shaw: 49:39

I mean, it took me 30 years to make the podcast and finally get it out there, but now everybody knows that, you know, don't suck on the microphone, don't inhale on it, blow on it if you gotta make a make a you know, special sound effect.

Abbie Griffin: 49:53

Okay, um that's really gross.

Lij Shaw: 49:55

So let me uh let me pivot for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things you mentioned, okay. We'd have to go long on this, but I just thought it really caught my attention is um along with your interest in music and recording, um, you also didn't you say you were also like doing strength training or weight weightlifting and stuff like that?

Abbie Griffin: 50:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 50:13

So what's that all about?

Abbie Griffin: 50:14

Well, so I do yoga every day.

Lij Shaw: 50:17

Okay, cool.

Abbie Griffin: 50:18

And I was a part of my weightlifting, like Olympic weightlifting program in my high school.

Lij Shaw: 50:24

Olympic.

Abbie Griffin: 50:24

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 50:24

And so it's that's the name of the style of lifting. Yeah, yeah. You guys weren't in the Olympics.

Abbie Griffin: 50:29

No, imagine that would be I would be way cooler if that was the case. Um, no, but it's like using kilos and doing like traditional deadlifts or uh like clean jerk. Yeah. Um you know, sumo deadlift uh article. Clean jerk.

Lij Shaw: 50:43

That seems like another cool name to use for something like that.

Abbie Griffin: 50:45

Like a like a band name like name of a record clean jerk. Clean jerk studios. Hmm. Nobody take that. Um but uh yeah, so I did a lot of strength training when I was in the middle of doing, I was like a three-season athlete and I did a lot of theater and music stuff all at once. Right. And I kind of strayed away from that, starting college. And as soon as I got back into it and doing, you know, focusing on my like health and fitness and that kind of thing, this past like calendar year, um, it's really impacted my level of creativity based on cool like day-to-day stuff that I've noticed and um focus too. And my dad, yet again, has a whole philosophy on like the the body and mind connection. And through starting my yoga yogi journey, um and you know, going to the gym and and lifting, it's really made me have has allowed me to make decisions creatively, like when I'm in the studio as the producer, with like in a in a snap and an instant to rely on myself and my own instincts, because I think the stress and the anxiety kind of leaves, or I can deal with it in a better manner because I have literally less stress in my body through doing the weightlifting and fitness and stuff. And also because it just like my back hurts a lot.

Lij Shaw: 52:20

So I've noticed that too. The more I lift too, like well, actually, I don't think like it's the lifting that's hurting my back. It's when I it's the in-between when I do like the full body ones without weights. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And then I'm like, ah, my back kind of aches after that.

Abbie Griffin: 52:33

And then you do like my recovery for that is more yoga. Just doing more of it. And if I keep up with it, if I'm in a routine, then my daily routines follow in like a nice, I don't know, organized kind of setup manner. So why would I it's really when I take breaks is when I notice things are like really wrong and everything just feels wrong. And I like my friends notice with me too. They're like, you're being weird today. I'm like, forgot to do yoga this morning. So yeah.

Lij Shaw: 53:08

Yeah, so I think that's great. And it's good to hear that you've got that attitude or that um understanding of exercise and health and stuff like that.

Abbie Griffin: 53:16

And I've been trying to do self-disciplined stuff too.

Lij Shaw: 53:19

It helps with a lot of stuff. And you know, like for me, I put in a decade initially of making records where it was like seven days a week, morning, you know, wake up to sleep. And it's not a healthy way to to live, but I think that the fact that every time I took a break, it was like go work out, eat dinner, back to the studio kept me able to deal with it all, you know.

Abbie Griffin: 53:43

Yeah, and I learned the hard way a little bit uh last summer because I would go, you know, early in the morning. I was teaching this songwriting camp, and we would go from eight to one or nine, nine to one-ish. So it wasn't the worst, but I would wake up early because I had to take the train in, and I would wake up at whatever six-ish to take the train, then I would go teach, and teaching is like, you know, on your feet. You have to be really into it with all the kids to try and control that classroom, and then go straight to the studio to attempt to record my my album, which that is a separate story too. Right. Um but then I would go home and if I just like laid around, laid on my couch, didn't do anything, I would be so unproductive the next day, and I would be off my game with the songwriting and trying to get these kids to be really interested in the you know the craft of creating music. And then in the studio, I would like have a really hard time trying to get my ideas across.

Lij Shaw: 54:46

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 54:46

And then so last semester, I like totally disregarded everything that I learned in the summer of like, you know, it's really important to take care of yourself because like to keep yourself going, you have to take care of your needs and your not just what you want and not just your goals. Because having that strong foundation will help you propel for for further forward. Um and I like let myself burn out again, and I really had to take the time to step back and understand what I needed and eliminate some things that were causing me problems or some things that weren't really like necessarily serving me. And focusing on my fitness and stuff was a really good way to help um get that foundation of yeah, like solid to have me propel forward. Right. So that's that's been my expedition. Now a lot of trial and error.

Lij Shaw: 55:41

Now you're in you're just finishing up school and and recording music and everything and getting getting a degree and all that. Uh what how do you want to describe what it's been like to be in school for recording? What kind of stuff do you felt feel like you've learned there? What kind of stuff did you think you were gonna learn? And um what is uh what are the things about a school environment that you think have been really helpful?

Abbie Griffin: 56:08

I think so. My expectations for learning, I didn't really have that many. I joined a brand new program and I was already at college for a year, and then the program came to fruition.

Lij Shaw: 56:20

You're like, oh yeah, that's for me.

Abbie Griffin: 56:22

Yeah, and I like had ideas of it being a thing. Otherwise, I was gonna go into you know, film and TV, do communications, something like that, and then try and focus in the audio.

Lij Shaw: 56:31

Next thing you know, that you'd be standing in front of a mic in front of a house burning, yeah, I don't know.

Abbie Griffin: 56:37

Or meteorology or like something. Meteorology. I don't know. I don't know where I was gonna go. But then they were like, oh, it's gonna be a recording thing with like pop music, and it'll be half in the music school, half in the communications school, so film and TV and that kind of stuff. And I was like, okay, that's really perfect. Um, so my expectations were, oh, I'm gonna learn how to record my own stuff, and I don't know how much I care about really getting into it. I just want to learn how to get the technical side to work for me. And then as I was going through the whole, you know, you have to take this elective, this is your coursework, this is your everything, these are your required classes for the major. I kind of realized I did a lot of post-production. I did, you know, music for my first year, first two semesters. Then it was a lot of post and live stuff. And then this year, senior year, I kind of got to branch out and do more of what I wanted. Um, and through experiencing a little bit of everything, that was the point of our major too, is kind of picking, choosing your lane of where you want to go and experiencing a little bit of everything so that you are aware of what's out there.

Lij Shaw: 57:55

What what lane did you feel like was most interesting to you?

Abbie Griffin: 57:58

I thought that it was gonna be um live. That's how I came in too. I was doing a lot of theater and I was doing a lot of live band um live sound reinforcement. And then I got into post, and the way that I was in post, I decided that I hated doing sound design editing. I hated editing on Pro Tools, and I hated when I had a teacher like telling me what to do behind me. And so then in all the classroom environments, I would kind of have a creative, more like out-of-the-box um perspective. And I made roles of a producer for me in every class because I did not want to do the technical work. And I didn't realize that that was happening until this past, you know, fall semester, because then I could actually start doing the producer roles and I made like, you know, my own independent study kind of thing. I was working with TV classes and I was producing on that aspect. And so, you know, my major's recording arts and production. Right. But I didn't know what production meant. I knew of famous producers, you know, going into college. I knew of some people that were famous for that, you know, like George Martin and like the the old heads kind of um, but I had to learn what that meant now too. And school didn't teach me that, it came out of what I didn't like through school. And the same with like the opportunities that school gave me. Um, I would have never connected with some of the people that I work with now, and I would have never had some experiences that were like pivotal in me figuring out what I wanted to do, and less of like the education, I think it's really important. And I think that you know, getting educated in something and committing to that and finding out what you like and where you fit, or if you hate it too. I think finding out what you dislike is maybe more important than finding out what you do like, or finding out what you're bad at, or like your pitfalls is probably more important than figuring out what you're good at. Yeah. Because then you can work on it. Um, but definitely production, the lane, because I figured out that I hated the tech. I hated it. Right. I thought I would love it being alone sitting, but no, I can't. I'm I'm too people person. I'm too, you know, I I zoom out too much.

Lij Shaw: 1:00:36

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Abbie Griffin: 1:01:49

Yeah. All right, cool. Definitely.

Lij Shaw: 1:01:51

So now um when I met you at NAM, you were also there with one of you were there with uh a very close friend of yours that I think you're making music with. And then also her dad was also there. Yeah. Um, but you've been making uh so shout out to you guys. And uh we've been or you've been making music now a bunch. So let's talk about that a little bit. Uh do you know, do you guys have you formed sort of a band you want to talk about? And then um, you know, what is it that you really love about songwriting?

Abbie Griffin: 1:02:19

Yeah, okay. So my my band has been really fluctuating. I had like that never happens to anybody. Yeah, right. That never changes. You never have problems with band members ever. Um but you know, your your interests and the path of things, I think can really change within. I mean, you know, when we were all young too, and I was working with a lot of different people and people in my program and other things like that, and then our goals didn't really align. And I had a couple of set bands that I was working with, or we would sit and write together. Um, so we had like, you know, songwriting things and performance things happening through school and outside of school a little bit. Um and I always find it hard to get a good gel of people, which I mean also is not a unique experience. Right.

Lij Shaw: 1:03:19

In other words, you find somebody that you think you might be able to play with, but then they don't necessarily play well together.

Abbie Griffin: 1:03:25

Or they play well together, but then the personalities might have issues. Right. Like, you know, it might be like really great vocal pairings, or one person plays bass really well and one person plays guitar really well, and you think like, oh yeah, this is gonna go really great. And then one person is like, I am gonna shoot for the stars. Like Timothy Chalamet just wanted to he just said, I am inspired by all the greats and I aspire for greatness. Um, and so there are some people like that, and then there are other people that are like, you know, I'd be fine with playing basement shows for the rest of my life. And then there are other people that are like, I don't ever want to be on stage ever again. Sorry, guys, bye. Which is fine, all of that is fine too. But kind of figuring out where your goals are, and what I was saying earlier was like figuring out what you're not good at versus what you are good at and you know what you're what you want and what you don't want is really important because probably changes.

Lij Shaw: 1:04:26

Yeah, it changes, it's a different experience when you're younger. When you're younger, everybody's figuring themselves out. You get a little older, and it's like people are sort of familiar with what where they're at, and that's exciting. Although that can be very limiting too. And then there's a classic um story of people maybe in their twenties embarking on it, and then they start families, and then that changes everything, and so then there might be somebody who's in the band who's ready to go off and really hit the road, and somebody else who's like ready to settle down families.

Abbie Griffin: 1:04:59

Somebody's starting a new job and then can't practice at the same time that practice used to be.

Lij Shaw: 1:05:05

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:05:05

And you're like, well, maybe if you uh didn't pick up that thing, then we could have been at the gig that I planned three months ago. Yeah, yeah, right. Or like the yeah, uh, exactly.

Lij Shaw: 1:05:19

Well, and that's the beauty of um, you know, gig economy and you know, driving Uber and doing the the you know food deliveries and stuff like that is it gives everybody that flexibility to work with freelances.

Abbie Griffin: 1:05:31

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 1:05:32

Yeah. So I really encourage um rock stars who are thinking about, you know, maybe at that stage of trying to figure out how am I going to do the combination of the studio stuff, the music stuff, and work, you know, take advantage of those apps. Yeah. Now, I'm saying that I didn't quite do that because it didn't exist when I was coming up, but I did deliver pizzas and that gave me a bit of flexibility.

Abbie Griffin: 1:05:54

Well, like I wait tables, and so if it's on, you know, not uh the craziest night of the week, you know, I make the most money waiting tables on Friday, Saturday, which is usually gig days too. But if I can do a workaround and work the other nights of the week, I still pretty much make the same and then I have enough time, or if I work the day shift, it'll be like 11 to 4, and then my gig starts at 7. Perfect timing.

Lij Shaw: 1:06:21

If you've if you're one of those people that can go to bed late after a gig and still get up early for the coffee shop.

Abbie Griffin: 1:06:26

Oh, I did that too. Oh, that was hard. Getting up for like 5 a.m. Yep. Oh man.

Lij Shaw: 1:06:32

I had an intern in the studio, Mark Primo. Shout out to you, Mark. Um, who he had that morning routine at Starbucks for a lot for a long time. But of course, he also liked it because Starbucks was one of those places that would give you at that at that time they'd give you health insurance too, or something like that. Yeah, my job is that too. Um, so now talk talk about song or songwriting. What do you love about songwriting? You do I know you were influenced by Joni Mitchell. Like who inspires you in music and songwriting? Because and I just want to preface this by saying, you know, there's the there's the mood and the tone of music that we like too. But at some point, you know, if you get interested in songs, you become really interested in like what a song is and what what are what goes into the words of a song and stuff like that. So, what does that all mean to you and and what gets you excited about it?

Abbie Griffin: 1:07:23

So for me, like I'll start with my inspirations, Joni Mitchell, for sure. But that's kind of a more recent one, actually. I was like, I guess raised on a lot of Beatles, like, and I probably everybody says that, but it's so true. Like both of my grandparents, Beatles diehard fans, and my first album I ever had on CD was the white album. And then I had one day that it broke, the disc two broke, and it was my worst nightmare. I cried, it was so sad. Um, and Michael Jackson, a lot of my mom's lucky number is eight, and that's how many Grammys he won in 1984. I think she said, depending on how many Grammys he wins, that's gonna be my lucky number, and it ends eight. Um and so that's you know, Beatles is for a lot of lyrical stuff in their earlier things, like, you know, the Meet the Beatles or White or Rubber Soul. Um, that kind of vibe. I also uh very much enjoy Abbey Road too, which you know, I'm Abbey, and I have the Abbey Road poster hanging in my room um at home. Uh so yeah, Beatles, Michael Jackson, a lot of Elvis too. And um that's my main like origins kind of. Um, those are all male singer.

Lij Shaw: 1:08:44

Well, Joni Mitchell's female singer.

Abbie Griffin: 1:08:45

But then if I go and think about my newer kind of rebirth, because I I feel as though my songwriting can be broken up into sections of when I was just learning, starting out I was 12, whatever, with my brand new ukulele, and then like my own.

Lij Shaw: 1:09:02

Well, sometimes we start with songs that are just learnable, right?

Abbie Griffin: 1:09:05

Yeah, and I would learn Taylor Swift's songs, and because they were C G A minor D or whatever the basic four chords that she used in, you know, like 60% of her songs of the Fearless album. That was one of my biggest inspirations. And some people are, you know, haters, but I think as a little girl growing up in like a farmish town, I was like, she sees me, she knows me. Right. So my starting out was a ton of Taylor Swift. Let me ask you that.

Lij Shaw: 1:09:39

Yeah, what do you think it is about what she does in those songs that hits the mark just right? That you as a girl growing up on a farm felt like she sees me, she is she hears me. Well, what is it about that? Because I mean that's a kind of an important thing, right?

Abbie Griffin: 1:09:57

Yeah. Um for me personally, she has this her song 15, and it's like about her going to high school for the first time and like learning new things. But that song came out when I was in second grade, but her best friend's name is Abigail, and that was one of the first songs I ever heard by her, and I was like, she's literally speaking to me. And then once I, you know, maybe two years older than that, fourth grade or whatever, on my iPod shuffle, green, green little guy. Um, I think her rawness in her kind of heartbreak loneliness vibe was really speaking to me as you know, a little girl on a farm. She has a couple of songs that are very wistful and very like yearning. And I was bored a lot. And somebody has a quote, I forget who said it, but it's she's every 13-year-old girl's best friend when they're going throughout, you know, a breakup or you know, you belong with me. I felt that so hard, you know, before I had crushes or anything. I was like, oh man, that's that's kind of how I feel about wanting to be everybody's friend. And I was a little bit of a weird girl too. Like I had I was a little off-kilter. Um, but I think everybody feels like that, or majority of people feel like that in their own way. I still feel like it. Yeah, I mean, I definitely still feel like that. I always feel weird, weird girl vibes all the time. Everyone's like, You're so weird. Well, oh, one of my lunch ladies when I was growing up, her nickname for me was Abby Normal. And so on the playground. I just used that quote on the podcast recently. Do you know what it's from? Yeah, yeah.

Lij Shaw: 1:11:47

Young Frankenstein. Yeah, it's crazy.

Abbie Griffin: 1:11:50

What kind of brain did you put in there? Uh Abby something. Abby Normal. Yeah, exactly. So I think she, even in her interviews and stuff, always felt a little off and a little weird. And she just wrote that in her songs. And I think that some people don't like them because they're not necessarily too complex, at least her older things, like you know, her debut album, her fearless album, Speak Now, or whatever. Um, they're very plain and simple. She's telling a story, how it happened to her, and literally how it made her feel. And I think that's like the basis of all songwriting is how it happened, telling the story, how it made you feel, and then from that, you release that or or perform it or whatever. And that's exactly what the audience is gonna tell you, and what the audience is gonna feel. They're gonna follow that story in their brain of something that resonates, like a little part of them that resonates with that, and how that experience made them feel. It's not gonna be the same experience that the writer had. It's not gonna be the same feeling that the writer had.

Lij Shaw: 1:12:57

But is this is this sort of to the point of you know, show don't tell?

Abbie Griffin: 1:13:01

Mm-hmm.

Lij Shaw: 1:13:02

I think when you describe and show something in a song lyric, then somebody it evokes an image and then they write their own version of it in their head.

Abbie Griffin: 1:13:12

I really think that that's important, but show don't tell was always a little weird for me because I was like, well, I want to tell them about my experience. I want to tell them about my life.

Lij Shaw: 1:13:24

And like what do you think of when you when you think of that? Are there example lyrics that ever come to mind?

Abbie Griffin: 1:13:29

Well, if I think about if we're going on the Taylor Swift thing, I think it's a really good, easy bass line to think about songwriting, is like the song 15 is the line with Abigail. Like you sit in class next to a redhead named Abigail, and soon enough your best friends laughing at the other girls who think they're so cool. We'll get out of here as soon as we can. And she that song is literally linear talking about her story, and it's telling the audience, but it's the song that resonated with me the most. And then there's songs like I don't know, if we're going on her or like a Beatles song. I think those are very plain and simple as well. Like, drive my car, like baby you can drive my car, I guess I'm gonna be a star, maybe you can drive my car, and maybe I love you. And it's that's that's it. Um and everyone's like, you know? Yeah, um, however, you get into things that are I think that's a lot of telling and less showing, and I think showing can be in the way of you're showing them the the things that you went through, um, and showing the the story because of your describing what happened. Um and like for me when I was hearing that Taylor Swift song, I was thinking, oh well, I I'm the Abigail. Who am I the Abigail of? What story is this gonna be for me? Oh, I want to have you know those experiences like that when I was growing up. I was like, I want to be like that, like I wanna choose my own kind of thing. And then I think about songs that are like based on poetry, or even for my own songs. I wrote um, I composed the music for two-headed calf, and it's based on a poem by Laura Gilpin, and it's completely poetry. All of the lyrics, they're none of mine. Um, but that song is telling a story about how the calf was born with two heads and then died the night that they were born.

Lij Shaw: 1:15:42

And is that on live from Oni's house? Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So, Rockstars, we have that link in the show notes. So if you want to check out the music Abby's making, um, you know, she's got a great sounding voice, you know, nice um acoustic guitars. It's a very simple thing. It sounds like it was in the moment.

Abbie Griffin: 1:15:59

Well, that we can go into that too, of how I recorded too. Sure, if you want, yeah, yeah, tell us.

Lij Shaw: 1:16:04

But for like isn't one of the songs, isn't there just a voice memo?

Abbie Griffin: 1:16:07

Yeah, it is literally. Um, but for songwriting, there's a poetry aspect, and so that poem, I was inspired by that because I saw somebody make a TikTok or something about it, and they were like really analyzing the words because I had read the poem in high school and I was like, oh, okay, whatever. I was always into Shakespeare, and that's what I do too, to get inspiration and to kind of take a break from listening to the.

Lij Shaw: 1:16:31

Can you quote a Shakespeare line right now?

Abbie Griffin: 1:16:33

To be or not to be that there you go. Um But there's a sonnet too that I was inspired by for one of my other songs that isn't out yet. Um, but I sit and read a lot of poetry, and I think that's a lot of showing, not telling. Shakespeare, some people might disagree with that he tells a lot, but because of his plays.

Lij Shaw: 1:16:55

Well, it's because of the way he says stuff you said. What is it? What's the idea? I'm gonna mess this up, but uh, if music be the food of love, then play on, play on. That the appetite in surfiting may so sicken and die.

Abbie Griffin: 1:17:09

Yes. What a line. Yeah, wow. That's right off the items.

Lij Shaw: 1:17:15

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Abbie Griffin: 1:18:10

But a lot of his stuff was meant to be performed and was meant to be stage productions. And whereas his sonnets are a little more poetry-based, a little more rhymey, have they've got the iambic pentameter. But like for uh two-headed calf, it's telling you the story of the two-headed calf, but really it's showing the experience of the scarcity and importance of life as it is. And there's a whole different feeling that comes from the words. The words are about, you know, the calf spending its life with its mother, and its life was, you know, fleeting. It's one day or, you know, a morning and a night. Um, or it was born in the night and then, you know, died before the dawn. And there's something beautiful about the showing ability and how those lyrics about a literal farm animal can resonate with somebody and be like, oh, you know, this story reminds me of this one day, or it reminds me of my grandpa, or it reminds me of the hardships that I've had to go through as like being a weird girl, but it's a story about a farm animal. So show show not tell to me, I kind of almost disagree with it because I think you can show a lot by telling somebody something.

Lij Shaw: 1:19:36

Right. But so you're you use the Taylor Swift verse as an example, and and maybe we can review that again, but it's kind of a version of showing, right? It doesn't, did she say in the verse, this is the way you're supposed to feel?

Abbie Griffin: 1:19:50

I think that's where people get confused, too.

Lij Shaw: 1:19:52

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:19:52

No, not at all. I think telling the audience how they're supposed to feel what who are you to tell?

Lij Shaw: 1:19:59

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:20:00

There's this thing that um my acting for the screen teacher, she used a lot of like, well, this is this is going a little off the path, but like Uda Hagen, and you're not supposed to have in the stage directions, you know, the actor's gonna feel like blank. The line and getting into character is gonna tell you how the actor would, you know, how your character would react to something like that. Like acting is reacting. And I think in songwriting it's the exact same thing. If you want your audience to resonate, I think you've got to like not put the feelings in the stage directions. So not putting the, you know, I felt sad today kind of song.

Lij Shaw: 1:20:45

Um unless you're being ironic.

Abbie Griffin: 1:20:48

Unless you're like weird owl or like somebody. Um but I think leaving the I I struggle a lot with trying to find the the root of the meaning as a songwriter of other songs. And I have arguments all the time about like what songs mean, but really it means something unique to everybody if it resonates with you in a certain way. Way it does, but I think as a writer, I get kind of intellectual about certain songs, and I'm like, I want to know the real, the real one. And how are you?

Lij Shaw: 1:21:17

Are you good with words? Do you do you sort of know all the words to songs? I mean, you just quoted Taylor Swift. So that to me is something I've really noticed. There's a difference. Um, I've known particularly with women, I've known people who are great at knowing what the words are. And for me, I'm like, what are the words to that song? You know, and I and I discover them at the sometimes I'll produce a record and I get to the end of the record, and I'm like, oh, those are now I get it.

Abbie Griffin: 1:21:42

I just talked, I just had an interview with Pat Metheny, and I just talked with him about that. And he said when he was working with Joni Mitchell, he was like, you know, she's all about her lyrics, but honestly, when I was playing guitar in her tracks, I had no idea what she was saying. And so some people are talking about the sonic elements and phrasing and how that affects them emotionally. And I think other people, like, you know, if you compare Pat versus Joni, Joni is like gonna talk about California, gonna talk about her relationships, like same as Taylor Swift. They're gonna talk about, you know, stories and things that happen to them. Meanwhile, like Pat Methaney can play guitar on the track, not know anything what's happening, but know exactly how it makes it feel. And that's a little bit of the show and tell aspect that push and pull musically. I think you can show a lot. Yeah. And I think there are ways of telling things musically by using like your, you know, one, four, five, go through the motions of a sad song and you're gonna use minor chords, or you could leave that up to interpretation of, you know, your lyrics are gonna be sweet and your music's gonna be minor, and then it's up to the audience which meaning they take from it.

Lij Shaw: 1:22:57

Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. When so let's rewind a sec. You just said I had just had a uh interview with Pat Matheny. Yeah. Does that mean you were listening to one, or did you get a chance to no?

Abbie Griffin: 1:23:05

I got a chance to sit down with him. Really? Yeah. It's tell us all about that. So I don't know where it's gonna be posted. Uh we gotta figure out somewhere.

Lij Shaw: 1:23:13

But keep it out of context.

Abbie Griffin: 1:23:15

Yeah, yeah. So I got a chance to sit down with him. And we I had a lot of questions for him that were like, you know, from from the production, and they wanted to know some specific things about like his opinions on stuff, but I really wanted to know how you know things affected him on a creative and emotional aspect because he had been talking, you know, at my school. Um and he was at like an immersive residency program thing. So he was doing a lot of talking about chords and technique, and I wanted to know his philosophies more. And so I got a chance to sit down and talk to him, and he brought new perspectives to certain things that I had not even thought about. Um, and one of the things that resonated with me the most was he talked about kind of sticking to his guns and being the most himself from day one. And he was talking about how he sees his musical journey as a song, as a storybook, and each album as a chapter, and like that chapter can't really ever be edited again if he were to go back because he's constantly changing, but it'll all still be in that same book and that same it's still him, and he's been him from day one, and he told me a story of how once he released his very first album, he was like, All right, okay, this only sold 800 copies.

Lij Shaw: 1:24:53

Was that American Garage? Do you know? I think I mean then you might I don't know if you know his discography very well.

Abbie Griffin: 1:24:59

It was I'll look it up.

Lij Shaw: 1:25:02

I'll look it up while we're chatting.

Abbie Griffin: 1:25:04

Um, but he talked about it and he was so disappointed. He was like, All right, I guess we're gonna go on to the next one. We're gonna see, see what else I can do. I think I have to do something different. I maybe, but he really just felt confident that he put it out. He was like, All right, it is what it is. A radical acceptance, and that's what my therapist says too. Um, but I I'm gonna radically accept that it just only sold 800. And then he said 15 years later, people were coming to him after he had released, you know, two or three or four or whatever more albums, and he saw that it went, you know, gold, and they resonated it resonated with it like crazy. People come up to him after shows and be like, I remember when you put out that first album, and that like changed my life. And he told me when he looked back and it only made 800 copies, how much that didn't matter because as long as it resonated with somebody, yeah, that was the point. Yeah. Um and then he told me to sometimes yeah, exactly. Well, he told me to like stick stick to what makes you you and being yourself, and it'll like be fruitful as long as you stick with that. Like if you're constantly changing and pandering towards other people's, you know, ideals or anything, you're never really gonna find your fit because you'll be floundering a little bit. Right. Um, but he told me too. I was like, I don't I have less than a thousand streams on every single song that I released, and I released like six of them. Um, and I felt really discouraged, or in my recording process, like I didn't even release anything, and my mom was like, Oh, those songs are so good, we've got to put them out. And they didn't really resonate with me. Um thanks, mom. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, mom. Moms are the best. Yeah, she she was like, Oh, why don't you just release that song like already? And I'm like, get her. She doesn't want to be great. She does sound like um, she sounds just like me, actually. But he said, Well, just stick with it because you don't know if in 15 years it's gonna go gold and you're gonna have people coming up to you liking that album more than your most recent one. You have no idea.

Lij Shaw: 1:27:24

So this says if his first one was 1978 Pat Matheny group, second one was American Garage. Um, I when when I was in high school, yeah, he was playing in Providence, Rhode Island. So I had my grandmother's um old conversion van and I filled it with my friends from high school. Yeah. We drove down there for a night. That's awesome. The song next to her, which was really wild, really wild. They had like two of everything. Yeah, Coleman was playing with him. That's awesome.

Abbie Griffin: 1:27:52

And he had he told me, he was like, Oh yeah, you know, like Chickory Hurry, Herbie Hancock. He just played with so many greats, and I asked him a question about um if that really influenced you and your, you know, your further um works. He was like, honestly, I think it influenced those works, and I think I'm still me. And that was really interesting to me. And he was like, I think I look back and I see a lot of growth from myself, but it's still all very me. And I don't think I ever really changed fundamentally who I am as a person because of who I've met, but I think that you know, emotionally it has influenced my journey. Um but he was like he he just such a unique thing. He was like, I know I'm just always me all the time. This is just how I am, this is how I play, this is what I've got to do, and I'm gonna constantly, you know, evolve and create and improve, but it's gonna be me concretely all the time.

Lij Shaw: 1:28:55

Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 1:28:56

And I struggled so much with that. And then I released this last project, and it it was like, you know, if I if I could talk a little bit about that, it was we me and my engineer. He I sent him a voice memo, and it was of me, my grandma, and my dad singing and playing one of the songs that my grandpa wrote out on our front porch, on my grandma's front porch, and he was like, You have to record this. Uh I don't know, maybe do I record it? Blah blah blah blah. I don't know if it's the greatest song, blah, blah, blah. He was like, No, you're we're sitting down and recording it. So we sat down um on just right before two days before Christmas on that Sunday before December 2024. Um, and we sat down for like six hours and recorded five or four songs, and then we sat down the next week and recorded, you know, two more. And then I had a voice memo of a song that my grandpa just wrote. But we sat down and we captured everything with mixed free six in my grandma's living room, and my whole family was around me setting up for Christmas and cleaning, and they were eating, and there was like laughing and talking and everything. Everybody was around, and we would have all right, everybody quiet for four minutes as we're gonna record this song, and then you can come go back to chatting and yapping and whatever. Um, and we did multiple takes of stuff, but it was really super live and super in the moment, very as is. We're not gonna edit anything, we're gonna do barely any processing, we're gonna put it together very, very live, very, very natural, organic sounding. And I wanted it to live in its own moment. And so then when Pat said it's a storybook and a chapter, that to me was the best chapter I could have put out as my first one because it was like my family origins, my everything, but it was so lived in that moment and like a little pocket in time.

Lij Shaw: 1:31:04

Yeah. Um and this so the beauty of that, so some things have come to mind. One is the wonderfulness about how when you're young and you do recordings and sessions, they're such a big they represent such a big chunk of your experience. Yeah. You know, when you get a like after you do many, many, many, many, you know, they they you do you're just uh, you know, they they come uh occupy maybe smaller parts of the I do feel like a little baby when I was like, This is my first ever brother. But it's great, but then also like you know, to your point, it's like even if you could have done a better version later, you can't go back and get that and have that moment again. So that's why it's really nice to capture moments and just do things when it's the time, you know.

Abbie Griffin: 1:31:48

And the number I had like divine timing or something because the day that that released, my grandmother passed away. Oh wow, and she sang on the title track.

Lij Shaw: 1:31:58

Oh, aren't you so glad?

Abbie Griffin: 1:32:01

And my whole family had that to listen to and to process and to while we were, you know, grieving from that, and it's still really hard now. But like I if I hadn't done that, I would have never had anything. Or she she also had she was an artist and she had like a recording contract kind of thing. She had a duo when she was younger, and it was like when she was in college, like my age, 22-ish. Um, and then like her partner left, and then it was a whole big drama thing, and then she moved to New Jersey and never really did music again, besides in church and for, you know, singing odds and ends here and there, and she never got to release anything. And so if I didn't sit down and just make it happen right then and there, you know, commit to that being a moment, she never would have released anything. And she released her first ever song ten hours before she passed away.

Lij Shaw: 1:32:58

Wow.

Abbie Griffin: 1:32:58

And so like that's very poignant. I I had no idea that I was gonna it was gonna be timing like that. I had no plan. We had no idea. She was 72 and we had no idea that it was gonna like, you know, things were gonna take a turn for the worse or whatever. But yeah, like if I hadn't done that, I you could never ever go back. Like you can't, you know, I think with like digital, it the undo button, like there isn't a life undo button, and taking things in stride like as they come to you is really important. And I learned I my my thing about my life is I learned everything the hard way because I have to go through it. I kind of have to suffer all the time, and you know, I'm not you know, woe is me about it, but I do have to do things in uh I've gotta do it and experience it. People can't tell me I won't listen. I've gotta do it and live it. And that was like the biggest experience that I could have had in that way of doing things now. And no matter the quality, I was like, you know, my my song Mother was not my greatest performance, but I talked with my engineer and I I said, we have to put this out because you know, I wrote it about her when I found out she had breast cancer uh one whole year before. Um, and that's not even what she passed from. Um I sang it in my kitchen in her kitchen to her after going into the city as she got treatment for it, and that's the day like that she found out. And I was like, so that story behind it has to be on this album or live from Oni's house is we sat there, it was the last time before, you know, it was that time my family was together. On Christmas, my family was together, and then the week that she passed, my family was together.

Lij Shaw: 1:34:52

Well, that's the thing about, you know, as we get over two families, you know, family gatherings. Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 1:34:59

Yeah, unfortunately. But if we hadn't created that, it would have never Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 1:35:05

No, I think it's great. Are you ready to launch your career in the audio or entertainment business? SAE Institute National, right here in the heart of Music Row, offers hands-on programs to prepare you for the industry from studio production and live sound to audio for film and a whole lot more. You'll learn by doing it, working with professional grade gear alongside experienced industry promoters. If you're more into the business side of entertainment, SAE's entertainment business program teaches essential basics like contracts and promotion to help you navigate the industry. With diploma, associate, or bachelor's degrees, there's a path for everyone. Plus, career services supports graduates as they take the next step. Want to see it for yourself? Immerse yourself in Nashville's exciting music scene and book a tour today at Nashville.sae.edu or call 615-244-584. Um, so so to that point too, let's talk about the songwriting some more, too. So, like what what do you feel like is your daily songwriting routine? Um, where do you find inspiration for what you want to write about?

Abbie Griffin: 1:36:17

From anywhere. I know I feel like a lot of people say that, but from things that make me feel a specific way, or like any any way that feel makes me feel strongly. So if I see, you know, the light just streaming through the windows at the exact perfect shade of color through like with a pattern, that'll inspire me to write a little thing in my notes app.

Lij Shaw: 1:36:41

What's what is the notes app? Is it like a phone thing?

Abbie Griffin: 1:36:44

Like literally.

Lij Shaw: 1:36:44

I see you've got your phone right there.

Abbie Griffin: 1:36:46

On my on my iPhone.

Lij Shaw: 1:36:47

I've got um so you just like jot down an idea for something and then so okay, so now you have I title my notes songs. It's great, and it's it's a great um, it's a common way to capture things. But then the next part of the stage is like, but then you have to go back through the stuff. If you just have a collection of stuff and you never go back through it, right? Sometimes I never go back through. So what do you what do you what do you want to say about that? What works for you or doesn't work, or where do you beat yourself up, all that stuff? Like all this.

Abbie Griffin: 1:37:16

So uh sometimes I have an idea and I'm like uh last week I was practicing for my guitar concert, and then I made a wrong note and I made a weird riff, and I kept repeating it, and I had stuff to do that day.

Lij Shaw: 1:37:31

What's your guitar concert?

Abbie Griffin: 1:37:33

It was like uh strings and piano or a guitar class whatever you call it. Classical night, and it was literally I performed on a Wednesday with you know in my in the concert hall at the time.

Lij Shaw: 1:37:46

Was it like a classical piece you had to learn in a traditional style?

Abbie Griffin: 1:37:49

It was gonna be, and then my guitar lessons usually are just therapy sessions, and I show him my songs, and he was like, You're gonna perform that. Don't even work on whatever we were just working on, you're gonna perform that. And so I was practicing an original, and then it sparked a different original based on the riff, and then I like was supposed to go and do my work, and I have a problem with um doing music instead of doing work. That's kind of what I'm doing right now, right?

Lij Shaw: 1:38:18

Right, right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:38:19

Um, which is awesome. It's my favorite thing to do, not do work and do music instead of doing it.

Lij Shaw: 1:38:23

I like doing music so much more than I like doing work.

Abbie Griffin: 1:38:25

So much better.

Lij Shaw: 1:38:26

And I I get caught thinking I gotta do all this work so I can do the music, and I and I feel like sometimes that's false thinking.

Abbie Griffin: 1:38:32

Yeah. So I sat down, canceled whatever I had, and for the next two hours I sat and wrote the whole song start to finish. And I'm gonna go back and edit it. But the most recent songs have been sit down. It I feel like a conduit for some kind of emotion is speaking to me through this guitar riff, through the way the window looks, through where I am right now. And if I don't get it out, I'm never going to again. And you know, Paul McCartney has a thing about he, you know, woke up in the middle of the night and writes some stuff that he was imagining in his brain, or there's so many stories of you're writing on a diner napkin, and there's a lot of things like that that I do with my notes app, and they never become anything, or I have those kind of inspiration moments. And you don't you shouldn't wait for inspiration to strike, but I keep the log of those song ideas so that when I'm in a mood to sit down or I have the time or I book out time like in my schedule to sit down and go back through and write things, or if I have a chorus, I'll go back through my little Just pick one of them. Yeah, my dad calls them seeds, song seeds, and I'll see what kind of resonates with that emotion or that feeling, or I have a chord progression that I really like, and I'm like, let's see if something can come up.

Lij Shaw: 1:39:52

So there's some and it's like when you plant six seeds and then you pluck all the ones that didn't grow very much, toss them and just go with it, go with the germinating. Looking pretty good.

Abbie Griffin: 1:40:02

Yeah. I'll and some of them I'll leave, like most of them I just leave as they are, and some will be two sentences of like something weird, and I can use that as the start to a chorus, or I'll repeat that, and then it'll become its own song, or I'll have moments where I sit down, I have a chord progression, and I have a way that the song is gonna go, and then I'm searching through all my seeds to see what I can plug in into the song. And that's a little more granular, a little more intellectual than like a inspiration hits moment.

Lij Shaw: 1:40:39

Do you feel like there's an obligation to always use and plug in what's already been started? Or do you feel uh do you feel like it's easy for you to look at something that's in the song seeds notes, think, oh, I'm gonna work on this, but then next thing you know, you're just writing new stuff. Is that tricky sometimes?

Abbie Griffin: 1:41:00

Yeah. Um a lot of the time I'll take a seed and I have, you know, um like a my moleskin kind of songbook, and I'll take a seed. seed, write out that seed on one side and do a free write kind of any words that come out, stream of consciousness vibe, and I'll have the chord progression and the structure on the other side and I'll see what works. But it all comes from that one seed. And then if I'm getting really stuck, I'll go back through those either that free write or other stuff that I've written in the past, other seeds, and mix and match and then free write out of that.

Lij Shaw: 1:41:39

Yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 1:41:40

Um or sometimes it'll be like full pieces of poetry that I write in my notes.

Lij Shaw: 1:41:46

So you mentioned having a mole skin notebook. So a couple of thoughts come to mind. One is the moleskin notebook is always the one that costs like three times as much as the the the cheap you know composition book sitting right next to it. Yeah. But maybe you know people who do this often and well seem to get stuff like that. And maybe there's something about like the preciousness of it that makes it like you're doing something that's valuable.

Abbie Griffin: 1:42:11

One of them has my name on it from an ex-boyfriend many years ago. But that's like the emotion is so fueled in that thing.

Lij Shaw: 1:42:20

Right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:42:21

Um from like a lot of different a lot of different angles from in the relationship and then out of it. But I think I'm a very tactile person and I think it can depend to I some people just write in their no tap only. But I feel as though writing with my like leathery book with thicker pages with a black Dixon Ticonderoga pencil. Thanks dad um no you you might have a different brand you've got to upgrade because the Dixon Ticonderoga is so smooth.

Lij Shaw: 1:42:55

Wait, does mine say Amazon special?

Abbie Griffin: 1:42:57

Does this is this Amazon basics? But having um it's like a ritual kind of thing. Yeah. And I I've been doing a lot of rituals like my yoga stuff but um sitting down and yeah.

Lij Shaw: 1:43:09

To that point what makes a lot of sense to me now just thinking about it, because I'm just going to steal all your good ideas on this do that because it's like so the the app on the phone is perfect because in the moment that the thing happens the seed idea you just that's all you have with you. So why not use it and put it in there very complicated. But in the moment when you're sitting down to work on stuff it's an intentional moment. So that like in that moment we know that we're going to be doing it so it's not hard for us to grab the notebook and the pencil and have everything with us.

Abbie Griffin: 1:43:42

And then you've got the two open the pencil the page both pages open and the phone and other seeds like if I have I also am a lover of post-it notes too. And that'll be any pen, any pencil, any notebook, any whatever seed somewhere.

Lij Shaw: 1:43:58

And I lose track of a lot of them because well also don't wait don't um serial serial killers and and like you know like crack detectives also love post-it notes.

Abbie Griffin: 1:44:08

Yes no literally yeah exactly um well songwriters serial killers detectives all a little crazy yeah I think anyone who does music for a living at screen office office max.

Lij Shaw: 1:44:24

So that's cool. So then um what about the uh like you know you get into writing something and you get it's easy to get like I would pick up the guitar and some for a long time I'd play the first chords would be like an A and a D. And I'm like I gotta play something different on the guitar. So how do you stir things up and deconstruct your own songs?

Abbie Griffin: 1:44:42

Okay. Um my favorite thing to do is weird tuning. Well and then Joni Mitchell says if you're struggling in one art form, you have to go take a break from that art and do another form of art something else. And so she did a lot of painting um and it can be different instruments you pick up and then you learn something new on the drums and you might have a better insight into somewhere something else that you're gonna play on guitar. Or for me my go-to is different tuning. I have a lot of songs in drop D, open D. I love open D. And I've been doing like open C and another tuning that is like almost every single string is C besides one I think is a G.

Lij Shaw: 1:45:29

Do you remember to tell yourself what the tuning is when you record it or do you come back later and you're like what in the hell is I doing most of the time it's a what in the hell am I doing?

Abbie Griffin: 1:45:38

Um but sometimes like if it's a sit down right moment like I have I also have a candle that's inspiration. It's a very specific scent so I've pavloved myself into whenever that candle is lit, I feel like I really want to write a song.

Lij Shaw: 1:45:51

Good call.

Abbie Griffin: 1:45:52

Yeah. It there's a lot of philosophical uh psychological things that I do for myself. But I try and write down as much as possible or for experimenting on new stuff if I'm feeling stuck in a guitar riff um a lot of the time I will listen to songs that are similar and chord progression or anything. And I'm like, oh is that a suspended chord? Oh is that a what different voicing can I use up the neck that's maybe different? Or is there a riff somewhere that sort of fits and I do a lot of voice memo recording my voice memos on my phone app is like 49 gigabytes.

Lij Shaw: 1:46:34

Do you like the new feature where you can overdub on your voice memo app?

Abbie Griffin: 1:46:38

So I haven't updated my iOS yet but I heard of that feature and I freaked out because that's I have been so what I do is I use I play the riff or the chords or whatever over and over and over and over again and see what else can be done with it. Or I listen to that thing only and like I don't have a lot of listening minutes on Spotify because I listen to so many of my voice memos on repeat. And I think overlaying things like playing a second guitar part over your first might change that first one or you might find a different chord voicing that you could use and I think it's a lot of listening and experimenting and doing things on repeat too.

Lij Shaw: 1:47:22

And plus uh it gives you the ability to double a vocal and stuff like that. Yeah I mean I mean and the voice memo it's a little bit more or like playing guitar and then vocal over top track one and track two so it's not tons. But like doing the vocal over it. I just did one for um just just now just today or yesterday I did it it was my stepdad's birthday so I I sang happy birthday and then I sent it to my brother then he put an overdub on it and now I'm sending that to my sister so she can put a harmony on it. Yes. Because we're in three different places and we'll send it to him.

Abbie Griffin: 1:47:51

Yeah. I used to do like the export the voice memo to the garage band app and then repeat and then would sing oh it was like I know it's just too complicated.

Lij Shaw: 1:48:01

I tried that stuff too and it's like it just drives you bananas.

Abbie Griffin: 1:48:04

And I don't want to get out my whole interface but now that feature is really great because before I would literally be listening to it on repeat and wish I could record.

Lij Shaw: 1:48:14

Well and the other thing that it does I believe is it integrates now this whole STEM technology. So basically because you're you're you don't have to use headphones so you just you're lit you're singing along to the speaker recording you know speaker off your iPhone and it's recording your voice and it's recording the bleed of the guitar coming back through but it knows it then it then it you know stem extracts and isolates the voice so that it doesn't sound like a total disaster.

Abbie Griffin: 1:48:40

I have to upgrade my phone to do it. I've done it on one of my friends' phones too and mind blown um but I know that that's going to be so so useful.

Lij Shaw: 1:48:50

It'll be interesting to see in what ways people come up with like nobody ever thought of that. I can't believe that's how what you came up with super brilliant. So let's talk let's stay on that so um discuss the rapid change and difference or excuse me yeah and difference of music technology with AI and the tr traditional versus modern description of what a producer does. So that's a long-winded question there. But basically you know we're surrounded by so many cool new tools that are coming along that stem extractor one is to me is a great example of I've used that a lot. Well it gets it gets presented as if you're gonna pull the vocal out of something and then listen to the vocal and go, wow, that's just the vocal and then you know you might hear it and be like oh that doesn't quite sound like a real recording the voice then you get stuck I feel like you get it's easy to get stuck on um uh being critical of the wrong aspect of a new tool not realizing that it can be incredibly useful for something else. Yeah. For example like in a voice memo and vocal demo you know I put on the the vocal stem feature and remove the guitar and it leaves just the voice or remove the voice and leave just the guitar and it was like wow that really works well for part of the you know particularly for pre-production processes for songwriting things like that. So you know what what kind of stuff gets you really excited right now?

Abbie Griffin: 1:50:21

I have had a lot of experience using that feature in the opposite way in the post-production. So I did like you know some clips of editing together like a sizzle-ish reel of um Roseanne Cash and I took out some of her um interview things and she has some really great great quotes that were overlaid with one of her songs of acoustic guitar in the background or drums in the background and I did a lot of um Serato Pro has uh like stem separators and so I did that for vocals and I took out the speech from the guitar and there was some overlap but if I had another guitar track playing underneath it was really disguised and that was awesome to work with.

Lij Shaw: 1:51:06

So you were able you were left with the music without the voice talking the other way around. I was left with the voice talking without the music in the background which you didn't need in that moment.

Abbie Griffin: 1:51:14

That was exactly perfect for what I needed um so I want to see how I can work with that in the in the songwriting way. I haven't really tried it yet but I think you're giving me inspo to to do that new terminology rock stars that probably means inspiration. It does mean inspiration.

Lij Shaw: 1:51:37

For those of you that aren't 22 um yeah yeah and so what other kind of tools I mean like you know another common discussion of AI is is things that make the music for you or then people you know inevitably somebody comes along and says oh I want AI to do my laundry and mow the lawn not make my creative arts for me. Yeah. And it's an easy one to like that's an easy punch to pull I think yeah and as I think about it more I'm like yeah but um it you if you want to focus on the creative side you can use these tools to help you do the laundry and the lawn mowing that you didn't want to do or vice versa. Maybe there's somebody out there who's great at the laundry and the lawn mowing and doesn't and you know the creative part is the part they don't want to do.

Abbie Griffin: 1:52:27

So anyways like um I think AI should be used as a tool the most to help the creative process. I think there is some some interest in you know in using AI for a creative thing. Like you know the the AI art have you seen um like visual I think that can be really cool and I think that can be like a fun expression. But I think a lot of the time that kind of stuff takes away from the artists who you know really dedicate time to developing their craft and put in the you know the the 10,000 hours that I think really is irreplaceable with AI. I really don't think that someone should be able to like make money off of using it as a creative tool like you know putting in um a prompt like I I think that there's a lot of things about creating art with AI that you have to be really um like articulate about what you want right going in like if you've used Chat GPT like well I have with college and definitely not answers for stuff. But you have to be very specific on what you want and I think there's a skill in that.

Lij Shaw: 1:53:49

Don't worry this will come out after you receive your diploma.

Abbie Griffin: 1:53:52

Please um yeah hopefully um but I think there's a lot of things that you can use for tools especially in post-production and especially in music recording and editing there's a lot of AI tools and there's a lot of um things for dialogue I've used the most for um like uh you know the cancellation the stem separating and that has been so helpful in the pursuit of a creative project and really using AI as a tool generative or or not AI I think are you recording your own music or other people's music in your studio but you're having trouble figuring out how to get your mixes to sound great?

Lij Shaw: 1:54:39

Do they sound weak and distant or lack punch and clarity? Well I've got a gift for you to help you take your mixes from sounding like basement demos to sounding a lot more like professional mixes. And it's my free course called Mixmaster Bundle. This course will show you how to get pro sounding mixes from your home studio with free and stock plugins and pro tools and the best part is these mixing techniques will work for you in any DOW whether you're in Logic, Cubase, Presona Studio One, Reaper, or anything you can think of. Are you ready to make your best record ever? Then go to Mixmasterbundle.com to get started for free now and you can find the clickable link in the show notes of this episode. Well I think it's easy to say use the example of oh somebody put in their 10,000 hours and now somebody you know an AI thing comes along and steals it from them. So A, I don't think it exactly does that. No I think it's I think it um just evokes something that you know feels like that thing we want in a lot of situations. And B, you know the next question that comes to mind is is why doesn't the artist go use the AI as part of their tool set unless they just don't want to and if you don't want to if you want to do everything with a paintbrush and paint and that's not your thing then that's fine go do that well like even in Photoshop I've used the um like AI generative fill for creating different backgrounds on things and it's really it's been really helpful right for stuff like that. Right.

Abbie Griffin: 1:56:05

But I know what I want I know the vision and I know what I want it to look like. I want to know the feeling that it evokes I want to know that kind of energy and I think that is where the AI, you know, it's not gonna steal our jobs. I really don't think so maybe but I don't think it's like a a doom terrorizing the robots are taking over thing. I think it is supplemental. Right. And I think like yeah with the feeling and the artist putting in their 10,000 hours they have to have the insight and um wisdom to know what they want and so putting in the prompt or using the AI in their tool set to get to that destination. I think you still have to have the the skills to know what it is that you want. That's the whole thing about the producer thing and to like integrate that to is the producer you have to put together all the puzzle pieces to find that end result of that collaborative goal of what you want. And I think that's how an artist or someone who's using AI can use it in conjunction with the things that they already know about. Yeah. And even even my production stuff like if I can't play the drums the right way I'll bring in somebody else to do it for me. And that their intelligence and their wisdom about that instrument with my prompts of saying oh can you do sixteenth on the hat and then give it a 60s whatever surf rock kind of vibe but they'll then create that of their own. I think that's the exact same as using AI in a the creative process.

Lij Shaw: 1:57:51

Right. Well I mean you know you have also an ever-changing landscape of technology. I mean it's like you know if you if you focus entirely on one chapter of technology and that becomes your thing and then the tech inevitably you know it'll always change yeah the world keeps moving keeps moving without us so it's like you know it's it's always up to us to to uh adapt and change and try and like look forward and try and and if we don't want to do certain things you know figure out how to focus on the things we do want to do and make them work. Exactly and things come around in cycles too we were talking about you know the the Mackie mixer earlier and you know the idea of analog tape and then along comes the home studio and digital and then you know analog tape starts coming back again and you've got got Chris Mara with Welcome to 1979 who very intentionally built a studio on Nashville who's like I'm just gonna really stay focused on you know this the a snapshot of 1979 and make that the thing and they're and he did he's doing it very well.

Abbie Griffin: 1:58:58

And there's a place for that.

Lij Shaw: 1:58:58

Right and then vinyl records you know if you're if your focus was all vinyl and then along comes digital and they make CDs of the vinyl and then you're just like you know and now people go shopping for like oh I have the coveted LP of whatever favorite artist like it's like a aesthetic trend thing.

Abbie Griffin: 1:59:16

But for for so long it was obsolete.

Lij Shaw: 1:59:18

So to me like you it's much more interesting to think about you know the the new tools that are coming and how to still be creative with them because you know we still bring what we want. It's all about that process. So what what kind of tools do you think of now? Like what which ones are you exploring and have you found interesting as far as making music? I think I mean you mentioned the stems and chat GPT. And uh do you know people that are using the you know the Suno AI and the music maker ones to actually help them make music?

Abbie Griffin: 1:59:53

No. I most of my I mean I guess in my circles or whatever, people are leaning more and more towards older kinds of technology. Right um and maybe it's just because of like I guess how old I am people are like rediscovering the things that have been around for forever. Yeah um what do you think of when you say that like me and my friend group have a real like fascination with tape and tape heads and the tape saturation and how it sounds um and we are all like in love with that sound um and of how it works and the functionality and everything.

Lij Shaw: 2:00:32

Do you find plug-in versions of tape fascinating?

Abbie Griffin: 2:00:34

Yeah I think there are some that are like cool. I haven't really used many um I've been focusing on trying to get the analog sound like from the source really good but I think in searching for there's some waves plugins that are pretty good for um there's the one it has like it it changes the tape um what it looks like tape form and you can pick yeah and that one's really cool I used that one most recently in my mixing the Abbey Road one maybe yeah I think so there's that one and then there's another one

Lij Shaw: 2:01:10

Um it's a lot of tape emulators out there.

Abbie Griffin: 2:01:14

Some of those are pretty good though. Um and then in other technology like I've used the most is um DX Revive Pro. And so that's really good for isolating, and that's more post-production, not necessarily music. Um, but DX Revive is really great if you're wanting to separate, or if you have headphone bleed too, you can it's it has that stem isolation kind of separator. And it's really good for that.

Lij Shaw: 2:01:43

Um now do you have friends um or do you yourself get excited about the idea of an old tape machine and recording to that and then sort of like the computer?

Abbie Griffin: 2:01:53

Yeah, definitely. I want to experience more of that. Um, but one of my professors had me at his studio clean all the tape heads, the everything. He had me clean and then take up take it apart and put it back together. And that was a really good experience because it was so different than anything I'd touched ever before. Um because it's like, I don't know, it's it's similar, I guess, to cassette in a way of the you know, the playback and record. And yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. That was the Michael Jackson we had um the radio with the cassette player.

Lij Shaw: 2:02:31

Uh but do you have a way to do you have a cassette that will record so you can record onto it and play it back for a second? Yeah, yeah, that's a fun one.

Abbie Griffin: 2:02:37

In my in my dad's rack. Um I haven't yet, but I w I want to get into that, the older stuff. I a lot of it's like question marks for me because me and my friend group is so we're all so into learning the Pro Tools and in the box and that kind of mixing because it's so much easier in the accessibility.

Lij Shaw: 2:02:58

And there's a lot to think, is like, you know, I walk into my studio and I look around at all the stuff I've got sometimes, and I'm like, good lord, there's not enough. I couldn't have enough lifetimes to really learn and really know it.

Abbie Griffin: 2:03:10

Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 2:03:10

And now with the digital, even just in the digital world, there's so much to learn.

Abbie Griffin: 2:03:14

It's like option paralysis sometimes of which thing do I dive into next, and what do I like have time for?

Lij Shaw: 2:03:21

And that's one of the beauties about starting with the the song seed, you know, it's the idea of the song, it's just coming back to that, having that home base, you know. Yeah. Figuring out what it is that you're really interested in. So let me ask you this question: where do you see yourself in five years? That's a good question. Mom, dad, you're gonna love this one.

Abbie Griffin: 2:03:40

I've been trying to figure it out. Um I don't know. I felt like I had a very clear direction in where I was going. Um in the fall, I was like, I'm gonna be a producer. I don't know how, I don't know where, I don't know what. Um, and then I had like the rug pulled out from under me. Um and how so? Well, when my grandma passed away, she's the reason why I did everything music-wise. And all she wanted was like for me to be happy. And I hated everything that I was doing, like in the fall and last year.

Lij Shaw: 2:04:15

And was that related to a lot of the technical engineering side of stuff?

Abbie Griffin: 2:04:19

Yeah, and like the relationships that I had with not necessarily people, but the ways in which I would do things was not the wasn't serving me, wasn't making me the happiest. Right.

Lij Shaw: 2:04:35

So then like tracks, too many, too many robotic things.

Abbie Griffin: 2:04:39

Too many, like, yeah, too many things that were maybe too concrete because I have a problem thinking very black and white. Um, and I think like discovering the gray is my next mission. So next five years is right now I'm doing a lot of traveling and uh doing a lot of like uh soul searching kind of vibe, but I really want to have a lot of things released that I care about and that I'm passionate about, and you know, they say that if you do something that you love, you'll never work a day in your life, and that's really what I want to do. I am not working for the man, you know, and then catch me in five years from now working for the man. I don't know. I hope not, I really hope not. So five years from now I want to be doing my passions, um living somewhere too that I have like a really strong community because that's really important. Found family and community is really important to me. And, you know, getting up every day and doing my yoga and then doing what I really love to do, which is like songwriting, recording, everything. I live, breathe music, and I would like to continue to do that. I don't know where, I don't know how, but not working for the man, doing my passions and really enjoying what I do every day is where I'd want to be.

Lij Shaw: 2:06:08

So this is probably an impossible question to answer, but what about 10 years?

Abbie Griffin: 2:06:12

Ten years? What's 10 years from now? I'd be 32. Um, I do really want a family too. Um, so I'd be thinking about that. I'd probably be starting to think about that at 32. Um, but uh yeah, I'd I'd want to figure out I'd want to spend like the next 10 years figuring out location-wise where I would end up, quote unquote, and then sort of center my life a little bit more around that. Uh I don't know if it's New York, I don't know if it's Nashville, I don't know if it's Tahiti, I don't know if it's my one friend moved to Vietnam. I don't know.

Lij Shaw: 2:06:49

It's a good time now to go explore. Exactly.

Abbie Griffin: 2:06:51

And so that's kind of what I want to do. Um, and then yeah, when I'm 32, I wanna, I wanna have, you know, my own little family probably, but what's most important to me is the art and having by then, you know, something concrete that I can look back and be proud on. Yeah. Proud of. Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 2:07:11

Yeah. Um, okay, so now this question is hypothetical, um, as were the others, but this was particularly hypothetical. Yeah. And this is one I love to ask all the guests on the show. So, and you probably heard it before, but we're gonna take the way back studio machine, which I don't know how far back would you want to go, but um, you have been performing for 20 years, so you can probably go back pretty far if you wanted. And you get to go back in time and you get to find young Abby and say, Listen, Abby, normal. Um, I've come back to give you this one bit of advice. Here's the single most important thing you need to know to be a rock star of the studio yourself one day. What advice do you feel like you'd like to go back and give yourself if you could?

Abbie Griffin: 2:07:52

Be the weird girl. Embrace being the weird girl. Like, they call you Abby Normal for a reason. Nobody who has ever been anything has been somebody normal. And I think like being the weird girl, you've gotta really embrace that and not even let the be yourself, but be as weird as possible and have fun doing it. Be be the weird girl you know you are.

Lij Shaw: 2:08:22

Yeah, and what do you think about the the potential moments where you you try and embrace that and then you know you open your eyes and somebody's laughing at you. I mean, we all feel that.

Abbie Griffin: 2:08:33

We're all we all fear that yeah, and I have been in that many times.

Lij Shaw: 2:08:38

Um I remember it in the seventh grade dance. Yeah, I remember I remember getting down to sticks cranking over the stereo system. Yeah, and I was dancing so hard, I was like, I probably look like a Muppet. My arms are flailing, my head's back, and I and I and I come up and I look and and and like the kids are like pointing and laughing. And they I probably was funny and I just didn't know it. Yeah. And I look down and my shoes are untied.

Abbie Griffin: 2:09:04

Yeah, or like your pants are falling down, like yeah. Or everybody's had the the like naked in front of the school dream, like oh yeah, but I think in the hallways, yeah, yeah. Terror nightmare. Um, but if those people are laughing at you, find the ones that can laugh with you and then get through the hard times with you. If a lot of it is about finding those people that are there for you through when you cry, when you have crash-outs, and when you're, you know, feeling the most self-doubt and will be supportive of you no matter what. And when you're your weirdest, they they match your weird. The the kids say, match my freak. You have to find the people that match your freak. And so if those people are laughing at you, their loss. Like, I guess they're just not about that life. And so that like you've got to stick with weird, weird's gotta stick with weird, you know. Yeah.

Lij Shaw: 2:10:02

I love it. Well, Abby, this is amazing to have you on the podcast. What a what a blast. I knew you you'd just kill it and do great. Um, let the rock stars know where can they find out more about you, where can they go listen to their music, your music. Um, and uh yeah.

Abbie Griffin: 2:10:18

All right, so my Instagram is Abby EGriffin or Abby Griffin Music. I'll be posting there more. Um, then I have a YouTube channel that's also Abby Griffin, and it's A B V I E Griffin. That I'm a little unique.

Lij Shaw: 2:10:33

No normal.

Abbie Griffin: 2:10:33

Just no no normal, no Abby Normal, just A-B-B-I-E-G-R-I-F-F-I-N. And I have Abby Griffin Music.com. Um yeah, Abby Griffin Music.com and Instagram and YouTube and Spotify is Abby Griffin. Listen to Little Bird Live from Oni's House.

Lij Shaw: 2:10:50

Do you feel like your name is fitting? I mean, it's you're a lion with wings.

Abbie Griffin: 2:10:54

Yeah. Well, I think that I I don't know that the my people have always told me, oh, you have such a such a good name because I have a lot of double letters in it. Right. Um, but I was Abigail, and then my dad, when on my first birthday, wrote on the cake Abby with IE. And I love having to tell people, oh, actually not with a Y, it's an IE. Right. Um, and I think also my Abigail means father's joy too. Yeah, like literally, and I love when like the the found of people in my life, they tell their people, oh, it's not a Y, it's an IE. And so I love that. And I think Griffin is like, well, it's a Abigail means father's joy, and Griffin is a mythical creature. And I've been told that I'm a weird mix of everything, and you know, me and my dad are like this, and I've been told I'm like weird girl enigmatic, which sometimes has been used as an insult, but I don't care. I mean, a line, it's it is a lion with wings. That's true. Yeah, it is.

Lij Shaw: 2:12:00

Yeah, you're king of king, king, or queen of the jungle, and you know, you're taking it and you've got wings. You can go, you're gonna go places.

Abbie Griffin: 2:12:07

I guess so. That's pretty let's hope. But I do think it's fitting. I always resonate with my name.

Lij Shaw: 2:12:13

Right on. Um, Rockstars, thank you so much for joining us on another episode of Recording Studio Rockstars. Make sure to hit the subscribe button so you don't miss any more interviews with us. And uh kick that like button. Kick it. Can you give us a good kick? There you go. Awesome. And we'll see you in the next episode. And uh drop a comment in too and let us know if you got any questions or want to give us a shout out or say hi to Abby, or you know, you got thoughts about things we said about songwriting. Um, you know, I guess a good question. What's a good question for the rock stars to answer about songwriting?

Abbie Griffin: 2:12:49

Hmm. What's your songwriting ritual? I want to know. I want to know what other people do. If they have a inspiration candle or a mole skin or what pencil you use, yeah, let me know.

Lij Shaw: 2:12:59

I love it. All right. We'll see you in the next episode. Cheers. Thanks so much for listening to Recording Studio Rockstars. If you enjoyed the show and want to help make it better, then please share this episode with your friends on social media and leave a rating and review on iTunes to help the podcast reach more rock stars like yourself. You can click directly over to iTunes or go to rsrockstars.com slash review for an easy explanation. And remember to hit the subscribe button to keep up with weekly episodes. And if you're ready to make your best record ever now, then head over to Recording Studio Rockstars Academy, where you can start with my free course at mixmasterbundle.com. Thanks so much for listening and thanks for being a rock star. I'm Lyd Shaw, and this is Recording Studio Rockstars. Now, go make great music. Recording Studio Rockstars would like to give a big thank you to our awesome sponsors who help make this episode possible. Isotope Native Instruments Atom Audio and SAE Institute. And remember to take advantage of our special coupon codes at isotope.com and nativeinstruments.com. Use the coupon code ROC10 for 10% off any plug-in purchase. And don't forget, you can start mixing right now with my free course at mixmasterbundle.com. If you enjoyed recording studio rockstars, please check out our sponsors using the links in the show notes. These are all things I highly recommend for your studio. They're gonna help you make your best record ever. Also, please like and subscribe to our YouTube channel because it's a great way for you to help support this show. I'd also like to thank our fantastic team here at Recording Studio Rockstars, Vlad Weselchenko and Liz Hulitskaya. Thanks so much for watching and listening, Rockstars. We'll see you in the next episode. Cheers.