#233: What Is Mastering in Music? A Beginner’s Guide with Ben Holmes

What is mastering in music, and what does mastering a song really mean for independent producers? In this episode of Inside The Mix, host Marc Matthews sits down with mastering engineer Ben Holmes to break down what mastering is, how it differs from mixing and mastering as a combined process, and why it’s the final step that makes a track translate everywhere—from phones and cars to clubs, streaming platforms, and CDs.

Marc and Ben explain what mastering a song actually involves, starting with translation and future-proofing. They cover how streaming loudness normalisation affects modern releases, why “one size almost fits all” masters are possible, and when alternate versions, like a higher-ceiling CD master, still make sense. Ben shares a simple, repeatable mastering chain beginners can trust: corrective EQ, sweetening EQ, gentle compression, and a transparent limiter, plus why half-dB decisions matter more than flashy plugins.

The conversation also tackles common frustrations DIY artists face: overprocessing, chasing loudness until the chorus collapses, and expecting mastering to fix mix problems. You’ll learn why mastering in a separate session improves judgement, how to use AI mastering tools as references instead of replacements, and which DAW features speed up real-world workflows—using Reaper as a practical example.

Finally, Marc and Ben answer the big question: should you master your own music or hire a mastering engineer? From second-pair-of-ears benefits to room calibration and experience, they lay out how to choose what’s right for your release.

TL;DR: A practical, beginner-friendly breakdown of what mastering is, how it differs from mixing, and how to get a clean, confident master that translates everywhere.

If this episode helped clarify what mastering is and why it matters, follow the show and share it with a fellow producer.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Follow Ben Holmes

Transcript

Welcome And Mastering Defined

Ben Holmes 0:28

If you equate mixing to a carpenter building a table, he takes the pieces of wood, the sort of raw ingredients, as you'd say, and he crafts a table. And he will finish it up to a point where it looks like a table, it's got no sharp edges, it would function perfectly well as a table. And if you did nothing else, you would have a basic table. And that for me is a mix. You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast. And here's your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews 1:04

Hey folks, welcome to Inside the Mix, where beginner producers learn practical music production and mixing techniques from real world experience. I'm Mark Matthews, and today I'm joined by a fellow Brit and mastering engineer Ben Holmes. Holmes Holmes, hope I pronounced that correctly. One of those was correct there somewhere. To talk through the tools, habits, and decisions that actually make a difference when you're learning to master. So if you're ready to improve your tracks with advice, you can apply right away. Make sure you hit follow and let's get into it. So uh Ben, big welcome. How are things? How are you?

Ben Holmes 1:41

Yeah, I'm really good. Thanks very much. Yeah, good to be here.

The Table And French Polish Analogy

Marc Matthews 1:44

Yeah, fantastic stuff. So for the audience listening, um, I actually featured on Ben's podcast, Sound Discussion Podcast, uh, the season two finale with Ben, Nate, and Neil, where we uh dove headfirst into growing a uh top 10% podcast that we're really talking about inside the mix. And uh also Nate featured on the podcast, episode 197, where we touched on why I don't touch plugins before doing this, the art static mixing. Now, if you're not familiar with Ben the and the Sound Discussion podcast, so he's been a drummer for 40 years, mastering engineer for 10 plus years, and obviously I mentioned it just then, a co-host of the Sound Discussion Podcast, and uh a brief synopsis known for coming through overthinking around noise flaw, perfectionism, and imposter syndrome. So we are talking about mastering today. So confusing mixing problems with mastering problems, overprocessing tracks, and feeling pressure to master before they're ready, all things that we're gonna hopefully cover in our chat today. So by the end of this episode, you'll know what mastering is supposed to do, what mastering cannot fix, a simple, repeatable mastering approach for beginners and one to reach out to a mastering engineer. So I love helping beginner producers with DIY mastering. So if you ever struggle with mastering your own music, this conversation is for you. Now I've rambled on along enough now. Ben, I'm gonna throw the floor, throw the floor, throw the microphone, or give you the floor somewhere, something like that, over to you. Um maybe if you could uh tell our audience basically, what is mastering?

Ben Holmes 3:24

What is mastering? That's uh open-ended question. Yeah, I can ask that quite a lot. Um, I've got quite a good analogy for mastering, I think. Um if you equate mixing to a carpenter building a table, he takes the in pieces of wood, the sort of raw ingredients, as you'd say, and he crafts a table and he will finish it up to a point where it looks like a table, it's got no sharp edges, it would function perfectly well as a table. Uh, and if you did nothing else, you would have a basic table, and that for me is a mix. Mastering is essentially French polishing the table. So mastering cannot turn a table into a set of drawers or a sideboard, but what it can do is take that mark that finished that table from the carpenter, take all the edges off, give it a polish, make sure it's fit for any purpose, so that could go into a very it could go into a very basic house, it could go into a luxury house, it could go any could go in a dining room in a restaurant, because the table is finished. Um, and that's not taking anything away from a carpenter because uh you know the French polisher couldn't make the table, and equally it just takes that table that the carpenter's made to the next level and makes it fit for purpose everywhere and protects it and makes sure it can it will last a long time, um, and also makes sure that it's protected from what's coming down the line in the future. So if somebody puts a cup on it, it doesn't immediately just sink into the wood and you'll never get that that ring off because you can polish it out again. And the same is true for mastering. So mastering takes that mix and makes it ready for whatever format it's going to be distributed in, vinyl, online, played on the radio, but also make sure that it's future-proofed as much as possible to be able to use in any scenario, whether that's in your car, whether that's on high-end headphones, uh, whether that's played in a club. Um, that's what mastering does for me.

Translation, Formats, And Loudness

Marc Matthews 5:32

Nice. I like that description of the work table, the table and French polishing as well. Um, I it's a slight tangent here. I'm an avid uh watcher over these programs where they restore antiques. So as soon as you said French polishing, that immediately got my interest. But it reminds me of a description I've heard in the past, which is about a dirty window. I remember that I've when I did my training, I training when I did my uh my master's degree and whatnot, and there was a mastering engineer there, and he'd always say, You've got a dirty window, and then the mastering engineer is just cleaning the window basically and giving you that um that clean view through the window. Could you touch a bit more on the protection side of things? So when you mentioned protection, are you talking about future-proofing it there and making sure it's translates on different mediums? Is that what you're talking about?

Ben Holmes 6:18

Yeah, absolutely. So quite often uh when I send the master, one of the things I have to bear in mind when I'm sending a master back is unless I'm sending it to a record company, if I'm sending it to an individual or someone is at home wanting to master for themselves, you don't know what they're gonna do with that track. So, as much as possible, I try and make sure that the track is um usable for anything. So um one of the things, so we've had Ian Shepherd on our podcast, I'm sure you know your listeners will be aware of Ian Shepherd. Ian's views on the loudness of music are something I share with him. Um, and one of the reasons that all the masters, unless I'm specifically asked by a client to make it a certain loudness, and I will push back at times if I think they're wrong. Um all of the masters I send back have good dynamic range so that if you play them on if you upload them to Spotify, they will sound good. If you play them in your car, they will be loud enough and will still sound good. If you put them on a CD and play them against Metallica from 1987, they will sound quiet. They they will because what I'm trying to do is create a master that's usable everywhere, and if they want a specific CD level master, I will do that separately.

Marc Matthews 7:50

Okay, so you're are are you in your fur in the first instance, are you creating sort of uh like one master to rule them all? Uh uh for one of a better way of putting it, and then if they approach you and say, actually, we want a slightly different master for this particular format, CD, for example.

Ben Holmes 8:10

Yeah, absolutely. So I would create what I believe are the best masters for that track initially. Um, but I appreciate that if you want to create CDs, you probably will you will want them louder for CDs. Um and I will then invariably not change much on the EQ balance or anything like that, but will look at uh what the limits are on the what the settings are on the limiter and how hard we're pushing through the limiter to lift it up to that. But again, even there, I will try and make sure that we're not affecting the dynamic range to a point where it just sounds flat.

Marc Matthews 8:50

And just for our audience, you touched on there about how you might want it slightly louder for CD. Can you just maybe uh really high-level overview of why that might be my why sorry, put my teeth back in why that might be?

Ben Holmes 9:01

Um so online typically things are normalized down to it's not minus 14, minus 12, but these are numbers that come up quite a lot. But they are normalized so that when you play one track to the next, they all sound of a similar volume. So there, in my view, there is no real benefit in pushing the loudness for that uh use case, and that is what most people that I work with do with their music, they upload it to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, they don't make CDs and distribute them, but usually you'd want the ceiling on your limiter to be higher for a CD because it's so the requirements for online streaming tend to be they want at least minus one uh dB of headroom at the top. You don't need to do that with a CD, so you can push it up much higher, which makes it louder. Um, and also you want to be able to just put it in your car CD player and not have to turn the knob all the way around so it's on max volume to make sure it's a good volume in your car, for example.

Streaming vs CD Levels

Marc Matthews 10:08

Yeah, okay, fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. I've got one question, uh, and I always ask this when I have other mastering engineers on the on the podcast, is um when it comes to mixing and mastering, just music production in general. Do you think it's good for let's say you're in a spot, you're you're you're mixing your own music, mastering your own music, you're producing your own stuff, very DIY. Do you think it's a good idea to have a at least a foundational understanding of what mastering is, even if you don't master your own music?

Ben Holmes 11:29

Good question. Um, I think it's good to have an understanding of every step in the process. Um, I think you know, if you're a recording engineer, you should understand that at a high level how a drummer hits a drum kit, if that makes sense, or how a guitarist plays his guitar. So I think if you're wanting to be a producer or a mix engineer, or you're at home recording your own music, just having an understanding of there is a step after you've mixed it to make it right, I use that word really cautiously, but for putting on Spotify. Um so, yes, I think just having, and you can do it at a really high level, you know, you don't need to go into super depth, you don't need to buy special equipment. Learn how your limiter works, get get a good limiter. There are some out there that I think are not good limiters, but um get a good limiter and understand what it does when you move knobs and buttons on it. Um and I think just having an understanding of how how to bring the level up without it clipping, without it causing distortion, and then how to have an under having an understanding of how an EQ balance works, and that's different to EQing a guitar or EQing a synth part, having an understanding of how to balance a track. Um, so so it sounds right, balanced, it is good.

Why Producers Should Learn Mastering Basics

Marc Matthews 13:06

Yeah, um I agree with everything you said there. Uh, the the reason I ask it as well, I always again why I asked this question is is I find it's it's incredibly helpful when it comes to deliverables and having that conversation with artists and saying um that maybe you're highlighting uh the true peak or the the sample peak or the LUFTS value or the RMS or something. And the the the audio engineer, the producer, just having an awareness of what that is and being able to have that be part of that conversation, have an awareness, just speeds up and sort of greases the mastering process, I find. And also when it comes to that deliverable and actually delivering something that is conducive to mastering as well, I think helps. Um so yeah, generally, whenever I ask that question, it's always uh always the same result, but I always think it's quite important um to to ask and sort of highlight why, even like you said, just at a really high level, if someone says limited to you, just you know, and also so you're able to provide. I think it's quite useful to have a rough master, if if and like a rough mix, if someone submits stems to me, um just having a rough mix, so I got I I know I've got a vague idea of where they are going with this particular song or the direction they want to go with it from their rough mix. Um, I was listening to a podcast the other day, and I remember Andrew Sheps saying the same thing. So um hopefully I'm in good company then in that in that case with the with that idea.

Ben Holmes 14:26

And it's um it's actually where I it's where I think the online mastering services like Lander or that sort of thing, they're perfect for that. Get the mix where you think I've got a good mix, pay the five dollars or whatever it is to get Landa to master it. Now, I I'm slightly controversial in this, that they are getting better all the time. Um I try and do a shootout about twice a year where I get some of my trusted friends uh and I get a track and I master it, and then I get two or three of the online sessions to master it, and then I just send them ABC and say which one do you prefer? So far, I'm still winning, which is which is reassuring. But if you've done a mix and you just want to see what it sounds like in your car, just use Lambda, just slam it through Lambda, get Lambda's. I would say don't go for the high output one, just go for a you know, their medium, I think they do high, medium, low, so loud, medium, quiet. Go for the medium, get Lambda to master it for five dollars, go listen to it in your car because it will help that it's mastered, it's limited, it's they've done an EQ, basic EQ balance. Um, yeah, why wouldn't you use that?

Marc Matthews 15:44

Yeah, I agree. Um, and I'm sort of I I often say this to uh clients that I work with as well, if they've got access to something like uh Isotope or something along those lines, even in Logic Pro, it has its own mastering assistant now, so you could just put that on the end of it because it also what I find really useful in doing going through that process, it's highlighting uh anomalies, artifacts in a mix that they might otherwise not recognize or hear that are brought out in mastering. I was working on the project the other day for someone, and um there were particular mouth noises that um weren't evident in the original mix. But as soon as I mastered it and and got it up to that that level in in my studio here, I was able to pinpoint those. And I guess not everybody wants to go through that process, but have it if I had had that conversation with them, it would have highlighted at an earlier level.

Ben Holmes 16:34

But I think the other thing it does, the other thing that they do very well is it will show you if you what if what you think is the EQ balance of that song, it will tell you if that's a long way out. Because Lander or something like that will all of a sudden you'll get it back and go, Well, where's all the bass gone? It's like, well, if if it's removed all what you consider to be all the bass, you've got too much bass because their masters are not that far out.

Marc Matthews 17:00

Great for uh individuals if they've got a less than adequate room in inadequate monitoring, uh, or using headphones. Um so things like tonal balance are really good for that. Uh there are other ones on the market. I use tonal balance myself, the isotope one, but I'm sure there are other ones, um, or match IQ or or uh there's another A B one, I can't remember what it is. It might be called metric A B or something like that. Yeah, another really good one as well. Um, which is kind of a nice segue, actually, to uh the next topic of our conversation, which is a simple, repeatable mastering chain for beginners. So maybe you could talk a bit about where you would start there.

Using AI Mastering For References

Ben Holmes 17:39

Um yeah, so what are you aiming to achieve with mastering? You're looking to create a good balance for the track tonally, and you're looking to control some dynamics and then make it louder. Um so my mastering chain has more in it than this, but essentially it is EQ, it is compressor, and it is limiting, and the limiter will obviously lift the level. So I know Ian Shepherd lifts the level to where he wants it first, and then all the EQ and everything is done at the level that the at the final level. I don't, I do it the other way, purely because I do use some analog emulation in my mastering chain, so I can't be hitting it really hard, it's you know, it's designed to work or whatever it is, minus 18 dB. Um but uh but essentially you have an EQ where um and I I'll tell you my workflow, shall I, and then that will probably help. First thing you do, get the track from a client, listen to it. Don't open any tools, don't put up, get your don't get your DAW up and running, don't sit there looking at level meet, listen to it, and listen to it constructively with the view of I break it into blocks. Which blocks do I feel need work? So it might be it's muddy in the middle, you know. And I'll give you a good example. Almost every track I get from not professional studios, there will be a hull off the snare drum every time. Now I know that's about 190 to 210 Hertz, somewhere in there, a nice, relatively tight cut, not too and everything in mastering is little. You know, you're not doing 6 dB cuts, 3 dB, it's half a dB, 1 dB. I mean it's whatever it needs to be, but typically if the mix is good, it's little. So I would be listening for is there anything that stands out that I want to work on? Then I'd open it up. Uh I always use FabFX uh ProQ 4 now. Um and just the first thing I do is fix the problem. Uh so get rid of those funny frequencies, clear out the mud, listen for any sharpness in the top end. So that's one EQ, and I would always recommend doing this. So your first EQ is fix it, your second EQ, which can be another instance of your favourite EQ, whatever it is, is the bits you then want to enhance. So does it need a bit more low end? Does it need a bit more air? Does it need a little lift at 2k because the vocals are getting a bit lost or whatever? Once you've got that tonal shape, uh, and one of the things I would definitely say is as a mastering engineer, is I always uh I get these, I always get these wrong rather wrong. I always low cut at about 25 hertz, 30 hertz on a relatively steep shelf because most people haven't got equipment that could hear below that. And if you have, um, and I know this works because uh one of my clients, uh Silent Gratitude, their son is a DJ in a club, uh, and he writes EDM, music does Silent Gratitude, and he took the track I've mastered to his. Sons Club and played it on their massive subs and big PA system, and it still sounded great. So you don't need below there. So just because one thing I'd be I always say is don't be afraid to cut as a mastering engineer if it if it needs a low cut, put a low cut in there. Um, I also tend to use a high cut at about 16,000 with a gentle shelf, or relatively not that gentle, but uh you know not vertical.

Marc Matthews 21:44

Yeah. Um you say slope or shelf in this sense. Are we talking about sorry?

Ben Holmes 21:48

Uh no, that's a cut, there that's a cut at about 16k. Um, literally, uh is that a low that's a low pass filter.

A Simple Repeatable Mastering Chain

Marc Matthews 21:58

I I always have to think about it when it comes to that because you've got high cut. I I always I use one like low cut and then high pass. High pass, yeah. Or something like that. I never use it.

Ben Holmes 22:07

Yeah, um, and so we get get your EQ to where you want it, then I would look at um I like things like the SSL bus compressor or a Neve bus compressor uh on a really on automatic I think it's on auto release and it's on two to one, and you're just looking when you play the loudest section one half dB, one dB, just shaving, shaving the the real top end off and letting it round it out a bit. And on a basic setup, you then go into a go into a limiter. Um if you don't know what you're doing with a limiter, pick whichever option in your limiter says transparent or all around or balanced, uh, and then just take, and then if you put it so you're getting two or three dB at the very loudest point, maybe not even that, but if you looked at sort of you probably won't be far away.

Marc Matthews 23:09

Yeah. Um, quick question on the EQ. You mentioned there you've got your sort of corrective EQ, then a creative EQ. Are you doing both of those before the compressor? I appreciate projects do different and in your workflow, your your chain, signal chain might differ as well, but in general, are those two EQs before the compressor? Yeah, yeah.

Ben Holmes 23:28

Yeah. I tend to, and I don't somebody's gonna tell me this is not right, okay, but I tend to do all my EQ at the beginning and all my dynamics at the end. It's just it's just how I've found it works for me. I mean, my just to give you an idea, my actual chain, and I don't necessarily use all of this, but I actually have I EQ I cut EQ, so corrective EQ in midside. I then uh additive EQ, if you want to call it that, uh in stereo, and I use the Chandler um mastering EQ. I can't remember what it's I can't remember for the life of me what it's called right now. Uh the t oh the tone bender is it? I could you know what, I could find it. Give me two seconds, I'll tell you. Yeah, yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Why is it that you can never find there it is, the Chandler Limited Curve Bender. Close. Yeah. Which uh for me is such a great EQ for mastering because it only goes up to plus five dB and minus five dB on every band. Um, and I do it, I uh people will tell me again, you're not supposed to I do it by ear. So I'll I'll max it to plus five, and then I'll go, where do I want that? Is it 30 hertz? No, 50, no, 70, 70, 90, it's not 90, so it's between 50 and 70, and I'll do it by ear to find the bit that sounds nice, and I'll just do that through the track of the bits I want to boost, and then once I've done that, then I actually use uh either a Neave or an SSL um console emulation to give it a bit of warmth, a bit of niceness. Then we do some dynamic stuff with bus compressors and a multi-band compressor, um and then it goes into onto a tape emulation, then it goes through the limiter. So that is effectively how I work, and some of those are turn off. And if I think it really needs more air because it's really not clear up there, I'll use the Clarophonics um hardware emulation that's just incredible for air. Um, but yeah, but basically, I would use I would say two EQs, compressor, limiter. That's that's all you need to master.

Marc Matthews 25:52

Yeah. So just just to recap, going right back to the beginning then. So you've got the initial listen, so we're doing that outside of the DAW. I do that myself. I I generally chuck it into RX Audio and then three passes through that making notes before then diving into the DAW. Then you've got your EQ compression and then limiting as a very basic, and then you've got the other other bits and pieces that you mentioned there, for example, adding air at the end, using the um was it that wasn't the chart, was it the channel or EQ? No, it wasn't. It was um that was the the EQ we use.

Ben Holmes 26:22

Oh, to add the air, it's uh it's called yeah, it's a clarophonic by Cush audio. And I have to say, it's um it's that that is one of those I don't use it all the time, but if you've got a track that's just not it's missing that sparkle off the off the top end, it's an incredible plugin.

Marc Matthews 26:42

Yeah, and small moves, which I'm glad you mentioned. I think that's very important. Very important when it comes to mastering.

Ben Holmes 26:48

I would say in mastering, if you let's say you're trying to master it and you've got I don't I'm trying to think of an example, but well, a lot of times if I'm gonna do compression, I will use three compressors.

Marc Matthews 27:02

In series, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.

Small Moves And Invisible Compression

Ben Holmes 27:04

And each one will do, I mean, the needles will hardly move. But you just because what I think it then becomes invisible. What what I don't like, unless you're aiming for it as a thing, pumping on a master is something that I'll give you an i give you a good example, and I they won't like me saying this, I'll probably get in trouble. But there's a really good uh the Taylor Mommsen's band, I think they're called The Bloody Reckless or something like that. Um the Pretty not the Pretty Reckless The Pretty Reckless, they've got an amazing track. I'll tell you what, I'll we can put it in the notes afterwards, I'll find it for you. The song, the song is absolutely brilliant, and I love the song, and it's been absolutely crushed to pieces where the verse is louder than the chorus. Because when everything kicks in in the chorus, the limiter just smashes it to the floor, and it's like what it's such a good song, and every time I listen to it, I'm like, oh yeah.

Marc Matthews 28:04

Makes you wonder like, was that a creative decision that they decided to do that, or was it literally just uh got through the the the QC check and the final end? It's it doesn't make you wonder.

Ben Holmes 28:14

Somebody listening to it must have loved it.

Marc Matthews 28:16

Yeah, well, this is this is what I'm thinking then. Oh yeah, that's that's perfect.

Ben Holmes 28:20

But um but yeah, little movements, little bits on your compressor. You know, if you're getting six, seven dB gain reduction on your limiter, that's too much. Uh you're pushing that too far. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're pushing that too far.

Marc Matthews 28:34

Yeah, yeah, I would have to agree. With regards, before we move on to the final topic, with regards to um DAWs, we mentioned there about listening to it in isolation. DAWs two two two parts to this question. Um what door do you use to master? Um, and I think mastery really, if you are a producer, is pretty much door agnostic, to be honest, work with what you have. Um and also, do you recommend if you uh do you recommend mastering in a separate session to the mixed session?

Ben Holmes 29:07

Uh so let's do the second question first. Yes, every time, 100%. Bounce it out as a stereophile, bring up a new session, that's what you're mastering. Um first off, you shouldn't be mastering until you think it is finished. I know that's another tricky topic for discussion.

Marc Matthews 29:26

Um episode in itself, that one.

Ben Holmes 29:29

Absolutely, but 100% do it in a separate session. Um what door do I what DAW do I use? Well, very interestingly. So I've used Wave Lab for years because I'm a mastering engineer and that is what mastering engineers use. Um however, just in the last month or so, so many people who come on our podcast are saying, Oh yeah, we we used Reaper for this and Reaper for that, and and I've never even I use Reaper. I've never looked at it uh until about a month ago. I'm recording in Reaper today. I mastered two the last two projects I did in Reaper. Um what I don't understand is how it's so light on my CPU. Like Wavelab will be running at 65%, and on exactly the same plugin chain, in exactly the same project setup, Reaper will be running at 26%.

Marc Matthews 30:24

It's uh it's a great DW Reaper. Uh I've been using it for over a decade now, I think. I spent some time with a mastering engineer in South Wales, uh Donald Whelan, uh, Half-Od Mastering, and he was using Reaper, and I asked him the question. And I think he racking my brain to his his uh argument was the the stand and low footprint, which goes to what you were saying there about the CPU usage. But it's a great DOW. It is, I think it's a bit of a it could be a steep learning curve. It's it's the some of the menus aren't that intuitive. However, I think if you're mastering, I find that I really only scratch the surface with what I can do.

Ben Holmes 31:01

Yeah, the things I want to be able to do in mastering is render out different sections of the album as different things. Reaper has that in a much better capability than Wavelab does. Um and I want to be able to work fast. I use lots of shortcut keys when I'm working, um, which Reaper's brilliant for. And I have to say, I think the biggest thing that will scare people is it has a look of it's a bit scary to look at when you first open it, and you're like, what on earth is but actually, I mean it's very, very good. It's very good. So yeah, currently using Reaper.

DAW Choices And Reaper Tips

Marc Matthews 31:39

Yeah, there's a great feature in it where you can, it's in the top right of the plugin window where you can just hear what the plugin is doing. So it eliminates the original audio source, so you can just literally just hear whatever your plugin is doing. So if you are running it through tape emulation, you can just hear that, which I think is fantastic. Because at the top right, you have to right-click on it, it'll give the option to start. I cannot remember what it's called, but it if you use Reaper audience listening, top right, right-click around there somewhere, and you can just hear the effect that the plugin is having on the audio, um, which is which is fantastic. You might be able to do it in other DWs. I don't know if there's a way of doing it in logic, I could be wrong, but that's what I use for my producing and my mixing, but mastering 100% in Reaper. Um so it's interesting you mentioned that. Uh well yeah, it's um it's as I say, I think it is a a bit of a steep learning curve. I think if you're moving over if you're moving over from Pro Tools, if you've used Pro Tools a lot, because I used to use Pro Tools quite a lot, I found it wasn't such a jump. Um, but I appreciate not that everybody listening's got access to tools. Um so moving on to our final topic DIY versus hiring a mastering engineer. When should you consider hiring a mastering engineer? Yeah, that that classic question.

Ben Holmes 33:01

When should you consider hiring a mastering engineer? Right. First off, if you are releasing music, so it's finished and you're going to release it, you should never master it yourself. There's a statement for you.

Marc Matthews 33:18

It's one uh uh Mike Marsh who is in Exmouth just down the road from me, uh, said the exact same thing. And uh he's I went to his master, it's like 10 years Linky, I went to his mastering studio and he's showing me all his records on the wall. So he does all the like the Chemical Brothers, Calvin Harris sort of stuff. So yeah, yeah, it's uh it's a it's a sentiment that has good company.

Ben Holmes 33:39

Uh and I'll back that up with why I believe I think that. Um for no other reason than it's a second pair of ears. So let's say, as an argument, that the room you're recording in is well treated and you've you've built yourself a lovely studio and it's all good, but every room has idiosyncrasies. You know, even if you go to Abbey Road Studio 2, there are bits of Abbey Road Studio 2 that the engineers know there, because they work there all the time, but it might have a bump at 400 hertz, for example. So if you've recorded it and you don't know you've got a bump at 400 hertz, and then you master it, all you're doing is baking in that bump at 400 hertz. If you send it to a mastering engineer, they go, I know what things. I'm not saying my room is perfect, by the way, no room is perfect, but I know because I've recorded I've mastered thousands of things in here, I know what my room sounds like. So I go, Oh, you've got a bump at 400 hertz. So if you've done that yourself, all you're doing is baking that in, and you will never know that until you listen to it somewhere else, or they play it on the radio, and you're like, oh, why is that? That didn't sound like that in my studio. So at a very basic level, that's why you hire a mastering engineer. Obviously, you hire a mastering engineer because they've got thousands of hours in the bank of mastering music that you don't have, probably, um, and they'll do a better job, is the honest answer. They will create a better final product. But that's that first thing for me is the most vital.

Marc Matthews 35:17

Yeah, the second set of ears I think is incredibly important. Uh, because you can get lost in the source, I find, when you're working on your own stuff. At the very least, I think if you haven't got the ability or that you cannot afford a mastering engineer, I think it's important just to get a second set of ears on it in general. Farm it out to someone, yeah, yeah, exactly that. Yeah, send it to a friend. So I know, for example, my studio there's a slight deficiency around 80 hertz. There's a there's a bump there. So I know for a fact that I've got that here, which is again why I like to get a second set of ears on anything I work on that's my own. But also, like you say, when people bring stuff in, um, I I know the intricacies of the studio that I have, but I don't I definitely agree with that. I think at the very least, the second set of ears, even if it's just someone listening to it, is it's huge. And also, I think it ties in nicely with what I said right at the beginning, which was when they might hear something that you totally miss. Well, going back to those mouth noises of that that track I was working with in particular, the artists just didn't hear them. And it wasn't until we got to the mastering stage. To be fair, when I was doing the initial, because I always provide a bit of feedback on the mix, I didn't hear it either. Um, and it wasn't until we got to the mastering that I was like, ah, okay, yeah, there's there's some there's some issues going on here. So yeah, I agree, I agree with that one, and I think it goes back to a conversation I had with with Jonathan Weiner, I think it was about probably almost two years ago now, and he mentioned um, because I asked the same question and he he mentioned legacy. If you want music with legacy as well, do you want something to put out quickly? Or do you want something that's going to stand the test of time? Not saying that if you were to master it yourself, it might not stand the test of time, but there's a potential that it might stand the test of time or or fare better in that arena if it were mastered by a professional mastering engineer.

DIY Or Hire A Mastering Engineer

Ben Holmes 36:59

It's it's a bit like anything, in my view, it's people who have got thousands of hours experience in doing something will be better at it than you who've got a hundred hours. Yeah, that that is just a fundamental in-life truth, you know, that that's why people study things and work at things for years. So the fact, and I'm not I'm not saying I'm the greatest mastering engineer in the world, but the fact I've been doing it for over a decade um on the to be honest, on the same speakers for pretty much all that time, um in the same room for pretty much all that time, means that I can work quicker. Not that that's necessarily a problem for them, um, but also get it's much more consistent. I know, I know what a rock song sounds like in here, I know what an EDM track sounds like in here. Um, so I'm not trying to guess does my does this track sound comparable to another EDM track, because I know what they sound like in here.

Marc Matthews 38:04

Yeah, you've also got that time spent. It's it's not it's not just working on masters and mixes, it's just listening to music in your environment, which is which is huge, both headphones and and monitors as well, knowing what they sound like. And like I said, so that way you know, okay, well, this is uh this is an EDM track, this is a rock track, this is hip-hop, this is um jazz, classical. You kind of know, okay, I know how this should should translate in the environment I have here. Uh fantastic stuff, Ben. Uh hopefully the audience can get loads out of this conversation in in with regards to mastering and where that where they should start. But quick question for you folks listening: what do you usually reach for first when mastering? There's a link in the episode in the show notes, so you can send a message. Let us know what do you usually reach for first when mastering? Is it EQ? Is it something different? And then you'll get a shout out on a future episode. Um, Ben, before we uh we end our conversation today, I'd be doing you a disservice if I didn't uh say uh tell the audience a bit more about what you do, where they can find you, and what you're up to.

Ben Holmes 39:08

Uh yeah, so uh I'm a mastering engineer, I think we've covered that. Um I do mastering. Uh just you can find me all the benhomesmastering.com. So that's B-E-N-H-O-L-M-E-S mastering.com or Benhomesmastering on Instagram, either of those. Probably the easiest way.

Marc Matthews 39:27

Fantastic. And a bit about the podcast.

Ben Holmes 39:29

Yeah, so Sam Discussion Podcast, it's myself, Nate Neil, as discussed earlier. Um we all met about just well, probably about a decade ago. Uh, we were all members of Joe Gilda's home studio corner, uh, became really good friends. Nate uh is a producer uh and musician uh in uh Cleveland, Ohio. And Neil plays live all the time. He is a live musician um in Florida, down in southern USA, and I do mastering here. So uh it's I always think it's a relaxed chat amongst three mates that it's when there's no script and you just talk about nonsense and sometimes music comes up, that's the podcast.

Legacy, Experience, And Consistency

Marc Matthews 40:14

Yeah, it's a great podcast. Now as I say I had the pleasure of being on the podcast, and there was a takeover at the end of um the year, so the end of 2025, uh audience listening, you can go back and listen to a full episode of on Inside the Mix of the Sound Discussion podcast, because we had a takeover here, but do go and check out Sound Discussion. I'll put a link to your website, the podcast, in the show notes as well, folks. So do go check that out. And also, whilst I'm giving you things to do, uh if you want weekly tools and tips to make your music playlist worthy, make sure you click the link in the episode description and jump on my I hate to use the word to use the term mailing list, but essentially that's what it is. But you'll get one email a week from me. There'll be no spam, no fluff, just with some useful tips and tricks to take your music on and crack on with that. Um and if you've enjoyed this episode, I kind of briefly mentioned it earlier, do go check out episode 193 where I ask Mike Marsh, mastering engineer, whether you really need a mastering engineer at all. Kind of follows on nicely from our conversation today. Ben, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today. And um until the next time, folks, keep creating, keep mixing, and I will I won't see you in the next episode. But join me in the next episode. Cheers, Ben.