#234: How to Prevent Over Mixing & Finish Tracks Faster with Lij Shaw

How to prevent overmixing and finish tracks faster is one of the biggest challenges facing independent producers. In this episode of Inside The Mix, Marc Matthews sits down with producer and Recording Studio Rockstars host Lij Shaw to unpack a powerful truth: the fix for overmixing isn’t another plugin, it’s a process.

Why do producers overmix in the first place? What makes a song feel complete? And how do you know when to stop mixing music? Marc and Lij break down the psychology behind endless tweaking and explain how to channel that instinct into structured improvement instead of decision paralysis.

You’ll learn a simple “1% rule” for steady growth, how templates and labelled routing speed up workflow, and why mixing on the fly can capture more energy than a drawn-out session. They explore plugin overwhelm, the danger of polishing the life out of a track, and how to separate creative play from technical execution.

Marc also shares practical systems to prevent overmixing: print early, leave the room, level-match your references, and use car and phone checks to spot real issues. You’ll discover how to recognise diminishing returns, gather meaningful feedback, and finish music with confidence.

If you’re stuck tweaking instead of releasing, this episode gives you a repeatable system to close projects and build momentum.

TL;DR:

Overmixing isn’t a plugin problem; it’s a process problem. Use templates, the 1% rule, fresh ears, and level-matched checks to finish tracks faster and keep their energy.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Listen to Recording Studio Rockstars

Follow Lij Shaw

Check out Mix Master Bundle

Follow Toy Box Studio

Transcript

One New Idea Per Session

Lij Shaw 0:28

And it's it's a kind of a fun lesson I learned from Steve Albini when I was working with him at electrical studios in Chicago. We asked him, you know, like, do you ever because he seemed very methodical in the way that he would set up for a recording session, and we asked him, you know, it's like, do you ever like try different stuff? And he said, yes and no. Like he always likes to try one at least one new mic on every session. Just pick one thing, you know. Otherwise, like stick to things that you know are gonna work well in that moment, but look for like one opportunity to to expand and do something unusual or different. It's sort of like the idea of the Olympic athlete training for the Olympics, you know, they're always looking to do 1% of improvement when you get it to that higher level of ability. So you don't have to try everything. And if you if you did throw everything into chaos, you probably wouldn't get your project done.

Intro 1:20

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews 1:25

Hey folks, welcome to Inside the Mix, where beginner producers learn practical music production and mixing techniques from real world experience. I'm Mark Matthews, and today I'm joined by returning guest, actually, uh songwriter, producer, recording engineer, and host of the Fantastic Recording Studio Rockstars podcast, Lidge Shaw. And he's here to talk through how to stop endless tweaking and overmixing. So if you're ready to improve your music with a device you can apply right away, make sure you hit follow and let's get into it. Lidge, welcome back. Uh it's been a while.

Lij Shaw 1:57

Great to be here, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Marc Matthews 1:58

No, it's my pleasure. So, um, folks, uh, if you're not familiar with Lidge, hopefully you are, because if you follow this podcast, you probably listen to the Recording Studio Rockstars podcast as well. Uh, but as I did mention, Lidge did finish uh feature rather on episode 168, where we discussed mastering music production insights and strategies. And also, there was a takeover of this podcast, episode 224. Um, so this was around Christmas, and it was an incredibly popular takeover episode where uh Lidge interviewed Abby Griffin. So do go check out those episodes if you haven't done so already. Obviously, listen to this one first. Uh but if you're not familiar with Lidge, uh, as I mentioned, songwriter, producer, recording engineer, host of recording studio rock stars, 500 plus interviews?

Lij Shaw 2:45

I've got my notes here. Is that correct? 500. Yeah, boy, it's up to um it's we're getting close to 600 interviews now because I always do a bunch of them ahead of time.

Marc Matthews 2:55

Yeah.

Lij Shaw 2:56

So I'm even further ahead than what's been published right now.

Marc Matthews 2:59

Wow, man. I need I need to do that. I need to the two. I used to do like batch recordings of two or three, but 600 interviews. That's so so cool.

Lij Shaw 3:08

Um, I mean, we could do 600 all at once. That would be quite wild.

Marc Matthews 3:12

That would be wild, man. Imagine that. Like even like a 20 even if you did 24 hours, you still wouldn't be able to do that. I was gonna say like a 24-hour marathon of interviews, but you still wouldn't get to 600.

Why We Overmix

Speaker 1 3:22

No, the closest thing for me was doing the Bonnaroo studio at this huge festival outside of Nashville for 15 years, where we would record and mix and master over a hundred songs in four days.

Marc Matthews 3:35

Wow.

Lij Shaw 3:37

Which is pretty relevant to this discussion today.

Marc Matthews 3:39

It is. That is very relevant. So the key, the the question is there, how, isn't it? And uh, I'm gonna dive into that today, to how to get to that point whereby you'd be able to churn through so many, so many songs. But you you also run Toy Box Studio in Nashville, and you're passionate about helping self-recording musicians make their music or their records better without overthinking. Again, a topic that we're gonna we're gonna touch on today. So overmixing, overmixing. So I love helping beginner producers stop overmixing and endless tweaking, and it's something it's a topic, a recurring theme for the podcast as well. Binge editing is another way I like to put it as well, or binge mixing. Uh so we're looking to release playlist worthy music in half the time. So let's break this down. Um so overmixing. Big, big sweeping question here. Why might we overmix in the first place? What are your thoughts?

Lij Shaw 4:32

Uh well, I think it's I I think I have some sp very specific thoughts about it. One thing that sets us apart as creators and is our it's part of our drive to make and create things, to make music, to create mixes, to create things that sound better, is the the drive to look for things that need improvement. So, for example, if we've started out with no song at all and we we think, you know, life would be improved if I wrote a song, then that would be the first step. But then at the far end of the production process, you know, here we are trying to finish the mix of this this masterpiece that we've recorded. And it's just in our nature to listen and look for something that we can do, look for some adjustment that we can make, some finer point that we can tweak, you know, some frequency that we can slightly adjust, or we might hear something that, you know, maybe was a performance that we did. If we if we were playing on it ourselves, maybe we had a guitar solo that just didn't quite hit a note perfectly, and and it's in our nature to want to go try and adjust and fix that. So I think it's built in that we're always looking for something that we can do and fix. Now, you know, this this can be a bit confusing at first because it can seem like a problem, but it's actually the thing that drives us to be creators in the first place. So it's really a strength, it's really a benefit. But the problem is when to shut it off, when to say when to accept that I've done enough adjusting and enough tweaking and enough fixing to this. And when is it time to let it go, you know?

Imposter Syndrome And Speed

Marc Matthews 6:15

Yeah. So kind of like you get to a point, I've done this personally myself, where you're looking for something that possibly isn't even there, and you feel like you're just going through the motions, or you feel like you need to make a change for some whatever reason as a creative. You get to that point of diminishing returns. Um, and I I've been there.

Lij Shaw 6:37

Indeed, because um, you know, we there might even be something there. You know, I think um sometimes for myself, I I remember don't doubt my ability to find something. Again, it's a strength that we have this ability to do that, but the the issue is that we'll always find something, you know, we'll just keep finding things to change. And the real question is at a certain point, we've we've already created a good enough song and a and a good enough mix that it's gonna bring the music across and carry it over to the listener. And at that point, it's sort of out of our hands. Like, you know, if we make one more change or one more tweak to something, it may not have it's not gonna make any difference to the person who's listening. They're probably just gonna listen and decide in in a split second whether or not they like the singer's voice, you know.

Marc Matthews 7:27

Yeah, I I totally agree. It's one of those ones like, uh, you I don't know, you maybe you've got a chorus section or something like that, or you're thinking, I'm just gonna automate that vocal by half a dB. And uh the audience listening have probably already, like you say, they've already made a decision whether or not they like the singer's voice, regardless of whether or not you automate that vocal by by 0.5 or 1 dB, and you know you've made that change. However, will anybody else probably not, I find. Um, not unless they're very intentional with their listening, possibly. Is there another is there an argument to say that imposter syndrome could also come into this as well? Maybe if you are at the beginning, even I I'd tell a lie, to be fair, I still get imposter syndrome with the podcast, for example, now. So is there an element of that in there as well?

Lij Shaw 8:11

Yeah, 100%. I I still get imposter syndrome with all sorts of things, even just setting up for this interview, adjusting my camera, making sure it looks good, making sure my, you know, I don't have a crazy hair flying off my head or something like that. So, I mean, we we all experience that, and and um, the greatest superstars in the world have imposter syndrome. So it's a very, very normal, you know, human experience to have. And really the answer to imposter syndrome is just don't listen to that voice. Just don't let that voice get in your head, which is another reason for working quickly. Because when we speed up our process of creating, when we allow ourselves to move fast with the mixing and just move forward and keep keep finishing, it sort of doesn't leave enough room for the imposter syndrome voice to grow loud in our heads and and and try and shut down the process.

Too Many Plugins, Slower Work

Marc Matthews 9:08

Yeah. And I think like removing outside noise probably helps a bit as well. I think because there's a lot of I find there's a lot of content, and I'm a content creator myself, so I've I'll probably fall into this bucket, but there's a lot of content um with various tips, tricks, techniques, plugins, blah, blah, blah, that you should try on this mix and trying to um sort of not shoehorn might be the wrong word to use, but trying to think, okay, well, I'll try that, I'll try that, and try that. I've fallen into into this trap um in the in the early phases. But this kind of there's a question in here that I'm thinking with unlimited tools that we have available to us, obviously budget permitting, but in particular with DAWs now, we've got a raft of different sort of plugins and tools available to us. Does that, do you think, impact the speed and could could that impact speed workflow and then result in us mixing more than we need to?

Lij Shaw 10:00

Yeah, 100%. Because, you know, like you said, there's so much stuff. I mean, I have hundreds of plugins in my Pro Tools when I go through it. I don't even like to look at the list of options. I love the fact that you can just type a name for a plugin and just go straight to it. Because otherwise, if I look at the list, I'm gonna think the same thing. I'm gonna be like, oh my God, look at all these possibilities. Um, and to that point, I get a little frustrated sometimes when they come up with goofy names for plugins. It's like, come on, just make it really easy to remember.

Marc Matthews 10:29

I know, I know. Yeah, I get that. I don't I've I've had it before where I've I've found a plugin, it might be a free one on offer by probably not UAD. UAD are quite good at naming their plugins, I find, but other ones, and I'm thinking, I did I downloaded, I had a plugin that was supposed to do something, but I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called. Or even who the uh the uh the manufacturer is of it as as well. And I had with Logic, I don't think it's got a search feature, so you can search for plugins. I know Reaper does because they use Reaper as well. And Reaper, you can do exactly that. You can search via I think you can search via vendor as well, I could be wrong, but Logic doesn't. So I have to do exactly what you use. I've got to scroll through all of those, specifically something like Isotope, if you've got the bundle and there's just loads of plugins in there, and then I see one, I think, oh, I'll try that, and then I get lost in the weeds with that.

Lij Shaw 11:15

But good news about isotope is they're all good plugins, so you can win no matter which one you pick. But I mean, you know, um, one of the things I think is a good reminder for us too is it doesn't mean that having lots of plugins and lots of options is a problem. The problem is thinking that we're supposed to try all those options right now, and we're not. The the way to do it, and this doesn't matter whether you're writing songs, which I was just doing this weekend, um, or mixing a record or producing a record, or you know, having your entire artist career. It's it's knowing how to compartmentalize each stage of the way. And so if you want to try all your plug-ins, you want, you absolutely should do that. But you should do that on a Saturday on your own time when you're not under pressure to finish something. And don't do it on necessarily on your um masterpiece. You know, just do it on a fun song where you get to like experiment and see what all these different things do. And then on top of that, make sure that you come up with a really simple way to notate to yourself that you liked something so that you can remember it and come back and use that same plug-in and that same that same method later.

Compartmentalise Creative Stages

Marc Matthews 12:30

I totally agree. It mirrors something that I do with regards to sound design. So generally I try and sound design in a separate session. It doesn't always work that work out that way because I might make tweaks during the mixing phase, but try and do sound design separate to, for example, mixing or music production. I try and keep them separate. But as I like you say as well, with regards to trying out new plugins, very much doing that in a session where I can be more expansive and creative. I'm not, for example, if I'm working on a client's project, I'm more likely to use something I'm akin to using versus experimenting with something unless I think it's gonna um be conducive to the mix itself. But yeah, I do I do agree with that, yeah, totally with regards to separating the sessions.

Lij Shaw 13:13

There is a way to incorporate new stuff into you know a production that you're working on right now. And it's it's a kind of a fun lesson I learned from um Steve Albini when uh I was working with him at electrical studios in Chicago. And he we asked him, you know, like, do you ever because he seemed very methodical in the way that he would um set up for a recording session, and we asked him, you know, it's like do you ever like try different stuff? And he said, yes and no. Like he always likes to try one, at least one new mic on every session. Just pick one thing, you know. Otherwise, like stick to things that you know are gonna work well in that moment, but look for like one opportunity to to expand and do something unusual or different. It's sort of like the idea of the Olympic athlete training for the Olympics, you know, they're always looking to do 1% of improvement when you get to that higher level of ability. So you don't have to try everything. And if you if you did throw everything into chaos, you probably wouldn't get your project done.

Marc Matthews 14:17

Yeah. So trying something new with each project is uh it's a good one. Um, and I've done that previously with regards to production techniques, as I think is another one you could fall in, put, put into that bucket. You see a cool production technique that somebody, uh a reel or a YouTube video or something like that, rather than trying to shoehorn all those production techniques into one song or one arrangement, and ended up with this potential um I don't want to use the term mess because it might not be a mess, but something hard to decipher, let's put it that way. And then do like in each project, introducing something new and learning from that. So I think that so all of what you've discussed there are these things that you did to help you going way back to that question um that session or project where you did all those tracks in four days.

Lij Shaw 15:08

Yeah.

Marc Matthews 15:09

What you've just highlighted, that did did all that really underpin you being able to do that?

Steve Albini’s 1% Improvement Rule

The Bonnaroo Haybale Workflow

Lij Shaw 15:13

Well, yeah, because what we would do is we had this studio that was called the Haybale Studio. It was actually a hot hundreds of Haybales stacked up around a trailer in the middle of a field, farm field, and it was right behind the main stages. So all these um, you know, A-list touring bands would go play a show on the stage, and then they'd come over to the media area where the radio tent was, and they would come into our studio and we'd have one hour, just a single hour, to record three songs, two or three songs with each artist. And so I'd have to be able to work really quickly, otherwise, you couldn't get anything done. And that meant, you know, already having selected what our microphones were going to be, everything was clearly labeled. It was all coming to the mixing console on all the same faders so that I knew exactly where the drums were, exactly where the bass was, the guitars, the vocal, the effects. And then everything was in reach so that I could quickly change the delay times or quickly change the reverb amounts and stuff like that. And then when the band would start playing, I would literally mix on the fly while they were performing in a console in a pair of headphones, and that would get captured by our mastering guy, and then we'd master it right on the spot, and it would go out within an hour, you know, three songs finished and mastered. And so, you know, if you didn't quite get the mix right, you your options would be to also record it as a multi-track, and then you could just go back and maybe adjust the first verse to make sure you got the vocal levels right. But um, you know, and that's it's slightly different from doing a record in the studio where you can keep revisiting it over and over again. But the point is there was a there was a spontaneity and there was a genuine um creative energy that went into those mixes. And there was there was a spark that sort of happened in the moment with the excitement that created a whole ton of really, really great content. And those mixes were super inspired. And in fact, there were times where I went back and I tried to remix it in the studio, and the remix just sort of didn't have the same kind of excitement. So there is something to be said for um, you know, getting yourself into the headspace, the creative headspace of mixing, making decisions really quickly, and then just uh moving to the next thing. You know, there's there's a there's a famous psychology experiment that was done where they took, I don't remember the name of it, but they took a two groups of people, and one group went off and they they were given the assignment to um over a hundred days create one brilliant painting and then turn that in. And then the other group over a hundred days was given the assignment to do a painting every single day and then turn all of those in. And if you can guess what happened at the end of the hundred days when everybody got back together again, the group that was told to do one painting perfectly, like there were probably some that were pretty good, some that were okay, some that might have been pretty really good, you know. But in the group where everybody did a hundred paintings, universally it was just like way better. And the paintings were were far superior. So it's just this great testament to that importance of letting yourself iterate and move quickly, because you're gonna you're gonna actually create better work that way.

Marc Matthews 19:38

Yeah, iterate and move quickly. Uh, two two words I really like in that respect. Because I think when you're in a situation like you were, I guess you're being more intentional. You're you're going with what you're feeling at that moment, and you're making decisions based on a on a feeling, really. And you're sort of in that moment, you've got the vibe going with the band and whatnot, and it just feels right, versus the potential paralysis by analysis where you go into the studio and then you start second guessing and all that. But whereas if you've got that limitation of time, potentially resources as well, you're thinking, okay, well, this is it, I'm gonna fly with that. And I think subconsciously you you make those decisions because they're the right decisions for the most part, and just trust trust your instincts.

Iterate Fast For Better Results

Lij Shaw 20:20

And the other thing is instead of working over and over again on one song, learn how to move quickly through it through a song at a time. So if you're working on an album altogether, a collection of songs, you know, listen to a song, take notes first, and and tell yourself, like, what does this song really need? What am I trying to get when I when I sit down to mix this one right now? And then go straight for those elements and try not to get distracted by other things that you're noticing along the way, where you just kind of go off on a on a rabbit trail. But but make those decisions really quickly and then just print it, print the mix, you know, just put it aside and then go to the next song and go through all the songs. Maybe you've got a 12-song record. Try and go through all 12 that way. And then look at the record as a whole, as a collection, and I think a lot more things are going to be revealed to you about each individual song. So it's like working on it as a collection instead of just trying to get one thing perfect and then before you even move to the next thing, you know?

Marc Matthews 21:28

Yeah. Do you find if you say, for example, you print a mix and you come back to it at a later date, I often find this, but the things I was hung up on when I was in that particular session, I don't really or don't factor into my when I'm then say I I put the I print the mix and I leave it for three or four days and come back to it later. Oftentimes what I thought was an issue isn't an issue anymore.

Lij Shaw 21:50

Well, the best is when you can't even remember what the problem was, you know.

Marc Matthews 21:54

Which often happens.

Lij Shaw 21:55

Yeah. And I mean, you know, the funny thing is that even happens with musical performances. You know, if you're a musician, then you really feel that, you know, you really feel that sensitivity to how well you performed. And I remember doing an early record with my band, and I was so fixated on my the mistakes that I made in the making of the record. And I went off and I traveled for a year and I had that cassette with me, and I was listening to it everywhere, and I was like, oh, I loved it so much. But I was so frustrated that I had made these mistakes. Like I started singing when the chorus wasn't supposed to happen, stuff like that. And then I came back and rejoined the band later, and I was bringing those details up, and it turns out those had all become the band's favorite moments in the record. They loved the parts where there were mistakes in it, you know, and where where you could hear the the um the band in the moment trying to like pivot and figure out how to perform the song because that's where all the excitement was.

Marc Matthews 22:55

Yeah, you got those sort of real human moments that um almost like happy accidents in a way. I you could classify them as uh sort of, but adds yeah, that human and that human interest to a song in particular, which is really cool. I've had that when I've released when I was in my metal band, and there were bits and pieces, and there are when we Did it at the time and then we printed the mix, went for the mastering. There were bits, and they were like, Oh, I'm not quite keen on that. But now we listen to it. We're like, actually, you know what? I'm glad it stayed in in particular.

Print, Move On, Then Review

Lij Shaw 23:25

Exactly, exactly. Um yeah, it's just um I had a thought, but I I forgot what it was.

Marc Matthews 23:33

No worries, no problem. So we we one one of my topics here was with regards to uh systems that help you finish more music, and we've really been through that. So we you mentioned there you had that moment where you were mixing with time limits and the limitations of having to mix on the fly, then go to the mastery, uh, straight to mastering when you were recording uh a live performance, printing mixes and listening away from the studio is another one we've touched on. Um, and separating creative mode from technical mode. We kind of touched on that in in a way with the creative mode, but then testing plugins in isolation and and then using one new plugin or a new technique. Maybe it's a recording technique and microphone technique in your session. You don't have to do it all at once. So what I'd like to move on to next is I mentioned it briefly just now, which was recognizing, or rather the yeah, we'll go with that, recognizing the point of diminishing returns, which is quite a hard one, I find. What when do you know or when do you think you're approaching the point of diminishing returns? Is it obvious?

Spotting Diminishing Returns

Lij Shaw 24:31

Um, it it it helps when I have a daily routine and a schedule too, because then I can I can sort of be in touch with how I physically feel while I'm working. You know, if I feel like I've just been sitting for too long or I'm in front of the speakers too long, then then there's an urge to just get up and move about, and that really helps. Um taking breaks helps a lot because especially if you use like I I love to use this tool called Samply, which is a um, it's an online cloud-based browser for music and projects that I that I work on. And so it allows me to do things like, you know, get to a point and then just do a bounce of the mix quickly, and then um, you know, take a break, and then I just drag it over and put it in the project. And by the time I've walked up to the car and I'm driving off to get a snack somewhere, or I'm going to the park to go for a walk or something like that, I'm already able to hear that mix and see how it's responding when I play it back in the car. Um, or just, you know, I'm playing it off the speaker on my iPhone, you know, just going outside sitting and having having lunch or something and just play it back and see how the drums and the vocals are sitting, that kind of stuff. So it's really, really helpful. Um and just being, you know, being able to know when it is that I need to give myself breaks, knowing that I can come back and and look at it later, uh, helps a lot. But you know, the other thing about just working on stuff for too long is I think um, you know, we a lot of times we think we're finding all these things to fix and make better. But the problem is you start taking all the dynamics out. You start removing all the contrast in your music, you start removing all the bold colors, and before you know it, all you're left with is just this boring, bland sort of gray sound where nothing really does anything, you know?

Marc Matthews 26:29

Yeah, very interesting. What particularly what you mentioned at the end there, where you get to the point where you're removing all the dynamics because it rings true. And I I've I've done that before, where I mean it's mainly with with my own music when I'm when I'm going through that iterative process of mix downs, and I try and limit my mix downs down to about three or four. Anything more than that, and I'm thinking psychologically, I'm probably doing more harm than good right now if I'm going beyond this, knowing my workflow. But yeah, I I've seen that, particularly when it gets to the end of a piece. If I'm going from like a a bridge to a to a final chorus, and oftentimes that's where I find myself automating the most. And it resonates what you said there about removing the dynamics, and that's probably what I would have done in the past, thinking, you know what, that vocal's coming in a little too hot. But in hindsight, it probably needs to be like that to make it hit harder. But psychologically, I'm thinking, oh no, no, that's too loud. I need to bring it down so it's in line with everything else. Very interesting.

Don’t Flatten Your Dynamics

Lij Shaw 27:27

Well, and the other thing is, you know, I think we instinctively make decisions as performers, whether we're singing on something, whether we're playing guitars, whether you know the drummers doing a drum fill, or the bass players, you know, passing from one section to another. Um, there's there's instinctive decisions that we make. And when we're engineering, we sort of have the ability, um, you know, maybe we don't realize we're doing it, but sometimes we have this ability and we're we're in the process of sort of undoing those decisions by making changes to everything. And that and you've sort of undone the performance in a way which can take the life out of stuff, you know. If you've ever had a rough mix and you've thought, and then you've gone and worked on the mix, and then you come back later and you think, why does that rough mix have all this excitement to it? And my final mix sort of doesn't, you know. It's it's because we go in and we try and undo stuff, or we try and make things happen that just didn't happen.

Marc Matthews 28:29

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I've done that before where you you've got the the rough mix, or the artist has sent me a rough mix, and I've I've I've got it in as a reference as I always do, and then I go through the balancing process, get my static mix, and then I listen back and I'm thinking, their rough mix has more life, it just sounds there's more energy to it. And it's because I've been too technical with my approach to to the mix. Whereas with the rough mix, they've just gone with feel and emotion and what they were trying to capture at the time, um, maybe with some subtle level move moves or some panning. Whereas I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I should probably lean more towards the rough mix that the client has sent me versus my interpretation again, which is probably a little too technical.

Rough Mix Magic And Feel

Lij Shaw 29:12

So well, and the other thing about a rough mix is a lot of times they happen in the moment, in the session. And there's a there's a lot to be said for you know what kind of state of mind and and creative thinking you're experiencing when you're actually in the session. It's one of the reasons why I don't like to save overdubs for later, you know? It's like to come back. I mean, that's right now I'm experiencing that. I'm I'm I'm fully guilty right now of not finishing a record that I started in 2019 because I keep thinking it needs more, you know. It still needs something. And then meanwhile, I've made like 10 records between then and now where we just cranked them out and they they all turned out great. So it's there's something to be said for um, you know, what what happens when you're when you're immersed in the making of the music and you're in that moment and you make all these quick decisions? And the more you separate yourself, the slower that decision process gets.

Marc Matthews 30:11

Yeah, that's 2019. That's I was doing my maths then, quick maths, uh seven years, and you've put out records in between now and then. Is it in the same sort of genre of music as the other record you put out, or is it or is it?

Lij Shaw 30:26

It's definitely a rock record. It's a band, you know, it's electric guitar, bass drums. Um, and I'm singing on it. So it's not an instrumental record. It's it's um, you know, it's it's me singing. It's uh it's a bunch of you know broken hearted love songs and stuff like that. So um it's it's it's there's a lot of great stuff. I'm really, really excited about the record, but I just need to I just need to decide, all right, it's time to sit down, make this one done. You know, I doesn't mean that we need to put things out that we know aren't good. I don't think we need to do that, but I think we need to um allow ourselves to just say today I'm just gonna finish this, you know. I'm gonna I'm gonna make this my priority and and finish this this song, this record, this project.

Marc Matthews 31:12

Yeah, I agree. I don't think you need to release everything, even if you can just exercising that creative muscle of recording, mixing, arrangement before mixing, then mastering as well. Um I've got projects sat in folders where they're probably at a phase where subtle tweaks I could release them, but likelihood is I probably won't. This is my own personal stuff. Um but I'm glad I went through the process of creating it because I learned something new every time. Um so touching on our sort of last topic here, uh, as we're coming to the end of our uh conversation, letting go of perfection. We've kind of we sort of touched on it briefly already, um, but we kind of like close the mindset loop. How do we let go of perfect perfection? Which might be a very open-ended question or Hartman to answer.

Time Limits Beat Perfection

Lij Shaw 31:59

Well, I mean, it helps me to let go based on time constraints. You know, for example, if I bring in my band and we've got one weekend to do everything, and the and the rule of thumb is if it's going to be on this record, we got to do it now. That helps a lot because then, you know, then I what I do is I just put my all into it. I just put everything I've got into getting it the best it can be right then and there. And there is there's plenty to be said for the the power of editing, you know, when it comes to authors and books, they say that um um or maybe it's maybe it's songs too. Great great songs aren't written, they're rewritten. I think that was the expression I'm thinking of too, which is definitely true for books, you know. Um authors don't put out their first draft of the book, you know, it goes through an editing process and then it gets better. So our music and our records do get better if they go through an editing process, but the editing editing process can't take forever either. You know, just like the just like the you know, you don't want to do endless takes of the vocal, you don't want to do endless tweaks of the mix, you don't want to do endless edits of the drums until there's until there's no excitement left. Um and and really the um at each one of those stages, the thing that um that helps it have a beginning, middle, and an end is the end. You gotta have that ending. You just gotta decide. This is this is my deadline, you know.

Marc Matthews 33:31

Yeah. What you mentioned about the um nothing is ever written. I think to paraphrase written, it's rewritten. That echoes a conversation I had with someone else on the podcast. Like I I kind of remember who it was, there was another, there was a a producer who mentioned it as well, and it it stemmed this conversation I had about rewrites. So it's definitely something I've heard before, and it makes total sense, particularly with books as well, like and the first iteration of a book.

Lij Shaw 33:58

And even with mixes, I mean, you know, uh all the great mixers that I've interviewed on my show, they all say that, you know, the the key is to finish your day, um, put your mix aside, get it to where you think it needs to be, and then stop. Don't keep, don't push yourself too far. Don't go too far. Don't don't go in, don't go into mental exhaustion. Just stop and then take take the evening off, you know, go have dinner with your family or whatever. And then in the morning, come back when with fresh ears, listen again and see where it where you left it. And you'll it just like so much will be revealed, you know. And then in that moment, that's when you get the chance to go like, oh, I hear it now. Yeah, this just needed a little bit of tweak. Oh, that's all it needed, you know. And then you can print it and and share it. And give feedback too. That helps a lot.

Marc Matthews 34:49

Yeah, I I was gonna mention that in in a in a bit, but yeah, feedback in particular. If you can get a second set of ears or even two or three sets of ears on it as well. And I often find that when I send it out for feedback, I'll send it out sort of without any prompts for like, oh, I'm struggling with this part or does this part. I'll wait for them to feedback to me. And oftentimes they won't even mention the thing that I thought was an issue. They'll probably mention something else. Um, but I often find that helps add clarity because if they can't hear the slight issue I think there is with that snare build, then the likelihood is that that no one else can as well. Right.

Lij Shaw 35:24

Again, the snare build wasn't the problem. Um, people have already decided whether they like the singer's voice or not.

Marc Matthews 35:31

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Or the sound of the or the kick or the snare or the guitar tone, even before they've started factored in how they're positioned left or right, you know, um, 100%. One thing I was gonna ask, so you you use Samply, right?

Lij Shaw 35:47

Yeah, Samply I use all the time. I love it.

Marc Matthews 35:49

Yeah. And just for the audience listening, that's a platform whereby they can upload tracks uh into projects and then stream them.

Fresh Ears And Feedback

Lij Shaw 35:57

Yeah, so you can, it's it's sort of like um a Dropbox for music, but it's much better than Dropbox for music. So you can create a project, you can share it with the the um band that you're working with, you can share it with the other songwriters in your band. Um when you make a new version of something. Let's say so we'll use it for um a whole record. So we'll start by uploading the demos of the songs there. They'll just be the song sketches. And then once we've recorded in the studio um or re-re-recorded the demo, that gets uploaded and it layers on top. So you have all these layers, so you can have a whole history of the song right in there. And you can go back and hear the the earlier rough mix and you can hear the newer mix and stuff like that, and it level matches between the two, so that when you're auditioning, you can really find out like, am I are we making this song better or are we making it worse, you know, and we're just going down the wrong side of the hill now?

Marc Matthews 36:56

I was gonna ask, does it gain match? Because oftentimes loudness can be that false um, oh, it's better because psychologically it's it sounds louder, so it must be better. So game matching is there there was another um question off the back of that. And it's regards to what you said earlier about you print the mix, then you will get up on your phone, go out to the car, maybe listen to it on the commute home. Do you make notes as you're doing that to then go back into the studio and make changes, or do you just go back to the studio, listen to it again, and make notes in a separate session?

Lij Shaw 37:29

No, no, I absolutely make notes outside of the studio if I can. It's one of my favorite things to do. It's tricky because we still have to drive our own cars for the most part these days, which means that you can't really be typing your notes while you're listening in the car. But one day, I'm hopeful, one day. Although the truth is, I think music, the experience of music listening to music will be different when you aren't driving the car yourself. Yeah. Because I think there's a there, if you've ever noticed when you're distracted and you're listening to the music, things leap out to you. You immediately have ideas about it. And it's because of that having your your focus in two places at once, I think. So if we're not actually driving the car, the whole experience of listening to music in the car is probably gonna change slightly for us.

Car Checks, Notes, And Tools

Marc Matthews 38:23

Yeah, I think you're right as well. Because I think there is an element when a song is played when you're driving, there is an emotional impact to you the way you drive when a song is played. Um, I'm not saying I speed by any stretch, but there are songs or genres of music that when I listen to them, I probably drive a little faster where when it when it when they're playing, you know. I'm thinking of the classic scene from um Rocky Four with the montage scene in particular when a song comes on and you have that, it's got that emotional impact. Whereas if you're if you're in the passenger seat, I I don't know if it hits as hard when that music comes on.

Lij Shaw 39:02

So there'll be something to be said for you know what the experience is in the passenger seats, too. But yeah, I agree with you. I think I think it's yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, we digress at this point, but yeah, you know, it's fascinating to think how like everybody sitting in a different place in the car has a different experience of the music.

Marc Matthews 39:19

Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Yeah, interesting. So you go, folks, next time you're in the car, um, switch seats if you can with the driver with the passengers behind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't just jump over to the passenger seat when you're going down the motorway or the freeway if you're in the States. Uh yeah, and then check out the same song but in different positions in the car and see how it sounds. Um if you do that in your driveway, your neighbors might think you're a bit odd, but hey-ho, there we go. It's one of those things.

Lij Shaw 39:47

So here's a here's a new tip I realized. So I just got this. Um, I hope you can see it here. I got an Apple Watch recently. And one of the things that's cool is uh it still has a voice memo on it and it has the notes app, but it has the voice memo. So I could literally be playing the song off my phone to the car speakers and then using the voice memo on the phone to take notes while it's doing both, which could be helpful. You know, that could be a helpful way to do it. Yeah. Because otherwise the phone's occupied, you know.

Listener Challenge And Resources

Marc Matthews 40:17

Yeah, yeah. Or unless you like say you get to the point where you have driverless cars. Um, I was chatting to someone else the other day, someone they had a driverless car, and I was just it's just the idea of it sounds wild. Probably easy. Bear in mind in the UK, I think we're very, very um, I was gonna say cluttered, but the traffic over here is terrible. I just driverless cars over here would be wild. Anyway, that's it. That there's a whole other podcast dedicated to driverless cars. But um, folks, listening, here's a challenge to you. Apart from sitting in different seats in the car and experiencing the same mix, uh, take one unfinished track this week and commit to a final version no two weeks after. And uh click the link in the show notes, send me a message, and um I'll give it a shout out on the podcast if you do release it or if you want to share it. Or just let us know how you get on. That'd be amazing. Always interested to listen to what you guys are up to. Lidge, uh, it's been a pleasure having you back on the podcast today and talk all things mixing mindset. Very much.

Lij Shaw 41:15

Mark, it's been great to be back, man. It's uh I love talking about this stuff and big shout out to your audience, especially by the fact that they're about to finish a mix. That's exciting news.

Marc Matthews 41:24

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I I do enjoy uh getting the feedback on where people are with their mixes and how the podcast and the guests I've had on have him impacted them. It's always amazing to hear. Uh, I think the biggest takeaway, I'll take away from this episode, takeaway, I'll takeaway, the biggest takeaway for me is um that sort of epiphany moment when you said about editing and removing dynamics and excitement. So I think that's uh because it's something I fall foul of and I probably still fall foul of now when I'm doing my own stuff. So, audience listening, don't over-edit, over-mix, and remove the excitement and dynamics from your tracks. Uh Lidge, I'd be doing you a disservice if I didn't give you the opportunity just to um share with the audience where they can find out more about you, if this is the first time they've encountered you, uh, and maybe something you're up to at the moment.

Lij Shaw 42:12

Absolutely. Yeah. So um again, my name is Lidge Shaw. And if you love listening to podcasts about making records, you can also come check out my podcast, which also has Mark on it, uh, Recording Studio Rock Stars. And it's uh it's lots of interviews with producers and engineers and music makers. Um, I have a studio called the Toy Box Studio here in East Nashville. And um, I'll I'll give you you guys links, the Toyboxstudio.com and Recording Studio Rockstars.com. And then just lastly, if you um if you're curious about some some fundamental mixing stuff that will really just help level up your mix too, I have a free uh course called mixmasterbundle.com. And that that is just a free, simple course. It's gonna give you some really basic fundamental um things that will help level up your mix so you can get ready for turning in here at uh at the Inside the Mix podcast.

Closing Thoughts And Links

Marc Matthews 43:09

Yes. Yeah, there we go. Use all of those resources, folks. I'll put links to all those um resources and whatnot in the show notes. So do go check all that out and then feedback to us. Uh Lidge, it's been an absolute pleasure. Um, folks, before you go, do go check out episode 168 if you haven't done so already. Um, I should probably have listened to that before this one to see where there might be correlations and or maybe differences before between this and our previous conversation, because that is 168, so that's probably well over a year ago, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So be yeah, time does fly, man. So be interesting to see what you think, folks, whether or not we're chatting the same thing or something totally different altogether. Um again, Lidge, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Uh, no doubt we will do it again at some point. Um, folks, keep creating, keep mixing, and I will see you in the next episode.