Episode 64: Ministry Is Where You Are Right Now (Guest: Karen Harmon)

Today, we're privileged to engage in a conversation with Karen Harmon about ministry and aligning ourselves with God's plan. We delve into the understanding that ministry isn't confined to church settings or grand platforms; it's present in the everyday moments, whether at home, work, or wherever you currently reside. This episode aims to uplift and reassure you that regardless of your circumstances, you hold the power to make a meaningful impact in God's kingdom.

Takeaways:

Trust God's direction and surrender to His will.
Measure success in ministry by obedience and faithfulness, not by worldly standards.
Value the impact of small acts of ministry and one-on-one interactions.
Focus on loving God, loving others, and being faithful in the small things. 
See closed doors as redirection from God and trust His plan.
Make the most of every opportunity and be diligent in your current circumstances.
Shift from asking 'why' to asking 'what' and surrender to God's plan.
Redefine ministry and focus on God's call rather than comparing yourself to others.

Transcript

Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Leaving the Shallows podcast. We're really excited that you are tuning in with us today. And we hope that you did catch our last episode on

Karen Harmon (03:42.131)
So good.

Jackie (03:58.747)
parenting with being led by the Holy Spirit. I know that even hearing you talking about your experience Heather with it was really encouraging for me. So I know that it will encourage you guys as listeners and but today we have one of my really good friends Karen Harmon on with us and Karen and I met we actually met at a conference in Austin. She was a speaker there and I was emceeing the conference and we found out we had we didn't realize this but we found out we lived 10 minutes apart, 10 minutes away from each other in the Dallas area and we went to the same church and so we were like what? So we were able to connect after that and I quickly realized that Karen has such a heart for the Lord. I've actually wanted to get her on this podcast for a while now so I'm really excited that she's here.

Heather Bradley (04:29.582)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (04:36.046)
So wild.

Heather Bradley (04:50.478)
Hehehehe.

Jackie (04:54.619)
I know that as you guys listen to her, you're going to see that there's so much wisdom and the things that Karen has to say. And she really align her heart is really aligned with mine and Heather's in that she loves pointing people to Jesus. She will always give the glory to Jesus and that is what we have been doing with the guests that we've been recently having on. We're having different guests from all different walks of life and we're going to have a couple of guys on in the next few weeks that are also in like totally different walks of life than what we've had on usually. But we want you guys to see how God moves in all these different people's lives. It doesn't matter what platform you have.

Heather Bradley (05:21.806)
Hehehe.

Heather Bradley (05:27.222)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (05:38.907)
whether you're a state home mom or you're a business woman or you're a coach or speaker, author, God can do miracles in you and through you where he has you right now. No position that he has you in is too insignificant or too small for him to lead you in a place of influence with the people that he has in your life right now. And so,

Heather Bradley (05:39.148)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (05:52.012)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (05:59.982)
Yeah, amen.

Jackie (06:05.379)
With that being said, Karen, before we get going into this, well, first I would like to say, I'm going to give you a minute to introduce yourself with some of your, um, like what you do, how many kids you have, that kind of thing. But Karen  is a speaker. She's a writer. She's done work with Propel Ministries with Christine Kane. And I know that you guys, again, like I said, you guys are gonna love what she has to say today. So Karen, why don't you take a minute and introduce yourself a little bit more and tell people a little bit more of who you are.

Karen Harmon (06:58.419)
Thank you both for having me first of all. It's such an honor to be here. And I'm so glad that we finally made this happen. Even though we only live like 10 minutes away, like organizing three different schedules. It's so ridiculous how long it's taken. But yeah, it's truly an honor to be with you and with your audience and everything today. But like Jackie said, we live here in the Dallas, Fort Worth area in a little suburb, not too far from the big airport that everybody probably knows. But my husband Lee and I have been married a little over 19 years.

Heather Bradley (07:04.59)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Jackie (07:05.499)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (07:09.55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie (07:10.491)
It is, yeah.

Karen Harmon (07:28.019)
We have three kids, the two girls, they're older, are 16 and 13, and then our little guy is five. He was a fun little surprise in our 40s and supposedly keeping us young, but I seem to have more gray hairs than I ever have had before, but he's so much fun. I homeschool them, but I'm also a physical therapist and I own my own practice.

Heather Bradley (07:37.55)
You

Heather Bradley (07:42.382)
You

Jackie (07:46.683)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (07:51.123)
And I love the local church. I love serving in the local church. And I've been doing that for several years on the worship team. And then I oversee some women's groups and lead some and teach at some leadership development classes. And then like Jackie said, I do a little bit of writing and some speaking as well. And my heart is to encourage the multi -passionate women and for her to live and lead intentionally and fully right where she's at all for the glory of God.

Jackie (09:05.499)
Okay, yeah. So Karen, you and I were talking, we went for coffee a little while ago and I just, I love, I genuinely love going for coffee with you because I love receiving the wisdom that you have and you have given me such good sound advice. And this particular time that we were having coffee, we were talking about the cost that can come with ministry and you even mentioned sometimes, because you've had a lot of opportunities to speak.

but that how sometimes there's moments where you have to say yes to a speaking engagement. Sometimes you have to say no. And I know that a lot of times when opportunities come our way, we think that because they're good opportunities, like especially with speaking and writing, and I mean, really any kind of opportunity that comes your way that you want to flourish in, you feel the need to say yes.

Heather Bradley (09:50.798)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jackie (09:59.835)
but I know that you've shared with me that there's many that you've said no, and that every opportunity that comes before you, you pray, but why don't you just share a little bit about that from it? Like, how do you really know what opportunities you should say yes to, what opportunities you should say no to, and yeah.

Karen Harmon (10:22.387)
Well, I think for me, there's really a difference between a good idea and a God idea. And that's how I always say it. There's a lot of good ideas, right, that happen, but they're not always God ideas. And so I'm always taking everything back, whether it's a speaking opportunity or writing opportunity, or even simply serving at my church. Jackie and I go to the same church. We go to a very large church. And so serving there can require a lot of time.

Heather Bradley (10:27.918)
Hmm.

Heather Bradley (10:31.372)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (10:50.003)
requires a lot of effort for me to be away from home, requires a lot of juggling with my husband, with all the kids and their activities, right? So it's not just the big things, whether I said to say yes or no to, but even serving at my church and the little things, you know, saying yes or no to. So really weighing and going, okay, which one's a God idea for me? Which one's a good idea? And the way that I discern that and the way the Lord shows me that is one, obviously prayer. I think sometimes we can go, oh yeah, everybody says that.

Heather Bradley (11:00.27)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (11:08.748)
Mm.

Jackie (11:14.587)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (11:16.403)
But it's true. Like, if we don't take it to prayer, then we're doing something wrong, right? Like to me, I always want to take it to him first because if I don't have his approval on it, I definitely don't want to take that step. Now, in saying that, there are times and there are moments and situations where I don't get like a clear yes or a clear no, just to be completely honest. There are times in my life where it's hard.

Jackie (11:19.963)
Yes. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (11:20.59)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (11:29.006)
Mm -hmm, right.

Heather Bradley (11:38.606)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (11:39.099)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (11:44.371)
to know which way to go and which way not to go. And then you get a lot of fear and hesitation. Do I take that step? Do I not take that step? And so if you're in that season of like, okay, that's great, Karen, good idea, God idea, great, pray, not pray. Well, what if I'm not hearing anything, right? And I think sometimes for me, when I'm in that season, I have to always remember that I am not powerful enough to be out of the will of God. Like I'm not powerful enough to change his will. I'm not powerful enough to mess anything up.

Heather Bradley (11:45.802)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (11:47.579)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (11:59.118)
Yeah.

Jackie (11:59.963)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (12:09.42)
Mm -hmm. That's good. Yeah.

Jackie (12:09.883)
That is so good.

Karen Harmon (12:13.971)
because he's still good and he's still sovereign. And as long as I choose to live in the shadow of his wing, and as long as I choose to live under his authority and under his wisdom and listen to the discernment and direction and comfort of the Holy Spirit, as long as I'm doing that, I can't make a wrong move. Because even if I do, he will be so faithful and good to direct me back through that detour. And then on top of that, show me new things and other things along the way.

Heather Bradley (12:16.63)
Amen.

Jackie (12:17.083)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (12:25.998)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (12:30.446)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (12:42.003)
and learning to fail forward in those situations instead of thinking like, oh man, I totally missed God because he does turn around everything for our good, for his glory and for our good is what Romans tells us, right? So that everything works out for good for those who love the Lord. And so when I live life according to that, I know I can't be out of his will. So sometimes it does require just taking that step forward and trusting that he's there. But then you know very quickly, like you take that step forward and you're like, oh wait, maybe this wasn't God, right? Maybe this was not.

Heather Bradley (12:44.726)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jackie (12:48.699)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (12:55.318)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (12:56.411)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (13:00.75)
Yeah.

Mm.

Heather Bradley (13:08.878)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (13:11.923)
Okay, okay Lord, well show me how to get right back, right? So don't get stuck in that place of, oh gosh, I'm afraid to miss God. So what if I say yes to this and it was supposed to be a no, or what if I say no to this and it's supposed to be a yes? He has been so faithful and I've seen this time and time again to turn what I would have thought were misses or obstacles or wrong decisions or wrong turns and he's turned that around for his glory. And it's been the most beautiful redirection and the most beautiful pivot.

Jackie (13:13.371)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie (13:19.675)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (13:34.464)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (13:41.117)
And we can camp there for a long time. But for me, it's taking it to prayer first and foremost to go, okay, is this a yes? Is this a no? And then weighing the cost of whatever decision that I make. And I know this isn't a topic that's like, people are like, oh great, yeah, let's talk about the cost. Like nobody really wants to talk about the cost. But when we look at scripture and we look at the cost of being a disciple of Christ.

Heather Bradley (13:45.678)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Jackie (13:52.787)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (13:59.054)
Yay.

Jackie (14:02.971)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (14:07.734)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (14:08.915)
And we look through Luke and I think Luke does such a beautiful job of talking about the cost of being a disciple, talking about the cost of obedience to him over outcome in the natural, you know, talking about the cost of his fruit being the most important thing in our lives, not just our own personal gain, right? But it's like Luke 9, Luke 14, we see it time and time again, take up your cross, right?

Heather Bradley (14:22.55)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (14:30.892)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (14:36.044)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (14:36.147)
and follow me. What does that really mean? Lay down your life and follow me. So when I'm looking at those decisions, what cost am I willing to make? In the natural, well, obviously in the spiritual, the cost is I don't want to be out of the will of God. I think that's a given. But in the natural, I mean, we're talking about real stuff here. There's a cost and what cost am I willing to make? So let's just talk about a bigger platform, right? So speaking opportunities.

Heather Bradley (14:44.654)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (14:48.974)
Yeah.

Jackie (14:49.307)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (14:53.836)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jackie (14:54.075)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (15:01.907)
things that take me traveling or TV or conferences, different things like that, that, you know, it's like, wow, okay, I get invited to these awesome things. Like, this is amazing. Like, what a great opportunity. But they're not always yeses because it comes at a cost to my family or it comes at a cost to my peace. It comes at a cost to my health. It comes at a cost to my joy.

Heather Bradley (15:18.926)
Yeah.

Mm.

Karen Harmon (15:27.347)
And I think sometimes we're willing to pay those costs and think that they're not as important because this opportunity is so awesome. And I think that that's just not the best place to live, at least in my 46 years of life. And maybe this comes with age, but it's just not worth the striving. I would much rather surrender than strive. And for me, like looking at that cost and going, okay, I take it to my husband. Okay, babe. Like if I'm gone,

Heather Bradley (15:32.654)
Hmm. Hmm.

Heather Bradley (15:39.436)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (15:48.078)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (15:55.827)
from this day to this day, or if I'm having to prepare for something from this day to this day, or if I choose to lead a life group every week, or tape a podcast every week, or whatever. So these are the time requirements that this is gonna require. Taking that to him as my partner, especially since we have kids that we have to kind of juggle around and do all their activities and things like that, taking that to him, we pray about it together. Taking it to my girls, they're older now, so they can...

Heather Bradley (15:56.078)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (16:07.286)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (16:13.068)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (16:22.643)
kind of weigh in on these decisions. Is it okay if I miss this game? Is it okay if I miss this theater performance? Is it okay if I miss this recital? Is it okay if I miss this? Or would you want me there? And I mean, it's literally that honest. And they are given that permission to say, yes, mom, I really would prefer you being there or no, mom, I don't. Because the last thing I wanna do is to lose my family for the sake of the gospel. I don't think that that is God's plan.

Heather Bradley (16:27.532)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (16:34.446)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (16:47.47)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -mm.

Karen Harmon (16:50.547)
And I know that's kind of a bold statement, but I don't want to lose my marriage for the sake of my ministry. And that's just not a cost I'm willing to pay. And so when we talk about cost and the natural, we're talking about a lot of those things, right? Saying our best yes, we've heard that phrase time and time again. And I think when we look at our best yes, it's that obedience to what the Lord has for us. And then it's also understanding what cost.

Heather Bradley (16:53.038)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (16:57.806)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (17:01.998)
Hmm.

Jackie (17:02.127)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (17:07.79)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (17:15.308)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (17:19.155)
Are we willing to pay in that?

Heather Bradley (17:21.614)
Yeah, that's so good.

Jackie (17:22.555)
love that you're talking about how you bring your family in on it because I, that my belief is Josh and I, my husband and I, we are a team and we move forward together. We may be having set different roles and, and having like, he may do a work that doesn't really have to do with mine, but we are together as a team. We move forward as a team. And I always tell my kids that our family is a team. And whenever I,

Heather Bradley (17:27.342)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (17:37.23)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (17:45.356)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (17:46.547)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (17:51.18)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (17:52.027)
pray for my family. I always see us lined up hand in hand, moving forward as a unit, instead of like one person pulling the rest or, you know, I'm pulling to the left, Josh is pulling to the right. And so I'm the same when there's opportunities that come my way, I bring it to Josh and we discuss it. So I love that, Karen, I love that you bring the family in because those opportunities definitely do affect the family.

Heather Bradley (17:57.55)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (18:07.118)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (18:10.742)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (18:21.134)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie (18:21.179)
So I love that you put that as a priority.

Karen Harmon (18:21.427)
Well, and I think even, I don't know if there's any single women listening to this or divorced women or widows, and maybe they don't feel like they have someone to go to. I want to encourage them, you're not alone in this and there's friends, coworkers, people that are mentors in your life or people that are even in authority and leadership over you. If you don't have that, I want to encourage you to find a local church.

Heather Bradley (18:26.574)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (18:32.462)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (18:36.814)
you

Heather Bradley (18:41.324)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (18:51.431)
No place is perfect, as we all know. We've all been there. And we have a whole other podcast on that, I'm sure. No place is perfect. There's always going to be issues, but there is something so beautiful about the community of Christ and the body of Christ. And it is literally a way that we can be and demonstrate and be impacted by His hands and feet. And so for those of us that may feel like they're alone or they don't have a spouse to lean on, find someone.

Heather Bradley (18:51.694)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jackie (18:55.053)
Yes. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (18:56.91)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (19:02.638)
Right.

Mm -hmm.

Jackie (19:05.755)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (19:11.886)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (19:19.635)
Find someone in your circle, find someone in leadership over you, put yourself out there to find community so that you have that with someone to bounce stuff off of, I think is so important.

Heather Bradley (19:28.95)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (19:29.339)
Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I always, what you're talking about, like when you pray and stuff beforehand, I call that being Holy spirit led. And so I, I, I want, I want to just jump back here for a second. When you were talking about not knowing something, well, sometimes you don't have a clear yes or no and how that can be scary. Um, I used to, those situations used to kind of paralyze me.

Karen Harmon (19:38.387)
Yeah. Yes.

Heather Bradley (19:40.302)
Ha ha ha.

Jackie (19:57.851)
And so I just didn't want to move. But as I'm only 37, I don't have a whole ton of life under my belt. But I have seen enough of how God has moved in our lives by when you start walking, like you said, Karen, like I love that you said, we are not strong. You said we're not powerful enough to mess up God's will for your life. Is that the word, essentially what you said?

Heather Bradley (20:00.556)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (20:14.062)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (20:19.95)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (20:22.931)
we're not powerful enough to change his sovereignty. He's still sovereign no matter what. Just not that powerful. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (20:25.326)
Yeah.

Jackie (20:25.595)
Yes. Yes. So yeah, I've found that a lot of times you have to start moving and just start like it when we surrender our ways to him, he directs our path, right? But sometimes we just have to start walking and then he does direct. And so now when my husband and I make decisions and we don't have a clear yes or no, I'm like, well, let's just start moving. Let's just start walking.

Karen Harmon (20:38.445)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (20:40.782)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (20:51.31)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (20:52.603)
And I know, and I know, I know that God will open the doors that need to be open and he will close the ones that need to be closed because he is good. He's not going to let us like just go completely off the path. He, he directs just like on the GPS. Every time I'm driving, I'm a pastor's kid. I can make anything into a sermon. And so while I'm driving and I get off onto or I miss a turn or something, what does my GPS do?

Heather Bradley (20:57.326)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (21:00.141)
Absolutely. Yes.

Heather Bradley (21:05.294)
Mm -mm.

Mm -hmm.

Hehehe

Karen Harmon (21:11.825)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (21:20.307)
Right.

Jackie (21:20.443)
It gives me another route. It gets me back on the path. How much more does our God do that for us?

Heather Bradley (21:21.71)
Yep, redirects.

Karen Harmon (21:23.123)
Right, right, right. Well, and that's the thing too. I think sometimes people get paralyzed in making a decision because they're so focused on the outcome. And so they get paralyzed because they're thinking, what's the outcome gonna be in this? Like, what is this gonna look like on the other side if I say yes? Or what is this gonna look like on the other side if I say no? And really all he's asking is for our obedience and our willingness to surrender. And in that he goes, okay, you're taking...

Heather Bradley (21:26.574)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (21:32.462)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (21:39.66)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (21:49.122)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (21:53.139)
line step of faith without seeing a step in front of you. You're taking that blind step. Okay, when you say you trust me, you really do. Like even when you don't see that step in front of you, you are still choosing to take that step even though you don't trust me. And I think sometimes we think that we have to do these big, huge grand things and that's ministry. And we think the bigger it is, the more effective it is. And so we sometimes get paralyzed in that moment because we want this big outcome and we want this big result.

Heather Bradley (21:54.636)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (22:00.558)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (22:09.43)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (22:14.666)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (22:20.086)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (22:22.003)
and we want this big platform and we negate the trenches as being sometimes more valuable than the pursuit of that platform. And so, well, not even sometimes, I think all the time. I think the trenches have so much more beauty than the platform does in many ways. And I think sometimes we negate obscurity and we negate the beauty of obscurity for pursuit of being seen and pursuit of being known.

Heather Bradley (22:25.838)
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (22:34.03)
Yeah, amen, yeah.

Yes.

Heather Bradley (22:44.598)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jackie (22:46.413)
you

Karen Harmon (22:48.467)
And that then paralyzes us. Like, oh, she's writing a book and she's building this platform and oh, she's got millions of followers and oh, she's getting all these speaking engagements and I got nothing. And they're like, no, oh my goodness. You're serving your home. You're serving your marriage. You're serving in your church. You're serving your community. I think sometimes even like the grocery store clerk, right? Like taking a moment to smile, taking a moment to ask the waitress how she's doing.

Heather Bradley (22:52.812)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (22:58.094)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (23:02.828)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (23:09.358)
Yes. Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (23:16.275)
taking a moment to ask the fellow soccer mom that you're both sitting in that uncomfortable chair on the sidelines in the blazing heat to just say, how are you? You know, I've had the most amazing moments and Jackie will kind of testify to this is just one -on -one coffees with people have been some of the most life -changing experiences for me, right? And sometimes we in our humanness and in the natural world that we live in, in this digital age, if it's not seen by many.

Heather Bradley (23:21.55)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jackie (23:21.787)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (23:26.222)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (23:33.038)
Yeah, it's my fave. Mm -hmm.

Jackie (23:35.291)
love it.

Heather Bradley (23:41.038)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (23:45.907)
If it's not, if it doesn't come with all these accolades, we think that we're not effective for the kingdom. And I think that's such a lie of the enemy. And it's a way that he does paralyze us because then we're not fulfilling and walking and taking those steps of obedience to him and walking with the power of the Holy Spirit, because we're so afraid that that outcome isn't going to be enough. When he's like, oh my goodness, I'm more than enough. You don't need to measure your success by numbers.

Heather Bradley (23:48.686)
Hmm.

Heather Bradley (23:52.174)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Bradley (24:02.702)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (24:08.718)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (24:12.462)
and

Karen Harmon (24:15.315)
You just need to measure your success by that obedience to me. And let me take care of the rest, right? Anyway, I'll go on and on about it, but.

Heather Bradley (24:15.662)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (24:19.182)
Yeah. Amen. Yeah.

Jackie (24:19.483)
Hmm.

Heather Bradley (24:25.102)
Yeah. Well, and he, and he does, and I think there's something I love when you're talking about how ministry happens in the trenches, but we, we, but we want the other, but really what people don't always realize is what happened in the trenches might help you with the other. And I know that often that's what the Lord told me, you know, before I ever tried to ride or do podcasts or anything, he was like, make sure you always keep boots on the ground. And I've always thought about that. I love that because you can't.

Karen Harmon (24:32.627)
Yes. Yep.

Karen Harmon (24:41.139)
written.

Karen Harmon (24:50.227)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (24:52.99)
segregate yourself away from people. Jesus was with people. It's always about the people. And if we just, you know, segregate ourselves away and if this is all we ever do, well, that's great, but you're missing kind of the point, right? And so to me, the boots on the ground analogy that the Lord spoke to me is about the trenches. And I've always told people that, you know, my kids are grown now and I homeschooled them and we've lived all over and we've done all the things. And I had some very difficult

one child that was very difficult. And, but what I learned when I laid down ministry that I knew that the Lord was calling me to, when he called me to spend years in the trenches doing that, it was a surrender. It was a cost I had to count because I laid something down that I wanted to do what was needed, which was the best ministry I learned. And being in the trenches with, as a homeschooling mom and being with my kids, to me, that taught me everything.

And you know, it taught me about ministry. It taught me how to serve. It taught me how to lay down. It taught me how to, to keep going and to not grow. It taught me everything that Jesus, I mean, just getting in the trenches of your family every day is real ministry. And that trains you so well to get out there and help other people. If you, if you have a family in front of you. And so, um, but what I love about the Lord is like you said, we can't get out of his will. We, you know, we can.

Karen Harmon (25:53.555)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (26:19.95)
we can go around about and like the GPS analogy can do all these things. And that's been the story of my life. When I've laid things down that I thought that the Lord's asked me to do, to do what was the most important in front of me, he has a way of bringing those desires of our heart back. Right? And so when I laid down ministry, like being involved in the local church, you know, it wasn't that I didn't still volunteer or being it, you know, it,

Jackie (26:26.619)
Yeah.

Jackie (26:37.499)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (26:46.222)
I had to put a lot of focus on one of my very special need kids for many years. But then once the Lord brought me to a place where they grew up and they were getting older, he started, he brought me like full circle back to just about everything I laid down. And I didn't have, and I've told that story to Jackie sometimes I didn't have to strive for that. I didn't have to make it happen. I just had to lay it down, count the costs, let it go to obey his voice. And then he did it.

Karen Harmon (27:03.315)
of it.

Karen Harmon (27:06.867)
Yeah. Right. Yep.

Heather Bradley (27:16.078)
I didn't do anything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Karen Harmon (27:17.651)
nothing. I do. And I love that you said that Heather, because I think sometimes people go like, we kind of said this, like, if I'm called to pull away a little bit in the world's eyes, or I'm called to come home, if you will, in the world's eyes, I'm going backwards in ministry. And really, it may be the world's backwards, but it's the kingdom forward advancement.

Jackie (27:20.225)
Thank you.

Heather Bradley (27:21.548)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (27:28.374)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yep.

Heather Bradley (27:42.658)
Yes. Amen. Absolutely.

Karen Harmon (27:46.131)
You know, and we get so, and I'll kind of get on my soapbox here, but I'm like, I always tell people, I'm like, this is not my home. Like we're just passing through. Like we get so caught up in this temporary carnal definition of success in ministry. And we just think here, and it's like, no, no, no, I'm just passing through. And the whole goal here.

Heather Bradley (27:54.062)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (28:00.054)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Jackie (28:03.865)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (28:10.835)
is to love the Lord, love his people and take as many people with me to heaven as I possibly can when I do finally get home, right? That's the goal. And no one may ever know the name Karen Harmon, right? Karen Harmon is never going to be a household name. But when I stand in front of him, my only goal and my biggest desire is to hear well done, good and faithful servant. That's it. Not well done, good and faithful mom, not well done, good and faithful wife, not.

Heather Bradley (28:16.078)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie (28:28.987)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (28:33.902)
So good.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (28:39.215)
not speaker, not writer, not podcast host, like none of that, right? It is just well done, good and faithful servant. And then we put all those parameters around it in our carnalness, in our earthly mindedness, instead of being kingdom minded. And I think sometimes if we stay kingdom minded, then we don't really ever have to be as frustrated in ministry. And I say that with the utmost kindness. I don't mean that in a mean way.

Heather Bradley (28:44.43)
Yeah.

Jackie (28:47.439)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (28:55.948)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (29:02.006)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (29:05.939)
But I think sometimes we start feeling frustrated that we're not advancing in ministry because we are looking at the wrong thing. And I think we do get caught up in that striving and we think that in that striving there should be the specific outcome. And when that outcome isn't there, the followers aren't there, the speaking engagements aren't there, the book deals aren't there, the advancement isn't there, we think we're not as effective in ministry.

Heather Bradley (29:11.084)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (29:19.02)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (29:25.132)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (29:30.798)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (29:31.217)
And I was like, I'm sorry, who put that definition on ministry? That's not what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't say that's ministry at all, right? It just says to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, to love your neighbor as yourself. It's to be the hands and feet of Jesus. It's to take up our cross and follow him daily, right? It's to lay down our life. It's to live in humility and humbleness, demonstrating the fruits of the spirit, sharing his love with others, but being grounded in absolute truth of the scripture.

Heather Bradley (29:34.798)
Yeah. No, no.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (29:49.014)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (29:56.566)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so good.

Karen Harmon (30:00.019)
And, you know, we've had this conversation to Jackie and we may have to pivot here a little bit because I'm going off on a tangent, but we kind of have this whole like, you know, this whole like, okay, well, yeah, I'm standing for love and truth. But then our truth shifts, right? When it's like, no, we have the truth. And I keep pointing over here because my Bible's over here, but like we have the absolute truth. Like we have it right here. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. It's literally right here. So as we pursue what he has for us,

Jackie (30:00.059)
Yeah.

Jackie (30:06.299)
You

Heather Bradley (30:07.246)
I love it.

Heather Bradley (30:22.382)
Hmm.

Karen Harmon (30:29.619)
being grounded in his word. Now, in the world that we live in, in the culture that we live in, it's not always popular. And Jackie and I have had these conversations behind the scenes. It's cost me, you know, and I won't get into the specifics of that, but it has cost me. It has cost me speaking opportunities. It has cost me, quote unquote, followers and friends or whatever, to stand up for what I know to be the absolute truth of the word of God. And to actually say no to opportunities,

Heather Bradley (30:37.294)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (30:58.131)
then I know that is not what God has called me to. It may be something that God has called someone else to. And these are opportunities people would be like, you're stupid for not saying yes to this. Like, this is like a dream. I would do anything to have this kind of opportunities. And I've had to say no to that because to me, that's not the lane that God has me in. You know, it's someone else's lane and that's amazing. It's someone else's cross, but it's not mine. And when I try to fit into those spaces and places and avenues and things,

Heather Bradley (31:01.164)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (31:07.042)
Yeah.

Jackie (31:11.195)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (31:15.51)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (31:27.379)
for the sake of pursuing earthly success in ministry instead of pursuing kingdom success for eternity. And that to me is where the gauge needs to happen.

Jackie (31:34.939)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (31:38.798)
Yeah, I love that.

Jackie (31:39.195)
I think there is so much peace and joy and like almost like a relaxation that comes on you when you stop trying to force things to happen or think like, like you were talking about how ministry is a lot of times in the trenches and how a lot of times we're focused on like the big platforms, lots of followers, all of the things and.

Heather Bradley (31:46.894)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (31:53.068)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jackie (32:06.715)
I kind of feel like we're redefining ministry a little bit because a lot of times what people think of ministry, they think that you need to be in front of people. You need to be seen, you need to be heard, all these things. But I was actually telling Heather the other day and Karen, you know this about me because we've talked about this when, when we first met and how I always wanted to be on stage and speaking and all these things. But I told Heather the other day, I was like, I've fallen in love with the one -on -ones like,

Heather Bradley (32:12.846)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (32:36.014)
Yeah, that's my fave.

Jackie (32:36.539)
I love, I love like more than anything, I love to get together with people one on one because then you can like get in the trenches with them. And nobody like Heather and I were talking about this the other day, nobody knows that we're doing this except me and the person I'm having coffee with. But the, the impact that that's having is huge. And also it's having a huge impact because

Karen Harmon (32:38.707)
My favorite.

Heather Bradley (32:43.342)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (32:44.091)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (32:46.862)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (32:47.763)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (32:51.054)
Hehehehe

Heather Bradley (32:55.982)
Yeah.

Jackie (33:05.211)
That's where God's asked me to be. And so there's an ease to it because that is who God has put in my life in right now to, to influence. And so like, I'll use myself as an example, there's things that God has shown me that I know that's going to happen in my life and I have not seen it happen yet. And so in my earthlyness, whatever, I could try and strive to make things happen.

Heather Bradley (33:06.99)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (33:15.342)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (33:30.355)
you

Heather Bradley (33:30.606)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (33:34.323)
Right.

Jackie (33:34.427)
But I'm so glad that God has basically sat my butt down and was like, Jackie, sit, like just be with me, say yes to the opportunities that I place in front of you. No matter if people see, no matter if people know because he knows, right. And I've come to a place that I'm also, and I've, I've mentioned this before too. I'm a pastor's kid. And so I have grown up being super involved in church.

Heather Bradley (33:39.15)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (33:44.878)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (33:50.062)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (33:51.091)
That's right. That's right.

Karen Harmon (34:04.595)
Yeah.

Jackie (34:04.635)
And being in the front and, you know, having larger positions in church and, and then since being in the Dallas area, uh, we've, we've pulled back not because we wouldn't love to get involved, but because this has been our season of where God's like, we're gonna, I'm gonna, you're gonna focus on home. Your family's going to be your ministry. Your kids are going to be your ministry. And.

Heather Bradley (34:21.654)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (34:26.798)
Yeah.

Jackie (34:30.811)
He has brought other people outside of the church, in the church, into my life that I've been able to minister to, but it's been on a smaller scale, I guess you could say that I'm used to, but not less powerful, not less influential. It's very much ministry, but...

Heather Bradley (34:42.734)
You

Karen Harmon (34:46.867)
That's right. Right. Right.

Heather Bradley (34:47.054)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (34:51.763)
Right.

Jackie (34:52.923)
It's not like I'm standing on a platform talking to thousands of people, but if I could just have like a million one -on -ones with people, I think I would use that instead.

Heather Bradley (34:53.102)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, ministry looks like a lot of different things sometimes than what you're saying. Like what we defined, I think, you know, we were all kind of talking about this before we started recording is in this, this, you know, even when I was growing up, I don't know that it looked like this. I'm about to be 50 next week. And, you know, it's all about the platform because of social media.

Karen Harmon (35:00.051)
Right, right, right, right.

Karen Harmon (35:08.855)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (35:23.214)
So we've elevated to say this, right? That ministry is something, but you know, ministry is, Jesus walked a lot of times and met the one person, you know, like what you're saying. Um, this year it's been about six months ago. I stepped back in, um, from working in pastoral ministry at my church, which was the dream that God had brought back to me from laying it down years ago. And, but the reason why I bring this up.

Karen Harmon (35:34.163)
Right.

Karen Harmon (35:45.907)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (35:52.558)
is because the ministry that needed to happen in this season right now in my life, and I haven't gone back yet. I still go to church. I'm not saying I didn't stop going to church. I just stopped serving in that capacity is because my mom was sick and I needed to help her. And now we're taking care of my dad and my daughter had a baby. And I had things like that, that the Lord was saying, listen, I'm calling you to do this. I need you to lay this down because this is the ministry.

Karen Harmon (36:15.291)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (36:22.478)
This is ministry, this is being in the trenches, you know, going back to that. This is real life, taking care of people and being in the hands and feet of Jesus. When no one's gonna notice, people thought I was crazy when I stepped back. People questioned me like something must have happened. Oh, something bad. No, no. I know, cause that's the better story, right? No, sorry, just need to do what the Lord is asking me to do right now. And...

Karen Harmon (36:27.771)
Right.

Right. Right.

Karen Harmon (36:38.067)
Right, right, right. It's gotta be something salacious. Yeah. Of course. Right.

Jackie (36:44.827)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (36:49.799)
Exactly.

Heather Bradley (36:50.83)
That's what I did. And I trust full trust him fully that if he wants me to go back, the door will be there. It is there. I can go back, but he hasn't said yet. And so I'm just being obedient in this season. And I haven't had to be overwhelmed, stressed out, burning the candle at both ends. I got to be with my mom when she passed away. I got to be with her during that season. I've been nonstop with the grandbaby, helping my daughter through that. And now my dad needs us.

Karen Harmon (36:59.379)
Exactly. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (37:08.659)
Yes. Right. Right.

Karen Harmon (37:18.929)
That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, and we don't define that as ministry because no one sees it, but it is. And that's the ministry we see in scripture time and time and time again, right? We see the few feeding of the 5 ,000s and we see all of that, but it started out with just a small thing. And you see that in scripture time and time again, it's just small acts of obedience. And again, like as people are listening to this, we're

Heather Bradley (37:20.59)
You see what I'm saying? But this is ministry and we don't want this kind of stuff. You know?

But it is exactly. It is. Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Bradley (37:40.546)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (37:45.324)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (37:47.827)
social media, we're not knocking the digital age, people are called to that and the Lord, yeah exactly like hello, this is what we're doing, exactly. Like there's a purpose for it and I love that the gospel is being spread across in ways that it has never been spread across before and I'm so grateful for that. I think sometimes what we're talking about here though is like not all of us are called to that space and that that is okay and it's okay if you're not called to that space,

Heather Bradley (37:49.114)
No, we're on here. Yeah.

Jackie (37:53.061)
Yeah, exactly.

Heather Bradley (38:01.568)
Amen. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (38:09.934)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie (38:13.179)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (38:17.132)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (38:17.299)
It's okay if those doors keep closing. It's okay if you're not seeing that forward advancement to what you were saying, Jackie. You know, it's okay to your point, Heather, if there's a step back, it's okay. And a lot of times we think that if we don't have that public display of all that God is doing, that it's not effective and it's not valuable for his kingdom.

Heather Bradley (38:20.462)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (38:28.622)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (38:38.252)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (38:42.291)
And he's going, no, thank you. Thank you for having the one -on -ones. Thank you for changing the diapers in the nursery. Thank you for taking care of your parents. Thank you for taking care of your kids. Thank you for making the family unit a priority. Thank you for standing for biblical truth, even if it's cost you followers and it's cost you these deals and speaking engagements. Thank you for being obedient to my voice. Well done, good and faithful servant. And we all go through those step backs and we all go through.

Heather Bradley (38:46.798)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (38:51.278)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (38:58.99)
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Amen. Still good. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (39:11.345)
People ask me all the time, like, how did you get on TV? How did you get to all these speaking platforms? And how did you get to this and that and that? And know Jackie, we've we've talked about this and I'm like, God literally like I did nothing like God literally just opened these doors. And I know people don't want to hear that. But it came from years and years and years of just being in the trenches and just saying yes to serving at church, just saying yes to having coffee with someone, just saying yes to mentoring someone or just being a friend to someone.

Heather Bradley (39:23.66)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Heather Bradley (39:31.372)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Karen Harmon (39:40.787)
It was saying yes to years and years and years of journaling, prayers of frustration of like, I don't fit in anywhere. You know, like I don't even really know. Like I want to be a stay at home mom and I'm homeschooling, but then I also work and I want to do ministry and I want to do this. Like there wasn't really a space for women like me back then, especially here in the South. It was stay at home mom world, working mom world, you know, like there was all these different single women, like everyone had kind of their own little corners.

Heather Bradley (39:41.518)
Yeah.

You

Heather Bradley (39:48.75)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (39:57.55)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (40:07.283)
there wasn't really a merging of things and there wasn't this whole multi -passionate woman out there like what I was doing. And so it was years of journaling where no one saw those journals. That wasn't for content, it wasn't for a message, it wasn't for a social media post, it was just between me and the Lord. And then out of that obedience, he started opening doors that I could have never, ever even tried or even.

Heather Bradley (40:11.95)
Hmm.

Jackie (40:12.539)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (40:19.726)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (40:25.358)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (40:30.99)
Mm.

Karen Harmon (40:33.171)
thought of opening doors that I was like, I'm sorry, do you have the right person? Like, do you need a different Karen Hartman? Let me make sure you have the right person because I don't think I'm the right person for the job. So it's like the Lord. And then since then, he's closed some of those very doors that he threw wide open, you know? And so that's a whole other discussion that we can have to like, oh my goodness, like he threw up open, open all these doors that now feel closed. Wait a minute. So, so what do I do with that?

Heather Bradley (40:37.902)
Yeah.

Ha!

Heather Bradley (40:51.054)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (41:02.899)
And instead of seeing that as a rejection, really learning and growing and seeing it as a redirection. But that's not saying there was a lot of times with the Lord that I had that I was like, man, the insecurity set in, I'm not good enough. I did something wrong. Maybe I'm not called to this. Maybe I don't need to have a voice. Maybe I'm terrible. I hate, you know, like the enemy will come and just attack in ways of like, gosh, all these doors were open, Karen. And now those doors are closed.

Jackie (41:03.163)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (41:24.206)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (41:29.555)
And so then he throats us and then he puts his thumb on us in ways that the enemy is just like having a heyday. Like, okay, look, here's your insecurity. Here's your fear. Here's your loss of hope. Here's your questioning God's plan. Right. So instead of going, okay, that's not a rejection from the Lord. That's not a rejection from man. This is a redirection from God that if I choose to go, okay, I surrender. I surrender in this pivot. I surrender that this door was open five years ago.

Heather Bradley (41:35.726)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (41:49.902)
It's so good.

Karen Harmon (41:58.067)
Now this door is closed. So in the meantime, Father, what do you want me to learn from this? Because ultimately, again, I know that you will bring all of this around for your glory. So let me do what Ephesians five says, right? When it talks about be careful in how you live, not as unwise, but as wise, making the most of every opportunity because the days are evil. So I'm like rejection, redirection, pivot.

Heather Bradley (41:58.22)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (42:09.038)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (42:17.39)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (42:27.111)
Detour whatever we want to call it. I'm gonna make the most of that opportunity for his glory and ultimately for my good as well because he is good and That ultimately is ministry to just live in that obedience to him whether it's a step back like you were talking about Heather whether there's a Redirection like you were talking about Jackie like all of it Ultimately is gonna be for his glory and for our good when we live in a posture of surrender to him

Heather Bradley (42:37.326)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (42:40.854)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (42:49.964)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. So good.

Jackie (42:52.763)
Yeah, that's so good. I was just thinking about how there, as an example of what you were saying, there's been many times where I feel like I'm doing something that seems so good. And then God, like you said, He closes that door. And there can be a little bit of like a shaking kind of in that moment. And it's like, but what I've...

Karen Harmon (43:14.547)
Oh yeah.

Heather Bradley (43:14.734)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (43:18.523)
I've had to learn with that is to like completely let it go because it can be, it can be hard to move forward into the next thing that he has for you if you're still looking back at the good in the past. And I've had to, I've had to realize that it's okay. Like when God asked us to let something go, that was still good. Like the things that he had me doing in the past was good. It's just not what he has for me right now.

Heather Bradley (43:28.748)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (43:29.999)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (43:31.414)
Mm, yeah. So true.

Karen Harmon (43:33.809)
That's good.

Heather Bradley (43:43.02)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Jackie (43:47.035)
And I've had like, I had a vision one time where God was wanting me to walk with him, but I was still holding on to something in my past. And I was, and it's like, he was showing me, you can't move forward into the future with me when you're still holding on to what I've, what I've clearly closed the door to, you need to let it go. Um, but I love how you guys were saying that God brings all of it around for his glory. And it really does take a.

Heather Bradley (43:54.574)
Mm.

Karen Harmon (43:55.475)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (44:02.252)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Heather Bradley (44:13.006)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (44:15.771)
picking up your cross and surrendering and not striving and trusting him. Obviously. Like I asked, I prayed my prayer like four years ago was that God would help my faith and to grow greater, like that I would be able to have greater faith in him. It is, and to be able to trust him more. And I do, I do trust him more, but the path.

Karen Harmon (44:21.971)
That's it. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (44:22.828)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (44:30.446)
Hmm. Hmm.

Karen Harmon (44:32.915)
That's a dangerous prayer, my friend.

Heather Bradley (44:39.598)
She's all, uh...

Jackie (44:44.635)
that took me there was shaking. Like there was this shaking. But it's when I was going through the shaking and through the pivoting and the, you know, identity crisis and doors closing and it seems like no other door is opening except, you know, my home ministry. That was hard, but that is where God met me. And that is where...

Karen Harmon (44:46.083)
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Heather Bradley (44:57.87)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (45:05.806)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (45:11.822)
Mm -hmm.

Jackie (45:14.171)
Like you were talking about Karen, how what you did in the trenches behind the scenes, the journaling, the praying that that prepared you for what God brought you into. And then God opened the doors and that's definitely the season that I have been into. And yeah, my faith in him has grown. I definitely trust him more. And I, I'm sure that like we, we have some 20 year olds that listen to our podcasts too.

Heather Bradley (45:21.164)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (45:24.403)
Right.

Heather Bradley (45:25.166)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (45:41.427)
Uh huh.

Heather Bradley (45:41.486)
you

Jackie (45:42.235)
And I remember when I was in my late teens, in my twenties, even in my early thirties, I thought that if I wasn't, if all the dreams that God had for me were not in full view by the time I was 30, that somehow I missed it and I wasn't doing enough. I wasn't pushing. I wasn't pushing forward enough. I remember mentoring one girl and she was like, I'm 25.

Heather Bradley (45:57.73)
Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (45:59.251)
Right. Absolutely. 30. Yep. Right.

Heather Bradley (46:05.614)
Yeah.

Jackie (46:09.563)
Like, why aren't I, you know, more in the spotlight? And I was like, girl, you're 25. Like, it's okay. Like, you got to be patient. But I don't know why we have these ideas. I don't know where that comes from. But I have been there and I'm 37. I still haven't seen some of that. Like I said, I still haven't seen some of the things happen. But God has done so much. And I have realized that when you just...

Heather Bradley (46:11.084)
Hehehe

Karen Harmon (46:11.145)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (46:20.051)
Yeah.

Jackie (46:38.043)
take a step back in your Holy Spirit led that you will see God move in wonderful ways in your life and even in the behind the scenes places in your own life, in your own family. And there, that to me is, it's worth it for me to do that instead of striving to make these dreams that God has given me happen. I don't want to like try and,

Karen Harmon (46:45.341)
Absolutely.

Heather Bradley (47:01.454)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (47:02.867)
Right? Right.

Heather Bradley (47:03.918)
Yes.

Jackie (47:07.483)
push open doors because that's exhausting. I'd way rather just sit back and work on my patience and let him open the door. Yes.

Karen Harmon (47:10.035)
Yeah.

What he -

Heather Bradley (47:15.406)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (47:15.635)
let him take it because when we look at scripture, we look at scripture and all he asked us was to be diligent. He never asked us to be driven. And I think that's where the mentality change has to be is like, okay, Lord, I want to be diligent with what's in front of me right now. Not so driven, which is I was very, I'm Indian and my culture is very driven type of mentality is how I grew up. Drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, success, success, success.

Heather Bradley (47:22.702)
Mm. Mm, that's true.

Jackie (47:22.747)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (47:27.884)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm.

Jackie (47:33.115)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (47:45.235)
Like that's what was instilled in me and really having to pivot my way of thinking to a no, I just want to be diligent in what you're asking me to do. And I wish somebody had told me that when I was 25 was like, stop trying to push down these doors and make this happen. Just be diligent. What is put in your hands, be diligent to make the most of every opportunity because life as we know from 25, when we look at back when we were all 25 to go, oh my goodness, there's been so much life lived since then.

Heather Bradley (47:51.47)
So good. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (48:05.654)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (48:11.15)
Yeah.

Jackie (48:12.237)
Yes.

Karen Harmon (48:12.435)
But had I not learned to just be diligent with what he had, like I could have been really thrown off course. And the thing is we've all been thrown off course. I mean, Jackie, you know this story, but five years ago I had an unexpected pregnancy at the age of 41. And like it was right around that time where a speak engagements were happening. God was opening up all these doors. I had like 13 speaking engagements lined up that year. Some on really big platforms, some on small. And then all of a sudden I find out I'm pregnant.

Heather Bradley (48:25.87)
Hehehe.

Karen Harmon (48:41.331)
and I have to cancel literally everything. One, I was high risk because I was 41, so I couldn't travel at the end of the second trimester. I ended up being diagnosed with a really rare condition, couldn't walk, was in a ton of pain. Had to cancel all the speaking engagements for the last half of that year. And I'm like, Lord, why would you open all of these doors just to shut them in my face? Like, I don't get it. Like, I literally said yes to these opportunities because I thought you were saying for me to say yes.

Heather Bradley (48:46.574)
No.

Heather Bradley (48:59.628)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (49:09.676)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (49:10.259)
but you knew that I was gonna get pregnant because you're sovereign. So why would you open these doors to shut them in my face? Now I'm really heartbroken. Now, you know, like bad thoughts creep in. You're angry at being pregnant, which is awful. You're angry at God for opening the doors, which isn't great. Like, I mean, there's no like win -win in it, but I am telling you, I look back on that time and I would not say that I would go through it again because I wouldn't, but I look back, just to be honest, but I look back on that time and it literally,

Heather Bradley (49:13.902)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (49:20.59)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Heather Bradley (49:29.102)
haha

Heather Bradley (49:35.054)
Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (49:40.307)
changed the direction of not just my life, but my thoughts, my soul, my, I mean, like changed me for the better. It was almost like now I see an aspect of, of him. I see a characteristic and a side of him that I would have never seen had I not gone through that. So instead of the questioning of why I have shifted that to what so.

Heather Bradley (49:42.478)
Mm.

Jackie (50:01.093)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (50:04.334)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Karen Harmon (50:07.507)
Not why did you do all of this or why did you let all of this happen or why didn't you do whatever. It's more, okay, what do you want me to do with this now? And what can I do to bring you glory through all of this? What do I need a strip of myself to have more of you in this? How do I need to be diligent in where you have me?

Heather Bradley (50:12.654)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (50:17.878)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (50:22.03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (50:32.083)
even though it may not make complete sense. And Jackie, to your point of the trusting, I posted this when I first found out I was pregnant. It's the, I don't know if you've seen it, it's this cartoon depiction of Jesus with a big, huge teddy bear. And he's kneeling down in front of this little kid. And the little kid is holding onto this tiny little teddy bear, you know. And Jesus is kneeling down and he's got one hand and saying, like asking the kid to give.

Jackie (50:35.107)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (50:52.086)
Hmm.

Jackie (50:52.985)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (50:57.939)
him that little teddy bear because he's got this like massive teddy bear behind him that he wants to give this little one. But the little one doesn't want to let go of this tiny bear. And I was thinking of that analogy when you were talking Jackie, because I'm like, that's it. Like he has so much greater and bigger for us, but we hold so tightly to what we think is amazing and good and why. He's like, no, I need you to just release it. I need you to trust me with this because I have so much greater and bigger.

Heather Bradley (50:58.242)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (51:02.254)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (51:09.614)
Yeah.

Jackie (51:11.545)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (51:13.454)
So good.

Jackie (51:19.073)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (51:22.734)
Yes.

Jackie (51:23.193)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Karen Harmon (51:27.251)
things for you if you would just obey, if you would just trust, and if you would just surrender to me. He is so faithful. He's so good. And if we've learned anything through our 30 years, our 40 years, and now almost 50 years, that is what we've learned, that he is good and he does good and he will bring it all around for his glory and our good in the end.

Jackie (51:33.659)
Mm -hmm.

Heather Bradley (51:44.654)
Yeah. Amen. That's perfect.

Jackie (51:48.091)
So good. Yep, love it.

Heather Bradley (51:50.126)
Yeah, that's so good. So good. Well, Karen, I am so excited that you joined us today on our podcast. I've been really looking forward to this and I don't know, I want to come up there now and join you guys for coffee because I feel like I could sit with you all day. I love hearing your enthusiasm. And I mean, you literally actually brought me to tears well ago when you were just speaking so powerfully about hearing the well, you know, well done, good and faithful service. I just.

Karen Harmon (52:02.501)
YES!

Karen Harmon (52:14.995)
Yes.

Heather Bradley (52:15.598)
I don't even know. I just started tearing up. I just was like, God, that is it right there. That is everything. And it was so good. But, um, so I'm, I'm coming up there to hang out with y 'all cause this was fun. And, um, I love just how you ended it with, you know, how the Lord to me, it was just a perfect picture of surrender, how you go from the why to the what. That's the journey going from why to what, and the journey through that is our surrender. And I love that so much. So.

Karen Harmon (52:20.115)
So.

Jackie (52:20.207)
Yeah.

Karen Harmon (52:23.493)
you

Yay!

Karen Harmon (52:35.091)
Yeah.

Jackie (52:42.235)
Yeah.

Heather Bradley (52:43.374)
We'll have to have you back again for sure. I really enjoyed this. So thank you again for coming on and hope everybody enjoyed our podcast today, guys. If you love this episode, we ask you to share it, leave us a review and subscribe. You can find us on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.