Episode 5.17: We missed a week so this one is SUPER SIZED!!!

We missed an episode - lots of "life" happening for Joel and Misty... So we're catching up with this week's episode!

Ever feel like numbers aren’t telling the whole story of your classroom? We dig into a simple but powerful shift: using evidence—not just data—to understand learning and coach for growth. After quick updates from the road and our lives and a lively nod to International Cribbage Day, we welcome John Hayes to unpack how coaches and teachers can collect the kind of classroom evidence that actually changes practice.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review telling us one student behavior you want observers to track next time.

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
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Transcript

Where Have You Been?

SPEAKER_04 0:17

You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach of CPM educational program. Boom.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Joel, it's been a long time since I feel like since we've been.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

Where have you been?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Where have you been?

SPEAKER_05 0:39

Well, I asked you first.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

So we have been, we have been away. Yeah. I think I think if you're paying attention if you're not paying attention, we'll tell you. So I think that last end of last podcast, we said that the day of was going to be like February 3rd. It's not February 3rd, is it? No, we missed February 3rd. In fact, it's February 10th because we got a lot of things going.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

There's a lot of things going on. Which is good.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I mean, I suppose to an extent. Yes. I mean, sometimes I wish there were fewer things going.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

Just I I get that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

I mean not maybe not down to no things going on, but you know, a slightly attenuated number of things going.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

And I guess if things are going on, it matters what you're involved in. Maybe you're involved with a lot of things, maybe you're not involved with a lot of things, but there's always things going on, probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

There pretty much are always things going on. It's just how much you're engaged with. What are some of the things that have been going on for you, Joel?

SPEAKER_05 1:44

So for me, it has been kind of a whirlwind of conferences and teacher support in the classrooms. So I got to go to the Mead Conference, which is in Arizona, and it's a conference that supports every teacher, but it teachers new to their career specifically to keep them in the career of education. So I think that's a really great conference. And then I was at the Utah conference. I'm going to say the acronym because I think what it stands for, but the UCTM. So it's the NCTM version regional. Yes, that's the one. And that was really positive and great. And and then Yeah, and now off to California to support those teachers in San Bernardino. Shout out to them. Yeah. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah. I think the theme is out of the office.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

Yes. I think that is the theme. Running through our conference, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I I similarly. I have I've had several things come come up in being out of the office to California for a week, which, you know, doing some coaching work, also working in San Bernardino. And pre which was preceded by a minor flooding emergency in my house.

SPEAKER_05 3:10

Oh, I heard about that. We were supposed to meet that day. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

And then yeah, it turns out that if you have a clog that is downstream of your sinks, that's Draeno won't draino won't really help it, first of all, because the Draeno just kind of gives it to that little like U part of your sink. Yeah. It doesn't obviously go a lot further. And then if you happen to have upstairs-downstairs bathrooms like I do with my tenant upstairs, and the clog is the sink is clogged, the drain is clogged downstream of where those come together, then when that person showers, the water will just magically like go back to the pipes. I mean the water doesn't care which way it goes, it just goes somewhere, right? Where the it'll come right back out into the other house. So that I have someone basically showering and draining right into my house.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

That was that's not great. That's not great.

SPEAKER_05 4:04

That doesn't sound great. No, no, by any sense.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

That was quite that was not not uh I don't recommend.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Zero stars, do not recommend.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

And then and then I've just been I've been out of office a bit for my father passed away over the break. And so but uh, you know, bereavement leave and various things helping my things. So it's been and then you know, conference coming up very soon. I mean, we when we're when we when you hear this, yes listeners, the conference is a mere ten days away. Oh my gosh. Yeah, which means it's you know, when we're recording, it's 18 days away now.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

So indeed.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah. Shwoo. Shw. I don't want to spell that. S-C-H-W. Yeah. Yeah, so there's a lot of things going on. So yeah, we missed it, we missed a podcast. We uh We did. We uh we're we we were we were unable to prioritize it within our things to get one a guest, because you know, but they have to have a schedule also. They're involved with things, and they're also doing things and out of office and so on. And yeah.

International Cribbage Day Stories

SPEAKER_05 5:14

So but I I will say uh today's guest uh it was just a fun conversation to have. It was and it left me actually wanting to talk more. So good for a little tease for the listeners out there.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I think I think just for our listeners though, because we did record, I believe, we did record our nat our day of for the third. We'll put it at the end of the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 5:36

Yeah, I think we should.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, we'll just it'll just be a little little uh bonus bonus day of for you. Because we don't want that recording to go unused.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

But then we need to we but then we need to talk about what today's day of is. Yes. All right, so you won't get Joel's teaser for it on the outro. You'll just have to pretend that he told you about how we were gonna talk about February 10th day of. Which is which is which is what?

SPEAKER_05 6:04

National cribbage day. Or international cribbage day.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

International cribbage day. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Near and dear to my heart.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

That it Joel, we've never played cribbage.

SPEAKER_05 6:16

Well, how I travel ever in my bag is a cribbage board. So at any moment you could say, Joel, we're playing cribbage, and I would pull that out and we could play some cribbage.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

In your little travel bag, because you don't even check them. I do not check bags, but you have a cribbage bag. I do a cribbage board in there.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Always. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Okay. That's interesting. I'm imagining how big it must be.

SPEAKER_05 6:38

It's very small. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

I have played cribbage without a cribbage board.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

When we when we were traveling, we just kept track of them.

unknown 6:46

So it's pretty easy.

SPEAKER_05 6:48

I know. That I mean it's not quite as fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Pegging's more fun.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

And I've actually used the board to score other types of games.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

Because it's just such a nice way to keep points without having to write them down and add them up.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

How many times in your life have you have you pegged in the wrong direction?

SPEAKER_05 7:10

Um, more than I probably remember, which is probably why I pegged in the wrong direction. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

I I frequently have to uh remind myself which direction I'm going. But uh yeah, so when did you learn to play Kribbage?

SPEAKER_05 7:26

Born in Minnesota, so it was kind of like you don't learn. You came out of the womb. Yes, you're gifted with the knowledge and uh a very young age. Yeah. And then what what's interesting to me now is how I collect the boards because they mean something to my history. Uh like I have a White Bear Lake, Minnesota board about the lake, or I have different I attach them to different uh meaningful trips or something like that. But yeah. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Definitely I I played it since I can remember. I don't remember actually learning ever to play cribbage. I just remember playing it always with my dad, my uncles. It was my dad's family's game. And when I grew up, so this is a thing I this is one of those things where it's like you just you grow up in this kind of context, you think that's what everyone does, right? So when I grew up, if you didn't count your points, the other person took them.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

Yeah, I'm uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

If like if you meet if they miss the points, then you're like so. I was I'm I'm like, I'm like sitting there making sure I got everything, you know, but I did not realize that's not how other people play necessarily.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

No, that's that needs to be clarified at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Well, I just thought that was the rules. I just thought that was the rules, it was the rules and how everybody played it. Like to me, the rules were universal. And when I was playing, I was up the boundary waters with one of my partner's families playing with the nieces and nephews. And when I was playing with them, and nobody had I nobody had said, and you know, and I'd played with my partner, I'm sure, every time he never missed anything. So yeah, yeah. And one of the nieces and nephews, like, you know, missed a 15 or something, and I was like, Oh, I'll take your three points. And they were like, What? And all the other adults were mortified that I would take points from a child. I know it was like you gotta learn. That's how it was in my family. Like my dad, like my grandpa, no, no shame, no, you know, no regret. No, just taking the points does not matter.

SPEAKER_05 9:30

So my daughter, Samantha, they they have lived in fear of me stealing the points.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Oh, yeah, for sure. No, I'm really good at cutting all my points.

SPEAKER_05 9:39

Yeah, and now and now that we're of an age, whatever, Samantha is still will clarify we're not stealing points. Even though Samantha beats me all the time now, it's like you can steal my points, just it's fine. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Yeah, no, that's a that that is an important thing to clarify. But see, I didn't realize there's a thing that you should clarify. You need to. Until I was chided. I mean, I was definitely shamed for taking points from Japan.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

I mean, there's rules about cutting. If you like people try and get you to cut when you're not supposed to, so you can steal their points. There's there's a lot of tomfoolery strategy strategy stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, I played again, my dad's family. I remember playing my grandpa, and it was probably when I was about like 12 or so, and I double skunked him.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And he he never played with me. Actually. It was I was a little bit sad. I didn't gloat or anything. I was just like, oh yeah, yeah, and I was very happy. Yeah. Yeah, he he did not like it.

SPEAKER_05 10:46

No, clearly.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

This last time I played with my grandpa.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

And the risk, the risk of having a repeat kept him maybe from exploring more options.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I think so. So Midwest game, Cribbage.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

I don't know, I've never thought about this.

SPEAKER_05 11:06

I did just because I grew up in the Midwest and we played cribbage, it's probably since it's an international day of, yeah, it's probably played everywhere. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Well, I think of Euchre as more of a Midwest game.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Euchre is a Midwest game. It's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Only ever played it with people from Michigan.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

I was just gonna say, I only play with people from Michigan. That is so true. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

So it's a Michigan game. I think it is a Michigan. Euchre.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Well, Krivitch, that's a fun game. All you need, all you need is a deck of cards. That's all you need. You don't need a special deck of cards. And and and I know a lot of ways to make 15.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

So so how are you gonna celebrate Joe? Sounds like a very obvious question.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

I know. I I probably will play. I am part of a group that we get together once a month and play cribbage. So perhaps I'll contact that group and we'll get together. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

I I think I'm gonna I'm gonna see if I can find my cribbage board first.

SPEAKER_05 12:13

That's a good start.

unknown 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

I mean, I think I s you don't need one, but I know.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Yeah, as I said, we could just keep track with points. Yeah. It's more fun with pegs.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

It is.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Did you used to have like lose the pegs and then you had to use it? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 12:29

And they break the pegs break off so you can't actually use that particular Yes, that's the worst. That's for sure the worst. It happens a lot when children are Oh children. We love 'em. More math for more people.

Shifting From Data To Evidence

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Exactly. And more cribbage. So Jill, what were you saying?

SPEAKER_05 13:08

Well, we were just kind of talking about what we might talk about today. Exactly. And so often we use that phrase of collecting data, using data to support your pedagogy and to support ideas around student learning and things like that, and how to effectively use how effective is it to use and how do you collect it? What do you use? Is it formal? Is it informal? And I was trying to Misty and I were talking and trying to make sense of what that is, and we had some different ideas of what gathering data, student data, actually is. And then we thought we should, well, we should invite John Hayes on the podcast because he's done some work around this.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

So Misty and Misty and I had this conversation when we were building the coaching model about the word data. And so uh I think what we came up with is the this idea that maybe coaches aren't collecting data. Maybe, maybe data is is reserved for those things like progress monitoring and those types of things. But maybe we're collecting evidence, evidence of the coach, of it of coaching and what's happening in the classroom. So we kind of just we separated those two words, and I think we tried to use the word evidence in the coaching book for the most part.

SPEAKER_05 14:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Did we use so I okay, I'm gonna push on that a little bit. Did we use the word evidence to try to distinguish it from data? Or to try this is gonna sound like saying the same thing, but like, or to try to say that some that it is something different, right? Are we trying to like make the word data sound nicer?

SPEAKER_03 14:50

For me, I'm talking about two different things when I'm usually in a district because that word data is reserved for the types of tests and assessments that they're giving to record where where students are with particular standards. So and the word data wall and all of those things. So I usually reserve it to evidence, so that's what I'm there for.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Okay. Got it.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

And so so like what kind of evidence? So you you explained just there about data is those test scores, those things like that. What what is evidence? Um the definition of evidence.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

That could be a gazillion things. I was just during Shawnee mission yesterday, and it was uh and we talked about walking into a classroom and what are you looking for when you go into a classroom? Because I was working with leaders at the time. And there was there was lots of things that we could have been looking for. We could have been looking for evidence of what's happening on the implementation progress tool. We could have been looking for evidence of the standards for math practice. We could have been looking in in this case, I wanted them to know that we're talking about assessment capable learners, and there's six attributes to assessment capable learners. And if we want to know if that is happening in the classroom, we have to be actively seeking evidence of whether or not those attributes are, you know, exist.

What Counts As Classroom Evidence

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I feel like when I think about the difference between evidence and data or data. In this in this idea data pushes us more toward it always it always feels like it pushes us toward quantitative things. Right? Like what percentage of my kids have mastered as X or whatever, right? Like there's a it's a very new number-based kind of idea, and evidence can be more it it'll I feel like it more easily opens up to the idea of qualitative data, of like, oh, I saw students asking each other, or I saw this conversation happening, or whatever. It can be observations that could also be quantified, of course, but we don't have to quantify them when we talk about it as evidence.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

I like that. So either of you? I what I think of my task as when I'm in a classroom is that the there's too much going on for a teacher to collect evidence about what's happening in their classroom. There's too much for them to notice. And so if I just, you know, put myself in a position where I get to notice it and then report back, here's the things that I notice. All of all of those things are evidence, be it, you know, good or bad in the eyes of the teacher. All of those things that I notice, um, the the purpose for me writing them down is to generate a conversation. So I'm, you know, if if I'm if I'm collecting evidence and I don't think it's going to be a meaningful conversation, then that evidence is not necessarily useful.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

It's still evidence, it's just maybe not doesn't meet the same motive or if students, let's say students are up at the whiteboard and I could say, oh, well, their whiteboards were really organized well. Well, if that particular evidence is not a very rich conversation to start, right? Like how did you get your students to organize it so well? I don't I don't know if that's a rich conversation or not. So that's where that's where my mindset is, just thinking about what uh what can I say or what can I write or what can I record that uh is going to uh enable me to ask more questions and and enable the teacher to explain their practice.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

So it's a it's interesting to hear that too, because I I agree with you. There's so much happening in a classroom that a teacher is taking care of. So collecting that evidence, you're the somebody else is in the room collecting that evidence for them. That's not always the case. You don't always have somebody in the room. So that makes it diff. What do you do you have any thoughts around that? Like what a teacher does.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

You could ask other people to support you in the classroom. I mean, if I I like the idea if if an administrator comes into my classroom and I don't know what they're going to observe in my classroom, why don't I just give them a job? Why don't I tell them what my my practice goals are for students? And then I say, hey, can you watch out for this? Because I I need to see evidence that this is happening or not happening. Or, you know, it could it could be another teacher. I I do work with a co-teaching pair, and they have their students collect evidence about each other. So what kind of conversations, what kind of questions are you hearing? And that so I'm enlisting others basically to collect evidence for me.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah.

Enlisting Admin And Peers To Observe

SPEAKER_02 20:12

You're saying like an admin comes in the room and I and then asking them to look for whatever, right, that is gonna be helpful because that that like does a couple of things. One uh often I hear teachers saying that they get frustrated when admin come into their room, particularly in a CPM classroom, they don't they don't know, they're not used to looking for the kinds of things that might be happening in a CPM classroom. And many ad admin are not math people, right? They're not math instructors, let's say. And so there's this kind of the double bind of like they're getting, you know, those teachers might be getting feedback from their admin that doesn't feel useful then because it's not aligned with the kinds of things they're trying to do in their classroom. So taking that initiative and that like ownership or, you know, advocating for yourself to say, hey, this is one of the things I'm working on. Could you give me some, you know, look for this in the classroom and give me feedback around that? I think is really I really like that.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

You know, we pride ourselves on having student-centered classrooms in CPM. You know, that's not always the case. But it's it's not always completely student-centered. And there are effective practices that are that are not student-centered practices, like such as lecturing, that it is an effective practice. It's just not something we want to do all the time. But I think that evidence is if it's collected solely about the teacher. Okay. Then I which is often the case if I have um a leader visiting my classroom, I'm cle they they might collect evidence about the teacher. That does not inform me if that teacher's practice is actually having the desired outcome on the student. So I I realize that there There are things such as maybe a circulation path, things that we have to collect about teachers. But for the most part, if we think about it as what are the students doing? And does that align with the goal that I have, then then that supports the teacher into making better instructional decisions overall.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, I always think that's an interesting point of like looking at what the students are doing, right? Collecting of enthrones, what the students are doing. And it always kind of comes back to then what is the teacher doing, right? Like the teacher actions, right? Like still create the environment for create the situation, respond to, you know, whatever it is to what the students are doing. And yeah, it's I think it's interesting. It's an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

I think the word is empowering, right? I you when you see that connection between the teacher is taking this action and here's the student evidence that occurred as a result, that empowers the teacher that that what they're doing is impactful on the students. And I, you know, we we pride ourselves on getting teachers to take instructional risks, but not all of our risks are they don't all work out, right? So if we take a hundred risks and five work out and we say, oh, those are those are great risks, those actually had this impact. It's definitely going to be useful if somebody measured what was happening to the students rather than just the teacher taking a risk, right?

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Yeah, I and I'm wondering too that my um back to the question of how do we let data guide us or how do we let evidence guide us? So now I have the evidence. What as a teacher, what am I doing with that? Like how how am I using that information to guide me?

Focus On Student Actions And Impact

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Well, first, I think we are in unique positions as professional learning specialists that we're the we're the more knowledgeable other. So we can we can often infer, we've collected this evidence. The student asked a question and they said, Why did you do it that way? So to me, I'm going to ask that teacher, what do you think about that question? Because I think that's a that's a high-leverage question. When it when a student asks, why did you do it that way? That tells me, that tells me loads about that classroom. It tells me that the student is invested in their learning, they're they're curious about how others are thinking, they're critiquing that reasoning. All of those practices are happening just with that one little why question. And so once once I've, you know, once we've shown the evidence that that that practice has actually happened, that student is asking a why question, the next step is how can we get more of that? How could how can we get more of our students to ask why questions? How can we encourage that behavior? Because that's a that's a practice that's going to benefit that student for as long as they're lifelong learners. Why did you do it that way?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That's that's a very curiosity-based question. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Well, that's always such an interesting question of like, to me, it's that question of like, how did you get to hear? Right. And not and not the the student asking that question, me asking the teacher how they got to there in the classroom, right? Like, how did you get the classroom to hear? Or how did how did that student get to that place where they're be able, they feel safe to ask that question, they feel empowered to ask that question, they feel curious, you know, they have that curiosity to begin with, right? And some of that's the student, and some of that's the teacher, right? Like they're like students have their own, you know, personalities and quirks and various things, and then the environment within which we put them, or that they develop, right, or that is around them, that that will bring forth different parts of what they're expressing. It's making sense.

SPEAKER_05 26:18

Yeah. Yeah. And it makes me think about, you know, a catchphrase, my last class is way better than my first class. I'm collecting evidence in that first class, making adjustments. Totally different group of students. I don't know what that behavior is going to be, but I'm making adjustments.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Yeah, not all the same things don't work in the same in different classes, right? And I think, Misty, that question is so important. How'd you do that? You know, like, because it allows that teacher to tell you the story of this system that they'd probably been building for a long period of time. And all the little steps that they took on the way, both the missteps and the, you know, the the growth steps, they can share that with you when you say, How'd you do that? How'd you get that to happen in your classroom?

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah. Well, and it also be interesting to me because it'll be interesting to me where they put the locus of control in that. Like, was it something that they did, or was it like because I imagine there will be teachers who'll be like, Well, I don't know, that's just that student. I'm like, no, you did some things. Right. Like, yeah. Like it's it's it's a it's a it's a co-created space, right? Whether whether we want it to be co-created, whether teachers want it to be co-created or not, it is a co-created space in the classroom, right? So thinking about how and what that teacher did, whether intentional or not, right? And sometimes I think teachers they're not aware of the things that they're doing that are actually opening those spaces. Because they just they do them.

Turning Evidence Into Better Decisions

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Yeah, and I think whatever, right? Uh you know, Victoria Holt and I do a session called Cover Your Assets. We'll do it at this next conference also. But it it is about recognizing what your student assets are. And so the the barrier to recognizing what our student assets often are is the language. Like, what do we what do we call that thing that that kid is uh you know volunteers or raises their hand a lot? Or do what do we call that when a student asks another student a question? So what we try to do in that session is to kind of iron out here's some possible ways that you could talk about assets. So for example, I can use the math practices and I can say, oh, well, this student um has an asset of critiquing the reasoning of others. Okay. And as an evidence collector, I can show that student, I can say, I can record their conversations, I can say, look, listen, what do you think is going on here, you know, with that teacher? And that teacher might say, oh, they're critiquing the reasoning of others. And then I can, I can say, okay, how can we get everybody to do that? Because we don't want to just say this, that's that student's asset. We want that asset to be for everybody, right? But uh with the by using the language of the math practices, we've made it um something that's attainable then, like something that we can shoot for for all students. And there's only eight of them. Like there's only eight math practices, so we can we can kind of say, oh, well, I have 10 students that are good at critiquing the reasoning of others, but I also have uh 15 students that are really, really good at perseverance. And that's something that I'd like to encourage all of my students to have. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Well, and then that strikes me as what an interesting piece of evidence and feedback to give to students themselves. Yeah. You know, like, oh, what are what of what of these assets are you do you feel you're good at, right? Helping them understand the language, helping them understand those pieces. Because it like putting language onto it makes it feel different. It feels identified as a thing instead of just this like amorphous, you know, whatever that's happening. People and then identify it with it as well.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Setting up a language so that they can explore their math identity, right? So they're they're literally saying, you know, like here's the SMPs, those are eight things I could be good at if I chose to be, and maybe I need to grow in some of them, maybe I'm really good at others, but it sets up their math identity, and that's language that they can use forever. Like, like part of my math identity is I'm good at critiquing the reasoning of others, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Like that's something they can use forever, and then that's gonna develop agency, of course. And and applies outside of math classrooms.

SPEAKER_05 30:48

I was gonna say it. I was thinking the same thing, but then also math taught me to be this way in the world.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

You know, like it works both ways. Yeah. I mean, kids bring that in from other areas of their lives and also can apply it to the areas of their lives. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 31:05

So what I'm hearing then is so this idea of collecting data, turned to collecting evidence, which it it feels informal in some ways, right? Like it feels or not informal. There's a strategy of looking for for things, but uh maybe focusing on one or two things because there's so many avenues that you could choose from to focus on. So I I get there's not like one one way to collect data and use it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

I think the part that feels in that I think when you say informal, this is what I think of. I feel like the part that feels informal is the qualitative part of it.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Right? Because it's like, oh, I'm making I'm making notes or I'm you know scribing or I'm you know keeping I might keep tally marks, but like that, it doesn't get into the like again. I feel like data sort of implicitly implies qualit quantitative information and evidence can include that, but broadens the idea.

SPEAKER_05 32:17

So then how do you connect the two? Or do you? You said you separated the two when you took when you did the coaching book. Do they ever connect the thing?

SPEAKER_03 32:27

I think I don't know if separate is the right word. We were just looking for what is the best language.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah. Differentiate is different than separate.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Yeah, I I still firmly believe that evidence for my part, like in my position, is to generate conversations. Like, how can I generate conversations? How can I get the teacher, teacher to notice something and then talk about it with me because I'm interested, like I'm curious about that practice, be it good or bad. So that's what I think of as evidence. Whereas I data to me often feels like I'm it's an evaluation of where students are for the most part. And then what are the next steps once we've done that evaluation? Like, where do we need to kind of shore up conversations and or shore up learning or whatever? So that's that's the difference to me. And I think there's a there's a place, like you can certainly look at data and generate conversations, but often those conversations are not holistic. They're often about a specific student and that learning path of that student. Whereas evidence, and I guess maybe in my practice, I'm more focused on student practice, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Right.

Naming Student Assets With SMPs

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I think I think it's really interesting that we like we were like, okay, we're gonna get we're gonna bring John on and we're gonna talk about data. And John's like, no, we're gonna talk about evidence. So always great to have you on the panel. Absolutely. Always a great conversation. Thank you. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 34:23

Okay. Bye. See you see you soon.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Here is our day of that got missed for January twenty-seventh. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

Oh, intro music.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Indeed. Well, intro fanfare, at least. It is January 27th.

SPEAKER_05 35:23

It is.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

And what is the day of today?

SPEAKER_05 35:27

National Geographic Day.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Oh, okay. National Geographic, not National Geographic Day. Like so where do you put the how do you connect the adjectives?

SPEAKER_05 35:38

Yeah, that's true. Because it would you say National National Geographic Day?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

If it is, it might be International National Geographic Day. Is there such a thing? I don't I don't who knows? I don't know either. Well, it's national so it's National Geographic Day, like National Geographic the Magazine. Correct. Slash Society.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 36:01

Pays homage to the it's been running for over a hundred years.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Homage. Homage. Homage. Cool. Yeah. Did you have old National Geographics in your house when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Yes. Yeah, we did too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

They were like melly, musty, they didn't start in the basement, you know, but like, no, we can't throw these away. There's National Geographic magazines.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Boxes of them.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Boxes and boxes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

They're yellow bindings. Very good.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

I th I think my grandparents might have even kind of had them on a shelf, like organized by date deep, you know. So it was very chronologically easy to find.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Did they get away after you looked through them?

SPEAKER_05 36:41

Not if I did.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

Yeah. Maybe. Maybe they would go through after and and fix it. They never told me that they had to fix anything.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

But they reorganized and your their National Geographic Library. Yes. Yeah. I remember we had a National Geographic. My dad was really big on like uh some subscriptions and things to things like that. Like we got National Geographic. And then we also got like this is random, but we got the Time Life books. Do you remember those? Yeah. Like there were ones on the artists and ones on history. Like we got all these different ones. Like we get them in a series. Like you could, like, oh great, we've signed up for the one about the Western Cowboys or something. I remember we got that. And then we would get you know, every month we get another one or something, and they'd come and we were always very excited. My dad was really cool that way.

SPEAKER_05 37:32

Yeah. So that in school, like they'd send home a flyer or like a fill a fill out form, and you could select up to three or something. Subscriptions. Well, subscriptions, so like it could be like a time life, it could be a national geographic, it could be sports, it could be whatever. I always liked that.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Yeah. Yeah, we I remember the ads on TV for them and stuff, but we got a whole bunch of different ones. Had them for most of my life. And uh, but anyway, the National Geographic, it was so cool because I always looking through all the pictures in it. And then sometimes I would read some of the article. I remember I learned I learned about the concept of plagiarism from a National Geographic article.

SPEAKER_05 38:14

Because they plagiarized?

SPEAKER_02 38:16

No, because I wrote an essay for a class about prairie dogs. And I may have did not realize that you weren't supposed to just write down what the other person said into your essay. So when my dad read it through for me, he was like, Yeah, you can't just write down what they said. Like I was probably like in third grade, right? So it was a timely lesson, and I was like appalled. I was like, oh no, I didn't do it right. So but I learned that you know, you'd have to put it in your own words, which is hard when you've already read the words that are like say it really well. Somebody did it really. You know, they had editors and all kinds of people who made it say it just perfectly.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

But yeah, it was about prayer. Well, they put a lot of work into it. We should honor that work.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah. But uh, you know, when you're eight, apparently you're supposed to figure out how to say it in an eight-year-old way.

SPEAKER_05 39:09

Oh.

unknown 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:10

And but what if you're eight and you actually speak in a ten-year-old way?

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Well, you can say it in a ten-year-old way.

SPEAKER_05 39:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

But you shouldn't say it in the National Geographic exact words. Gotcha. Or you should put quotation marks around it, but you can't make an entire essay of quotation marks. That's also what it's like.

SPEAKER_05 39:25

Yeah. It actually says in here when the magazine was born, when the kids thing started, and when Misty plagiarized. Those are on the timeline.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

On their timeline? That's pretty amazing. Famous plagiarizer of National Geographic.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

Wow. Canary dogs. That's pretty crazy. Well, yeah. I have five facts that National Geographic has taught us. Do you want to hear about them?

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Five facts that National Geographic has taught us? Sure.

SPEAKER_05 39:57

The first one is about the bird chameleons.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Bird chameleons?

SPEAKER_05 40:02

Uh-huh. So yellow canaries turn orange or red if you feed them red peppers.

Evidence, Identity, And Agency

SPEAKER_02 40:09

We learned that from National Geographic?

SPEAKER_05 40:11

It's a fun fact from National Geographic.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Okay. Great. Did you know that ahead of time? Did you know about the?

SPEAKER_05 40:17

I did not know that the yellow canaries changed color depending on what peppers you so really I should have titled if I was going to plagiarize as you did, I could say fun facts I'm teaching you.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Exactly. Because that was like I mean, I didn't know that National Geographic told us. The us is was not as specific in this case.

SPEAKER_05 40:38

Um beautiful seas can be dangerous. So a cross sea phenomenon is beautiful when you see it from above, but it's dangerous to be in. I don't know what a cross sea is.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

I guess cross tides, like is it making like like a a single cross, not like a cross.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

A cross like an angry, it's like it's upset. It's crossed. It's feeling very crossed. Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Okay. Orchids.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

I'm gonna have to look up that one some more. Cross C writing it down. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:11

Orchids are the devil.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Orchids are the devil. Wow. So it's I think I think this is all these titles sound like clickbait.

SPEAKER_05 41:18

Maybe. Well, you're writing them down to look up. So a certain type of orchid in Columbia resembles the devil's face, complete with horns and red eyes. Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

There's so much embedded information in that. Okay. Okay. Great. Okay. There's an orchid that looks like the devil. Got it.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

There is a colorless rainbow.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

A color what? A colorless rainbow. Okay. So what the heck is that?

SPEAKER_05 41:48

A rare white rainbow called the fog bow appears when there is fog instead of rain in the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

But how do we know it's a rainbow?

SPEAKER_05 41:59

Well, it's it's a fog bow.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

But is it just the the light reflecting in the fog and it's what a rainbow is when there's rain, right?

SPEAKER_05 42:08

And then the light hits the water.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Right, but the rain, but then it makes the prism, that's the whole reason. It diffracts refracts through the water. Yeah, I'm gonna have to look that one up.

SPEAKER_05 42:19

I have some dispute around that one. I knew you what. Okay. This is gonna be This is the best fact, yeah. This is a good fact. A National Geographic has taught us. Avocados are not for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 42:39

I did just I just snarted out the podcast. While they are very popular amongst humans, avocados can be toxic for cows, horses, cats, and birds.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

I don't think dogs are supposed to eat avocados.

SPEAKER_05 42:53

And then it says etc.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Etc.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

So I'm pretty sure dogs.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Okay, avocados are not for everyone. Okay, I I did kind of know that one. Of all these fun facts, that one was one I could have said yes. Do kind of and we oh my goodness crazy.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

We love National Geographic Day because it reorganizes years of effort. I'm sorry. It recognizes years of effort that makes more sense.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

It reorganizes years of effort to understand what that means.

SPEAKER_05 43:33

You better write that down to look that one up, too. It encourages education. And it encourages us to admire the world.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Indeed. It has, and it's full of really cool pictures. Like it's I think that that's the piece that's always so interesting to me.

SPEAKER_05 43:51

Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

It has really good pictures for sure.

SPEAKER_05 43:54

What's isn't there a movie with Ben Stiller about National Geographic and he's fine. He's trying to f find his way through life and the meaning, and then Sean Penn is he goes to find Sean Penn so he can show him this picture or learn how to take this picture of the snow leopard.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

It was a good movie.

SPEAKER_05 44:14

You should write it down and look it up.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Okay, I'm ready to get down to look at it. Sean Penn, Ben Stiller, National Geographic.

SPEAKER_05 44:22

I remember it being good. But how to celebrate admiring the photos is one of the ways that you can celebrate. Perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

We used to use our national I mean National Geographics were really good for like making collages if you were allowed to cut them up.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

Well, if you got a double copy, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

I mean anymore. I'm not a I'm not a magazine saver anymore.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

I remember that being a big activity in school, cutting up magazines and newspapers and stuff. I wonder if for folks don't do that anymore, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Well you can do it when you're making like vision boards and collages and things like that, but I always find it frustrating because I'm like spending all my time looking for one particular image. Depends on what kind of magazines you have. Well, what are you gonna do to celebrate in actuality?

SPEAKER_05 45:08

I'm gonna find the name of that movie and try and do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

How about you?

Wrapping The Coaching Framework

SPEAKER_02 45:15

I don't know. I think that like I might go look online. I bet the National Geographic has some of their pictures and things online now.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

I bet they do. That's a good idea. Unprinted ones. That was a callback. Yeah. Okay. Alright, well have a great day. Okay, you too.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H and can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?

SPEAKER_05 46:06

It'll be March 3rd, talk in third person day. And Joel will really investigate what that means to talk in third person, because Joel loves to talk about stories, Joel loves to talk about ideas. Joel likes to hear what Misty has to say about those stories and ideas. And so Joel is gonna share some things about talking in the third person. Joel used to like to watch Seinfeld, and he always remembers George talking about himself in the third portion. Third person, getting upset, things like that. So I think it'll be a fun day. Joel's looking forward to seeing you on March the 3rd. See you then.