Episode 6.3: Pink Flaming-Os and Jumbo-Sized Convo with Peter Liljedahl

Pink Flamingo Day kicks things off with a surprising bit of natural history, then we make a sharp turn into the question that matters for every math teacher: what actually gets students thinking. We sit down with Peter Liljedahl, author of Building Thinking Classrooms, for a practical conversation that goes past the headlines and into the moves that make the work real in K-12 classrooms. 

If you want better math tasks, stronger lesson launches, clearer closings, and a more realistic picture of how Building Thinking Classrooms lives day to day, press play. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review so more teachers can find the conversation.

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
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Transcript

Pink Flamingo Day Warmup

Joel 0:17

Listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach of CPM Educational Program. Boom

Misty 0:31

All right. Is it the, is it the dog days of summer yet? I don't think it's the dog days of summer. Did we have this conversation before about what it is, maybe the dog days of summer? I don't remember. Anyway, maybe the boys of summer. Who knows? It, it is, it is the middle,

Joel 0:48

middle of the summer

Misty 0:49

Well, it's not really the middle of the summer.

Joel 0:51

Just kinda, well, it's the, it's the start of the summer actually. Yeah.

Misty 0:56

it barely started,

Joel 0:57

It's the solstice couple days

Misty 0:59

past the solstice, yes. All right, so it's June 23rd, and what is the day today?

Joel 1:05

It is Pink Flamingo Day

Misty 1:09

Pink Flamingo

Joel 1:10

It is

Misty 1:11

Do you know why pink flamingos are pink?

Joel 1:13

'Cause they eat the shrimps

Misty 1:15

'Cause they do. If they don't eat the shrimps, they're not pink. They just stay white

Joel 1:19

There's a, there's a flamingo that escaped from the aviary just down the road here, and he flew to the salt lake, and he lived in the salt lake for many, many years. And the reason he could do that is 'cause of all the brine shrimp in the salt lake

Misty 1:33

Yeah. Did he, did he stay

Joel 1:35

He stayed pink

Misty 1:36

Oh, wow. I'm amazing that, that he, that he can actually survive near the Salt

Why Flamingos Are Pink

Joel 1:40

Yeah

Misty 1:41

That's pretty salty. so Do you know, like, flamingos eat by turning their head upside down?

Joel 1:46

I did not know that

Misty 1:47

they turn their head upside down and then, then they filter feed, but their, but their, but their beak is constructed in such a way that they, like, scoop and filter upside down

Joel 1:57

So is it, is it like a mesh? The beak is like a mesh, or it has

Misty 2:01

No, I mean, they're filter-- Yeah, they're, they're filter feed 'cause like they, that comes out of their, I don't know, their nostrils kind of. I don't, whatever, like the holes in the top of their beak are, which are not actually their nostrils. But they have like holes in the top of their beak that that's where the water comes out. But they like scoop up kind of in the water, in the muck where the things are that they eat, and they like upside down, and then they like filter the water out and eat them.

Joel 2:22

Now this sounds a little bit like the pat your belly and rub your head at the same time or vice versa. Stand on one leg and eat like a fl- yeah.

Misty 2:31

upside down. Yeah,

Joel 2:33

be the same

Misty 2:34

But you gotta stand on one leg with the, like, the figure four, kinda like the flamingos do. You can't just stand on one leg. Yeah. Have you seen, I mean, other than, I guess maybe you saw the one in Salt Lake City in the Great Salt Lake, but have you seen other flamingos in the wild? Like,

Joel 2:49

Not in

Misty 2:49

actually wild flamingos, not ones that escaped from the zoo

Joel 2:53

I have not seen in the wild o- other than on TV.

Misty 2:57

I see. I, we saw flamingos. That was one of the cool things we saw when we went to South America.

Joel 3:04

Okay.

Misty 3:05

flock of flamingos. They're not really as bright pink as I expected. Like, these ones were kinda like, well, pinkish

Joel 3:12

Well, there are different species

Misty 3:14

That would make sense

Joel 3:17

So you probably saw a different species

Misty 3:19

Maybe. They have black tips on their wings. They fly pretty good. Pretty well.

Joel 3:26

Interesting.

Misty 3:27

facts about flamingos do you

Joel 3:28

what I was just, I was just looking. They, we know why they turn pink from their food. I wonder if that means then if they ate like blue food, if they would turn blue

Misty 3:38

Hmm. Indeterminate. But if they stop eating the shrimp, they will turn back to white.

Joel 3:43

White. Seems like that's the

Misty 3:45

bird

Joel 3:46

Yeah. Yep. They, uh, they live in flocks. They're monogamous. They, They're tall

Misty 3:56

relatively speaking.

Joel 3:59

And

Misty 3:59

tall do flamingos get?

Joel 4:01

it says four to five feet tall. Oh.

Misty 4:05

Oh, wow, that's taller than I expected even.

Joel 4:08

Taller than when they were invented even. I'm just kidding. They weren't invented.

Misty 4:11

well, then when they were born. Baby flamingos must be so cute.

Joel 4:18

I bet they, uh... I wonder if they come out like flamingos, like, you know.

Misty 4:22

I mean, I wonder if they come out like flamingos

Joel 4:25

like even humans, babies don't necessarily look like the human,

Misty 4:30

so they're birds, so they come out looking like white and gray and fuzzy. I'm looking at some baby flamingo images here. They, they do kinda have like longish legs. They do, you know, they kinda look that long. And they're gray. They're like, you know, goslings or something where they're just gray

Joel 4:51

Okay.

Lawn Flamingos And Backyard Culture

Joel 4:52

Well, this day in particular isn't about actual flamingos other than it's about the lawn ornament flamingo,

Misty 4:59

The bla--

Joel 5:00

of which the of which they were

Misty 5:02

did have it in Ve--

Joel 5:03

Yeah. They, they were designed in the theory of the real flamingo.

Misty 5:08

Uh-huh When were they invented?

Joel 5:12

Any guesses? I can, I can guess. I can guess.

Misty 5:16

Well, you have

Joel 5:17

I have the answer.

Misty 5:18

so your guess better be spot on. Uh, I'm gonna say they probably came sometime in the, like, '40s,

Joel 5:24

Oh, pretty close. 1957

Misty 5:28

Oh, see, the '50s. I was thinking the '50s, but I was like, "Nah, it was probably before that."

Joel 5:32

And, and a person named Don Featherstone invented the, the lawn ornament pink flamingo.

Misty 5:39

Interesting.

Joel 5:40

Yeah. And it's,

Misty 5:42

Did he pat-- Like, did he patent it and then sell them, or he just became popular selling them? I mean, like, how do you, like, become the person who was like, "Uh, I made these pink flamingos"?

Joel 5:51

I think he just was doing it. It says he was doing it at work. He worked for a company called Union Products,

Misty 5:57

Oh,

Joel 5:57

and he just Started making 'em

Misty 6:02

that will like pink flamingo your yard?

Joel 6:04

Oh, really?

Misty 6:05

Like, it's kinda like a gag thing, I think, where like you could like order it and they'll like put pink flamingos in people's yards and then like the whole, like a whole flock of them.

Joel 6:18

Huh.

Misty 6:18

like 20 pink flamingos. I don't know why. I don't know if it was like a charity thing or

Joel 6:26

Maybe

Misty 6:30

Okay. Well, that's not very... Whoa. Okay.

Joel 6:33

What do you see?

Misty 6:34

Uh, so I was just, I was just-- And it said, "What is a baby flamingo called?" And I was like, "Oh, what are baby flamingos called?" Well, they're officially called chicks. That's not very exciting.

Joel 6:45

thought you were gonna say something totally different

Misty 6:48

it says, "You can also hear them adorably referred to as flaminglets."

Joel 6:53

Oh, see, I-- that's what I thought you were gonna say.

Misty 6:55

flaminglets

Joel 6:57

That's way better

Misty 6:59

I think that it's funny that flamingos and flaming O's are spelled the same way.

Joel 7:03

Mm-hmm.

Misty 7:06

But they're not flaming. All right, what else do we need to know about pink flamingos?

Joel 7:09

You can get them, put them in your gardens, your homes. It's supposed to just be a playful rebellion against traditional decor

Misty 7:17

Oh, all right. I think there you go. Well, so what are you gonna-- Are you gonna get a pink flamingo today, Joel?

Joel 7:23

I have one. So I'm gonna go ahead

Misty 7:26

of course you do.

Joel 7:27

and, and spend some time with him today.

Misty 7:30

Was he outside in your yard? Oh, nice. Great. Well, you, you could, uh, post a picture somewhere.

Joel 7:36

Sounds good. I'd do that. How about you?

Misty 7:39

Uh, I just learned a bunch of things about baby flamingos, so that's what I did.

Joel 7:45

Okay.

Misty 7:46

There you go.

Joel 7:47

Excellent.

Misty 7:48

Great. Bye,

Joel 7:50

See ya

Meet Peter Liljedahl

Misty 8:06

So next up we have a conversation with Peter Liljedahl. Peter Liljedahl deserves a really tremendous introduction and also is probably a person who needs very little introduction anymore. He is the author and researcher behind Building Thinking Classrooms and, uh, all the world that Building Thinking Classrooms has become. And he is dynamic. He is a world traveler. He's quite an amazing person. This is the third time we've had Peter on the podcast, uh, so you could go back and listen to our other episodes from 2024 and I think 2022, they're probably things you already know if you know anything about Building Thinking Classrooms. So enjoy. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with this and I'm gonna say we're here with Peter Liljedahl, which is always so exciting to me. I always love talking with you, Peter.

Joel 9:01

Absolutely

Peter L 9:02

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I enjoy these conversations as well

Misty 9:05

Yeah. Well, good. I was, I was telling Joel earlier, like, well, you're one of our, like, easiest interview people 'cause we can just ask you, like, three questions and you'll talk for, like, 45 minutes, which is awesome. It is awesome.

Peter L 9:16

Yes.

Misty 9:17

We, we appreciate that. That, uh, that is not, like, a tongue in cheek,

Joel 9:20

a good, that's a good

Peter L 9:21

no, I know.

Misty 9:22

at all

Peter L 9:23

yeah, I'm, I have long answers

Misty 9:25

Well, I, they're thorough and detailed answers, and I appreciate that. So, so welcome again. This, I think this is the third time we've had you on More Math for More

Peter L 9:34

Yeah, I think so

Misty 9:36

we're pretty excited about that. And you said you just got back into Vancouver, back home, which,

Joel 9:44

where were you traveling?

Peter L 9:45

I've been, uh, we've been h- we've been-- technically we've been home for about a week. We just finished an eight-week tour of Europe

Misty 9:52

Oh,

Peter L 9:53

and then we've been home for a week, but we spent we spent a few days in Whistler 'cause my son's birthday was... He lives up there and that was his birthday. And for those of you who don't know, that's a massive resort about two hours sort of northwest of Vancouver. And then we just spent the weekend in Napa with some friends, so that was nice

Misty 10:14

Yeah, I think last time we talked to you, you were, like, in Denmark or something.

Peter L 10:18

Yeah.

Misty 10:18

about a year and a

Peter L 10:19

That, yes, that's pretty common for me to be over-- I'm usually in Europe two or three times a year.

Misty 10:25

yeah, yeah

Peter L 10:26

this time I didn't do Denmark, but I'll be in Denmark in the fall

Misty 10:29

Nice. Nice. Well, it's-- I know that you don't, you're not home very often, so catching you in the middle of a home stint, that's a, it's a rare thing.

Peter L 10:38

It is

Misty 10:39

so, we just, we wanna just, just open it up. And I know, like for us,

Two New Task Books

Misty 10:45

we thought of this, like you have a, you have a new book. You might not think of it as a new book anymore, I don't know. But we like think of it as a new book about math tasks. Um, and we wanted to hear a little bit about that book in case other people it's new for. I know I just got mine not too long ago after our teacher conference when you were there. So yeah, so tell us like what motivated this new book?

Peter L 11:08

Okay. Well, so first of all, there's, there's-- if we're gonna talk about new-ish books, there's two new books, right? There's a K to five task book, and there's a six to 12 task book. The K to five came first, co-written with Megan Drew, and then the six to 12 came out co-written with Kyle Webb. So what motivated these? Um, and it's kind of funny 'cause I say in the introduction, "The world doesn't need more tasks," right? It doesn't need more tasks as, as an introduction to a book on tasks. Um, and I think this is, this is a reaction I get when I'm interacting with teachers everywhere, right? So I'm out there working in the space with teachers, either in classrooms or in workshops, and they're always asking for more tasks. And yet, like we got tasks everywhere, r- our curriculum is full of them, our resources are dripping with them. We're drowning in tasks. You do a Google search for, you know, problem of the day, you're gonna get trillions of hits. There is no shortage of tasks.

Misty 12:10

Mm-hmm.

Peter L 12:10

But

Misty 12:11

And yet you wrote two more books on them.

Peter L 12:13

Yeah. A, a, a funny thing happens when you have that much access to that many tasks, is that When there's too many. It's kind of like when you wanna watch something on a streaming service, service, service, and you turn on Netflix or Hulu or whatever it is, and you're just overwhelmed by choice. And then you don't, you don't know which ones are good because there's so many of them. So I think part of it is that teachers, when they say they want more tasks, they, they want

Why More Tasks Is Not The Goal

Peter L 12:45

less tasks, but they want them to be good. They wanna know that they're good. And I think, you know, Building Thinking Classrooms lives in that space between sort of rich task problem-solving and then thin slicing problem-solving, which is, which is how math is, right? Sometimes it's one big problem that we're working our way through. Sometimes it's a series of smaller problems that we're working our way through, and BTC does both of them quite well. And so I saw this as an opportunity, right? Where there's a want, there's a need, right? But the need and the want aren't always the same thing. So the want was more tasks. That was what was being expressed. I interpreted that to mean that they wanted good tasks, vetted tasks, but I took that to-- as an opportunity to give teachers what I think is what they need, which is here is what a lesson in Building Thinking Classroom looks like, right? Start to finish. So although the book is called "Tasks," it's really 50 lesson plans. 20 what I call non-curricular and 30 what we call, um, curricular thin slice. But the non-curriculars are also curricular if you're, if you're wanting to do divergent-type thinking, right?

Misty 13:59

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter L 14:00

I used them as a platform to build out what a lesson would look like, and also to teach teachers how to build their own Building Thinking Classrooms lessons from the existing resources that they have.

Misty 14:15

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Peter L 14:16

was sort of the, the motivation behind all that

Misty 14:21

Wow.

Joel 14:22

Nice

Misty 14:23

so and that, that's when I was looking at the introduction, you talked about even you have these like new sort of micro move practices.

Macro Moves And Micro Moves

Misty 14:31

Yeah. Tell me some more about those.

Peter L 14:33

So, you know, Building Thinking Classrooms is 14 practices, and people forget that sometimes. It's not just vertical whiteboards. It's like there's-- that's one, there's 13 more. Um, and we call those practices ma-macro moves. And the macro moves haven't really changed since the original research was done. It's, it's still these core things, right? You want students to think, you gotta give them something to think about. That's macro move number one. You need a task. You need to give them someone to think with. That's random groups. That's number two. You need to give them somewhere to do that thinking. That's vertical whiteboards. That's number three, right? You need to launch that task from somewhere. That's practice number six. You gotta avoid answering their questions, especially at the beginning. That's practice number five. You gotta do notes, 11, and check your understanding questions, which is a BTZ version of, of exercises or practice. That's pra-practice number seven, right? We got formative summaries. Like we got all of these, and they're pretty... Like the, the research was pretty clear on these.

Misty 15:37

Mm-hmm

Peter L 15:39

what makes these things actually work and work well in a classroom are the micro moves, right? And I think every teacher who's ever been to a workshop where somebody, uh, from higher ed, a professor comes in and says, "Here's what the research says." They sit there and they go, "Yeah, okay, but how? Like, how am I gonna make that work? That sounds really good in class sizes of two or less, but like, how do I make this practice actually function in my cl- my diverse setting of 30 students?" And, and this is where the micro moves come in, right? The micro moves are those tr- those, those... way we have found to make these things actually operational, these macro moves operational in the reality of a classroom, right? So they could be anything from, well, we found that using cards was the best way to randomize. We found that that there's this very new template, which is in the new book, which works really well for getting the kids to get into that note-making. The, the macro move is we need to have the kids make notes. The micro move is, here's a template that actually works really well, right? We know we want the kids to do independent work, which is the check your understanding questions, but how do we motivate them to do that? Well, here's a micro move of how we label it and how we assign it and how we position it and, and so on and so forth. So the micro moves are really those things, and there's hundreds of them. Like there-- And this is where I spend my work almost extensively now, is when I'm in classrooms, and I'm in about 120 a year, it's, I know what I want to achieve. How am I gonna make it work? And that's those micro moves. And it's, um, it's so exciting when you get to find these things that, that just work

Misty 17:27

Mm-hmm.

Peter L 17:28

Right

Misty 17:29

Well, and I like how you said that, that there's, there's hundreds of them, right? 'Cause it's not, it's not just like, oh great, now Peter put it in his book, that's the way to do it. It's one of the ways to do it. It's a good way to do it. Certainly a great way to do it. And, and I-- And but there's lots of those little ways that align with

Peter L 17:46

and micro moves are very context-dependent,

Misty 17:49

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Peter L 17:50

I launch a task differently if I have 14 students than if I have 36 students. I launch a task very differently if this is the second lesson of a unit or if it's the first lesson of a unit. Like, these micro moves are very context-dependent, and it's part of the artistry of teaching

Misty 18:08

Right, that's what I was just thinking.

Peter L 18:11

Yeah. And I think that that's, I think that's what every teacher does. If, if I was to follow, and I've done this, if I follow a teacher around, I'm gonna-- And I watch them in 10 different lessons, I'm gonna see a different teacher in all 10 lessons because they are responsive to the needs of the room. the micro-moves is what we're doing is we're naming these, we're naming the things that work, we're nuancing them and sort of situating when they work well, and w- and, and then, um, we're, we're working in this space

Misty 18:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. This-- That, that art of teaching, that's one of the things I think, like Joel and I run into all the time, right? When we're helping teachers in their learning workshops and things, and they're like, "Okay, great, yeah, student-centered classroom. Okay, great, yeah. Mastery," you know. "But how do I do it?" Right? That's, that's the thing they want, right? They're like, "Okay, but, but I have these kids, and I have those kids." And like, it's again, it's the context, and that's the part that we can give them some ideas, but there is some part of, oh, okay, living it, figuring out your art, figuring out what works for you n- versus me, you know, all of those pieces, um

Peter L 19:16

yeah. And this is why teaching is and always will be a profession. It's a prof- we're professionals. Teachers are professionals, right? They, they need to be seen as professionals. They need to take on that responsibility and that opportunity as a professional, and they need to-- They-- Like, no curriculum is going to ever be able to replace a teacher. No AI is gonna be able to replace a teacher, because a teacher is the person who can respond in real time to the needs of what the, of, of their class. And

Joel 19:48

Well, I knew that, and like you're saying too, it's not one blanket answer. Like, this is happening, so this is the answer. You have to make that decision in a second based on where

Peter L 19:58

and you know, a lot of the work

Form Vs Function In Implementation

Peter L 20:00

we've done has given teachers the, the sort of naming to be able to make those decisions, right? And I'll give you a really concrete example. So what we've discovered is, you know, we know that we need to consolidate a lesson. We need to consolidate from the bottom. We need to do it at the end of the lesson. There needs to be-- the students still need to have some cognitive energy left. The purpose of that consolidation is to, is to help them organize, structure, and formalize their thinking. It's to turn the thinking into learning, right? Like, we know all of that. But a consolidation at the end of a divergent task looks very different than the consolidation at the end of an, of a convergent task, right? So if it's divergent, gallery walks work great, But if you have a convergent task, meaning that everybody did it exactly the same way, like you could gallery walk it, but it's gonna be the worst gallery walk on the planet, right? Every- It's gonna be so boring and So redundant. So we don't gallery walk when we have a convergent task, right? We do something else. We, we do what's called teacher scrub, and we work through some new, new problems as a class together. And then there's these in-between spaces where it was mostly convergent, but there was a little divergence here. And how do we deal with that? Well, we deal with it the same as if it's a convergent task, but we build in a slight element of divergence in there. But it's, you know, now that, now that we have the language to talk about that, the teacher can look at their class. They have some vocabulary, they have some concepts, they have some practices that they can lean into, and then they can make that decision. so so that's how I see these micro-moves contributing

Misty 21:37

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's, it's makes me re- reminds me of I've worked s- with some, uh, districts at times when, when they're implementing, and they'll have, like, an initiative across the district where we're like, "Okay, everyone is gonna work on doing a huddle." And I'm like, "Well, that's great, but a huddle's not, like, that's not a thing you wanna do every day. It doesn't fit for this reason." You know, like, like it, like it's going about it the wrong way. It's the, the intent is good, but, like, it's, it's, you know, you can't just push everything into one

Peter L 22:10

Yeah.

Misty 22:10

or one strategy

Peter L 22:12

yeah. So Isabelle Stevenson out of, uh, Connecticut publishes the coaching letter,

Misty 22:19

Mm-hmm.

Peter L 22:20

right? And it goes-- comes out about once a week. And for a few weeks there, about four or five weeks, she worked about scalability, right? Like, what does scalability look like? And one of the things-- And she pulls from so many researchers, and one of the things she talked about was the difference between form and function, right? This is what it looks like. This is what it's supposed to do, right And one of the things that we know is it's easy to scale form, right? We could tell people what we want it to look like. You gotta do a huddle. But what's its purpose, right? And if, if we understand the purpose, that's a tougher scalability, right? We-- And, and, and I don't think it's ever gonna be easy because understanding the function of something requires that professional autonomy of the teacher, uh, the knowledge of the teacher. It's-- We can't just scale that with, uh, with a PowerPoint presentation. We can't scale that with with a decree coming out of senior administration, right? Well, we can. We can scale form, right? We can scale the things on how it looks but, you know, form without function is just a very shallow sha- very shallow

Misty 23:32

Mm-hmm.

Peter L 23:32

implementation of something. And I see this build- with building thinking classrooms too, right? Like the, the narrow tip of the wedge for a lot of people with building thinking classrooms is getting the kids up at the whiteboards. But that's not its f- like that's what it looks like, but the function is to get kids to think. It's not just to go practice your worksheet at the whiteboards, Right Like it's, it, it has an underlying function

Misty 23:56

Mm-hmm. I also like the thing when I, I... It seems like, you know, you d- you did all this research, you did lots and lots and lots and lots of observations, right? And tried things and changed things and did the thing that you didn't think was gonna work, and it did. And you sort of like came up to this like high level, you know, like big macro picture, right? Like, "Oh, here's the trends, here's the thing." But then you had to come back down to the details, right? For people to, to, for people to now really carry it out, right?

Peter L 24:29

And I think the reason that that-- You know, I was working with teachers. Like I was-- We were discovering these things in classrooms, and then we were trying to solve the problem. I wasn't just trying to identify the problem. You know, I think we've known for a long time that there's a problem. We have different names for it, and I think different people have identified different aspects of that problem, and I just happened to lean, uh, look under the rock of thinking kids are not thinking. But I was much more passionate about how do we solve this problem, right? Which is-- which required me being in real classrooms. Teachers aren't gonna let it slide very far if, if you don't have some practical solutions, right?

Joel 25:05

Mm-hmm.

Misty 25:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So what kinds of things, what are you doing now? What, like, what kinds of research and things are you doing

Sharpening The Closing And The Launch

Misty 25:15

now? Are you still doing any research?

Peter L 25:17

Oh, Yeah Well, I'm always tinkering and I'm-- in classrooms And, I'm-- And, you know, the research looks a little different now because I'm not trying to identify the problems. Now I'm still-- I'm, I'm really working on, how can I say, easing the solutions, right? Like finding those micro-moves and so on, but at the same time trying to understand some things better. So the book that you mentioned, a really nice thing that we can say about that book is that it really focuses on the closing. There's a lot of clarity around what the closing of the lesson looks like. And it's been really clear, like it's-- like ever since the Orange Book was published, the original one in 2020, I've been working on the closing, right? We knew what the macro-moves were, working on those micro-moves. How do we make the notes better? How do we make the consolidation better? How do we make the check your understanding questions better? Like, how do we make these more practical, more, more, let's see, operational, right? And it really all came together about two years ago, and they're, they're-- that's really what these task books really focus on, is what does a closing look like? So what I can say is, in 2020 when the Orange Book was published, I knew what a good cl-- I knew a good closing when I saw one, and I knew what elements had to be in a good closing, but I couldn't necessarily get from A to B with it. Now I can say with really high confidence that, you know, if I, if I'm in a classroom or if a teacher who's working in a classroom who has read that book or has been in my workshops, they'll be able to close that lesson with high degree of success, right? Because we have sort of gotten that thing figured out. Well, where I was in 2020 with the closing is kind of where I am with the launch. I know a good launch when I see one, and I know the elements of a good launch. What I'm trying to do now is I'm working on trying to figure out Naming. Naming the things that, that aren- that we need to pay attention to when we're deciding what our launch is gonna look like. And that's sort of exciting for me. I'm working in that space. So that's always fun to f- have a new space where I'm, I'm, I'm sort of chipping away at.

Misty 27:34

Mm-hmm.

Assessment With More Eyes On

Peter L 27:35

that, and of course, always assessment. Always assessment. And I just got out of... And it's-- The, the unfortunate thing is I don't get to work on assessment very often. You know, you go into 120 lessons a year, it doesn't matter how many you do, how many of them am I working with a teacher who's at that stage where they're working on assessment and building thinking classrooms? It's-- My metaphor for this, it's kind of like trying to train for the last five miles of a marathon, right?

Misty 28:01

Right. Yeah

Peter L 28:03

when I'm working with teachers in classrooms, we're rarely in the last five miles of the marathon. We're usually in the first five miles. So, so it's rare. But I was just in Iceland and I got to have some amazing conversations with some teachers who are in that last five miles. And so that was, that was wonderful to be able to geek out on that. So there's more work to be done in the assessment space. Uh, and I was just visiting a friend in Napa and we were having those conversations as well. And yeah, and they're working on that and that's gonna be a fun sandbox to, to, to watch as they're in that space

Misty 28:38

Yeah, I feel like for us, assessment is always sort of this like, it's so important, it's so vital. We have to be doing it, and it's done in so many ways that sometimes are, ah, so problematic, and then how to shift it. It's just this really huge thing. It's a huge thing,

Peter L 28:56

Yeah, and it's because part of it is it's, you know, the philosophical ph- positions are so different. And in order for us to make any progress on assessment, we need to have those really deep philosophical questions. It's more than just a practice

Joel 29:10

I, I think of it as the yeah, but answers. Well, do you need to do this? Yeah, but.

Peter L 29:15

Yeah,

Joel 29:15

The yeah

Peter L 29:16

Yeah, and I think the other problem is this, like fundamentally, nobody really cares what you do in your classroom. Like, I know that that's not entirely true, but you can close your door and you do what you want, and nobody's really paying attention. But three or four times a year, you're still gonna have to dock with the mothership, and now everybody's paying attention to that, right? When you start playing in that space of assessment, everybody's got eyes on. There are policies that are at the school level or the department level, school level, district level. There are, you know, we have those, those ubiquitous online grade books that the parents can tap into. There's just so many more eyes on, and there's just so much more, how can I say? More like, uh, people-- There's a lot more people who think they're stakeholders who have their eyes on, right? And so you're not alone in that space. Whereas, you know how you launch a task, nobody's really paying attention to that, right? Like you close your, you close your door, you do your thing

Building Thinking Classrooms Conferences

Misty 30:20

Mm-hmm.

Joel 30:21

Yeah, that's true

Misty 30:24

So, one of the other things we wanted to talk to you about, so it was, I think it's gonna be the third Building Thinking Classrooms conference is coming

Peter L 30:31

Oh, It's a fourth coming

Misty 30:32

the fourth. Oh, see, I am, I'm at... Oh my gosh. The fourth one coming up the end of this month. I'm very excited. I know I'm, I'm going. I'm gonna be presenting again, so I'm very excited, very excited. H- tell us some more, like how that energizes you. I feel like there's like such a, a p- a community there now that's building with that.

Peter L 30:52

Yeah. Okay. So first of all, just to understand, recognize that, you know, this was not something that... Like, I know people from outside sit there and they, they may think, "Okay, yeah, so Peter's created this conference." I haven't. This is not my doing at all. The first one was in Franklin, Indiana, and it was Melissa McCain reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, you know, can you come and do some work? Oh, hey, can we we- we're thinking of making a conference. Oh, hey, can you bring some more people with you?" and the whole time I kept thinking, "This is ridiculous. Like, there's no way that there's gonna be a conference on building thinking classrooms. Like, let's... But okay, I'll just play along." And all of a sudden, at the end of June or at the beginning of July, I'm in Franklin, Indiana, and there's 800 teachers there all interested in building thinking classrooms. And what an experience. It, it's, it's incredibly humbling. It is for me personally, uh, I just feel so honored and blessed to be in that space where-- And, and so thankful that I've been able to give teachers something that they feel passionate about, that they can k- that they wanna come together and talk with other teachers, right? And I feel the same way when I look at the Facebook groups and so on and so forth, or when I'm out there doing workshops and... But there's something really unique about this Building Thinking Classroom Conference because, because it's on one thing. It's on building thinking classroom. It doesn't matter who you're sitting next to or standing next to, you can s- turn and start talking to them.

Misty 32:24

Mm-hmm

Peter L 32:25

and, and, uh, everybody is there for the same reason. Now, there's-- they're in different stages, right? This moves around the country. It was in Franklin, Indiana, it was in Phoenix, Arizona. Last year it was in Renton, Washington. This year it's in New Haven, Connecticut. And there's a reason why you move something around, because it creates access for people. So people who, they may be diehard BTC users, but they haven't been able to get to a conference on the West Coast, but they can get to one on the East Coast. But at the same time, it taps into the curious, the people who have heard something about it, and now it's just really convenient because it's in my backyard. So you're gonna have this range of people there, but that doesn't matter because the best learning spaces are diverse learning spaces.

Misty 33:09

Mm-hmm

Peter L 33:10

I love that diversity that, that this conference brings about. But just those rich conversations, that passion, the joy. People are just super happy. And there's, it, it, you know, it is a, it's a full pack, two pack days of, of sessions, but the whole thing feels like a giant social program at the same time

Misty 33:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Peter L 33:33

And for me you know, I kind of like I, I, I, I'm, I'm always very present wherever I am. I'm always very present. But when I go to this conference and I'm trying to get better at this, I kinda have to dissociate because it is just so amazing that all these people have come together around my work

Misty 33:58

Mm-hmm

Peter L 33:59

that if I, if I, if I'm a little too present and I think a little bit too much about it, I get a little bit overwhelmed,

Misty 34:06

Yeah, undoubtedly

Peter L 34:08

emotionally. So I try to, I try to keep a s- a sort of a distance there in a way. And I know that sounds horrible, but it's just 'cause I'm on stage the whole time too, so I gotta, I gotta get through the business. But this year I'm gonna try to associate a little bit more. And that doesn't mean that I'm not, I'm not available to people and so on, but I kinda have to keep that, you know,

Misty 34:31

Nervous

Peter L 34:31

kinda like being at your own wedding for

Joel 34:33

Yeah.

Peter L 34:34

nonstop

Joel 34:37

That's it. Are there-- Is there anything that has surprised you in the previous conferences that have come out of that conference maybe, or that you weren't expecting?

Peter L 34:48

oh, everything surprises

Joel 34:50

Okay.

Peter L 34:50

the time. Like, I'm-- I tell people I'm constantly living a life that was unpredicted six months ago, right? So I was just in Europe, and I was there f-for this time, for example, I was the release of the Italian version of the book, and it was-- that was really special for me because I started writing the book when I was in Italy. So we actually went back to Naples, where I spent a month writing and so on, and it was, you know, just the surprise around... Back then when I was writing that book, you could never imagine what was gonna happen, right? But the conference in particular-- So the first thing that surprised me the first time was just how happy people are when they're there. And the second thing that surprised me is just how strong this community is. And, and I don't mean people coming together after they haven't seen each other for a year. I mean people who have never seen each other creating community in a heartbeat. And and you see the friendships form, and then after the conference, you, you see people in these... you you run into people at different conferences, and now they're like best buds, and you know they met at the conference. It's, uh, it's just that, I think. And also just how the field is catching up to me, right? At the first conference, Franklin, Indiana, I had, uh, four of my team members there, plus myself, and, like, we were the narrow tip of the wedge, right? Like, we were the, the, the tip of the spear. We were leading the charge. But there were sessions last year in Renton that I'm like, "Wow, these are amazing." We're no la-- Like, we, I may still be, like, the tip of the spear, but it's a very wide tip. And the, the, just the quality of the thinking and the practice and the presentations that people bring to this is just always so surprising. Such a strong community

Misty 36:53

Nice, nice. That's awesome

Peter L 36:56

And I'm also surprised by the international presence. You know, like I've met people from China and, and, uh, oh, where was it? Spain and like, I meet people from all over the world at these conferences too, 'cause they come-- Australia, they come from all over

Misty 37:13

Hmm. That's cool. That's cool. Well, okay, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit. Uh, you said no co- it's not...

Peter L 37:19

And

Institutes That Create Access

Peter L 37:20

this year, hold on. This year

Misty 37:21

okay, yeah

Peter L 37:22

we actually have three conferences this year. So we got the one in New Haven. That's the, that's the sort of fourth version of the, of, of the main conference. But then we have a regional conference in Moncton, New Brunswick in Canada the week after. So that's really cool because it's, it's 80 teachers so far. It's probably gonna get up to about 90 or 100 people, but it's, it's a really small, really intimate setting for two days. Um, and then we have a cross-curricular Building Thinking Classroom conference in Calgary in November. So that one I'm really looking forward to, 'cause about 30% of my work now is cross-curricular

Misty 38:00

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's just there at the, at the BTC conference when I went, Renton there. I mean, there's some really cool things. People talking about using it in math and using it in, in you know, in science and also in, you know, in other subject areas. I love that. All right, well, and you're gon- and you're coming to our conference, right?

Peter L 38:17

I, oh, uh, okay. So hoping to, but hold on. It's in my calendar and-- but here's the thing. I have, I turn... I have a big birthday that week, right? And you know that every time I come to the CPM conference, it's always around my birthday, and it's always

Joel 38:35

Your birthday, huh?

Misty 38:36

It is,

Peter L 38:37

right? But this is a particularly big one year. And and I'll leave the audience to try to guess which one it is. But

Misty 38:45

Mm-hmm

Peter L 38:46

is, I haven't decided yet if we're gonna do something. Like, I'm not one to really celebrate my birthday in a big way, but this one I might do. So I don't know yet, so I'm not committing yet.

Misty 38:57

understand. I understand

Peter L 38:59

My wife and I talk about it, like, every week. "Are we doing something for my birthday?" So maybe the answer is we're going to the CPM conference.

Misty 39:07

There you go. It'll be

Joel 39:08

It would be a celebration

Peter L 39:10

Yeah

Joel 39:12

We can promise

Misty 39:13

I know that there's, there is those, uh, that, uh, conflict

Peter L 39:17

But it's never been a conflict before. It's just that this birthday's a

Misty 39:20

Yeah, I get it

Peter L 39:22

It's a biggie.

Joel 39:23

Yeah

Misty 39:24

for sure. For sure. Well, we have appreciated the times you've come. I mean, definitely that's another space where I think people really appreciate hearing from you. They really appreciate hearing how, like again, the how. They like, they love seeing you do it. I think that is a part of it, right? That you come and you do a lesson, and people are like, "Oh, I see how this can connect

Peter L 39:43

Yeah. And I really, I enjoy going to that conference because it feels like I walk into a space where everybody's already primed. Even if they have never done BTC, they're already in that mindset to just absorb that information. So I've always enjoyed that.

Misty 40:00

Yeah, yeah. We, we definitely appreciate having you there.

Peter L 40:02

Yeah

Misty 40:04

Ah, well, where... So you're home for a little while, and then where are you going next? Are you going to the BTC

Peter L 40:08

oh yeah. Well, okay, so I got Spokane at the end of the month. I'm gonna go and do, uh, spend some time in Spokane, Washington, which is nice. I've never been there, but I do a lot of work in Washington. And then straight from there to the conference. So we're on a six-week tour doing, you know, a little bit of Coast, a little bit of East Coast. And then at the end, near almost at the end of that tour, we have the Building Thinking Classroom Institute in Davis, California. So there's the Teacher Institute and the Coaching Institute, so that's, that, you know, that's the second time we've done that. This is something we have organized.

Misty 40:44

Wow

Peter L 40:44

And the reason we've organized it is because, like my-- the thing that keeps me up at night, the thing that I, I think about and the thing I worry about is the teacher who wants to learn more about Building Thinking Classrooms but doesn't have access to it. And they maybe don't have access to it because they're in a district where they're the only one interested, or in a s- or in a school where they're the only one interested, or a, a school where they don't have the economics to bring in myself or a, a team member and, and so on. So the Teaching Institute was created as a way for those singleton teachers, those teachers who are out there who wanna come and learn about Building Thinking Classrooms, uh, on their own. So it's a three-day institute. and and then we wrap a coaching institute around it, because the other thing that keeps me up at night is either those really big districts or those districts where they have a lot of teachers who are interested in doing Building Thinking Classrooms, but either we don't have the capacity or they don't have the capacity to bring us in,

Misty 41:48

Mm-hmm.

Peter L 41:49

uh, to do enough work in the district to s- to, to provide all of the inf- knowledge that they need. So this is an opportunity for those districts to send their coaches to the institute so that they get trained up so that they can go back home and now develop, de- develop and, and deliver BTC workshops with fidelity and, and at an, at a, let's say, a saturation level high enough that this can actually really be picked up. So those are, you know, like I'm always driven to create access for teachers and coaches. This is why I do so many conferences and go to CTM, and this is why I write so much and do many, so many podcasts like this one. I'm trying to create the access, but you know, there's nothing better than being in person learning about Building Thinking Classrooms with like-minded individuals. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that institute.

Joel 42:47

Very cool

Misty 42:48

Well, that sounds like a pretty full summer for you.

Peter L 42:50

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, uh, and then in August, um, our daughter is coming home from New Zealand

Misty 42:58

Oh,

Peter L 42:58

two weeks, and our son is getting married. So we're-- So that's an exciting time. It's a new

Misty 43:06

Awesome

Peter L 43:07

us. And then we're, uh, off to the Eurasia. So we're gonna spend a lot of time... We're, we're Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Vietnam, uh, Singapore, Korea and Japan

Joel 43:26

Hmm

Misty 43:27

That's awesome. That's awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, it's been

Peter L 43:31

And that kind of takes me up to the NCTM conference, NCTM NCSM conference,

Misty 43:35

There you go.

Peter L 43:36

and then we'll see each other again

Joel 43:38

Absolutely

Misty 43:39

exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you for spending some time with us today. We really appreciate it. We really...

Peter L 43:45

My pleasure.

Misty 43:47

Finding the time

Peter L 43:48

and I'll see you, I'll see you at, uh, in New Haven.

Misty 43:52

You will see me in New Haven

Peter L 43:53

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And then maybe we'll see each other at CPN

Misty 43:58

Indeed. Well, have, have a great summer, and we'll see you soon.

Peter L 44:03

You bet. You too

Wrap Up And What Is Next

Misty 44:11

So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math For More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. and can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math For More People. What day will that be, Joel?