{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":0.36,"endTime":3.54,"body":"Hello and welcome"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":0.36,"endTime":3.54,"body":"listeners to another show. Let's"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":3.54,"endTime":8.22,"body":"talk about grief. I'm Anne"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":3.54,"endTime":8.22,"body":"debutte Your host, grief guide"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":8.28,"endTime":12.36,"body":"and author of griefs, abyss,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":8.28,"endTime":12.36,"body":"finding your pathway to peace."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":12.78,"endTime":17.16,"body":"I'm both honored and delighted"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":12.78,"endTime":17.16,"body":"to welcome Dr Sarah Kerr to our"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":17.16,"endTime":21.38,"body":"show today. Sarah is a death"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":17.16,"endTime":21.38,"body":"doula and a ritual healing"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":21.38,"endTime":27.74,"body":"practitioner at soul passages in"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":21.38,"endTime":27.74,"body":"Calgary, here in Canada. Welcome"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":27.74,"endTime":28.52,"body":"Sarah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":29.06,"endTime":30.56,"body":"thanks, Anne."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":29.06,"endTime":30.56,"body":"It's lovely to be here."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":31.04,"endTime":33.08,"body":"Can you tell the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":31.04,"endTime":33.08,"body":"listeners just a little bit"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":33.08,"endTime":38.18,"body":"about soul passages and how it"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":33.08,"endTime":38.18,"body":"came into being? Well, Soul"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":38.18,"endTime":42.4,"body":"passages is my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":38.18,"endTime":42.4,"body":"death doula practice, and I do a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":42.4,"endTime":45.76,"body":"variety of things under that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":42.4,"endTime":45.76,"body":"umbrella. I work with clients, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":45.76,"endTime":49.6,"body":"teach and I mentor students. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":45.76,"endTime":49.6,"body":"do public education and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":49.6,"endTime":54.16,"body":"community ceremonies. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":49.6,"endTime":54.16,"body":"really an undertaking about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":54.16,"endTime":58.84,"body":"helping people navigate illness,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":54.16,"endTime":58.84,"body":"death, loss and transformation"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":59.08,"endTime":63.0,"body":"from a really sole perspective."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":59.08,"endTime":63.0,"body":"And I work primarily around"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":63.0,"endTime":66.78,"body":"death, either upcoming deaths or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":63.0,"endTime":66.78,"body":"unresolved deaths from the past,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":67.26,"endTime":72.42,"body":"pet deaths, pregnancy loss, any"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":67.26,"endTime":72.42,"body":"variety of that helping people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":72.72,"endTime":78.78,"body":"at wherever stage they are,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":72.72,"endTime":78.78,"body":"integrate and bring their soul"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":78.78,"endTime":83.36,"body":"along with the process. Because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":78.78,"endTime":83.36,"body":"often we can get separated, body"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":83.36,"endTime":87.14,"body":"and soul, the world gaps forward"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":83.36,"endTime":87.14,"body":"and we haven't caught up. So I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":87.14,"endTime":89.24,"body":"would say that's an overview of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":87.14,"endTime":89.24,"body":"the work I do."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":89.3,"endTime":92.36,"body":"Hence, all"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":89.3,"endTime":92.36,"body":"passages brilliant. I think"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":92.36,"endTime":100.04,"body":"that's so true. Just the shark"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":92.36,"endTime":100.04,"body":"of getting that terminal illness"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":100.04,"endTime":104.68,"body":"or the shock of the death. It's"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":100.04,"endTime":104.68,"body":"almost as if the soul and the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":104.68,"endTime":110.62,"body":"bot can perhaps separate, as you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":104.68,"endTime":110.62,"body":"say, from the body and calling"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":110.62,"endTime":114.28,"body":"it back in again. Is that"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":110.62,"endTime":114.28,"body":"something that? Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":114.28,"endTime":116.32,"body":"it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":114.28,"endTime":116.32,"body":"that would be sort of along the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":116.32,"endTime":119.14,"body":"lines of a soul retrieval, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":116.32,"endTime":119.14,"body":"that certainly can be part of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":119.14,"endTime":124.02,"body":"the process. I'm more thinking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":119.14,"endTime":124.02,"body":"that it's not like it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":124.02,"endTime":127.32,"body":"disappears. It just gets stuck"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":124.02,"endTime":127.32,"body":"in us, in a certain place in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":127.32,"endTime":131.1,"body":"time when we all know people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":127.32,"endTime":131.1,"body":"who've been through it has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":131.1,"endTime":134.94,"body":"happened a lot with, say, big"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":131.1,"endTime":134.94,"body":"relationship breakups, where"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":135.48,"endTime":139.68,"body":"they've broken up and they have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":135.48,"endTime":139.68,"body":"both moved on and but 10 years"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":139.68,"endTime":142.88,"body":"later, they still haven't let"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":139.68,"endTime":142.88,"body":"go. That's when your soul and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":142.88,"endTime":145.58,"body":"your body haven't caught up. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":142.88,"endTime":145.58,"body":"it can be the same way if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":145.58,"endTime":149.9,"body":"someone gets either an expected"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":145.58,"endTime":149.9,"body":"or unexpected death or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":149.9,"endTime":155.24,"body":"experiences someone close to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":149.9,"endTime":155.24,"body":"them, and even if you expect it,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":155.24,"endTime":159.92,"body":"even if you know it's coming,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":155.24,"endTime":159.92,"body":"it's such a primal shock to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":159.92,"endTime":165.88,"body":"system that the soul doesn't,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":159.92,"endTime":165.88,"body":"doesn't, by default, integrate"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":165.88,"endTime":170.5,"body":"and continue to catch up it. It"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":165.88,"endTime":170.5,"body":"needs ritual, or at least some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":170.5,"endTime":174.4,"body":"sort of psycho spiritual support"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":170.5,"endTime":174.4,"body":"to do that. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":174.76,"endTime":177.88,"body":"well, thank you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":174.76,"endTime":177.88,"body":"for explaining that. Curious."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":178.54,"endTime":182.46,"body":"How did you get into becoming a"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":178.54,"endTime":182.46,"body":"death doula?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":184.439,"endTime":186.419,"body":"Came through, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":184.439,"endTime":186.419,"body":"think, a lot of different ways,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":186.419,"endTime":190.679,"body":"and as I look back on my sort of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":186.419,"endTime":190.679,"body":"life history, everything seems"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":190.679,"endTime":193.139,"body":"to have lined me up to get here,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":190.679,"endTime":193.139,"body":"but I never would have thought"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":193.139,"endTime":195.479,"body":"at the beginning, and I never"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":193.139,"endTime":195.479,"body":"did think that this is where I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":195.479,"endTime":201.259,"body":"was going. So I spent a long"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":195.479,"endTime":201.259,"body":"time in different sort of work"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":201.259,"endTime":204.499,"body":"situations, working with groups,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":201.259,"endTime":204.499,"body":"helping groups work together,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":204.499,"endTime":207.739,"body":"accomplish things together,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":204.499,"endTime":207.739,"body":"conflict resolution, group"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":207.739,"endTime":211.219,"body":"decision making. So I'm really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":207.739,"endTime":211.219,"body":"wired for how groups operate,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":211.219,"endTime":214.279,"body":"and the work I do is primarily"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":211.219,"endTime":214.279,"body":"with groups. I work with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":214.279,"endTime":220.339,"body":"families and communities, and I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":214.279,"endTime":220.339,"body":"was an activist for many years."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":220.339,"endTime":223.479,"body":"And so for me, this is a sort of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":220.339,"endTime":223.479,"body":"extension of social justice"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":223.479,"endTime":228.159,"body":"work, a kind of social healing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":223.479,"endTime":228.159,"body":"work. And then my dad had a big"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":228.159,"endTime":234.099,"body":"stroke in 2009 and lived for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":228.159,"endTime":234.099,"body":"another seven years, but was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":234.099,"endTime":239.079,"body":"really, it was a kind of social"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":234.099,"endTime":239.079,"body":"death, and that really threw me"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":239.079,"endTime":242.699,"body":"into realizing how unprepared I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":239.079,"endTime":242.699,"body":"was, and wanting to get better"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":242.699,"endTime":247.019,"body":"prepared myself and to help"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":242.699,"endTime":247.019,"body":"others. And then lots of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":247.019,"endTime":250.439,"body":"different threads weave in here."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":247.019,"endTime":250.439,"body":"And then I did my doctoral"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":250.439,"endTime":256.679,"body":"research on ritual and how"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":250.439,"endTime":256.679,"body":"modern Western people can meet"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":256.739,"endTime":261.079,"body":"the big transitions in their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":256.739,"endTime":261.079,"body":"lives with contemporary ritual,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":261.079,"endTime":264.979,"body":"which is not extracted from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":261.079,"endTime":264.979,"body":"other cultures or other"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":264.979,"endTime":268.579,"body":"religious traditions, but grows"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":264.979,"endTime":268.579,"body":"as much as possible out of our"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":268.579,"endTime":272.539,"body":"own lives and our own contexts."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":268.579,"endTime":272.539,"body":"So all those things kind of fed"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":272.539,"endTime":277.579,"body":"together to lead me to this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":272.539,"endTime":277.579,"body":"place. And I say I'm a death"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":277.579,"endTime":281.019,"body":"doula and a ritual healing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":277.579,"endTime":281.019,"body":"practitioner, so it's primarily"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":281.019,"endTime":283.179,"body":"the ritual work, which I focus"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":281.019,"endTime":283.179,"body":"on."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":284.5,"endTime":288.64,"body":"That in itself, I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":284.5,"endTime":288.64,"body":"find intriguing in this day and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":288.64,"endTime":293.8,"body":"age when we know funerals"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":288.64,"endTime":293.8,"body":"themselves are tending to be"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":293.8,"endTime":298.6,"body":"less and less, and people don't"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":293.8,"endTime":298.6,"body":"seem to have that ritual, but"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":298.6,"endTime":303.72,"body":"are jumping more to. To"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":298.6,"endTime":303.72,"body":"celebrate life, almost as if"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":303.72,"endTime":308.76,"body":"they are bypassing the pain and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":303.72,"endTime":308.76,"body":"the grief of the of what a"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":308.76,"endTime":314.16,"body":"traditional funeral is. And I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":308.76,"endTime":314.16,"body":"find that that is so sad to me."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":314.16,"endTime":318.0,"body":"I feel there needs to be some"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":314.16,"endTime":318.0,"body":"kind of container for the grief."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":318.12,"endTime":320.36,"body":"Would you agree? Yes,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":320.36,"endTime":323.54,"body":"you know, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":320.36,"endTime":323.54,"body":"think one of the great tragedies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":323.54,"endTime":326.3,"body":"around how we meet death, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":323.54,"endTime":326.3,"body":"there are many in this culture,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":326.3,"endTime":331.1,"body":"is that we've lost the practice"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":326.3,"endTime":331.1,"body":"of a healing funeral, of a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":331.1,"endTime":336.38,"body":"meaningful, valuable experience,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":331.1,"endTime":336.38,"body":"where people go in and they come"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":336.38,"endTime":341.08,"body":"out with more resilience and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":336.38,"endTime":341.08,"body":"more capacity, and they're more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":341.08,"endTime":344.98,"body":"accepting of what's happened."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":341.08,"endTime":344.98,"body":"And we have a lot of examples of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":345.04,"endTime":348.88,"body":"not very satisfying kind of bad"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":345.04,"endTime":348.88,"body":"funerals. And so I think somehow"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":348.88,"endTime":352.0,"body":"people have thought, well, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":348.88,"endTime":352.0,"body":"don't want a bad funeral, so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":352.0,"endTime":355.84,"body":"I'll have no funeral, when, in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":352.0,"endTime":355.84,"body":"fact, the solution is actually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":355.96,"endTime":361.74,"body":"to explore what a good funeral"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":355.96,"endTime":361.74,"body":"would be and and layer on top of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":361.74,"endTime":365.76,"body":"that this other cultural pattern"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":361.74,"endTime":365.76,"body":"where we don't have skills to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":365.76,"endTime":369.6,"body":"deal with grief and we our only"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":365.76,"endTime":369.6,"body":"solution is to think, well, if I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":369.6,"endTime":374.04,"body":"don't think about it, I won't be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":369.6,"endTime":374.04,"body":"sad and don't cry. We have these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":374.04,"endTime":376.98,"body":"sort of warped understandings,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":374.04,"endTime":376.98,"body":"and so we think, okay, we need"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":376.98,"endTime":380.04,"body":"something, but we'll make it a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":376.98,"endTime":380.04,"body":"happy thing, not a sad thing,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":380.16,"endTime":383.54,"body":"because then we'll be happy, not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":380.16,"endTime":383.54,"body":"sad, when, in fact, as you say,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":383.84,"endTime":388.34,"body":"we are sad and we need a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":383.84,"endTime":388.34,"body":"container to hold that sadness."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":388.34,"endTime":391.46,"body":"And when we give ourselves a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":388.34,"endTime":391.46,"body":"chance to be present to that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":391.46,"endTime":395.78,"body":"sadness and let it move, that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":391.46,"endTime":395.78,"body":"actually how it heals. It's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":395.96,"endTime":399.38,"body":"by repressing it, it's by being"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":395.96,"endTime":399.38,"body":"present to it. And a good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":399.38,"endTime":403.54,"body":"funeral can be one of the most"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":399.38,"endTime":403.54,"body":"beautiful things, but we don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":403.54,"endTime":405.94,"body":"have a lot of models for that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":403.54,"endTime":405.94,"body":"No, okay,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":405.94,"endTime":411.82,"body":"so say, I come to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":405.94,"endTime":411.82,"body":"you I'm experiencing a loss, and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":412.18,"endTime":415.6,"body":"we know that we want to have"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":412.18,"endTime":415.6,"body":"something. What would you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":415.66,"endTime":420.04,"body":"counsel me or how would you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":415.66,"endTime":420.04,"body":"coach me into say a good"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":420.04,"endTime":422.82,"body":"funeral? Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":422.82,"endTime":426.06,"body":"there are two"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":422.82,"endTime":426.06,"body":"things that happen. One is that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":426.12,"endTime":432.54,"body":"it's very personalized. So you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":426.12,"endTime":432.54,"body":"would probably be you and your"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":432.54,"endTime":435.66,"body":"family, because these things"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":432.54,"endTime":435.66,"body":"happen in families or you and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":435.66,"endTime":440.78,"body":"your community. So I do a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":435.66,"endTime":440.78,"body":"exploring to see you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":440.78,"endTime":443.3,"body":"depends where we are. Has the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":440.78,"endTime":443.3,"body":"person died yet? Have they just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":443.3,"endTime":445.76,"body":"died as an expected death,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":443.3,"endTime":445.76,"body":"sudden death? All of those make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":445.76,"endTime":448.88,"body":"a big difference. Was it a was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":445.76,"endTime":448.88,"body":"it a death 10 years ago that was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":448.88,"endTime":452.96,"body":"never properly honored? So we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":448.88,"endTime":452.96,"body":"figure out what the situation is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":452.96,"endTime":456.92,"body":"and and what's needed for this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":452.96,"endTime":456.92,"body":"family. So sometimes there's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":456.92,"endTime":463.12,"body":"some unique aspects of it, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":456.92,"endTime":463.12,"body":"mostly a funeral and a death is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":463.12,"endTime":468.34,"body":"a fairly archetypal event, so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":463.12,"endTime":468.34,"body":"they're often have a similar"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":468.34,"endTime":472.96,"body":"pattern. And what I often do, if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":468.34,"endTime":472.96,"body":"I'm working with families from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":472.96,"endTime":477.88,"body":"before a death to up to and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":472.96,"endTime":477.88,"body":"including and past the funeral,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":478.96,"endTime":483.96,"body":"my approach is that again, back"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":478.96,"endTime":483.96,"body":"to the soul needing time to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":483.96,"endTime":488.64,"body":"catch up. So say someone dies, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":483.96,"endTime":488.64,"body":"go to the hospice three in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":488.64,"endTime":492.06,"body":"morning. That's how we do our"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":488.64,"endTime":492.06,"body":"first ceremony. So it's actually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":492.06,"endTime":496.92,"body":"a series of ceremonies, because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":492.06,"endTime":496.92,"body":"the closest people are in shock"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":496.92,"endTime":500.84,"body":"right then and there, and they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":496.92,"endTime":500.84,"body":"need some integration. So we'll"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":500.84,"endTime":504.68,"body":"do a kind of bedside Last Rite"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":500.84,"endTime":504.68,"body":"ceremony might take two or three"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":504.68,"endTime":508.4,"body":"or four hours to get people to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":504.68,"endTime":508.4,"body":"the place where they can just if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":508.76,"endTime":510.86,"body":"they're not going to bring the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":508.76,"endTime":510.86,"body":"body home and care for it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":510.86,"endTime":514.16,"body":"themselves, then just to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":510.86,"endTime":514.16,"body":"place where the closest person,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":514.16,"endTime":517.94,"body":"say the spouse or the child, can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":514.16,"endTime":517.94,"body":"pull the sheet over someone's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":517.94,"endTime":523.9,"body":"head that says they are dead,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":517.94,"endTime":523.9,"body":"and that movement says, okay, my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":523.9,"endTime":528.04,"body":"soul has come to terms with this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":523.9,"endTime":528.04,"body":"part of it. That's the first"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":528.04,"endTime":531.88,"body":"ceremony. And then there might"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":528.04,"endTime":531.88,"body":"be two or three more ceremonies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":532.18,"endTime":534.76,"body":"between that point and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":532.18,"endTime":534.76,"body":"funeral, which might be a week"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":534.76,"endTime":538.78,"body":"or 10 days later. At each of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":534.76,"endTime":538.78,"body":"those ceremonies, ever"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":538.78,"endTime":542.34,"body":"increasing, groups of people get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":538.78,"endTime":542.34,"body":"together and get to process and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":542.34,"endTime":545.22,"body":"integrate, and then process and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":542.34,"endTime":545.22,"body":"integrate with a bigger group,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":545.28,"endTime":549.9,"body":"and then the funeral is the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":545.28,"endTime":549.9,"body":"fourth or more in a series, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":549.9,"endTime":552.12,"body":"that's where you process and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":549.9,"endTime":552.12,"body":"integrate with a really big"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":552.12,"endTime":556.08,"body":"group, because for the family,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":552.12,"endTime":556.08,"body":"the funeral is not a grief"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":556.08,"endTime":559.44,"body":"ritual. It's not an integration"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":556.08,"endTime":559.44,"body":"ritual. And I think people will"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":559.44,"endTime":562.4,"body":"probably be familiar with the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":559.44,"endTime":562.4,"body":"feeling of kind of having to zip"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":562.4,"endTime":566.54,"body":"yourself up and button yourself"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":562.4,"endTime":566.54,"body":"down, yeah, and gird yourself to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":566.54,"endTime":570.44,"body":"walk in and prepare. And people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":566.54,"endTime":570.44,"body":"don't hear what anybody says."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":570.44,"endTime":573.74,"body":"They don't know who was there."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":570.44,"endTime":573.74,"body":"They're not ready for that,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":573.74,"endTime":577.76,"body":"yeah. So these other ceremonies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":573.74,"endTime":577.76,"body":"get people ready for that, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":577.76,"endTime":581.92,"body":"then the funeral. Then we design"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":577.76,"endTime":581.92,"body":"it and do the funeral. But for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":581.92,"endTime":585.04,"body":"me, the funeral can't happen"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":581.92,"endTime":585.04,"body":"very well unless we have some of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":585.04,"endTime":588.64,"body":"these other ceremonies that lead"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":585.04,"endTime":588.64,"body":"up to it, to get people able to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":588.64,"endTime":594.58,"body":"receive what the funeral is,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":588.64,"endTime":594.58,"body":"which for the family, is a sign"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":594.58,"endTime":597.7,"body":"that your community is here on"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":594.58,"endTime":597.7,"body":"your behalf. It's a support"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":597.7,"endTime":599.08,"body":"ritual. It's not a grief ritual."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":599.2,"endTime":602.76,"body":"Yeah. And very"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":599.2,"endTime":602.76,"body":"often, once the funeral has"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":602.76,"endTime":606.72,"body":"happened, the community goes"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":602.76,"endTime":606.72,"body":"back to their lives, and the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":606.72,"endTime":612.06,"body":"family is totally on their own."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":606.72,"endTime":612.06,"body":"Is that something that you stay"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":612.06,"endTime":615.72,"body":"with a family and help them"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":612.06,"endTime":615.72,"body":"through those early stages, or"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":615.72,"endTime":619.14,"body":"have you prepared them well"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":615.72,"endTime":619.14,"body":"enough that they don't perhaps"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":619.14,"endTime":620.84,"body":"need that? You"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":620.84,"endTime":623.06,"body":"know, it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":620.84,"endTime":623.06,"body":"interesting this idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":623.06,"endTime":629.18,"body":"creating new cultural patterns"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":623.06,"endTime":629.18,"body":"around death. And I in working"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":629.18,"endTime":633.08,"body":"with families, this series of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":629.18,"endTime":633.08,"body":"progressive ceremonies leading"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":633.08,"endTime":636.14,"body":"up to the funeral, that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":633.08,"endTime":636.14,"body":"starting to, you know, I do that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":636.14,"endTime":638.24,"body":"fairly with them when I work"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":636.14,"endTime":638.24,"body":"with a family, that's that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":638.24,"endTime":641.86,"body":"generally how we do it at the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":638.24,"endTime":641.86,"body":"end of the funeral, people are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":641.86,"endTime":646.36,"body":"often exhausted, and there's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":641.86,"endTime":646.36,"body":"there's a way that the funeral"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":646.36,"endTime":649.72,"body":"is a kind of period. At the end"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":646.36,"endTime":649.72,"body":"of a sentence, there's a new"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":649.72,"endTime":652.96,"body":"sentence that begins, but a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":649.72,"endTime":652.96,"body":"funeral lets you, least you come"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":652.96,"endTime":656.74,"body":"down, you take a breath before"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":652.96,"endTime":656.74,"body":"you take the next one. So as of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":656.74,"endTime":659.74,"body":"yet, families have been so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":656.74,"endTime":659.74,"body":"exhausted, they just kind of are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":659.74,"endTime":665.88,"body":"done. But I actually really see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":659.74,"endTime":665.88,"body":"a need for some post funeral"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":665.94,"endTime":672.72,"body":"work and a more titrated,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":665.94,"endTime":672.72,"body":"gradual, sort of leaving of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":672.72,"endTime":675.12,"body":"community after the funeral."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":672.72,"endTime":675.12,"body":"You're right. People kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":675.12,"endTime":677.64,"body":"vaporize, yeah, and there's some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":675.12,"endTime":677.64,"body":"beautiful traditions in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":677.64,"endTime":682.04,"body":"Jewish tradition around this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":677.64,"endTime":682.04,"body":"different timing, but this way"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":682.04,"endTime":684.74,"body":"of people being with you and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":682.04,"endTime":684.74,"body":"feeding you and you're not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":684.74,"endTime":688.46,"body":"alone, and maybe there's another"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":684.74,"endTime":688.46,"body":"week. So again, I haven't done"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":688.46,"endTime":692.06,"body":"that, but I certainly have some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":688.46,"endTime":692.06,"body":"ideas about how we could do that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":692.06,"endTime":695.3,"body":"to, again, help people gradually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":692.06,"endTime":695.3,"body":"come to terms."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":695.839,"endTime":700.959,"body":"Yes, I, for one,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":695.839,"endTime":700.959,"body":"have looked at the Jewish faith"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":700.959,"endTime":707.499,"body":"to how they manage to do it. And"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":700.959,"endTime":707.499,"body":"to me, it's such a loving way,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":707.499,"endTime":711.579,"body":"because you the last thing you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":707.499,"endTime":711.579,"body":"want to do. You've got family"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":711.579,"endTime":714.579,"body":"who have descended, perhaps from"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":711.579,"endTime":714.579,"body":"out of town, and there you are"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":714.639,"endTime":718.899,"body":"cooking and cleaning still. So"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":714.639,"endTime":718.899,"body":"how lovely just to be able to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":718.899,"endTime":723.659,"body":"sit there with your emotions and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":718.899,"endTime":723.659,"body":"talk about the person and just"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":723.659,"endTime":728.039,"body":"be with family. So yes, I think"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":723.659,"endTime":728.039,"body":"we need to advocate a little bit"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":728.039,"endTime":733.019,"body":"more for that. Thank you. I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":728.039,"endTime":733.019,"body":"noticed when I peeked on your"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":733.019,"endTime":739.319,"body":"website that you have all your"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":733.019,"endTime":739.319,"body":"ancestors on on your page, and I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":739.319,"endTime":741.379,"body":"noticed that some of them come"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":739.319,"endTime":741.379,"body":"from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":741.38,"endTime":745.46,"body":"Glasgow, yes."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":741.38,"endTime":745.46,"body":"And that's Scottish roots, yeah."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":745.52,"endTime":749.78,"body":"And that's where I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":745.52,"endTime":749.78,"body":"was born. So I was delighted to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":749.78,"endTime":753.98,"body":"sort of see that. I wasn't too"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":749.78,"endTime":753.98,"body":"sure if that was you honoring"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":753.98,"endTime":757.7,"body":"your ancestors, or do you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":753.98,"endTime":757.7,"body":"actually work with the Family"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":757.7,"endTime":761.74,"body":"Constellations? There's been a"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":757.7,"endTime":761.74,"body":"lot of resurgence of looking"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":761.74,"endTime":765.94,"body":"into the lineage and and healing"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":761.74,"endTime":765.94,"body":"around that. So I wasn't too"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":765.94,"endTime":767.8,"body":"sure if the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":767.8,"endTime":774.1,"body":"answer is yes to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":767.8,"endTime":774.1,"body":"both they are there, because I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":774.4,"endTime":778.84,"body":"spent a lot of time thinking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":774.4,"endTime":778.84,"body":"about and honoring and being"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":778.84,"endTime":784.86,"body":"aware of how my life is possible"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":778.84,"endTime":784.86,"body":"because of them, and so that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":784.86,"endTime":789.84,"body":"part of my own practice. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":784.86,"endTime":789.84,"body":"also a bit of a, I guess, a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":790.26,"endTime":796.68,"body":"teaching moment to say that we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":790.26,"endTime":796.68,"body":"live in a culture that forgets"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":796.68,"endTime":799.92,"body":"the old and forgets the dead and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":796.68,"endTime":799.92,"body":"we gallop forward into the new."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":800.4,"endTime":804.74,"body":"And that I believe is part of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":800.4,"endTime":804.74,"body":"our dysfunctionality around"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":804.74,"endTime":808.46,"body":"death. But death is so scary"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":804.74,"endTime":808.46,"body":"because in a way, we get lost"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":808.46,"endTime":812.6,"body":"when we die, we're we're almost"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":808.46,"endTime":812.6,"body":"abandoned by our community, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":812.6,"endTime":816.86,"body":"so that's just a little gesture"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":812.6,"endTime":816.86,"body":"that says, No, you're not lost,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":817.16,"endTime":820.78,"body":"you're there, and you still hold"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":817.16,"endTime":820.78,"body":"a place and an important place"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":820.78,"endTime":825.88,"body":"in my world. So it's both a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":820.78,"endTime":825.88,"body":"personal practice and a move"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":825.88,"endTime":829.18,"body":"towards creating a new cultural"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":825.88,"endTime":829.18,"body":"pattern. And to your other"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":829.18,"endTime":832.9,"body":"question, yes, I work a lot with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":829.18,"endTime":832.9,"body":"systemic family constellation"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":833.2,"endTime":836.98,"body":"models and use that. And we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":833.2,"endTime":836.98,"body":"could go down a long path about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":836.98,"endTime":841.68,"body":"how I use that in my work with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":836.98,"endTime":841.68,"body":"families, but certainly the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":841.68,"endTime":844.92,"body":"ancestral patterns, and in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":841.68,"endTime":844.92,"body":"particular, for folks who aren't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":844.98,"endTime":848.7,"body":"familiar with constellation"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":844.98,"endTime":848.7,"body":"work, it's a model that was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":848.7,"endTime":851.82,"body":"developed by a man named Burt"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":848.7,"endTime":851.82,"body":"Hellinger in Germany, and looks"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":851.82,"endTime":856.38,"body":"at the field and how the field,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":851.82,"endTime":856.38,"body":"the energetic field of any"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":856.38,"endTime":860.16,"body":"system, is like a mobile you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":856.38,"endTime":860.16,"body":"touch one piece and something"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":860.16,"endTime":864.32,"body":"else moves. So that, I find is a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":860.16,"endTime":864.32,"body":"very useful frame for working"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":864.32,"endTime":864.98,"body":"with families."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":865.82,"endTime":868.34,"body":"Would you work"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":865.82,"endTime":868.34,"body":"with them if there was some"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":868.34,"endTime":871.7,"body":"dysfunction in the family, or if"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":868.34,"endTime":871.7,"body":"somebody was having a really"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":871.7,"endTime":875.3,"body":"hard time? I'm just attempting"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":871.7,"endTime":875.3,"body":"to see how you would pull that"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":875.3,"endTime":876.62,"body":"into your work."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":877.46,"endTime":881.38,"body":"Well, I don't so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":877.46,"endTime":881.38,"body":"the traditional family"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":881.38,"endTime":884.68,"body":"constellation model is a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":881.38,"endTime":884.68,"body":"therapeutic model. You come with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":884.68,"endTime":888.34,"body":"an issue and you find a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":884.68,"endTime":888.34,"body":"ancestral root of that issue"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":888.34,"endTime":892.24,"body":"often, and unwind it at the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":888.34,"endTime":892.24,"body":"ancestral level. I don't do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":892.24,"endTime":896.2,"body":"anything that looks like that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":892.24,"endTime":896.2,"body":"with families, okay, but what I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":896.2,"endTime":902.04,"body":"do is so often in a family. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":896.2,"endTime":902.04,"body":"if there's a death that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":902.04,"endTime":906.36,"body":"properly honored or properly"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":902.04,"endTime":906.36,"body":"integrated somewhere up the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":906.36,"endTime":911.28,"body":"line, that has repercussions"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":906.36,"endTime":911.28,"body":"downstream for people, and so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":911.58,"endTime":915.24,"body":"someone will say, Well, I, you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":911.58,"endTime":915.24,"body":"know, I, I was in constellation"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":915.24,"endTime":917.64,"body":"the other day, and this woman"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":915.24,"endTime":917.64,"body":"said, You know what, I just have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":917.64,"endTime":919.62,"body":"been struggling with eating"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":917.64,"endTime":919.62,"body":"issues. And we did a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":919.62,"endTime":922.34,"body":"constellation, it turns out,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":919.62,"endTime":922.34,"body":"your ancestors had been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":922.34,"endTime":925.52,"body":"Ukrainian and starved by style,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":922.34,"endTime":925.52,"body":"and so we're great grand so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":925.52,"endTime":931.52,"body":"there's a way that eating issues"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":925.52,"endTime":931.52,"body":"traveled. So what I more look at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":931.82,"endTime":935.72,"body":"doing is saying, okay, here"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":931.82,"endTime":935.72,"body":"we're in the moment. How do we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":935.78,"endTime":941.32,"body":"integrate this experience so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":935.78,"endTime":941.32,"body":"it's fully digested in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":941.32,"endTime":944.92,"body":"family field so that it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":941.32,"endTime":944.92,"body":"have to show up later as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":944.92,"endTime":949.66,"body":"something dysfunctional. So I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":944.92,"endTime":949.66,"body":"look at the gestures, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":949.66,"endTime":952.96,"body":"constellation show us how to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":949.66,"endTime":952.96,"body":"make, and the statements, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":952.96,"endTime":957.4,"body":"healing sentences that need to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":952.96,"endTime":957.4,"body":"be said. I'm sorry. I forgive"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":957.4,"endTime":962.52,"body":"you, I love you. I leave this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":957.4,"endTime":962.52,"body":"with you. I take this. This is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":962.52,"endTime":966.12,"body":"mine. This is not yours. Those"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":962.52,"endTime":966.12,"body":"kinds of things, and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":966.12,"endTime":969.96,"body":"physical movement, gestures,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":966.12,"endTime":969.96,"body":"rituals, are very much about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":969.96,"endTime":974.34,"body":"embodied movements. And when we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":969.96,"endTime":974.34,"body":"do something with our body, like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":974.58,"endTime":978.18,"body":"pull a sheet over someone's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":974.58,"endTime":978.18,"body":"face, that's that does something"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":978.18,"endTime":982.04,"body":"in the field. So I use those"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":978.18,"endTime":982.04,"body":"principles, okay, but no one who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":982.04,"endTime":985.34,"body":"I'm working with would ever look"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":982.04,"endTime":985.34,"body":"and say, Oh, isn't this like a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":985.34,"endTime":987.92,"body":"constellation? It's more that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":985.34,"endTime":987.92,"body":"those principles guide the work,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":988.7,"endTime":989.36,"body":"beautifully"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":989.36,"endTime":992.18,"body":"done. Be"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":989.36,"endTime":992.18,"body":"interesting to see that in"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":992.18,"endTime":999.74,"body":"action. You see people who have"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":992.18,"endTime":999.74,"body":"a life threatening illness, and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":999.74,"endTime":1007.32,"body":"you help them, I understand, to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":999.74,"endTime":1007.32,"body":"grieve their life before it may"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1007.32,"endTime":1013.08,"body":"be a cancer diagnosis, the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1007.32,"endTime":1013.08,"body":"doctor can say three to five"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1013.08,"endTime":1018.06,"body":"years. So obviously there's the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1013.08,"endTime":1018.06,"body":"grief. They can do that. But"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1018.06,"endTime":1024.74,"body":"then, how do you integrate"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1018.06,"endTime":1024.74,"body":"obviously, they still need to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1024.74,"endTime":1030.86,"body":"live. They can't be sort of, oh,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1024.74,"endTime":1030.86,"body":"looking at the end. I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1030.86,"endTime":1034.94,"body":"die and be waiting for it. So I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1030.86,"endTime":1034.94,"body":"was curious to know how you"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1035.18,"endTime":1042.28,"body":"handled the grieving part of of"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1035.18,"endTime":1042.28,"body":"the loss of we're going to live"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1042.28,"endTime":1046.96,"body":"forever, kind of attitude, and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1042.28,"endTime":1046.96,"body":"then helping them integrate to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1046.96,"endTime":1050.08,"body":"the life that they have left."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1046.96,"endTime":1050.08,"body":"Perhaps that's a better word,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1052.96,"endTime":1057.7,"body":"you know. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1052.96,"endTime":1057.7,"body":"mean, I certainly have lots of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1057.7,"endTime":1062.58,"body":"space in my work and there's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1057.7,"endTime":1062.58,"body":"lots of attention to grief, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1064.5,"endTime":1067.38,"body":"I wouldn't say I'm a grief"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1064.5,"endTime":1067.38,"body":"coach, right? I'm not working"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1067.5,"endTime":1074.64,"body":"specifically with that. I'm a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1067.5,"endTime":1074.64,"body":"death doula, yeah? And so I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1074.64,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"don't the person who's dying is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1074.64,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"not my only client. I'm working"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1086.42,"body":"with the family, and they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1086.42,"body":"part of that, okay? And I often"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1088.16,"endTime":1093.56,"body":"become really more active with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1088.16,"endTime":1093.56,"body":"people when they it's almost"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1093.56,"endTime":1096.32,"body":"like a conveyor belt. One of my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1093.56,"endTime":1096.32,"body":"clients described it like this,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1097.04,"endTime":1101.02,"body":"and you know, if, if you have a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1097.04,"endTime":1101.02,"body":"terminal diagnosis, the conveyor"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1101.02,"endTime":1105.64,"body":"belt is rolling, and people run"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1101.02,"endTime":1105.64,"body":"backwards against it, and they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1105.64,"endTime":1109.66,"body":"try and find new routes, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1105.64,"endTime":1109.66,"body":"they they do everything they can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1110.02,"endTime":1116.56,"body":"to try and assuage death. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1110.02,"endTime":1116.56,"body":"this the response, and I often"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1116.56,"endTime":1122.82,"body":"come in when people have made"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1116.56,"endTime":1122.82,"body":"that turn, or I sort of help"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1122.82,"endTime":1124.98,"body":"them make that turn, if that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1122.82,"endTime":1124.98,"body":"feels like the place that they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1124.98,"endTime":1128.46,"body":"are, where they say actually,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1124.98,"endTime":1128.46,"body":"I'm not looking back at my life"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1128.46,"endTime":1132.72,"body":"anymore. Now I'm actually moving"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1128.46,"endTime":1132.72,"body":"at the same speed as a conveyor"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1132.72,"endTime":1136.92,"body":"belt, and I'm looking at where"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1132.72,"endTime":1136.92,"body":"I'm going. And so if that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1136.92,"endTime":1140.78,"body":"where I'm going now, I actually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1136.92,"endTime":1140.78,"body":"need to look at it. How do I do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1140.78,"endTime":1146.12,"body":"that? What do I need to do to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1140.78,"endTime":1146.12,"body":"able to say goodbye? What do I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1146.12,"endTime":1149.96,"body":"need to be able to do in my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1146.12,"endTime":1149.96,"body":"family so that we can love each"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1149.96,"endTime":1154.64,"body":"other as much as we can, knowing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1149.96,"endTime":1154.64,"body":"that this end is coming and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1154.64,"endTime":1159.2,"body":"grief is part of that, but it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1154.64,"endTime":1159.2,"body":"also a much bigger frame around"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1162.94,"body":"okay, this is, this is the next"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1162.94,"body":"thing we're going to do. How are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1162.94,"endTime":1166.96,"body":"we going to do this together? So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1162.94,"endTime":1166.96,"body":"that, I would say, is a bigger"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1166.96,"endTime":1172.24,"body":"focus of it, and, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1166.96,"endTime":1172.24,"body":"someone working with a grief"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1172.24,"endTime":1175.42,"body":"coach or a therapist as part of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1172.24,"endTime":1175.42,"body":"that would probably be a good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1175.42,"endTime":1178.36,"body":"adject, because it is. It's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1175.42,"endTime":1178.36,"body":"community process I'm doing, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1178.36,"endTime":1181.62,"body":"there's community grief, and we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1178.36,"endTime":1181.62,"body":"make space for that. And that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1181.62,"endTime":1186.0,"body":"can be even just family"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1181.62,"endTime":1186.0,"body":"ceremonies. Sometimes it's and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1186.0,"endTime":1191.22,"body":"ceremonies can be on the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1186.0,"endTime":1191.22,"body":"outside, very simple looking,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1191.22,"endTime":1195.54,"body":"but on the inside, quite"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1191.22,"endTime":1195.54,"body":"profound. Just the first"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1195.54,"endTime":1198.0,"body":"conversation that gets the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1195.54,"endTime":1198.0,"body":"elephant out from underneath the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1198.0,"endTime":1201.5,"body":"rug and people get a chance to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1198.0,"endTime":1201.5,"body":"say. Things and the grief, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1201.5,"endTime":1208.82,"body":"flows and the space, so that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1201.5,"endTime":1208.82,"body":"kind of witnessed grieving is a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1208.82,"endTime":1210.74,"body":"big part of it in community."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1211.04,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1211.04,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"amazing that you're able to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1213.74,"endTime":1217.1,"body":"create that sort of space."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1213.74,"endTime":1217.1,"body":"Because people feel so"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1217.1,"endTime":1223.48,"body":"embarrassed if they start to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1217.1,"endTime":1223.48,"body":"grieve, you must set the some"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1223.48,"endTime":1228.7,"body":"parameters around allowing, if"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1223.48,"endTime":1228.7,"body":"somebody I do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1228.7,"endTime":1234.58,"body":"a lot of work"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1228.7,"endTime":1234.58,"body":"energetically and just in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1234.58,"endTime":1240.3,"body":"space with family, talking about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1234.58,"endTime":1240.3,"body":"grief, validating it, giving"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1240.3,"endTime":1247.86,"body":"them permission, and then, you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1240.3,"endTime":1247.86,"body":"know, so I'm just picturing a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1247.86,"endTime":1252.18,"body":"family. I sat with two young"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1247.86,"endTime":1252.18,"body":"adult children. The father was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1252.18,"endTime":1256.2,"body":"very close to death and had been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1252.18,"endTime":1256.2,"body":"ill for a long time, and it had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1256.2,"endTime":1260.12,"body":"been one of the experience where"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1256.2,"endTime":1260.12,"body":"he'd, you know, they'd given him"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1260.12,"endTime":1263.78,"body":"a six months, and he'd live 12"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1260.12,"endTime":1263.78,"body":"and then they gave me a two"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1263.78,"endTime":1267.02,"body":"month, and he lived more. He"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1263.78,"endTime":1267.02,"body":"kept out living. And everybody"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1267.02,"endTime":1269.9,"body":"thought, okay, somehow they sort"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1267.02,"endTime":1269.9,"body":"of adjusted the fact that he was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1269.9,"endTime":1272.96,"body":"never actually going to go and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1269.9,"endTime":1272.96,"body":"then he really was. So they'd"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1272.96,"endTime":1280.66,"body":"all been in the fight mode and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1272.96,"endTime":1280.66,"body":"the life mode, and just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1281.74,"endTime":1284.14,"body":"everybody around the coffee"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1281.74,"endTime":1284.14,"body":"table with a pot of tea and a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1284.14,"endTime":1289.42,"body":"cat, and giving them the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1284.14,"endTime":1289.42,"body":"opportunity passing a Talking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1289.42,"endTime":1293.26,"body":"Stick, giving each person an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1289.42,"endTime":1293.26,"body":"opportunity to say, and how is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1293.26,"endTime":1297.88,"body":"it for you? It doesn't need much"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1293.26,"endTime":1297.88,"body":"more than that. The tears flow."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1298.0,"endTime":1303.36,"body":"You just let the stopper out."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1298.0,"endTime":1303.36,"body":"Yeah. And, and when people you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1303.36,"endTime":1306.78,"body":"know, I just want you to know"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1303.36,"endTime":1306.78,"body":"you are the most amazing father"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1306.78,"endTime":1312.36,"body":"I ever could have bought it. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1306.78,"endTime":1312.36,"body":"Father saying, and I know you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1312.36,"endTime":1316.14,"body":"will make good decisions, and I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1312.36,"endTime":1316.14,"body":"trust and you have my support."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1316.32,"endTime":1320.28,"body":"So there are these statements"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1316.32,"endTime":1320.28,"body":"that are made in ritual space."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1320.58,"endTime":1323.36,"body":"It is different than a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1320.58,"endTime":1323.36,"body":"conversation at the dinner"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1323.36,"endTime":1323.72,"body":"table."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1323.78,"endTime":1324.2,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1325.22,"endTime":1326.42,"body":"that's what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1325.22,"endTime":1326.42,"body":"makes it different."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1333.8,"body":"Wow, so much more"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1333.8,"body":"meaningful. Rather than going to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1333.8,"endTime":1338.12,"body":"visit the person you know is is"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1333.8,"endTime":1338.12,"body":"dying and you paste your happy"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1338.12,"endTime":1341.68,"body":"face on and, oh, they're there,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1338.12,"endTime":1341.68,"body":"everything's going to be fine."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1342.52,"endTime":1347.38,"body":"To me that is such a waste of"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1342.52,"endTime":1347.38,"body":"energy and time, rather than"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1347.38,"endTime":1351.82,"body":"having allowing yourself to be"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1347.38,"endTime":1351.82,"body":"vulnerable and having those"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1351.82,"endTime":1355.72,"body":"meaningful conversations,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1351.82,"endTime":1355.72,"body":"because very often that's when"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1355.72,"endTime":1359.68,"body":"you get to know that dad"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1355.72,"endTime":1359.68,"body":"actually loved you, or mum did,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1359.68,"endTime":1364.2,"body":"or somebody, rather than keeping"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1359.68,"endTime":1364.2,"body":"up the pretense that everything"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1364.2,"endTime":1372.3,"body":"is fine, one thing I was curious"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1364.2,"endTime":1372.3,"body":"about as a young nurse, I'm"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1372.3,"endTime":1376.2,"body":"dating myself, on the long"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1372.3,"endTime":1376.2,"body":"Florence Nightingale wards,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1377.16,"endTime":1381.92,"body":"people could get lost and they"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1377.16,"endTime":1381.92,"body":"would just silently die without"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1381.98,"endTime":1386.12,"body":"us alerting the family. And I"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1381.98,"endTime":1386.12,"body":"just used to think this was"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1386.12,"endTime":1390.2,"body":"awful. So when I was going to go"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1386.12,"endTime":1390.2,"body":"back to Britain, I was going to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1390.2,"endTime":1394.34,"body":"potentially going into hospice"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1390.2,"endTime":1394.34,"body":"work. I didn't. I ended up"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1394.34,"endTime":1398.12,"body":"staying here, but I did do a"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1394.34,"endTime":1398.12,"body":"stint of palliative care"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1398.12,"endTime":1403.18,"body":"volunteering, and part of the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1398.12,"endTime":1403.18,"body":"training, we were told that very"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1403.18,"endTime":1407.68,"body":"often, the person who is dying"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1403.18,"endTime":1407.68,"body":"will send the family out of the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1407.68,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"room because the family's grief"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1407.68,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"can actually keep them from"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1414.16,"endTime":1419.26,"body":"leaving. Can is this something"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1414.16,"endTime":1419.26,"body":"you've encountered or Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1420.04,"endTime":1424.32,"body":"I don't know"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1420.04,"endTime":1424.32,"body":"about very often, but certainly"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1429.3,"body":"I think there's an anecdotal"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1429.3,"body":"understanding that everybody"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1429.3,"endTime":1434.7,"body":"needs to go their own way. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1429.3,"endTime":1434.7,"body":"some people want to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1434.7,"endTime":1437.76,"body":"surrounded by friends and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1434.7,"endTime":1437.76,"body":"family. Some people want to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1437.76,"endTime":1439.98,"body":"touched. Other people are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1437.76,"endTime":1439.98,"body":"retreating, and they actually,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1439.98,"endTime":1444.14,"body":"actually don't want to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1439.98,"endTime":1444.14,"body":"touched at the very end, some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1444.14,"endTime":1449.66,"body":"people find it too hard to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1444.14,"endTime":1449.66,"body":"leave. I worked with a client"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1449.66,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"just recently, the grandmother"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1449.66,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"was dying, and she said to her"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1452.72,"endTime":1455.24,"body":"daughter, in the last three"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1452.72,"endTime":1455.24,"body":"days, she said, Please don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1455.24,"endTime":1459.44,"body":"bring my grandchildren anymore."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1455.24,"endTime":1459.44,"body":"It breaks my heart. I cannot see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1459.44,"endTime":1464.38,"body":"them. It's just too much. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1459.44,"endTime":1464.38,"body":"some people can't leave when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1464.38,"endTime":1470.62,"body":"people are there. Some people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1464.38,"endTime":1470.62,"body":"have a sense that the people or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1470.62,"endTime":1474.04,"body":"they they they have a sense that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1470.62,"endTime":1474.04,"body":"their family won't be able to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1474.04,"endTime":1476.14,"body":"handle it, so they'd rather"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1474.04,"endTime":1476.14,"body":"leave when they're not there."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1476.2,"endTime":1480.1,"body":"Okay, sometimes the family is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1476.2,"endTime":1480.1,"body":"grasping and won't let them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1480.1,"endTime":1483.96,"body":"leave. So there are lots and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1480.1,"endTime":1483.96,"body":"lots of different energetic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1483.96,"endTime":1488.4,"body":"dynamics that can be happening."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1483.96,"endTime":1488.4,"body":"But there are lots of stories of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1488.4,"endTime":1492.96,"body":"people who are, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1488.4,"endTime":1492.96,"body":"room is full, 24/7, except for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1492.96,"endTime":1496.38,"body":"115 minute break where someone"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1492.96,"endTime":1496.38,"body":"goes to get coffee and someone"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1496.38,"endTime":1498.78,"body":"goes to the bathroom and someone"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1496.38,"endTime":1498.78,"body":"makes a phone call, and that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1498.78,"endTime":1501.86,"body":"when the person leaves. Yeah, I."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1498.78,"endTime":1501.86,"body":"So it can sometimes be a good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1501.86,"endTime":1505.52,"body":"idea to just make sure you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1501.86,"endTime":1505.52,"body":"there a lot and then just give a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1505.52,"endTime":1507.98,"body":"little bit of empty space. If"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1505.52,"endTime":1507.98,"body":"you think this might be a good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1507.98,"endTime":1514.04,"body":"thing, because people really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1507.98,"endTime":1514.04,"body":"need their own perfect exit"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1514.1,"endTime":1516.56,"body":"scenario, and it may be to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1514.1,"endTime":1516.56,"body":"alone."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1517.4,"endTime":1519.32,"body":"Oh, that's"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1517.4,"endTime":1519.32,"body":"beautiful. Thank you for sharing"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1519.32,"endTime":1524.68,"body":"that. I just find that that can"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1519.32,"endTime":1524.68,"body":"be one of those guilts that,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1525.16,"endTime":1528.82,"body":"especially my clients, will hold"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1525.16,"endTime":1528.82,"body":"on to. I didn't get to say"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1528.82,"endTime":1532.78,"body":"goodbye. I was getting coffee,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1528.82,"endTime":1532.78,"body":"and, of course, the blame and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1532.96,"endTime":1535.18,"body":"all that good stuff. So this was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1535.84,"endTime":1539.92,"body":"that is reason"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1535.84,"endTime":1539.92,"body":"to say goodbye a lot before they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1539.92,"endTime":1540.28,"body":"die."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1540.58,"endTime":1543.66,"body":"Don't that last"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1540.58,"endTime":1543.66,"body":"minute. That's right. That's"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1543.66,"endTime":1546.6,"body":"what I usually bring them back"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1543.66,"endTime":1546.6,"body":"to, because they say I never got"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1546.6,"endTime":1549.84,"body":"to say goodbye. So then I'll"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1546.6,"endTime":1549.84,"body":"bring them back to when was the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1549.84,"endTime":1554.52,"body":"last time you did so when they"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1549.84,"endTime":1554.52,"body":"see, yeah, I do. I do actually"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1554.52,"endTime":1560.6,"body":"say goodbye a lot. It can help."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1554.52,"endTime":1560.6,"body":"Thank you again for creating"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1560.6,"endTime":1564.8,"body":"that awareness, because that is"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1560.6,"endTime":1564.8,"body":"something that we in the West"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1564.8,"endTime":1569.9,"body":"really do need to do a lot more"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1564.8,"endTime":1569.9,"body":"education around, don't we? If"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1569.9,"endTime":1576.08,"body":"you could help parents"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1569.9,"endTime":1576.08,"body":"understand how they can teach"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1576.08,"endTime":1582.1,"body":"their children how to be able to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1576.08,"endTime":1582.1,"body":"be with grief and not be not to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1582.1,"endTime":1584.14,"body":"fear death and dying,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1584.74,"endTime":1587.26,"body":"that's a big"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1584.74,"endTime":1587.26,"body":"question. But of course,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1587.26,"endTime":1591.76,"body":"children learn from how their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1587.26,"endTime":1591.76,"body":"parents act, and if their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1591.76,"endTime":1596.32,"body":"parents are haven't themselves,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1591.76,"endTime":1596.32,"body":"learned how to be with grief,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1596.5,"endTime":1599.98,"body":"how to be present to death, then"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1596.5,"endTime":1599.98,"body":"it's really hard for children to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1599.98,"endTime":1603.84,"body":"learn that. So it's a culturally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1599.98,"endTime":1603.84,"body":"transmitted skill, and we we get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1603.84,"endTime":1607.02,"body":"what we're given. It doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1603.84,"endTime":1607.02,"body":"come in innately with us. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1607.02,"endTime":1609.72,"body":"guess one thing would be really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1607.02,"endTime":1609.72,"body":"encouraging parents to do their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1609.72,"endTime":1614.28,"body":"own grief work and clean up"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1609.72,"endTime":1614.28,"body":"their own house, so that they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1614.28,"endTime":1619.56,"body":"are genuine, genuinely able to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1614.28,"endTime":1619.56,"body":"be present, because then when a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1619.56,"endTime":1622.58,"body":"child is in the space of death,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1619.56,"endTime":1622.58,"body":"then they know there's this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1622.58,"endTime":1625.88,"body":"stable force beside them. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1622.58,"endTime":1625.88,"body":"safe. That's one part, and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1625.88,"endTime":1630.62,"body":"other is to to really model if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1625.88,"endTime":1630.62,"body":"death is normal and that it is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1630.62,"endTime":1635.6,"body":"safe, it's really sad, and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1630.62,"endTime":1635.6,"body":"sad can sometimes feel like it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1635.6,"endTime":1641.32,"body":"going to kill us, but it's it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1635.6,"endTime":1641.32,"body":"emotional pain that needs"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1641.32,"endTime":1646.66,"body":"emotional skills, so all the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1641.32,"endTime":1646.66,"body":"grief and grieving skills are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1646.66,"endTime":1650.98,"body":"what allow us to be with it."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1646.66,"endTime":1650.98,"body":"It's not feel a bit like the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1650.98,"endTime":1654.22,"body":"beginning of the conversation."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1650.98,"endTime":1654.22,"body":"We talked about having a happy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1654.22,"endTime":1658.24,"body":"funeral so we don't be sad."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1654.22,"endTime":1658.24,"body":"Sometimes people think, well, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1658.24,"endTime":1661.92,"body":"won't take my child at this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1658.24,"endTime":1661.92,"body":"funeral, because it'll make them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1661.92,"endTime":1666.78,"body":"sad. Well, the child knows and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1661.92,"endTime":1666.78,"body":"the child feels in the family"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1666.78,"endTime":1670.02,"body":"space, and what children need is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1666.78,"endTime":1670.02,"body":"congruence. They need to know"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1670.02,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"that what I'm feeling and what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1670.02,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"everybody else is talking about,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1673.2,"endTime":1677.76,"body":"what's our public truth, are in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1673.2,"endTime":1677.76,"body":"alignment. If the child is all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1677.76,"endTime":1680.48,"body":"scrambled up inside and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1677.76,"endTime":1680.48,"body":"everybody's smiling, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1680.48,"endTime":1683.72,"body":"make the child happy, it makes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1680.48,"endTime":1683.72,"body":"the child confused, yeah, and so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1683.78,"endTime":1687.8,"body":"children just need to know this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1683.78,"endTime":1687.8,"body":"is what it is. It's not scary."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1687.8,"endTime":1692.36,"body":"It's not dangerous. You know, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1687.8,"endTime":1692.36,"body":"did a funeral, and there were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1692.84,"endTime":1696.98,"body":"little nieces and nephews of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1692.84,"endTime":1696.98,"body":"this young man, and we had the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1697.04,"endTime":1699.56,"body":"ceremony, and the ashes were at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1697.04,"endTime":1699.56,"body":"the front and a table and an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1699.56,"endTime":1701.98,"body":"urn, and then we did their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1699.56,"endTime":1701.98,"body":"section in the same area further"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1702.04,"endTime":1704.68,"body":"towards the back of the room."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1702.04,"endTime":1704.68,"body":"And everybody was back drinking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1704.68,"endTime":1708.22,"body":"coffee and eating sandwiches and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1704.68,"endTime":1708.22,"body":"and I looked up and there were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1708.22,"endTime":1712.84,"body":"three, probably 12 year olds up"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1708.22,"endTime":1712.84,"body":"at the urn, and they had lifted"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1712.84,"endTime":1716.86,"body":"it up, and they were walking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1712.84,"endTime":1716.86,"body":"inside. And so I walked up, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1716.86,"endTime":1720.48,"body":"I said, that's that's what it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1716.86,"endTime":1720.48,"body":"is. And they first, they were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1720.48,"endTime":1723.12,"body":"shocked and scared. I said,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1720.48,"endTime":1723.12,"body":"Well, you know, this is ashes."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1723.12,"endTime":1725.94,"body":"This is what ashes are, lifted"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1723.12,"endTime":1725.94,"body":"up. See, feel how heavy it is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1725.94,"endTime":1729.54,"body":"and and you can see, and you can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1725.94,"endTime":1729.54,"body":"see what it is. And they, they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1729.54,"endTime":1732.18,"body":"just sort of, they were curious,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1729.54,"endTime":1732.18,"body":"and they wanted to know, yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1732.18,"endTime":1736.26,"body":"And we made it really normal and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1732.18,"endTime":1736.26,"body":"easy to answer the question. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1736.26,"endTime":1738.18,"body":"then they were like, Okay. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1736.26,"endTime":1738.18,"body":"off they went. They"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1738.18,"endTime":1741.8,"body":"were quiet, yeah."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1738.18,"endTime":1741.8,"body":"Rather than, Oh, don't touch"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1741.8,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"that being scared yourself that"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1741.8,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"this wasn't the right thing to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1753.8,"body":"be doing. Would you like to see"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1753.8,"body":"education around death more in"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1753.8,"endTime":1757.64,"body":"the schools? Do you think that"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1753.8,"endTime":1757.64,"body":"has a place for it?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1758.36,"endTime":1760.6,"body":"I think we need,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1758.36,"endTime":1760.6,"body":"as I say, it's culturally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1760.6,"endTime":1763.6,"body":"transmitted skill, and so we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1760.6,"endTime":1763.6,"body":"need to transmit it everywhere."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1763.6,"endTime":1767.08,"body":"We transmit our cultural"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1763.6,"endTime":1767.08,"body":"patterns. So yes, in schools,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1767.14,"endTime":1772.24,"body":"with families, in institutions,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1767.14,"endTime":1772.24,"body":"politically, socially and how we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1772.24,"endTime":1776.14,"body":"have community ceremonies. In"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1772.24,"endTime":1776.14,"body":"Calgary, we have a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1776.14,"endTime":1779.08,"body":"ceremony on the solstice which"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1776.14,"endTime":1779.08,"body":"is coming on the equinox, sorry,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1779.08,"endTime":1782.04,"body":"the Fall Equinox which is coming"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1779.08,"endTime":1782.04,"body":"up. It's a big arts and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1782.04,"endTime":1786.12,"body":"remembrance festival and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1782.04,"endTime":1786.12,"body":"cemetery. So we need to, we need"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1786.12,"endTime":1792.18,"body":"to have it be as much part of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1786.12,"endTime":1792.18,"body":"how we live our lives well and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1793.62,"endTime":1797.16,"body":"communicating well. So we need"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1793.62,"endTime":1797.16,"body":"to teach it in all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1797.16,"endTime":1797.88,"body":"places,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1798.48,"endTime":1801.5,"body":"have it more a"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1798.48,"endTime":1801.5,"body":"kid. Action Table Talk, rather"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1801.5,"endTime":1807.38,"body":"than it be talked about when the"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1801.5,"endTime":1807.38,"body":"event has happened? Absolutely,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1808.16,"endTime":1812.12,"body":"yeah, my children, actually,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1808.16,"endTime":1812.12,"body":"they don't, but they will time"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1812.12,"endTime":1818.9,"body":"me. When is she going to start"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1812.12,"endTime":1818.9,"body":"on the death talk again? So we"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1818.9,"endTime":1823.36,"body":"have fun with it. Sarah, this"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1818.9,"endTime":1823.36,"body":"has been absolutely delightful."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1823.36,"endTime":1825.82,"body":"I'm conscious of your time here"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1823.36,"endTime":1825.82,"body":"because I know you've got"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1825.82,"endTime":1830.5,"body":"another pressing engagement."},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1825.82,"endTime":1830.5,"body":"This was delightful. I do hope"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1830.56,"endTime":1835.3,"body":"we can have another conversation"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1830.56,"endTime":1835.3,"body":"again at some point, and I wish"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1835.3,"endTime":1839.74,"body":"you all the best out in Calgary,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1835.3,"endTime":1839.74,"body":"and let's see what we can do to"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1839.74,"endTime":1843.24,"body":"make more or create more"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1839.74,"endTime":1843.24,"body":"awareness around death and"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1843.24,"endTime":1845.88,"body":"dying. Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1843.24,"endTime":1845.88,"body":"being with us."},{"speaker":"Dr. Sarah Kerr","startTime":1846.18,"endTime":1847.08,"body":"Thanks, Anne,"},{"speaker":"Anne DeButte","startTime":1847.38,"endTime":1848.04,"body":"bye, bye bye."}]}