Grief in the Workplace What Business & Leaders Need to Know

There have been so many deaths and losses during this Covid time, while many are grieving their morning commute and the disruptions of their familiar routines.  
 
There are others who have lost loved ones and struggle with unattended grief because they didn't get an opportunity for final goodbyes nor have any support during that difficult period.  
 
 During difficult times like this, it's important not just as individuals but also as communities and workplaces to come together.  There has been so much death and loss which means everyone needs some kindness and a listening ear.  It's time to connect to one another through our humanity & certainly workplaces can help.
 
 The best way to help a grieving person is by being there for them.  For  Businesses and Leaders, it's important that they recognize and value their employees and be understanding towards their needs during difficult times so they can get back on track with being productive. 

Here's how you can reach Melissa 

www.wholepersonconversations.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadouaire

You don't have to grieve alone, as a coach I can help support you. To discover how grief coaching can help you please book a FREE call with me

To access your FREE resource 12 Ways to Heal https://www.understandinggrief.com
Connect with me:

Website: https://www.understandinggrief.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annedebutte
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/reconnectfromgrief

Transcript

Anne DeButte: 0:06

Hello, and welcome listeners to our interview in the Let's Talk About Grief podcast. I'm Anne DeButte, your host and author of Grief's Abyss, today we're going to be talking about Grief in the Workplace. I'm being beyond thrilled to have as my guest today Melissa Douaire, welcome, Melissa, would you like to share a little bit about yourself?

Melissa Douaire: 0:28

Sure, well, I'm evolving, that's for sure on this grief journey. I was brought into it with the death of my mother 15 years ago. And because the grieving community was three hours from my hometown, I felt this intense isolation as a young mother with three children and not in the community of her friends that were also grieving her. And that evolved into a Lay Ministry, and then eventually as an Ordained Minister. This past year, I've moved to Boulder, Colorado, from outside of the Chicago area to Boulder, and the churches here are well cared for. So there's no room at the inn, if you will, in terms of ministry positions, but given our pandemic situation, it just kept coming to me that there's so much grief that needs to be attended to whether it's death related or not, which we know, there's just millions of people in active grief right now, around the world, but also with the losses that we're all experiencing, right, this collective grief, of normalcy, that we've come to know. And it's been completely interrupted, from just the loss of commute going to the office and having our quiet time in our coffee. Right, that is something that's just disrupted the rhythm of our lives. And then of course, you know, the horrible, unintended grief of losing someone and the lack of ritual that's been available. The the lack of opportunities for Goodbye, and the increased social and emotional isolation that's been happening. So we're in it, we're in it up to our hips, I think. And so it's, you know, I'm so grateful for someone like yourself, who's trying to normalize and lift this conversation and say, we are all in this together. And I know that's become cliche, but really just connecting to one another through our humanity.

Anne DeButte: 2:28

Absolutely. I always like to ask my guests a little bit about themselves, because it's amazing how many of us have come to our current new jobs, passions, legacy, whatever you like to call it, because they themselves have experienced a loss?

Melissa Douaire: 2:46

Well, I think it's what I've noticed, for some of us who have been brought into this grief conversation, it was because we had a complicated grief or you felt isolated through it, and we just don't want anybody to ever feel that way again. The things that would have helped us are really so simple. And within the capacity of everyone, right, we can all be sort of ministering, and caring for one another through grief. It's not rocket science, but it is compassion. It is empathy. It is sort of recognizing our own discomfort with grief, and climbing over that hurdle, which I think is the barrier that keeps people from from reaching out to those who are grieving.

Anne DeButte: 3:27

Yeah, that is huge, isn't it? What do you think might be behind that? That discomfort?

Melissa Douaire: 3:36

I often think it's two things. One, it's the past experiences that people have had with grief, given their childhood, and their experiences of perhaps not talking about it not being allowed to emote and move forward. The other thing, I think, is that people feel like somehow, they have to fix it. And there's no fix, right? There's no magic wand, we can't make something better. So we just avoid it. And I think that's, that's kind of problematic. And I'll add one more thing. I also think that people feel like if they're talking to someone who is grieving a death, that they'll make them sad if they bring up the loss of that person. And for those of us who are grieving that loss is always on our mind, so you'll never make us more sad. You know, I want to grant permission. It's like, yes, please talk about our loved ones because they're still so present in our minds and our hearts.

Anne DeButte: 4:34

For sure just because they've died. It doesn't mean that you forget about them. And it's okay. It's actually healing if somebody does mention the person's name. It's like, oh, wow, somebody cares enough to remember my loved ones name. Then it's even more special when they ask you for your favorite story its so much more than "I'm sorry for your loss" and then they'll move on. And you're right so many people, I think, just don't even want to go there. Because if they see somebody crying, and they break down, that adds a whole other level of discomfort, wouldn't you say?

Melissa Douaire: 5:19

Oh, absolutely. I think there's lots of people that are walking around with their unresolved grief. And they're just afraid that having this conversation with someone else will crack the door open. You know, take the fingers out of the dam, they'll be flooded? Right, that they don't want to be awash in all that emotion.

Anne DeButte: 5:38

Yes, its the emotional component? Because we've never been taught how to be with our emotions? Or is it? That fear of not wanting to get involved not wanting to pry? There's a number of nuances, I would say. there are so many nuances to it right?

Melissa Douaire: 5:57

There's so many nuances to it, right? That's probably someone's great dissertation. But I think that culturally here in the States, and I won't speak for the Canadians, but I will for some of the Americans. We've been sold on the fountain of youth and are chronically sipping from it right? All of our advertising, all of our promotion and marketing is about denying the aging process and being "Forever Young," of course mortality is not something we talk about. I don't know why because it will impact 100% of us, right? We go to great pains for sexual education and talking about the birds and the bees and how babies are made. But we don't talk about what happens when babies grow up and get old and then they pass away. We just have an inhibition to that which is unfortunate. I've read som books about how the medical pro ession has come to it. We've got en so removed from the pro ess of death where a few dec des ago even in the in the 50s people were at home and they wou d have the wakes and the me orials in their home, right. So there was there was a corpse in their living room and ext nded family and friends were all gathered around. But we have got en so removed from sort of the hands on of the dying proc ss. I think we're just comp etely squeamish and been so ster lized right and we even see this in the medical language. We don' talk about death someone has xpired or passed away we have all these colloquialisms. So t ere's so many different reas ns and ways that we've been remo ed from it from the phys cality from the emot onality and the spir tuality of what that really mean.

Anne DeButte: 7:49

So it sounds as if we're just not educating the next generation on how to even be with griefs. Unless until we do, we're just perpetuating the very clinical and sterile world of death. As you mentioned, I could talk about this as you can. But I brought you on here to talk about Grief in the Workplace. We're getting to it. How has your work has changed since COVID and the dual model, because some people may still be at work. Some offices and buildings have been totally closed down. People are working from home, it has to be very difficult for leaders and business owners these days. How do you navigate all that?

Melissa Douaire: 8:38

Well I started this process in this project and this, you know, small venture coming in through the side door, because people don't want to talk about their own mortality. But if they can be helpful to someone else, I think they're they're called to that. So initially, I started out by reaching out to the counseling department at the community college and saying, you know, I'd really love to help your faculty understand what their students are going through with this pandemic. I'm guessing that many of them have not experienced the death of a loved one before. And that will directly impact their ability to be good students and to thrive. And so what does that look like? And because we know there's this cultural version to the conversation, how are you going to do this? How are you going to be an impactful teacher when you have students who are grieving? Right, and I think there's a parallel how are you going to be an impactful manager or employer when you have employees that are grieving? So I think really, it's about helping people understand what grief is right? The Anatomy of Grief is going to look like this. And it's going to have I know this is a thing for you use Anatomy as well. Understanding what the feelings and the symptoms and the behaviors are, right. So just the most common right it all come it all manifests differently for everyone. But it's very common that sleep is interrupted. Nutrition is interrupted. The ability to concentrate and focus is interrupted. There's an irritability that comes, there's a despondency and a distraction. So all of these things kind of take us into this other world that impede us from being productive, right? just naming those symptoms and helping people say, you might be feeling like this. And so let's talk about it. And I'm here for you to hold this safe, confidential space. And there's no judgment in this. And this is about helping people be effective leaders and listeners, and what that looks like, right? You don't have to have an answer. You don't have to solve the problem. You just have to hold the space. And when people have that ability in that freedom, to name, what is weighing on their hearts in one hour's time, it's magical, how you can see people's spirits lifted, right? Because there's something about us that wants to be heard, and have our pain witnessed and have someone else as you're doing with me and had their head? Yes. Yes, what you're feeling is normal. And this is so wonderful that you're able to articulate it. And sometimes we need to give people the words to articulate right, because they're distracted and foggy brained. So when you offer them some words, they're like, yes, yes. And the validation that comes with that is really, really amazing. And so to have a manager, or a teacher, recognize that with you, and honor it, and say, I see you and I'm here for you is just about all any of us need, you know, there's a there's a small percentage, maybe 25% will have a complicated grief situation based on the person that they lost. And what we know is complicated relationships make for complicated grief. So depending on what the relationship with the deceased is, is going to impact whether or not you need clinical help with a psychotherapist, because grief magnifies whatever is just below the surface. There's something about it, how it comes bursting through. Has that been your experience as well?

Anne DeButte: 12:19

Oh, absolutely. Yes. People sort of say they can't wait to get back to the new normal, which is a lot of you hear that word now. But what did that new normal look like before the death? Were they severely depressed before this event? How did they handle challenges? Absolutely. It's almost as if the grief itself can crack you open. And everything kind of spills out for you to sort of sift and sort through?

Melissa Douaire: 12:52

Absolutely, because the energy that's holding those issues below the surface you no longer have because grief, grief demands it right. So everything just comes out through the cracks. And that's when it's complicated. That's when you need help to sort through that. So many emotions.

Anne DeButte: 13:12

With COVID, I can only imagine leaders have had so many different things on their plate passed down and what they have to do. And when they hear I'd like you to go on a seminar, I'd like you to talk to this person about how you can help your team on grief. I'm sure they sort of go I can't take on another thing. How do you handle the resistance that may come up from them?

Melissa Douaire: 13:39

Well, there there is a, there can be a resistance depending on the comfort level. So I'm looking for value based leaders who say, I can't afford not to do this, okay, you can't afford not to take care of my employees. They're my greatest asset. And pre pandemic, we have a statistic that says that $75 billion was lost in productivity due to grief and grief related life issues like divorce or transfers or you know, illness, those types of things. So there is a quantifiable bottom line for companies to attend to this. Because if you're not getting that employee that you hired in their most proficient, effective, productive, creative mind, because of the grief, then what are you doing, you're not using your asset. That's you know, so I would love for companies to do this, you know altruistically because it's the right thing to do and meet their employees at their humanity. But if you can't get there that way, this impacts your bottom line. There's just no doubt about it. Right. You need your employees to come to work well rested, well hydrated, able to articulate not foggy brained and not irritable and not putting out fires all in their personal life. You need them to be centered, capable and what we know is initially the impacts of grief do not allow for that. So we got to give them space to emote, and it's not going to be the three day leave that so many of us have to plan a funeral, go to a funeral and then travel home like, okay, you haven't even started the grief process at that. But according to companies, they're finished with you. Exactly. supposed to come back and and jump back in and it just doesn't happen.

Anne DeButte: 15:25

It certainly doesn't. What in your experience, have you seen, if companies don't acknowledge, and they allow the grief to continue?

Melissa Douaire: 15:37

Well I think that's where we still are. But what we're seeing is elevated incidents of anxiety, elevated depression, despondency, and then they're also battling different things. There's been some great reports on the increase of Substance Abuse and Alcoholism. So unattended grief, you can bury it and throw it under the carpet, but I'm promising you well, while your grief is under the carpet, it's growing teeth, and it will come back and it will bite you, when you least expect it at the most inopportune time. There are other levels of stress that are happening, and unresolved grief will come back and manifest. And I think that people are seeing that. And so we have all these wellness kind of programs that are treating the symptom, but not the cause. Right? It's like, oh, drink your smoothie. And here's your free apple and salad bar and whatever. Well, that doesn't matter if you can't eat because you're grieving. You know, you're supposed to join the gym and work out, well, that doesn't matter. If you haven't slept all night, right? You're not going to go to the gym to workout. So we're throwing a lot of great resources at people, but they have to be healthy enough to use them. So one of the large corporations that I'm working with right now, we're talking about the matrix, right? Because initially, when I came to the company, they're like, No, we take care of this stuff. I don't, you know, I'll talk to you. But I don't know where you're going to fit in. Because we have resources, we have an EAP program for people and I just, we got it covered? Well, it turns out, people aren't using the EAP program, because it's a 1- 800 number, and they can't get through to therapists and service providers, or they're out of network. And they're not using the other resources for all the aforementioned reasons. And so it's like, oh, wait, you might be on to something. If you offer all the benefits, but if they're not being taken advantage of you're you're not ahead of the game.

Anne DeButte: 17:31

Yeah, so by having or thinking they've got a wellness program and the employee assistance program, they think that set, I don't really need to do anymore. And if somebody grieving comes to my door, I'll just tell them to go and and call that number. But you're right. So many people, I've heard say, that doesn't work. Or if I get an appointment, I forgotten why I needed the appointment, you know, they sort of moved on. They need it there in that moment. So you go in, and you help them see that there's

Melissa Douaire: 18:01

Yes. an initial problem with grief then, what do you do? Do you have seminars? Do you sit and talk to the manager about what to sort of expect? Well, so this is sort of evolving, right? It's like what getting the right leader to listen. So where we are now is it will be a webinar just sort of on grief and the Anatomy of Grief and understanding that whether it's death related, or non death related, the symptoms are sort of the same. Then helping people identify with that as employees, right, and then sort of moving. Ideally, I'd love to be working with the managers and saying, this is how you hold these compassionate conversations, where you can attend to people. And I think people are nervous about the boundary between work and life and getting too personal, like, you can be compassionate without prying. Yes, you can hear somebody, and you can give them space and you can attend to that hurt. Without saying you have to tell me everything that's going on about that death or that divorce, right? I don't need the details. But I need to know as a manager, that's where your head and your heart are right now so I can accommodate you in some way. It's like, you know, what, how about you take this half day off. But this day, I'm going to really need you to click in this is the day I need you. And so we can manage those expectations of what that's going to look like, right? We can pull it together for certain events or presentations or whatever. But also know that underneath there's a breaking point that's closer to the surface than usual. So getting getting managers and really even employees to effectively listen to one another. I think would just changed the culture in so many institutions where we teach people how to hold that space for someone who is going through something.

Anne DeButte: 19:56

You just mentioned one suggestion that they may take time off now, but then I need you to be on. What if they have had a really difficult time getting to sleep? Do you suggest perhaps having a buddy system that would kind of take over?

Melissa Douaire: 20:13

That probably depends on the task? Is it something that you have a partner and a

Anne DeButte: 20:16

Right? team that you're developing with? You know, I can't get to that specifically. But yes, I think that's a great idea if that fits the culture? And depending, are we talking about a company that's 20,000 people, or we're talking about a company that's 20? People, right? It just, it depends. But I think there's all different ways to sort of pilot different programs within that organization. If it's 20 people, I can talk to all of them and give them the same skill set at the same time. And they know what's happening, right versus 20,000 people. It almost needs to be a vertical type of channel where you could train people that our go to people in moments of crisis. How difficult has it been for you to navigate that path with people working from home and offices closed?

Melissa Douaire: 21:06

Good news, bad news, right? We have zoom. And for all of the disdain toward it, it also has offered, I think, an enormous amount of flexibility to reach out to people in other countries such as yourself, right. That we would maybe not have had this connection, pre pandemic, because we wouldn't have been doing our LinkedIn and our connecting and our conversations as readily. And as easily. One of the things I have heard in workplaces is that there's sort of grieving the work life separation, that those boundaries have been melded. And, and so how do we stop? And reframe, right? Because boundaries are broken only if we allow them to be? So where do we build in those types of things? I think that's one of the non death, grief issues that people are talking about their loss of the delineation between work, and life and how that comes. And again, it needs to be leaders at the top giving permission to say, you don't have to answer phone calls after 6pm. Right there is there's a shutdown time unless there's something hyper crucial, but let's get real about what's so important that it can't wait till tomorrow. I think there's also that culture of Oh, I'm sending an email at

2: 22:22

30am. Because I'm so busy, and I'm so important. It's like, well, as a manager, if I see emails coming out at 2:30 and

4: 22:29

30, these odd hours of the morning, and that's more than a one off, I'm going to be worried that you're not sleeping. Yes, yeah. And that is indicative of a few other issues, right? And I'm going to be like, so I'm seeing these emails coming. You know, are you having trouble sleeping? Is there something on your mind? You know, where's the stress load What's happening here? Because I'd really love for you to be well rested and well cared for.

Anne DeButte: 22:56

So that would be a trigger for a manager to question if they weren't even aware that there may be grief going on. And they're struggling so that they are just motoring through trying to keep up.

Melissa Douaire: 23:09

Right think about all the things that that could mean, like that might be the only quiet time that they work in the house, because they have, you know, kids everywhere playng. but find out, right, care. And it's like, Okay, if that's the situation, is there a problem we can resolve? Or is it something that someone else needs to attend to. I'm not asking managers to turn into psychotherapists. That's how I'm asking them to care about the well being and just see their employees, as people, notrobots that can just keep cranking endlessly. None of us leave our humanity at the doorstep of our jobs, right? We take on a professional persona, but we're still people underneath that job title.

Anne DeButte: 23:56

Absolutely, even though we now work at home. So the two of them have kind of intertwined. There once was in the good old days, probably about 15 years ago, and it may still be the culture where management thought you leave your home life at the door and you put on your work life hat and you're here to work. They don't even want to know anything personal. What are the issues that that kind of attitude? Because I think there's still some places that's the value and the belief system.

Melissa Douaire: 24:34

I think think that there's still companies that exist that way. But I think the culture is changing because what I'm hearing is employee retention and engagement is a huge factor. And now you're competing with companies and particularly like these young millennials that are starting companies and entrepreneurs and they're saying work from home. Out here in Colorado, if it's a powder day, everybody out, like that's one of the benefits That says like, when there's four inches of powder in the forecast, everybody heads to the hills. And that's team building, right? I'll meet you at the bottom of whatever lift. Because you need to work to live not live to work. And so depending on that culture, and again, it can be quantified, happier employees are more effective employees. And so we're seeing that this is a retention issue. And if you treat employees poorly, they will leave, and particularly in this job market, and the other thing that's coming up through this new re entry process, and you've probably been reading about this as well, it's their attention. People are like, you know, what, if you're going to make me come into the office everyday, I'm going to find another job. Because for some people being at home has been very difficult. But for other people, it's been wonderful. They go to the basement or in their office for three hours, and they come up and they have lunch with their kids, then they go for a bike ride, then they go back down to the office, and then they're grilling at six o'clock. rRght, like the freedom and the quality of life has gone through the roof. And they are just not going to go back to the corporate grind. We're just talking to a friend yesterday who is with a large bank in Chicago, and they are going to go to a hybrid model. But the CEO of the company said, we have a civic responsibility, which I thought was really interesting, a civic responsibility to maintain our office space and our community within the community of Chicago, because of all of the jobs that are tied and dependent to people coming into work.

Anne DeButte: 26:38

Yeah,

Melissa Douaire: 26:38

I thought that was a really fascinating take. There are people that depend on that office being occupied. But I just get I'll ever be 100% the way that it was, because we found out that that's not how life works.

Anne DeButte: 26:57

Why spend two hours on the freeway when you can just go upstairs? So I can see the appeal there. You have mentioned that compassion, compassionate leaders and having value that show that you care for others humanity? Can compassion be learnt? Or is it something we naturally have?

Melissa Douaire: 27:19

I hope it can be learned, or we're in trouble. I wonder why, you know, what inhibits people from being compassionate. But yes, I believe that we're all brought into this world through a loving God, love, spirit, energy, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't particularly matter to me, but inherently we have a love in us. That's the light. That's our soul. And somehow there's circumstances that change that where people are less compassionate because of their experiences. But I think those are walls that can be broken down a be rebuilt. That's that's my hope for humanity. I just, I believe that we're inherently good and loving people.

Anne DeButte: 28:02

So with the right skills, anybody, right?

Melissa Douaire: 28:05

Yes. And you know, why don't people listen to one another? It's like, sometimes, no one listened to me or, you know, I didn't have that help. You know, I sucked it up. I can do it. Why can't they do it? Right. But there's just different circumstances. And I think particularly these young people who are in college and high school and have had so many different griefs throughout their life. The pandemic being one, but they're also the students of massive shootings in schools right there, the 911 babies, they will be different people than the previous workforces?

Anne DeButte: 28:39

Yes.

Melissa Douaire: 28:40

And we have to recognize that they will need to be held tenderly and compassionately within the workforce. It's just a fact of life, we're not getting the same kind of people there. They're different, they'll be forever changed by this experience. I think we can all think things that will be changed within ourselves, but particularly these young people. And I think workplaces are going to have to figure out how to accommodate sort of that emotional need that that they're bringing to it.

Anne DeButte: 29:08

So it's understanding what's behind the younger generation, for sure. What should an employee do if he sees an employee is struggling?

Melissa Douaire: 29:18

I think it's as simple as a conversation saying, I see you, are you okay? And if not, let's let's talk. Take the 10 minutes or the 15 minutes. And then if there's ways to follow through follow through. This is really as simple as seeing and witnessing the pain in one another and addressing the humanity. It doesn't matter if it's the highest guy on the corporate ladder, or the lowest rung, we are absolutely all people and we need to recognize that.

Anne DeButte: 29:51

Yeah, I just want to cycle back we were talking about leaders who are fairly high up in the corporate world, and when they are experiencing a loss. But there's a certain culture around an expectation around that person. How can we help them break through their resistance to even talk about what is going on there? Or is this?

Melissa Douaire: 30:17

I don't, I don't think I'm the first person, right that I'm not the Pioneer on on this. There's lots of statistics, I was just reading a research paper that came out with Deloitte, right, a huge global company and recognizing vulnerability, and how leadership must embrace that. Right? So you have as a, as a top leader, you have to recognize your own frailties and humanity, and also those of others. And if you're in charge of modeling, and shaping the culture, then you need to walk the walk. And we know that there's leaders out there that do that, and the companies thrive. And there's leaders who don't do that, and they don't thrive. I mean, you can you can learn these corporations up next to one another and see who's performing and those that have the most compassion within, right, woven within their cultures. Are the companies that are thriving.

Anne DeButte: 31:17

Okay

Melissa Douaire: 31:17

You know it seems like, Oh, we don't have the time to do that, right. We don't have the time for this soft skills. I think it's the word that they're using. It's like, I would argue you don't have the time not to, or you're going to lose your employees, you're going to lose your greatest assets, right? This is an investment in the employees that carry the company. You're all on the same team here. You shouldn't be butting heads, you should be working together.

Anne DeButte: 31:46

To help one another. I've certainly hear that those that have a caring environment, and have a boss that cares about or shows that they care. Those are probably the most loyal people you're going to get. Because as you say, people need to be seen, feel appreciated, feel heard. So thank you for bringing that out. It's not just an HR policy, it's it goes to the very top doesn't it to set the stage.

Melissa Douaire: 32:19

Not only is it at the very top, but it's the very bottom right, it should be organic, in a culture, right? It's both ends and this needs to be a priority that that happens. And I think we've talked before about when you're grieving something going through a loss, whether it's a divorce, or a death of a parent, or God forbid a child, one of the things I've heard so many people talk about is the people they thought were going to be there for them, abandon them. And that's a whole nother loss, right is like a betrayal. And the people who are there who have experienced a loss and pay it forward and come to those people that are hurting. You never, ever forget the people that were there for you.

Anne DeButte: 33:09

That's true.

Melissa Douaire: 33:11

And it does not need to be elaborate. It can be somebody catching you at the grocery store, when you're having your ugly cry, and helping you with the groceries to the trunk, right? It's just that simple. This is not, you don't need to go through endless training courses, you just need to be kind, that random act of kindness, right and not shy away from it. This is something that we can all do. This is something within the scope of every single person's being. And they will feel better for it right reaching out and lifting that person up. And the person that they help out will never ever forget that kind gesture.

Anne DeButte: 33:53

That's true. That's true. It really is very simple. It's something that doesn't sound as if it has to cost organizations, millions to put anything in place. Just invest some time to teach the right people how to be with somebody in grief. That can help their bottom line and their retention. So much more. This has been a rich conversation. I'm sure we could go on for another hour. Is there anything you would like to leave the listeners with Melissa?

Melissa Douaire: 34:31

I think that sums it up. Attending to someone's grief or loss is as simple as saying, I see you. here's a safe space, sit down and listen. And this isn't about you needing to solve the problem, or you needing to share your deepest darkest secret or you sharing your greatest loss. It's just about holding that space in that moment and processing through it. And this is something that every single one of us can do, whether we're at work, or we're at the playground or at the grocery store. But I think when we see the other people in darkness, and we walk beside them that that will both end up walking toward, toward the light of healing. And it's just a really beautiful thing to see and it's a win win. Right? And that's what we're always looking for.

Anne DeButte: 35:26

Thank you so much for giving those those last words very wise. If people are interested in contacting you, how can they do so?

Melissa Douaire: 35:36

I can be found on Linkedin at Melissa Douaire. I have a website called whole person conversations www.wholepersonconversations. I am available for non clinical individual work, I want to emphasize that, that it is a conversation and not a diagnostic therapy. And also, I've been working with organizations, schools and businesses to help managers get comfortable with that empathetic and compassionate listening that we were talking about.

Anne DeButte: 36:21

So needed, and thank you so much for doing what you do. And hopefully we can create a movement so we can get more people comfortable with the topic that we've been discussing today. Thank you so much for joining me, Melissa. I've totally enjoyed our time together. So listeners, that's a wrap, as I like to say, and next time, my guest is going to be Megan Hillukka who is a grief coach, who helps other mums after the loss of their baby. She'll be speaking about how you can live instead of suffering with grief. So please be sure to follow me so that you'll know when this new episode is posted. And if you feel up to it, I'd love you to leave a comment as I enjoy reading these because the podcast truly is a labor of love. And I think that comes through with each guest that is here on the show with me. So until next time, listeners bye bye for now.